Note: Dead Eyes transcripts have been generated with automated software and may contain errors. We advise you to listen to episode audio before quoting in print.
Dead Eyes, Episode 29, “The Blacklist List”
Connor Ratliff OK, I'm going to start out by telling you the ending first in 2021, I was cast in a small speaking role on NBC's The Blacklist. At the time, I had never seen a single episode of the show. All I knew about it was that it stars James Spader and that he wears a hat.
(Dramatic music starts)
So to prepare for my episode, I decided to watch all of it. And if you've ever binge watched nearly eight full seasons of a network TV drama, it's an intense experience. In this case, it's a pretty dark show with an almost disorienting number of twists and turns along the way. But I think my watch-through was probably a little different from anyone else's because as I watched it every now and then, I'd recognize snippets of dialog or a scene or character would seem a little too familiar. And then it would dawn on me.
It was a role I'd been up for. Eventually, I went back and searched through my old emails for Blacklist auditions and confirmed that I had auditioned for the show six times for six different characters. And I was rejected six times. The Blacklist is, at its core, a show about a list. Criminal mastermind, ruthless killer and jolly raconteur Raymond Reddington has a rolodex of international criminals who are so good at what they do, the FBI has no idea that they even exist. He cuts a secret deal to deliver them all to justice for reasons that are so complicated, they are still unpacking them after over 150 hours of television.
(Dramatic music fades)
And now watching the show for the first time, I began making a list of my own, six actors who were so good at what they do that they had been cast in roles instead of me.
Connor Ratliff Well, it's very nice to meet you, Jimmie.
Jimmie Saito Nice to meet you. Thanks for having me.
Connor Ratliff Actors like Jimmie Saito.
Jimmie Saito So, so you had the list, right? And I was the first one on your list?
Connor Ratliff You were the first.
(Classical guitar music starts)
Jimmie Saito Oh, that's hilarious.
Connor Ratliff So it was season four, episode 10.
Jimmie Saito Something like that. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff Had you auditioned for The Blacklist before or was this your first time?
Jimmie Saito No that was the first time, and I knew of The Blacklist. I just didn't, I don't watch a lot of TV shows, so a lot of times when I go in to audition for shows, I have no idea what it's about.
Connor Ratliff The Blacklist is one of those shows that I hadn't watched it because especially if you miss the first season of a show, suddenly you're 22 hours behind.
Jimmie Saito Oh, yeah, absolutely.
(Classical music fades)
Connor Ratliff When I finally booked the part, I thought, I'm going to watch the whole thing if I can like
(Theme music starts)
Jimmie Saito That's a lot of work.
Connor Ratliff It's a lot. It's like, well, because I'm in the 170th episode of it
Jimmie Saito Right
Connor Ratliff On The Blacklist, they track down criminals and often kill them. My version of a procedural is to track down actors and ask them what they remember and how they feel about it. But just to make things a little more exciting, picture me doing it while wearing a hat.
Voice of God This is Dead Eyes, a podcast about one actor's quest to find out why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers.
Connor Ratliff My name is Connor Ratliff. I'm an actor and comedian. 22 years ago, I was fired by Tom Hanks. The reason I was told at the time he had looked at my audition tape and he thought that I had dead eyes.
Jimmie Saito I would love for him to tell me I have dead eyes.
Connor Ratliff If it ever happens, make sure to let me know.
Jimmie Saito What if he cast me because he says, you have dead eyes, and that's very perfect for this role.
Connor Ratliff It would be a real gut punch if I found out Tom Hanks was looking for actors with dead eyes, and I don't get the call.
Jimmie Saito Oh man.
Connor Ratliff And that's the short version.
(Theme music fades).
(Blacklist opening sound)
Connor Ratliff Season four, episode 10, the first Blacklist character I auditioned for was named Rafa and he was one half of a couple that the script described as Puerto Rican. They were a husband and wife crime scene cleanup team or cleaners, as the show calls them.
(Jazzy piano music starts)
I emailed my manager when I got the audition because I'm not Puerto Rican. He told me it was still a good idea to go in and be seen by the casting directors because despite what was in the script, the breakdown said "please submit all ethnicities and interesting character types." This is something that happens every now and then and always makes me feel a little uncomfortable, but I have booked jobs before where I wasn't technically right for the role. If they like you, they just rewrite the character. Rafa would be rewritten as Fudo once Jimmie, who is Japanese-American, was cast in the role.
Jimmie Saito I feel like most of the time they have no idea what they want, but then until they see something else, then it just (snaps) you know, they just changed their mind. And that's just how it is, right?
(Jazzy piano music fades)
Connor Ratliff One of the first things that you say is you look over at the character of Dembe and say,
Jimmie Saito as Fudo Well aren't you a tall drink of chocolate milk? I'd like you to work.
(Jazzy piano music starts again)
Connor Ratliff I think that reads very differently coming from me. You know what I mean? It just there's something about it and
Jimmie Saito (laughs) Right.
Connor Ratliff that is just there's just an extra layer of presumption. So you did that first episode, two more seasons go by.
(Jazzy piano music fades)
Jimmie Saito Yeah, it was a long time.
Connor Ratliff How did you find out you were coming back?
Jimmie Saito It was just very random because remember the breakdown said possible recurring. Yeah. Mr. Kaplan had this whole like big story arc. So I'm thinking, OK, this is kind of cool, like to be the new cleaner and to be on the on The Blacklist. And I feel like, oh, it's actually a cool part and it could go somewhere.
Connor Ratliff Mr. Kaplan is a major character in the first four seasons of The Blacklist. She is Raymond Reddington's crime scene cleaner who is fiercely loyal until a series of dramatic events makes her his enemy. The new cleaners seemed like they were being set up as an equally big deal on the show.
Connor Ratliff You're introduced in a way that as a viewer you think, Oh, we're going to be seeing a lot more of these two.
Jimmie Saito I think it was like the season finale episode of that season.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Jimmie Saito That episode, they wanted to bring us back and and they never called. The casting was just like, Yeah, it was an it's an idea, but it just never happened. And then three years go by randomly, Hey, they're bringing your character back. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting. That's cool.
Connor Ratliff You're introduced in season four. And then, according to IMDb, you come back in season seven.
Jimmie Saito Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And that's enough time, particularly as a as a working character actor. That's enough time that once two full seasons have passed, you're probably in a state of mind that like, it's gone, it's over they're never bringing us back.
Jimmie Saito Oh, yeah, absolutely. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff It's also funny because I believe there are times during seasons five and six where a reference will be made to like, call the twins like, or we'll get the twins in on this.
Jimmie Saito Wait, wait, wait, wait did they did they mention that in five and six?
Connor Ratliff I know that there were times when something was referenced about calling the twins for a crime scene
Jimmie Saito Wait, but I don't think we're twins.
Connor Ratliff I think it's I think you've been referred to as the twins, like in a shorthand for like the brother sister team.
Jimmie Saito Wait, really?
Connor Ratliff I think so. Yeah. I'll double check it. I'll go.
Jimmie Saito That's insane, because I didn't know we were twins. I thought we were still a couple.
Connor Ratliff Let me look.
Jimmie Saito Man, that's so hilarious because like, I'm playing the character and I have no idea what the character is about
Connor Ratliff Right now, I'm on Reddit and people are, it's in The Blacklist subreddit.
Jimmie Saito OK.
Connor Ratliff One year ago, it says Fudo will be in this upcoming season, last seen in four ten, season four Episode 10 as on of Red's new cleaners, but Red made reference to the twins in five 22, I think. Yeah, everyone's just referring to you as the twins, it says.
Jimmie Saito Wait really?
Connor Ratliff Yes, your characters are brother and sister.
(Orchestral music starts)
Jimmie Saito Wow, I had no idea.
Connor Ratliff Or at least that's the shorthand by which all fans know them at this point.
Jimmie Saito That is insane. I thought we were a couple. I mean, it was, I guess it was never. I just based it off of the actual breakdown.
Connor Ratliff I'm glad that wasn't me making that up.
Jimmie Saito Man, that's crazy.
Sue Jean Kim We're twins. I didn't know that until now.
Connor Ratliff I had a quick call with Sue Jean Kim, the actor who played Sakiya, the other half of the crime scene cleanup due, just to see if she had the same understanding of the characters as Jimmie.
Sue Jean Kim I didn't necessarily feel like a couple, but I wasn't sure what it was. Now I feel like a really bad actor for not having done my homework,
Connor Ratliff So no one ever told you?
Sue Jean Kim No one told us (laughs). But you'd think it's a basic question to ask, like, what's our relationship to each other?
Connor Ratliff And then when you came back because you were in a few episodes when you came back, what was that like?
(Orchestral music fades)
Jimmie Saito Well, I mean, it was exciting at first when they told me, Hey, they're thinking about bringing your character back.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Jimmie Saito But then, it's almost like there was nothing going on with the character. There's no storyline, and it just felt like, well, I feel like a glorified extra right now. There was one episode where I was just there for Dembe's birthday and there was no lines. I was just there. And so my agent and I were just like, Well, I need something to do. So they rewrote the scene so that they gave me, like, I think, two lines, and then they gave Sue Jean one line. So I thought, OK, it's going to get better.
Connor Ratliff Part of you wants to assume like, Oh, maybe they're having us be here for a while because they want to establish a continuity. And then maybe you're going to get a big plotline.
Jimmie Saito Yeah, I mean, you know, and I appreciate every job offer that comes my way. But also, they weren't giving me the billing that I wanted. And at that time, I was coming off two seasons of a show. So it's it's a huge pay difference. You know, it's like they were still trying to pay me the same amount three years ago. For me, it's like, OK, either you pay me the money I want and I don't have to do anything.
Connor Ratliff Right.
(String quartet music starts)
Jimmie Saito Or if you're not going to pay me the money that I want, then give me something to do. It can't be not pay me what I want and not give me anything to do.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Jimmie Saito It's almost like why am I there then? So but I mean, I love I love that set. I love the people on it. It's just there was nothing for me to do.
Connor Ratliff Did you have a conversation with someone in terms of like not wanting to come back or wanting to come back only if they had something for you to do or did it just sort of fizzle out?
Jimmie Saito So the last episode, you'll probably notice that Sue Jean's back and I'm not there, and that's the episode where I finally was like, Well, I'm not coming back.
Sue Jean Kim I guess, like I had a little bit of guilt about that, like, I'm doing this, I'm going in, but I don't know if I should have been in solidarity with my because he's my partner and you know, you can't help but think of your fictional relationship kind of playing out in real life in that way where I'm like, Am I supposed to stand by my man here, my twin? Now that I know that (laughs)
Connor Ratliff Our one power we have as actors is saying no to stuff and it's the hardest thing to do.
Jimmie Saito And I understand that too, a lot of actors, it's tough for them to say no because work is work. But I've said, like, if I felt like it wasn't advancing my career, then I would, I would say no.
Connor Ratliff And when you do it, it actually weirdly does feel good.
Jimmie Saito It's a good feeling.
(String quartet music ends)
Connor Ratliff We'll be right back.
(Blacklist opening sound)
Season four, episode 17, a few months after my first Blacklist audition, I found myself walking back to Chelsea Piers.
(Violin music starts)
That's where they filmed parts of the show, and it's where their production and casting offices are located. This time I went there to audition for the role of Bobby J, a man who works for Mr. Kaplan, and another part which was listed as possible recurring.
By this point in the series, Mr. Kaplan had essentially become the show's central antagonist, and it looked like they were setting up Bobby J to be one of her most trusted associates. I lost the role to actor Bruce Faulk, who had auditioned for The Blacklist many times by this point.
Bruce Faulk Ten. Exactly 10 times.
Connor Ratliff How early? What was the earliest one?
(Violin music fades)
Bruce Faulk The earliest one was 9/18/15. So in 2015.
Connor Ratliff What season it would just say what episode or what season that was?
Bruce Faulk Episode 307. So that's season three, yeah.
Connor Ratliff So that's a lot in basically a year because your episode that you finally book is season four, episode 17.
Bruce Faulk And in there, there was one that was a booking that was like, Hey, they've seen you enough times you're booked for this, you know, it was a small role is three lines driving a truck, you're shooting Monday and I was like, Cool, let's go. Then they canceled it. (laughs).
(Fun music starts)
Connor Ratliff So you booked a part.
Bruce Faulk Yeah, like, like just, you know, the casting directors all knew me and everybody, the producers at that point knew me. They were like, OK, he's booked. We we need a guy to drive a truck, you know, vaguely ethnically ambiguous and say two lines. Bruce can do that. There we go. You're booked for Monday. Canceled.
Connor Ratliff Were you booked at a point where you got paid still? Or was it an early enough cancelation that it was?
Bruce Faulk No. It was an early enough cancelation and they hadn't sent me the boards and the contracts and the thises and the thats.
Connor Ratliff Ten times and a cancelation in the mix. That's enough time to start experiencing a kind of evolving state of emotion because you get callbacked that first time you're like, Oh, they liked me enough to bring me back. But then when they're calling you back for the eighth or ninth time, how did you feel? Do you remember how you felt as it felt during that process?
Bruce Faulk So like the first time is, Hey, cool, this is Blacklist. Oh, OK, I didn't get that one, you know, whatever. Then when you get to like four and five, it's hey, come on, guys. This is, you know, this is another three lines, didn't you see me say to the three lines before? But I was always actually sort of thankful to the casting director.
They were pulling for me, you know what I mean? Like, I would walk in the room and they were like, Hey, Bruce, you know, we want you to get this one. But what I actually booked was a role called Bobby, and I signed a contract for a recurring character.
(Fun music fades)
Connor Ratliff And I'll read the description of Bobby J, Bobby J, 40, an affable and simple man working at an abandoned ice rink. He genuinely cares about his boss. Two scenes possible recurring. I look at a sentence like that an affable and simple man working at an abandoned ice rink. It's one of those things where, like, that's not a job, people don't abandoned ice rinks, do not have a staff that maintains them.
Bruce Faulk (laughs)
Bruce Faulk as Bobby J Hello, Mr. Kaplan. How you feeling this morning.
Susan Blommaert as Mr. Kaplan Better. Thank you. I'm an hour out with the final shipment, is there room on the ice?
Bruce Faulk as Bobby J All organized and ready for you. Nothing to worry about.
Bruce Faulk The first episode and the only episode ultimately that I shot was in an ice rink and I have all these bodies that I'm putting away. And there was this whole conversation with me and the woman who's James Spader's mother. And there was going to be a whole different story line between James Spader––
(Orchestral music starts)
Connor Ratliff Hearing Bruce say this was shocking. The question of Raymond Reddington's identity is one of the show's core mysteries and the idea that Mr. Kaplan, his former cleaner, whom he personally shot in the head who had survived and became his mortal enemy, being his mother? This would have been a huge detail for me to miss during my watch through up to that point.
Bruce Faulk Yeah yeah, that's that was the twist that she is his mother.
Connor Ratliff I did not grasp that she was Reddington's mother. I don't know if that's something that
(Orchestral music ends)
Bruce Faulk it didn't happen. That's why you didn't grasp it, because that was the plan that was. They sent me other stuff that said, so here's how the storyline is going to progress, that she is his mother, actually. And then they canceled that storyline.
(Orchestral music begins again)
Connor Ratliff OK, that may be the biggest scoop of the episode so far.
Bruce Faulk Uh oh. I'm sure I signed an NDA five years ago, so don't get me sued Connor.
Connor Ratliff I don't think at this point a non-spoiler spoiler from behind the scenes of four seasons ago. I can't imagine that is still an active secret. I think it's more of a forgotten, almost secret. You know, tonight actually is when there's a Blacklist episode that is being promoted, as all of the answers are finally going to be delivered eight seasons into the show. So
Bruce Faulk Maybe they'll have me back
Connor Ratliff When you were done filming, at that point, you still believed you were going to be doing more episodes and part of a bigger reveal, a bigger arc.
(Orchestral music ends)
Bruce Faulk Yeah, yeah. I talked to somebody, you know, small world, right? My friend is my son goes to school with the guy who's a pastor at a church and the woman who does costumes on the show is a clergy member.
So I was in his car and we were driving home, and he called her because he was like, Oh, you're on The Blacklist, let me call my friend. And she was like, Oh yeah, yeah, Bruce, I remember you the other day. Yeah, I think we're going to see you again. Like, the costume lady was like planning me to come back. So, hey, hey, hey.
Connor Ratliff And was it just a gradual like the call doesn't come? Or was there ever a phone call where they said, Actually, we've we've changed our plans?
Bruce Faulk It was the the world of being an actor. It was the yawning void of nothing.
Connor Ratliff How did you feel when your episode aired? I assume by the time it aired, you were maybe starting to get the sense that Bobby J was not going to come back.
Bruce Faulk No, I didn't at all. Because, you know, The Blacklist turns around really quick. I mean, you know, it was shot and it was it aired three weeks later or a month later.
Connor Ratliff So you watched it and you thought, this is the beginning of Bobby J's arc?
Bruce Faulk Yeah, I told my family, posted it on Facebook. Watch me recur. You know, dumbass that I am.
(Flute music starts)
Connor Ratliff The night Bruce and I talked, the episode of The Blacklist that aired did not deliver all the answers that people had been waiting for, regardless of what the commercials were saying at the time. And as of season nine, Bruce has not returned to the show. Bobby J ended up being a one and done character.
(Flute music fades)
(Blacklist opening sound)
Season five, episode one, I return to Chelsea Piers to audition for my biggest Blacklist role yet, Hawkins.
(Clarinet music starts)
Described as wormy and slump shouldered yet brilliant accountant for an unusual business. This was a character that they were promising would be around for at least three episodes and maybe more. The role of Hawkins, he ultimately became Heddie Hawkins, and she ended up appearing in 10 episodes in season six, seven, eight and nine, played by an actor whose work I was already very familiar with.
Aida Turturro Hey Connor, how are you? It's Aida Turturro here from The Sopranos, but actually, what am I talking about? I'm not really from The Sopranos because I'm from Blacklist for you, sweetie pie.
Connor Ratliff I wasn't having much luck getting in touch with Aida until I found out she had joined Cameo. That online service where you can pay for personalized messages from celebrities.
(Clarinet music fades)
Aida Turturro First of all, total congratulations for booking the job. How many times did you audition right? And then the fact that you auditioned for Hawkins, could you imagine
Connor Ratliff It was not surprising to me that they went with a well-known actor. The Blacklist is filled with famous guest stars, from Alan Alda to Isabella Rossellini to Al Roker. It just never occurred to me that Aida and I would ever be in the running for the same character. It was another example of how often they don't know what they're looking for until they suddenly do.
Aida Turturro That happens to me all the time. You know, one minute they want me, then they want somebody this way, then they want that way.
(Swing music starts).
They want the man, they want a woman. This is the world we live in. But not only
Connor Ratliff Aida didn't have to go to Chelsea Piers or even send in a tape.
Aida Turturro And I didn't. I was lucky. I actually I didn't audition. They actually offered it to me. And, you know, that was very, very nice. And it was funny because when I got the job, I was headed to, where was I going to? Sicily. So I lost my whole Sicilian beautiful trip. But what was I going to do? I was
Connor Ratliff It was totally worth the 90 bucks,
Aida Turturro but I think you're gonna have a great time if you didn't do it already. And I hope that if I ever go back on it and then you're on it, you're going to be like Aida, it's Connor, I'll be like, No way. Come on, we'll have like this crazy scene together. Maybe we'll do a whole dancing combination. Who knows what they're going to write us? It's possible, but I'm really, really happy for you. Congratulations, sorry you weren't Hawkins, but thanks for giving me the role. Lots of love and I look forward to it when we work together. Ciao (air kiss) bye Connor.
Connor Ratliff When we return, a frigid crime scene, a gloveless mortician and a man with a chip in his forehead, Dead Eyes will be right back.
(Swing music ends)
(Blacklist opening sound)
Season five, episode 13, another five months went by and I found myself back at Chelsea Piers for yet another audition for The Blacklist. This was December 2017, the same day I was auditioning for a main role in the pilot for What We Do in the Shadows. I had to memorize five pages for that one and four pages for The Blacklist, so that's nine pages of memorization, and I didn't mind it as much for What We Do in the Shadows, because that would be a series regular. Genuinely, if I'd book that, it would have been life changing. But the four pages I had to learn for The Blacklist were for a one day guest star and the dialogue was all crime scene exposition. Not a character that seemed likely to return.
(Oboe music starts)
In the end, I did not book the role on What We Do in the Shadows and the part of forensics investigator Muncie on The Blacklist went to actor Neal Lerner
Neal Lerner When I was in Los Angeles for 10 years, doing a lot of TV and film. I once went in for a show five times and on the fifth time in, it had gone great. They were laughing and I literally stopped. I didn't plan on doing this, but I literally stopped and I said, Is there anything else that I can do before I leave this room so that you will finally cast me?
(Oboe music pauses)
And like, thank God, they laughed.
Connor Ratliff I don't know if I'll ever be in the right frame of mind to ask that question.
Neal Lerner Yeah, it has to come out the right way, you know? Yeah.
(Oboe music starts again)
Connor Ratliff When I auditioned for the part that you booked, it was originally named forensics investigator Muncie.
Neal Lerner That's right.
Connor Ratliff By the time it actually was credited in like what IMDb has listed and I'm what I assume is on the episode is state police forensics lead investigator.
(Oboe music fades)
Neal Lerner That's correct. It got longer.
Connor Ratliff It got longer, but it also got slightly less personal.
Neal Lerner Yeah lost the name. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff It's just it's all title. And because there's something about Muncie that makes you feel like, Oh, we're going to see Muncie again.
Neal Lerner I know it's a whole different feel. It's a whole different feel with when you don't have the name. I once insisted I was working on a film and they they titled my character a gay man. And I literally said you got to take that off my trailer right now. And you got to give me a name. And that's what goes in the script and they gave me a name right there.
Connor Ratliff It does make a huge difference because whenever, whenever I've been cast as something that is just the title or a description, it does feel dehumanizing in a strange way.
Neal Lerner You feel very functional, you know, very functional.
Connor Ratliff Yeah and and and I don't mind if the part is functional.
Neal Lerner No, no.
Connor Ratliff But that little gesture of getting a name, it makes such a big difference.
Neal Lerner I agree. I agree. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff So when you were actually now your scene, where were you filming because you were on a you weren't at Chelsea Piers, you were on a physical location for that episode.
Neal Lerner It was the coldest week of winter and we were shooting in some field in Staten Island.
Connor Ratliff So this is December. December. Winter of 2017.
Neal Lerner Yes. And it was a desolate, huge open field, if you remember from the script, it's where all these bodies have been dug up.
Connor Ratliff It doesn't look as cold as I'm sure it was. When you see the scene, it looks, you know, brisk.
Neal Lerner That's the coldest conditions I've ever worked. In fact, they had warm up trucks that were sitting vans that were right off camera. So whenever cut was called, you know, if you had a moment or two, you could go sit in the in the warming van.
Connor Ratliff Mm-Hmm.
Neal Lerner I mean, it was really cold.
Connor Ratliff Does that affect the way you play the character when you're freezing cold?
Neal Lerner Well, I think you talk a little faster
Connor Ratliff Just to get through each take, cut off a few precious seconds of freezing
Neal Lerner as Muncie The chemical concentration in the soil isn't uniform. Some of the pockets are highly corrosive. Others are less toxic
Connor Ratliff In his scene, Neal is wearing a respirator, something that wasn't clear from the audition sides. It covers so much of his face that you can't even tell when his mouth is moving.
Neal Lerner I literally stopped the person like, Excuse me, I wasn't told I'm wearing a mask. You know, I'm thinking, you know my face, my face.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Neal Lerner So one of the I guess I pissed off one of the other lead actors and he said, just put on the goddamn mask.
Connor Ratliff Wow.
Neal Lerner And I was like, OK, oh yeah, OK, great. Yeah, terrific. And it was bizarre because I really couldn't hear them. And they really couldn't hear me. And so it wasn't satisfying in the way it often is when you when you finally get to do the scene,
Connor Ratliff Do you think that that moment of tension on the set, do you think that was exacerbated by the cold temperature?
Neal Lerner I'll say yes and no, I'll say yes, because it was so fucking cold, it was really inhuman. I mean, it was just that cold.
(Electric guitar music starts)
But I think the actors who were series regulars, I think are used to working fast. They know their roles well, and they probably knew we were in hazmat suits from head to toe, which I didn't. And so, you know, you're a guest star, you show up, you're excited to work, you know, you really want to, like, have the moments.
Connor Ratliff I was dramatizing it in my head. It sounds like the type of thing that a freezing cold person would say.
Neal Lerner Yeah, I think you're right. I think you're right.
Connor Ratliff Just put on the mask where it's almost like it reminds me of like a parent with a child when it's like, just get in the car
Neal Lerner Just do it right exactly
Connor Ratliff It's like you don't you understand, like, we have to go. We're running late.
Neal Lerner You know what? I think you're right, and you just saved me another two years of therapy. That is fantastic.
(Electric guitar music ends)
(Blacklist opening sound)
Connor Ratliff Season five, episode 21, auditioning for the role of Julius Hannelore, described in the casting breakdown as a meticulous mortician, and I have to say at this point, this was my fifth time being seen for The Blacklist, and I was starting to get kind of tired of walking all the way over to Chelsea Piers just to keep getting rejected. Which, of course, is exactly what happened when the role of Julius Hannelore went to actor Jeffrey Bean.
James Spader as Raymond Reddington Julius, how do you do it? How do you make a person more presentable in death than they were in life?
Jeffrey Bean as Julius Hannelore Family recipe formaldehyde, glutaraldehyde, humectants, dye, water and a secret sauce three generations in the making.
Connor Ratliff Jeffrey's scene is what I would describe as a classic Raymond Reddington threat scene. A person has something Reddington wants, so he delivers a colorful monologue ending with a threat.
Jeffrey Bean as Julius Hannelore Everything in its time and mackerel in August.
James Spader as Raymond Reddington I'm afraid I'm going to need my mackerel now. Or else the Sulzbergers are going to need to close the casket.
Jeffrey Bean as Julius Hannelore You wouldn't.
James Spader as Raymond Reddington I'd sooner take a knife to the Mona Lisa.
Connor Ratliff I'll kill your dog. I'll destroy this priceless work of art. In this case, I will shoot the face of the dead body that you are carefully preparing for an open casket viewing,
Jeffrey Bean Which was a live dude.
(Classical guitar music starts)
They had some, like latex prosthetic eyelids over his eyes. And I had to sew, be sewing those shut. So I had to literally stick a real needle through this latex without hitting his actual eye underneath the latex. And this guy, you know, I mean, he couldn't move. The camera was like right above us straight down on him. So here I am, coming at his eye with a needle and he's can't flinch or anything. I mean, it was crazy.
Connor Ratliff I never actually bothered to wonder whether that was like a dummy model that you were operating on or a real person.
Jeffrey Bean I assumed that it would be a dummy going in. You know, I'd never done anything like this before.
(Classical guitar music fades)
Connor Ratliff Did you have a conversation with the guy who was the dead body in between takes?
Jeffrey Bean I never spoke with him, you know, because he had this prosthetic stuff on. He didn't really move much, and I think he was just trying to get himself zenned out to be able to lay there as still as possible. And I didn't want to like mess with his juju or anything, you know? So and I was, you know, I was so nervous going in trying to thread that needle. Oh God. And I'm sure he was. I was just trying to make sure he felt like he's in OK hands that I wasn't going to like jab him in the eye with this thing.
Connor Ratliff You know, you feel bad enough when you make a mistake on set, like if you flub a word. But if you flub running a needle through the small prosthetic that is over someone's eyes, you have no room for error there. That is,
Jeffrey Bean there is no room for error.
Connor Ratliff That is terrifying.
Jeffrey Bean There was one there was one moment where I got a little close and he and he kind of flinched and I I apologize to him. I said, I'm sorry, I'm on it, you know, they had a real mortician there to give me notes and and assist me in the action.
Connor Ratliff What were the thing? Do you remember any of the things that you learned from that mortician as far as like how how to approach the procedures you were doing?
Jeffrey Bean The thing that he said was you should be wearing gloves. And they said, we're not going to have him wear gloves, but he said you in reality, you would be wearing rubber gloves doing this because even though the boddy is dead, not everything on it is dead you know, so
Connor Ratliff Did you then take that as a character choice that Julius Hannelore was either a renegade or like as far as like, well, he's not wearing gloves because he's, you know, did you incorporate that?
Jeffrey Bean No (laughs)
(Orchestral music starts)
Sorry. It was my first time back on a set in 15 years. So I was I had my eyes were wide open.
Connor Ratliff Do you have any way of looking in your if you what happens if you go into your email and look up Blacklist?
Jeffrey Bean OK, here's an appointment from Monday, March 26.
(Orchestral music fades)
Connor Ratliff What time I had the same day I was 11:45 a.m.
Jeffrey Bean 11:30. (laughs)
Connor Ratliff We were probably in the room.
Jeffrey Bean Yeah, probably isn't that funny.
Connor Ratliff I never like talking in the waiting room.
Jeffrey Bean Mostly, I I wait until I'm on my way out the door and mostly I'll just say, good luck or something, you know, to people. But that's about it.
Connor Ratliff It's fascinating to think that you and I were in that little room for probably five minutes together.
(Flute music starts)
I waited there. I saw you come out. You probably said, Good luck to me. I was like, Thanks. I said, Good luck to everybody. A few minutes later. It's a fun thing to analyze, just because sometimes what you find out is you're like, Oh, they wanted someone who's like, completely got a different energy than me.
Jeffrey Bean That's the thing about it. And that's and that's really where you always sort of leave it in your head whether you go back and watch those other actors' work or not is, oh, it was, you know, there's a million reasons why they didn't pick you, you know?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Jeffrey Bean And that's how you console yourself, I guess. I always think, you know, I always say when I don't book something if, especially if it was something where I thought I did a good tape, you know?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Jeffrey Bean I always think I got to go back and watch and see who they cast to see what they wanted that I didn't provide, you know? And I've I've never done it. So kudos to you for doing it. I always mean to do it, but I just never have gotten around to it.
(Flute music fades)
(Blacklist opening sound)
Connor Ratliff Season six, episode three, my final in-person audition for The Blacklist. The role was Reggie Deeks, a biohacker, who has a microchip implanted in his forehead, who interacts with series regulars Amir Arison and Mozhan Marnò. It was yet another one day guest star. And despite my best efforts, I of course did not book the part. It went instead to an actor named Alex, hold on, it's B R E A U X, I'm terrible with the pronunciations.
Connor Ratliff I want to make sure I pronounce your last name. Is it
Alex Breaux It's it's like, what's up, bro.
Connor Ratliff Bro! Great. OK.
Alex Breaux Yeah, just bro.
(Bass music starts)
Connor Ratliff It's such a nice and sophisticated collection of letters that my instinct is to, like, try to say it in a sophisticated way.
Alex Breaux Yeah. No, no, no. I mean, for the role we're about to discuss. You know, this guy was like Spicoli as a hacker.
Connor Ratliff Yeah, this guy is a bro.
Alex Breaux as Reggie Deeks Buddy you made it. Come on in. We just ordered hot wings
Amir Arison as Aram Mojtabai Oh no way. This is Samar. Agent Navabi.
Alex Breaux as Reggie Deeks She's staring at my head I hate that.
Mozhan Marnò as Samar Navabi I'm sorry you have a
Alex Breaux as Reggie Deeks NFC chip in my forehead. Yeah. And two more in my hands.
Alex Breaux He was like an expert hacker, and I played him just based on his name, Reggie Deeks. I was like, Oh, this is a dude. This is a dude who has like six hands of online poker going at once he plays in like five like fantasy football leagues. And he also hacks in his free time. And so it feels like destiny. Like, I'm a bro from California, and I've played a lot of Stevie, a lot of Timmy's, a lot of Ray's, Eddie's, Bobby's. You know, Brody's like, you know, so Reggie was like, Oh, this is I think this is, they're looking for a bro.
(Bass music fades)
Connor Ratliff I'm looking at the the email, the the character description for Reggie Deeks.
Alex Breaux Oh, beautiful.
Connor Ratliff I think this is a good example of how weird it gets when you get one of these things with like a day's notice because it says Reggie Deeks, Male, 30 to 39. Please submit all ethnicities. An eccentric biohacker who has implanted microchips in his forehead and hands that control his electronics yet he does not like to be stared at. One day guest star.
Alex Breaux I just treated it like I was giving a tour of my frat house to the cops, and so I just kept it really casual, even though I was an expert. I mean, it was like, you know, totally unbroken. And then on the day I shot it
(Mysterious music starts)
They were like, Hey, by the way, like, we have all this like finger food for your hackers, like take-out food. So if you want to play with that, go ahead. And so most of the day was spent talking to Amir, who I worked with quite a bit on the scene. It was basically me doing this scene while eating spicy drumsticks, and the whole day me and him went back and forth, deciding whether it was too much if during the middle of this scene, I offered him some.
And then he wanted, he'd go to take a drumstick, but then look at his partner and his partner would shut him down like, Hey, that's not professional. You can't take the drumstick just with a look. (laughs) And so that was like the main self direction that we were we were giving ourselves and playing with it. It was like ugh, is it this is this is funny, but is it too much? Is it distracting? Anyway, it was also like, I don't eat spicy food, so my tongue was like burned off by the end of the day, eating spicy chicken nuggets. So it was, I remember that more than the actual scene.
(Mysterious music fades)
Connor Ratliff Mixing like eating with tech jargon is sort of two sort of like when you see a juggler with like knives and fire or, you know, things of different weight. Sort of.
Alex Breaux Yeah. Well, because if you're eating, there's a there's a rhythm to your breathing in the words that maintain the thought and make it clear. And so to layer on eating during that as well, you have to quickly kind of deduce, OK, when would I take a bite?
I have to remember to make it look like a big bite, but it can't be a big bite because if it's a big bite, I'm going to be chewing on that for the rest of the scene, which I don't want to be doing. And when I swallow, I don't want to be choking on it cause I'm about to swallow really fast because this scene I was really carrying all the dialogue.
(Calming music starts)
When you're a one day guest star, you're just an assassin. Like, I'm assuming no one's going to talk to me. I'm assuming I'm not going to get no direction and I'm just going in there like assuming the other actors have their own shit to worry about. So they're not necessarily going to be forthcoming, which is like, Hey, totally cool. I'm not going take anything personal.
Because when those shows are ready for you as a guest star, it feels like you get two takes and they move on. This is a machine. This is a well-run show before you got there, it will be a well-running show after you get there. So you need to be you want to be a pleasure to work with. And on Blacklist, I remember that was the first time the A.D. after I wrapped my one scene or two scenes, really, you know, he had like, Oh, that's a wrap for Reggie.
And like, you know, everyone claps for you and stuff for a moment and you're like, This is ridiculous, because I mean, it's so not necessary because, you know, it's like these people have much bigger fish to fry. This was, you know, a very small part of the day of the week, which comprises of the episode. So it was it was a very sweet.
Connor Ratliff I never returned to Chelsea, Piers to audition for The Blacklist ever again after six separate auditions for roles of various significance on the show in seasons four, five, and six. It looked as if maybe they had decided that it wasn't worth bringing me back in again.
I was not seen for any roles in season seven, which was cut short by the global coronavirus pandemic. When production resumed for season eight, I heard nothing until March 31st, 2021. More than two and a half years since my previous Blacklist audition, I received an email regarding a self tape appointment. An audition I would film in my apartment with my friend Shannon O'Neill on FaceTime on my iPad, reading the role of Raymond Reddington.
(Calming music fades)
Shannon O'Neill reading the role of Raymond Reddington I'm in the habit of only asking for something once then I become rather insistent.
Connor Ratliff reading the role of Max Frey I told you over the phone, I can't give you access to the database.
Connor Ratliff I read for the role of Max Frey, an easily blackmailed government employee with access to a database that Reddington needed. Max Frey owns a bird.
Connor Ratliff reading the role of Max Frey Hello, my blue girl. How are we?
Shannon O'Neill reading the role of Raymond Reddington Very chatty. Let's hope it runs in the family.
Connor Ratliff reading the role of Max Frey Reddington, what
Connor Ratliff It's not a great audition, I don't think, but I don't know if it was any better or worse than any of the previous six times I read for The Blacklist. But this time I booked the part.
(Blacklist opening sound)
Season eight, episode 18.
Connor Ratliff as Max Frey Hello, Mr. Beaks, your daddy is home. How are we?
James Spader as Raymond Reddington Very chatty. Let's hope it runs in the family.
Connor Ratliff as Max Frey Reddington, what do you?
Connor Ratliff It was a fun day when I filmed it. James Spader walked on set and was everything I wanted him to be, gracious and friendly, kind to me and patient when I was stumbling over one of the lines and at one point between takes, he winked at me, which was fun. But also he would occasionally make a firm suggestion about the way the scene was being shot in a tone of voice that I can only describe as very Spader-y.
James Spader as Raymond Reddington And with that, Percy Spencer invented the first microwave oven.
Connor Ratliff And this was, I should add, one of those classic Raymond Reddington threat scenes that I mentioned earlier with Jeffrey as the mortician.
James Spader as Raymond Reddington Max, this is important. Otherwise I nuke Mr. Beaks.
Connor Ratliff as Max Frey You wouldn't.
James Spader as Raymond Reddington I wonder will he taste like squab or dove?
Hisham Tawfiq as Dembe Zuma I think I saw some mango sauce in the cabinet.
Connor Ratliff But then it was over. Five years of auditions, one day of filming, three minutes of screen time. Now it's possible they could bring me back in a future episode.
(Concluding music starts)
The Blacklist is filled with recurring characters, but it has even more who appear one time, and that's it. My best guess is that we've seen the last of Max Frey. I hope I'm wrong about that. One thing I know I'm not wrong about is that they made the right call in casting Jimmie, Bruce, Aida, Neal, Jeffrey, and Alex before they got around to hiring me. But was I the best choice to play Max Frey? It's hard to say because I have no idea who else auditioned for it. If you lose a role, you can see who got it because they're right there on stage or on screen performing it. But if you get a role, there's no publicly available list of actors who almost got it. Before I reached out to all of these people. They had no idea who I was or that we had ever been in the running for the same job. Presumably, there are other people out there in the world who put themselves on tape to be Max Frey.
(Concluding music fades)
(Aimee Mann's "King of the Jailhouse" begins)
And if they're listening, sorry, you weren't Max Frey, but thanks for giving me the role. Sending you love and come find me on Cameo (air kiss) ciao bye.
Connor Ratliff Dead Eyes is a production of Headgum Studios. It was created by me, Connor Ratliff, it's written by me and it's mostly me that you hear talking, including now. Our producers are Harry Nelson and Mike Comite, and our associate producer is Jordan Allyn. Special thanks to my guests Jimmie Saito, Sue Jean Kim, Bruce Faulk, Aida Turturro, Neal Lerner, Jeffrey Bean, and Alex Breaux.
Also, thanks to Aimee Mann for letting us use this song that's playing in the background. It's called "King of the Jailhouse," and it's from her 2005 album The Forgotten Arm. If you like Dead Eyes, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate, review, follow us on Twitter @deadeyespodcast and talk about us nicely on social media. If you want to reach out, the email is deadeyespodcast@gmail.com.
Please tell your friends about this show, especially if you are friends with Tom Hanks, who has never been a guest star on The Blacklist, though he did once show up in an episode of The Love Boat, the hour long TV series, which ran for nine seasons on ABC. More recently, he appeared on an episode of the Yellowstone prequel series 1883 on Paramount+. But if I'm really looking for a Tom Hanks Blacklist connection, probably going to go with The Road to Perdition in which he plays a man tangled up with the criminal underworld who shoots people and wears a hat. Thanks for listening. Be smart. Stay safe.