Note: Dead Eyes transcripts have been generated with automated software and may contain errors. We advise you to listen to episode audio before quoting in print.
Dead Eyes, Episode 14 - “Thinking About Don’t Think Twice Again”
Mike Birbiglia So as a podcast or what is your goal? Do you want an answer?
[Upbeat piano jazz tune starts]
Or do you want an exploration?
Connor Ratliff I wanted to talk to some of the people who've actually like, hired me for things...
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs] Sure.
Connor Ratliff And, and get a sense of what you were thinking, you know? And get a sense of—
Mike Birbiglia Of why. Yeah, yeah.
Connor Ratliff And, and I think for you...[fades]
Connor Ratliff In 2016, my friend, comedian Mike Birbiglia, wrote and directed a feature-length film about longform improv comedy called Don't Think Twice.
I have a small role in the film, written specifically for me to play. The character’s named “Connor," and he's an improv student. And it was the first time that somebody had cast me to be in a proper theatrically released movie.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff It was a thing that I could tell people, "Hey, this is playing at a theater in your town." Or, or like, even when the trailer came out
Mike Birbiglia And you're in the trailer. Yeah!
Gillian Jacobs as Samantha We pick one person, you say the first thing about them that comes to your mind—Connor. Go!
Gary Richardson as Gary You're fat.
Jo Firestone as Jo You're dangerous.
Josh Rabinowitz as Josh You're a little slow.
Connor Ratliff Uh, this game hurts my feelings!
Mike Birbiglia I've known you for a long time, and I've known that story about how you were sort of cast and then uncast from that show and how—
Connor Ratliff Did I tell you that? Did I tell you that story?
Mike Birbiglia Oh yeah. Yeah. Yeah, we told—we talked over the dinners.
Connor Ratliff Ok. [Laughs]
Mike Birbiglia You had told that story, I think, multiple times, not realizing you had told it before.
Connor Ratliff Oh...
Mike Birbiglia And I will say in, in Tom's defense, that I've been on the acting side and I've been on the casting side as the director and the things that casting comes down to has so little to do, often, with the actors themselves.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Mike Birbiglia It literally is like, "Will this person look good in the frame with this other person who we already cast?" You know what I mean?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Mike Birbiglia I'm not even exaggerating. Like, literally as a director, you're making a frame in your head and you're going like, "No...that might look odd, they don't look of the same universe. They don't look of the same, whatever, same improv group, whatever the thing is."
[Theme starts]
And what I've learned about being an actor from being a director is that, uh, you know, we all take everything personally, but really you can't take it personally because it has nothing to do with you.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Mike Birbiglia Even, even you being cast in the movie has nothing to do with you.
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
Mike Birbiglia So, so being uncast actually really has nothing to do with you. I think neither of them have anything to do with you. So, so that's all I have to say about that.
Voice of God This is Dead Eyes, a podcast about one actor's quest to find out why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers.
Connor Ratliff My name is Connor Ratliff. I'm an actor and comedian 20 years ago, I was fired by Tom Hanks. The reason, I was told at the time: he looked at my audition tape and thought I had "dead eyes."
Mike Birbiglia And also life is like a box of chocolates. You never know what you're going to get.
Connor Ratliff You know what? It's the first time I made that connection that I was warned like, it's it's right there in Gump.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And I didn't, I didn't listen.
Connor Ratliff And that's the short version.
[Theme ends]
[Fast jazz piano piece starts]
I first met Mike in February of 2014. I got an email and the subject line said, "Hey, it's Mike Birbiglia." It sort of sounded like something someone would say if they were a fan of his work and they saw him walking down the street, "Hey, it's Mike Birbiglia!" And I was a fan of his work. So that's kind of how I felt getting the email. "Hey, it's an email from Mike Birbiglia!"
He was asking me if I would want to improvise with him at UCB, a show he was doing on a semi-regular basis called Mike Birbiglia's Dream. And I was surprised and flattered because a lot of the people he would get to do that show were famous people.
[Jazz tune ends]
Mike Birbiglia We used to have amazing, we used to have amazing lineups on those shows. Like, sometimes it would be Ellie Kemper, or it'd be Zach Woods, Aidy Bryant, Vanessa Bayer. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And I remember thinking, I'm the only one here that no one will like give an extra amount of volume to when I come out.
Mike Birbiglia Sure.
Connor Ratliff And thankfully you, you, you never did—everyone just came out at once. You never did that thing where—
Mike Birbiglia Yes!
Connor Ratliff —where it was like, one person comes out and gets a response.
Mike Birbiglia There was no applause-o-meter.
Connor Ratliff Yeah, so I never had to deal with that. But the thing that excited me about it was rather than it making me nervous, I actually thought most of this audience won't be thrilled to see me, but some of them will be intrigued by me because they'll think, Why are there eight people on stage, and they didn't just have seven? Like, Why did they ask him if they have all of these people?
Mike Birbiglia My suspicion, whenever someone is like, part of like, a really star-studded crew, but they're not well-known is, is like, that there's some kind of drug involvement. Like, there's got to be like, he brought weed or something. There is some sense of like, "Okay. Either that guy is like secretly amazing, or he's a drug dealer."
Connor Ratliff Right. "That guy's dad owns the building."
[Fast jazz piano starts]
Connor Ratliff The title for the movie Don't Think Twice is a double reference, both to the Bob Dylan song, "Don't Think Twice, It's Alright” and the Upright Citizens Brigade slogan-slash-mantra, "Don't think." Meaning that, in improv, you want to try to go with your instincts, listen and react rather than trying to think too hard about what you can do that will be funny.
But Mike thought a lot about what he wanted his movie to be. He was already thinking about it when he first asked me to start being a part of his improv shows. Within a few months, I was not only a regular part of Mike Birbiglia's Dream at UCB, he was also asking me to come by his house to participate in readings of early drafts of his new screenplay with some other trusted collaborators.
[Music fades]
Mike Birbiglia Yeah we would get pizza from like Lucali or Luzzo, or like, one of these great Brooklyn spots and we'd get tons of it. And that way, if the, if the script reading didn't go well, people were like, "Well, the pizza was really good."
Connor Ratliff I almost couldn't conceptualize that it was going to—that this was going to become a real movie.
Mike Birbiglia Sure.
Connor Ratliff Because it just was like, nice people, most of whom I knew in a house and there's pizza.
Mike Birbiglia Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And we're reading these scripts
Mike Birbiglia Every now and then there's Frank Oz.
Connor Ratliff Oh god. I have to, I have to confess something to you, Mike, which is that the night that Frank Oz was there, I was not there when introductions were made.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
[Vaudevillian jazz tune starts]
Connor Ratliff You know, I'm an obsessive Muppets fan, but I hadn't seen a photograph of Frank Oz in a while. And so I just thought there was this guy named Frank that you knew who was really funny.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs] And Frank Oz, for people who don't know, is Yoda—
Connor Ratliff He's Fozzie Bear. He's Miss Piggy. He's Cookie Monster. I mean—
Mike Birbiglia Yeah. I mean, he's a legend, he's a legend.
Connor Ratliff But that night he was just a guy named Frank that I assumed you knew from someplace. And every time he read a character, I thought, dang, that guy's funny.
[Music fades]
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And then I talked to you the next day and you said, "Wasn't it great to meet Frank?"
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I said, "Yeah. Yeah, Mike."
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I was like, "Yeah! Frank's, Frank's, Frank's really funny. And then you kept talking about it, and I thought, Man, Mike keeps going on about this guy, Frank.
And then you said something—
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff You made a reference to something that suddenly my brain was like, Connor. He's talking about Frank Oz. Why? Why is he talking about Frank Oz? We were just talking about his friend Frank. And then I realized—and I was too embarrassed to admit to you that I didn't know—
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff —that I'd spent the evening like, sitting across from Frank Oz who was just, you know, unwinding on a sofa, nailing it every time a small part came along.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And at no point—You know, I mean, because he didn't do a part—he didn't do them in a Miss Piggy voice or a Grover voice, or something, you know, like...
Mike Birbiglia No, no. That would be inappropriate. That'd be inappropriate.
Connor Ratliff I mean, it's kind of beautiful when I think back to it because I didn't do any of the embarrassing things that I might've done otherwise, you know.
A similar thing happened with Ira actually, which was, I'd never met Ira before.
[Marimba piece starts]
Mike Birbiglia Ira Glass, who produced the movie.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Mike Birbiglia I'm trying to do some exposition for your, for your listeners Connor. Because I don't know if people just know Ira.
Connor Ratliff [Laughs] I can always do a drop-in where I explain...
Mike Birbiglia Sure, sure. [Fades]
Connor Ratliff Ira Glass isn't just a producer of Don't Think Twice. He's also the creator and host of This American Life, the public radio program where I probably first heard the name "Mike Birbiglia." Ira had Executive Produced Mike's previous movie Sleepwalk With Me.
So when I first saw him at one of the Don't Think Twice readings, I thought, Oh, he's probably going to be a producer on this movie, too. I think that's when I realized that this wasn't just a casual script-reading at my friend Mike's house. This was really going to become a movie, and I might even get to be in it.
And that's when I got a little anxious because suddenly being in a room with Ira Glass...Well, the last time I had had a feeling like this was when I learned that Tom Hanks was going to be directing my episode of Band of Brothers. So I had a little bit of dread at the idea of a beloved public figure entering the picture based on how well that turned out last time.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff It was almost comedically set up that Ira was making his introductions, and he was about to—I was like, opening my mouth to be like, "Hi, I'm—" Like, I was reaching my hand out and you came into the room like, "Okay guys, let's start the reading!"
[Fast jazzy guitar tune starts]
And I remember thinking, oh no. Oh, I—well, now I don't know how to—and then I never got formally introduced. I missed my chance.
Connor Ratliff So then we do the reading and when it's all over, people are just chatting and have sort of broken off into smaller casual groupings.
And I had a thought about one part of the script. Mike had introduced a subplot where a kind of shady producer pulls this long con on a group of improvisors. He convinces them to invest in doing their show at a new venue. And then he skips town with their money.
Mike Birbiglia Like a Spanish Prisoner kind of thing, yeah.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. They literally like, go back to his office and it's turned into like, a laundromat.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs] Yes, indeed. Indeed.
Connor Ratliff It was a fun sequence, but it was more like something out of a David Mamet movie than the rest of what Mike was writing about. And my one little suggestion to Mike was that, in my experience, a more likely scenario was that these improvisers wouldn't get scammed; they would lose their money because not enough people came to see their show at the new venue.
So I'm articulating this idea sort of confidently when, out of the corner of my eye, I noticed that Ira Glass is approaching.
[Music ends]
Connor Ratliff I couldn't stop what I was saying.
Mike Birbiglia Yeah, yeah.
Connor Ratliff I, I felt the need like, Oh, I shouldn't—I don't want to pitch this in front of Ira glass. Like this is nerve wracking to pitch a note—
Mike Birbiglia Yeah, I get that, he's intimidating.
Connor Ratliff And then Ira said—he listened very thoughtfully and he said, "Well, that's really a whole other story though. Isn't it?"
Mike Birbiglia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And I remember thinking like, Oh, I humiliated myself in front of Ira Glass. And then, and then the next time I met him was when he was producing on the movie and, and he came over and was really nice. And I remember thinking like, Oh, maybe he doesn't remember that I'm that guy that like, pitched that thing, pitched that idea.
[Fast jazz tune starts]
Mike Birbiglia And then the idea ended up being in the movie, I think, I mean, I think that's what it ended up being.
Connor Ratliff So that note, probably the only suggestion I gave during the entire script development process, ended up leading to the filming of a scene where the improv team we've been following does a disastrous show at a fancy venue with almost no one in attendance. My friend, Tami Sagher, who in real life is a very successful writer and actor and comedian and one of the best improvisers in the world ended up on stage wearing a tuxedo, performing some of the worst improv I have ever seen on purpose. My friend Chris Gethard was also on stage, also one of the best, and a legendary teacher of improv. And because of me, they were having to be terrible at it for the camera. And I got to see it all happen because my character, Connor, the improv student was one of the few people watching the show.
[Music fades]
Tami Sagher Oh, that's right. You guys were in the audience.
Connor Ratliff Yeah, it's like their students showed up.
Tami Sagher Oh yeah.
Connor Ratliff This is Tami.
Tami Sagher It was really not fun to do a bad show, even though it's fake and you're trying to be bad. There's something about it that still feels like a bummer.
Connor Ratliff And if you watch the movie, the audience doesn't see very much of the bad improv show. And what I learned later was that that section of the movie that I was, you know, directly or indirectly, you know, had some small responsibility in shifting it towards that particular beat in the story, it was the part of the movie that tested the most poorly with audiences.
Tami Sagher [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Like they had to cut that section down. Nobody wanted to watch a sequence in a movie where a bunch of talented people failed at being, uh, improvisers in their own show in the theater, like it, it—both the artistic and the financial failure was too depressing for audiences to endure.
Tami Sagher No, nobody wants to see bad improv, but the point of it—like, I remember, yeah, watching that movie and being like, "Oh, he accomplished that in like, 15 seconds with like, I think there's music. I don't even think we hear a word we're saying." I was like, "Oh, well done."
[Plodding guitar strumming starts]
Connor Ratliff I don't think you hear any, you don't hear any of the improv, but it's clear from the body language of you guys in tuxedos that this show is not good.
Tami Sagher Yeah! It's failure. No, the whole story was that you guys were the only ones who came. And we're flailing.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. And we were not laughing.
Connor Ratliff If the experience of filming that scene was a low point for Tami, the rest of the shoot more-than made up for it, perhaps most of all in a scene where her character meets Ben Stiller playing himself.
Tami Sagher Oh, that was the best.
Connor Ratliff Your character was very starstruck and was a huge fan. And you were, I think on-set, dropping deep cut references.
[Music fades]
Tami Sagher I made him laugh, which was the best. Gethard referenced Heavyweights, which also made him laugh. And then I referenced him and Janeane Garofalo dating, and why didn't that work out.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. And it was really funny because you guys were in a booth in this bar and the improv students, we were all over by the bar and it was fun watching you, uh, figure out how you wanted to play like the different things you were throwing at Ben Stiller, uh, was very entertaining.
But we didn't interact in any of these scenes. We were in two separate, uh, it was like varsity and JV in terms of the, the improv dynamic in the world of the, of the movie.
Tami Sagher [Laughs] But then it was like, varsity and JV, and then it was like an NFL superstar, because Ben Stiller was there.
Connor Ratliff You were excited as actors to be interacting with Ben Stiller in the same way that your characters were excited to be interacting.
Tami Sagher Well, and also he was on a really tight schedule. So he's doing this huge favor. He's a fan of Birbiglia's, and he filmed a whole other scene. So we filmed like, us yelling those questions and they filmed him and then she was going to go, cause it's like, that's his coverage. And he stuck around for me and Gethard to do our coverage was just like, such a cool...
Connor Ratliff Aw, that's nice.
Tami Sagher He was just the coolest. Yes, we were a hundred—that was, it's so fun when you get to just be a heightened version of yourself.
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Tami Sagher When you get to say the thing that you're too scared to say.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. You actually were able to say things that if you were just—if you weren't playing those characters, you would have been too embarrassed to show what a big fan you were.
[Laid back jazz guitar piece starts]
Tami Sagher The question about them dating in the nineties was like, what I wanted to know in the nineties, do you know what I mean? So it's also like, yeah.
Connor Ratliff Yeah [laughs]
Tami Sagher It was getting in touch with that.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff There was another Don't Think Twice related experience that I don't even know whether you're aware of it, which was, after the movie was done I got a call from, uh, someone at Comedy Central who was working on the show At Midnight. And they were saying like, "We're doing an episode in two weeks, or next week that is going to be a Don't Think Twice related episode," and they couldn't get a third person for it.
Tami Sagher [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And they had gotten to the point where they were desperate enough that they had [laughs] they had contacted me as someone who has three lines in the film and they're like, "We just need somebody so the episode is, is coherently a Don't Think Twice episode."
And it happened to be that it was taping on the one day off I had during the week because I had one—
Tami Sagher Oh no...
Connor Ratliff I had that Thursday off. But they said, "We can't afford to fly you out. You'd have to pay your own airfare," which would have meant I would have lost hundreds of dollars doing this.
Tami Sagher Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And I said, "I'd love to go on a TV show and, you know, tell jokes and be funny," and I'd never done anything like that before. I just thought, I can't lose money going to do At Midnight on my day—it was already going to be exhausting. It was going to be like taking a red eye and flying back or whatever. So I said, "No, I can't do it."
And then Mike called me up and he was like, "Are you sure you're not—"
And I was like, "Oh no, Mike, they can't afford to fly me out. And I can't, I can't do it."
And then Mike was like, "Well, let me see what I can do. I might be able to fly you out." Because he was like, wanting to make a good episode.
And I was like, "All right, just let me know."
And then the next thing I saw was, I think on that Monday, where they were announcing "Here's who's going to be on it this week." And that's, that's how I knew that I wasn't, uh, flying out to do it was because I saw that—
Tami Sagher Wait—I was that third person!
[Tumultuous, suspenseful guitar jazz piece starts]
Why are you telling me this story?!
Connor Ratliff Okay, I realize how this sounds. Somehow, in my telling of this story, I managed to make it newly awkward for Tami, which was not my intention. My understanding of what happened is that she was working on the HBO show Girls at that point and only had so much time she could be away from production in New York City to promote Don't Think Twice in Los Angeles. When she couldn't fit At Midnight into her schedule, they asked me to do it. And then when it looked like they'd have to fly me out to LA, they went back to Tami to see if she was really sure she couldn't participate.
I mean, she's on the movie poster. Of course she was higher priority. She just never knew I was in the mix.
[Music fades]
Tami Sagher When you first started telling the story, I was like, "How far down this list was I?"
Connor Ratliff I mean, everything about that makes more sense that you would do it. Yeah.
Tami Sagher That's why I was getting upset at this story. I was like, "This is hurting my feelings at a certain—" It's that—your line from the movie: That, that story hurt my feelings.
Connor Ratliff That could be the tagline or the mission statement for this whole podcast. That is thematically at the root of everything, which is, you know, you try to be a professional, but there's, you know, artists are emotional people. We're, we're temperamental people, I think. And it's hard not to take everything personally, even when you know that it's not personal.
Tami Sagher To me it's not even about that, it's just...you need to put your focus somewhere better and somewhere healthier. And care about other people more.
Connor Ratliff I mean, a lot of times it's for, you know, comedic effect that I will pivot everything back to me and what's going on with me. But I think the important part is to then pivot things back to, well, there are other people in the world, like I'm not the center of...I mean, I'm the center of this podcast, but that's a very small little pocket of everything and anything.
Tami Sagher [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And I think things are more interesting when you consider other people, even in on a selfish level, it's very dull to just be thinking about yourself all the time.
Tami Sagher And I, I think it is telling that you started acting again when you found UCB and when you found that community, like, I do think that like, it's a blast to improvise with you because you are a worker among workers. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I never thought about UCB in terms of what it could do for me, my thought was, I would like to be a part of this thing like, that these people are doing. Like, I would like to be someone who's worthy of performing at a certain level with people who are fun and interesting to perform with and inspiring to perform with. And I've tried to feel that way...obviously things are different in the professional world because it's everybody's, you know, it's your job, it's your livelihood. It's easy to get scared that things are going to dry up.
[Melancholic jazz waltz starts]
Tami Sagher But I think it's about approaching a job and thinking, How can I be of service? How—what value am I adding? And it just being like, because—the part is not about Private Whatever-His-Name-Was. You're, you're there to be of service to the scene and to the other actor. And it gets you out of your own head. Because it's like, for me, that's what I miss so desperately about improv, just going out there on stage with somebody else and making eye contact and just being like, "What are we going to make together?"
Connor Ratliff When we return I'll be talking to Ira Glass producer of Don't Think Twice.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff Well, it's so nice to talk to you, Ira.
Ira Glass So nice to talk to you. I literally have no idea what we're about to do.
[Groovy jazz piano tune starts]
Connor Ratliff Oh, that's great. Uh, I had run into you. Uh...[fades]
Connor Ratliff If you listened to our Season Two prologue, you've already heard a little bit of my conversation with Ira Glass. Nothing you're about to hear was in that, no repeats. But you already know that Ira and I get along pretty well. But that doesn't change the fact that there was a time when he was my boss and I was terrified of him. Not because he ever gave me any reason to be frightened, just because I was bracing myself for the worst.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff You were one of the people who would have been in a position—You, you have been my boss on a film, essentially, because you were a producer on Don't Think Twice.
Ira Glass Yes.
Connor Ratliff So technically, you're someone who, if you'd wanted to, maybe you could have fired me or you could have gotten me fired that kind of producer.
Ira Glass [Laughs] Yeah. If I had had one wrong look from you, Connor. [Laughs] One— if you'd cutting line at the craft services table one time! [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Ira Glass No, I mean, the truth is like, I wasn't involved in the casting at all—at all—and, uh, and barely ever showed up on set. And so it, so, so it was very, it would be very theoretical, the thought that I would intervene in this one matter.
Connor Ratliff So you weren't a hands-on producer. You were—in, in that sense you were supportive and helpful, but you weren't around like, trying to mix it up.
Ira Glass I was very hands-on during the two phases when I felt like I could make a substantive contribution. And that is when Mike Birbiglia who wrote the film, uh, when he was figuring out the structure and figuring out, you know, just the best ways to do certain scenes. It was, you know, I was, I was one of the people who he would like, brainstorm with and throw around ideas with.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Ira Glass And then in the edit room, just kind of looking at what was working and what wasn't and moving stuff around and stuff. Like, I feel like when it comes to editing stuff, I can be perfectly helpful in a film. Any other part of it? I am no [laughter]—
Connor Ratliff Right.
Ira Glass You don't want me, I shouldn't be there for casting or...shooting or anything else. I know nothing about it.
Connor Ratliff So you could, you could have cut me out of the film. You, you could have maybe given him a note or two saying—
Ira Glass Oh yes, yes. I could have cut you out. Yes.
Connor Ratliff "This scene isn't working," or "I don't like that shot," or, you know, because I was only in a few seconds of the film really. So it wouldn't have taken much.
[Gnarly stand-up bass line starts]
Ira Glass It wouldn't have taken that much...except you nailed the seconds. You nailed them perfectly. There was—No complaints.
Connor Ratliff [Laughs] I first met you at one of the, um, the script readings at Mike's house.
Ira Glass Yeah.
Connor Ratliff I don't, I don't think you'll remember this, uh, because it's the kind of experience that only one side really remembers, but I sort of had an awkward first meeting with you because...[fades]
Connor Ratliff I asked Ira if he remembered any of it: our non-introduction, my discomfort pitching an idea in front of him. And of course he didn't because none of this was particularly memorable, but he did remember what became of my note on the script.
Ira Glass Wait, we should say you're leaving out an important point. And that is, basically, that's what we ended up doing! More or less...[Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Yeah. Yeah.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff And then the next time that we met, we were filming the scene of them performing the show to almost no one.
Ira Glass Yes.
Connor Ratliff I was talking to someone about the show Treme. You like, overheard part of our conversation, you came up and you said, "Oh, what's the deal with that show? Is that a good show?" You asked, and I had a very specific take on Treme and we had a great—what I felt was a very successful conversation. I was like, "Well, now, that's how I wanted to meet Ira."
Ira Glass And not pitch an idea that he seems to discard and then steals. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I told you that—the story of the Band of Brothers thing, and I'm curious, like when you hear that story, because different people respond to it in different ways, and a lot of times it depends on if they've been a boss or if they'd been an employee more, that, that the way they relate to it differently.
Ira Glass I mean, I am a boss, and I have fired people, but, but honestly like, like, in the kind of journalism context I'm in, it's more like a normal job [laughs].
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Ira Glass You know what I mean? Like, it's just somebody who you're working with all the time. And if, if you know, they're not doing a certain thing, you try to work with them to get them to do it differently, and then at some point you kind of call it.
And, um, and so no, like I don't relate to it as a boss at all. It just seems like you're walking down the street and then a bolt of lightning hits you, the way you described the story. Like, it just sort of like, something you didn't even know that you were doing wrong and don't have any control over. And then suddenly you're like, "Oh, that's going to see my fate, this thing that I never even thought of that could be a thing?
Connor Ratliff Well, not just a bolt of lightning, but like, the most well-liked bolt of lightning that there has ever been, you know?
Ira Glass Yeah. Yeah. But wait, then what's the question you want an answer to from him? What did you just want to know if he said you have dead eyes?
Connor Ratliff I want to know if he really looked at that tape and thought that I had dead eyes, and if that was really the reason why I was fired from that part.
Ira Glass But what are you going to do with that information once you know it?
Connor Ratliff I mean, what advice would you give to the coyote if he...[laughs]
Ira Glass If he catches the roadrunner? Well, let's, let's just imagine both worlds for a second. Okay?
Connor Ratliff Yeah. Yeah.
Ira Glass Let's imagine that you find out he had nothing to do with that decision. He's like, "Actually this is a whole level of casting—I didn't go any—I didn't go below this line on the call sheet." Like, and you find out he never said it had nothing to do with it. How's it make you feel as you head off into the rest of your life?
Connor Ratliff I mean, he was there for the re-audition, but if I find out that this was somebody else's call and that he was just there that day, and then he was one of, you know, 10 people in the room who signed off on, "Yeah. Let's get somebody else." If it wasn't his call...it actually is kind of a relief.
Ira Glass Because you don't feel like this beloved, iconic man dislikes you personally.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Ira Glass Okay. I understand that. But now let's, let's imagine the world where he says, "Yes. Um, you know, I, I had you fired because you have dead eyes. And I'm—stand by it. [Laughs] Like, the other guy was better. Well, how does that make you feel?
Connor Ratliff I think it makes me feel better.
Ira Glass Why do you feel better?
Connor Ratliff I think...[sighs] it's hard to articulate, I think, but I think I want to hear it from him. I think I, I never heard it from him. I heard it from somebody else outside of the room. And then I was put into a car and then I was gone and I think it feels like...you ever have a conversation with somebody and then it gets cut off and you weren't quite done?
Ira Glass I understand. It'll it'll, it'll, it'll make the knife to the heart go in a little more deeply. Like, [laughs] you don't have to imagine it, you'll know it's real. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff This is an embarrassing thing to admit. I think if I think about it, I want Tom Hanks to like me.
Ira Glass Everyone wants Tom Hanks to like them. He's just like one of those people. You know what I mean? [Laughs] You know, you want like, yeah, sure. Like you, you like, you, like, you want to, you want to talk to Obama sometime and you want Obama to go away thinking like, That guy's pretty smart.
[Laughing] You know, like, like, like, yeah, sure. That's a normal thing for that we all feel, but, but I don't know, man. I, I, I, uh, I think, uh, I just want to pose a theory, which, which is that if both outcomes make you feel better, that's the end of your show and you, and you can stop the show here. Like, like that you can just end the show because you know that both outcomes make you feel better. So you don't actually have to experience either one.
Like, actually, since either one—since you understand—either one will make you feel better, and there's only two possibilities: either he says, "I remember it." [Laughing] Or he says he doesn't remember it. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I think, I think within those possibilities, there are other possibilities. I also think there are versions that don't make me feel better. Ah, it's also possible that he could agree to meet with me. Tell me he doesn't remember, and that he wishes I hadn't done this podcast, which would make me feel bad.
Ira Glass [Laughs] I think that's actually, I think it's very likely, he'll say he doesn't remember. And I think it's very unlikely that he would say he wished you didn't do the podcast. But I think that. He just doesn't seem like somebody who feels like just looking at his public persona. He doesn't seem like somebody who feels a need to pick a fight with a random person. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
Ira Glass Or to try to make a random person feel bad. If anything, you know, it seems like...probably the opposite. So...
Connor Ratliff Yeah, so maybe he—that might be a reason why he might want to do the podcast because maybe it'd make him feel good to have this moment of bonding over this small, forgotten slight.
Ira Glass I, I do think it's good that you're taking action.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Ira Glass But let me ask you, another way you could take action is to just embark on some creative project that's utterly unrelated to this and walk away from this the way you'd walk away from a, from a car wreck in the desert.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Ira Glass And your car is on fire and there's camels starting to come around and vultures and you just walk away and find a source of water. And a way to—place to live your life.
Connor Ratliff That's true. But Ira, if I'm being honest, I've had more success doing this podcast than with any of the other things that I've tried to do. So this is...
Ira Glass [Laughs] You're saying America also wants Tom Hanks to like you. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I think it would make people feel really good if we had a really fun conversation about a thing that used to make me feel bad and doesn't anymore.
Ira Glass Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And I think it would be funny. And I think he knows it'd be funny.
Ira Glass What a burden on somebody like Tom Hanks to think of how every single person he runs into is having this emotional relationship with him that he doesn't think twice about.
I'm reminded of, of a friend of mine who was on Letterman, describing walking down the hall with Letterman at Letterman's own show and how Letterman wouldn't look up and meet anyone's eye. Because anyone [laughs] eye he'd met would start a conversation with him. And he was trying to get from like, point A to point B. And so he had to be like, sort of intentionally, uh, like avoidy to [laughing] to avoid that and actually go from point A to point B.
And I feel like, Oh, when you describe Tom Hanks's life, it's like a trail of emotions people are having about Tom Hanks in his wake in this way, which is just like...it's, it's so, it's so crazy.
Connor Ratliff It's too much.
Ira Glass It's too, uh, it's, it's too much. I mean, the fact that you had that feeling about me in a slight way after that first conversation gives me pause.
Connor Ratliff Because it makes you realize that you're having an effect on people, whether you realize it or not?
Ira Glass [Pauses] I mean, I guess I understand that in an abstract way, but, um...
Connor Ratliff Do you get star struck?
Ira Glass I get star struck of people who I knew before they were stars and then they became famous. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
Ira Glass And then I feel intimidated when I was just like, "Wait, are we still talking? Are you—Like we're still friends?" Like, that's totally happened to me more than once.
[Sweet, curious piano and string piece starts]
Connor Ratliff I mean, you heard about the way I kind of obsessed about the time that you and I first met. If that had been the only time that I had met you, I would think about it a lot. But I got to have the Treme conversation with you.
Ira Glass On your advice I started watching the show.
Connor Ratliff Did you finish it?
Ira Glass No.
[Music plays out and ends]
Connor Ratliff Do you remember deciding like, "I'll ask Connor to be in this movie?"
Mike Birbiglia I don't remember the moment—
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
Mike Birbiglia But I do know that I had in my mind that I really wanted you to be in it somewhere.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Mike Birbiglia And then at a certain point, I had written Gillian's character to be a teacher of improv. And then I was like, "Oh, well, if she's a teacher, that seems like a nice way to sort of like for her to be passing that integrity on to other people."
And then I was like, "Oh, well, then her students would be important." And so then I was thinking like of other people I'd improvised with like you and Gary Richardson and Jo Firestone. And I thought, That could be a really good fit.
And I think the only thing about you playing that part that bumped me was like, maybe you were a little too old to be a student.
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
Mike Birbiglia But then at a certain point, we thought it was sort of funny that you were too old to be a student
Connor Ratliff It was also true, because I didn't start taking improv classes until I was 33.
Mike Birbiglia Yeah.
Connor Ratliff So in a way, like most of my improv peers initially were all at least a decade younger than me.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughing] Oh my gosh. Yes.
Connor Ratliff Was I ever difficult as an actor to work with?
Mike Birbiglia No, no, no. You're easy. You know, in the edit—when you edit these things, you spend a lot of time with the footage. And so you really get to know like, everybody's take of every single line and everything, and then you have some actors who you go, "Oh wow. They really only have one good take per shot." And, and, or, or even like, [laughing] a strung together series of decent takes per scene. And then they look like geniuses. You know, that people go, "That person's amazing." You're thinking to yourself, like, Oh, gosh, if you only knew how many hours it took to make that person look like a genius.
And then there's some people, and I think you were like this, where there was nothing that you were doing that was unusable. You're very truthful, you know? Because you have an improv background. And so you're based, you, you base your performance in truth. And I think like, for my movies, Sleepwalk With Me and Don't Think Twice it's all based on like, verité. Like, it's all based on like, playing it real, as real as you can possibly play it.
And so I felt you, I felt like you were always doing that. As opposed to pretending to be a thing, you know like, sometimes people would audition for the movie and it'd be like, "Well, it's about failing improvisers."
And then they'd be like, "I'M FAILING!" You know? You're like, no, no, no, no. It's not like that. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Yeah, no. True failure in improv looks like you're trying to be great. [Laughs]
Mike Birbiglia [Laughing] Yeah.
Connor Ratliff That's the secret to looking like a failure in improv is like, do your best.
Mike Birbiglia Yeah yeah yeah! "Do your best!" Do your best. That's, that's actually—You know, one of the reasons I made the movie, I think I was inspired to make the movie is, I did college improv. Um, my freshman year I was cast in the college improv troop and it completely defined everything I did afterwards in my life.
Every piece of standup storytelling, improv, sketch comedy, anything, was defined by improv. And one of the things is "Played to the height of your intelligence." You're, you're always like that. You're always playing to the height of your intelligence and that that's why you're such a compelling performer to watch.
Connor Ratliff Um, can I just ask, have you ever, have you ever crossed paths with Tom Hanks, professionally or personally?
Mike Birbiglia I have, um, we, we did a Director's Guild screening event of Sleepwalk With Me. Um, and Ira Glass is friendly with Tom and, uh, so he invited him. And so...He sent me a nice note about Don't Think Twice. He really liked Don't Think Twice, actually.
Connor Ratliff Is that true? Oh my god.
Mike Birbiglia Um, let me see if I can find the email. I—It didn't occur to me until just now.
Connor Ratliff I'm not going to ask you to read his email address out loud.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughing] No, let's not.
Connor Ratliff I won't do that. I won't, I won't do it, Mike.
Mike Birbiglia [Clears throat] We're not going to, we're not going to say the email.
Connor Ratliff No.
Mike Birbiglia But he sent me a nice note that said, "We watched your beautiful movie last night, and you sent it to me today!" Because I just, I'd sent him, I'd sent him a link to the, to the movie. And he had just watched it, apparently. This was from 2016. And he said, uh—
[Folk guitar piece starts]
"The tone was perfect. Wonderful and authentic. Uh, how many of us found our home and our tribe onstage in improv and in comedy. I loved all those people and envied them. Your movie is the perfect reflection of our lives and SNL. -Tom."
Connor Ratliff When Ira asked me what I was trying to figure out with this show, I told him, I just wanted Tom Hanks to like me. I think I was imagining that that validation would come after having worked with him someday or getting a chance to talk with him again. And Mike asked me at the start of all this if I was looking for an exploration or an answer.
An answer. That's something I rarely get. But you heard the email: Tom Hanks loved all those people in Don't Think Twice.
Connor Ratliff Mike...I can't believe...This is the first confirmation that I've gotten that Tom Hanks has seen me in something.
Mike Birbiglia Wow.
Connor Ratliff That is better than I could have expected. And we almost didn't get it, Mike, like, I was about to say goodbye and we wouldn't have gotten that moment.
Mike Birbiglia No, that's huge. That's huge. I'd say in the context of the narrative of this podcast, I actually think that's a decent little plot point.
Connor Ratliff I mean, I'm this close to putting that as a legit quote, "I loved all these people," and then an asterisk, "I count—"
Mike Birbiglia Please don't do that. [Laughing]
Connor Ratliff I'm one of "the people." It was "all the people."
Mike Birbiglia [Laughing] Please don't do that. No, because I feel like I've already crossed a line by even reading his email. But I—
Connor Ratliff Oh! Thank you, Mike.
Mike Birbiglia [Laughing] You're welcome. It all comes full circle.
Connor Ratliff "I loved all those people and envied them." And I was one of those people, at least technically speaking. Sure you could probably argue that he's talking about other people in the movie.
[Aimee Mann's "The Moth" starts]
Probably the ones on the poster who have more screen time, dialogue, character depth, but there's really no way to know that for certain,
Mike Birbiglia I want to be clear the only reason I'm comfortable reading someone's private email is that it was friendly and positive—
Connor Ratliff And it serves the scene. So I'm not going to think too hard about it.
Dead Eyes is a production of Headgum Studios. It was created by me, Connor Ratliff. It's written by me, and it's mostly me that you hear talking, including now.
The show is produced and edited by Harry Nelson and Mike Comite.
Special thanks to my guests, Mike Birbiglia, Tami Sagher, and Ira Glass.
And thanks to Aimee Mann for letting us use this song that's playing in the background. It's called "The Moth" from her classic 2002 album Lost in Space.
If you like Dead Eyes, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do: subscribe, rate, review, follow us on Twitter @deadeyespodcast. And talk about us nicely on social media. If you want to reach out, the email address is deadeyespodcast@gmail.com.
Please tell your friends about this show. Especially if you are friends with Tom Hanks, whose dramatic performance as an up-and-coming standup comedian in the 1988 movie Punchline also provided a view of the highs and lows of trying to find success in the world of professional comedy.
See you next time. Stay safe. Wear a mask
["The Moth" ends]