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Thread NominationsHackNayrzFireburnLevel 56OmfugaThe Trap GodCKW
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Gothitelle: A >> A-I think this rank is ideal for match up reliant mons. It's impossible to make good teams with this but it doesn't mean it can't cheese people. It should drop but it is still suspect worthy. This isn't a paradox for me in any way as things can be super dumb to have in a meta while still actually being bad (think: moody). And Gothitelle is still far from bad which A- reflectsGothitelle's role / strength hasn't decreased but its current dip in usage has folks wondering if that's actually the case. I think A is fine, bouncing this around every update when someone loses to it in an important game doesn't sound very ideal.AbstainAt the moment, the teams being used are offensive enough to make sure goth doesn't pose a problem to them. In general, making a solid team with goth is not an easy thing to do in the current meta so I think it should drop to A- for now. Gothitelle should be banned from ubers. It was broken in SM and is equally effective now. No reason it should drop.This isn't a mon that should move around because of the belief that "meta trends are bad for it". First of all, that claim is false, considering the best playstyles rn have defensive backbones. This generally means you'll still see support arcs, lugias, passive steels, etc. It is still as effective as it was before and usage shouldn't be an argument either. Should realistically be banned but until then it can remain in A.Current metagame does not favour Gothitelle that much. Standard teams are generally offense oriented, This is why you will notice the drop in its usage as well. The two are co-related after all. It's also pretty difficult to build a team around it without having a weakspot that can be punishable by common threats. At the moment, I am looking at Gothitelle as a cteam Pokemon. Once the metagame starts drooling over fat balance and stalls, this can rise but for now, drop this to A- imo
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Gothitelle: A >> A+See aboveAs good as it is at its role, Gothitelle's effectiveness every game varies a lot. This is what actually stops it from being in the higher ranks. When the game favors Gothitelle, it warps it incredibly hard. When it doesn't... its hard to say it should be A+ / SAbstainSee aboveHesitant to warrant a rise for goth as well when I don't see it used enough in tournament play. Viability rankings should be more practical than theoretical tbh. So, until goth gets more usage, I wont say it should rise.I think A is more reasonable, as it is a suitable ranking for a Pokemon as potent as Gothitelle. The A ranking is also reflective of Goth's flaws, such as running into do-nothing matchups.^^
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Dawn Wings Necrozma: C+ >> DI guess C- is more suitableI look at the mons in D and don't really feel that Dawn Wings is one of them. While we rank Ultra seperately, I think there's some wiggle room to have some of Ultra's viability rub off on Dawn. Special Ultra is best from Dawn I'd say.It's not completely unviable with TR/Ultra Necro shenanigans but its not great either. C- maybe.Anywhere in C or C- is fine with meSignificantly stronger than lunala, so not completely unviable, but still pretty bad. Should drop but not to D.ok chill ubers community its not nearly as unusable as the current D mons. Drop to C is ok.Agree with Nayrz and the others; it's not comparable in terms of viablity with D rank Pokemon but its certainly not deserving of C+. TR is quite right now so yeah, maybe you can pull off some sneaky wins with it. C-, Below Darkrai
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Mega Lucario: B >> B+I have faced it a few times and I can say I always end up in trouble vs it unless I run marsh/ultra necro. And even then it's not easy to handle. Great vs Gengar teams, I think it should be B+ for sureIts decent in some matchups, by which I mean it can pick a coverage option to take something specific out, and also does well on webs. Low B+?
I don't feel too strongly about this, Mash makes it more reliable which is nice. Sure.Meta is pretty offensive right now which is a good thing for lucario as there's less bulky stuff to tank its strong stab moves paired with adaptability so I agree Lucario can still be super threatening to certain teams, and meteor mash is a nice buff. Fine with this.hell yea this shit is fire as fuck. you destroy spd dusk mane teams cuz it runs mono steel coverage, and since they have spd dusk mane they run offensive pdon. this means after an SD you most likely destroy their entire team if you have webs support. Edge/Ice punch are pretty strong rn as well. mono dark ygod is a thing too these days. people often underprepare for this menace too since they tunnel vision onto mgar/mence when prepping for possible megas.Absolute menace with Sticky Web support. Pretty decent outside of that too as it can smack any team that aren't prepared for it. Balance / BO is the wave which MLuc does pretty well against. Yes
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Marshadow: A+ >> SMarsh is the ultimate offensive support mon, no S for this, it's good but not good enoughWhen looking to the other S rank mons its a bit difficult to say Marshadow does as much as they do in every matchup. This same argument could have applied to Xerneas in earlier metagames though, so this is difficult to call. I'll leave it to the others, but I lean towards no.Marsh is super good but unlike PDon/Dusk you aren't compelled to use it on most teams. I think A+ is fine where it is.Was favoring this at first, but after looking more closely, marsh comes insanely close to S but doesn't make it by a very little distance. Its easy to fit on teams and both of its sets are cool vs any kind of build. But when you look at the current S ranked mons, marshadow comes close to them in terms of usefulness but not close enough to sit with them. That's probably because marshadow's sets can be checked depending on the match up. Life orb set somewhat struggles vs balance but is solid vs offense and Z set lacks the power to dent offensive teams but is good vs balance. This is what makes me think it falls short of S On the fence here, but gonna say no for now, only because uber's standard of an S rank pokemon is necrozma and pdon and I don't think its fair to compare anything else.its pretty strong and solid at what it does, but it does have bad matchups. great anti offense mon that stops the bleeding from real threats but u dont ever see it clean much because team comps are so solid these days vs marsh. it also prevents u from running a more busted rker in the form of mgar because marsh + gar comps are really bad generally speaking. not having mgar means u also have to pressure fairyceus in some way to allow marsh to ever break thru. Marshadow can be placed in any kind of team and will often play an important role in any game. There are very few games where you can find Marsh to be useful. Life Orb set is easily the most threatening set and I highly disagree with the idea that it can't dent bulkier teams. The only flaw of this mon is the fact that you are restricted to 4 moves lol; Run Pursuit on bulkier balance teams if you need to trap Mgar and Goth or use Rock Tomb if you find your team gettin walled by Ho-Oh, or just go with the safe choice of HP Ice. Great revenge killer; very good versus offense. Has a massive impact on teambuilding and gameplay so i don't see why you this mon can't be S.
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Dusk Mane Necrozma: S >> A+Nah this mon is too versatile and threatening. And equally good at supporting if you choose that route. It's like Dialga in BW all over againI just can't dig it. The arguments already presented for Dusk have not wavered at all since the creation of the VR. The metagame is more or less stabilizing around it, yet its still incredibly good with whatever set its running.Disagree strongly, Dusk Mane Necrozma is amazing on both offense and defense and is worthy of S rank.Disagree. Being the best Xerneas check and not being useless outside of that alone makes it S rank. It does what its supposed to do both offensively and defensively so this should stay in S Nah. Should be used on just about every team still. If anything its closer to S+ rank, but maybe slightly held back because of ultra necro.LOLShould remain S. Dusk Mane is very versatile; support set does its job pretty well and double dance is a menace for every team, neccessitating a check for it. Being a Xerneas check improves its case a lot as well. This thing won't be going down for a while.
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Xerneas: A+ >> SSurely A+ material. 1/3 of most teams can check it.Xerneas is still one of the main things to prepare for... but the pokemon that beat it would still be very good if it didn't exist. Dusk and Pdon are not being held in S because of their ability to beat Xerneas, but they are a big plus... Xerneas still makes the most sense at A+ to me. Even Geomancy sets are being used as a wallbreaker in tour games over an actual sweeper. I don't quite get the usage of specs atm. Scarf is still the best set it has but easily counteracted. Each set also has the same stops... why move it to S?Its hard to recommend this for S when PDon and Dusk counter it and are so ubiquitous. Gonna say no for now.Scarf set is still good as ever and the geomancy set is still something to prepare for. But where the actual problem comes from is being easily checked by Dusk Mane Necrozma which is S rank. So as long as this exists, I can't see this climbing to SStill hard countered by the second-best mon in the tier and solidly checked by the best mon in the tier. Defog and aroma, plus fairy typing in general are all still amazing though.its still good but rarely gonna pull off sweeps. its really good at forcing sequences and punishing opponents for underpreparing (bringing steels like ferro/celes). if they bring the solid checks like mag/dusk mane, you can take advantage of these with other mons really easily. offensive dusk mane takes damage and loses its ability to do anything to you for the rest of the game since you force it to take damage (similar concept vs pdon, especially since they're offensive). spd dusk mane/magearna get taken advantage of hard by other things as well since they're passive enough to lose momentum if forced to come in. spd dusk mane can be trapped by gar/goth and if u burn any non SD dusk with gar, u can actually pull off crazy z geo xern sweeps (roar don doesnt exist so u can actually run resttalk on it too). xern has some things going for it, but its nowhere near as broken as it was when it was S. This is A+ material like yveltal.The two most versatile Pokemon in the metagame are also the two most viable Pokemon and they both check Xerneas. Most of the viable teams will have an answer to Xerneas because of this. Having Xerneas in S would sound pretty contradictory imo. You can look at the different Xerneas set and notice how all of them are stopped one way or the other. GeoXern can't sweep 80% of the time. Scarf is arguably its best set but easy to check. Choice Specs is a webs thing imo. Oh and Z-Geo is a joke now. Can't really say Xerneas is as good as Dusk Mane with these drawbacks.
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Naganadel: B+ >> B / B-I have lost to this but it seems really hard to build around so it should drop to B-This was probably placed too high due to new toy syndrome. It needs to z-move to break anything... and its a Dragon z-move. It's potentially good with predictions... but thats not worth building around. low BB is fine, its not bad but its poor bulk + reliance on Z-move are problematic.Good on paper but in games it seems to be pretty mediocre so this should drop. B somewhere is fineDrop to B. That's where I ranked it initially. It's a fine mon, tbh.not sure what teams this actually beats? drop is warranted especially cuz of how frail it is. also needs z to break anything and thats prediction reliantRelies a lot on making good predictions to be effective. Pretty hard to setup as well. B seems fitting.
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Arceus-Ghost: B- >> BI think it's overall decent I mean. Doesn't need a raise thoughI honestly have no idea. SD still seems to exist on webs, Hack mentioned a support set can exist on stall... but idk if that's enough to put it at B. Lack of usage makes it hard to call.AbstainI haven't seen it in a while in tour play so abstain for nowAbstain. Haven't seen it used enough.abstainNot as viable as any of the mons in B-rank imo. Arceus-Ghost's niche is very miniscule and that is reflected pretty well in the meta, as it is very less used
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Tapu Koko: Unranked >> C+ Why does this need to be rankedIt has the capability to be an annoyance. Weakening grounds, offensively handling Yveltal and other birds... Electric Terrain as well as its moveset gives it something to work with that no other mon is capable of. Gigavolt Havoc >>>> Guardian of Alola though. C- because I don't want to overrate this.
C-. It's not THAT strong but it checks Yveltal and can be annoying with its speed tier and Nature's Madness/Taunt.Definitely needs to be ranked. Can do some nice things. C- is fine Maybe to C- or C. Koko's not awful. its z-move is really good and checking yveltal is always nice.C- is fine i guess but its still pretty bad lolChecks Yveltal, weakens ground-types, fun pivot. Gets 50% off of anything. Electric Terrain isn't used much but ig you are a perfect smeargle counter now? Blocks Rest too so maybe its worth C- .
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Ultra Necrozma: A- >> AI think of it as a part of dusk mane overall which makes duskmane more versatile and better. So it's impossible for me to rank this standalone and it's bs we are doing it this way. If you play a game against duskmane you can't possible count out the possibility of ultra and therefore you need to play vs duskmane in a way so you don't lose to different possible sets. Ultra adds a set to duskmane therefore I'm gonna abstain from ranking thisI think the initial assessment we had is pretty accurate. Its fine in A-.Current ranking is fine.Fine where it is now Fine where it is.seems fine where it is. still very potent and the A- ranking reflects on the negative takeaways of running this pokemon.Neither has it overperformed nor has it underperformed. A- is fine
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Ultra Necrozma: A- >> B+see aboveSame.See above^^^^^^
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Yveltal: S >> A+For me it's in between S and A+ so I could be fine with a drop. It has a lot of utility in is in many ways like Marshadow: great offensive support mon. But Yveltal comes with added versatility so it is clearly better than Marshadow. However, it is true in general that defog on defensive sets doesn't work, scarf being bad, and there being certain sets of mons it could check that just break through. So I'm gonna abstainIf S- existed I'd probably put Marshadow and Yveltal in there. I still don't see it as A+ tier.The main argument for dropping this seems to be "Scarf Yveltal sucks," which I don't think is that compelling of an argument since it isn't a bad set in of itself and its other sets are still super strong. I think people are underrating how versatile and powerful this mon is, especially when the ever-present PDon/Dusk easily shut down a lot of its answers.What nayrz says is on point. Agree with himYveltal's still really busted. Don't see a reason to drop it.the main argument isnt "scarf yveltal sucks" @fireburn. the main argument is that defog sucks, scarf sucks vs all playstyles (and if u wanted to argue it beats HO, its still deadweight vs everything else), life orb lacks longevity to do anything vs non HO teams (SR and life orb chip destroy this set, on top of the prevalent magearna and fairyceus, or even other support arcs), taunt toxic is walled by magearna teams and isnt that great vs HO teams either. Theres significant significant drawbacks on every set. Did the introduction of duskmane really make this mon S tier? It still gets blown back by rp + z dusk unless u partner with another pokemon that takes on rp dusk. its not doing the primary work vs dusk, the ogre or waterceus or defensive ho oh is. open your eyes all, theres no huge shift that could warrant yveltal raising to S tier in the transition from SM to USM in the first place. quit telling me "its so broken" but not telling me what specifically made it S tier worthy in the transition to USM.Hits really hard; it's switchins are pretty easy to take advantage of but then not all of its sets are great so maybe drop it to A+? I think its more viable than other A+ ranks but then it's not as versatile or as threatening as Dusk Mane in practice. Agree with Nayrz
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Deoxys-A: Lower in B+AgreeUSM really didn't want my ORAS build coming back... the obstacles Deo-A needs to get past are many at the moment so a little dip is fine.I can see it, Yveltal and Dusk aren't easy for it to get past.Hard to make it work when there's much secure stuff that can break through teams so agreeAbstain. agreeAgree, there's too much going against Deoxy-A to make it as good as it was in SM meta.
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Scolipede: Unranked >> C / C+Unrank is fine like who the fuck brought this up I swear I only created this mon in XY as a meme to beat Deo-S spam it was never goodIt could work on ladder but so could most mons with suicide hazards.
Defog Ho-Oh is actually a thing which makes the Pede even worse off by comparison, gonna say no.AbstainAbstain.theres better lead spikers/tspikers. theres no niche in this meta that makes scoli better than the other options.Unranked. This Pokemon's niche is non-existent
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Bronzong: Unranked >> RankedOTRSo its a much lesser Dusk that doesn't lose to Arceus-Ground? That is really specific... I have many doubts here so I'll go with no.Zong is like Mega Diancie where it does a lot of things, but its worse at any one of its jobs than other mons. I think its worth ranking for role compression utility alone but it should not be ranked highly, low C/C- probably.I don't see any reason to use this over Dusk Mane Necrozma so in worst case C- is fine Abstainworse dusk mane that is also trapped by stag users consistently. spd dusk mane isnt even taken on that well by support groundy so literally zong>dusk is just for sd groundy? sounds like a bad time. non fire move don isnt a thing either. this can stay unranked lmao.Why use this instead of Dusk Mane? Oh checks SD Groundceus and....non fire coverage pdon? I guess that's a really small niche but it's still a niche. C- seems ok
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Internal NominationsNominee / Reasoning
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Ho-Oh: "higher" (currently A)(Hack) - Ho-oh higher. Idrk where it is but it is really good against all my teams and stuffFor sure - Defog is a big thing right now and I feel its gonna cause an impact on common SR mons.
Defog set is actually good, never thought I'd see the day. I'd put it above POgre in A.Looking at other member's opinions, I agreeHo-oh's really lame as always because the toxic set doesn't have great counterplay and is extremely hard to kill. Plus, regenerator was a mistake (thx gamefreak). Defog set is good, I like it. Could see a raise.only reason this mon is good is cuz of defog. if u guys think defog is good enough to warrant a raise, then i agree as well. other sets are underwhelming imoDefog's been on the rise. That sets actually pretty good (never thought I'd say this). I look at most of my teams and they are easily screwed by Ho-Oh. Top of A or above Primal Kyogre is best imo.
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Arceus-Water: A- >> A(Nayrz) - Considering how many teams make use of this mon it seems very odd to me for it to be underneath things like Rayquaza and Ultra Necrozma. We all know what it does already.It's so passive but like. Sure?hey i nominated these...I can get behind a rise to bottom of A. Dual status Arc-Water (Wisp/Tox) aint bad.I feel like it should be in A- on top. Its good at what its supposed to do but not A materialArceus-water will always be awful.Yea its probably the most usable arceus form rn. best glue mon that helps pivot around things like ogre/mixed pdons/ygods etc which are very popular.It's used as a glue on a ton of teams. Checks Primal Kyogre, Mixed Pdon, Yveltal. Dual Status can mess up a ton of physical attackers too. Downside to this mon is that it faces a great deal of problems because of 4MMS. You ideally pick what you would rather be walled by. I'm fine with either bottom of A or top of A-.
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Magearna: A- >> A(Nayrz) Same argument as Arceus-Water, but I think Magearna should follow it as well despite being at the top of A- already.
Is specs+duskmane viable? If so then it should riseSure. Its the most solid Yveltal check around and offers pivoting utility + a blanket answer to CM Arceus + Fairy check.Yeah its much better now. Agree Magearna should rise. I'm not a fan of the pokemon but due to the dominance of yveltal, plus magearna being the only steel type that can counter flyceus, I think it's better now.ygod being big means you're running this or some darkceus/fairyceus on teams with defensive backbones. fairyceus gets annoyed by mgar and fairyceus/darkceus get annoyed by taunt tox ygod as well. magearna beats ygod other than the niche heat wave, which can be scouted for. it also beats these other popular ygod checks, while having the added benefit of being a support steel that isnt trapped by STAG. ofc this should raiseWith Yveltal, Darkceus, and Arceus-Fairy everywhere, there are even more reasons to run Magearna on bulkier teams; not to mention its new toy in heal bell is fire and Magearna is great at using it as well. Agree
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Dialga: C+ >> C / C- / D(Nayrz + The Trap God) After struggling with others to make a usable set for its analysis it became clear finding a proper niche for Dialga is extremely difficult when Dusk Mane exists. It has offensive pressure vs some Defog mons over Dusk... that's it.C is fineI agree.AgreeAgreerip dialga.... until gen 8 primal formPrimal Dialga when? Agree
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Arceus-Dark: B+ >> lower in B+ / B(Nayrz) yes, its that time of the year.This mon sucks in generalAbstain.AbstainCould go either way tbh. I think darkceus is fine where it is but I'll abstain because im not too sure.i think a huge aspect of running it before was to check ygod but the best ygod set rn (taunt tox) beats this. ygod is a huge deal rn since psychics were introduced meaning arcfairy/magearna are more popular. so ya all these factors make darkceus pretty bad rn, agree with the nom.Abstain
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Mega Diancie: B- >> C+(Nayrz) This does a few things but badly. Pretty hard to justify without extensive support and the question of the mega slot cost.I've never played vs this or considered this on a team. I agreeHas too much trouble dealing with Arceus and Dusk Mane Necrozma lols at it, agree with dropping.Agree. Its pretty useless Agreed, walled by so much and wastes a mega slot.agree, but if u got mindgames on deck its probs OP. shoutout to the ladder lords who run this effectively, u know who u are.Faces way too many problems in the tier; Arceus formes and Dusk Mane is a huge main for it. Agree
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Arceus-Flying: B+ >> A-(Omfuga)So yeah I was thinking about it and... SR weak sucks. Yeah it does most things well in theory and fitting duskmane checks isn't impossible. But considering how weak it is before boosting in combination with the SR weak (ho-oh and yveltal doesn't have the same issue) means it will just sit around spamming recovery to get out of KO range from things like Marsh early-mid game. For me it needs hazards off to be dangerous which you can say about Ho-oh/Yveltal as well but these mons actually deal instant damage. So I think it should stayI'm honestly not sure. Its about as much of a Pdon pivot as Yveltal is, and both of them get owned by Overheat. A rise to like the top of B+ seems better than have it fighting the other A- mons, because I feel those are all slightly "better". If Arceus-Water / Magearna do leave A- then this is fine in A-.Flyceus is nice. One of the few offensive Marshadow checks, is a pretty good soft answer to PDon and its ability to beat most Steel-types 1v1 not named SD Dusk Mane or Magearna shouldn't be overlooked. I can get behind a raise to A-.I think this has enough potential to rise. Not that easy to go through stuff like magearna / celesteela etc but it can do some nice things. Bottom of A- is fine I thinkNeeds solid dual dance dusk mane checks, but crushes spdef dusk mane and every other steel (except magearna and maybe celest). Also a really nice marshadow counter.Seems fine, though you do take up an arc slot. idk how relevant that is though considering its probably better in most cases to not use arc at all these days looolYeah sounds good. Checks Marshadow and Yveltal. Sets up on Arceus every viable support Arceus forme, support Dusk Mane is a setup fodder. I think it sets up on every good steel apart from Magearna but lets not forget how good mag is rn. DD Dusk Mane checks are almost mandatory if you runnin Arceus-Flying. There are enough drawbacks to stop it from going higher than the mid-point of A- imo.
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Celesteela: B+ > "huge drop"(The Trap God)yeAbout as useful as Skarmory at the moment considering common sets on the mons it once handled can make it deadweight. Gothitelle also exists. B-Meta is pretty hostile to it atm, B/B- drop seems good.B somewhere is fine.Agree, not sure where.if we're in agreement, B- sounds goodB- seems fitting
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Alolan Muk: C >> Unranked(The Trap God)abstainWhy run it? I agree with this.
Yea sure, Muk doesn't seem to be worth the teamslot these days with TTar/Marshadow asserting themselves as stronger and more versatile Pursuit users.AbstainAbstainI mean it is techincally usable, but is it good enough to promote usage of this non-ubers mon in legitimate play when there are better options? nopeI don't see much reasoning behind having this Pokemon ranked. Other Pursuit trappers simply do more and better stuff than AloMuk. Unrank plz
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Mega Tyranitar: B- >> C+(CKW)abstainHas a niche but its difficult to make real use of. This seems fair.SureAgreeAgreeAgreeCan't be equally as viable as other B- Pokemon imo. Difficult to make use in practice
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