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ThoughtsScumeterText
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Fluff0Hey guys, roflstomp INCOMING
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Fluff0Wait, why does it matter that we sign our names?
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Fluff0Also, Clockwork hydra sounds like scum
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Fluff0Its just annoying to sign my post
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Deck based things are irrelevant0Hello everyone, MG here.

I'm playing Group Hug featuring Veteran Explorer, Collective Voyage, and Minds Aglow. My current hand doesn't have any of these cards, so I'm going to mulligan until I find one or hit 4 cards. I would love to play an untapped land and resolve one of the Join Forces cards to get us all off to a quicker start, so please refrain from casting spells until I see what cards Artanis deals me.

On the 0/X creatures debate, I'm running Axebane Guardians and Overgrown Battlements for the purpose of fueling group card drawing effects. My reasoning is that, as the town outnumbers scum quite heavily, accelerating everyone will be of net benefit to the town. The mafia creature really isn't that much better than a CMC 6-8 creature, so getting everyone into that position will be my top priority for the first few turns. These creatures will be tapped for mana for the vast majority of the time, so it shouldn't impact your reads on blockers


Cheers,
MG
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Fluff0EBWOP: Artanis just dealt me a hand with Island and Minds Aglow. How would everyone be for drawing a bunch of cards? :D
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Fluff0It must have been him, I just got back from class.
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Fluff0
How long do people have to contribute mana for Join Forces effects?

I'll be leaving in an hour and a half. If fewer than 5 other players have voiced an opinion on Minds Aglow by then, I'm going to hold onto it for now until everyone is aware of it.
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Fluff0Alternatively, I can mulligan again and hope to find Collective Voyage, which I'd argue is a much stronger turn 1 play. I'm not sure what the odds on that would be, but I think it's

1 - ((4 ncr 0)(56 ncr 5))/(60 ncr 5) ~= 30% of hitting one or more copies.

MG
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Fluff0Because if I use it turn 1, I can hope to find Collective Voyage for turn 2 :D
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Fluff0Everyone will draw the combined X value, so everyone's looking at drawing 10+ cards this turn.
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Fluff0So let me rephrase my two lines of play:

1) Cast Minds Aglow T1, hope to hit Collective Voyage (very high odds if we do all draw ~10 cards), Collective Voyage T2, everyone has ~20 lands in play for T3.

2) Mulligan, hope to draw Collective Voyage (30%, I checked the math), everyone has ~10 lands in play for T2.

I like the first one - it's much safer, and leaves us all in a much stronger position on T3. Thoughts, everyone?
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Fluff0To further expand on plan 1)

Cast Minds Aglow T1, hope to hit Collective Voyage (77% if we do all draw ~10 cards), Collective Voyage T2, everyone has ~20 lands in play for T3.
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Fluff0No, you get the combined X of cards, so 18 :D
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Fluff0filter
EBWOP: 17, because I would only have one untapped land after casting it.
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Why would you not expect non-basics when we can pull anything.... Still, scumeter reads 0.0Yes, but the subsequent line of play would be Collective Voyage from me on T2, so you could discard all of your low-impact cards with the virtual guarantee that you'd be able to resolve almost anything on T3. I mean, apart from the all-nonbasics deck, but I wasn't expecting that here.

I personally think that this is the best thing that the town can expect to do on the first few turns, and I'm only waiting for more people to post and acknowledge the plan before playing my Island and casting Minds Aglow.
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Fluff0
It's an investment for turn 3 - the details are on the last page, if you didn't catch them. What else would you be doing this turn, anyways?
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Fluff0That's rather evasive. You can scumhunt independently of casting spells, and I say everyone should be scumhunting by default.

Let me rephrase my question - what else would you be doing with your mana this turn?
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Wrong.0Players who don't contribute mana don't get the effect. We'd definitely want everyone in on it, both because it increases the bonus for everyone, and because the entire point of this line of play is to get everyone to an equally stronger position by T3. It would be actively bad to have a few players left out of it.
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Wronger.0Hold on a sec, iGrok. I'm going to assume that you've misread the card and my line of reasoning, and not that you're deliberately attempting to create confusion.

Here are the possible outcomes of Minds Aglow:

A) Everyone pays 2 mana. Everyone draws 17 cards.
B) Some players pay 2 mana. The players who paid, and only the players who paid, draw some number of cards. The other players get nothing.

There is no way for everyone to draw a small number of cards. If everyone pays only 1 mana for some reason, we'd all still be drawing 9 cards. The only other alternative is to exclude some players from drawing cards, and this early in the game, I see absolutely no reason to do that.
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Says CH is right, not me, even though I'm the one who said the right thing multiple times. If scum, possible subtle setup
I was right though.		1EBWOP: Never mind! Clockwork Hydra is right. I still don't see a reason for players to opt out, but hey, that just means that my decision is made even easier.
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Says "Make scummy players pay for MA". This is a good town plan if he follows through with it. -3You are correct, and I apologize for misreading the card :D. Everyone chooses whether or not to contribute to the X, but everyone, regardless of whether they paid or not, draws X cards. That being the case, I'm totally down with your earlier plan to make scummier players and lurkers pay for it.
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Minor focus rather than tunneling. Good.-2Okay, I have to go in 15 minutes, so here are my thoughts on what I've seen so far:

1) I'm going to cast Minds Aglow, tapping my Island and Forest. With no evidence for a mill deck, I would suggest that everyone voluntarily pay into it so that I can increase my odds of drawing Collective Voyage and thus setting everyone up for T3.

2) Otherwise, default to (DF)TP's plan, and I'd say that iGrok and Marv are the scummiest to me right now, because of iGrok's still-unresolved quip, and Marv's utter lack of thread presence. RockHydra and Stutters are null.

So, iGrok, please answer the question. What else would you be casting today?
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All these misconceptions were your own damn fault...0I haven't casted anything. I'm just re-posting my conclusions here before I leave, partially so that Oats can follow my train of thought when he sees the thread, and partially because I wanted to clear up any remaining misconceptions about what Minds Aglow actually does.
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Points out that DFTP is hyper-aggressive. Says MA discussion over. Null-tell0Dont fear, it was his first post and he is leading into something, you seem AWFULLY quick to attack everybody.
Yes I think that disscussion for Minds Aglow has run its course, but it wasnt all useless.
/Oats
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Bites back, more MA talk-1What pressure? IT WAS 1 post.

Actually I think minds aglow helps everybody, not just town. So why wont 'scummy' people contribute mana? Then they can start actually 1 shotting people.
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Calls out CH on being full of shit.

which he is btw		-1CH
They/you spent a LOT of time bickering about useless stuff (not just setup, but completely pointless stuff about setup)
Then your ENTIRE page 2 filter is whether minds aglow is good, WHICH IT IS.
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You agreed with the plan before.
Yeah I don't understand that either actually...

Then why are you trying to give town all that power?
Seriously this goes completely against your actions. Either extremely stupid or scum.		7Did you not say that only scummy players contribute mana towards Minds Aglow?
Then you said that it gives them a chance to look 'townie'

Also, yes town can actually have some teeth, but this is also good for scum in the sense that a Vig is good for scum. More often than not, Vig's shoot town. Same with lynches.
I would think that scum would want to get enough 'power' to 1 shot people as fast as possible to reduce the number of townies, thats why the card is also good for them
/Oats
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Same as above3hances.
Do you know how probability works?
there are 8 targets, 6 of them are town.
so you hitting town is 75%. Which are really bad odds.
Of course its not static, I could have a town read on a scum and then it becomes 6 town 1 scum, reducing the chances even more.
Its day 1, CH.
I have confidence in my reads, I dont see how that affects my previous statment
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Fluff0Not at the moment, no.
So DontFear, are you saying that we dont use the card?
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More accusing CH, still no pressure0Well all I gotta do is prove that Im town, which has not been a problem so far. I would say im leaning scum on CH, not a strong read though
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very true statement-2Ok for you, the reason why you want me to play Minds Aglow is to play 20 skeletons.

That is the only reason so dont be all so 'herp derp town more cards = better'
So do you disagree with my point? Or what.
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This completely disagrees with what he was saying earlier... so he's gone back and forth 3 times in the first 24hrs... And then he flips again in the same post.

You can't say "Stronger Everybody = good" and "but not objectively good". That doesn't make sense		4Dude, did you even read my post? I don't mention zombies at all. In fact, I talk in general terms. Stronger everybody = good for town.
Of course you dont want to say that you are a selfish bastard.
I agree that the more cards you get, and the more mana you can play, the better it is for you. Also better for scum.

Town getting stronger is better because scum already start with a big fat 8/8 monster.

HOWEVER what I am saying is that its not objectively good for town.
There are pro's and con's for playing that card and all you seem to be doing is saying how good it is for town.
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Its like he doesn't understand the card even though he's corrected himself about it after being corrected about it multiple times.

And all this comes after "theres been enough discussion"		5My apologies

On January 29 2013 12:27 Oatsmaster wrote:
All plays that involve people drawing cards are good for EVERYBODY.
CH, explain how scum would not want to contribute mana regardless?
Also, if you say only the scummy players contribute mana, you are giving scum a free out to 'prove' that they are town


On January 29 2013 13:13 Oatsmaster wrote:
Vig's are pro town, but in a game with no lurkers, the main target of vigi hits, Chances are that they are gonna hit town. Except now we have 7 vigis.


/Oats
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You don't have killpower in what you've told us...1I assume DontFear is Gonzaw for now.
The mafia creature is unblockable right? So putting a 'tank' like 0/1 is useless, which means that yeah I support the decision to play attacking creatures. HOWEVER, this also helps scum because then they can use their other creatures to attack the player they want to kill.

Im not sure that Im in favour of having to convince people in order to kill my scum read, especially if I can do it myself.
I realise that yes, its like a lynch.
DontFear, can you concisely say what do you think town should do?
/Oats
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Lol. Maybe you should read what I type then.

But its worth noticing that THIS is the first time he says to lynch anybody.		0IGrok has posted absolutely nothing of use so far, only like 3 serious posts.
Really not looking good.

This post especially
On January 29 2013 08:27 Aperture Science wrote:
GreYMisT is afk for a few days... I'm lonely

Like he is roleplaying, then goes into serious mode, then goes into roleplaying.
Lynch him.
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Suggesting awful policy.1On January 29 2013 18:02 Oatsmaster wrote:
Well, I dont think that the 'voting' system will work to well cause you cant really enforce people to 'vote'.

Ok what do you guys think about a lynch all lurker's policy, where we hit the person with the lowest post count with all that we got?


How do you guys do this?..
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Fluff0Explain why its terrible.
That way we dont kill people who are lurking that are town because it really really annoys me when people just lurk the shit out of a game.

I dont necessarily disagree with your plan, I just think mine is better
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This plan makes sense, but is so obvious... its like newbie game scumhunting.

"Look at lurkers, but not JUST them, just start there"

And now he thinks that we should only spend a few mana on MA... So much flipping!		1On January 29 2013 21:11 Oatsmaster wrote:
Well the point of my policy is to find the lowest poster and DISCUSS whether we hit him or not.
The lowest poster thing is not objective, town can make quality posts and scum can make quantity posts. So we go up the line and find the scummiest person, using Lowest post count as a guideline rather than our 'feel'


Well Crossfire's entrance is similar to marvs,
I think this is weird though
I only think a few mana total should be used on it because I don't think it is wise to discard so many cards because that's wasteful.
And then he never mentions that again, even though I feel that its a good point if a bit vague, which means that he shouldve discussed it. I get generally noobness feel from him, not alignment indicative though
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Lol. So many assumptions have been done already.1I think aperture science is being particularly useless.
SuckonmyTopdeck was also only inactive for a short period of time.


However I think before 24 hours, its premature to assume anything
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FluffOn January 30 2013 00:44 Oatsmaster wrote:
Im not actually sure, you have to ask MG about it.
Aperture Science, stop being useless and play.
Who do you want dead right now?


SO DIFFICULT.
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Wants to know everyone's deck premise. As a group-hug deck, you don't care about that. So if it isn't alignment indicative as he claims, why does he want to know? Something weird is going on in that bit.

Death Grasp isn't a win condition. It is a Vigi shot though, especially if he loaded his deck with 20 basic lands.

MG appears to be sane.		1Hello everyone, MG here again.

I strongly agree with disclosing your deck's premise, as a few of us have already. It's not alignment-indicative, at least in the sense that everyone made their decks before receiving their alignment, so there's no causal link there.

In the previous game, people claimed that this would be a bad idea, because it would give scum a better of idea of who to target. Well, in this case, my game plan is to make everyone a potential powerhouse by leveraging card advantage and our numerical advantage. It won't matter who the scum target, because every single town player will have the resources in place to fight back. Speaking of which, my deck's win-condition is Death Grasp.

I only have a half hour between classes, but I'll try and address any concerns that crop up. I'm still waiting for a post from Nova, and Aperture Science still hasn't answered the question of what he would play on these upcoming two turns if not contributing to Join Forces. That's worth keeping in mind.


Cheers,
MG
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How does scum start with a 3 turn clock?1I'm going to have to respectively disagree. There are very few lifegain effects that powerful, considering that scum start with a 3-turn clock, and everyone will be adding threats to the board in short order.

What are your thoughts on players besides Aperture Science?
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Everyone won't have 20 land. Many people will have 6 or fewer lands. This is bad magic logic. Not indicative of alignment UNLESS the otehr scum is playing a deck with basic lands. So, look for someone playing basic lands if Bin is scumYou must have missed my earlier post on the extended plan involving Minds Aglow. I'll dig it up for you:

On January 29 2013 09:45 BinOnFire wrote:
To further expand on plan 1)

Cast Minds Aglow T1, hope to hit Collective Voyage (77% if we do all draw ~10 cards), Collective Voyage T2, everyone has ~20 lands in play for T3.


Everyone drawing cards might not be pro-town, I agree, but everyone having upwards of 20 land by turn 3 is most assuredly good for us: even if the scum players can kill two of us immediately, it's still a 5v2, with a pretty clear indicator of alignment.
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MG is the voice of reasonI'm off to class again, be back in ~8 hours. Oh, and for the record, I strongly disagree with Oats' plan to consider attacking people on the basis of their postcounts. And I don't say that just because we have the second highest postcount (behind gonzaw/prome :D)


Cheers,
MG
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Its possible that this was a deliberate attempt to set me off. If so, it would derail the thread for several hours at least, and possible push a townie out of the game.2QQ more.
/Oats
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FluffOn January 30 2013 10:03 Oatsmaster wrote:
Look Igrok,
You cant dick around and then post something about you not having fun cause there are people attacking you cause you ARE NOT PLAYING LIKE A TOWNIE.
Yes, I can be obnoxious, arrogant, and hostile. These can be useful. I can also be fun, but you've got to be fun with me. To me, mafia is a game - if you aren't having fun while playing it you're doing it wrong. I'd rather have fun and lose than win by ruining the game for everyone. But if you ruin it for me, I'll do the same right back.

This is QQ, right here.

Everyone else seems interested in finding scum out and winning the game. You dont, so far.
/Oats
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Minor push to DFTPDont Fear,
Can you post a scum read and reasons? Lotta non scum reads in your filter

/Oats
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FluffOh I can cast it now?
*MINDBLOWN*
I really need to learn how to play MTG
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Weren't you planning on playing defensive cards? Axebanes, etc?

I don't like his because he is calling people out for planning to do similar things to what Bin is planning to to.		2On January 29 2013 14:27 Crossfire99 wrote:
Uh, yeah unless I'm not understanding the magic part correctly. Basically, what you seem to be advocating (feel free to correct me if I misunderstood you) is that people shouldn't play cards which can keep them alive longer. This would be the equivalent of someone fighting to survive a mislynch in a regular game. You don't just want to roll over and die. That only helps scum.

This post is really weird,
Playing defensive creatures is equivalent to asking a medic to protect you, not defending your mislynch.
You can do that by convincing other players not to attack you.
This sounds like he is setting up himself to play some defensive cards, which scum would want cause they can block all creatures if they have enough and thus, be invincible while killing everyone else with the MONSTER.
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Ok, so Bin can write off everything provacative as Oats, and MG comes in as the voice of reason.Hey everyone, it's MG again. I've seen enough of this silly back-and-forth, and will presently be casting Minds Aglow. Bottoms up, gentlemen!

ApertureScience, feel free attacking me: I'll hopefully have drawn Collective Voyage next turn, and then my primary work is done . Luckily for you, I'm still not getting a scumread from you yet, so I can only hope that you'll take some time off and cool down.

##Play: Island
##Cast: Minds Aglow


Cheers,
MG
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FluffEBWOP: Whoops Oats already cast it. I thought we'd all decided to post that kind of thing in-thread, no?
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FluffEBWOP: And before I forget:

##Tap Forest: Pay 1 for Join Forces
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Scumeter:40%
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Fluff:43%
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Verdict:Moderate Suspicion of Scumminess.

Factors:
1). Flip Flopping: Bin changes his mind extremely often. Even within the same post. This means his mind is already made up as to his action, and he's just saying what he can to appear most townie.
2). Schizophrenic: Its really weird how Oats is this extremely hostile personality who apparently knows very little about magic, while MG is cool, calm, and collected. It lets him get away with more things than usual. If I were scum, this would be the perfect cover.
3). Derailing: Bin starts or prolongs many arguments. This ties in with the previous two factors in that he prolongs them well after he has stated that the arguments have been discussed enough.
4). Deck Lies: Death Grasp isn't a win condition unless you can get 20 lands out. Its a survival condition. It also works VERY well with the mafia creature. Which means either he's scum or is lying about his deck, which means he's scum.
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