3-22-12 #LangChat
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dr_dmd3/23/127:58 PMHello everyone, welcome to #langchat ! Don here in Napa, with a glass of red Napa wine to celebrate the start of Spring Break! Much needed!
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dr_dmd3/23/127:59 PMTonite's #langchat question is > > How to support students motivated by grades in a society expecting grades for everything? Thoughts?
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SECottrell3/23/128:00 PMMost progressive educators today talk about grades with a certain tone in their voice - what is so bad about them? #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:00 PMGood evening #langchat RT @dr_dmd How to support students motivated by grades in a society expecting grades for everything
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dr_dmd3/23/128:01 PM#langchat Yes, and parents also become quite animated about grades. How do we respond?
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SECottrell3/23/128:01 PM@dr_dmd Hey there! Looks like it's just us for the moment :) #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:01 PMGood evening @SECottrell My #langchat team partner!
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jas3473/23/128:02 PMhello all! student teacher in French from Lexington, KY! #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:02 PM@dr_dmd glad to hear you're on Spring Break - I expect #langchat will be quiet for a few weeks as we move through Spring Breaks
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:02 PM@SECottrell grades are strictly academic constructions, artificial replacements for real feedback #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:02 PMhi!! I've been waiting for this one ;) #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:03 PMFor us with the Hope Scholarship which represents reduced/free tuition the grade is everything #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:03 PM@dr_dmd until the day we can convince parents, admins, & colleges, we suck it up #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:03 PM#langchat When students are asking, I ask them to look at the rubric with me, and ask them to rate themselves. Works well w/good rubrics!
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SECottrell3/23/128:03 PMRT @SraSpanglish: grades are artificial replacements for real feedback #langchat
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SraCasey3/23/128:03 PM#langchat we need to determine what a grade represents
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SECottrell3/23/128:03 PMAh, here we go - welcome @SraSpanglish @cadamsf1 @jas347 #langchat :)
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cadamsf13/23/128:04 PMoop sorry reduced free tuition for college #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:04 PM@cadamsf1 Same for us with KEYS, so perhaps a problem is that we tie too much to grades #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:04 PMWelcome to all our #langchat peeps! Good to see you all.
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SraCasey3/23/128:04 PM#langchat Define real feedback
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SECottrell3/23/128:04 PMHow do you feel in the world of grades? #langchat
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jas3473/23/128:05 PMat my new placement Im having trouble motivating students at all... #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:05 PM@SraCasey real feedback: specific comments designed to help students improve, understand #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:05 PM@SraSpanglish my baby step this year was to remove grades from assessments (the papers students get) - have to look online for it #langchat
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SraCasey3/23/128:05 PM#langchat should a grade be a comparison of the progress of the individual student instead of a standard percentage?
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dr_dmd3/23/128:05 PM#langchat Are grades really a problem if our rubrics are strong and standards based?
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SECottrell3/23/128:05 PM@SraCasey feedback - information that tells a student where they're at and how to get where they want to be #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:06 PM@SraCasey Ooh, interesting concept #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:06 PM#langchat Can we make grades work with our standards?
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jas3473/23/128:06 PMhard to make anything relevant and motivating when some have already failed for the year :-/ #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:06 PMRT @SECottrell: @SraCasey feedback - information that tells a student where they're at and how to get where they want to be #langchat
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SraCasey3/23/128:07 PM#langchat Should a test grade be set in stone, or should it be a temporary assessment of progress? - allow retakes!!!
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:07 PM@dr_dmd kids ignore rubrics, just look for grade, but there's something about tailored wording #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:07 PM#langchat Do we need to "grade" everything to have an accurate assessment of student performance at end of term??
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cadamsf13/23/128:07 PMI really like the book I read that measured what grades should be- and in that case it is mastery and allows them chances to reach #langchat
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jas3473/23/128:07 PMin the short time I've been grading, I feel like it's more about pointing out what they DONT know than what they DO. #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:08 PMRT @jas347: assessing is not the same thing as grading! #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:08 PMbut I have to tie a grade to the assessment so "exceeding" is A, "meeting" is B, "approaching" is C, but I record this online #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:08 PM@dr_dmd of course not and I think getting kids to reflect and make corrections should count #langchat
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jas3473/23/128:08 PMassessing is not the same thing as grading! #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:08 PM@dr_dmd following example of some @JCPSWorldLang teachers, my rubric talks about proficiency, nothing about grades #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:08 PMRT @SECottrell: @SraSpanglish my baby step this year was to remove grades from assessments (the papers students get) - have to look online for it #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:08 PM@dr_dmd I think so if we can accept the fact that everyone will not always be an A. In other countries I believe they accept that #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:09 PMRT @jas347: assessing is not the same thing as grading! #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:09 PMRT @SraCasey: #langchat allow retakes!!! // systematic improvement is a way of life, why not in schools? #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:09 PM@jas347 I constantly strugge with that! hard to avoid! #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:09 PMRT @SECottrell: @dr_dmd following example of some @JCPSWorldLang teachers, my rubric talks about proficiency, nothing about grades #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:09 PMRT @jas347: assessing is not the same thing as grading! #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:09 PMRT @SraCasey: #langchat Should a test grade be set in stone, or should it be a temporary assessment of progress? - allow retakes!!!
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dr_dmd3/23/128:09 PM#langchat Why do kids ignore rubrics? Are there ways to make SS use them?
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:10 PM@SraCasey retakes are so easily abused--then assessment means nothing 1st time for grubbers #langchat
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jas3473/23/128:10 PM@SraSpanglish especially when that's what students want! #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:10 PMRT @SECottrell: RT @SraCasey: #langchat allow retakes!!! // systematic improvement is a way of life, why not in schools? #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:10 PM@dr_dmd because they don't "mean" anything only the letter or number and until we can change the "grade speak" it will continue #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:10 PMmy problem with grades - so often it's an arbitrary number that represents nothing, like participation grades or exit tickets #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:10 PMRT @SECottrell: but I have to tie a grade to the assessment so "exceeding" is A, "meeting" is B, "approaching" is C, but I record this online #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:11 PM@SrtaLisa This was the first time they had me and seemed to take it as part of my different approach to learning #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:11 PMRT @SECottrell: my problem with grades - so often it's an arbitrary number that represents nothing, like participation grades or exit tickets #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:11 PMand then we tie things like college entrance to that number that doesn't represent much #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:11 PM#langchat Please understand all my questions as intended to support reflection not criticism - just in case!
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cadamsf13/23/128:11 PM@SECottrell I allowed my sts time to redo and "do" until it was done well and ohhh the problems I had with the registrar #langchat
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SraCasey3/23/128:12 PM#langchat If retakes provide the Aha! moment, and true comprehension is finally accomplished, isn't that what we are wanting to achieve?
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:12 PM@SECottrell exit slips, participation grades=extrinsic motivation for intrinsically unmotivated #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:12 PM#langchat My Fr1 ss had a reflection guide to accompany project presentations today. They completed the rubric for themsleves and their team
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nnaditz3/23/128:12 PM@SECottrell @sracasey allow retakes extra support, practice and/or tutoring #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:12 PMAlso we used to be forced to take 25-50-100 % off for 1-2-3 days late, which doesn't represent proficiency at ALL #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:13 PMRT @SraCasey: If retakes provide the Aha! moment, and true comprehen is finally accomplished, isnt that what we want to achieve? #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:13 PM@SraSpanglish so speaking of motivation... #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:13 PM@SraCasey @SraSpanglish indeed and amen #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:13 PMThis year I've adjusted my late policy to allow for, well, life, and it's worked really well #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:14 PMRT @SECottrell: Our question is specifically about motivation - what problems do you see with students who are motivated by grades? #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:14 PMIn a college prep school teaching an elective, I see a lot of kids motivated by the almighty A #langchat
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nnaditz3/23/128:14 PM@SECottrell I also allow late homework for full credit but must do it in my room so they can get help and not just copy #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:14 PM@SECottrell same here and I found that kids didn't really abuse it. There's a diff between grading for achievement and work habits #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:14 PMRT @nnaditz: @SECottrell @sracasey allow retakes extra support, practice and/or tutoring #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:14 PMOur question is specifically about motivation - what problems do you see with students who are motivated by grades? #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:14 PM#langchat The team was able to self-assess and see what grade they earned. A=exceeds, B=proficient, C=approaching, no D's F=did not do yet
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RonieWebster3/23/128:15 PM@SECottrell Students motivated by grades often don't even care if they have learned anything or have skills. #langchat
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dr_dmd3/23/128:15 PM#langchat Even grade based motivation CAN be relearned and redefined - we need to think differently in the 21st Cent paradigm
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SECottrell3/23/128:15 PM@cadamsf1 good one - so motivation by grades seems to lessen creativity #langchat (sounds like Drive by @DanielPink!)
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SECottrell3/23/128:15 PM@nnaditz do you ever get kids just putting it off because they can? #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:15 PM@SECottrell They will only work hard enough to attain the number in the rubric box- little creativity etc #langchat
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Nunavut_Tweeter3/23/128:16 PMRT @SECottrell: I hate to see an attitude that doesn't care how proficient they're getting, but rather what number is on the paper #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:16 PM@cadamsf1 I have done redos until contracts satisfied in Eng classes--it was hard but fruitful #langchat
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trescolumnae3/23/128:16 PMRT @SECottrell: my problem with grades - so often it's an arbitrary number that represents nothing, like participation grades or exit tickets #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:16 PMI hate to see an attitude that doesn't care how proficient they're getting, but rather what number is on the paper #langchat
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SrtaLisa3/23/128:16 PM@nnaditz I like your late homework policy. with our school policy we have to accept late work, and it is not always original #langchat
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trescolumnae3/23/128:17 PM@SECottrell @SraSpanglish Yes! And have you noticed that the teachers who have those types of grades often boast of "rigor" #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:17 PMRT @SECottrell: @nnaditz do you ever get kids just putting it off because they can? #langchat Oh HECK yeah, and quality still low
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esantacruz133/23/128:17 PMRT @SECottrell: I hate to see an attitude that doesn't care how proficient they're getting, but rather what number is on the paper #langchat
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YasmineAllen3/23/128:17 PMI thinks it's important for students to do retakes with a focus on improvement, not necessarily for a higher grade. #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:17 PM@dr_dmd help me see what you are saying? #langchat
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SraSpanglish3/23/128:17 PM@SECottrell I hate it too, but what is the remedy? #langchat
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esantacruz133/23/128:17 PMRT @RonieWebster: @SECottrell Students motivated by grades often don't even care if they have learned anything or have skills. #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:18 PMmy other problem is that they will drop or their parents will threaten to pull them if they can't make an A or B #langchat
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SECottrell3/23/128:18 PMAlso, on the proficiency levels my students know they cannot hit advanced without sustained past tense & idioms #langchat
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jas3473/23/128:18 PMfew of my students are worried about proficiency, they're worried about getting their 2 years seat time to graduate. #langchat
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cadamsf13/23/128:18 PM@SraSpanglish exactly if we want them to learn then we must meet them #langchat
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3-22-12 #LangChat