Season 2, Episode 22: Emergent Strategy Podcast
“Black Feminist Futures with Paris Hatcher”
*Please note: these transcripts are intended to increase the accessibility of the podcast; there should be no reprinting or distribution without permission.
Mia: I hope you enjoy the brilliance of Paris Hatcher on this episode. Please note that we recorded this in a time before the leak & eventual Supreme Court decision of Roe v Wade and the early part of this year. As we move into fall weather and the cooling of seasons, we hope you can meet us in the moment that was still seeding new possibilities born from winter's hibernation. The questions and urgings still feel right on time. enjoy.
Paris: I am seeing and thinking about and wanting to feel the power of movement right now. And it's not just a call out to others; it's a call out to me. So it's a, now whatcha gonna do about it then, right? And that's what I'm trying to figure out. What am I gonna do about it then?
Theme Music (“Wolves” - Hurray for the Riff Raff)
Mia: Hello, and welcome to the Emergent Strategy Podcast, hosted by Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute. We are a collective of facilitators, mediators, trainers, and curious human beings interested in how we get in right relationship with change. Today, I'll be getting our interview. I'm Mia, ESII's healer in residence and general, just love being here, doing this thing with y'all. So, Emergent Strategy is the way we generate and reshape complex systems and patterns with relatively simple interactions. And today, I have the deep honor of interviewing Paris Hatcher. So, just really quickly, Paris is the founder and director of Black Feminist Future, also known as the Chief Rabble Rouser. Paris knows how to bring people together, get it done, and to really move into an important calling for our time. And so, I'm so excited to bring you on, and I wanna just know how you are, how are you right now today? (2:12)
Paris: Thank you for that intro, Mia. I am--. I'm doing good. You know, winter is really wintering this season, so I am trying to learn from that, meaning going slower and sleeping more. I'm in hibernation mode, I'm feeling, but I'm doing good.
Mia: I love that. Well, yay to move with the season and to be able to be inside of the hibernation. I, for myself, feel the resistance, like, the deep desire to be hibernating and the resistance and the pull towards all the things. So, it's so nice when you can just be in sync with it. So, I want to just say, kind of quickly--. I was both super excited about this interview-- one, because you're one of my favorite people in the world; you're just someone who I deeply inspire--
Paris: Oh ho, that's fun.
Mia: It's true! You're someone I'm deeply inspired by, whose leadership I learn a tremendous amount from. And, I think the way that BFF, or Black Feminist Future, has grown and continues to move through the world, is such an important testament to being responsive and being connected and listening to what's needed and really moving in that direction. So, you know, in the way that we talk about that at, at emergent strategy, those are some qualities of intentional adaptation, creating more possibilities. And from those alone, I think--although I could name others that I feel like you embody; but in particular, this intentional adaptation and creating more possibilities feels like a big part of how I see you move and what I think Black Feminist Future is working to move in the world. And so, I wanna know if, based on that, or other ideas that you may have about what you're applying in relationship to emergent strategy, if you would accept the premise that you are, indeed, an emergent strategist. (4:12)
Paris: Ooh, emerg--. Am I emergent--an emergent strategist? I think so. I mean, I was thinking--. For so long, a part of our work at BFF was baked into, like, our mission statement: that we would both take the learnings of movement and use that information and organizing and--, to adapt to what the conditions are and continue to evolve to be. I think so. It's so interesting though. This year, at the organization, we created a, a theme of the year. And the theme is to be deliberate and potent. And deliberate--, being deliberate is seen as, like, the opposite of emergent. And I'm kind of playing with this idea of, like, being deliberately emergent. When I was looking it up, they were like, basically the opposite of emergent is deliberate. And I was like, oh, that's so interesting. Cause I don't see it as such, but I find--. So I-I get bored with the--, when we get boxed in by the: well, this is how it has to be or this is how it's been. I find that to be so boring and limiting <Mia laughs>. Or, I'm always so curious around the question; I'm like, well, have people tried this thing? And it's oftentimes, like, maybe the thing that is most scary to people. I kind of wanna always be in that space, kind of that, that third, like, it may seem scary to others, but, like, what's over there? Like, what's right there? Kind of like when the sun is, like--, I always say, like, let, let's get a little bit closer to the horizon. Let's keep going. What's just over there? (6:10) Just, let's keep riding it. So, I guess with that in mind, I'm an emergent strategist, perhaps. I just have to be mindful around how my emergence impacts others. <laugh>
Mia: <Laugh>. Fair, fair, fair. Okay. This is good. So that's already two things we can move into because I think, one, I'm kind of curious about the definition. You, you said, you know, I don't think that deliberate and emergence are oppositional, and yet, you know, the definitions told you that. So, I'm kind of curious about what you understand as, you know, what it means to be deliberate, the kind of calling for this year to be deliberate; and then how you see the capacity, then, still to adapt based on plans or to, you know, build trust and relationship and--, or, you know, these other things that we see as a part of emergence, which, you know, are the complex but simple patterns and interactions that happen anyway. So, I'm just kind of curious what the definition brought up in you, this notion of, like, being emergent and being deliberate. What kind of--, that tension it ignited for you? And also, you know, how you were like, oh, I don't think so.
Paris: Well, you know, I think my own dialogue is that I think--. I think of emergence as being quicker paced. And I think that's just my own correlation. And perhaps this is where I can kind of like, oh no, like why do you think that? Especially if you use nature as an example. I mean that emergence requires millions of years. It's a slow process. So maybe I'm giving myself a little bit of, like, hmm. But I, you know, thinking about emergence versus being deliberate--, and maybe not versus, just in conversation with each other, because I'm being more and more aware of my pace, and how my pace, especially as a person who is moving and also setting the pace of others can be a lot. (8:16) It feels totally fine for me. I'm thriving, but I've been told that it's kind of a quick, fast pace, right? And so, when you're thinking about that, like, that pace, what it takes, I was like, well, you know, this year it seems like the emergence piece, which I'm associating with being quick, rapid, is maybe giving more folks more whiplash than they would like <laugh>. So maybe, if I'm more deliberate, meaning leaving less room for the the, "what about this?" it'll help me with pacing, and it also will support my team with pace. Again--. And guess what? And that also will give me self some--, myself some space to be in areas in my life where I can actually go the pace that I want.
Mia: Mm, I love that.
Paris: Yeah.
Mia: I mean, I love this attending to, what's the right pace? And I actually think that emergent strategy at least calls for us to be in right relationship with each other, which does mean calibrating pace to each other. I appreciate you kind of sitting with the tension of emergence as urgence, because I don't think that they are the same thing, just like you said, in terms of if we follow the patterns of nature. But I do think that there's a thing that can feel maybe urgent to people is when an, an adaptation happens, when it's intentional, and, like, if you haven't been in a conversation and felt the same things about when this adaptation is needed, then that can feel like a, a shift that feels quick for folks that may actually not be. It may be, you know--, or maybe it is; it's born out of like what you're reading real time understanding is needed. You know, like, if we think about the starlings, the migration of birds, and how they may attune to a change in the wind pattern, that that could seem quick. (10:13)
Paris: Yeah, I mean I think some of it is--. I'm sorry, go ahead Mia.
Mia: No, it's okay. No, I was just saying, but it could seem like it's a quick adaptation, and it may be, but oftentimes it's still, you know, it's still based on a vision of where you're going and it's still based on a commitment and being in connection. So, hopefully it doesn't feel like it's, you know, born out of nothing. <Laugh>.
Paris: Yeah. I think you're giving me permission for--. Yeah, I'm now--I'm, I'm rethinking, I'm retooling. I think you're right. Also how not to make, you know, don't course correct too much, right? So learn. And you know, it's always this, this dance around how to be true to yourself and true to others, especially around, yeah, this piece around adaptation, right? So yeah, I'm, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm thinking a lot around this deliberate and emergent stance, and I don't know if I'm in the same place where I started last week. I think I'm really in a different place already. We'll see where I am by the end of the year.
Mia: All right. All right. Well, so tell us a little bit. Let's get into a little bit of, like, you know, what is BFF, what is Black Feminist Future, and what called you to create the organization?
Paris: Hmm. I think--. I'm, like, Black Feminist Future is the--. Hopefully, what we're shaping up to be is the Black feminist organization that so many of us have always wanted: a national space to build, to learn, to struggle, to win; to improve and dramatically shift the political, social, cultural landscape of Black women, girls, and gender expansive people, but also this country and beyond. (12:05) We live in a society where misogynoir--which is the, the hatred of Black women, girls and feminine people--is rampant. And it's not only rampant, it's deadly. It shows up in public policy, culture, every aspect of our lives, within our family structures, our relationships; and in order for all Black people to be free, we need Black feminisms. And so, really this organization is a call to action. It's a love letter to Black people to get free. And we are a national membership organization. We've started--. This is actually gonna be our eighth year. We're based in Atlanta, but we're national. We have transnational work, which is really exciting and just growing. And I am obsessed with this organization, because it continues to transform me. We have a dynamic team, a dynamic board, dynamic partnerships, just--, it is such a privilege to be doing this type of work at this time.
Mia: Mmm, I love that. I love, Okay, so in full transparency for the audience, I have had the pleasure of knowing Paris for a very long time. It's almost, I think it's a theme for this season. It's, like, people who I've known for most of my life in some way or another, in particular, when I was at Third Wave, I got the opportunity to support Paris and her work at Spark: Reproductive Justice Now. And at that point in time, it was really clear that Paris is an exceptional visionary leader and amazing organizer and really heart forward. And through that, I had the opportunity to join Black Feminist Future's board. And in that journey of both being on board, and then for a hot little second, being able to be a part of the staffing team, I've just, I feel like what you said about BFF being a love letter feels so resonant and true. (14:10) Like, it's so clear that this is about loving our people more than it is about--, as much as it is about the, like, the kind of cruelty that we face or experience as a result of the social and political landscape. But yeah, I, I, I have to say that it feels so compelling to be a part of and to be kind of brought into the wave of what BFF compels us towards. Like, what is a future with us in it? Like, we know we gonna be in the future, but this is the one that we're gonna shape, so that we all can get free, feels so, so deeply important. So, I wanna thank you for building this work and inviting me and so many others to be a part of it. And I feel like a big part of what you've shared--, like, you do make it an invitation, and you do build off of trust, and you do build off of the sense of love. And so, I wanna know for you, was love the core ethic of your political lineage, that invitation into building together? Or, what do you feel like, kind of, informed your lineage to bring you to this point of creating an organization that is so deeply based in love for our people?
Paris: Mmm, that is--. Well, thank you again, Mia. That's so--, so kind; and working together has been meant so much to me and has grown me all the time. Mia's the best, and I love this question. And I'm thinking about it. I think, like a lot of folks, what brought me in was being upset and angry at what was happening around me. And then you found people who made the work irresistible and those relationships just kept, they keep you showing up, you know? And so, you know, my anger, and I don't even know if it's my anger, to be honest. (16:06) I, when I think about kind of, I don't know where it started. I tell people that, like, I just feel like it was--, almost feels like it was baked into me. Like, I was--, this desire to make the, make the world a better place. And I think one of the first things that I did is--, when I was nine years old in the fourth grade, I learned about the Greensboro four, the four young college students that led the sit-ins in Greensboro, where I'm from. And I was just so inspired by that. And I think in general learn--, knowing my family's story around, in impossible conditions, doing really amazing things. And the amazing things are just, like, surviving those impossible conditions. You know, it's not always, like--, I was the best this, best that, but like, you know, in the midst of this, being able to have family, build community, be people that folks looked, looked to. When I go back home and, during a time we could be out in the world, I would be stopped all the time with my mom, cause everyone either knows her or knew my grandma. They were both educators and just so, just, just deeply revered and loved. I tell folks that, you know, I come from a line of educators. Almost everyone in my immediate family has taught in some way--and I, I've never been in this school system, but this is a type of education, you know--and have done so in a way where that there's generations and generations of students and people who, who have deep love from my mama. There's a student that, actually they used to call her mama, and it made me so upset growing up. When I was little, I was like, oh my god, you're my mama. Why are they doing this? But still to this day calls her--it's at least been 30 years, calls her on all the big holidays, sends her birthday cards. So, I think when you put it that way around this lineage, I just, I think I've always seen what sharing what you know with others can do, that it can transform people's lives. (18:12) That you can do it in a way that allows people to feel in their dignity, in their goodness around feeling terrible around themselves. In particular, I think about my mom, and during the eighties, in North Carolina, she created this club called the Ebony Heritage Club, which was just for Black students to learn about Black history after school. And it changed so much for the, you know, for the young people. It changed so much for--, like, when I used to participate, and they'd do these huge shows that, like, people would come to. Learning about your history, it just changed so much, right? The things that they don't want us to know. So, I think about that as part of that legacy of love, of caring for people, for allowing folks the opportunity to tap into their dignity. And I think that's so much of what I wanna do at Black Feminisms is that, really letting folks know, like, this is a, this is your legacy, this is your lineage. I understand that you have, you may have questions, you may be, like, that's not me; but I'm telling you it's you, and we want you, we want you. Like, not only is it you, we see you; but also, come be with us and there's a lot more of us.
Music Break - “Jupiter’s Dance” plays. Lyrics: “I'm a window to your room and you'll never be home. I'm a keeper of the moon”
Mia: I wanna circle back, and also just bless your mama and the teachers--. I have to say, it's interesting that you talk about being from teachers, because it's so clear in how you communicate and work with staff and members, that, like, you're often in the role of educator. (20:02) You deeply--. I think you take very seriously the capacity to share what you know, and also to make sure that everybody's on the same page and so to make, to, like, kind of widen the sphere of knowing. And so, I'm like, oh yeah, that lineage of teachers comes through really strongly. So that's pretty cool, and bless your mama again. So now, I've heard you talk about this work as also an ancestral download and being on assignment. I love this notion of, like, the calling being about people being in their dignity. I'm wondering for you, what supports your ability to hear clearly and follow the guidance of either being on assignment or hearing this as an ancestral assignment even?
Paris: Yeah, I mean that's a bold thing to say. When I say it, I <laugh>, I don't say it lightly, because it can come off as really wild. Like, okay, who do you think you are, or why do you feel--. You know, it--. That is a lot. There is a lot there to, to feel like it's coming from someplace else. I think--. There's a couple things for me why it feels very--. I feel like my steps have been ordered. I feel like, from a very early age, I felt this calling, and I didn't know what it was. I just knew that injustice was something that I was really, like, not about. When I graduated, when I--. I went to college and was on that path, and I had no idea that this as, like, something to do was even a possibility. Like, and I know people were kind of like, how did you not know? Like, no one at my school, no one told me. I literally thought I was gonna have to become a lawyer. I had no ideas--. That's kind of why I went to grad school. <laugh> It's like, I had no idea what was next. While I knew nonprofits existed, I wanted movement. That's actually what I wanted. (22:03) And so, I think there's a distinction and there's overlap, right? And so, when I think about movement, I think about movements that are brought together by, whether--. It doesn't matter whether or not you have this 501c3, but it's really around this liberation of our people. It's around this larger call. And I think, I wasn't aware of movement when I was in college, but as I started to navigate the world and get involved in grassroots groups, it became clear to me like, okay, that's what I wanna be a part of. And I think what for me, over the years, has felt like a calling, like ancestral downloads, is that it does feel like at times, these ideas come and like my, my hand is just kind of moving, right? Like, I'm just kind of collecting the information. I think the things that help me clear and make space between what is something that I think that I should do--. It's like a, it's like a feeling, almost like a tuning fork in a way, that things feel--. For example, physical practice. So, like, exercise really helps me clear my mind. I have to do things that help clear my mind that help, kind of, exhaust my body in a way that allow me to start to make that differentiation between me--which is fine! It's okay if it's me sometimes, right?--and what feels like, okay, this is like a download, or this is actually the way that I feel like we should be moving. Yeah, I think through reading, I think through talking to others, I think through giving myself time to really think through and distill. I think something that I really, I'm really aware of the role that ego can easily play in a movement or in any organization--in people, like we are, we're humans; so, how do I make sure to just really be in check around, you know, like, ego or doing things for clout or recognition versus, this is what should be happening, and if you get recognition, that's fine. (14:22) But there's some folks who really spend most of their time doing work for recognition around the shift, right? And so, what I'm saying may sound a bit incomplete because I'm still trying to figure it out myself. Especially within this new year; I was feeling really, like, down and out, like, oh gosh, I'm not feeling the excitement. It's hard. How does one motivate a team? Right now, our conditions everywhere just feel--seem so intense. Like abortion is--, will be banned. These white folks are cutting up around critical race theory in ways that I'm just like, yo, they are, they have lost their minds, right? The climate is changing, COVID is ravaging us, it's really hard. So right now, I feel like I'm just trying to do some deep listening and trying to use my internal tuning fork to really listen to the guiding voice. Because yeah, I'm figuring it out as I go. I'm just trying to figure it out, you know,
Mia: I love it. I love what you're figuring out, and I love you just naming the practices that you have, that are supporting you to, kind of, clear the way and make space and to hear and tune and attune. Yeah, I mean, I don't know. I think somebody out here'd be lying if they said they weren't trying to figure it out. <Laugh> I was like, I mean like, that's what we all doing, right? <Laugh>
Paris: Yeah. I mean, in quiet. I think that's the other thing. I actually work in quiet a lot. Not even music. I, I find comfort in it, that quiet. (26:04) It just allows, yeah it allows. And I think, you know, I'm a person who loves to be with a team. Like, I'm very--. I'm extroverted, so you know, my energy gets charged up by others. But I've really learned over these last several years of--. Before this, I started working remote, and I've learned, I kind of like, oh, maybe I'm more of, like a, ambivert or more of a introvert now. But I loved just kind of being able to brainstorm with people, like, what do you think? What, you know, what you got? What you think? But that's shifted so much for me. So now I'm finding more that quiet time, that reflection, like, actually needing more of the, like, my time that is really teaching me something that's very new for me. Cause I literally, like, like to be in the middle of things <laugh>. Like I, you know, I can suffer from FOMO a lot, but not as much anymore. Maybe COVID did that. <Laugh>
Mia: Yeah, maybe. Or, you know, aging and COVID. But also, it's interesting, cause yeah, I, you know, I think one of your--, the sayings I most affiliate with you is, like, I like to live honey, so, like. <laugh>
Paris: I do, I love to live. I tell people I live, I live <laugh>.
Mia: And when you say that--
Paris: I think that's it, too. I love to live. Yes, yes.
Mia When you say that, I can feel you, like, then in the center of it, you know, like, feeling the pulse, like whatever is moving, like, being there as it's happening. But I also, you know, I think what I can appreciate about where you're saying you are now, too, is just that, like, it--, both are required, right? You gotta have that silence in order to feel, then to be fully present for, like, that thing where you're drumming or making or in making a beat together or fully, fully in the middle of a thing. You gotta have those spaces for recharge and for listening and for integration. So do you see emergent strategy in any of your practices? (28:08)
Paris: Hmm. I see emergent strategy as one of its first teachers or--, is nature and the natural world. And I think, for me, that's one of my number one favorite teachers is the natural world. And so, I think that's where the link is for me. I am in awe and wonder of nature; what it shows us, what it provides us. It--it's like that thing that I need. And I, I think I figured it out. I finally gave language to why, when I like to go retreat and recharge, I like to normally go on some type of adventure or go do--, seek something in nature, because I love the overwhelm of it. Like I--, whether it's, like, this water is the bluest water, like I cannot believe it, or that waterfall in Iceland is, like, pounding, or this is a glacier chunk, or look at this bird, or--. Like, all of that nature will win <laugh>. And I know it's like, it's not about win or losing, but, you know, as we are facing this, like, climate catastrophe that, that's really real; the earth is gonna win. Humans won't, but the earth will and--. <laugh> I know that sounds kind of sad to hear, but the earth is built to do it, even though we keep pushing it to its brink in many ways. So, I think that's the correlation for me. I think of emergent strategy is led by informed by, by nature and the natural world. And I, you know, and that's one of my greatest teachers too.
Mia: Thank you for sharing. I love that. In fact, don't you have, like, a practice of taking people on bike rides and to--, through nature--
Paris: I do!
Mia: Can you share a little bit about just some of your nature practices? (30:01)
Paris: I do have nature practices. So this started about 12 years ago. I started bike touring, and then me, and my good friend zahra alabanza, we started a company called Black Freedom Outfitters, where we take Black folks on outdoor adventures. We have biked thousands of miles across the US and Canada with just our gear on our bikes, and camped, and made delicious food, and howled at the moon, and swam, and, like, skinny dipped in the oceans, and just give thanks. We've hiked a tour we call Follow the Drinking Gourd, which is the Georgia piece of the Appalachian Trail. We have beach camped, which is so much fun, which is--. We camped in Assateague State Park in Maryland, which is right close to where Harriet Tubman's land is in the eastern shore. And we visited her land and then also beach camped with wild horses, which <laugh>, those were so wild. They were <laugh>, they are wild and they, they demand humans to feed them. It's pretty intense. But we have biked toured to carnival in Toronto. We have, we've just biked so many places and, for myself, a physical practice really got me together. I had, kind of, I was like in this all in for movement, and then, I just was neglecting myself, and then I was like, I need to get better--. Talk about right relationship, like, let's start with me. And I think that's the whole thing about "I like to live," whether--. So, I started doing these bike tours, where I have, like, two weeks a year I'm going on a bike tour. And if the organization falls apart in two weeks, then it falls apart. (32:02) <laugh> Then how could I, you know what I'm saying? If it only took two weeks to blow it up, then it's not very secure. And that's actually my attitude around life right now. Like, if it only takes--. If I didn't pick up the phone and that tore it up, then I don't, I don't know what to say <laugh>. So, for me, that practice, the ability to, like, have a moving meditation really makes a difference for me. It allows me to get--, actually zone out, clear my mind, and it helps me kinda also tap into, like, my own animal nature, too. Cause there's things that we do during bike tour that I would never do in regular life that is just kinda, like--. I don't know, I just, it's, it's like you become feral <both laugh>, and I just love it. I just love how feral we become, or when we're--when you're hiking and you're like, like, you wash up in a ice cold stream of water. Or I don't know, like you just <laugh>. I just love it. I love it. I need those reminders for myself. And also, what I also love is that it's not a bike race. It's--it's about community. So we do it together, no one's left behind. It's not a race. I'm not a fast biker, I take my time. And so, it really gives people the permission to, to show up and it's kind of tricky right now because of COVID, how ones can do that safely. But, oh, I cannot wait to get to return to my feral state <laugh>.
Music Break - “SAGA” plays.
Mia: I want to, though, spend a little bit of time talking about some of the practices that you have in BFF, as well. (34:16) I think you all have just woven many different roads, many different ways of being to support this feminist project in the world. And they've included things like a Black feminist organizing school, to facilitation trainings, to vision labs where you're really understanding what people are needing and wanting in this time; to this, like, beautiful homecoming invitation through Jubilee. So I feel like there've been so many programs that have been organized to really meet specific needs in movement and specific needs of our communities in this moment. So, I'm kind of curious about two things and with that. You know, one, I think--. I kind of wanna know what you've learned from the kind of trajectory of BFF, the adaptations and pivots and kind of offerings that you've made. What has this road kind of taught you? And also, because we do facilitation trainings at ESII too, there's, you know, just on the geeky side, I know there's a lot of facilitators out, who listen to this. So, you know, what are some of the most exciting lessons you've learned from the facilitation trainings you've organized as well? So yeah, so can you, you know, first just share a little bit about, like, kind of the road of where BFF is now and what you've learned through being responsive and the pivots that were needed to, kind of, meet movement and community needs, and then, some exciting stories from some of the experiences that you've had, like the facilitation training.
Paris: Yeah, you know, I think of us, as BFF, as an experiment, and so, I'm willing to try things, and part of the, the way that I like to try things is I like to ask people, what do you want? (36:07) That's how some of our first programming started, like our facilitation training. I noticed that there just weren't any facilitation folks who were really thinking about, how do you facilitate movement spaces? And also similarly around our organizing school. Literally I would be like, hey, I have this idea; will you take a survey and tell me if you're interested? And then, people would be so generous and say, yeah, this is my idea; this is what I wanna learn. And I think, I like to experiment. I do. I like to say, oh, what's this format? What's that format? I mean I think COVID definitely <laugh> keeps requiring us to pivot like, ooh, what about this? What about that? And so I think I just have a really open--, just an openness to experiment, to trying new things. And then also, there's just some tried and true things that are just, we're always gonna take with us, but I'm just always interested in experimentation and also getting folks' feedback. Like, okay, what's your--, I learned this during my Caroline Fellowship that I did almost 10 years ago, I guess maybe, I don't know. Where it was, test an idea before you go all the way to complete it, cause, you know, someone may already be doing it, or--. That's part of what the survey's about: Hey, does this already exist? If it existed, would you come to it? And so, I get feedback on the front end. So, I have a, a bias to action, and a willingness to experiment. Yeah, and sometimes experiments go great, and then sometimes they're kinda flops, and sometimes they're in between, and we learn along the way. So it's not just doing it, it's the how we did it. And then it's also the evaluation too, that I find to be really important. (38:01) I think one of my favorite things around the facilitation for movement experience is that I, you know, some of it is like just personally just, like, huh. I'm, like, a mad scientist and based off my own experience, right? So, I really loved Inca Mohamed's facilitation style and really had a strong identification with it as, like, a similar style of my own, and then really enjoyed Makhani Themba's facilitation style and was like, that's not mine at all. But I really enjoyed it and just thought, what would happen if I just asked both of them to do a training? Because their styles are so interesting. They're, they're different and they offer different things, and they've also been doing this for decades. And, you know, the premise behind facilitation for movement is that a lot of us, oftentimes in these jobs, we get called because something's happened, but we oftentimes don't get the skill development that we need. And it's--, if you're the loudest person in the room, then you can facilitate a meeting, and that generally is not the case. So, I wanted there to be a space for folks who have been doing this for a while to beef it up with some of the best, and especially best whose skills are very different and yet, very complimentary. And so, I would say that's some of my favorite parts of that is that I think that people need the opportunity to experience--, I'm a experiential person. You know, I'm learning all these things about myself. So I think, through experience, I get to get--be more clear, I get to understand more. And if I get to see and witness other people doing something, I can be like, oh, that's kind of like me. Like, that's a possibility model. And to find that very encouraging. And so, I so love Makhani's style; it's not my style. And it could be easy to be like, well damn, I'm not, not like Makhani; I'm, I just suck, right? And--, versus saying, okay, there's Makhani's, there's Inca's, there's Mia’s, there's all types of styles, and you don't just need to copy one, but you should experience them and see what's possible in the world. (40:15) And so, I think that's my favorite part, and I've been thinking a lot about that again, around this training, especially for our members, around--. Yeah, I think that's also, like, another thing is that we need more entry points for folks who wanna be on this path. Facilitation, like, organizing, it's an art and a science, and you gotta train, you know? And so, I think that's one of my, my favorite things is that, you know, you get such distinct different people who offer so much in their technique.
Mia: Mm. Thank you for that. I really love this, too. I love that, like, gotta train. I'm like, I'm sitting with that. I'm thinking that about that in particular about what that means for feminisms. Cause in my ethos, feminisms is, like, kind of a core way of how we get in right relationship with each other, right? Like it's, this is like very basic, like, can we respect and honor and be in right relationship and ensure that no one's labor or kindness is exploited? That no one--, that we're not taking for granted? That we have all the capacity and support that we need? And a lot of that is training, training to be in those kind of right relationships. So, to that end, adrienne had a question for you about, are all Black feminist futures rooted in transformative justice? And I was thinking about that in relationship to like, oh, we have to train to be in spaces where we can be accountable and be community based in our solutions, when there's violence that has occurred, when we are breaking up with patriarchy, the importance of recognizing how much then we have to transform the nature of our relationships. And so, I was like, oh, that's a lot of training. So, that's what led me to this question of, like, you know, are all Black feminist futures rooted in transformative justice? And, and can you talk to us a little bit about transformative justice in the scope of what it means in relationship to, like, breaking up with patriarchy? (42:23)
Paris: Yeah, that's a really fun question to think about. When people ask, what makes BFF different? Or, you know, when folks like to, I say devolve and try to pit white feminisms versus Black feminisms, it's like two different conversations--that's why call it it's, you've devolved there. But I do think that there are a couple key components that we want folks to be able to understand. So one, we understand that around systems--and oppression is a system--it's not just individual behaviors, right? That we also understand that our work must be transnational. That it's not just around the US, that in fact the US is an empire and has deadly genocidal impact around the world. I think another piece that Black feminisms understands is that our, our families and our communities are a site of struggle. And along with that is that is, because it's a site of struggle, and because we belong in our families and communities; responding the same way, meaning using a punishment based response is not--, it hasn't worked, and it's not gonna work for us. And that we have to really be thinking about transforming our relationships. And I think that's one of the most juiciest invitations around breaking up with patriarchy. Unlike other types of work, our work around sexism, misogynoir is oftentimes--, it's so intimate, cause we're talking about the relationship with ourselves, but also the people with our family. (44:07) You know, we don't live as multiracial lives as much. Oftentimes we live in all Black neighborhoods and all Black families, the majority of people, right? But our lives are multi gendered, right? And so, when we're talking about breaking up with patriarchy, it's not around somebody who lives around the corner. We're literally talking about what's happening within our own family, and within our--, and sometimes it doesn't need--necessarily mean that there's the--, it's also within ourselves, right? It's not just like, oh, because my brother was here, my dad--. It's also what we've understood ourselves. So, we have to be willing to think about transformative justice. And especially for us, the acknowledgement that one of the first sites of harm in our family is patriarchal violence, right? So, we're talking about, you know, intimate partner violence, we're talking about all of that type of violence, like sexual violence, and what that means. And I'm really interested, and when we talk about patriarchal violence; for us, we are talking about it as a system, that has ramifications that's within our cultures, how we think about women, girls, gender expansive people. But it's also a way that we must abolish it. And we know that we're not gonna abolish it through locking people up. We know we're not gonna abolish it by punishing people. The way that we abolish it is being survivor centered, number one, right? So making sure that survivors have the resources, by disrupting the culture, and creating spaces for transformation where the people that create harm are transformed. And so, I think that's, like, one of the biggest pieces around Black feminisms is that, you know, Mariame Kaba reminds us, around any type of abolition work, anything that--. We're up against a system that requires a destruction. (46:03) It's not only in--. Ruthie Gilmore: it's not just what you're gonna destroy, it's what you're gonna build. So Black feminisms is a call to deep building. It's like, we want to reorganize our family units, our community units. We wanna reorganize the way that we are with each other. They have to be absolutely different and transformed. And so, can it be trying? Yes. Right? Absolutely. It's huge. It does not mean that we're always gonna get along. I think transformative justice has this, oftentimes, this idea that means that everyone's gonna be best friends. No, I think it does have us call into imagining the wholeness of another person and setting boundaries for that person, which can mean you--, I want you to be whole, but not near me, right? And so, which again, great lesson, great, you're healing your whole, but I don't want you around me. That's not a part of the deal, right?
Mia: Mm-Hmm.
Paris: And so, I do think Black feminisms is a call to transformative justice, and yeah, I mean, I think that's what sets us apart from other feminist practices.
Music Break - “KiN” instrumental plays
Mia: So, I just got two more questions; I know we're rounding it out. I'd love to hear, in general, what's emerging for you? What is the next experiment, or what is the place where BFF is experimenting most right now?
Paris: Mmm. So we just got finished with organizational planning, and it was really juicy. And I'm like, I'm doing my best to stay within that <laugh> and I've got ideas <laugh>.
Mia: Of course.
Paris: So. You know. Right now, what's really sitting with me is a couple things. I keep thinking about abortion access, to be honest. (48:04) I was talking to a dear friend today, and I was like, wow, I can't believe that folks are right now more concerned--, or less concerned that abortion's being banned, and more concerned around their 501c3 status. Like, what kind of world are we in? It's kind of wild. Are we willing to do what it's gonna take to get what we need? So, that's something I'm--, I'm sitting with in reference to abortion access right now. I'm also thinking a lot around broader feminist movement. I-I'm also thinking a lot around COVID and our demands around that. Like, what are they? <laugh> We need. The people need. I see this as an opportunity to build mass, and there's so many ways to be united, but it just seems like whether it's the will, or the exhaustion, or the tired. So, I think right now, I'm just so interested in people who are, like, fuck what you heard. Like, let's go get it. And even if it's not from the people that you expect--. I mean, there's so many reasons to take to the street right now, <laugh>, and it's just a lot of business as usual. I've been thinking a lot around teachers. My sister just actually is recovering from COVID. She's a kindergarten teacher. She got it at school. They've literally just left teachers in a really terrible place.
Mia: Mm-Hmm.
Paris: These teachers love their kids, and would much rather get COVID than--. You know, like they--, there's no protection. I keep thinking about them. They have a union, What's their union doing for them? Right? You saw what was happening in Chicago, so.
Mia: Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Paris: I am seeing and thinking about and wanting to feel the power of movement right now. And it's not just a call out to others, it's a call out to me. So it's a now, whatcha gonna do about it, then? (50:12) Right? And that's what I'm trying to figure out. What am I gonna do about it then?
Mia: Yeah, so, is that the most resonant question for you right now? Whatcha gonna do about it then?
Paris: Whatcha gonna do about it then?
Mia: Mm-Hmm.
Paris: Are we gonna keep trying to wait for someone else to solve it, and get into, like, the, the movement, like, that's my work! Well, if it's your work, then go do it, right? <Mia laughs> Or are we just gonna go do it? You know? And so, what are we willing to, and I know it feels like "henny penny, the sky is falling all the time," but it feels a little bit more imminent this time.
Mia: Mm-Hmm.
Paris: You know? And I'm thinking about climate change. I'm thinking about, should this be a priority of every organization right now, you know?
Mia: Mm-Hmm.
Paris: So, I'm thinking, I'm thinking, I'm wondering, I am talking to collaborators; and I gotta tell you, I feel a little, you know, I'm still trying to hibernate, but I am feeling the little fire, kind of, pick up on the inside. So I mean, you know, we'll see what happens. <Laugh> To be determined. TBD
<laughter>
Mia: I love it. I love the--. Inside of that, feels to me like the little fire that's stoked, to me, is also--, is like, oh, so, you know, whatchu gonna do about it then? is really--, it's not that you gotta do it alone. It's not that you gotta figure it all out by yourself, but it's like, what you, you know, whatchu gonna do about it? <Laugh> Mm.
Paris: Yeah. And it's not finger--. Some of it is kind of like, hey! y'all! whatchu doing? But it's also saying like, okay, I'm one of those people too. I don't know, I keep thinking about like, some--. I am, I don't know, I'm, I'm thinking--. I am being excited by the extraordinary right now, and I don't know what that is, but I'm still like, mm, you know? (52:11) Cause it's, like, what will you say, when there's no abortion access, what you were doing? You're like, well I still had my c3. Okay, so there's that. So, just trying to figure it out, Mia, just still trying to figure it out.
Mia: <Laugh> Mm, I love it. Well, thank you for trying to figure it out, and for being willing to be inside of the hard questions and looking at the places where we really, where we are, have, in such places of deep, deep struggle and deep attack. And to know that, you know, we have such abundant resources though, too, right? Like, we have the calling and the guidance from our ancestors. We have the fires that are stoked within, and then we have each other.
Paris: Yep.
Mia: And all the different ways that we practice together can get us closer to, you know, what we doing about it. So, I appreciate what you're doing about it. I appreciate the invitation and the work of BFF and for you spending your sacred and precious time with me in this moment.
Paris: Thank you, Mia. Thank you for all you do. All the million things that you do in the world.
Mia: <Laugh> I don't know. Trying to get it down to just a few now. But that being said, how can people find you, Paris? How can people find BFF if they're looking?
Paris: Okay, so hit BFF on all the socials. You can find them: BlackFeministFuture. We're on everything. Me? I'm on Instagram: HarrietsRevenge. And I just got into Twitter. It took me years, but in the last six months I feel like I finally got it, and I'm enjoying it. So you can find me there at ParisHatcher. (54:03)
Mia: Aw, yay. Excellent.
Paris: It's fun over there.
Mia: Look, you ahead of me. I--. Look, I think I may have started an account [CROSS TALK]
Paris: It took me years. People kept saying, like, try; I'd be like, like, no, I can't. But now, and maybe--. Yeah, now I just really am enjoying it. And also for folks who share their TikToks on Instagram, don't stop. I love it. Cause I'm not gonna get TikTok. I don't want another platform, but I love watching all these TikToks, so keep sharing it, please.
Mia: Right? I-I co-sign that one. <Laugh>. Well so, also thank you all so much for listening to our conversation. If you like what you heard, spread the word by speaking, posting, and reviewing the conversation in real life and on the internets. This podcast is produced by Mari Orozco. Production coordination by Aliana Coello. Transcription is by Hannah Pepper-Cunningham. Music for the Emergent Strategy Podcast is provided by Hurray for the Riff Raff, from their album, "Life on Earth." To support the ongoing work of ESII, you can make a donation at www.alliedmedia.org/esii. (55:25)