Season 2, Episode 26: Emergent Strategy Podcast
“Controlling Our Narrative with Vicki Meek”
*Please note: these transcripts are intended to increase the accessibility of the podcast; there should be no reprinting or distribution without permission.
Vicki: You know, you have more responsibility to your community than anything else. And that community is a big community. It's not just your people around you, you know, your family or whatever. It's the Black community, wherever you find it.
Theme Music: (00:29) (“Wolves” - Hurray for the Riff Raff)
Sage: (00:37) Greetings everyone, and welcome to this episode of the Emergent Strategy Podcast, hosted by the Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute. We're a collective of facilitators, mediators, trainers, and just overall curious human beings, interested in how we get in right relationship with change. Today, I'm guiding our interview, and my name is Sage. I'm ESII's architect. For those of you who may be new to emergent strategy or just always as a good refresher, it's always good to hear, emergent strategy is the way we generate and reshape complex systems and patterns with relatively simple interactions. So, how do we eat that elephant in that metaphor, right? The elephant one piece at a time. How do we actually hold the whole thing, while we also work on it piece by piece? And in this podcast, we have an opportunity to talk to people that we see moving in the world who are doing just that, who are addressing some of the large scale issues in our world through their work and through their thinking. (01:38) And so I am so excited <laugh> today to be in conversation with Vicki Meek. Vicki Meek is an artist, curator, arts administrator, cultural critic whose career spans decades. Just, I'm gonna call her Mama Vicki, it's gonna happen during this; I might as well just get it out early. <both laugh> I have had the pleasure of knowing this person for over 10 years now and learning at her feet multiple times. Vicki Meek has has been awarded a number of honors, including the Dallas Observer Mastermind Award, Black Filmmakers Mission Award, Women of Visionary Influence, among so many. I could keep going and going. She has, most recently I wanna say, her retrospective, "Decades of Social Comment"-- "Vicki Meek, Decades of Social Commentary" went up at the Houston Museum of African American Culture in November, 2019. I was thinking about how I would end, end your intro, Mama Vicki. And I was, like, if I had a vision board on how to do life right < Vicki laughs>, she would be on it. <both laugh>.
Vicki: Thank you for that.
Sage: <laugh>. Thank you. Welcome.
Vicki: Thank you for that.
Sage: Welcome to the podcast.
Vicki: I'm so happy to be in conversation with you always. Always. Cause it's never dull when I'm talking to Sage Crump. Never dull.
Sage: <laugh>. I appreciate that. How are you doing right now? How are you doing today?
Vicki: I'm doing great. I, I literally just got back from the regional ROOTS week, you know, thing we're doing with Houston people, and that was great. I actually reconnected with a friend of mine that I had not talked to in years, and Felicia came, and it was like, oh my god, you know--old home week. So it was a double treat to be down in conversation with all those young people about, you know, what they're doing in the world of social justice and change. And then, to have Felicia be there was just the icing on the cake. So,it was great.
Sage: (03:40) Oh.
Vicki: Yeah.
Sage: Oh that sounds like such amazing book ends.
Vicki: (03:43) Yeah, but I had to drive, so, you know. I'm tired. <both laugh> And I'm going home--Wednesday, I'm going to Mexico. So, it's like, I'm turning around and going right back out.
Sage: (03:55)Okay, so you're just making the case for why I say you are on my vision board <Vicki laughs> for how to do life right. <laugh>
Vicki: (04:02) Well, I'm having a good time. I'll say that much, you know. But I've had a good time throughout, you know? It's like, people say to me all the time, well, don't you miss the center? You know, you retired. I said, Oh no, you don't understand. When I was ready to leave, I was ready to leave. And that's kind of how I look at it. You know, I, I had done all that I thought I needed to do, and it was time for the next person to take over and do something. But I knew that it was time for me to do just my art, and I've been doing it ever since, and it's been great. Having a lovely time.
Sage: (04:37)Oh, I can't wait to be in so much conversation about where you are in your life right now. One of the things we often offer at the beginning of the podcast is that we see you as an emergent strategist. I see you as an emergent strategist, and part of what that means to me is what you're sharing right now. Some of the elements of emergent strategy are creating more possibility: how do we move in the world that creates more possibility? Intentional adaptation: when do we know when it's time to make a shift, and how? Non-linear and iterative: that the pace of change, that it's not A to B, it's A to A.5, A to A.2, like, how to, how to navigate the non-linearity and how to be with the non-linearity of life that it's not always a straight trajectory. And so, when I think about your life, your career, all the places I know you have been, I think about you as an emergent strategist and particularly for the non-linearity, for the creating more possibilities, and for the intention. Y'all. When I say this woman is intentional, for the intention adaptation. Does that--, when you think about your experience, your work, and your life, does that feel true to you?
Vicki: (05:54) Absolutely true to me. And just to give you an example of how true it is, when I came out of graduate school with my MFA--, now mind you, I had gone to the academy my entire life. Meaning, I never did anything but art as far as education was concerned, because I just knew that I wanted to get out of graduate school, and I wanted to teach at an HBCU, cause that was how I was gonna give back, and da da da da da da da. And so, I went and got that first job at Kentucky State University. And woo, child. Let me just say <laugh>. My father told me that an HBCU will do one of two things for you. It will either make you go crazy, or it'll make you grow up real quick. I did a little of both, but the crazy got little outta hand when it came to what I was threatening to do to the president of the university, and so, I knew it was time for me to leave. Cause first of all, I knew I was never gonna get tenure. No one was gonna give me tenure acting the way I acted, because I was not going along with their program, you know. And they had just built a brand new art department and a brand new art building, and they had a gallery, which I was running, et cetera, and--. But they weren't investing in those students, and I wasn't having any of that. You know, so. So that--it was that was the first time when I did a real pivot about, well maybe that isn't the way that I'm supposed to do this. Maybe there's another path that I'm supposed to follow. And it was about at that time, that the opportunity came up for me to join the staff of the Connecticut Commission on the Arts as their artists in schools coordinator. (07:39) And so, I took that job and primarily, I took it because my baby sister was at Yale at the time, and she was having a very difficult time. We did not know at that time that she was badly ADD. And so, you know, it was just a struggle. So, my mother had decided that if I was gonna look for a new job, that I might as well look in Connecticut, and see what there was there, so I could, like, help my baby sister, so.
Sage: Okay.
Vicki: All worked out. You know, I found that job. I took that job--, not without some, you know, strategic struggling, cause they didn't want me in that job. They wanted me in, what was the quote, Black job. But I hadn't applied for that job. So, it had to be a threatened lawsuit for them to do the right thing. But anyway, I get there, and I did that for three years, moving from artists in schools coordinator, to being a senior program administrator, just sort of administering all of the programs of the commission, but more importantly, that was when I first began to get very deeply involved in community arts development. And that was what really set me on my path from then on, of working with community, for the most part to make sure that the arts became ingrained in a particular community. So, by the time I moved to Texas in 1980, I had done a lot of that work and I-- (09:01)
Sage: Mm-hmm
Vicki: --technically speaking, was coming here to get married, to be a full-time artist and to never do arts administration again. And you know how that turned out?
Sage: Oh.
Vicki: You know how that turned out.
Sage: Back to the non-linear. <laugh>
Vicki: Yeah, yeah. That didn't turn out too well. Cause Jerry Allen came to town, he took over the city arts program, and found out I was in town, and asked somebody that asked me to apply for this job he had. And because we wanted to buy a house, and the bank wasn't gonna lend us money to buy a house without one of me or my ex-husband--both of us were self-employed at the time [WORD UNCLEAR] they said, Somebody gotta have a job we can track.
Sage: Okay.
Vicki: So, I decided, okay, I'll go back, and I'd work for Jerry Allen. So, that's how I got back into arts administration, cause I did freelance for about two years. I had my own graphic design studio, and, you know, blah blah blah, did all that. Baby came along, had to get some real coins that could buy a house. And that's when I got back into arts administration. And I truthfully--, I only did the city for three years before I moved on to running Art--, Visual Arts Center. And I did that until the bottom fell outta the economy. And then, I went from there to being the artistic director for Imagination Celebration, and being co-project artist on the biggest public art project in Dallas. So, you know, I did a lot of things before I took over the center.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: Because even before the center, I went--, when I got divorced, I went and became the community development person for East Dallas Community School. And that was--, oddly enough, that was the piece that was missing from what I was trying to do in community, because that's where I got all my knowledge about early childhood education and realized we gotta start there. You know, we don't--, we don't need to do anything else if we don't start with those babies and bring them up in the culture. And then, they'll be indestructible.
Sage: Ooh!
Vicki: So that was--, that piece was perf--, that piece was perfect, cause by the time I got to the center, it was, like, I got rid of all that adult programming, said go to--, y'all can go do what you gonna do, but I'm gonna start--, I'm gonna center this around these children, and, you know, the rest is kind of history. You know, I--I did that for 20 years and built, you know, a curriculum that really did fortify those children, many of whom are doing fabulous things themselves now. So, that's, that's kind of the trajectory. And then when I knew that I had run outta ideas, not I had run outta ideas--. I had run outta energy doing that work and realized that it was--. (11:35)
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: It needed younger, more energetic individuals in that space, because I now needed to do my art. Not that I ever stopped, cause I, I was--, I was an administrator who never--, I never stopped making art. Because I knew that as a Black woman, if you're outta sight, you're outta mind. So, I had to keep myself in the mix. So, when I came out, and I was doing maybe three shows the last year that I retired, I had three exhibitions that were happening almost simultaneously. And I was like, Oh no, I can't--, I can't do this, and do this, this full-time job; that's not gonna work. And I had--, I had amassed enough in my retirement, that I knew I could live comfortably--, not wealthy or anything like that, but comfortably.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: Along with, you know, maybe doing a gig here, a gig there; I'd be all right. And that's what I did. And it's been gangbusters ever since. You know, it's like, because I didn't stop at--, drop out of the art scene all that time, I didn't have to, like, at 65, step in and try to make a world for myself in visual art--. I was already in it, so I could just ramp it up, which is what I did.Music Break: (12:59) “Jupiter’s Dance” plays. Lyrics: “I'm a window to your room, and you'll never be home. I'm a keeper of the moon, and you'll never be home.”
Sage: (13:05) One of the things I was really interested in talking with you about is this idea of, like, work life balance.
Vicki: Mmm.
Sage: Folks have heard me push--, I push against this idea of work life balance as if the--, I say it's a capitalist structure to make you feel bad about how you spend your time. Right, like, it's just, like, Oh, I don't spend enough time here. Oh, I don't spend enough time here. Oh, I spend too much time here. And, like, it's just this flip flop. And when I listen to you talk about being able to hold both throughout the time, at different maybe scales or amounts--
Vicki: Oh yeah.
Sage: --at different times, but ne--, it doesn't--, I don't hear in what you've shared and what I know, that you ever necessarily felt like, what--, that they were distinct from each other.
Vicki: (13:46) Right.
Sage: (13:47) Your work and your life.
Vicki: (13:48) Right. No, I--, in fact, someone asked me that question once about how did I separate--. Cause, you know, my art life was in Houston; it was not in Dallas. My arts administration life was in Dallas. And they said, Well how did, how did you manage this? I said, They're not separate. It's just that I had to find a place where I would not be competing with the very people I was supposed to be helping, which was my Dallas artist group.
Sage: Yes.
Vicki: So, I made a conscious decision that I was going to--, I was gonna be in Texas, but I was not gonna be in my city doing art. And it worked out beautifully. The people in, in Houston didn't even know I was an arts administrator. And the people in Dallas didn't even know I was an artist. So, you know, it's like, worked out alright. But, you know, one always informed the other. So it was not like any of it was separated. It was, you know, my life as an activist, as an artist, as a educator, as a cultural critic, all of those things are all tied up together, and I don't know how to do it any other way.
Sage: (14:49) I appreciate that for two reasons. I highlighted early on that I feel like you're one of the most intentional people I know. And, and even just that little sentence that you said, like, I had an art practice in Houston because I didn't wanna compete with the folks I was in Dallas, and who I was designed to help in Dallas. I think that strategy, right, like, that strategy of, like, how to both care for yourself and others at the same time is a model. Right, like, you didn't have to martyr your art practice and be like, Oh I'm just this to support these folks. You figured out a way to live in your whole fullness and support them in their whole fullness at the same time.
Vicki: (15:30) And in doing that, what happens is I also created opportunities for my Dallas artists in Houston. So, you know, it--, it was a twofold thing. Yes, I was doing my artwork and having an art life there, but every time I had an opportunity to push having a Dallas artist show in Houston or to be a part of a piece that I was working on or whatever, that happened too. So, I was simultaneously creating other opportunities wherever I was having an opportunity. So, I got artists who, you know, did not--, they didn't know anything about San Antonio's art scene. I got artists to show in Austin. I got artists to show all over the state, whereas before, they were simply showing in Dallas. So--
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: --you know, I just look at when I--, my motto is when I get, you get. So, that's the way I look at it.
Sage: (16:17) See, I missed one of the emergent strategy elements that is so clear. And it's interdependence.
Vicki: Mm-hmm.
Sage: It's interdependence, right, like, how--. We're gonna get this together without anybody having to, to run themselves ragged. But I also feel like that, even when you mentioned San Antonio, one of the things I think about around interdependence is your experience in collaboration. Cause a lot of, I don't know why I wanna say a lot of your work, but a lot of what I know of your work has been also in collaboration with performing artists, even before it became the thang, you know, like, everybody is interdisciplinary now, but, you know. [CROSS TALK] <laugh> You've been building collaborations with folks across discipline for many, many years, is--. I would love to hear about your thoughts on how you approach collaboration or interdependence, and how that lives in that.
Vicki: (17:06) Well, you know, I like to say that I built my artistic aesthetic around what I consider traditional African art, which is that everything is connected. You know, in Africa, in every part of Africa, you don't hear until, until you get people trained in the European traditions, you don't hear people in the village talking about, Oh, I'm a visual artist. Oh, I'm a dancer. Oh, I'm a drummer, or, you know. They just talk about, I do this, and they do whatever they do with everything in it, you know. My friend Nana Dita (PHONETIC), who's from Ghana, she did dance, drumming, visual arts. I mean, she did everything because that's what they do. So, I like to think that what I was doing was really sort of tapping into that aesthetic of being an artist, and don't label me, don't tell me what I'm in. I will determine what I'm in based on what I'm called to do at that moment. (18:05) If I'm called to move with a movement artist, then that's what I'll be doing. I don't like the idea of being siloed into the disciplines, even though I was trained, you know, very traditionally, in that way. I really pushed against it early on. Because, first of all, I was trained as a sculptor and quickly figured out I couldn't even say everything I wanted to say in sculpture, which is how I got into installation. You know, it was like, this doesn't allow me to explore all the things I wanna explore. So, I quickly moved even out of my own discipline as a trained visual artist to another, more eclectic, more collaborative, more diverse kind of a medium because it allowed me to really explore a lot of things that, you know, one medium wouldn't allow. So, collaboration for me is a way of sort of expanding my ability to say things that I wanna say to an audience, and I usually look for people--. Like, I've always been driven by music. You know, like, jazz was a big, big part of my process.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: I consider myself very improvisational in terms of the way in which I create. I looked to--. I don't even--. The funny thing is I've never been--, other than Elizabeth Catlett and a few others, Romare Bearden and Jacob Lawrence and people like that from their more political standpoint. I was never most influenced by visual artists. I was more influenced by the theater, by music, and by dance.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: So, it was the performing arts that I was more drawn to, and probably because, you know, most of those mediums, they're looking at issues all the time.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: And that's what I was doing with my work. So, it made sense that I would be moved by the Negro Ensemble that I, you know, started seeing when I was a teenager, to the dance performances by Ail--, early Ailey. You know, all of that stuff sat with me when I was developing as an artist. And so, I think it's sort of a natural inclination to collaborate with other disciplines because they're interesting to me and they push me.
Sage: (20:19) Yeah, I love the weaving of that from the continent to, to your own learning. And you're leading me to probably where I had originally thought I would start, which is sort of, when you think about your work, or just how you think about work, life, and what you offer the world as an artist, what is your lineage? Right, like, who, who helped frame--, form your ideas on what it meant to be an artist? Your political ideas on what's going on in the world and what might need to change in it?
Vicki: (20:52) Well, I was very blessed to have a family. I grew up in a family, and I'm talking about my grandparents were highly political in the sense that Black liberation was on their mind all the time, and they were involved in those struggles from day one. So, I grew up in a family where we were always involved in liberatory, liberatory work.
Sage: Mm-hmm. (21:12)
Vicki: I mean, I was on a picket line at the age of six, you know, when my children friends were out there playing on Saturdays. We were down there at Woolworth's picketing. And not because we couldn't go into Woolworths in Philadelphia, but because our brothers and sisters couldn't go into those stores down South. So, you know, it was--. Granted, as a six year old, I did not understand that--why I could not be out playing on Saturday, and I had to be at Woolworths with a picket sign, I did not understand that. But of course, as we got older, all of us, all my siblings say, We're so happy that our parents took us and had us engaged in these struggles, because it made us understand that, you know, you have more responsibility to your community than anything else. And that community is a big community. It's not just your people around you, you know, your family or whatever. It's the Black community, wherever you find it. And that has served me well, because it's kept me clear-eyed about what the work needs to be. So, for me, it was my parents, my grandparents, I mean, all of their friends were of this ilk. You know, we now understand they were all investigated by the FBI on a regular basis. <both laugh>. We kept, we kept thinking about, now why were we going to this particular dentist? Well, that particular dentist was also in the Communist party <laugh>. So it's like, ahh, there you go. And then the doctor, you know, why, why are we going to [WORDS UNCLEAR]? Well, they all were in the progressive movement. And so, you know, I grew up with that. And then my parents were very supportive of any child that wanted to pursue the arts. Now, they weren't artists--
Sage: Lovely. (22:55)
Vicki: --but they felt like whatever their children wanted to do to explore creativity, they were gonna make it possible. And my mother was a masterful finder of free programs in Philadelphia, which back then, they had a lot of 'em, you know. I was enrolled at Fleischer Memorial Art School when I was eight years old to do sculpture. And then I did [WORD UNCLEAR] music, I did my dance there. My sister did dance and violin. The other one, my brother, was visual art and music. He did piano. So I mean, you know, we all were doing really serious study at a very early age. And my parents, when they said, Okay, she wants to be a sculptor, they put Elizabeth Catlett in front of me and--(23:38)
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: --showed me her as an example. And then, of course as I got older, I understood it was not just her art, it was her politics. That she was a woman who was engaged in the same political activities as they were. And she was doing amazing art at the same time, and she was raising a family. So, that was a very good example for me to have a Black woman, you know, outta DC, who made some decisions that got her thrown out of the country, and--, but yet, didn't stop her.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: You know, she was still going gangbusters down in Mexico. And that was my model. And then, of course, once I was a graduate student and got to meet her and become friends with her, and then to have her as a mentor, it was like heaven. Because I had the very best example I could have ever fabricated about how to be a Black woman artist in this world. And so, those are the things that helped shape me and continue--. I mean, I continue to draw inspiration from her, even though she's been gone since 2012. You know, I-I continue to draw inspiration from just the way in which she moved through the art world, never compromising and never not giving back. You know, her whole thing was--.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: The first time I met her, I was, you know, sitting on the steps of Howard, and she was one of the honorees that was gonna be getting the big honor. And, and she decided that rather than be in that room with the old folks, that she was gonna come out and hang out with the young folks. And she sat with us and the first question--, you know, I was starstruck. So the first question, I was like, Can you tell us what you're doing? And she said, Forget what I'm doing, I wanna know what you're doing. And that was that--, that was her from then on. I mean, that was who she was. You know, she was forever interested in what we as the next generation of Black artists were gonna do. So, I had a great example to follow, and I've tried my best to be that person as well for my fellow artists.
Sage: (25:37) Well, I will say you--, you absolutely have. If there, if there is any question. Like, I just--, I, I, I'm sitting here just feeling the reverberations of the way you describe Elizabeth Catlett in your life is how I would talk about you in mine.
Vicki: Oh! Thank you. Thank you.
Music Break: (26:12) “nightqueen” plays. “You know, they call me the night queen, ‘cause I live in the dark. And I don't let nobody near me, and not betray my heart.
Sage: And, and I'm looking at my questions, which are, what nourishes you, and what sustains you? Like, I think of those are, they're similar questions, but they're distinct, right, like, what's feeding you right now. But also, what are the things that keep the fire.
Vicki: Well, I've always--. I mean, frankly, this is one of the reasons why I always keep younger people in my circle is because that's what nourishes me, you know, is seeing people like you--, watching you grow into who you've become and knowing, you know, I mean, you started off pretty damn dynamic to begin with, but, you know. <Sage laughs> But, but, but just watching your growth, you know, as an administrator, as a thought leader, as, you know, someone who is now making national impact in ways that you might not have even imagined yourself doing when you were starting out; that gives me so much joy. And then to watch the way in which many of the artists who I've mentored have gone on and are just, you know, doing fabulous things and giving back as well. Not just doing well, but giving back to others as well. Those are the kinds of things that keep me going. But what nourishes me, and I should say what inspires me, because that nourishes me. What inspires me is things like getting to work with Gesel Mason, you know--
Sage: Yes. (27:35)
Vicki: --on a dance project that is so dynamic and so soul filling, you know. Those are the kinds of opportunities--, you know, hey, getting to work with Linda Parris-Bailey on a project with Carpet, Carpetbag. You know, those are the kinds of things that energize me in ways that don't necessarily come from me doing a show of my own, you know.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: I mean, I'm excited about doing my own work, obviously, you know, because I put everything into that, too. But what I really get charged by is being able to interact with an artist in another discipline and be a part of a team that creates something.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: You know, Gesel's piece, "Yes, And," if you get an opportunity to see it, it's something else. And, you know, just the whole premise of it, you know, what is a--, as a Black woman, you had nothing to worry about. Who would you be? What would you do? How would you be in community? The whole process was--, really filled my soul. That's all I can say. And then, it was almost--, I mean, Gesel was the oldest person other than me. She was the oldest person in the creative team.
Sage: Oh, interesting. (28:48)
Vicki: And she's not that old, you know.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: I mean, not to me, not to me. <Sage laughs> But. She--, see, she thinks she is, but that--, not to me. But the rest of them were all younger. I mean, I would say they were between the ages of mid twenties to maybe 40. And so--.
Sage: (29:05) Okay.
Vicki: --you know, to have all that energy and ideas, and she was allowing them to--. Like she said, she had to keep herself from having to over curate the whole thing.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: Let me let--, the whole idea is to let it be free, let it be free. So, you know, those are the kinds of things, though, that just inspire me so much, and keep me going. You know, I'm--I'm ready to do the next thing.
Sage: I love it. I mean, again, I came in with, like, these are the ways I think that you, you know, watching you move in the world makes emergent strategy, you know, makes sense. But this idea of--
Vicki: I think so.
Sage: --everything is relational, right, like? Back to, back to you were talking about--, it's, it's, you know, the African philosophies and how they both live in your work, but also, how you make the work, like, and that, doing it in relationship that actually is one of the--, I believe is one of the key sustainers to an artistic career, to some extent. Right, like, it's in the relationships; it's not just in the work itself.
Vicki: Right, right.
Sage: But who you get to work with, who you choose to work with. Someone said this to me not too long ago: it's not just the work that you do, but who's, who's next to you that makes a difference, like, when you do it.
Vicki: (30:10) Yeah. Cause, like, my latest project, which hasn't been announced yet, but it will be shortly, is with the Nasher Sculpture Center. I'm becoming their first fellow, and they allowed me to--
Sage: Congratulations.
Vicki: --design. Thanks. They allowed me to design what it is I wanna do, and what this fellowship should be. And what we are gonna be doing is we're gonna be exploring how to commemorate those communities of color that have literally been erased from the history of Dallas--
Sage: (30:36) Mmm.
Vicki: (30:36)--and what can we do to bring them to life even though they don't exist anymore. And so, I--I have a cohort of artists that I'll be working with, and what we'll do is, we will focus on 10th Street Historic District, because that is the last freedmen's town that actually exists in Dallas. I mean, they're holding on; they're, they're fighting to keep from the--, having the gentrification take over the community. So we'll start with that one as a existing freedman's town, but then examine all the others that are no longer here. In fact, the main one freedman's town was not just erased, but they named the whole neighborhood a whole new name.
Sage: Mm-hmm
Vicki: So there's not even a tie to the name anymore. And then figure out, you know, what--, I don't know, might be that they want a play written about themselves, or they want a little mini doc made of the--. I don't know what it's gonna be. They might, may want a mural, but we'll figure that out with the community, and then create whatever we create for that commemoration. And then, I said, 18 months is, you know, most I, I can give to it, but I wanna train the next group so that somebody else can take it over. And then we can look at the Mexican American community and the Indigenous community. (31:51) And I've got artists in all those groups that, you know, wanna, I wanna have involved with that. So that's a new project that we're just getting off the ground. And I'm excited about it because once again, it will allow me to connect to communities that I wasn't really deeply embedded in here to get their stories, to get them energized around documenting those stories so that they're not lost. You know, we have--, my friend John Slate is the city archivist, and he's committed to being our city agency involved, so that we can actually archive this stuff--
Sage: (32:30) Yeah.
Vicki: (32:30) --and have it available for, you know, generations to come. So yeah, that's the newest thing. That started this month. And by October, I'll have the cohort of artists on board, and we'll, we'll keep it moving.
Sage: (32:46) That's amazing. You know, there's so much--. I'm really appreciating such, so much brilliant work out around the re-imagination of the archive, particularly the re-imagination of the Black archive, and how various artistic mediums are being used, rather than, like, our--, the traditional, like, archive is something written, you know, that you put in a folder--
Vicki: (33:07) Right, you put in a box.
Sage: (33:07) But, like, the body as archive, plays as archive, like, how do we understand them as stories in the moment, but also as cultural artifacts that inform generations over time and stay kind of relevant contextually as well?
Vicki: (33:23) Yeah, that's something that is keenly interesting to me. My sister is actually an archivist, in the traditional archivist. You know, she's done a lot of work with the Schomburg and what have you. But, but she's somebody who I've looked at her because her field of interest is Black culture.
Sage: (33:40) Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (33:41) You know, she, she did Romare Bearden's archive. She did Nat King Cole's archive. She did Luther Henderson's archive. And so, she's interested in making sure that our people--, their stuff gets contained and, you know, put somewhere where we can get to it in the future. And she's always on me about, you know, What are you gonna do about yours, Vicki? What are you doing? I was like, Don't worry; I--I'm thinking about it. I'm thinking about it. But it always has me thinking about our history, period. You know, and wherever we are. You know, local, national, wherever we are, just making sure that that history gets preserved, and, and like you say, in traditional ways and in non-traditional ways, but that the stories get told.
Sage: (34:27) I remember not too long ago, you and I were on a webinar about archiving for Black artists.
Vicki: (34:32) Yes. Wasn't that cool? Steven was fabulous.
Sage: (34:36) It was so good. And the thing I remember is the person said, If you don't start thinking about your archive now, then you leave it for someone else to tell your story.
Vicki: (34:45) Mm-hmm.
Sage: (34:46)I was like, Ooh. Oh, I don't-- <laugh>
Vicki: (34:48) Yes. I don't want that.
Sage: (34:50)I want a hand in it at the very least, like.
Vicki: (34:54) Yeah, I mean that was, that was also something that stuck out with me, with what Steven was telling us is we have to control this narrative, because that is the part that's been so destructive, is that our story has been told, oftentimes by everybody but us. And, you know, it's never been correct. It--. Sometimes it ain't correct when it's told by us. But it definitely isn't correct when it's told by others, you know.
Sage: (35:19) Yes.
Vicki: (35:20) So, we have an obligation. And I mean, I--. I feel like I do that in my personal artwork, too. I have an obligation to tell the truth in the way that I know it and to make sure that people understand what it is that I'm talking about.
Sage: (35:35) Mmm.
Vicki: (35:35) And, and that is why I ha--, I provide those keys to the work so that people can read it and know what they're looking at and not have to guess.
Sage: (35:44) Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (35:44) It is why I do the kinds of deep dive into community oftentimes to get that information so that I'm correct in whatever it is that I'm putting out there. And it is why I do things like the Project Row House project, you know, where I--, it gave me an opportunity to really get to know the Houston community outside of the art community, cause, you know, my house had everything to do with interviewing the neighbors and, and the elders and, you know, finding out their stories of how they got there, into the third ward, and--. And those are the kinds of things that I get really charged up about.
Music Break: (36:21) “KiN” instrumental plays
Sage: (36:32) So one of the things that I appreciate about what you said about folks understanding your work is there's this really unfortunate, and unfortunate I also think is intentional, idea that work that is political is didactic. So folks are always like, No, I don't wanna be political in my work, cause, you know, I want folks to imagine and be free. And I'm like, I don't see--. Your work is beautiful, it's abstract, it's not didactic in any way. And you have a very clear intention for folks to understand it. Like, it's not also this thing of, like, well what did you get out of it? Like, did you just kind of wander through it? Like, no, there's, there's a political focus and intention to the work. There's a message that you are conveying through the work. It is broad and imaginative, but it is not lost, right.
Vicki: (37:21) Right.
Sage: (37:21) And I think you have--. I don't, I don't wanna say you've mastered that, but I think, also just listening to your lineage, you come from folks who understand that you can hold the complexity of that--
Vicki: (37:32) Right.
Sage: (37:32) --and have beautiful work.
Vicki: (37:34) Well, I have to say that the work has also gone through a metamorphosis over the years and over the decades. And if you saw my retrospective; you would, you would see that line where I started out in what I would call overtly political work.
Sage: (37:49) Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (37:51) And then when my mom was killed, and then when my children were born, I began to really, sort of, explore the notion of looking through these same kinds of issues, but through a, kind of, spiritual lens using African cosmology and ritual as the lens through which that work would be reinterpreted. But still talking about essentially the same issues. Cause I--, I was surprised when I saw the 40 years, and I was just like, well <Sage laughs> it was 30 years at the retrospective, but it was just, like, I've been talking about the same shit for a long time, but this is a different way of putting it. <both laugh>
Sage: (38:28) Nice.
Vicki: (38:28) Which is sad in one side--, cause when these--
Sage: (38:31) Yeah.
Vicki: (38:31)--young people were looking at my work from the seventies, and they were like, Oh, you were talking about police brutality back then? I was just like, Yeah, because it's been a part of our life forever.
Sage: (38:41)Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (38:42) Since we hit these shores. You know, that's nothing--, that's no new conversation. So, yeah. You know, I think that I am very interested in having people learn not just about the history that I put in the work, but also about the aesthetic elements that I utilize that are also important as far as the conversation is concerned. So when I have that Sankofa bird sitting up there in a piece, you know, it's not just to have a little piece of African sculpture, you know, to, sort of, set it all. It's because that particular African sculpture is about understanding history and understanding how history, you know, shapes your present and your future. So, those are the kinds of things that I hope that people walk away from the work looking not only at how beautiful it was. Cause I am, I am interested in it being beautiful.
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (39:38) I am. And well made. You know, that is, I'm very much about the craft of the, of the work, but I am equally [WORD UNCLEAR] more interested in people thinking that they wanna leave and do some more research. You know, they wanna look at it a little bit deeper, you know. So, when I did the pieces in the show at ALH of--, I reinterpreted 20 of Elizabeth's iconic prints and did my own take on those topics, cause they're--, all of her topics were absolutely relevant to today.
Sage: (40:14) Mm-mm.
Vicki: (40:14) Even though many of them were done in the thirties and the forties and fifties and what have you, they all were relevant to today. So I was able to take those topics and reinterpret them with a look at the 21st century. And it was interesting. I had some Texas Southern University students--. I did a talk to them in the gallery, and some of them were really just amazed at, you know, wow. So, all of this was, like, happening. I mean, it was, like, a light--, it was sort of like a window opening for them to understand their place in all of this conversation, and the work that they were doing, and the work that I'm doing, and the work that came before me. You know. All of it being connected in some way.
Sage: (41:00) I was talking with a friend of mine the other day about Stuart Hall, cultural theorist Stuart Hall, who says, "There is no genesis, only genealogy."
Vicki: (41:12) Mm-hmm. I agree. Well, in art school, I had a, a teacher that once said, There's nothing new in art. Just new ways of maybe exploring old things.
Sage: (41:21)Mmm.
Vicki: (41:21) And that's kind of true, you know. Well, it's not kinda--, it is true. You know, there's--there's very little that you--, I would call innovative from the standpoint of never been done. Now, there's some artists who wanna make you think that that's the case, <Sage laughs> but.
Sage: (41:34) Mmm.
Vicki: (41:34) Trust me when I tell you that's not the case. In the world that we live in, in America, where art is not respected in, on any level. I mean, we, we give lip service to it, but we don't respect artists. We don't respect the work they do. We, we love building facilities to accommodate art, but we don't really love the people who produce it. I think that, you know, it's, it's critical that we, where we can, you know, we provide those safe havens for artists to be able to do the work with truth and honesty, because it's not what this country really wants.
Sage: (42:12) Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (42:12) And it punishes those that decide to go against the grain and, you know, do what they wanna do and say what they need to say. It punishes those. I mean, Elizabeth couldn't come back to this country until it was the late seventies, and she'd been exiled since the fifties, all because of her refusing to be quiet and to tow the line, you know. And that's true of many of the artists who left and went abroad.
Sage: (42:44) Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. We are, we are sort of winding down, but I just have to ask, what's something that's a question that you're sitting with in front of you? Like, hmm, I'm still noodling around this.
Vicki: (42:59) I think the biggest question around for me is really one around, you know, where--, how, not where, do we get our hooks into the next generation in a way that makes them realize the severity of what is happening right now?
Sage: (43:22) Mmm.
Vicki: (43:22) Because I still see too many of them that don't seem to really grasp that we are, we are in a real perilous moment.
Sage: (43:36) Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (43:36) I mean now, America's been a perilous moment as far as I'm concerned, but. You know. And the only reason I say this without any naivete, because I know that we've had far worse times that we've lived through, but it's because there's so many who don't see it, who don't see the dangers because of the way, you know, mass media has created these illusions around who we are in this country. And for young Black people at this juncture to be saying things to me like, Oh no, that can't happen. And I'm going, You do realize they put the Japanese in a, in concentration camps, right? And they can do the same thing with us at any moment because those camps still exist. And they go, what camps? They don't even know about the McCarran Act. You know, they don't even know about the kinds of things that this country has done to ensure that when the time is right, if they have to, they can go round everybody up, you know. I sit with those questions all the time about how--, what is it gonna take for us to make them realize that it's their future that I'm most concerned about? Cause I'm--, you know, I'm on the other end of my life at this point, you know. I told the folks at ROOTS yesterday, I don't wanna live another 72 years <Sage laughs>, so I'm, I'm assuming, I'm assuming I'm at the end of my, my days, not the beginning.
Sage: (44:59) Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (45:00) But I worry a lot about the lack of knowledge that a lot of the younger people have about our history and the kinds of things. I mean, I'm talking about American history and the kinds of things that America will do--
Sage: Mm-hmm.
Vicki: (45:14) --with no shame. I mean, these women who--. I mean, I, I saw Roxane Gay had posted her commentaries, was like, It's time to scream. I said, No boo boo, the time to scream was decades ago, because that's when the Republicans were doing all of this strategizing and, you know, doing kinds of things that would get them to where they are today. Screaming at this point--. We're past screaming now. You know, now it's time to make sure that the organizing is happening in a way that we can at least maybe put a, a roadblock in some of these things that are happening. But it's way too late to just be screaming, in my view. So, that's a question I sit with all the time is, you know what, what's it gonna take? What am I--. What do I need to be doing? You know, who do I need to be aligning with on this deal? Cause, you know, I don't run a place with children anymore. You know, so I have to make sure that I find the children.
Sage: (46:09) As an artist, the arc of, from screaming to organizing feels really an important one to name, right, of how our work may scream. Talk about this. This is going on in the world. Are you aware? And then what is that, though? What is the connection of that to--
Vicki: (46:32) The work.
Sage: (46:32) --boots on the ground, what it is we're doing to transform and reshape the world we live in? And making that connection for both the, the beautiful, the important, the connected, the collaborative artistic expression that we are putting in the world to open up eyes, open up minds, and then move and shape the world so we can all live in our dignity and humanity.
Vicki: (46:57) Yes, yes, absolutely.
Sage: (46:59) It is a gift to sit with you, Mama Vicki.
Vicki: (47:03) Oh, well, I feel the same way, Sage. I wish we could see each other in person real soon
Sage: (47:09) Hopefully. Hopefully.
Vicki: (47:11) Yeah. Yeah. I'm--.
Sage: (47:11) We're gonna conjure it.
Vicki: (47:11) I told indee I'm gonna get a trip--. I'm gonna be doing a trip to New Orleans in the near future.
Sage: (47:17) Okay, well, there's a pot of gumbo on when you get here.
Vicki: (47:20) <laugh>. Always.
Sage: (47:22) That's what I like to tell people.
Vicki: (47:23) <laugh>. Excellent. Excellent. Well, I--, I'm thrilled to be able to talk with you this afternoon, and, you know, hopefully we can do this again.
Sage: (47:31) Absolutely. Thank you for listening to the Emerging Strategy Podcast. This podcast is produced by Mari Orozco, production coordination by Aliana Coello, transcription by Hannah Pepper-Cunningham. Music for the Emergent Strategy Podcast is provided by Hurray for the Riff Raff and their album, "Life on Earth." To support the ongoing work of the Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute, you can make a donation at www.alliedmedia.org/esii.