|Hi All - here is a prototype for next year's job market spreadsheet: https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1Zz6DhkzO2TFLZOnoFkT57TFVXwLhagGXE1A4AaxDwag/edit?usp=sharing||Looks good to me! Though, if Chuck Norris is job hunting, you realize we're all screwed right? I mean, come on, it's Chuck Norris!||This looks great! Thank you for putting it together. The only suggestion I have is to change "Q&A" to "General Q&A" and then to add "Micro Q&A" and "Macro Q&A". I also think it would be helpful for the Micro and Macro Q&A tabs to have headings of "University;" "Date/Question;" and "Date/Answer." Then, that way, people can insert school-specific questions and one "row" of questions and answers can be devoted to each particular institution.||<That seems very complicated, and that it seems like it would decrease the liklihood that the people who know the answers to all of the questions would actually read them.||People should be able to add and change tabs as necessary. The only thing that looks like it is locked down is the forms.||<-- Chuck Norris here - Correct. In the effort to keep the document open and community sourced people are free to create whatever other pages they think would be helpful.||I might combine the two links (micro macro) for posting information and then have a question on the form be micro/macro. This assumes there's a way to auto-populate the ensuing spreadsheets based on a filter, which may not be possible. |
|The forms addition is excellent. Should go a long way to help standardize the information that is kept One thing I wonder--on the Q&A pages, it might cause problems to have date and text in the same cell. One benefit to keep them separate is that rows can be sorted by date to get the most recent dates up to. I've actually wondered if a forum format would better for that function. This would be pretty trivial to implement if we setup up a website.||<-- A forum with an integrated google doc would be about perfect but I don't have the skills to do such a thing||I think the forms look good, but one question: after submitting a form, can you go back and edit later on? It appears that the sheet themselves are locked (which is what we want, presumably). Supposed Chuck Norris was invited to campus at University of Wonderland, and then get offered a job, how does Chuck add this information?||Chuck Norris here - the responses for the forms are locked down for most of the entries. However someone can still go in an edit the following fields: |
JOB CANDIDATES TAB: Final Placement
MICRO/MACRO JOBS TABS: Job Focus Area, Teaching Load, Deadline, AOM Interviews, Posting URL, Contact info, Other information (Only columns A-F are locked)
MICRO/MACRO INTERVIEWS TABS: Offer Extended, Offer Accepted (Only columns A-E are locked)
JOB OFFERS TAB: Offer Outcome, Additional Information, Comments (Only columns A-P are locked)
|I played around with the forms a bit. One thing I noted is that when you edit something, the date doesn't update (i.e. it reflects the original date the entry was made, not the date of the last update). More generally, I'm not certain what problem the forms are meant to solve (I don't mean that as a criticism, I'm just genuinely not sure what they might do other than standardize what people should put in...but presumably the "column headers" did this in the old document). I actually find a pure excel sheet easier to enter data in than the forms, but that's just one person's opinion. I do like the fact that the material gets "locked" from edits (so someone can't accidentally delete everything), but the trade-off may be that it is harder to enter stuff in, leading to fewer responses. But, I'd have to play around with it more to be certain.|
What I think would be ideal would be some way to have your own profile that you log into, make posts from (can be anonymous), and which tells you what has been updated since your last visit. This will allow readers to keep track of who is saying what (vs. saying "Entry M here, commenting on AB, I think..."), plus the obvious benefit of seeing at a glance what's new. However, I'm not sure how to do this - message boards have this functionality, but they also are not as easy to organize as a spreadsheet (i.e. you can't see all info at a glance if you have 14 different message board threads, vs. 14 lines on a spreadsheet).
|Only certain fields in the forms are locked down. People can still add/change/append new information - just depends on the field||With the posting of the Charleston job we are live on the new spreadsheet. If you have any changes to make go ahead and make them in the new spreadsheet.|
|3/30/2016||noob question: how does one find out about open jobs and post docs?||Three main sources: the AOM placement services (it is $35 for a year subscription), higheredjobs.com and chroniclevitae.com||jobs.ac.uk in the UK||Thank you!|
|Would there be any interest in people donating a few bucks to keep this document in top shape? Sort of like wikipedia.||Maybe. Depends what you mean by "a few bucks", but $5-10 to help the next folks would be fine with me. The only problem might be that fewer people check this sheet now than a few months ago, so I'm unsure how many people will contribute.|
|I know this is only tangentially related to the job market, but figured someone here would have some thoughts - where/how do you include AOM Best Paper Proceedings on your CV? Do you list them as a peer-reviewed publication? Or just make a note in the conference/presentations type section?||I put it in presentations and then include an asterisk next to the citation. Footnote the asterisk as denoting the award or distinction.||I've seen proceedings be put under peer-reviewed publications, which, to be honest, I find a bit misleading - they are reviewed, but not really by "peers" or experts in the field. I like C's answer. Or, you could put it under "other publications". Or, once you get the pub, you could put it under the actual pub with an asterix.||I have seen a lot of people putting it in their publications list. I'm not too sure what to do with it either. In my case, the paper based on the AOM best paper proceedings is at an advanced stage of revision and is now very different from it.||I'm with C & D on this. I think the most appropriate thing to do is to create a section on your CV entitled "Conference Proceedings" and put it under there.||Thanks! - OP|
|3/21/2016||How competitive is the application process for post-docs? Given that most candidates on the job market already have been hired by a university by the time post-doc positions are posted are post-doc extremely competitive?||I think this varies on the year. Some candidates may not have been on the market in August for various reasons so are now considering a post-doc, visiting, or staying an extra year. Plus, some post-doc positions typically hire people from Psych programs (not business), who also weren't on the market.||The post-docs at the top OB departments tend to be super competitive as you tend to compete with both OB PhDs and psych PhDs, and they usually have multiple A-level publications already.||OP: What about in macro areas such as strategy, IB, and entrepreneurship?|
|3/16/2016||x||have a form that people fill in when posting job info that automatically dates and organizes it||<- This. We could use a google form to fill things out.||Great question. Agreed about the date and organization. Also, keep it simple and clean. Multiple tabs showing different or similar pieces of information for the same school gets difficult to follow. I lke the Q&A and Catharsis tabs a lot. Would be nice to have a way for school-specific job questions to be slotted next to the schools themselves, for ease of tracking.||Q - does this mean you are taking on the task of setting this up for next year?||Can you integrate a google form and spreadsheet? It'd be great to have a form on the first sheet automatically update the other sheets. If users have to use one website to submit a form and another to view information we'll see less use.||<---agreeed. And that would be great if someone would take the lead on next year's doc.||I found that updating some of the annoymous information was hard (for example the candidate interview page). I thought the information on the page was helpful but I had a hard time remembering which line was mine.||gradcafe is great - i would be in favor of something that is similar but targeted to business school jobs||What do non-business schools use? I think sociology has some type of informal job board; I'm sure other disciplines do as well.||Could someone develop a prototype for us to view?||... crickets||--> lol!|
|3/16/2016||Any updates on the Boise State OBHR position?||got a rejection letter (physical letter) in the mail in the Dec.||Haven't heard a peep from them one way or the other||It is filled. I know the guy who was runner-up.3/30/16|
|3/12/2016||Any news on West Chester?||East Chester hired yesterday.|
|3/10/2016||I am a current assistant professor who is thinking to look for a new job that offers better fit. How is it recommended to frame the job search to new schools where I'll be applying?||Just say what you did here. Going on the market as an experienced assistant is hardly unusual.||Yes. As long as you have stayed for 2 years at your current school, few people would ask the "why leave" question.||A related question: if you are at your current school for less than 2 years (say, less than a year) and decide to look for a new job, does it look bad? Or is it a norm that you have to stay at your current school for at least 2 years before being on the market again?||<- E, I was on the market again during my first year as AP, and I ended up at a much better school with a much better fit for me. I remember maybe two schools that asked me about it when I was on the market, but otherwise, no one even seemed to notice. I still received offers from the schools that asked me about why I was on the market again. I was very worried about the optics, but it doesn't seem like it's out of the ordinary at all. That's just my experience. I'm sure some schools will care, but I didn't get the feeling that I was being harshly penalized.||Thank you, F! That's good to know.||E- There was a question about this earlier in this document. I seem to recall the genreal consensus being, do what you think is best for your situation but understand that leaving shortly after starting a new job (under 2 years) can have consequences and this is a small profession. |
You could be fine doing so but it could hurt your reputation.
|Agreed with H.||H - I won't disagree that there could be consequences, but everyone has to weigh their own cost/benefit. This was years ago, and, at least for me, it was absolutely the right choice. To your point, it is important to explain your choice to potential employers. The fact is that I'm much better off now in terms of career trajectory and my own well being. I won't pretend to know everyone's circumstances, but in my case I undercut my self and accepted a subpar job because the year I graduated the economy wasn't great. The market improved drastically the following year, and if I had stuck it out 2+ years, I would have handicapped my ability to publish and advance my career elsewhere in the future.||The optics are certainly important, but I think everyone at least implicitly understands that you have to do what you think is best for you, your family, and your career. And so, you have to just try and "do it the right way." Be up front if you get questions, have a good explanation for why you consider this important. And, when you're interviewing with other places, you will need to convey how that move would "solve" the problem that you're having. A move that doesn't fix the problem is likely little more than a waste of time for both you and the new school. But, if it is mutually beneficial, then as other commenters have noted, it likely becomes a non-issue.|
H is certainly correct to bring up reputation, and it's possible that some could "talk" about it. But again, if you give your current school as much warning as possible, and you are above board with the new school, reputation effects are likely minimal.
|How could we look for the new job without being detected by our current department chair?||To M, others may have a better answer here as I have not done this, but here is what I have gleaned from having friends go through this. In your cover letter, you might indicate that your search is covert, and so it would be great to not have this information get out if possible. Similarly, to those who write letters for you, you might indicate the same (and, not get letters from inside your department). This ensures that you are being "above the board," at least in terms of the new institution you are applying to.|
With that said...it can get out. It's a small field and people talk. In addition, a few years ago there was a situation where somehow, an institution publicized the names of its applicants (sorry, my memory of how this happened is fuzzy). Some schools also put the names of people giving job talks on their website and so it can get out that way. Point is...there are steps you can take, but it is by no means foolproof....
|3/9/2016||What's the difference between scopus and web of science? Are the number of citations roughly similar? I only know google scholar tends to have 2-3 times as many citations as web of science, but I don't know much about scopus.|
|3/9/2016||What does "Summer Funding" include in the Offers section? I see that's distinct from the Research Budget.. is summer funding for teaching additional classes during the summer term?||Many schools offer you summer funding - a term that generally is meant to indicate money you receive in the summer when you're not teaching (and maybe the "summer funding" term came about because historically you weren't paid in the summer because you weren't teaching - though I think most places now pay you over 12 months, not 9, so the term is a bit out of date). Probably just ignore the name and think of it as "bonus" money - at many schools it is an additional 2/9ths of your salary (hence you often hear the term "ninths" being used when talking about summer salary - e.g. "I get one ninth; I get two ninths") paid for some number of years (e.g. for 3 years after you start). Some places just give a flat amount (e.g. 10k in summer support). Once the summer support expires (e.g. after 3 years), different universities have different policies (e.g. you continue to get 1/9th of your salary if you're research productive; some just drop the summer support entirely). The amount of summer support, and how long you are guaranteed to have it, is subject to negotitaion.||Researched focused school tend to give 2/9s, balance 1/9, and teaching 0 summer support. Summer support ends up explaining a lot of the difference in salaries between research and balance schools, adding an extra 11% to research-focused positions.|
|2/29/2016||Can you negotiate a non tenure track job offer (clinical, post doc, visiting, etc)? If so, what sort of things can be negotiated ?||Of course. Everything is on the table, at least in theory (salary, contract length, teaching load, research support, etc.).||thank you, most times when we hear about negiotiations it tends to be for TT positions.||One key to negotiating any position is to show how what you are proposing benefits the institution, not just you. Further, any alignment with the institution's priorities, goals and/or mission is also helpful.|
|2/26/2016||I ended up at a ballet with my kids today and wanted desperately to have something to listen to. In the short time before the presentation I didn't have time to find a management related program (at least none that resembled academic topics). Does anyone have recommendations if I run into similar situations in the future? I'm generally more interested in macro topics (strategy, SHRM, OT, etc), or at least topics that aren't simply psychology (sorry OB folks).||I recomment this excellent podcast by Warwick phd students http://www.talkingaboutorganizations.com/||Pharrell's "Happy" > anything management related||"Happy" would add a nice twist to a ballet|
|2/26/2016||How problematic is it to have some gap in the CV? I really have to get the PhD degree in a few months (no way to extend it) and plan to be on the job market soon. There is likely to be a few months of gap between my job (if there is one) and my PhD defense.||sound more like a one-year gap in income||Apply for a visiting postion for the fall. Lots of schools have them, and then you won't lose the income or have the gap. Then you can go on the full market in July.|
|2/23/2016||How long does it take once campus visits are completed for the school to make an offer? I know it depends, but a general time range would be great!||depends how many other candidates they are flying out, once they are finished with all the candidates, they usually move in a couple business days||17.29 days||<- hilarious||What's the standard deviation?||There is no standard deviation. It's exactly 17.29 days. This was agreed upon at last year's committee meeting.||Serious answer, OP: It can vary quite a bit. The earliest I'm aware of is probably 2 days after a visit. I would say a week or so is pretty typical for the top choice. The latest could be a month to 2 months, depending on where you are on their list (for example, if you are 3rd on their list and the first 2 declined, but you are still someone they want, it's very possible an offer could still be coming your way). It's always good to check with the search chair regarding their timeline. Some are more transparent than others, but usually they'll tell you within a certain window, or by a certain date. Others can be even more direct and let you know where you are on the list, but that they still really liked you and don't want to lose you as an option (obviously, if something better comes along, then take it).||OP: Thank you for all of your answers (serious and non serious) :)||Totally depending on search committee members' schedule. If they invite last candidate on Monday, and they have a meeting on Friday, it will take at least 5 days. Things work in this way.|
|2/22/2016||Any idea how to get onto the editorial board of OBHDP (senior assistant professor asking)? I heard that if you do X number of reviews for them in a 3 year period, you automatically get onto the board, and I was just wondering if that's correct or if anybody has more information on this topic.||I don't think it's a formula like "Do X, you're in" - based on that formula, I could do X terrible reviews and get on the board. If you know any of the AE's or the Editor at OBHDP, ask them this question...they'll get the hint. If you don't know any AE or the Editor, you could try emailing the Editor and asking the question (and again, she'll get the hint), but that depends on how comfortable you are with doing that.||I've heard that if you do 4 good reviews (and being on time) per year for a couple years you will get selected.||Who deleted the rest of this thread?!||<-- A number of deletions have been happening lately. I don't really get it. Either someone is being careless, the sheet has problems, or someone doesn't realize that deleting something you disagree with or you think is irrelevant (which I guess could have applied to what was deleted here) is a no-no.||For what its worth, I think there's nothing wrong with inquiring to the editor about being placed on the board once you've done about 4 reviews in a year. To me, 4 is the magic number. Any more than that, you should put me on the board. And if my reviews aren't high enough quality to be on the board, then by all means stop sending me papers.||OP here: Thanks for the responses! I didn't get to read the posts that were apparently deleted. If there was any additional useful information, I'd greatly appreciate it if you could post your answers again.|
|2/22/2016||Do we have a new spreadsheet for this upcoming market, starting this summer?||usually one gets created around May. Right now there are still schools posting for jobs that start this coming August. Once those trickle out I am sure that someone will create a new spreadsheet.||<--Thanks!|
|2/20/2016||If you heard someone accepted a job but the information isn't in this document is it okay to add?||yeah, please do so.||Definitely, if you are sure the person accepted a job.||Search committee member here. I would say that it is not, unless you specifically ask them if it is ok. If they want to share that information, that should be their decision. If you know for certain a job is completely filled, then you can update the micro/macro jobs tab instead.||Same as E. Would suggest not to mention any name without asking the individual. You can also request them to update the candidate list tab and if they do not, it is their call.||Agreed with E. It's their news to share and to self-identify; however, you can certainly just say the job was accepted.||This was a point of much contention a couple of years ago as well...see row 24 in the link below|
My personal opinion is absolutely not. If you know for sure a job is accepted, then that seems like less of an issue, but to put the person's name on here? That feels very much like an overreach.
|I don't understand what all of the contention is here. Any university worth it's salt is going to have a profile on the hired faculty member up before the start of the semester. The information can be seen as anything but "private". I don't think the OP was talking about posting salary information - just the name of the school. The whole point of this spreadsheet is to share information to help candidates make decisions in the face of notoriously slow search processes.||E here. There is a huge difference between having a profile up for a new hire (most likely will not be done until July, if it can be done at all at that point since they may not be an employee yet) and outing someone for having accepted a job. If that individual does not post the information, who are you to post it on their behalf? What if they have accepted the job in principle but the university lags behind in sending them the formal offer letter and that never happens? What if university admin ultimately denies approval for the hire (has happened in many cases) and the individual has to find a job elsewhere? What if that individual has a spouse who has a job and has not yet been able to discuss their family changes with their employer but the employer somehow finds out (plausible if the person is in academia certainly, and potentially could happen with others)? |
The only question that really matters is: What do YOU gain by knowing John Doe has accepted a position at State U of Thereland? I can't think of one reason other than to satisfy your own personal curiosity.
|Agree with K. X 3||Yes, I agree that it is totally inappropriate to share someone's name. J & K (E) are spot on. My spouse works in the private sector and could not share with his work that he was leaving this early...he risked getting the axe early. (I was on the market last year.) There goes 6 months of needed income. Academia moves WAY earlier than others in this process. Everything worked out in the end, but there are so many scenarios where you can really mess up an individual's personal situation by making their name public.||Well, I was surprised that somebody has posted the place I accepted an offer from. Feeling not good.. I was thinking about deleting it but just left it...frustrating.||Absolutely M. the impact on a spouse's current job can be a big consideration.||N-Wow. Was your name in the job candidate sheet and they posted where you got the offer from? Or was your name placed in the macro/micro jobs sheets as an update-aka, "offer accepted by J Doe"||Well, I hope whoever posted N's information would be willing to identify themselves. I think it's only fair. However, my guess is that he or she is far more willing to post other people's personal information rather than his or her own.||I would hope that whoever posted N's information would think about the negative emotions that would invoke. If they are someone from the institution that is hiring N, is that really how you want to start the employment relationship? I know for me that would not be a positive start, and I would really be wondering about the positive intentions of my colleagues.||So at what point is it okay to post information on behalf of someone else? At some point everyone with a job will be on their employers website; do we wait until then? I understand if there are issues with a spouses employer (although I'd be shocked if those employers knew about or checked this spreadsheet) or if you're currently employed and accepted a job at a new university (although at this point in the calendar I think you should tell your employer so they can plan for the fall semester). There are probably other scenarios I'm missing but unless you fall into one of those situations there's no reason not to have your placement on this website.||S, I find it interesting that you would ever feel the need to post "on behalf of someone else" if they don't give you explicit permission to do so. I guess if you can't help yourself, the only time would be either a) when that person shows up to the office the first day or b) when that person's bio is published on your university's website. BTW, it's great that you think "at this point in the calendar I think you should tell your employer...", but it's not you or your employer, so it's not really your call, is it? Also realize that some people are just going on the market now, especially experienced professors, so they may not have even accepted an offer yet. In fact, even if an associate or full professor has accepted the offer at your university, they may be waiting for a tenure decision to make it's way through all the decision makers there before telling their current employer. That's not necessarily a bad idea, as once in a while a decision can get derailed even outside of the college.||S responding to T: |
It sounds like I've said something offensive and I apologize for that. I think my comment was more directed towards rookie applicants for whom managing their current employer relationship is less important. I totally understand not making a job public when there are extenuating circumstances (we've hired someone who held a senior position at another university and we're trying to hire another; I understand maintaining confidentiality in those situations). This spreadsheet has always seemed geared towards those newly graduating students and less towards senior professors (I'm not even sure there are non-rookies on the list).
One of the purposes of this spreadsheet (in my view) is to share where people have taken new jobs. There are lots of people who don't know about or don't care about this spreadsheet (or who haven't checked the site in months) and would never consider updating their information. I don't get off posting information, I'm just trying to help inform the community about new placements. I promise my motivation is only public good. Saying things like "if you can't help yourself" is just unneccessary and rude. I want to share information, my comment was asking when this is appropriate. I'm not going to do or post something that would harm other people. It sounds like the time to share is when a placement has been made public, whether that be the first day of classes or an announcement on the schools website.
|2/17/2016||Finally finished my AOM reviews and I want to contact an author of a paper I reviewed. Is there an appropriate way to do that without waiting until the AOM schedule is announced? What if the paper isn't accepted?||I would be most curious as to how you would know who wrote the paper in order to contact the author(s).||Sorry, I wasn't clear. I don't know who the author is but I want to find out so I can contact them. If the paper is accepted to AOM I can look them up on the schedule but that won't be released for a couple months (and I'm likely to forget).||You probably would need to put this request in a note to the division chair, being clear as to why you are interested in making that contact. You might have to wait until the program is published, is my guess.||I think E has the right idea. But even then, I wonder if the program chair for your division would disclose any information like that.||The blind review process, in theory, is incredibly important with great meaning across all academic journals. I would think the program chair would be unlikely to divulge this information, even if you were able to provide evidence that you were contacting the author for constructive purposes. I would strongly suggest waiting until the program is released, unless you believe there is a strong reason that the authors of the paper should be divulged.||Original poster here – I'll just cross my fingers that the paper is accepted and check the program when it's released. My interest in contacting the authors is to try to colllaborate on a project.|
|2/17/2016||Looks like the spring market is starting up. How many people are still looking for jobs? The "Job Candidate" sheet has lots of blanks but I suspect people aren't updating information.|
|2/17/2016||Any news from Texas Woman's University?||not yet|
|2/16/2016||Did Texas A&M (College Station) suspend their search? For the macro position?||Which search? They hired Matt Call (U South Carolina, per the job candidate sheet)||For the macro position||Yes, we suspended the search.|
|2/13/2016||What are people's views on PNAS? Similar to Science, as in it should be a no-brainer that it's an A-level? Or more like: What's PNAS?||Maybe I'm misremembering, but I seem to remember reading that PNAS is the third most influential journal after Nature and Science. Anyway, it's a no-brainer, clear A in my book.||Unless your school has a list of "A-level management journals" - then it may not be listed and you will at least have to explain it||I guess it's ok if you can't publish in ASQ or AMJ. <- Wow, how ignorant are you? Stuff that gets into ASQ or AMJ would almost never be viable at PNAS because it's not nearly impactful enough.||So, if you have PNAS or Science, does it carry more weight than JAP, AMJ, or other management journals?||F - haha||for tenure decision, not so much||H: why not? From what I heard, it is a top tier.||I've never heard of someone going up for tenure with a PNAS (or Nature or Science) publication without plenty of commonly accepted management A publications, so I can't say how the journal is received. I've never heard schools mention any of these three journals in acceptable A-publication lists but that's probably because management people don't publish in them so it isn't worth the time to think about. The few tangentially-management articles I've read in Nature were very short and I believe had longer publications based on the same data in core management journals (though I may be completely remembering this incorrectly).||E- you are joking, right? To any scientist in the world, it should be clear that Science or PNAS trump AMJ or ASQ. I mean, this shouldn't even be a debate. PNAS gets over 20 million clicks per month! I mean, talk about impact. I doubt AMJ got that many clicks in its lifetime... To give F a proper response: It depends on the department. I would like to think that any management department that isn't overly "insecure" and only values management journals should value a Science or PNAS or Nature more than any other journal (assuming the content of the article is relevant for management, of course). But the reality is that there are many management departments that only care about the 5-6 management journals and discount everything else (maybe because they're obsessed with rankings).||To K - I agree it's difficult to discern how much PNAS is valued, but plenty of people have gotten tenure with PNAS/Science pubs but no management A pubs - they're mostly the social psych people. To the extent that you consider JPSP, Psych Science, etc. "commonly accepted management A pubs", I agree with your statement, but psych pubs are not (yet) commonly accepted A pubs at many management departments.||K to M – I don't work with any social psych people which is probably why my experience with PNAS, Nature, and Science is limited. My department would appreciate JPSP, Psych Sci, etc but they wouldn't carry the same weight as a core management journal.||Couldn't agree more with what L said.||M to K/N: Makes sense, and I'm glad to hear your department values the top psych journals, albeit less than the core management ones!||I"m just curious: who in our field has published in Nature?||To Q :|
|Katie Liljenquist at BYU published in Science||So one person, once? (Science apparently not counting)||Several people have published in Science (Galinsky, Zhong, Whitson...). I don't know of anyone who published in Nature besides Uzzi. PNAS seems a bit more common, especially among the disciplinary/psych people, but still rare. Ultimately, it's very rare to publish in these "Big 3" journals, so they're probably not on most lists, but it'd seem incredibly foolish to me for anyone to argue that they're not clear A-level journals.||Rachel Croson has a sicence.||social psych person here.. i know several bschool social psych people who always submit their high impact work in the order of science, nature, PNAS, then JPSP, psych science||<- I agree with the gist of your post, except that in my experience, people don't try to submit to Nature. It's almost impossible to get into Nature with social science research.|
|2/12/2016||Quick question, the search committee, dean and associate dean described the job as one thing (teaching at grad level, research support and course reduction due to research) however the department chair described the job in almost opposite terms (Undergrad only, no course load reduction at all) How do I go about getting clarification about the job description ?should I just wait to see if the offer comes through and examine the offer or should I make contact now?||I would wait for the details of the offer (if you get one). Particularly, if it is something that will determine whether you take the job or not. Did you like the school and everything else about the department?||There could be a new direction the dean's office is seeking to take which has not been communicated to the departments (which in of itself would be weird). I've seen that happen where there used to be XYZ load but the dean's office is trying to change this and chairs are still assuming the old way is in place. Getting the offer in writing as C points out will be key. It is probably not a bad idea to get clarification now as that information could shape your perspective on the position. Plus it shows you are being diligent (communicated professionally of course, and not pointing out the discrepancy in a way that makes them look uncoordinated). Sometimes schools will also have different expectations of positions based on whether they are for junior people or not.||C-I loved the school and everything else. Just thought it was odd that everyone (both above and below department chair)had one view of the position and the department chair had a different view. Thanks both D and C for the insight||C here: Had the department chair been there a lot longer than everyone else? I have noticed on some of my campus visits that people that have been at the university the longest have different views on research. Particularly when the school increased the amound of research activity within the past 10-20 years. But, it would definitely be something you need to clarify before you accept a job!||Definitely get clarification but if the answer is still murky I would probably believe the department chair's opinion. S/he is the one determining the classes you teach and your individual research budget. |
This is a common business problem; the strategy is set from the top but the line managers are still responsible for implementing the strategy.
|Thank you. F-yes, the department chair has been there longer than the dean and it seems like they are going in a new direction than before. Thank you everyone for all your advice, I will wait to see what the details the offer comes back with. Thanks again|
|2/12/2016||I am hoping to finish the PhD program in 4 years. It's tough,I know, but I am willing to put in the hard work . |
From the comments, I have read on this board and from what I have heard from some junior faculty members is that, at best, one can land a Post Doc.
I was hoping if there are people who finished the program in 4 years and landed as an Asst Professor in a B-school ? Would be great if they could share their experience.
|If you publish in A journals you can graduate and get a job at a research school in 4 years (or 3 years), especially if you're the lead author on the papers. Doing this while also balancing your other responsibilities will be really hard. |
Ideally you'd also have a pipeline of other papers that will carry you to tenure, otherwise there's no point in graduating early. I know more people who are staying 6 years to spend more time off the tenure clock working on papers. Once you start a job you have five years to earn tenure so the more work you can get done before graduation the better.
Ultimately, the only thing a research school cares about is research. If you're publishing research in A-outlets you'll be fine.
|Agree with C. Plus, staying 5 (or 6) years in the PhD will allow you to establish your academic network.||What's the rush? This is a marathon, not a sprint. If it's money that's driving it - don't do it. If it's family, know that your academic network and first placement (per D comment) might suffer. It's your choice.||2 of our recent students finished in 4 years; one got a 2-year post-doc and one got an asst prof position. Both are happy with the decision. It's doable, but I would keep your options open. If you can't find a professor job you like or a really great post-doc, just stay for the 5th year and be really productive.||I am finishing my degree in 4 years. Most people in my program finish the program in 4 years. Every graduate has landed an Assistant Professor position. It is not as difficult and daunting as many of the comments on this sheet make it seem. However, it does depend on the program you are in. In a program where a lot of people finish in 4 years, you are not going to get much push back from your chair/ committee members about finsihing in that time frame. If you are at a different kind of school, it could seriously impede your progress. It also depends on where you want to get a job. If you want to go to a balanced or teaching school, 4 years is no issue. High research activity schools are in a whole different league. I can understand why someone would want to finish in 4 years (although the "why rush?" mentality seems prevalent on here). I am not a wealthy person, my family is not giving me money to finish my degree, and I have to support myself 100% while finishing the program. It is difficult to live of off your PhD student funding for more than 4 years.||B here.|
G, thanks a lot for the comment. Btw. are the placements in North America or Europe ?
For me, the reason for wanting to finish early is family and like G said it is difficult to live off PhD student funding and whatever little savings I have for more than 4 years.
I would not mind a balanced school job, although I do harbour ambitions of getting a job at a research school. But, is it possible, to move from like a balanced school to a research intensive institution ?
|It's what C said. The number of A-level publications will determine where you end up. Can you move from a balanced to a research school? Sure, but it'll be so much harder to be productive on the research side if you teach in both semesters (which is virtually always the case at a balanced school). Think about this: You have 12 months for research as a PhD student once you're done with classes. You have around 8 months for research as an assistant professor at a research school, especially at the beginning when you won't have hardly any time at all for research while you teach (new prep, learning the ropes, etc.). You have around 3-4 months in the summer for research as an assistant professor at a balanced school. So you do the math.||C again. |
A good piece of advice I got early on was to work to finish your PhD in four years but plan on staying five. If the ideal job opens in your fourth year it may not happen again for a few years and you wouldn't was to miss that opportunity. If you're less concerned about locations/schools this may not matter as much but it's always nice to have options. Having a three year job window (years 4-6) gives you a lot more options.
It's hard staying in school when you have family reasons to leave earlier but I've seen many people in my program stick it out through that fifth (and some cases sixth) year and they turned out okay. The earlier you can start planning on an extra year the easier it will be to manage funds.
Ultimately if you find a job you're happy with in four years that's great. If not, talk with faculty about additional fifth year funding. We could teach extra classes during the shortened summer terms for a few thousand. You may even consider looking for small consulting projects which tend to pay well (and can sometimes get you data).
|If you are not hung up on getting into a top research university, 4 years should be fine. I know many people who have done that and placed at decent jobs. Do keep in mind that for several years, the average length has kept creeping up. 5 and 6 is the norm to be competitive at top schools. Comes down to the difference between an "OK job" and a top job. Don't forget that chances of getting tenure are also low, so starting at the top-most job that you can is important too. Otherwise you may realize 5 years post-PhD that you punted the problem down the road||I finished in 4 years in a school where most people spend 5 or 6. I did get some push back from my advisers initially but eventually they became supportive. I am now at a research school and am quite happy. I didn't plan to finishing in 4, but I got lucky on a couple projects and they got published earlier than I expected so when I was at the end of my third year I had enough pubs to go on the market. Though had I stay for a fifth year I could've probably landed a better job.||B here.|
Thanks C for a nice piece of advice which I will try and follow.
M, did you start those projects in the 1st year ? What would you suggest
to someone who wants to get a project published at the end of third year just like you did.
|M here. Yes I did start projects in my first year. I submitted three papers by the end of my first year and two got published in my third in top tier places. So like I said I got lucky and finished in 4 years. The review processes that I went through for my more recent papers weren't as lucky as my first few though :((||Agree with G. Nearly everyone here (US,R1 School, Strategy) finishes in 4 years as it is the culture of the University. Those on the market this year placed well.||Bascially, there is a lot of uncertainty in the whole process.|
-Work hard, hope for the best and prepare for the worst !!
|2/5/2016||Among management journals, which one is in favor of very financy topics??||...none? Sounds like you're looking for a finance journal.||It's all in the framing. You can get "financy" type topics published at SMJ and JOM the easiest most likely, and AMJ has published studies that are similar to research topics you could find in Finance journals.||<<FBR (Family Business Review) publishes finance pieces on family business. And a lot of strategy journals have some "financy" stuff||Go for Management Science||JIBS if international finance||I love C's answer, so predictable.||Beyond what people have mentioned (A level journals), something like Journal of Business Research (JBR) publishes crossover research. It is a solid B at most universities.|
|2/4/2016||Should I teach a new prep next semester or teach the principles class I already have prepped, but teach it online? Which is more valuable on the job market - having more courses ready to go or having online experience? PhD candidate on the market this fall||At a research oriented school, this will basically not matter (so go with NO new prep, especially if you're on the market!). Not once have I heard someone say "yeah, but look, this person has one extra prep/taught online..." when deciding between candidates. At other schools, it just really depends if it's a school that looks to do online teaching or a school that happens to have a need for the class you may prep next semester.||C's answer is spot on||Completely agree||I would say the online class is better on most counts. I wouldn't worry about prepping more courses during your PhD since you have no idea what your eventual job will want you teaching. Teaching online is very different from class-room teaching, so gaining experience in that context will be more valuable than teaching new content. More colleges are looking for experience in online teaching so having that on your CV could be a plus, albeit minor, even for a research school (if you and another candidate are otherwise equal it could make a difference).||Online teaching is becoming increasingly important to committees as a lot of MBA programs move to online formats. I'd say teach it if you can. Also, I think online teaching is a LOT less work. It's more work upfront to set everything up but very little work after that!||OP - Thanks to all of you for the insight!||Don't teach, focus on research!!||I think you have to think about what kind of job you want first. Most of the advice given here is great if you are considered a more research-oriented school. However, if you want to go to a teaching or balanced school, you will have to take a few things into consideration. First, you need to teach at least one class in your core area (i.e., strategic management, organizational behavior, human resources, entrepreneurship). Only having taught principles of management could be a challenge going into the job market. My interviews with more teaching oriented schools have frequently been about how I teach my core area. You will also most likely have to do a teaching demonstration on a subject in your core area on campus interviews. This is much easier if you have already taught that class! That being said, having online teaching experience is also useful on the market. I have had a few schools ask me about my online teaching experience. However, it was not a question as often as if I had taught in my core area. So, think about what kind of school that you would like to work for. If you are going more research oriented, I would say do the online class. If you want to go teaching oriented, teaching something in your core area.|
|2/4/2016||How much do post docs typically pay? Obviously there are differences depending on programs, but any ranges would be appreciated. Thank!!!||Last year I saw between $50-70k||The lowest I've seen is $46k and the highest was $70k.||I've seen between $45k and $75k.||The rate at my school is $65k.|
|2/1/2016||Did anybody else hear that they are considering to have AOM in the same 5 cities over and over again (and one of the cities being... shudder... Orlando)?||I heard a similar thing. Orlando, Phili, Vancouver, Boston and Anaheim? I think the first three are right, not sure about the last two. |
My wife and kids would be much more accepting of my conference attendence if they got to visit Disney. And I would be more excited for Orlando if it weren't in August; visiting Orlando betwen March and October is unbearably hot.
|Yay for Philly and Vancouver. Boston is a great city, but AOM was very spread out (walking up to 45 minutes to another hotel). Anaheim, OK, for the family. But I have yet to meet a person who liked AOM in Orlando.||Come on.....can I say one of reasons why I attend AOM is to visit the local area and have some fun while traveling??? all the same cities in a row...I may not go!||Is it possible that our AOM could be held in Eurpore?? I really want to travel.....haha||They're discussing 5 cities precisely because Orlando was universally disliked. Orlando is not on that list.||G--then which cities are on the list, you seems know?||ORLANDO??!!! I can't believe that Orlando is on the list! Seriously, Orlando??!! I heard that San Antonio is coming back into the mix. I love me some River Walk!||Since reading about Orlando, I haven't been able to concentrate on my dissertation. Somebody PUHHHLEASE tell me this is not true.||Last year or so I heard the list of 5 cities includes Chicago, Philly, Boston, Anaheim, and Orlando (the last two for families who want to go to Disney). San Antonio is in the running and may kick off Boston. I also heard a lot of people loving Vancouver, so maybe that'll bump one of the 5. Personally, I think Chicago, Philly, Vancouver, Anaheim, and Boston/San Antonio would make a fine list.||what about Atlanta?||I heard that the cities were: Philly, Vancouver, Boston, Montreal, and possibly Chicago/Seattle. I heard Aneheim and Orlando were out.||My advisor just told me that Orlando is on the list. What is going on with this world?||I heard Anaheim and, unfortunately, Orlando are in for the family crowd.||Next year's (2017) is in Atlanta. Is there an idea of the year after that yet?||Does anyone know when these locations as the 5 of choice will be decided?||I think they've been decided just not made public, so people are speculating or don't remember. I was told a list at AOM but don't remember what it was.||I personally like Orlando. I have been told attendance overall bumps up for Orlando and Anaheim. I would be surprised if Vancouver is not on the list given the desire to be international every few years. Not a fan of Philly personally, and definitely did not like San Antonio.||Orlando is NOT 1 of the 5 people!||Atlantis, Constantinople, Lenningrad, Roanoke, Babylon||I've heard it rumored to be Boston, Philadelphia, Vancouver/Seattle (rotating), Anaheim, Chicago...not Orlando or Atlanta. I believe they're catching on that the south has miserable weather in the summer.|
I LIKE U!!!!!!!!!!! <--- U here, aww... I like you too
|V sounds right.||U: I'm pretty sure it was Istanbul, not Constantinople|
Tiny Toons version (and They Might Be Giants):
|Orlando as a faculty will be very different to Orlando as a student.||<- How so? Different shades of horrible?||Why is Orlando back on the list? This has got to be a joke. Who can we write to?||<--- AOM tried to get away from Orlando, they really did. But the meeting didn't go so well. Luckily someone had a cell phone and captured the meeting on video, so we can all see what went down. See next cell for the link to the video -->||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TF4_4g1B2Ug||Am I the only one who liked Chicago? I'd like to see more northern cities on this list, like Minneapolis, Denver, San Francisco, Seattle. I mean, it's in August! If they want to keep the southern cities they should hold it in February... everyone would be thrilled for the escape.||<- I think most people liked Chicago. It's up there with Boston, Philly, Montreal... To me, Vancouver is the no-brainer. One of the best conference locations ever, especially in August. Totally agree with the comment on Southern cities, too. But February is tricky because many people have to teach.|
I didn't like Montreal; it felt too spread out.
|<- And full of angry francophiles|
|1/31/2016||How many course is a visiting professor usually required to teach?||It depends on the norms of the school as well as their teaching needs. Some schools will treat visiting positions like post-doc with reasonable teaching and no service. Other schools may see it as a way to fill their needs and up the load more than their regular faculty. The circumstances under which the visiting position comes about can be a predictive factor.||I am currently on a 3/3 with no service expectation as a visiting assistant. Semester by semester contract, but already on the teaching schedule for summer and next fall||D: thanks! compared with your colleague, are you on heavier teaching load or about the same? Thanks!||I'm currently visiting, teaching 3/3 with no service reqirements. Regular faculty in my depeartment teach 2/2.||thanks!|
|1/29/2016||When will be the spring market ended approximately? I noticed that several schools recently posted jobs and I wonder how many more schools will do so...||April 3rd, around 4:17 PM EST.||<- ha, that's a good one.||how is that a good one? that's the date/time the field collectively decided at the winter summit to be the end of it all||hahaha :-) |
I would estimate by end of April, then there is a bit of a break in May, followed by job postings starting June-ish
|That was the least controversial decision to come out of the winter summit. I still don't understand how the field came to that decision about how to deal with people who did interviews with their schools at AOM.||G is right - this consensus-making process needs to be less opaque||I was happy when the winter summit finally decided what the A journals for the field were, though.||Journals? Plural? I thought the only true A was going to be Journal of Management||lol @ J||No, they decided that an "A" Journal is in the eye of the beholder. If you "want" your most recent pub to be considered an A, just say it's an A and be done with it. Seems to have worked for me so far, and no one has bothered to ask what the journal name is...plus my CV just says "Top A Journal" for each line. People are impressed from what I can tell.||Are you in my department? Because this sounds like my department||Yes, M I'm your advisor|
|1/29/2016||This might be a dumb question. In the offers tab, there are several people writing "PRJ" in the tenure requirements column. What is PRJ? I'm guessing peer-reviewed journal. Is that correct?||yup.||Thanks!|
|1/29/2016||I find there are still a lot of positions with an "open" status in the Micro Jobs, but their deadlines have already passed. Does that mean I can still send applications because they have not been filled? Many thanks for any guidance.||People just don't update the doc anymore I guess.||I wouldn't send anything if the application deadline has passed. I know of several "open" status schools that conducted Skype interviews but found out they might not have funding for the position, so they haven't moved yet. If a school has a position actually re-open, they'll post it with a new deadline.||To this same point (A), what is the easiest way to find jobs that are still listed as not being filled on this document? Sorting in the Offer Accepted Date / Column J under "Micro Interviews"?||If you want to know if a school is still accepting applications after the deadline has passed (by a week or so, not months) e-mail the search committee chair and ask. I have done this before with success.|
|1/28/2016||I got an offer, but they only gave me four days to decide. Is this normal? Can I extend it by a week or two?||yes, you can ask to extend, that's normal||4 days is a little short, but you can certain ask for more. Whether they allow it or now is another thing.||Just a tip - it helps if you have a reason to ask for an extension (e.g., another campus visit already planned). If they are your #2 school, now is a good time to check in with your #1 to see where you stand.||Four days is really quick; they might have someone else they also like that they don't want to miss out on if you say no||Four days is obnoxiously short. Nothing wrong with asking them if you can have an extension. They might say no (and if so that means they're really interested in someone else should you say no), but really, that's about the shortest window I've heard of.||I know of someone who was given only 24 hours. Was only able to extend it to ~2 days. Ended up accepting and loves the job. Usually the reason is that they have someone else they would make an offer to...and that person may also be facing another offer deadline, which is why things can get so rushed. But it's definitely normal to ask for one extension; asking for a 2nd extension is usually frowned upon (though it definitely happens and sometimes is granted).|
|1/27/2016||You know how sometimes you see postings that more or less say that they would be interested in any qualified candidates (kind of like a wide casting call instead of just hiring for one particular job)? Has anyone had any luck with submitting your materials for one of these?||Yes, got fly outs, but accepted another exploding offer before the final decisions.||Some schools, typically top tier ones, run a generic job ad nearly every year, so that they can recruit someone should a good prospect come along. I think UT Austin used to to that.||OP: Thanks. I just wonder how many of these schools actually hire someone. I have seen more than just top tier schools do this. It is an interesting approach.||Agree with D. The school where I did my PhD runs one every year. Sometimes there actually is a position. Other times, they're just looking to see who applies and if they get someone intriguing, they'll bring them out and then try to convince the dean for another line.|
|1/23/2016||Are there going to be more positions or schools will start recruiting in Feb.? I applied to a bounch of schools before Christmas and haven't heared anything ever since.||There's generally a spring market for failed fall job searches or filling positions of professors who accepted a new assignment in the fall. Really hard to know what the spring market will look like but the fall market was really good so hopefully spring will do likewise.||It also depends on the school's perspective where professors have accepted new positions. Sometimes schools will opt to hire an adjunct or a part-time lecturer -- basically a non-tenure track person who is less expensive to hire; then re-open their search the following year after the person has taught in 2016-2017.||D makes more sense||E, how is C not making sense exactly?||F, are you kidding?? dont split hairs...be nice:)||G, are you kidding?? If anything, E's odd one-liner is "not nice"... F asking about it is perfectly legitimate. +5||https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7pdWAcK6Eh8|
|1/23/2016||Did anyone accept an offer from UNC (OB)?||heard it was turned down||No, not accepted. they don't seem to be trying for a second round or anything||<--this is good to some extent, maybe they will reopen this upcoming summer:)||They only make an offer to their top candidate; if that's not you you're out||Two offers were made, both rejected for different reasons. From interviewing there, they care a great deal about fitting with the department. But they plan on recruiting rookies again next year|
|1/22/2016||What is going on with THE Ohio State Strategy/Sustainability?||I heard that they were looking for senior applicants...|
|1/21/2016||Why do (some) European schools seem to pay a lot less than U.S. schools (looking at the offer tab) when comparing teaching loads? If that is true, what's the draw (besides living in Europe!)? Is there any other money on the side or something?||There is no "other money on the side" except that at a few schools, you get paid extra per publication. But in general, European schools pay less (exceptions being LBS, INSEAD, ESMT, and IMD). Some pay a bit less, but still a good amount (UCL, HEC, IESE, IE, Bocconi). The draw is, as you stated already, that you get to live in Europe. Unless you are in London or Paris, the cost of living is generally lower, and you don't need savings in the bank for "just in case" scenarios like in the US (to just give one example, if you give birth in the US, you're easily out a few thousand bucks for doctor's visits, hospital stays, etc., even with insurance; in Western Europe, it'll be free. I remember when I didn't use to know what "co-pay" and "deductible" mean...).||I agree with C. I would add other aspects that make Europe a good option, such as a better retirement system, better and almost free schools, safer food with lower sugar content etc||<- It kind of all depends on money. On average, I agree with you. But, if you have money, you can get really great stuff in the US (e.g., private schools for kids, organic foods, great healthcare). It just comes with a big price tag. So you need the big bucks in the US to have as good a lifestyle or a slightly better lifestyle compared to having a reasonable, but not great salary in Europe.||Just move to Canada, all the same benefits described here of Europe, but closer to US-style pay, and close to the US for those with family there.|
What's that? The snow? Shh, don't mention that. Also, don't mention that you get paid in Canadian dollars. Shh, I say!
|In major cites in the U.S., a professor salary is still upper middle class -- unless you've got tenure, side consulting gigs, a book, etc. etc. I think non-US candidates vastly overestimate the quality of life they'll get for the pay. Yes, you can buy a house, but there are very expensive property taxes... public school will cost you at least $15K/year in property taxes just to live in the right district. Having lived in both places, the quality of life in Western Europe is amazing... still a well-kept secret IMO. I'm shocked more people don't apply to European schools, compared to the numbers I hear applying for US ones. Though it would be unjust to end without saying there are plusses and minuses to all places and individual fit is more important than most general statistics. Because I value longevity and quality of life and travel, I'd rather be average $ in Europe than slightly well off $$ in the U.S.|
|1/21/2016||What's going on with MIT?||Romney?||I think he's having a few more kids/grandkids?||LOL https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yTCRwi71_ns||<< haha. this is great too: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bxch-yi14BE||I, too, would like to know what is going on with MIT. But, I also love the direction this conversation has taken. So torn.|
|1/21/2016||Did the Northwestern offer get accepted?||not yet||was it rejected and they're moving on?||no. the offer is not accepted yet||When do they plan to move on?|
|1/21/2016||What's going on with HEC Paris (Strategy)?||the search is over. somebody accepted an offer.||did they hire 2 people?||I think 2 offers. One accepted at this point||Search over. 2 people hired|
|1/21/2016||What happened to Maryland BE/Strategy?|
|1/21/2016||Any news on McGill Strategy? I heard many of applicants received an email from the school asking their availiability on the market||I heard they made an offer but it was turned down.||they may invite some more for a second round||Heard McGill did a second round already and will probably make the next offer soon-ish.|
|1/20/2016||What happened with the 2 positions at U of Oregon?||Offers but none accepted, AFAIK. They may be looking to hire an advanced assistant or associate. <<<<what does AFAIK mean?? <<< As far as I know||So would they close the search this year or???||C here...Unknown.|
|1/19/2016||Any news on Boston University Strategy?||I think they are starting to review applications||Wow - that's so late!||they may be considering the econ market. that is why so late ...|
|1/19/2016||Any news on Duke Strategy?||Get a better recruiting class so that Coach K doesn't lose 4 in a row!||<- Ha! Well done. x2||Flyouts in progress||I like C's answer. Most insightful|
|1/18/2016||How soon do jobs begin getting posted for the next year's market? May?||last year, a few started coming in June, but August/Sept is when the bulk are posted||July/August before AoM is the first batch of openings from my experience|
|1/14/2016||These days I saw a couple of postings for post-doc, from R1 schools. Now I have to make decision: whether I want to stay for 6th year and try the market this summer? or should I apply for 2-year post-doc and then try the market 2 years later (assume I can get the postdoc offer)? anyone else has the similar problem?||the same situation---look forward to thoughts from more experienced people||ironically, these prestigious post-docs often only consider graduates from elite schools.||A post-doc helped me, but the market is different every year. In my case, I had a decent pipeline of things and the post-doc gave me extra time for things to hit so I went on the market with an A pub (and didn't have one the first time I was on the market).||Advanced AP here. Similar to E, a good way to assess this is to think about your pipeline. Where do things stand with your projects, how well is your identity your own, etc.? The beauty of a post-doc is that it serves like a transitory period between doctoral student and faculty life. There's time to do research, usually some teaching but not as intensive as tenure tracking responsibilities, and usually no service. Plus you get to engage with the intellectual community at the new institution and build your network, this could positively impact your 'brand,' etc. I wish I had done a post-doc!||<- I agree with everything here, but feel like I should add a few negatives of post-docs as well. First, you will need to move to a new place and get settled, which sucks up time at the beginning of the first year. Then, before you know it, you will be on the market at the beginning of the second year. So if you do a post-doc, see if it's possible to do a 3 year post-doc. Avoid 1 year post-docs.||<- I've seen 1-year post docs work for a few people, but these were the ones that really only needed an extra year (and weren't at a school with available funding to stay for a 5th / 6th year)||<- It's just hard to get much out of a 1 year post doc. You move, you are on the market right away, you often teach at least one new course, you have to finish/continue projects from your PhD - just when do you have the time to make meaningful new connections at the post doc institution?||I'm currently on the market after doing a postdoc at an elite school (it was a step up from my doctorate). I did it because I wasn't ready for the market and the opportunity came up through my network. It also allowed me to finished my PhD in 4 years instead of 5 and switch from econ to strategy. Given I wanted to switch fields it was critical for me to have the extra year to build my network. Also, I wanted to finish my PhD sooner rather than later - because I was tired of being a PhD student. |
I had a great time this past 1 1/2 years. I built my network, made new friends, and started cool projects with a well known scholar and other postdocs. But, for many reasons (but not from lack of trying) I didn't have a pub on this market, which looks even worse now than it would have been if I 'd gone on the market right after the PhD. I also had to move for a temp position and had to commute to see my spouse. So that sucked too.
I don't regret my decision. But, I would think about the downsides seriously.
|Same situation as J here, I finished my PhD in 4 years because I had an opportunity for a postdoc with a good label. At that time I had nothing. I considerably improved my CV in the meantime (pub and new R&Rs) and ultimately got a much better job.|
|1/14/2016||Maryland's OB search failed this year, would they open again this summer? my dream school!||wow really? I saw that they invited 5 people out and no one would say yes to Maryland!?||They also may not have liked all the people they invited. Fit is important.||I think while they were waiting for a candidate to decide on an offer their other fly-outs accepted other offers, so even if they liked the other candidates they missed out.||I heard that their favorite (from Ivy schools) turned down their offer||Poor Maryland.|
|1/14/2016||The sheet says the school made an offer a month ago. I know others have received rejection email, while I haven't. Does it mean I'm the second choice? (They just won't get back to me....)||If you had a campus visit, that is probably the case. This happened to me in fall, and I didn't receive a rejection e-mail either because 1) the offer hadn't been officially accepted yet, and 2) when I did get an e-mail, it came directly from the chair with a personal note (rather than an automated e-mail). I wouldn't contact this school again (I know you want to know) unless you have another offer and need to know where you stand to make a decision.||THat's probably a fair assumption|
|1/13/2016||Does anyone know if UW-seattle filled their 2 positions this year? I know one position is filled already. If they did not, do they reopen this summer again?||They have a few more candidates visiting over the next couple of weeks.||Thanks C for this update! I hope they will have new opening this summer again...||I just received the rejection letter....why do I hope they would not fill that position and so they can reopen again this summer? I know I am bad...sorry!:)||They hired Kira Schabram||<--yes, but they have another opening.... x2||<- they're in the middle of more fly-outs; not sure when an offer will be made|
|1/13/2016||How do you cancel future jobtalks that were already planned if you receive an exploding offer that cannot be extended and you decide to accept it?||Congratulations on the job! Since you are accepting the other offer, I would be gracious in telling the schools this update. Even though you are not going to a particular place anymore for an interview, it's important to be polite and professional as that relationship could continue, you will see those faculty possibly in future at conferences, the field is so small, etc. I don't think it's shocking or altogether unexpected for this circumstance you are describing to occur. Schools usually know that candidates are interviewing at other places, and it's not always within candidates' hands to determine the timeline on when offers and job talks unfold.||Thanks C - but can I push the question a bit? What normally happens in this situation? Does it just get cancelled? Or does the school sometimes still want you to come out for a visit (which is basically like a seminar seires)? I'd like to know the norm in the field||it will mostly get cancelled.||Thanks all||Or they will invite another candidate.||It is important that you inform them asap that you accepted an offer -- and leave it up to them to cancel/maintain your seminar. Otherwise, they will be very upset (for wasting their time and resources) and hold a grudge for a long time. Academia is a repeated game!||<-- agreed. There will be no hard feelings when you cancelled, more like a sense of relief since you won't waste the school's time.|
|1/13/2016||Now that many of us are coming to the end of our doctorate programs, I am curious about what you found most surprising about your program? What did you find out about the profession that you were not expecting? For me, I am surprised how much people still tell you what to do, think, feel, behave, wear, etc. in a profession that I thought was about progressive thinking.||How much you will hear your advisor's voice in your head even after you graduate :-)||So much gossip in the field :P||Politics>meritocracy||I have been surprised at the general lack of guidance - it has been sort of a sink or swim mentality||I have been surprised by how many *bleeps* are out there, especially in senior positions. After a while, it made sense, because nobody, especially junior folks that are usually the victims, dare to speak out against them, so they are oblivious to how much damage they are causing.||<--agreed||Several surprises. (1) That there are quite a few people that teach and research management (OB, HR) and are not reasonably effective managers. (2) The difficulty that many good people on the market are having at finding a job, (3) the dramatic difference between companies and universities in processes used to hire people. The lack of information provided in a timely manner to applicants (especially interviewees) is very surprising and it not very considerate of the time and feelings of the applicant.|
|1/12/2016||Any news from V-Tech?||V-Tech ended up going for rookies only. They made offers but candidates did not accept. They might be back on the market next year.||< Thank you so much.|
|1/8/2016||Do schools let interview candidates know if they are not making an offer? Or silence/no-response is the way to communicate that?||Ugh, this can be so frustrating. Some schools will let you know; others won't. The timeline on when schools will let you know varies and is not always easy to determine. I believe that if a school doesn't get back to you, it wasn't meant to be (I know, much easier "said" than "done").||Agreed with C. That's why having this spreadsheet also helps because you get updates and would know if offer has been extended/accepted and you're not the one. That said, I've also had a school contact me for a job talk after 3 months of silence||<-- Same. I phone/Skype interviewed with a bunch of schools in August, and I just got updates/campus invites in the last two weeks. Although we are all seriously stressed, schools probably are too. Budgets have been tight, and many schools aren't getting the lines they thought they were.||For E: Did the schools that recently contacted you give an explanation as to why they were back in the game, so to speak? If so, what did they say?||F, Not a word. Just apologized for the delay.||Unfortunately, silence seems be the norm. I have gone to multiple campus visits and have not heard a thing. It sucks.|
|1/7/2016||Since I have decided to stay for 6th year, I wonder what the market will look like this coming summer? as many people said this year's market is the best in terms of both numbers and qualities. Anyone is curious about this?||There's no way to know for sure, but indicators suggest that it will be a good market. Enrollments are climbing and the economy is good.||Do enrollments matter most or do retirements?||I think retirements matter, as well as advanced AP moving up.||This is just my experience, so could be wrong, but I don't think business APs getting promoted internally will have any affect on job openings for rookies (or anyone for that matter). If they move up while moving to a new school it will create an opening but genreally schools have XX number of tenure track positions and not XX number of assistant positions.||<-That's also my experience.||<- Is this year's job market really good?||You can go look at the last few years of job market spreadsheets but otherwise I think it's hard to know. The market seems really strong in some areas (entrep).||To H: Yes, this market was very strong.||This year was better than any market I've seen in 8 years. Lots of jobs. Lots of good opportunities. Go back to 2008-2009 to look at what awful looks like.||<-Agree. But you only talk about demand side not supply side. There have been also bunch of competitive candidates on the market. I've gotten emails from many schools and had chances to talk with faculties in their schools' search committees. They commonly said that they have had hard time choosing one person because there are too many good candidates. In that sense, competition is still fierce this year.||<- Agree, lots of really good candidates. I also had numerous schools tell me that they decided not to hire rookies (senior assistants and up). The wave of retirements has left many schools needing experienced teachers and researchers who can make immediate contributions.|
|1/7/2016||As the semester starts back up, and you start hearing back from schools again, I just wanted to remind you all that your worth as a human is NOT singularly determined on who calls you back or invites you out or which in your cohort gets an offer first. The job market can be very trying and soul-crushingly disappointing - I know, I've been through this twice! Hang in there, guys!||<----I fully agree. I recommend finding ways to take short (or long) breaks from the job search process to protect mental well-being and health. This can help us keep perspective too (which isn't alway so easy to do in the face of negative experiences). We are not solely defined by # of publications, teaching ratings, what our advisors think of us, or any other markers that our field uses for assessment. How we handle the ups and downs that life and work inevitably bring are what's within our control. It's good that we are using this forum to talk about such topics as we can then support one another! Cheering you all on....||Tough to remember this sometimes, but a great perspective.||Thank you, C and D! x2||Agreed w/other comments. Schools are also starting to receive word from assistant professors who are leaving their positions, which opens up new postings in this second wave.|
|1/5/2016||Any updates from Yale (OB)?|
|1/5/2016||Any news from Tulane?||They've re-opened their search. They made two offers and had one acceptance in the fall so I presume they're looking to make one more offer.|
|1/5/2016||Has anyone ever looked at (or know of) the empirical value of an A publication for graduating PhD students? I'm just thinking about base salaries; it wouldn't be too hard to figure out average starting base salaries of rookie professors at public universities and figure out how many A publications they had at graduation. |
In my mind (anecdotal evidence) says the first A publication is probably worth $10-15k to base salaries, the second probably another $15-20k. So a person with 2 A pubs would probably earn about $30k more per year than someone without an A pub. This is loosely based on the top job offers being in the $145-170 range and I'm assuming those are filled by people with 1-2 As.
|there may not be such a relation. top schools usually hire on potential/ideas and very often hires people with no publications (see hbs, mit, wharton). X 3||Outdated for current dollar amounts, but see Gomez-Mejia & Balkin (1992): http://www.jstor.org/stable/256535?seq=1#page_scan_tab_contents||I'd say at least in OB, HBS is clearly the exception. Most top schools (including MIT and especially Wharton) hire candidates with at least one, but most often multiple A-level publications. So from that perspective, the OP is probably conservative. One A level often lands a job a research or at least a balanced school. 2+ A levels almost always lands a job at a research school. Research school pay, including summer support, in the US: $160-$200k. Balanced school: $120-$140k. Teaching school: $90-110k. So having 2 As when you go on the market can possibly get you up to $100k more in starting salary!||To D: May or may not still hold true as the landscape may hve changed in the last 24 years...||OP: That article was great; it even projects the marginal value of top-tier pubs in 2011 to be about $10k (Table 6). I'm surprised one of the journal editors doesn't have one of his/her RAs do a follow-up study to see what the market looks like now. That would be a nice selling feature, "an article in our journal is worth $15k per year!!! but an article in our competitor is only worth $8k per year!"|
I'm still interested in other people's thoughts. I think E's comment could be right, and it's probably worth comparing total compensation (including summer support) as opposed to base salaries since summer support at top R1 schools is generally 2/9s (of a higher base to boot) compared to 1/9 at a balanced program. That extra 11.1% is significant (an added $15k+ per year) and increases the difference between a balanced and research school. Even if base salaries are relatively similar (say $125k and $135k) the yearly difference would be closer to $25k+.
|To kind of reinforce the point made be E: The top 20-50 schools that want to push into the top 20 (and especially the private ones) are usually the ones that pay a premium to attract the top people with 2+ A pubs in order to push into the top 20. Top schools are in a position to take a risk with someone who may "only" have 1 A or even just 1 R&R. If the person doesn't work out, they're still going to be a top school. So it's those schools right behind the elite for which A pubs matter the most, and they often pay $160-170 for 9 months, plus 2/9th summer support, for a total around $200k.||As of Jan 7… |
Is it safe to assume 1 A gets a balanced job (+$23k) and 2+ As gets a research job (+$23k +$36k)?
Obviously not a perfect assumption but not awful.
|Well, if we are looking at all the factors, your PhD-granting institution matters for a lot for research schools, particularly T10. They all seem to hire from each other, even though sometimes you look at a CV and the person has no As. That being said, you definitely can get your foot in the door at many research schools by having an A. For example, for UWash in OB, they don't really bring anyone out to interview who doesn't have an A. It's not 100% necessary- I know people who received offers from solid research schools, not coming from a top program, with 1st authored B pubs/R&Rs at As etc. With balanced schools, you definitely do not need an A to get your foot in the door or to get an offer, though it certainly helps. Often balanced schools are looking to see if you can lead a project...not if you have one 4th or 5th authored A. I'm just not so sure that the salary picture is as cut-and-dry as correlating your income to how many As you have.||<- The number of A pubs obviously isn't the only factor in future salary but I suspect it explains the largest portion of variance across the entire job market. The top 10 schools are probably an exception but I don't think that matters for more than a small number of people.|
Future salary =
# A pubs +
PhD granting institution +
Hiring school +
Negotiating skills +
# B pubs +
# A pub R&R +
# First authored pubs +
|1/5/2016||Has anyone heard an update or news from Villanova about the OB/HR job there?||It is listed as "filled" on the micro jobs page||I missed that--thanks!||Yes, an offer has been accepted.||What rank did they end up hiring (rookie, assistant professor, advanced assistant, etc.)?|
|1/4/2016||Happy New Year! For those of you still do not have a job, are you guys planning on a 6th year?||Way too early to ask that question - there's a lot of the market that hasn't cleared yet. Be patient :)||That's right. The AP market ain't over. And then there's the post-doc market.||decided for 6th year:(||E, please tell me that you're still trying though. As others have said, the market is still very much up and running!||Same as E – just because there are still jobs out there doesn't mean I want any of them. I'd rather stick around for a sixth year, get a few more papers in the pipeline, and try again for one of the schools I'm most interested in. I'm willing to give up some short term gain for better long-term employment.||Let's not be tooooo picky for our first jobs ;-)||<---Nothing wrong with a 6th year, either. Help build your CV to get a better job next year AND an extra year for tenure? Seems to make a lot more sense than taking a job now that might limit you||Same as E and G. Staying around for another year. I don't see anything wrong with that. I'd do that than to go to a place knowing that I won't be happy.||OP here: Good to know I am not the only one staying for a 6th.||<- Of course not. In fact, for research oriented schools, 6 years is probably the new median. 5 years is fast these days. 7 years also happens.||I wouldn't go as far as L to say that 5 is fast, but it's not a big deal to stick around a 6th year.||Some of the top candidates on the macro market this year all stayed six years. |
That being said, staying a sixth year and having the same CV from your fifth year is bad. An extra year will only help if you strengthen your CV. Staying and not getting more in the pipeline will probably hurt at R1 schools but probably won't make a difference at other programs.
|I vote we all stay for 10 years and then just demand to be hired as an Associate Prof in our first job. Think of the money it would save for universities...||<- Terrific idea! Everyone else should do this and leave the jobs for me!||When you guys talk about sixth year, does that count your MA? If I count the two years of my MA, I'm already in my sixth year! This is so depressing ...||Its unclear from the job doc how many jobs are still open and whether those schools will look at other candidates. How do I/we go about figuring out looking into these jobs?||Answering Q: If I count my masters I'm well into my seventh year. I'd rather not count my masters.||<-- That's good to know!||By masters do you mean the masters you get while pursuing your Ph.D? Or the masters you had prior?||You typically count the masters you get while pursuing your PhD (which basically means the first two years of coursework). You do not count the masters you had prior. So when someone says 7 years, that usually means 2 years of coursework, and 5 years of dissertation/research work.||It's never too early to start developing contingency plans. Considering an additional year doesn't mean you have to give up on this year. But, it seems foolish to just sit and hope that a job will come through. Make as many backup plans as you need to feel comfortable. Hope is great, but hope + action is better. I'm at an R1 and all of the rookies we had out for talks were in their 6th years. No one held that extra year against them. If they were up against someone in their 5th year it would have been a slight detriment, but since they were all in their 6th, it was apples to apples.||<-Exactly. I'm with L and W: 6 years is the norm for R1 schools. It's becoming increasingly rare to see someone with 1-2 As in their fifth year (i.e., really after only 4 years in the PhD program). Personally, I won't hold 6 years against anybody, but I'd think positively of someone who finishes in 5 years (and ends up at a R1 school).||What about a 7th year or a postdoc? Do people expect more from a 7th year student or a postdoc?||<- I would. If you don't have an A after a 7th year (which is the same as a postdoc if you took 5 years as a PhD; in fact, as a postdoc, you probably had a bit LESS time for research as you often have to teach more than a PhD student, plus you lose time with the move and getting used to a new place), chances of a job at a R1 should be very slim (unless, of course, you have an excellent pipeline with multiple R&Rs at A-levels).||Some people takes longer for reasons like family and kids, so which year you are in doesn't matter as much, as long as at the end of the day you have a decent publication record.||For what it's worth, I was someone who had to take a 6th year last year and this year landed a dream job at a top research school. It was definitely the right decision for me.||Yeah a 6th year really isn't held against people on the market, from my experience. Some of us (msyelf included, now being on the other side of the market) expect more from 6th years--your dissertation should be pretty much done, and I hope your CV looks better than the 5th years. But generally speaking I agree that it's becoming more and more common, especially with many R1s encouraging their students to take 6 years. If it's any more than that, and you took time off for a legit reason, it's something I would mention in an on-campus interview. You're not legally required to but after 7 years I would have some serious doubts without an explanation.|
|1/1/2016||Any news on IESE Entrepreneurship regarding interviews, offers?|
|1/1/2016||Any news on Imperial Entrepreneurship (re: interviews, offers)?||offer extended|
|12/30/2015||Any news on UMass Amherst (re: offers)?||As of last week, they had conducted their initial fly-outs and were considering offers.||the decision on offers should be already been made last week. the last step is to get approval from the Dean.||Offers have been made.|
|12/28/2015||What do you all know about the duration of summer support? I have been offered 2/9ths for 3 years, but I have hard other offers that include summer support through tenure. What are your experiences? Maybe duration of summer support would be a good field to add to future offer spreadhseets.||My understanding is that summer support is typically 2-3 years or aligns with the year of tenure review.||In my case, guaranteed summer support for the first 3 years and productivity-based thereafter.||My offer was 3 years as well, but I've seen as high as 6. Many people in the Offers tab added a comment in the cell with more details (like the exact duration) - just over over the cell to see more.||At research schools, it's common to have 3 years confirmed and then productivity-based afterwards (and, unless you're totally unproductive, you usually keep getting it).||My offer is consistent with F. The offer give summer support for the length of the contract but I was told than almost all research-active faculty get summer support||I had guaranteed summer support through tenure (up to 6 years), and then productivity based after that.||don't worry too much if you are guaranteed with 3. Unless you are totally unproductive, most people usually get at least 1 month of summer support at research schools.||E - thanks for pointing out the comment cells. That helps.|
|12/25/2015||Merry Christmas everyone! Whether you celebrate it or not...||You as well!|
|12/24/2015||Related to the below, how do you get on the editorial board of a journal? Do you ask for it or do you get invited?||The first thing is usually to publish in those journals. If you have a strong CV—showing that you've published in other top journals—you can email the EIC or AEs and mention your interest in reviewing. Then it takes months of regular reviewing—with good ratings for your reviews. Don't be late, accept all requests, and provide helpful, courteous feedback. Knowing the AEs or EICs is also very helpful.||Thanks, that's helpful. But who rates the reviews? The editor?||The action editor rates your review.||OP in the row below: I have 7As now, mostly first-author, but I still don't get asked to be ad-hoc that often. I wrote to AEs that accepted my papers/AEs that I know volunterring to be a reviewer already. Any ideas how to get more invites to be a reviewer?||As an advanced AP, why would you want to review MORE often? You have 7 As, so tenure is all but guaranteed - enjoy your life before all the admin work starts kicking in once you get promoted! ;-)||I would like to get on boards and potentially become an AE in the future. I don't see tenure as the end of my carrer :) |
Also, want to note that I only get 1 reviewer request from A outlets every two months. Is this the norm for assistants?
|<-That's about what I get. 5-7 a year from A outlets, maybe another 3-5 from B outlets. Not on any boards at this point, and no real desire to get on them unless I'm asked.||Side note, why would anyone WANT to review papers?||So true... based on the tone of many reviews, it seems like those who are eager to review do it to vent their frustrations ;-).|
|12/24/2015||Advanced Assistant here. Does anyone know the "path" to be an associate editor at an A outlet? I am about to get on the editorial board of two outlets and would like to know how board members are selected to be the next AEs. Besides doing good reviews, what other political things should I be aware of?||<- Review a lot, get really good ratings, make friends with current or recent AEs.||My impression is that different journals pick different types of profile for their AE. e.g. OrgScience vs AMJ. AMJ seems to pick mid-level scholars with 5-7 As, while Orgscience seems to go for more senior people as AE. but maybe just an impression?||<-- Not sure I agree with the description of AMJ editors.||<--Agreed. Check out their CVs. Very impressive, on average.||OP here: I have 7As now, mostly first-author, but I still don't get asked to be ad-hoc that often. I wrote to AEs that accepted my papers/AEs that I know volunterring to be a reviewer already. Any ideas how to get more invites to be a reviewer?||To OP: It sounds like you're doing everything you need to do. It'll come with time, you just need to be patient. I wouldn't place much value on getting an AE early in your career - yes, it signifies you publish a lot and are accomplished...but so does publishing a lot and being accomplished. Journals seem to go with a mix of elder statespeople and younger folks as AE's, so you'll eventually get the call, either ast the latter or as the former (or somewhere in between). In the meantime, like G says in the row above me, you may want to sit back and enjoy your free time while you're young, vs. trying to load up with more service now. :)||<- Great advice thank you.|
|12/23/2015||I guess similar to the questions below: How is ROB seen? A level? B level? Kind of in between?||ROB is listed as an A at my university (R1 - Big 10). However, my understanding is that it is "invite only" meaning that you have to have some type of name recognition to get anything in.||Any publication is better than no publication.||It's an invite only journal, with an excellent impact factor. Few schools will count it as an A, and it's certainly not an A when you are a junior person (i.e., you get on the paper with someone famous).||I don't know why my post got deleted, but ROB is a clear A at my school (RUVH).||It's basically the opposite of what E said: The impact factor is rather low, yet most schools will count it as an A.||<- Agreed.|
|12/22/2015||Where does AMLE fall on people's lists? Just curious because it's not listed in the journal tab.||B at best||Yes B or C. In addition the review process is tough, while the quality of reviews is often paradoxically low.||It's a niche journal given the content. B-level, probably. As in, it will probably help at balanced and especially teaching schools, but not at research schools.||I've seen it on some research school's list of journals (counting for tenure & earning a bonus for publishing in it) but not on others. Definitely school / department dependent. Personally, I like it, and the impact factor is high enough to "count" at most places.||If you have a cool AMLE paper (e.g., ranking scholars/schools/productivity) then it will draw you a lot of cites and get people talking. But certainly you won't get tenure because of it.|
|12/21/2015||At the risk of inciting a riotous discussion: How is HRMR valued? I know it isn't an "A" but where does it fall beyond that?||Interested to know others' opinions on this as well.||It's a B-/C. It won't help a CV but it cannot hurt. You might want to submit to HRMR if your paper has been dinged at AMR.||To be honest, I never even heard of this journal (I'm a senior assistant prof at a RUVH school in the US). So C-level? I should also mention that I'm in OB and don't to HR research at all.||it's useless, unless you are in a teaching-oriented school or a very low tier research school||<-Agreed. And contrary to D, I would say it CAN hurt if you're at a top school that prefers to have "clean" CVs with an almost exclusive focus on As. Maybe a couple of B/B+ journals would be OK, but this is more like a C-level.||If you are in HR, then a B. Simply because after PPsych, there really aren't any other outlets for HR that publish theory pieces (yes, yes, I know. JAP does once in a while and so does AMR. But go ahead and count them and you'll see that it is a trivial number). This one has the next highest impact factor.||Agree with H. For OBHR, HRMR is probably a B or B-. Impact factor is about 2.2, and in HR it's a well known journal. If you're out at PPsych, HRMR is next.||E here again. I didn't know it had such a respectable impact factor. So B-level then :-).|
|12/21/2015||If the job posting said they prefer advanced assitant professor, is it worth giving a try as a rookie?||Why not. Cost of applying is ~0.||I think depends on if they say they "prefer" or if they "want" (or something more definitive-sounding).||Umm...this may sound out there, but just ask them. Yes, it's low cost, but I always shoot them an email quick and sometimes they say "no thanks" other times they have said "sure, give it a shot"||If they can't get an advanced assistant, then they might drop to rookie.||THANKS for all suggestions:)|
|12/20/2015||Is it normal that a school made an offer to one person but did not inform other candidates? Even not responding to emails requesting updates?||Yes. They often think that it will turn other candidates off to know that they weren't the first, second, third pick.||Thank you, C.||Yes. Especially since it is not uncommon for the first candidate to turn down the offer, meaning the school might then go to their #2 pick. In the past few years I've been on a committee, this happened at least 50% of the time. In addition, the 2nd (and 3rd) choice of the committee were all great applicants, so we didn't want to tell our #2 about offering #1 because we would have hired both had two spots been open.||While I understand what C and E are saying, and I can see that telling someone they are a #2/#3 choice could turn some people off. However, it still seems to me a bit unprofessional to not at least respond to a status update request. This lack of response can, or in my case has, tempered my enthusiasm for a place I intereviewed.||Yes. If asked, they should tell you. If you don't ask, well, you probably know you are not first (but does it matter?)||If the school tells you that you are the second (or even third) choice, I would strongly advise that if you think that the school and position are really good you need to put your ego aside and recognize that there are many good candidates out there. If the school ultimately makes you an offer, it means they think that you are a good fit for the job with a high likelihood of success. My guess is that some people take themselves out of the running when a school tells them they are second or third, and that is a big mistake.|
|12/19/2015||Not sure if this is the best place for this question or not...what peer-reviewed outlets are available in the micro field for conceptual papers (not including AMR, HRMR, or OPR)...journals that specifically accept theoeretical papers only?||JOM, JOB, JAP, Human Relations take theory papers. <- Plus Org Sci and OBHDP.||I was wondering if any journals out there exclusively accept theoretical papers...as in only theoretical papers, no empirical papers||<--I don't know of any such journal. It's really only AMR as far as A-levels are concerned.||It seems that most people go to Org Sci after AMR||OrgSci does look at theory papers but reject/desk reject a large majority of them. Info coming from an AE to whom I wanted to send a theory piece||<-The same is true for JAP and OBHDP. That's why theory papers are so risky: If you don't get into AMR, chances of getting an A-level are slim.||Just try.||NO! Try not. Do. Or do not. There is no try.||<-May the force be with you!|
|12/18/2015||Any updates on the City University of Hong Kong Strategy position?||offer extended weeks ago x2||it is almost official that I cannot have a job at a tier one school this year...||is CUHK considered Tier 1?||CUHK = City University of HK or Chinese University of HK? The latter is more respected due to its long history but I suspect both pay well. City U is more like up-and-coming.||Research-wise City University of Hong Kong is a very good school. I have never heard of Chinese University of Hong Kong though.|
|12/17/2015||What happens to Suffolk? It re-opens its OB position...||The first search didn't work out so the search is being reopened. Still looking to hire for OB next fall.||This is not uncommon and provides "fuel" for the second wave of the market.|
|12/14/2015||At this stage in the job market, if you haven't gotten an offer yet should you (a) apply for postdocs (b) apply for visiting professorship positions (c) apply for lecturer positions (d) eat your sorrows away or (e) all of the above?||I hear you, same here, but no despair, lots of people still waiting, some schools begin the process only now, others restart, I just had 3 phone interviews||Isn't it still early? I have four fly-outs at good schools scheduled in January. I mean make sure you apply for a tenure-track position to ALL departments you would be happy to join.||Another option is to consider another year as a PhD student, especially if you have R&Rs.||Go and find an industry job||According to the "Candidate Interviews" tab, over 60% of the candidates have not accepted an offer. That means, a lot of schools processes are still ongoing. I am still waiting to hear back from schools where I went on a campus visit and I am still hearing from schools that want to schedule Skype/phone interviews. I know it is disheartening not to have a job in hand right now, but do not lose all hope! People in my university have gotten jobs as late as May. I would keep applying to tenure track positions and just to hedge your risk, apply to post docs and other positions if it makes you feel better.||I agree with E||Keep your chin up! I agree with D and G. As easy as it is to say, the reality is that the job search process can be long and fruitful even if it doesn't seem so right now. I am an advanced assistant professor whose job market activity picked up in the second wave. That said, it's always a good idea to consider all sorts of opportunities (like post-docs, etc.). I also recommend using the holidays as a time to take a mental break from all of this and come back in the new year re-charged. Taking care of yourself during this stressul process is of paramount importance.|
|12/14/2015||Any update from Texas Woman's, they have a lot of positions this year but haven't heard anything||some rejection emails sent, but no other news|
|12/14/2015||For schools hiring both visiting positions and tenure-track positions, if a candidate applies to both, what makes them choose that one candidate for either position? Is it best just to apply to one of the positions vs both?|
|12/14/2015||Do citations matter at all for the job market or (more likely) for tenure decisions? If so, what's the "magic number" (on, say, google scholar) for top research schools?||Citations for papers that have been out for a few years can come into play for tenure, but there usually isn't a magic number like there is with the overall number of pubs. You do want people in your field to know you for your letters, but actual citations are generally much more important for promotion to full.||For tenure, I heard at some top schools the magic number is 100 for web of science, and 300 for google scholar. If you hit these numbers, citations can't be held against you.||I've never heard anything like that. Citations are nice, to be sure, but most folks going up for tenure have fairly recent work that you're judging||At my school I heard it doesn't matter, but if you're in the hundreds on google scholar, it will be considered a plus and help you.||D's response is the norm. Agreed||<-For top research schools, right? Because 300 is a tall order for most of us...||A lot of schools care about the impact of your research. So if your work is not being cited, then it has little impact. When you're on the market you'll hear that a lot.....it's not just the number of A's but the impact etc etc||Good lord. If you don't have 300 by that point, then no one is really reading your research. I've heard many faculty say that you need at least 1000 for full. There are a number of assistant professors with 2000 (google scholar).||<- "Good lord"? 1000 for full at a top business school, OK, since citations grow exponentially. But you are awfully dismissive about that 300 number. Unless I'm mistaken, 5 year impact factors (i.e., average citations per article 5 years post publication) for A level management journals are between 5 and 10. Let's say they are 10. Google scholar citations tend to run 2-3 times higher, so let's say 25 citations is the average per A level article 5 years after publication. Normally you go up for tenure in your 6th or 7th year. So, this is totally unrealistic, but let's say you publish all of your typically required 5-7 As (at top business schools) 5 years before tenure. That would translate into 125-175 google scholar citations for 5-7 A level publications when you come up for tenure! So I agree with H and would say that 300 is a tall order for most assistant professors and a very respectable number for tenure.||Agree, J is really off. Given the lag time between publishing, your citation count is going to be highly dependent on your first 3-4 papers published, and it's rare to have 3-4 papers published garner you 300 cites. Unless you're talking about google scholar, which is more realistic. Assistant profs with 2000 cites are very much the exception, even at top tier b-schools. Or, they published meta-analyses (which tend to be viewed more negatively than original empirical/theoretical work).||300 google scholar citations for tenure is a realitic, ambitious number. Saying "no one is really reading your research" if you don't hit that number by the time you come up for tenure sounds very condescending. Ultimatley, it's not as important as the number of A-levels. I've never seen anybody with 7 A-levels not get tenure, but I have seen people with more than 1,000 google scholar cites not get tenure (just like I've seen people with fewer than 100 google scholar cites get tenure).||<- kind of shows you that the system is out of whack then, right? I'm willing to buy the idea that you can use impact factor of pubs for assistants because their work may not have had the chance to pay off. But ultimately, you want your work to be read and cited. You'd also want to avoid being a "one-hit wonder" on that front. Doesn't look good.||It always baffles me that people think being a "one hit wonder" is bad. Isn't it better to have one paper with 1,000 cites, and a bunch of papers with 10-100 cites, than to have a bunch of papers with 10-200 cites? Most people NEVER have that one hit but have a lot of reasonably impactful papers. So can someone explain this to me?||This is philosophical; some prefers to have 1 paper with 1,000 cites, others with a package of articles with 10-100 cites. Both are impactful in their own ways. Although I will dare say that top universities favor the former than the latter. Have seen some really 'big name' faculty with a 1-paper-with-1000-cites article, came to give a talk at the brownbag, and felt completely under-whleming (we were like, seriously?). Have also seen the opposite. Ultimately, it is your judgment call.|
|12/14/2015||What are the big schools that people are still waiting to hear from for possible talks? (absent schools coming back around)||I don't think that top-tier schools will open the second market. If they do not hire, they are most likely to wait until next year.||I think this depends on how critical their teaching needs are, rather than the size/quality of the school.|
|12/13/2015||What will all of you do over winter break? Keep incessantly working on research? Continue the dissertation? Prepare for the next semester/quarter? Or actually take some time to relax and visit friends/family?||i'm doing ABSOLUTELY nothing||Definitely relax and NOT work. What's the point of being in academia if you're not going to take time off during the breaks? ;-)||<-If only more people (especially here in the US) had that view...||<- it would make it easier for me to get a job||<- if done on a large scale, i think it would make life better for everyone (leading, among other things, to less depression)||I'm C and I'm in the US. It's a choice to have that view, don't be seduced by what everyone else tells you you "have" to do||I'm E and I've lived in Asia, Europe, and now in the US. I find it still surprising how much hard work is admired in this country and everybody tries to give off the impression that they work all the time, yet complain about constantly being super stressed and not having time to spend with family and friends. I guess Max Weber nailed it with his Protestant Ethic.||But working 18 hours a day and showing that you're stressed makes everyone think you're a valuable person, right? Right? Right?||Unfortunately, that does seem to be the case... :-(|
|12/12/2015||Sorry, it's a bit off topic, but what are the 3 or 4 clear A-levels in marketing?||Journal of Marketing, Journal of Marketing Research, Journal of Consumer Research, Marketing Science||<- Are these all unambiguous As or are there nuanced differences (e.g., AMJ and Org Sci are both As, but AMJ is probably a bit higher status; or for micro OB, JAP and OBHDP are both As, but JAP is probably a bit higher status)? In other words, are they all the same level or could you rank order them?||JCR=our AMJ||I'd say they're all unambiguous As; they are all A+ pubs for our marketing faculty. But they each have their own focus - JCR is focused on consumer behavior, so think of it as more psych-oriented, micro-management equivalent. I think Marketing Science is more focused on quantitative/modeling-type research. Just my impression as a management person who socializes with some marketing folks. Not an expert, so someone feel free to correct me if I'm wrong. No clue on the minute status differences, as in between OBHDP and JAP etc.||OP here, thanks for all the answers! If anybody has any more insights, I'd appreciate it (e.g., I knew JCR is more "micro", but what about JM or JMR?).|
|12/11/2015||Has the University of Southern California OB made invites?||It was just posted?||yes - all interviews done||this is it. i wont have a job this year :(||<-Sorry to hear. How many schools did you apply to?||Don't forget there will be more schools posting openings (tenure track, postdocs, visiting, etc.) in 2016. And I received an e-mail this week from a school that was re-opening their search. Have hope!|
|12/10/2015||What kind of things do moving expenses cover? Would the expenses for house hunting trips considered part of moving expenses? Thanks!||Yes, moving expenses usually cover a house hunting trip (in my experience with private universities).||Depends on University policy. I'm at a public University that excludes certain types of moving expenses because of State law. Be sure to do your homework.||Definitely ask the question to the department chair. They may be willing to add it but I do not think it is 'automatically' included in relocation expenses and may need to be approved ahead of time|
|12/10/2015||any updates on Georgetown Strategy?||? x3||Heard they are trying to extend invitations before Christmas and schedule visits in January after the AEA meeting|
|12/10/2015||any updates on NYU strategy?||invites have gone out||How many?||stern||Do they have multiple openings this year? Do they hire rookies or experienced assistant professors?|
|12/10/2015||any updates on northwestern kellogg OT? any offer made yet?||Haven't heard anything. x 2||Waiting waiting waiting||Internally decided. but waiting for the school approval before officially extending an offer||<-that's very helpful x2||Any new news here?||OP: nope. Maybe E could update us further? (Thanks!)||E here -- I don't know how soon the approval is done. The dept has selected top 3 candidates. If the first does not take an offer, it will go to the second. but, no more beyond the third. Hope it helps.||Thank you. so even the first offer hasn't gone out yet, as still waiting for school's approval?||Thanks E!||Rejection received||Did you receive it by email or phone? Email|
|12/10/2015||Any updates on the City University of Hong Kong HR position?||I think they invited 3-4 people between Oct. and Nov. but don't know what the ultimate outcome was, good luck!||thanks..... :( x3||Heard through the grapevine that CUHK made an offer. Not sure if accepted or not||<-heard it's been accpeted. :(|
|12/9/2015||So if top Psych journals (e.g., JPSP, Psych Science) don't help management department rankings, then how come top business schools (e.g., Stanford, Booth, etc.) enjoy hiring people that primarily publish in those journals? If they help top b school rankings, then shouldn't they help all b school rankings?||[Not sure why, but my answer was deleted!] <- Someone (probably accidentally) copied the question into this cell, deleting your answer, and then copied the question back to where it belongs. <- ok :)||In response to C, there are more than just a handful of schools where A-level psych pubs count as A-level pubs in a management group. There are probably around a dozen business schools that consist primarily of psych people (virtually all of them top business schools), around a dozen more that have recently given tenure to psych people (virtually all business schools that are "just below" the very top and trying to push in, or some international ones that like to have faculty members with Stanford/Booth/Columbia PhDs), and then around 10-20 more that recently hired psych people, so they may be opening up to psych journals as well. |
To answer the OP, my guess is that the very top schools don't need to worry as much about rankings. They will be considered very top schools anyway because of their name and status. Also, psych journals, on average, get more press than management journals, so hiring psych people allows these schools to have higher visibility beyond the academic community and be featured in the news. Finally (and I'm not saying I believe that personally), OB draws from psych/OT draws from sociology, but not really the other way around. So one could argue that you do more "fundamental" research by doing psych research that then influences and gets picked up by management research (similar to how top finance departments often consist of economists, with economics being the underlying discipline from which finance draws).
|<-Interesting. Psych PhD here thinking about OB. In these "psych friendly" OB groups, which psych journals are considered As? I'm guessing JPSP, Psych Science, JESP, PSPB plus the review ones (PB, PR, and PSPR) are naturally As, but any others (e.g., JEPG, or SPPS)?||<<-right. To answer the OP, it's a result of homophily. top bschools consist of psych people and those people like to hire others that are similar to them.. but any idea on how that trend started in the first place?||I have no idea if this is true or not, but I have heard that historically (like, 80+ years ago) the Ivy League schools decided as a group that they didn't want to do "applied" research, period - applied work just wasn't what the elites should be doing, woudn't get them prizes, etc. A side effect of this that there is no IO psychology departments at Ivy schools. |
Of course, since then, b-schools became a license to print money for universities (though interestingly, 2 Ivy schools to this day - Princeton and Brown - do not have b-schools). So perhaps the $$ convinced them it was ok to do "applied" research in the form of b-schools...but at the same time they still had the culture of looking down on applied research, so while they would have a b-school, it would be filled with those who do non-applied work (as D calls it, more "fundamental" research).
I have no idea if this is true. It somewhat fits some data, but I have no idea if it fits all the data. But I also have zero exposure to what Ivy League schools may have decided amongst themselves a century ago, and presumably no one has this info except the historians...
|<-Interesting and plausible speculation. Thanks for sharing!||In response to E: Yes, Psych Science, JPSP, JESP and PSPB are the usual go to journals for psych oriented OB departments (although, for some reasons, PSPB seems to be a bit less common than the other three). JEP:G would usually be considered an A-level journal as well. Not sure about SPPS; it's probably like JOM and considered an A at some places, and a B at others.||In response to G: this totally fits with a book chapter I read recently on the history of the field ("Understanding Organizations: Concepts and Controversies" in the Handbook of Social Psychology). The history the author relays is consistent with the narrative you suggest, even if he doesn't call out the Ivies specifically.||Hi J, G here - do you mind sharing the chapter cite? Thanks!||The info I gave in G should be sufficient to find it. It's by Jeff Pfeffer (great name). There's a preview of it on google books.||Psychologist who works at business school here. PSPB is not an A. It isn't in top Psych programs. And it isn't in B-schools. Least not top-tier ones. (And that was where my first publication was, so I'd love it if that were true). But it really doesn't count. My own department did a survey of what other top public schools called As. JPSP was the only psych journal that made the list more than 50% of the time. Many made allowances for Psych Bull and Psych Review as well.||<- I too am a psychologist and am amazed by this response. Like virtually everybody else who contributed to this Q&A and the journal ranking tab, folks at my PhD granting institution (top 5 social psych program), my post doc institution (top business school), and my current institution (top business school) count PSPB as an A (in addition to JPSP, JESP, and Psych Science). Psych Bull, Psych Review, and PSPR would probably count as As as well, but junior folks don't really publish (and are therefore not expected to publish) in those. If you want to get into the nitty gritty, I would probably say JPSP and Psych Science are "A+" journals, and JESP and PSPB are "A-" journals, but they would all "count" for tenure.||<- Sounds a bit like motivated cognition. Here's a list of top journals that was created by surveying a large number of top schools and seeing where the consensus is. http://mays.tamu.edu/department-of-management/rankings/. That isn't to say that B/B- journals like PSPB and SPPS may not count towards tenure at certain schools, but counting is not the same thing as being an A. An A is your first choice for your best work, no exceptions. Typically, these are top 5% eigenvalue journals.||Wow. This got to be more controversial than I would have thought. I've been working in Bschools (all Big 10) for over a decade and have never heard anyone call PSPB an A or seen the psychologists try to argue that it was. They are usually happy if they can get Psych Science and JPSP included on our lists. My impression is that the more psychologists try to push weak journals as alternatives to top Management journals, the more it makes it look like they don't belong.||To O: That link provides no information on psych journals. Calling PSPB and SPPS B/B- journals is laughable. Any self-respecting social psych department (note that I'm NOT saying OB department) will consider PSPB an A journal. The jury is still out on SPPS; most people I've talked to think it's an A-/B+ journal with the potential to be an A.||Honestly, I don't get how any of this is controversial at all. JPSP, JESP, and PSPB are the top social psychology journals for original empirical work. Psych Science is also an A, but that's multidisciplinary. This is based on being a member of the "social psych oriented OB scholars" for over 10 years now and knowing what people at most of the top business schools value. Sure, JPSP and Psych Science are a notch above JESP and PSPB, but that's similar to saying AMJ is a notch above Org Sci, or JAP is a notch above OBHDP. They're all As and all sought-after outlets for top research.||Interesting thread. I think R nailed it. O's post is way off the mark. P (who I'm guessing is also M) makes a bit more sense. At a Big 10 school, I'd be surprised if any psych journal is considered an A at a business school. They care about rankings, and psych journals aren't in the rankings. But my take is that if you count JPSP and Psych Science, you might as well count JESP and PSPB. Otherwise, it's like counting AMJ and JAP, but not counting Org Science and OBHDP (to use the parallel OB examples that R used, which I think are appropriate). I've been at 2 of those "top business schools" that mostly consist of social psych people in OB: As mentioned numerous times throughout this document, Psych Science, JPSP, JESP, and PSPB are the go to journals for these departments.||N to O: How is my post "motivated cognition"? And the link you provided says nothing about psych journals; it's only about management journals, so it's irrelevant to this discussion.||n: I think o (are we really doing this?) was noting that you directly said that PSPB counts in bschools. No one here cares about what counts in psych programs. Can we end this or move it over to the SPSP listserv where it belongs?||<- N here. Read the entire row please. It's clear that I meant that PSPB counts in bschools that value psych publications in the first place (which we all realize is a minority, but it's a growing minority and happens to be the case at most top bschools, as noted by the OP). And who made you the person who knows what people care about here? I think it's clear from the length of this discussion that people do care and that it belongs here. Once again, reading comprehension would have helped. Finally, O only provides a link to the tamu ranking, which only lists management pubs. Saying that PSPB and SPPS are B/B- journals makes that person lose all credibility in my eyes (I'm with Q on that one).||U was probably drunk. Surely that's the only explanation for saying no one here cares about this thread when this thread is literally one of the longest and most engaging threads of the entire document.||What I find hilarious/sad about this whole conversation (and the various iterations it's taken - here, on the journal ranking tab, in other parts of this tab, in past years, etc.) is how heated people get over what is essentially a bunch of N's of 1 - i.e. "At my school it is/isn't therefore it is/isn't!" Usually followed up with a "Although it differs, it generally is/isn't an A." And then an argument back and forth.|
Folks, everyone's just talking out their asses here in the absence of good, hard, data. Unless someone here has comprehensively surveyed b-schools (and no, "I have a friend who did a survey once and he/she said it was/wasn't an A" does not count; Texas A&M rankings also do not count, because they were not - to my knowledge, and contrary to what O says - developed based on a survey of all b-schools and the journals thye considered A's), they can't answer this question definitively, and so therefore no one should get so upset when other people have different views/experiences from them. Everyone's just exhibiting variations on the false consensus effect here anyways.
Given the amount of interest this topic always raises, someone should really do that comprehensive survey, and post the results for everyone to see, with each institution listing the A's they consider. I'd find that really interesting and informative.
<- I agree that this kind of survey would be ideal in some ways, but even then you run into problems. Some departments don’t have official lists, and people in the same department can have very different views on what is an A-level journal.
Having said that, I’m at a school that’s mostly considered in the top30/40 and we want to break into the top 20 so did some benchmarking. One of the objectives was to revise the list of As given the influx of psych people in OB groups (especially at top 20 schools), and we at he time had no idea how to evaluate those journals when looking at applicants. So what we did is we looked at around 30 psych people that recently got tenure at top 20 schools and looked at which journals they target. The results painted a very clear picture as 5 journals accounted for around 80% of all publications: Psych
Science, JESP, JPSP, PSPB, and OBHDP (and within that group, the first three – Psych Science, JESP, and JPSP – accounted for the bulk). Interestingly, most of them did not have a single A-level management pub other than OBHDP – which makes sense given that it’s very tough to publish experimental work in AMJ, JAP, ASQ, or Org Science.
Anyway, bottom line: Just looking at the publication records, it becomes clear that if any of these journals, especially the first three, would not have counted as A-levels, these people would not have gotten tenure. So I realize this is an imperfect, indirect assessment, but it does seem to align with what appears to be the majority view in this thread as well as in the journal ranking tab: In the OB groups that do value psych, Psych Science, JESP, JPSP, and (to a lesser extent) PSPB are to most sought after psych outlets. It becomes very clear once you look at the records of tenured professors at top schools.
|<-- Athough some schools don't have an official list, I suspect they would be in the minority. Accepting that all data is likely to be flawed in one sense or another, this survey approach may nevertheless be the best way to answer this question. |
I'd be a bit suspcious fo the results of what your school did simply because I could have 7 AMJ's and 4 JOB's and get tenure, but it sounds like based on your school's survey, JOB would therefore be considered an A journal (unless I'm missing something).
|<- We did it in a significantly more detailed than what I presented, but your example illustrates the flaw with our approach. However, in a larger sample of CVs of assistant professors who try to get tenure at top schools (where B-levels are usually discounted entirely), we made the assumption that if a journal keeps appearing over and over again, these junior profs were probably told that they should publish in that journal. I think that's a reasonable assumption. In top management departments that don't publish in psych, I doubt that you'd find a significant proportion of, say, JOBs in the CVs of successfully tenured people (again, looking only at the CVs up until tenure; I realize the proportion of B-levels often increases post-tenure). There probably also 4-5 dominant journals that account for 80% of publications and are A-levels (AMJ, AMR, JAP, Org Sci, OBHDP would be my guess).|
I should add that we did reach out to some colleagues in departments of psych oriented places, but most of them claimed that the school has no "official" list (as they evaluate the candidate in a more holistic way - I think that's often the official party line, but in reality the first thing most people do is count the number of As anyway). For what it's worth, we did get 6 lists, only 2 of which were "official", and 4 of which were (subjective) assessments of the professors we contacted. JPSP and Psych Science were As in all lists; JESP and PSPB were As in 5 lists (including the 2 official ones), and B+ in 1 list.
|I doubt anybody is ever going to do that survey. But we do have a reasonable n when looking at this row, some of the other rows below, and the journal ranking tab. Overall, what I take from all those data points is that in the "social psych OB world", JPSP and Psych Science are clear As, and JESP and PSPB are mostly As, although some consider them Bs.||<- That about sums it up!||To AB: Personally, I question the accuracy of the data in this document because it seems like quite often 10,000 people will suddenly appear out of nowhere when someone writes "x10000" to something. ;)||<- Sure, nothing is perfect, and the "x 10000" is obviously a joke. But as far as the discussion of which psych journals are A levels at the "psych OB departments" is concerned, it seems more or less unanimous that JPSP and Psych Science are As. Then there have been a few discussions as to the status of JESP and PSPB, with a lot of "in my experience BLA BLA BLA". The ones that actually provided a bit more concrete data (e.g., AA) seem to support that JESP and PSPB are As, albeit a bit lower status than JPSP and Psych Science. If you read social psych forums as well, then this aligns with how these journals get talked about there.||seems like a fair assessment||To X: I get what you're trying to say, but it's really not based on N=1, though. We talk to friends and colleagues at other institutions all the time at conferences, on the phone, via email, etc. E.g., if I get a PSPB through, mention it to people, and most of them say: "Great, another A-level!", or "Awesome, that's your Xth A-level now?", it stands to reason that there is a common perception in the field, at least among the people in my network, that PSPB is an A-level.||<-- I think the critical caveat here is "at least among the people in my network." The issue is generalizing that network to the field as a whole. Again, the only way around this is to do a survey. Otherwise someone could come on here and say "Both myself and my 10 friends say it's an A" (with 5 of those friends coming from the same school as the poster, and the other 5 coming from maybe 2 other schools similar to the poster's own school). Then one of those friends comes on and says "My 8 friends all say it's an A" (with those 8 being redundant with the original 10). Not saying that this is what happens, I'm just saying all these are just personal anecdotes and the only answer is a comprehensive survey. |
I largely agree with your (and AE's, and AB's) conclusion, I just personally would like to have some real quality data (or at least data with less obvious limitations) to support the conclusion. Perhaps particularly so given the potential for bias here (false consensus bias, self-enhancement bias for those who have published or see themselves publishing there one day, lack of independence among observations, the fact that this is mostly a survey of students and not people in official academic positions who would know the A list at their institution, etc.). Another way of thinking about this, given we're all academics: the informal polls on the Google Docs page are unlikely to survive the peer review process, and I'd want data that could get into a top-tier journal. :) (methodologically at least, the topic itself would rule out publishing in a top tier journal, unless you count AMLE to be a top tier journal).
|<-- Right, that's why I put it as a qualifier. The thing is, though, that the "social psych OB" community tends to be fairly close-knit and most people know each other. There are only 30 or so schools that value social psych to begin with. So my network is fairly dense and cohesive (sorry, Ron Burt and structural holes), but my friends and those I interact with most frequently tend to be spread across a good portion of these schools. Certainly way more than 2 schools, more to the tune of around a dozen. Anyway, that's just to clarify. I agree with your points and think they're great and I'd actually be interested in running the study you describe - but post-tenure :-). At my school, an AMLE wouldn't help me with that...|
|12/8/2015||STOP SORTING THE INTERVIEW TAB PEOPLE. I keep fixing it but some sneaky person(s) keep changing it back||Agreed x 1000||I changed Column A in the Micro Interview tab to be fixed numbers so we can easily sort on those. I don't know why these were dynamic to begin with.||MMM...sorting. I LOVE sorting. I am the sorting monster (I kind of look like Bowser from the old school nintendo). Bwahahahaha|
|12/8/2015||Generally speaking, about how long after the end of the last interview is a candidate contacted with an offer? And will the committee necessarily tell you if they made an offer to someone else first?||It depends on the school, on when faculty meet, if there's disagreement about who should receive the offer, if admin is difficult or time consuming in getting the the offer ok'd. Schools that are very transparent might tell you they offered the position to someone else, but others will just dodge your calls/emails until they know whether you'll get the offer or your're out. I know it sucks, but truly it is a mixed bag.|
|12/8/2015||How do expectations/content for job talks differ between research and balanced schools?||Yes.||<-Lol.||Care to elaborate? What would balance schools expect compared to research?||balanced schools will be more likely to ask you to teach a class during your interview||I have interviewed mostly at balanced schools. Most balance schools what a full research presentation. Some will ask you to talk about your teaching philosophy in the research presentation (or expect such) and some will ask you to do a teaching demonstration. Generally the more research-focused the school, the more questions they will want to ask during your research presentation (from what I know).||My research talks at balanced schools were basically the same as at research schools. Don't forget that a lot of balanced schools these days have at least a couple top-notch researchers publishing in As. The balanced schools want a candidate who does good research. The only difference is that some R1s expect to see your dissertation in (mostly) full, whereas a balanced school just wants to at least see a full empirical paper, from start to end. I did kind of a mix- I presented a first-authored empirical paper that led into my dissertation, but I didn't have my dissertation data yet. Worked well at both the balanced and research schools||Faculty at a balanced school here. Research is still a must; no difference - expect to see some data but theory development and interestingness of the research topic matter too. Depending on schedule you will be asked to do a teaching demonstration (usually half an hour). As long as you don't tank, you'll be OK.||OP: Thanks for sharing your experiences; very useful advice.|
|12/7/2015||What do people think about publishing in PLOS ONE? (it wasn't on the journal ranking tab)||It seems more appreciated in the psych world. I've been surprised that OB groups don't care much about Science either, despite its impact factor.||I'm very much entrenched in the psych world and can tell you that PLOS ONE is NOT considered an A-level. You might go there if your work gets rejected from the clear As (Psych Science, JESP, JPSP, etc.). Science, on the other hand, is literally one of the two most influential journals in the world. I simply don't understand and find it borderline ridiculous when OB groups don't count Science as an A (if the topic of the paper has organizational/managerial relevance).||<-- I think most schools wouldn't have Science on their list but, if someone published there, would recognize it as an A. It's not on A lists simply because publishing there is exceedingly rare for an OB researcher. The purpose of an "A" list isn't to list all journals that are good and faculty MIGHT publish in (such a list would be extremely long), but rather to list the department's view of common A journals for the field. If you publish in something that's not on your A list but is generally considered an "A", then it just becomes a matter of pointing this out to your dean/chair and convincing them.|
Back to the original topic, I second D's point about PLOS not being an A. As a potentially interesting aside, there are a few "hard science" people in my neighborhood and I ask them what the hard science view is of PLOS One, and it's universallly negative. So I think it's a bit funny that some non-hard-science places (e.g. psych, OB depts) view it as an "A", comparing it to Science/Nature, when hard science people who actually publish in Science/Nature view it as crap (well, based on my really small sample sie of my neighbors...).
|<--Great points. Unfortunately, I have encountered people that alltogether dismissed Science (because management folks don't read it regularly, so you're not contributing to the "management conversation", which I think is a very narrow-minded view of good scholarship). I have also encountered people who said "publish one Science, and you're tenured", which is of course a different extreme... |
As for PLOS One, I have yet to encounter anybody who thinks that's an A-level outlet. As E says, it can actually be seen as a negative, so I'd almost rather not publish something than publish it in PLOS One. The only way I can see how it can be a positive is if citations count for tenure decisions, in which case more publications are better than fewer.
|Plos one is a B to A- in the psych world. Science nature and maybe pnas are highly and increasingly valued in psych. You stand out if you have one of them. It seems that at least top OB schools are very interested in candidates with those as well (e.g. Stanford & Booth hired people with science or pnas last year)||Plos one is more like a B in the psych world, not sure if it would be considered an A- anywhere. But yes, Science and to a slightly lesser extent PNAS are fantastic outlets that (in my opinion) should be highly regarded across disciplines (as they are multidisciplinary). Nature, too, but I actually don't know of anybody in the business world who published in Nature.||<<-- agree. nature very rarely looks at human subject research, unless you get your xx million data from Facebook :p well I guess it makes it even more valuable if someone in psych/OB can actually publish in nature||As a PhD student I love starting my entry with "According to Wikipedia"... PLOS One operates a 'pay to publish' approach. Consequently it published over 30,000 articles in 2014 alone. I think that given the pay-to-publish approach it would be seen as a negative unless by some lucky stroke the article happened to be cited 10,000 times in a year. |
Publishing in PLOS ONE is not going to help get tenure at any research university.
|<--Yes, psych or OB, it doesn't matter, PLOS One is absolutely not an A-level journal.||Agree with J. I'm shocked that anyone considers PLUS One remotely close to an A journal. Although, if I can convince my employer it's an A journal I could have tenure in six months. I changed my mind. PLUS One is the only A level journal that should matter. All tenure decisions should be based on publishing in this journal.||Well, if you look at the impact factor, it *is* in line with many of our somewhat respected journals||<--And THAT (as was also illustrated by the lengthy discussion on JOM below) is the reason why impact factor is a very unreliable measure of journal status.||Or as some of my colleagues have told me "you told me journal X wasn't a top journal for years because its impact factor wasn't high enough. As soon as Journal X got an impact factor as high as ASQ, you now tell me impact factor doesn't matter". I think they have a point.||The point being...?||Not to restart the debate about JOM below (I really should keep my mouth shut) but each of us are trying to be scientists. Science tries to find objective measures to describe phenomenon so we don't have to rely on subjective opinions (which are riddled with bias and other problems, objective measures have bias too but not to the same extent). Subjectively a lot of people don't think JOM is an A but using the objective measures available it's hard for me to to not see JOM as an A if we also consider some traditional journals A. I'm open to changing my opinion if someone can present objective reasons why JOM shouldn't be an A while others should (I've seen one stat but I'm not willing to discount the totality of other measures because of one dissenting data point).|
The objective reasons I wouldn't consider PLUS One an A is the pay to publish system combined with the high acceptance rate.
Sorry, I really should have kept my mouth shut.
|It stands to reason that if PLOS ONE may have a high impact factor but still be a crap journal. Follow my logic:|
PLOS ONE publishes 15,000 articles each year (imagine the revenue they must have since it is a "pay to publish" journal ...but i digress). If 2% of those articles (300 articles) generate 5 citations each that is a totla of 1500 citations a year. By comparison AMR is published quarterly and only about 8-10 articles per issue. To generate the same citation count each article in AMR would have to be cited out the poop hole in order to even come close to the same number of citations.
Bottom line: ANY TIME YOU HAVE TO PAY TO PUBLISH AN ARTICLE IT IS NOT IN AN "A" LEVEL JOURNAL. The work itself could still be beneficial to the overall scientific community but the outlet is not an A level.
|To Q: You think JOM should be an A because it's impact factor is 6+. We examined JOM's A status at my institution in 2013. If you remove cites to review issues and cites to invited editorials, its 2013 impact factor is 3.88. In 2013, that trailed AMR, AMJ, JAP, and PP, and was very close to Org Science (3.81). Anyone can do these calculations--the data is all there on ISI and it's simple algebra. So, yes, JOM has impactful review pieces, much like Annals. But if it was a solely empirical journal with an impact factor of 3.88, these discussions would not be nearly as intense or as frequent. I'm less familiar with PLOS ONE, but would again suggest that impact factor is but one metric. And, given its noise, it's not the single most important one.||To R: I agree with the conclusion that Plos One is not an A-level journal, but you might want to read up on how impact factors are calculated because your calculations don't make sense (hint: it's on a per article basis). |
To Q and S: An impact factor of 3.88 is clearly A-level worthy. In most years, that's higher than OS, ASQ, SMJ, and OBHDP, all of which are usually considered A-levels. I don't think anybody can argue against JOM being an A-level based on impact factor, and that's not why my department decided to not include it in our list of A-levels. Ultimately, it comes down to what people in several rows below said: It's just not the first-choice journal to which you submit your best work. It's mostly a collection of articles that failed to make the cut at AMJ, ASQ, JAP, OS, OBHDP, and SMJ. Still, it's obviously an A-level at some schools, and an overall respected journal. Personally, I consider it a B+ journal.
|Would tend to agree that R's arguments would have a little more impact if he/she actually knew how the scores were calculated||S: And if you knock out this paper (https://pubpeer.com/publications/1E79BA4AA94EB722491B14AE871B0F), I think that their impact factor for primary empirical studies would drop by about another point. Impact factor's are heavily driven by a few high citation articles (no matter how badly flawed).|
PLOS ONE doesn't have a category specific to management which might be way it isn't an important journal in our field.
|12/7/2015||Kind of related to the post below: Does media attention matter for hiring or tenure? Many CVs these days have a section on media mention, and Altmetric scores start popping up as well.||Not really. It really depends on the work you do. It may give you a very very slight edge but it defintiively wont get you tenure or a job if you dont have the papers.||I think it can matter in borderline cases. Say your school says you need 6 As to be on the safe side for tenure, but you "only" have 5 As. If one or two of your pubs led to very high Altmetric scores, national and international media coverage, and maybe even radio or television appearances, so you are now "known" outside of academia, I think this kind of attention may push you over the edge. Obviously, if you only have 2 or 3 As, it won't matter, though.|
|12/7/2015||Just picking up on the comment in column K from the row below: Is the number of peer-reviewed A-level journals really the only thing that counts for tenure at a research oriented school? Do other things like service, teaching, media attention, etc. not count at all? I would like to think that if you knock it out of the park or are a total disaster in the classroom, it can matter, too...||Most schools say it's 50/40/10 (Researchteaching/Service) or something along that line, but when it really comes to tenure and promotion decisions, the other two components (TS) are just check marks. Research productivity overwhelmingly determine's one's case.||I agree with C but I'd say it's 60/24/15/1 - for research/"do we like you"/teaching/service. C's comment that teaching and service are just check marks are accurate (for research-oriented schools), though service is even less important, hence the "1" weight in my admittedly made up scheme. Teaching they want to make sure you aren't horrible, but you also don't need to excel (i.e. be average and you're fine). But the second most important facet is "do we like you". Even though you'll never see that mentioned in a breakdown of what determines if you get tenure, it's there nonetheless (though I'd minimize this weighting if you're in a unionized environment, where that wouldn't fly). No one wants to give tenure to a jerk.||I *have* seen teaching make a difference at a resaerch oriented but mid tier school. Candidate for tenure was borderline on their research, but was a "walk on water" teacher. His stellar teaching performance ended up making the difference. If he had been only average on teaching with the same record, he would not have gotten tenure. N=1, so your milage may vary.||<- I agree in that I've heard from a few people at research schools that teaching can make the difference if your case is borderline in terms of research. So if you're one of the best or one of the worst teachers at the school, it can matter for tenure decisions.|