Notes_0801

Hearing Notes / August 1, 2024 / Afternoon Session

Edit Link: Notes_0801_P2

PDF Link: Notes_0801_P2.pdf

Baldwin reads notes from deposition of Nikkole Robertson (fbi agent who applied for search warrant at Ron Logan’s).

Basis for moved/staged?

Crime scene photos

Anything in particular?

How bodies were lying. How limbs look.

Purpose of searching for books?

Looking for rune or nordic related books in case potential sticks mean something.

Did you think of that on your own?

There was always discussion the sticks meant something, specifically rune or nordic related.

Defense (Andrew Baldwin) calls Jerry Holeman

With regard to sketch 1 (old bridge guy) & sketch 2 (young bridge guy) are they the same guy?

Yes - similar features.

Sketch 1 came from Carbaugh around 4pm?
Sketch 2 came from Blair around 2pm?

Yes.

You need them to be the same guy?

The evidence says they’re same.

Not always how ISP viewed it?

“I” always have.

Baldwin hands Holeman ISP bulletin from after young bridge guy sketch was released.

This bulletin specifically states the 2 sketches are NOT the same person.
First person is no longer a person of interest.

ISP while looking for killer thought 2 different people (Nick objects).

Nick McLeland cross exam of Jerry Holeman

Are sketches a tool that law enforcement uses?

Carbaugh & Blair didn’t want to do a sketch but they were pressured, right?

Always been your view they’re the same?

Yes.

Jerry Holeman is finished.

Baldwin admits Exhibit XX: emails between Center & FBI (Abbott) dated 02/17/2017 “suspect 6 being worked hard. Ties to Brad Holder and Vinlanders.”

Baldwin admits Exhibit YY: Blocher Report

Nick objects .. Blocher is dead so it’s hearsay (but allowed to be admitted)

Andrew Baldwin calls Amber Holder

Married & divorced Brad Holder in 2018
No kids
Pleasant divorce
Remained friends
Brad Holder spoke a lot about the murders before their divorce
Told Amber originally he knew nothing and never met Abigail Williams
Then, while drunk, fought with Patrick Westfall near river. Blood on rock. Patrick Westfall wanted to go past animal sacrifice ← cause of fight.
He was once praying to Gods and cut his hand to drop blood onto metal pom with incense. He did this to her hand once.
Logan kept having issues. He missed Abby. Amber was talking to him … Brad Holder was wasted & said Patrick Westfall did it, keep your mouth shut or he’ll kill you.
Kirby (curvy?) blade wooden handle rusty was his altar knife.
Runes from animal bones or antlers
6th generation Christian preacher but wanted to adopt Amber Holder’s religion (worship old nordic gods).
Amber doesn’t subscribe to “Odinism”.
Odin is very protective of women & children.
Brad Holder told her Abby’s mom was living with a black man.
“Stay away from Pat, he’s dangerous.” - Brad Holder
She saw mimicked crime scene picture. Brad Holder said “friends posing as dead bodies re-enacting a sacrifice & weren’t really dead”.
When hunting for food .. you can blood-let as part of sacrifice.

Nick McLeland cross exam of Amber Holder

He was conflicted over NP & Christianity.
When he cut her hand, it was voluntary-ish.
She never met Patrick Westfall. Never went to Delphi or Rushville with Brad. Never met Elvis Fields et. al.
Only married to Brad for a few months in 2018.
She owns knives too, they’re part of her religion.
She didn’t know Brad Holder in 2017.

Baldwin re-direct

Referred to Patrick Westfall as former friend

Amber Holder is relieved.

Andrew Baldwin calls Kevin Murphy

Friends call him “Murph”
Recap: cop in bev shores, ISP 1995-2020, good standing, retired.
Investigated Delphi murders from 02/21/2017 - 10/01/2019
Some days he worked full time on Delphi case when ordered by Joint Terrorism FBI Task Force
They would get briefed & assigned leads as 2 person teams
Holeman, Liggett, Hammond might conduct these briefings?
He & Chad Larsch (?) often went out to toughest terrain or hard to locate areas
He understood the girls were killed dafter last video evidence (would be around 2:15-3:30pm)
He never heard an official time of death but went with what he was told
Based on crime scene, intricacies, “as few as 2-3 possibly 5-6” perps.
Before christmas 2017 he received a tip : subject from Rushville (Elvis Fields) admitted to murders to his family
Ferency got tip from Misty (the homeland security lady)
He & Purdy went there 01/07/2018 & met at the Delphi Command Center - went to see Elvis Fields’ sister.

The sister was very specific about the crime scene.
Attempted to get Mary to call Elvis Fields on a recorded line. Elvis didn’t say anything & Mary blurted “Elvis why’d you kill them?!”

Call went south.

He & Purdy made plans for Mary to get ISP polygraph.

Results : Nick objected.

Results led them to continue their investigation

He & Ferency teamed up with Click in Rushville.

Ferency : social media aspect of case in/around Delphi
Murphy : Elvis Fields
Click : Rushville boots on the ground

Murphy gave Elvis a ride home. Elvis made “spit” comment. He was floored. Called Jay Harper first - maybe Mullin.
Murphy remorseful he didn’t act right then. Should have gotten Elvis Fields back in the interview room. Feels it was a mistake.
Hands him exhibit that is a printout of a report he made.

Took a few weeks to put together.
Compiled info from January 2018 through several months later.

Links?

Elvis Fields & roommate Rod Abrams & Ned Smith & Johnny Messer (Rushville)
Brad Holder & Patrick Westfall (Delphi)
Ferency based on social media connected them all to knowing each other.
“Seemed to know things they shouldn't know unless they were there”
Brad Holder’s facebook mimicked much of the crime scene.

Baldwin hands Murphy a bunch of pictures

Specifically “symbol on Brad Holder’s hand clearly same as sticks on Abby.”
Shows Murphy picture of Abby & Murphy starts crying - says it’s tough - seems to feel immense guilt for not solving it/getting the right guy?
Identifies facebook pictures where Elvis Fields mimics Holder

“No it’s not a coincidence” re: Elvis Fields copycat pics

Vinlanders = crazy faction of Odinism
He & Ferency prepared search warrant for Elvis Fields’ home: doesn’t know if it was ever executed.
Was Brad Holder a suspect?

Yes, on his investigation.

He reported his work to unified command daily.
Regarding alibis … all over the place. At hospital & phone had no service.

Murphy “Not at hospital. We checked. That alibi was a lie.”

Murphy: very intense, answers very confidently.
Things that linked Brad Holder to the scene:

“Symbolism someone posts on social media identically mimicking a crime scene is not a coincidence.”

Nick McLeland cross examination of Murphy

Regarding Elvis’ weird statement “you once said you thought he was messing with you”
Regarding Mary “you worried about quantity of pills in her home”

“They may be full of crap”

Never could place any of those guys near the crime scene that day

Baldwin - Per Mary Jacobs : the morning of 02/14/2017 “he got back from Delphi, handed her a blue coat with blood on it & said we’re kind of in a gang.”

Murphy is released.

Jerry Holeman follows him out.

Baldwin calls Todd Click

June 2018 Ferency & Murphy came to Rushville to interview Elvis Fields
He was head of criminal investigations
He offered input on interview he watched
They discussed Elvis Fields - August 2018 recruited him to work with them
Ferency said “Find link for Elvis Fields & Delphi”

Initially unable
Asked to look at facebook of Brad Holder & Patrick Westfall to find Rushville connection
He found picture on Brad Holder’s facebook page of Vinlanders & Messer was in the picture
Messer’s uncle lived with Elvis Fields for a while

Initially Messer denied knowing Elvis Fields. Next interview admitted to running groceries & cigarettes to Elvis Fields
Messer tried to recruit Brandon Mansfield, Dave Fields, Josh Moore - but initially denied being a recruiter.
As investigation progressed, facebook posts seemed alarming & copycatty with Brad Holder & Elvis Fields.
Found a Josh Crisman link (sons of Odin/American Guard)
2016 maga rally in Indianapolis - American Guard & Vinlander collab.

Micky McGinley hosted an after party - they were all there together.

Crisman said semi-drivers paid Elvis Fields to load/unload stuff (hogs) at hog farms (Whiteman, Packers, Tyson)
Crisman had a girlfriend in Delphi
On 02/13/2017 Crisman left to take hogs to Aggieland in MI but logs show he didn’t arrive until 02/14/2017.

Nick McLeland cross examination of Todd Click

Confirms he could never place Brad Holder at crime scene.
Any evidence?

“I knew runes were placed on the girls with sticks at the crime scene and I knew these guys made runes with sticks”
“I believe girls stumbled upon a ritual & made fun of it & were killed out of anger.”
“I believe Libby was killed first, then Abby as a witness.”
“I was originally told abducted around 2:30, killed by search party there around 5:30”
That timeframe was “popular for investigation”
“My belief based on testimonial evidence + my training & experience, no direct evidence, but strong circumstantial.”

Baldwin re-direct of Todd Click

Interview Taylor Hornaday?

Yes. Messer’s ex-girlfriend. She said Johnny borrowed her car around valentine's day 2017, went to Delphi area, brought it back & blood was smeared on side of car.
Also determined other crimes he was involved in.
Her vehicle was processed but Click was not ever told what the results were.

Nick McLeland admits Taylor Hornaday deposition. No context for contents of the deposition.

Brad Rozzi calls Dave Vido

ISP Lafayette involved in Delphi briefly in 2017, then full time April 2019 “core team”.
Never worked with Nikkole Robertson.
In 2017 discovered Libby was communicating with Anthony Shots via Snapchat only.
He wasn’t part of Anthony Shots investigation until March 2022.

Identity already established as Kegan Kline.

Rozzi shows him December 2021 press release with photos of Kowalski on Anthony Shots profile.

Confirms they wanted help from public.
Kagan Kline was first confronted with his contact with Libby as Anthony Shots profile on 02/25/2017.
Tracy Huntsler (?) with ISP & Agent William FBI
Communication between Libby & Anthony Shots on 02/13/2017
Thought Kegan Kline was a user (of the profile)

Thought Tony Kline possibly was too

Kegan owned a firearm … never located it.
Search warrant listed .40 caliber so it was of interest.
Pictures of his friend with this firearm
He had multiple electronics used for communication - confirmed to be associated with CSAM
Unified Command ad belief this murder was a sexually motivated crime.

With 2 minors?

Kegan Kline had materials showing sexual interest in minors?

Vido aware of resources being exhausted.

Page 34:

He was lying in 2017?

As an investigator, him deleting apps of interest to you was concerning?

Vegas trip pre-planned : Tony Kline later on offered money for him to stay after they came back.
Alibi for 2/13?

None corroborated. He gave multiple. Disproved most.

Ultimately showed he was at his residence on his device (or his device was being used)
Interviewer suggested Kegan Kline had similar physical characteristics to bridge guy in videoed interview?

Don’t remember. Which interview?

Do you see similar physical characteristics to bridge guy?

Long pause …. I’d say he’s bigger

Interview with Tony Kline 08/21/2020

You were working some tips.
Aware of history of violence?

Domestic violence?

Assaulting a kid when 4 or 5?

Kegan Kline suggested Tony Kline had bad leg like bridge guy & wore same clothing.

Page 35:

Interviewed Kegan again at air Force base in 08/2022 (Holeman, Vido, etc)

Yes. Confirms significant resources were being used.

Did Kegan Kline admit he was in the Delphi area on 02/13/2017?

Yes with his dad

At the cemetery?

Holeman took him to interview him without an attorney?

He said he took Tony Kline to that cemetery?

Yes, red jeep.
Dad walked out of the jeep into the woods & came back 1-2 hours later.
Came back with blood on pants.
Tony Kline did not say what he did but that “we” had a good time.
Later Kegan Kline told them he threw a cell phone & Tony Kline threw a knife into the Wabash.
Clam jam 08/2022.
Found multiple phones, knives and guns … none connected to Delphi or Kegan Kline.

Nothing led to Richard Allen
After Richard Allen’s arrest, they tried to connect dots?

No connection? (Nick objected & was overruled)

Page 36 - Rozzi & Vido Continued

KK lied various times & maybe even about the cemetery / Jeep story?

Yes, We disproved everything.

Baldwin -

Vido interviewed Westfall & Holder

Westfall’s phone wiped
Didn’t ask for BH phone? - No.
Why? - Just didn’t. We had his work records.

Nick & Vido -

Only saw message sent to Libby, couldn’t open contents.
No red Jeep on CCTV, no digital data placing them at scene.
Ever connect TK or KK to crime scene? - No.
On the trails? - No.
In Delphi? - No.
TK & KK phones were at their homes on 2/17/2013 being used.

Rozzi -

Acknowledge more than one route to the cemetery?

Yes.

One without cameras?

Yes.

Pg 37 - Baldwin

As an investigator, do you think BH’s story changing about the times he met Abby warrants further scrutiny and investigation?

I don’t believe so because we have work records.

Baldwin phrases it if you had a son with a murdered girlfriend & you three days later said you never met her, then six years later you say you met her one time, then twice, once with another suspect…. Isn’t that weird?

Vido shrugs head like he didn’t understand question.

Baldwin says it’s okay it’s late. No more questions.

Defense submits several more exhibits.

Re: Ron Logan -

Review Nikkole deposition & search warrant
Lying about whereabouts on 2/13/2017.
Note bodies found on property
List
Wall calendar with days marked 2/13 & 2/14
Used sweatshirt in laundry room

Pg 38 -

Auger - Re: Geofence Data / Horan -

Detailed his experience & credentials
He generated maps & spreadsheets
“We believe it’s absolutely part of the investigation”
“Other phones in area where crime scene”
“Potential other suspects. It was part of their investigation, we should be talking about it.”
“A [device?] at cemetery around time of murders”
“We believe connects to one of five or six potential people Murphy mentioned”

Nick -

I’m no expert in geofence & google warrants but it’s so inaccurate in my understanding
Totally unreliable
If defense wants to bring experts…
I think phones could be in Tippecanoe County

Auger - Rekt him -

Clarifies two sources of data - tower dumps & Google data (accuracy 3-5 minutes)
Horan will testify he left a list of subjects to follow up on. Auger explained geofence

Pg 39 -

Nick - If my statements aren’t evidence, then neither are hers and she didn’t bring anything to prove it so…

Re: Paragraph 12 - “We can go over this off the record” per Nick

As of today… Cecil has even more data for defense per Auger
Will redepose in a few weeks

Nick admits work record of Brad Holder and Anytime Fitness log

BH’s deposition with pages of note [ ? ]
Susan case deposition, worked at Liberty Landfill with notes
Deposition of Johnny Messer with notes
Work / [bank?] records of Messer
Deposition of Turco
Turco’s Report

Pg 40 - State calls Christopher Cecil

ISP 1st Sergeant, 20 years
ICAC Commander
Did extraction in 2019 & another 2024 LG

Forensic software updates & improvements

Video taken 2/13 of “BG”

That’s when abducted?

Pauses & says my understanding

Cecil has report - when video started 14:13:51 - 14:14:34

Location - geolocates near HS then comes back to MHB
Other pics with GPS coordinates?

Snapchat geolocated?

Confident video & picture on day / time
Movement after that through Apple Health (steps, not GPS)

Stops moving 2/13/2017 14:32:39
Phone did not move, stayed on until sometime after 4:33am

Auger -

Does Apple Health show movement from home to MHB when they’re in the car?

No. Only shows movement in car if it hits a big bump sometimes

Cecil has never been to the bridge

Pg 41 - Auger & Cecil Continued -

Auger notates Kay’s private drive - Cecil didn’t know
Could number of steps get to drive?

Possible, hasn’t measured steps, just movement.
“Didn’t know which girl carrying”
Distance traveled accurate as number of steps?

He won't commit to that

Bigger stride, bigger distance?

Your written [ ? ? ], from 2019
You paid very close attention, right?

Liberty German *Snapchat picture of bridge
*Picture of Abby on bridge couldn’t be found

Cecil asked to find it & couldn’t
Cecil wrote “battery likely depleted” on 2/13
“I didn’t look at 2/14”
Now he believes it wasn’t depleted

Pg 42 - Auger & Cecil Continued -

“I don’t know that much about cell towers”
Was LG’s phone on wifi between 5:30pm - 4:33am?

If not wifi, must be tower, right?

LG’s phone received zero texts from 2/13 4:06pm to 2/14 4:33am

“I’d have to check”
Auger says It’s in your deposition!
He says he wants to check

Cecil looks at computer, confirms LG phone received fifteen texts at 4:33am

Cecil says some may be duplicates
Auger wants him to count them

Auger hands Cellebrite extraction from 2017

Cecil says I didn’t do this report but agrees to review…. About 10 minutes
Auger says “it’s important”

Cecil says one isn’t parsing… “Becky Patty…”

#3 didn’t go through

Agree received at least 14 at 4:33?

Pg 43 - Auger & Cecil Continued

Last text message on 2/13

Received on LG’s phone?

10:48pm? From 2017 Cellebrite

Defense exhibit TTT - 5:33pm?

From Cecil’s 2019 extraction
Guy in 2017 would’ve brought it in from iCloud?
Cecil saying text show up when they were sent, not received via sms or mms

(audible gasp in the room)

Auger trying to prove those texts were not sent at 4:33am but received at 4:33am

Cecil jumps Yes! I will agree!
Gull - Why didn’t you just say that? To Auger

Pg 44 - Auger & Cecil Continued

2019 what did you know about the crime?

Same as on news

He searched for data on 2/13 for clues

Auger -

Knowledge C familiarity?

Nick objects

Auger says whatever

State - 29 exhibits

Defense - TTT

Pg 45 - 7:00pm - State calls Purdy

Nick -

Asking about his investigation into Brad Holder
Doesn’t recall seeing “that” picture on his Facebook
Nick suggests no proof it’s there

Baldwin -

Points out at deposition he said “yes,” now he’s not sure?

Purdy released

Pg 46 - 7:05pm - State calls Patrick Cicero

Laporte CSO Major, 24 years
Specializes in blood spatter, CSI, entomology, stain
Specialized courses & certifications

Courses require tests to validate competency
He teaches, too. National Forensics Academy

31 expert testimonies provided, multiple [counties?] asked to assist this Pros[ecution?] 2/12/2024
Reviewed evidence & visited scene with Rich Davies

Examined clothing of Abby

Tree - blood stain accumulation, pooling, voluminous on ground

Leaf litter near base of tree
North side of tree, blood on tree “upside down L”
He saw references in reports to “F”

He disagrees

Picture of crystal violet on tree, officers applied that & took pics

Pg 47 - Cicero Continued

He says part of F is missing, so he says it’s an upside down L
When he visited recently, there are pinkish marks on trees, could’ve caused confusion
Next picture, investigators on ladder

Discoloration to W of Abby (pooling?) few feet from foot

3.4” x 3.7” upside down L on tree

6 spatters
Transfer stains to upside down L
Flow in vertical position of upside down L
Voluminous amount of blood to create [gravity?] to flow from transfer
More transfer starting 2ft from ground
2 other small areas with blood
He observed lab reports - all blood
“Libby was mobile”

Blood on bottom of foot = standing

Abby only blood identified on or near her body

Pg 48 - Cicero Continued

Her body was dragged through the pools (streaking)
Left arm up from being dragged
She was standing & mobile during first injuries
Projected pattern on thigh / flow to inner thigh
Indicates she was sitting at some point
Injury was over the thigh, seated at injury

Abby -

One wound, where she was found, not mobile
Stain on face indicates head moved
Back of her clothing saturated & ran out a bit to right
Flows over chin so maybe she was sat up at some point
No blood on sleeves or hands

Libby -

Hands were touching wounds

Both carotids & jugular compromised

Pg 49 - Cicero Continued

Abby redressed after injuries?

He says no, she got wounds with all clothes on

Blood only on neckline or shoulders of clothing

If redressed after, should be transfer blood

Did sticks on victims serve as concealment?

Auger objects -

Cicero not an expert on witness / searcher vision & concealment efficacy
Didn’t see scene at time, rather April 2024

I could see across bank (justifying why not seen)

Luttrell counters
Auger renews objection

Pg 50 - Cicero Continued

Experiment -

He had his blood drawn & put in vials

No coagulant

Auger objects - asks if he was on meds

Yes, for hypertension

[ ? ] says blood on tree was transfer, not painting

I.e. a hand palm facing tree, pinky up
Meaty area of palm drug the blood
5’ 4” girl eperimented this

Tried painting with fingers & stick - it is possible but have to keep re-dipping

Pg 51 - Cicero Continued

The transfer on tree doesn’t explain spatter

Had to be different action that caused that

3 small pools, one large - all LG

Auger Cross -

LG 3 cuts
“Someone had blood on their hands & touched a tree to create a pattern?”

Did you test out other hands?

Any clue size of Brad Holder’s hand?

You have no clue how it was transferred to tree, just that it was transferred?

Correct

Asks about moving a dead body -

Can you see path drug?

Yes
Staining & smearing on leaves as well as her back of body

Pg 52 - Auger & Cicero Continued

Blood across R face, chin, over eye

Inconsistent with head to L in final resting
Not how blood moves, doesn’t defy gravity
Head had to fall back for those flows

Abby - again flow on face inconsistent

You said AW was nude sometime on or about 2/13/2017, now you’re changing that?

He says “well maybe partially”

Did you record experiment?

What percent of LG’s body covered?

Maybe 30%

What percent of AW’s body covered?

Maybe 30%

Could I have easily fully covered with leaves around?

Was there a lot of [chaos]?

Given data, impossible to say what happened?

Nick -

Sticks in other scenes?

Pg 53 - Nick & Cicero Continued

“Building a bridge” concealment is just to break up a pattern

Auger -

In [real?] cases, see more sticks?

Taken under advisement

Baldwin -

stands up to clarify Cecil findings

It’s important

Phone. Turned. On. at. 4:33am.

Nick -

That’s not enough to blame Brad Holder. Even if true, they didn’t meet nexus to allow any 3rd party suspects