| A | B | C | D | E | F | |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|---|
1 | username | date | time | status | ||
2 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 4:59 PM | Welcome to #langchat educators - tonight's topic: when, why, and how do we teach grammar explicitly? #langchat | ||
3 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:00 PM | With apologies to my non-language friends like @bself, but for the next hour my tweets will be dedicated to #langchat | ||
4 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:00 PM | To join in, just add #langchat to the end of your tweets | ||
5 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:01 PM | A question to start - this question seems to land teachers squarely in one camp or the other - do you fall on one side? why? #langchat | ||
6 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:02 PM | @SECottrell people think I fall on one side of the issue based on what else I believe in (performance-based learning) #langchat | ||
7 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:02 PM | @SECottrell Do you mean DO we teach it explicitly or not? #langchat | ||
8 | CoLeeSensei | 6/21/2012 | 5:02 PM | It's my #langchat time...tweets for next hour devoted to language teaching issues... | ||
9 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:03 PM | @SECottrell I fall squarely in the middle :) - I teach grammar explicitly, but only after meaning is clear & sts exp many examples #langchat | ||
10 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:03 PM | @SraSpanglish how about just as a philosophy, thoughts? #langchat | ||
11 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:03 PM | @tmsaue1 what a coincidence, me too #langchat | ||
12 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:04 PM | @SraSpanglish this has been explained to me before but can you refresh my memory re: PACE? #langchat | ||
13 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:04 PM | @lnbrown10 it's how I was taught too, so for my first three years it's all I did #langchat | ||
14 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:04 PM | @SECottrell It should be highlighted in context and practiced, a la P.A.C.E. method--isolated activities can build confidence #langchat | ||
15 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:04 PM | forgive me in advance for leaning toward theory thanks to the theoretical program I got my MA from #langchat | ||
16 | lnbrown10 | 6/21/2012 | 5:04 PM | I was taught grammar explicitly, so it was all I knew. I have done this so far, but am looking to change. So i'm in the middle:) #langchat | ||
17 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:05 PM | so, my concern is about WHEN we teach WHAT grammar? #langchat | ||
18 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:05 PM | @SraSpanglish @SECottrell Yes, that's the key - context first, then practice as needed #langchat | ||
19 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:05 PM | RT @SraSpanglish: isolated activities can build confidence #langchat / agree, especially if they target a recurrent problem | ||
20 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:05 PM | @lnbrown10 I'm there w/ you--in ALL my lang classes, I lrned from charts, decontextualized activities, but not all think like that #langchat | ||
21 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:05 PM | My real problem is not if we should teach it or not (it's part of the language), my issue is fake order of grammar we believe in #langchat | ||
22 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:05 PM | @lnbrown10 Welcome to the Via Media - a great place to be :) #langchat | ||
23 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:06 PM | One of my great concerns with explicit grammar is that it allowed my teachers and later, me, to teach w/almost 0 target lang use #langchat | ||
24 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:06 PM | @SECottrell P=Present examples A=draw Attention to specific form/rule C=Co-construct rules, tchr+students E=Extension to apply #langchat | ||
25 | CoLeeSensei | 6/21/2012 | 5:06 PM | @SraSpanglish @lnbrown10 I learned charts etc as well...now I teach a language with no conjugating but...still do grammar #langchat | ||
26 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:06 PM | Is the grammar in line with the proficiency levels of the learner? #langchat | ||
27 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:07 PM | @SraSpanglish @tmsaue1 I have a big problem with charts - lower level students find them a crutch #langchat | ||
28 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:07 PM | @tmsaue1 Good point! We're still trapped in 20th c paradigm of "just in case" (or just b/c on the chart) vs "just in time" #langchat | ||
29 | CoLeeSensei | 6/21/2012 | 5:07 PM | @tmsaue1 for me its like knowing how your car works in order to get the best out of it #langchat | ||
30 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:07 PM | @tmsaue1 Not just fake order, but that grammar forms are treated like the backbone of the whole course! #langchat | ||
31 | petreepie | 6/21/2012 | 5:07 PM | PACE is a great grammar method: Presentation Attention Coconstruction Extension #langchat | ||
32 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:08 PM | scary RT @SraSpanglish: @tmsaue1 Not just fake order, but that grammar forms are treated like the backbone of the whole course! #langchat | ||
33 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:08 PM | @tmsaue1 Starting from student blogs (as suggested by @amor8 ), I could definitely see patterns of needs ie regular conjugation #langchat | ||
34 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:08 PM | the same way kids can't identify 15 without counting up, they can't get 'we' form w/o going through chart #langchat | ||
35 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:08 PM | @CoLeeSensei you can drive the car without knowing how it works. same with using a language. #langchat | ||
36 | petreepie | 6/21/2012 | 5:08 PM | Co-construction is key-where teacher help guide sts to arrive at the correct grammar conclusion #langchat | ||
37 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:09 PM | @SECottrell I think that we must focus on breaking down grammar skills further to increase possibility of TL usage for lesson #langchat | ||
38 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:09 PM | my sts complain when there isn't explicit grammatical explanations. They complain b/c they believe that they are not learning | ||
39 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:09 PM | I handed out verb charts to my AP students to study for exam, they said it was the first time they really used them #langchat | ||
40 | CoLeeSensei | 6/21/2012 | 5:09 PM | @tmsaue1 ah...but i chose to know a bit about what I use - its not my goal - but its nice to know when something goes wrong! #langchat | ||
41 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:09 PM | @SraSpanglish @lnbrown10 As a Latin teacher (of all languages!) who's taught w/o excessive charts for 20 yrs, I'm amazed (1/2) #langchat | ||
42 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | So about the when - do you start grammar in low levels or hold off for a while? #langchat | ||
43 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | RT @petreepie: Co-construction is key-where teacher help guide sts to arrive at the correct grammar conclusion #langchat | ||
44 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | @SECottrell On the other hand, they are useful for certain mindsets & graphic organizers are sound pedagogy...#langchat | ||
45 | alenord | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | I don't teach grammar explicitly, I teach expression like "Expressing Hurt and Pain" and embed the grammar. #langchat | ||
46 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | @tmsaue1 I like that one!! I'm going to try that one this year!!! :) | ||
47 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | @SraSpanglish exactly, students can pattern with 2 for a while before approaching others #langchat | ||
48 | CoLeeSensei | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | i like to introduce in a real-life context & ask 'what's going on here?' briefly confirm - then go into an activity to try it out #langchat | ||
49 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | @cadamsf1 where did they get that idea from? #langchat | ||
50 | SrtaLisa | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | My 6th graders don't get explicit grammar until the 3rd or 4th marking period, and it doesn't hurt their learning. They accept it #langchat | ||
51 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | @SECottrell e.g. 2 conjugations at a time instead of all 5 or 6 forms #langchat | ||
52 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:10 PM | @SraSpanglish @lnbrown10 (2/2) at how little ACTUAL pedagogy has changed, even in Sp and French #langchat | ||
53 | mwood19 | 6/21/2012 | 5:11 PM | RT @alenord: I don't teach grammar explicitly, I teach expression like "Expressing Hurt and Pain" and embed the grammar. #langchat | ||
54 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:11 PM | @alenord learning grammar as vocabulary. perfect! #langchat | ||
55 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:11 PM | @tmsaue1 I honestly don't know? but they really tell me they didn't learn any Spanish. I spend a lot of time debunking that myth #langchat | ||
56 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:11 PM | @petreepie I need more work on this--I let level I do it all in English pretty much, though I babble in Spanish to hash out ideas #langchat | ||
57 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:11 PM | @SECottrell Yes! That's a sad, but typical effect of too much explicit grammar, too early, as primary goal of class #langchat | ||
58 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:11 PM | @cadamsf1 that supports my argument again that we need to be better about communicating realistic language expectations with Ss #langchat | ||
59 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:12 PM | @cadamsf1 I do like Krashen's distinction between acquisition and learning. Sts are right: they're not (formally) "learning" #langchat | ||
60 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:12 PM | @tmsaue1 I agree and I think that in this instant culture unfortunately that's hard for me to sell. It's getting easier but... | ||
61 | petreepie | 6/21/2012 | 5:12 PM | @SraSpanglish co-constructions is the hardest part and a lot of times ss need to help each other in english #langchat | ||
62 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:12 PM | @cadamsf1 i see the same thing. we spend a lot of time in @JCPSWorldLang communicating realistic outcomes with Ss #langchat | ||
63 | mwood19 | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | I teach grammar explicitly only the last month of the school year to classes where I have students moving on to the high school #langchat | ||
64 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | @alenord I could explain and conjugate every tense for nearly any verb and couldn't carry on a conversation #langchat | ||
65 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | @tmsaue1 It seems to be a bigger problem with my "gifted" sts because they expect to see things that are black or white #langchat | ||
66 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | we do get too pushy about expecting students to have high accuracy in deep grammar too soon #langchat | ||
67 | alenord | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | I don't believe in teaching gram explicitly anymore b/c I was a college senior who realized she had no idea what the tenses meant #langchat | ||
68 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | @cadamsf1 Explaining that distinction at the beginning of the course - and reinforcing as needed - can help with those complaints #langchat | ||
69 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | @CoLeeSensei Do you find they need direction as to "whats going on here"? #langchat | ||
70 | taskmagic | 6/21/2012 | 5:13 PM | RT @mme_henderson: #GrahamDavies (@groovywinkler) will be greatly missed but his legacy will live on. http://t.co/ej4ShlDD #langchat #EUROCALL | ||
71 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | @petreepie @SraSpanglish True - co-construction is hard. Nothing wrong with a bit of L1 discussion along the way. #langchat | ||
72 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | @cadamsf1 so let them. Greg Duncan always says: "You can teach grammar explicitly when Ss ask for it explicitly" #langchat | ||
73 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | I have found that teaching personal A and por vs. para in Spanish is nearly useless b/c it's only corrected through input/output #langchat | ||
74 | alenord | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | I would like to advocate for the kids. They don't know what the present perfect is in L1, so why teach it like linguistics? #langchat | ||
75 | IteachHola | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | @SECottrell As FLES tchr, model, model model...then if students ask ¿Porqué? then I know they are ready for further explanation. #langchat | ||
76 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | RT @petreepie: @SraSpanglish co-constructions is the hardest part and a lot of times ss need to help each other in english #langchat | ||
77 | petreepie | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | I always present grammar in context-sts like being able to see how it is used in real contexts #langchat | ||
78 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | So a lot of verbs - any other explicit grammar you think is necessary, or focused on too much? #langchat | ||
79 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:14 PM | @trescolumnae thanks we will try again at the start of this year!! #langchat | ||
80 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:15 PM | @alenord on the other hand, I was a college sr picking out examples in pop songs to wrap my head around their usage #langchat | ||
81 | alenord | 6/21/2012 | 5:15 PM | RT @tmsaue1: My real problem is not if we should teach it or not, my issue is fake order of grammar we believe in #langchat | ||
82 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:15 PM | Do you find that the more you explain, the more they can actually use it? #langchat | ||
83 | alenord | 6/21/2012 | 5:16 PM | RT @trescolumnae: @SraSpanglish @SECottrell Yes, that's the key - context first, then practice as needed #langchat | ||
84 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:16 PM | @trescolumnae oh so true!!! We discuss how to play school also! #langchat | ||
85 | alenord | 6/21/2012 | 5:16 PM | My 1st yr teaching, I was listening to latin music and couldn't understand. Was so frustrating! Didn't matter that I knew gram. #langchat | ||
86 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:16 PM | To me the grammar discussion is simply a lack of understanding of what the @ACTFL Proficiency Guidelines have laid out for us. #langchat | ||
87 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:16 PM | @cadamsf1 @tmsaue1 Yes - especially if they've learned to "play the game of school" with its 1 right answer for every question #langchat | ||
88 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:16 PM | @tmsaue1 ok well then I sit in the middle because it depends on the class... some need to know more to move forward and others not #langchat | ||
89 | SrtaLisa | 6/21/2012 | 5:16 PM | @SECottrell I lowered my expectation for perfect this year, it felt strange, but the students weren't as intimidated #langchat | ||
90 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | @SECottrell How about por/para, a through rigorous PACE? #langchat | ||
91 | SECottrell | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | @SrtaLisa one of my biggest struggles is resisting marking every wrong verb, it's the way I was trained! #langchat | ||
92 | SrtaLisa | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | @IteachHola @SECottrell and when they ask why? they genuinely listen to the answer #langchat | ||
93 | cadamsf1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | I really liked the Pacesetter course by College Board. Sts couldn't fail unless they didn't try and ALL grammar was embedded #langchat | ||
94 | tmsaue1 | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | @cadamsf1 sometimes it's not even the whole class.we shouldn't assume what kids need, but teach it to the ones that want & need it #langchat | ||
95 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | RT @SECottrell:teaching personal A and por vs. para in Spanish is nearly useless b/c it's only corrected through input/output #langchat WORD | ||
96 | alenord | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | @tmsaue1 When it is appropriate for the context we give them. #langchat | ||
97 | mwood19 | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | From an ACTFL trainer. Why do we teach the conditional and subjunctive before they are already intermediate high? Too advanced. #langchat | ||
98 | trescolumnae | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | @cadamsf1 It's a struggle because so many students (and parents) DO think language = grammar and verb conjugations and charts only #langchat | ||
99 | SraSpanglish | 6/21/2012 | 5:17 PM | @alenord that is 1 of our selling points as WL classes--we teach them abt their own languages...#langchat | ||
100 | CoLeeSensei | 6/21/2012 | 5:18 PM | @cadamsf1 when i went to oral work where the communicating was the key - they dropped the perfection quest...#langchat |