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MZAkir2xTheTapHJADSam I YamTermiTlenitOutcome
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WatervallyBan. Really strong, unpredictable, amazing pivoting, unreliable to defensively switch into aside from Pyuku, basically same as all our other valliesBan. I am hoping to revisit the Silvallys once the next DLC finally filters down our way, but for now the same problems remain. While it is more manageable than it was in the past, a good portion of that is due to the general lack of silvallys and not having to roll the dice at team preview. So I am hoping that with the last DLC drop the power level of the format will be high enough that we can finally revisit these mons in earnest. Or maybe the meta will slow down a ton next month and then we can do it then! Every month is different :|Ban. I think while we do have a reasonable number of offensive checks, Gourg-Small, Boltund, Morpeko, etc., building for this reliably and checking it defensively isn't feasible with current constraints on building due to WaterVally's variability in sets - countering it reliably implies that you've got answers to Special / Mixed / Physical sets, as well as a way to RKO it at +1 Spe, which doesn't leave a lot of room in builds for beating the meta's other threats. It's basically the same problem that we've had with other Silvally forms.ban, freest ban ever in the history of PU. Just behind the logic of banning weaker vally forms, it gives us the justification for banning this. But taking in to account the actual practical capability, it goes even further beyond that argument. sd and work up sets are impossible to both check simultaneously, and a 120 bp water physical stab just generally with ice beam coverage comes off as particularly stupid in a meta where our main waterchecks are stuff like geist and tangela. again, freest ban in history.Ban. This thing fucks up all kinds of traditional builds by easily circumventing traditional water checks like tangrowth and gourgiest by making use of work up sets. Its overall bulk paired with broken multi attack allows this mon to almost always force atleast 2 kills.ban. clearly better than like half of the vally formes that are in publ so for the sake of consistency it only makes sense, and also this thing is very obviously broken. mixed and special work up sets are viable, as are sd sets, and they don't have much overlap in the way of counters and are difficult to sniff out so playing against this thing is a big guessing gamednb. Can be checked defensively and offensively. 4mss and tbf, need to be proven it actually being broken first. Now only Procopius has offered replays to show whats up. As far I have been using Silv. Water, its been manageable.Banned
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BouffalantDo not ban. Sorta went back and forth but this feels much more like something that's good at trading and crippling than a real offensive threat. Band and SubSD are not super reliable or high octane impossible to counter on their own, my biggest annoyance was more spreading Toxic which didn't feel like too much of an issue yetNo ban. I spent a lot of time working with this mon and while it is very good, it is more threatening on paper. The additional benefit of an another good Grass check is also very appreciated, so honestly Bouffalant adds a decent amount to the tier. Would not be surprised to see this again though.No ban. Bouffalant is arguably a top tier threat, as it has amazing coverage, good bulk, and a bunch of cool sets: AV, Sub or Taunt+SD, CB, SD+3 attacks, Taunt+Toxic to make Gourg-XL's life hell, etc. But, it's slow enough enough that I don't see the need to ban because at worst, it's going to trade with you and be RKOed afterward. On the other hand, it provides us with another strong answer to Lilligant that isn't ruined by max number of sleep turns. I think over time, people will make more efforts in adapting to Bouffalant, ex. potential meta changes like Throh with more Speed, Foul Play Gourgeist-XL, Toxic Tangela, etc., so this is fine to keep for now.ban, i had a bit more of a struggle debating whether this was the right outcome. from a building perspective, its impossible to check thoroughly. Common normal checks like geist, drifblim and i guess we can include mawile will struggle to take down its subs and then between throat chop and stab, it will decimate those cores. no need to describe what would happen to the stunfisk / tangela style of teams lol. Other sets can be subtoxic, which i feel would play almost like a current meta klinklang, or assault vest which is good but probably not broken. I reasonable argument to keep this in the tier would be we need lilli / grass checks, but in this things case i dont think its worth keeping it for the absolute mayhem it would cause vs an already struggling balance archetype.No ban. Band is difficult to use and is often a liability early game when all mons are alive. There’s a ghost, a steel and a fighting on almost every team and cant click buttons the way it wants to. I want to keep an eye on this mon because I think sub SD sets could definitely get out of hand in the future.abstain. have not had the opportunity to use this mon and haven't really seen it in action either so i simply don't know where i stand on thisdnb. Top tier threat. Would offer a fair shot to itself proof its manageable. Havent seen any ban worthy replays. Will reconcider after its been provided being broken in action.Not Banned
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KlinklangBan. I'm just fed up with this thing, it has so few defensive stops and such inconsistent offensive checks that it puts more pressure at the builder than anything else. It's constrictive in all the wrong ways, long term it can and will easily break through every one of the checks people list. It's so easy to see/play with it and abuse the hell out of things like Stunfisk and Golduck. Turn by turn gameplay almost always favors the Klinklang user because of how threatening it is and it's impossible to say that the better player tends to win with this running aroundNo ban. An extremely difficult call that I really hope I don't regret, but I'm of the opinion that banning klinklang at the moment is cutting far too deep. Can't just ban important glue and expect the tier to so easily adjust to losing it. If we ban klinklang, we need to ban many other things as well. And certainly "broke checks broke" isnt an argument, but when it is so much of the tier then we really need to ask how much is too much. And I think klinklang atm would be too much.No ban. Defensive checks to Klinklang, such as Throh, Stunfisk, and Sandslash are 'splashable' and have great utility across other match-ups; offensive checks that prevent Klinklang from setting up in the short-term are numerous and easy to build with in this meta: Hitmonchan, Boltund, Manectric, Dugtrio-A, CS Heatmor, Raboot, Golduck, Dusknoir, Lurantis, etc.; much of what Klinklang ought to cover defensively on paper like Appletun, Mr. Mime-G, and Rapidash-G can break Klinklang with coverage (or can bring in and pivot on Klinklang into a sturdier check, ex. U-turn from Unfezant or Silvally-Ice/-Rock); its lack of reliable recovery hurts its ability to stick around as a late-game wincon, and at the same time, it's easy to force Klinklang into Knock Off with users like Mawile, Pawniard, and Leafeon.ban, another difficult one. The spdef toxtect set is very stupid. It turns a pokemon which already has great wincon ability into something which can sit around and add huge value to a team defensively but also a menacing late game threat. The best counterplay ive seen for toxtect variants whether it be sub or shift gear has been random rest on things, and in a meta which preys on abusing free turns the best possible way, forcing rests is just asking for 5050s to occur, which already occur frequently. This is very limited counterplay btw, saying rest as a general term for like throh, stunfisk and other stuff is already a pretty poor argument which forces the meta down a more 1 dimensional route where u know u may just lose to this long term even if u have the specified check if u dont also have the move which beats it long term. Its defensive utilites are cool, i just think u need a more balanced offensive threat to be a valid pokemon in the tier. Removing it would hurt building, but also make the playability of the tier much better.No ban. While I think klang is a top 5 mon in the tier, I don’t consider it to be broken. Checks suck as throh or stunfisk are extremely reliable and common. Klang has to be played carefully to win. It must avoid taking a knock and it has to be careful about clicking gear grind into a potential helmet/static user. Every time I see klang take a game its always because the winning player was patient and played klang well.ban. my thoughts on this one are conflicted and it'd take a long time to write how i feel on it exactly but i think hjad basically said most of what needs to be said so i'll refer to his blurb and evi's post in the np thread for further elaborationdnb. Very manageable. Lefties doesnt offer real longevity and rest-talk is more of mediocre set than great. Can be hard walled by stunfisk and offensively +1 gear grind is not dropping mons. Generally it has defensive and offensive counter plays available.Not Banned
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ThrohNo ban. Great mon that hasn't changed much, still in the realm of dominant but not quite insane to prep for and has only gotten a bit worse because other more broken things are enabling itNo ban. The wallbreaking potential of the flame orb set is undeniable, but its also slow and does have a lot of offensive checks. I want to keep heavy tabs on this mon tho, as it could very well be only a matter of time until it is broken. See you soon throhNo ban. There are a good number of strong Fighting resists that fit easily on most team archetypes: ex. Drifblim, Gourg-XL, Rapidash-G, etc. Throh is extremely strong, but people have adapted to it successfully with sets like Growth Tangela. And, its slow Speed stat leaves it vulnerable to most offensive teams, as faster threats with type advantage like Kadabra and Unfezant are easy to build with in this meta. In short, there's enough counterplay here that I don't see the need to ban Throh.dnb, id like to see this more in a meta without klinklang and with our new drops, id definitely consider voting ban in the futureBan. The wallbreaking set actually has 0 true counters. Its only counterplay is hoping it doesn’t have the right coverage move for your team. We have fantastic wish users now (not to mention healing wish) allowing throh to come in multiple times and take several kills per game.ban. it has been sorta forced into running non-broken resttalk sets as of late but flame orb and subbu sets are extremely difficult to deal with and basically can't reliably be prepped for if you're not running sth like musharna (which has been very rare as of late, probably thanks to klinklang). this mon has just felt consistently overwhelming this gen, check out some of bugzinator's pupl replays to see how much work it can put indnb. Slow fat blob. Has both defensive and offensive counter plays available. Have not been provided ban worthy replays.Not Banned
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LilligantNo ban. Still hate this thing but we have a fair few checks and it hasn't really started running the meta yet. Keeping an eye on this and LurantisAs the meta currently stands, no ban. We have plenty of checks for it (Bouff, Klink, Fez, etc etc) and setting up also isn't as easy due to the fast pace of the meta atm. Easy A mon, so definitely prep for it, but it isn't as threatening as it was in SM but we also have noticeably less tools to deal with it too. Looking forward to seeing this again!No ban. Keeping Lilligant around doesn't add much to the tier, but we've got enough checks to this that it hasn't shown dominance yet. Scarf Unfezant is extremely common, Klinklang is ubiquitous, we just gained a good Lilligant check in Bouffalant (Sap Sipper), and there are older but still valid options of beating this in LO FI Falinks, etc. Teams should still pack a check to +1 Lilligant, but Lilligant's presence in the meta is nowhere near as problematic as I've seen it stated on the forums and in disc.dnb, same as the above, except id be less lenient with keeping this in a future test since it adds so little to the tier defensively, and creates 5050s in its presence because of sleep+qd (+sub) shenanigans.No ban. We have revenge killers like scarf unfezant and lilli has to rely on sleep powder to break through things like klang due to its terrible coverage. Bouff stops it completely. I don’t think this mon is really even close to being broken right now.dnb. it has counterplay so i cant rly call it broken, i do think the qd + sleep powder bs is borderline uncompetitive tho but i currently cant jusitfy voting bandnb. Has defensive and offensive counter plays. Very manageable. Stupid mon generally and doesnt offer too much for the tier competitively with its QD+Sleep powder. Generally "being unfun" isnt enough good reasoning to ban mon. Havent been provided banworthy replays.Not Banned
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