The Road Home to You Podcast

“Coming Out: I Had An Affair”

Season 2; Episode 1

Full Transcript

Originally Aired September 4, 2018

Brandy: So, let's just jump into our episode, shall we?

Matt: Oh, dear. Alright.

Brandy: Let's do this.

Matt: Jumping in. Here we go.

Brandy: Jumping in. Feet first. Head first.

Matt: I don't like jumping in. It's too cold. You gotta ease into this.

Brandy: No, there's no easing in to this. Just rip that Band-Aid off. So today, what we're going to talk about, Matt, is we're going to share out story with our audience. We've referred to it on several occasions. We've made reference to recovery and problems that we've had in our marriage 8-ish years ago. So we've talked about it, sort of…

Matt: Around the edges. We've kind of talked around it but we wanted to wait for the right time and in talking about it we feel like we've gotten some initial episodes out of the way and maybe it's time to tell that part of our story.

Brandy: And over this summer minisode break that we've been doing we've talked about re-branding a little bit; kind of focusing a little bit differently in the message that we want to bring forward to our audience. What we talked about is wanting to bring grace and truth into the lives of our listeners.

We know that it's hard being a Christian.

Matt: Yeah, and we all have struggles of one sort or another.

Brandy: Yeah, and it's hard if you have questions about Christianity and you don't really understand what Christianity is or you look at Christians and you think that they're just freaky, weird, judgemental people or you grew up in the church and that's what you've experienced but now you're reconsidering. Maybe you want to get to know who God is instead of who you always thought He was.

Anyway, we want to bring a message of hope and grace and truth ot people. And in doing so, we recognize that we have a story in that.

Matt: And that's part of what drives us to do the podcast. We want to make sure that nobody is going through something alone, that you know that you can always find somebody either to listen or hear somebody else's story and know that the things that we're going through, you shouldn't go through alone. We were made to go through this life together and part of doing that is being , honest about what's going on.

Brandy: Yeah, that was something that was always, I think hard for me - and I've talked with my mom about this on several occasions - where I wish that people would have been more openly transparent with me. My parents were always good about, if I had a question or if I asked my parents, "Hey did you guys ever do drugs?" they would answer the question. But they weren't real forthcoming with information unless I asked.

Which might be a great way to go for some kids. For myself, I wanted to know people's stories and hear that they made bad choices but then they overcame those bad choices.

Matt: Or God brought healing after the bad choices.

Brandy: Right. I guess, in part, just to see that people are real. My parents are real, my grandparents are real, the church nursery lady is real. All these people have had real struggles and real issues. I just needed to have that part of it modeled to me.

I feel like sometimes at church we're really good at putting on this good, everything's-hunky-dory face but inside, we all know we're sinning with something. We've all got things that we're dealing with whether it's sin or struggles or burdens or whatever, we're dealing with stuff. And I think it's really important for us to be transparent and honest about that. We've talked about that before in the past.

Also, James 5:6 tells us that we're supposed to confess our sins to one another and to pray for each other in those sins. And though this is a topic that we've already processed through and worked through and recovered from, it's a topic we're well-aware is alive and well both in the world and in the church. There are people everywhere who struggle with this particular subject.

Matt: Yeah. Even if the people listening aren't directly struggling with it, I suspect they know somebody who is because it's that common.

Brandy: Yeah. So, what are we talking about?

Matt: Well, alright. About, what seven, eight years ago?

Brandy: Eight or so years.

Matt: Some news came out about our marriage and things that had been happening and it really shook up our world. Shook up our marriage, our family, everything.

Brandy: Right. So, what happened is.... We're talking about infidelity today.

Matt: Yes.

Brandy: What happened is, about 8-ish years ago, it was brought to Matt's attention that I had been having an affair.

Matt: Actually....

Brandy: It was brought to my attention....

Matt: Right. Some friends of the family had come over and I was sitting in the house we were living in at the time and Brandy went out to say hi and see what was going on and I was just casually looking out the window and I'm watching this conversation play out…

Brandy: I didn't know that.

Matt: Yeah. I saw your reaction and I've only seen you react that way one other time.

Brandy: That was when my dad died.

Matt: Yeah. And I knew from the way that you reacted that something very big and very wrong had just happened.

Brandy: Yeah. So, these friends had come over to let me know that my secret was out and I needed to confront you and let you that, otherwise they would, which...ugh..... I just have shivers thinking about this.

Honestly, you and I've talked about this a lot and I've shared this story with other people throughout the years and man, we've been through the work.

Matt: Yeah.

Brandy: There are times when I share it though, like right now, I just want to cry because the weight of it, the heaviness of it all, recognizing in that moment when you hear those words, "the cat is out of the bag," and understanding what that means and feeling your world just crash around you.

What had been happening is, for three years, I'd been living a lie. I had built this very perfectly compartmentalized web of lies and destruction. It was  house of cards and it was bound to crumble at some point. But I really,for some idiotic reason, had it in my head that…

Matt: It would be fine, it would stay secret and nobody would know and…

Brandy: Yeah. And it's weird, too, because there was a part of me that thought...Okay, this is how messed up and twisted my thinking is: If God didn't want me to be having this relationship, God would stop it. God would intercede; He would not allow us to see each other by one means or another; He would do something to prevent that from happening. And instead of preventing it from happening, it just kept happening. And by year three, I'm thinking well, I guess we're made in the shade.

And then it came crashing down.

What occurred to me eventually is God doesn't want us to sin. He's told us in His word that He doesn't want us to commit adultery. He shouldn't have to say that anymore than He's already said that in scripture five-thousand times. I shouldn't need to have a brick wall placed in front of me in order to not go through a dangerous place.

Matt: Right, yeah. God allows us choice for a reason. He gave us free will for a reason and He doesn't take that away. He still allows us to make bad choices.

Brandy: Yes, and I made three years worth of bad choices.

Matt: Right.

Brandy: So, I went inside and our kids were home and they were little and I think we had those friends stay with the kids for a little bit while you and I talked. I told you, straight out, "I've been having an affair." And I didn't give you a lot other than that.

Matt: Right. And you told me that amid a whole lot of tears and crying, so at first I didn't hear everything that you were saying, but I gathered enough to understand.

Brandy: Yeah...and then I did a really great thing to you. I left. Because I just didn't know...I couldn't process...I didn't give you time to process. You got to stay home with the kids and try to understand everything that I had just said, which was not much, meanwhile, I went up to a friend's house and cried my face off to her.

Matt: I'd kind of forgotten that you left for a while. It's a bit of a blur.

Brandy: Yeah, I'm sure. I left for a couple hours.

And then I got home and we talked a little bit that night. I don't know that we talked a ton. The details don't even so much matter, what matters is, within a few days, you did an amazing thing.

One of the things that I'd always wanted in our marriage, from the time when we first started dating, was I wanted you to be this super hyper-passionate, knight in shining armor, come sweep me off my feet, rescue me from whatever perils I might be faced with...That's what I wanted from you. And that's never what I got.

Matt: [Both laughing] What do you mean? No, I am not that guy.

Brandy: You're not that guy. So I, in my mind, expected you to say, "Brandy, I want you to stay. I will fight for you to stay. I'm going to go punch that guys face out." I expected big emotions and drama and all the things that you see in TV and movies and instead, you did the complete 180.


You turned to me and you said, "Brandy, I want to stay married. I love you and I want to stay married. If you want to stay married then let's for this together. But, if you want to leave, there's the door. I'm not chasing you down; I'm not forcing you to stay. Because I want to know that if you stay, it's because you want to be here, not because I've guilted you into it or made you feel like you have to stay.

At first, I was like, that's rude. I mean, how can you not just want to fight for me? And it kind of bugged me for about three seconds and then, all of a sudden it occurred to me, that's the closest thing I've ever seen to Jesus.

Because you extended an offer. You said, "I forgive you. I love you. I want a relationship with you." And you held your hand out to me and you said,"Here it is. If you want this, I'm with you 100% and I will fight beside you." And all I had to do was reach my hand out and take hold of yours and we would go through it side by side.

And I remember looking at you and saying, "I don't know yet."

You gave me this beautiful picture of grace and I didn't know if I wanted to take it.

Matt: Yeah, well there was a whole mix of things going on. But I have to say, it wasn't difficult for me to make my choice after seeing your reaction because, like I said, I've only seen you react that devastated, that literal gut-punch reaction, seeing you double over from the pain of the things that were going on, one other time and that's when you heard that your dad had just passed away.

Seeing that reaction again, I knew how broken you were and remorseful, that you understood the gravity of the situation. Seeing the woman I love go through that pain and brokenness and feeling the weight of all of that, I didn't have any trouble believing that if you decided to stay with me, that was real. I wasn't sure which direction you would go.

Over the years, through our marriage we've had numerous discussions about how being married is really hard and there are times when we think about it and it's easy to think, 'Man, life was so much simpler being single.' We've talked about that, about how difficult and how much work it takes to maintain a relationship and to keep it strong and to stay committed and focused. So this was your out, this was your chance to do something different. And I wasn't sure what you would choose, but I knew if you chose to stay with me, that was real.

Brandy: Yeah. It's weird, too, because I remember thinking, too, 'This is Matt's out.' Because there were so many times in our marriage where, especially early on, I'd ask you, "Why are you still with me? Why do you even love me? I'm not very loveable. Why are you here?" And I always doubted your love and I don't know what you could have done differently to make me doubt less. I don't think it had anything to do with you; I think it was all inside of me.

But for whatever reason, I doubted your love for me and what that moment showed me, was that your love runs so much deeper than I ever could have imagined. Because you had this perfect excuse, Biblical, sound excuse to say, "I'm done; I'm out. See ya never." And instead you were like, "Nope, I love you, I'm willing to fight for this marriage."

Matt: Well, like I said, I saw the woman I loved just devastated, but I also saw the woman that I love stand under the weight of all of that and face it. Face it with a lot of tears, but you met it head-on.

Brandy: Yeah. So, it took me a couple of days to come back to you and say, "I'm in this." Because what had happened was, you'd put one caveat on if we're going to stay married and make this work, we have got to get back to church. That was the one caveat you put on me. And I knew what that meant.  

That meant a complete shift in my life because I was as far from God as I could possibly be. Remember? I was the one who was justifying that God wanted me to be having an affair because He wasn't putting up a brick wall. I had such a skewed, perverted sense of who God was.

So I knew it was going to require a big, big shift. And I was the same girl that had always been able to put on that good Christian girl face. I knew how to be a good Christian, or at least look like a good Christian.

And I remember telling you, "That's fine. If we go back to church, whatever. But I am NOT going to be that good Christian girl anymore. I'm not going to fake it."

So we went to - we've talked about this before - we went to a great big church in another city in an effort to get lost in the crowd and that didn't happen.

Matt: I just have to tell this story. We can't just cruise past this one.

We walk into this big, ginormous church and we're coming from a small church background. We've been in some larger churches but we didn't stay there long, so we're not big-church people. Our kids are fairly young. I want to say Evan was 8 or 9.

Brandy: Yeah, he was going into 3rd Grade, Molly was going into 1st.

Matt: So Molly was pretty young. Six?

Brandy: Five or six, yeah.

Matt: For whatever reason, you left it up to Molly to decide where we were going to sit.

Brandy: Well, because Molly was really mad that we weren't going to be going to the church that we had been in and so to appease her, I was like, "Fine, Molly, you get to choose where we're going to sit."

In my mind I'm thinking, let's sit in the back because I wanted to just go in and leave the minute the sermon was done. I did not want to stick around and chat; I did not want to engage with anybody. I was terrified about being in the presence of God and His people.  

All I knew was that I had that big, giant letter A, for adultery, emblazoned on my chest and I was convinced, in my heart of hearts, that everybody looked at me and could tell, she has been having an affair; she is an adultress. I felt that judgement all the time. It wasn't there, I'm sure, but I felt it.

Matt: Yeah. So, we walk in and it's up to Molly to find us a seat. And where does she go? Does she go to the back? Oh, no. Not our Molly. She leads us by the hand. Front and center.

Brandy: Front and center.

Matt: Maybe one pew back.

Brandy: No, she started off literally, in the front row in the center.

Matt: Did she really?

Brandy: Yes. I was like, "We are NOT sitting in the front row. We have got to move to a different place." And she was like, "Fine." And she moved us one row back and said, "This is it. We're not moving anymore."

So we sat in that second row, center, for two years, however long we were at that church. That's where we sat. That became our seat.

That very first Sunday when she led us to that spot, I remember during the worship time, the worship pastor, whose name I don't even remember anymore, literally, I swear he was looking straight at me the whole entire time. Just singing God's grace to me and over me and it just was washing over and I could not do anything but weep.

I think for months, both you and I just sat there we would just hold hands and cry. We sang a little bit, too, but there was a lot of crying that happened.

Matt: Yeah, there were a lot of tears. It was a lot of hard work; a lot of discussion - hard things to talk about. It was a lot of work, but it was also just amazing. It was amazing to see the healing that God brought to our relationship in so short a time.

Brandy: Yeah, so what had happened is, within a very short amount of time being there, I got plugged into the recovery work that I've talked about in previous episodes, which I'll link to in our show notes. I went through anger management and I went through some addiction stuff. I went through codependency and The Genesis Process. I learned about family structures, I learned about grief.

Because my point that I wanted to make during recovery classes was, I don't want to just put a Band-Aid on this problem of infidelity. I want to know why I walked into an affair to begin with; why that was even opened up to me in my mind. Because that's where the cancer is and I want to cure that cancer. Unless we do, I know there's a chance that I could do the same thing again.

Matt: Right.

Brandy: Because you always here that, "Once a cheater, always a cheater." I hate that phrase so hard.

Matt: Oh, yeah.

Brandy: Because it doesn't have to be true. It might be true by the world's standards, but with God and with repentance and with redemption and grace and God's guidance, you do not have to stay in your sin. You do not have to repeat your sin. You can be made into a new creation like scripture says.

Matt: Absolutely. Yeah, and our relationship is living proof of that.

Brandy: Yeah. So we spent a lot of time talking, staying up til three o'clock in the morning.

Matt: Oh, yeah. A lot of late night discussions. A lot of walks. The kids would go off to school - I was subbing at the time, I was a substitute teacher - so some days I would get work and some days I wouldn't. On the days that I didn't, we would go to a nearby neighborhood and walk and talk and work things out. You would talk about the things that you had been learning in the classes you were taking.

By the way, it was also incredible just to see God's hand at work in working out the classes that you were taking. It was like He had planned out a curriculum for you.

Brandy: Yeah, very much so.

Matt: But the way those classes come about is not a foregone conclusion ; it's not planned out a year in advance.

Brandy: Actually, they do plan out, in the fall we're going to do this, in the winter we're going to do this and then spring we'll do this. They did do that for the Women's Ministry studies. They had a year planned out. But, it just happened to be the year that it was all talking about "When Godly People Do Ungodly Things,"and the life and times of David who, oh by the way was an adulterer and a murderer. At least I hadn't killed anyone!

Because there've been other times and seasons at that church where it's been discovering the names of God and the characteristics of God, which is wonderful and beautiful and I highly encourage that, but the way this all came about was this was exactly prepared for me.

Matt: Right. I guess what I meant was the way all of those classes worked together because they would have a Bible study track and then they'd have a recovery track and they all just happened to fit together just perfectly.

Brandy: Yeah, they really did. And I had some really good, godly women come alongside me that were older, that just loved me through it. That was such a kindness and such a balm because I was really expecting a lot of judgement from the older women and I was expecting a lot of immaturity from the younger women.

What I ended up getting - it was so weird - because I remember, I had no problem sharing my story with people from the get-go because what I wanted to do was explain to people that you can be a Christian and you can be married to a Christian and in, what you presume to be a Christian marriage, and still have an affair.

Matt: Right.

Brandy: And you need to guard your heart against that. I felt like I wanted to be a warning light to people; if this can happen to me, it can happen to you, too.

Matt: Well, that's part of why God allows us to go through things like that, so that 1) we can help other people that have been through that and 2) so that we can warn people that haven't been gone through it, "Hey, don't go down this road. We tried it, it's bad."

Brandy: It's a bad road; the county does NOT pave here.

It was interesting because what ended up happening was, the older women came alongside me and were like, "Girl, we hear you. Marriage is hard. We maybe haven't had an affair, but we've had struggles in our marriages and we've overcome things." It was the younger women that were just a few, maybe up to five years into their marriage and they're having babies and all of that and they shunned me.

Matt: Wow…

Brandy: I literally went from being all friendly and chatty with them one week and then sharing my story with the whole group to literally they would walk a wide berth around me. And I was like, "Okay, adultery is not contagious. I mean, it can happen to you, but if you rub elbows with me it doesn't mean that you've caught adultery. My letter A is mine, not yours. Don't worry, it's not a rash.

It was so weird. I was like, 'Apparently truth is just a little too hard for some of these girls.' And it scares me because I think if they're not willing to hear truth…

Matt: And face it...face their own.... Because it holds up a mirror. You have to look real hard at yourself and go, 'Where are some of those elements in my life?' And they're there, it just all depend on how we respond to them. But yeah, people don't always want to look in that mirror.

Brandy: No. And we do the same thing when we look at somebody who's killed their spouse or their neighbor.

Matt: Yeah, you have to ask, "Could that be me?"

Brandy: Right. We're all capable of the deepest depths of depravity. We're all capable of that because we all have sin in our heart and it's only by God's grace that we don't go down those paths. So I think it's really important to be aware of the fact that, there but the grace of God, go I.  And how do you prevent that? Which we'll talk about next week; that's going to be our conversation for the next episode.

But, Good Lord, we spent, I think it was about month 3 that we finally went in to see a counselor. Our old church had given us some counselling sessions, had gifted us 6 sessions with a counselor in town and we went to go see him. By the time we got there, I remember our first time sitting in his office, and he was like, "What are you guys here for?"

And we were like, "Marriage counselling; I had an affair." But we were sitting there holding hands and he was like, "Okay, you guys are literally the first couple that's ever come into my office with infidelity to talk about and you are 'together.' You're not mad at each other, you're not accusatory with each other; you guys are already on the path to recovery."

And we were. We were well onto the path of recovery by the time we got there.

Matt: Hadn't you...I thought you'd already been to him a couple of times individually.

Brandy: For other things, years prior to.

Matt: Oh, okay.

Brandy: But it was so interesting because our recovery was me doing a lot of spiritual work; it was the key component. One hundred percent, without God, we would not be married.

Matt: No. Not a chance.

Brandy: Because I needed a change of heart. I needed to be given a new start. And I needed to find my identity and it couldn't be found in you. And it couldn't be found in my sexuality and it couldn't be found in the arms of someone else or the validation of anybody. It had to come from God.

As I started to understand my identity in God and understand God's holiness and God's call for my life and God's grace and redemption, healing just began to flow. And it was fairly immediate. And I think it really all started with you saying, "I'm here if you want to stay but there's the door if you want to go."

Because that picture of Jesus for me was so profound. I don't know how you even had the wisdom to do that.

Matt: I think to a certain extent it was a personal preference of mine. I've never been one of those people that wanted to have to fight for affection. Either somebody recognizes something that they like in me and they want to hang out with me or they don't. But I'm not going to go out of my way to try to convince somebody that they like me and want to hang out with me.

So to a certain extent that also translated into our relationship. A relationship where I have to convince you to love me is, ultimately, not going to be satisfying.

Brandy: Yeah. So, let's talk about where we are now. We're like 8 years or so out of this.

Matt: Right.

Brandy: And why do you love me? How are you even still married to me? I'm kidding. Let's not have that conversation again, that was a tiresome conversation.

So, our kids found out about the affair....well, Evan found out about it kind of right away, I think.

Matt: That could be; I don't know. I know when we first talked to them, do you talk to your kids about that? We kept it really vague and we didn't supply any details, of course.

Brandy: And the reason we had to tell them, because I don't think you always have to tell your kids when there's a marital conflict like this, but the fact is, it happened with somebody that they knew and so it was going to directly impact their lives and their social world. So they needed to understand that there was a shift happening in…

Matt: In the social world they inhabited.

Brandy: Yeah. But we didn't tell them straight out until pretty recently, but they knew.

Matt: And part of it is because we knew this episode was looming on the horizon and if we're going to put it out there in a very public way, we absolutely had to make sure that everything was cleared up with family before we started talking about it.

Brandy: And again, that was one of those things that I remember being so worried about sitting down and talking to them about because I thought, 'Good Lord. Everything's going to change. They're never going to look at me the same.'

And they were both like, "Okay. Yeah, we know."

And I was like, "Yeah, but do you understand? Do you really know what I'm talking about?"

And I remember Molly just said, "Okay, but you're still my mom and I love you. And that's not who you are anymore. You're not doing it now."

Matt: Yeah and she talked about how she could see the changes in our relationship and she could see what God had done in our lives and she knew where we were at now. She wasn't overly concerned by it.

Brandy: Yeah, and again it was that picture of grace. How can this kid be so forgiving? If that would have been me and I would have heard my mom say that when I was 14, 15 years old, I would have probably gone off on her. And I'm so grateful that our kids were able to see for years that our marriage has just grown stronger and that you and I are a team and that we are friends. We are affectionate with each other and we enjoy each other. We're not putting on an act to appease them or make them comfortable.

Matt: Yeah, it's not a forced thing that we go through;this is who we are. We enjoy spending time together. We genuinely want to spend every minute of our day together if we could manage it.

Brandy: Yeah. Well, most days. There's some days that…

Matt: We need a little space…

Brandy: ...I could stand being away from you, but that's only when you're playing your game.


Matt: But when you think about, 'I want to go do this fun thing; who would I want to go do a fun thing with?' It's always you. You're always my first choice of who do I want to spend time with? It's always my favoritist. It's always going to be Brandy.

Brandy: I'm your plus 1.

Matt: Always. You're my perpetual plus one.

Brandy: Aww, PP1. Perpetual plus one; that works.

Matt: I don't know....

Brandy: Oh, that doesn't work! That sounds terrible! Okay, we won't do that., now we're good.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Brandy: And I would say that it continues to be a work in progress, though. I don't struggle with my eyes wandering into other pastures anymore; I'm very guarded about that.

But what I do sometimes struggle with are the frustrations that maybe led up to my eyes wandering to other pastures. And I have to keep those in check. Because I know those are issues with me and not you. Or if they're issues with you then I need to confront you about them and say, "Hey, Matt, there's this thing I'm feeling. Can we talk about it?"

But by and large, it's issues that are screwed up in my own thinking. So, I've got to do some heart-work and that's between me and God. When I do that heart-work then I'm at a place again where I can see Matt for who he is and I love him.

Matt: I really think, going through all of that hard recovery work and having those hard discussions, we really tried to get to the core of who we were and why we were together. That's part of what made us stronger, made our relationship better.

Brandy: One of the things we did, and I think this was one of the best things we did, was we sat down one night and talked about our earliest hurts that we could remember. And we talked about "who were you in your earliest memories? what were the things you were dealing with and struggling with and what were your hopes and dreams?"

And suddenly, what that did, was it took this man-sized image of you and it brought you to this place of about 4 or 5 years old. And I could see, because I've got pictures of you at that age, I could see that little boy in those pictures and I could look into the eyes of those photographs and see your hurt and see your fear and see your hopes and see your heart.

And what it did, is it's given me the ability now, when I look at you today, I can see glimpses of that little boy still there. And I'm very aware of the fact that as much as you are a grown man and you've got responsibility and discipline and all those things, at the core, there's still that little 4-year old boy, who still has some of those same insecurities and some of those same hopes and dreams.

If I was an adult looking at that little boy, I would want to give him love and encouragement and hug him and tell him how awesome and amazing he is. So, I want to give that to you as an adult. Because you're still that little boy a little bit.

Matt: Yeah, and the same was true for me as well. It was kind of interesting because it was like little Matt met little Brandy and we found out that we really liked each other. And it was fantastic to recognize that some of our hurts were exactly the same even though we would respond in a different way, it was coming from a similar place.

Just recognizing, at our core, at the core of who we were and what our relationship was all about we were, not just a little bit compatible, but in some ways we were exactly the same.

Before it had always been we recognized that there was something that drew us to each other, but I think in the midst of those hard discussions we recognized that at our core, we're very similar.

Brandy: Yeah, it was a little like looking into a mirror as little kids.

We decided we would have gotten along really well as a little kids.

Matt: Yeah, absolutely.

Brandy: And we probably would have hated each other. I probably would have bullied you a little bit.

Matt: Yeah, you probably would.

Brandy: I was a very bossy child. I'm still a bossy person. I'm working on it. Not doing great - pray for me.

Matt: But, I'm pretty easy going most of the time so I'm willing to go along cause it doesn't matter to me.

Brandy: So, in our next episode let's talk about what some of our pitfalls were, things that maybe set us up for having problems. Because my infidelity was not our only issue.

Matt: Right and things like that don't just happen out of nowhere and it's not a one-sided issue. There were choices that we made, choices that I made that set us up for that.

Brandy: And yet, I will say, I guess just as a warning, when the affair began, I was caught 100% by surprise. It was not something I was seeking; it wasn't even on my radar. It presented itself as a possibility and I went, "Oh, there's an open window, I'll just blast through it and make a door."

But literally, it all happened so quickly, and yet, like you said, there were choices that led up to it that enable to go through that window.

So we want to talk about what you can do to prevent those windows from opening.

Matt: And not as a fool-proof method to prevent something like this happening in your marriage because that's certainly not the case and we would never put it out there as such.

Brandy: But I think that we've learned a lot in terms of what are some things that are common pitfalls that people fall into that end up having affairs or end up walking down some of those darker paths. There's definitely some commonality there.

We've said this before too but, adultery is just as common in the church as it is outside of the church. So if you think, for a minute that it's not happening in your church, you're foolish. Because it might not be happening right this second, but I guarantee you it's a breath away.

Matt: Yeah, you can't believe the church mask.

Brandy: Yeah, and we're complete idiots if we think it can't happen to us.

Matt: Thinking it can't happen to you, to a certain extent, puts blinders on that make it more likely that it could happen to you.

Brandy: Yeah, because then you can't see the little red flags that are going off.

If you are somebody who either had an affair or is currently walking through this healing process or if you're kind of on the fence and there's somebody in your life that you're thinking looks like a pretty nice place to find some rest and comfort, please get in touch with us.

We would love to walk alongside you, to encourage you, to challenge you, to pray for you and bless you with hope. If nothing else, I think that's what our story provides, is a real clear picture of hope and redemption.

Like I said, without God, we would not be where we are. And I know that there are non-Christian marriage that do survive affairs, but I don't know that they thrive so much and we certainly wouldn't have.

Hope and redemption is available and grace is ready to rain down in your face.

So, let us know. You can get in touch with us in email at

This is obviously a delicate subject, something that not everybody wants to air their dirty laundry about. If you write to us because you want some counsel or wisdom, it is private. This is between us and you. That's all. And God. We're not going to share this information with anyone unless you give us explicit permission to do so. So, don't even worry about that. But please do get in touch because we really do want to hear from you.

Also, if you would like to see our show notes where I will link all the recovery resources that helped me in my path as well as episodes that talk about some of the things that we talked about in a little greater detail and our transcript.

You can find our show notes at We're on Facebook, we're on Instagram, we're on Pinterest. Quite exciting. I don't know how Pinterest works; I'm still trying to figure it out, but darnit, I'm doing it!

If you would like to support us, because it does cost money to run this show every single month. Production costs are there and we could definitely benefit from having a little bit of support from you, our wonderful, magnificent listeners whom we love so much. You can go to There you get rewards if you decided you want to be a supporter of us.

Matt: And who doesn't love rewards?

Brandy: Rewards are great!

We've got stuff coming out soon hopefully. We're kind of re-vamping some things so bear with us as we're under construction and hopefully we've got some good things coming your way. Is there anything else?

Matt: No, I think you've pretty well wrapped it up there.

Brandy:'s been a lot of talking.

Matt: It has. It's a big subject.

Brandy: Alright. So, until next time, grace and peace and love to you all.