PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - EPISODE 020

INTERSECTING SKILLS WITH AMANDA DUDZIK

Please note: This transcript was created with the assistance of AI technology. While we strive for accuracy, the text may contain errors and should be verified against the original source for critical uses.

Annemie Tonken  00:00

Hey guys, I am so excited to share my conversation with Ian Palmer with you today. If you're familiar with Deanna and her work, you know that she is this incredibly artistic soul who describes herself as a seeker. And of course, if you're familiar with me, you know that I can be practical to a fault I, I sometimes suffer from some insecurity around the fact that I'm not more of an artist's artist. And our conversation today is really about the push and pull of that. And I don't want to get too much into it because you can just listen to the conversation. But because I never actually had yen mention her contact information at the end, I wanted to give you the resources where you can find out more about yen if you don't know about her already. Number one, you can go to her website, which is yen palmer.com. And if you want to find out more information about her two latest classes, they are called the now now and naked marketing you can find the links in the show notes to this show at this can't be that hard.com/podcast/zero to zero. So this is episode 20. So it's this can't be that hard.com/podcast/o Two O. With that I am going to let the show begin. I do want to give you a quick warning that there is some colorful language in this episode. So if you're listening with kids, Be forewarned,

Intro:

Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it. And I can show you how. Yan Palmer I am so excited to have you here.

02:03

I'm How are you today?

02:05

Yeah.

Annemie Tonken  02:08

Everybody is here at home. In their remote corners of the world, how have you been?

02:15

I have been so many things. I think that that's the safest way to answer that question for me, because it's been such a dance. I've been dancing with these moments of like, oh my God, what's happening with moments of absolute just inspiration and excitement for the world. For us emerging out of this in the world looking different than yet, which I haven't been stoked about how it's looked for a while. And but that with managing like, Okay, I'm here home with my kids, I want to be present with them. And okay, my business is also falling apart. And I have to reinvent my income. And I need to be present with that as well. So there's been there's been a lot of things.

Annemie Tonken  03:02

Yeah. And in order to be present with that, sometimes, at least for me, it's like, Okay, kids get out of I need some quiet and some brains.

03:14

Yeah, we have like, it looks like happy nature time, but sometimes for us, and I'm one of the very, very lucky people who can go outside right now and live. I am out and that lets me do that. But sometimes it looks like me locking the door and setting a timer and being like, you're not allowed in this house for an entire hour do not come back. If I see you you're losing a privilege. And they're like, Okay,

Annemie Tonken  03:38

yeah, as we record this, it is outside time on the schedule, which, thankfully, we've had really nice weather this spring and my kids have not had too many opportunities to be like, good, I can't. But it is it's like out you go. I don't care. Bring a book if you're bored. But

03:56

are you? Are you as I am.

Annemie Tonken  03:58

I'm not always great about sticking to it for myself, but I feel like scheduling has been the one way you know, and my kids are older. They're more like your kids ages. So I've got a 10 and a 14 year old but so I'm I feel very fortunate right now to have kids who can have some independence, but the but it's a mixed bag, right? They they are able to be independent, and yet if left unchecked, they are they are coming and pinging me physically 15 times an hour, Hey, is it possible for me to have a snack, Hey, I can't find the toilet paper, hey, you know, whatever the thing may be, and I can hardly get anything done. So the way that I have dealt with that is I have created this daily schedule for each of them where they know what they're supposed to be doing at any given time and that is like, but it's that is what we try. So

04:51

I know I totally relate like scheduling is not my innate spiritual gift as you but it's something that When I learned how to do it, it has been transformative for me, it's like that thing with boundaries with kids, if they don't have a boundary, then they actually, the chaos gets to be too much. And then they it's actually worse for them. Yeah, for me, it's like, me trying to teach these kids that I've like, let run wild in various ways over the years to now like respond to the schedule, and to actually like them squirm about it. But then at the end of the day, to see that they actually feel more kind of grounded and more. I don't know, I'm like, it's, it's strange to watch myself convert to scheduling is what I'm trying to tell you. I didn't see that common. But

Annemie Tonken  05:38

that's funny. Well, I actually have a version of that story, when Oliver was a newborn, I had this, oh, I'm just going to bring in, you know, bring a baby into the world. And it's just gonna, like, follow me around all the time. And I'm gonna put him on my back. And we're just, I was living in New York City at the time, like, he'll just go everywhere with me and do everything with me. And by the time he was six months old, I like something had to give the sleep schedule was terrible. I was co sleeping and like, there was no one was sleeping at any time. And I finally and I was just letting him lead everything. As a six month old, yeah, that makes perfect sense. It made sense to me.

06:18

charged for sure. Well,

Annemie Tonken  06:22

there's a balance to be struck anyway. And I, I can't remember I read a book, and I was talking to his pediatrician. And finally, I was like, I am gonna give putting a real schedule in place a shot and see if that helps. And it was like, magic. Within two weeks, our whole lives had just sort of come together. And it was all about like, I'm just going to create some structure. And then everything he just he was started sleeping through the night and Oh, man. So

06:48

irony, the beauty of like, Wait, creating structure will actually create more freedom.

06:54

Ah, yeah, totally. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  07:00

this, this, the scheduling structure that I use for my own time is, I learned from a woman who has a podcast, she's a life coach, and she has a podcast that I listened to. And she teaches this method where you brain dump everything at the beginning of the week, that's in your mind, of any kind of like, I have to change the light bulb in the bathroom, or whatever it is, all the way to your like big goals. And then you break all that down, and you put it all on a schedule, and then you throw away the list of things. So all of that stuff is time blocked out. And, and her thing is when she first tells people that, I mean, that's a very basic version of the of the thing. It's more complicated than my mouth.

07:45

But within because that's literally exactly what I do. Like, I've never heard this. Oh, it's exactly what I do. I start with a huge dump. And then I lock it into like, the days and the time slots. And so it's meant,

Annemie Tonken  07:56

yeah, yeah, yeah. So I'll send you this episode that she details this because it really changed the way that I do it. But her argument is people will say, like, Ah, I can't be, I can't be, you know, pinned into that kind of structure. And she was like, but what I have is freedom, because I am not beholden to this list at all times. And

08:20

also mental freedom, right? Because that's the thing that if, if it's not living on the page, it's living in our brain, and then we're carrying that around, like an anxiety, right? Like that little thing that's hanging over you that you know, is there but you're pretending to not know it's there? 100%

Annemie Tonken  08:36

Yeah, no, and I I, that's, I mean, I think I'm not unique in this way, that sort of thing will wake me up in the middle of the night, where it's just like, oh, I have all these things that need to get done. And so,

08:50

yeah, I like don't I like mess up my schedule all the time.

Annemie Tonken  08:59

I feel like I have to go to confession about to tell you how organized I am. In theory.

09:04

I know. Just in case people are getting the wrong idea. No. Yeah.

Annemie Tonken  09:12

I wish I could claim, you know what we're gonna do, we're gonna rewind just a little bit, we jumped right in which I knew we were going to do but I wanted to take a minute and have you I will, after we have our conversation. I will record a little intro to this. But I would love to have you introduce yourself because it is hard to do justice. Oh,

09:28

you did that's out there. That's one of the best parts about being on a podcast is that you don't have to, you know what the hardest thing for me in the world is to say anything that I am definitively down to my frickin name. I have like, because it's so hard. And the reason for that is because I believe so much and it's not about what we do. It's about how we do it. It's about how we are it's about our presence. And I know that we have to use all of these statements and labels and categorize categorizations and what We're going to make sense to people which I'm going to get to, but I need to state my principles and my philosophy. Please do it. Like my favorite. I wish I wish we could introduce ourselves in a way that just was like I am. I am. I'm what you see unfolding in front of you right now, because I think we're so complex. But some of the things I do, I'm an artist, I'm a photographer. I'm a teacher. I'm a writer and a poet and like, a wild woman and a mother. I have three beautiful children. We live in Utah. I, I think that's enough, right? Yeah. Yeah.

Annemie Tonken  10:42

Those are big important things. Um, yeah. And So walk me back a little bit to your beginnings in photography and how that became not just an avocation, but a vocation for you. Okay,

11:02

I want to add to the to my lists, too. I want to also say I'm a seeker. I'm a seeker that will tie into photography came about or maybe not, you know, how have you ever heard writers say that depending on when they tell a story or row a story, they would have told it a completely different way. I always feel that way when I'm answering questions. But the the myth of how I started my photography, business myth is in like the mythic realm of it is actually, and this is factually what happened. We were dead broke, we were dead broke. And my partner, my husband at the time, we're divorced. Now, we've been divorced for eight years. But he was at the end of his rope, because he was a musician. And we were like to pretty young, naive kids trying to like jump through the hoops of surviving and making a living in the world. But we were both artists and both like, had these ideals and these like purist like concepts, and he'd been having to like, not do anything creative and be in school full time and also work like a nine to five government job. And he basically just had a meltdown one night in bed and was like, I can't go to work tomorrow. And it was like, it sounds so dramatic. But it truly was this sort of Epiphany type moment where I was like,

12:24

it's my turn.

12:25

I'm like, it's my turn. Okay, I'm going to step up to the plate. What can I do? I'm a pretty good creative problem solver. I maybe knew one person who owned a photography business. I didn't even own a camera. But I was just like, I'm going to start a business. That is, you know, there's jokes. Lots of jokes in the photography world have like the low barrier of entry. And those jokes are true. Oh, yeah. Like I did, I did it in all of the ways. You know, that people will say that you shouldn't do it, which is, I put an ad on Craigslist before I even owned a camera. And it was very passionate, because we were at rock bottom. And when you're at rock bottom, you don't have anything to lose. So you're just like, I'm gonna just put it all out there. And I and I said, Are you tired of boring? JC Penney portraits, I will photograph you how your family really is hire me. And I told myself if people responded, I would go get a camera. And they did. And so then we used our tax return that just came in and I went and got the Canon Rebel and started taking pictures. So I think it's it's ironic, I feel like now in my career, I have an up a reputation for being so much about the art of photography and the art of business and the art of things. And it's ironic that I actually just jumped into being a photographer because

13:47

I need to cash. Yeah, but

13:51

the reason I have the confidence to do that is because I always think that art is also about a way of being a way of looking and noticing the world. And I like so many other people always had this kind of deep sense of the way I see the world has so much magic and beauty in it. I wish I could share it with people but I don't know how. And so that moment was like a perfect you know, convergence of forces that are like, okay, you can jump into this bigger attempt to like show the way you see the world and you can try to make money at the same time.

Annemie Tonken  14:35

Hang on, guys. I have a quick message for you. Did you know that this can't be that hard isn't the only podcast I host. Each month my marketing director Dana and I team up to bring you a fresh injection of marketing ideas and inspiration on our other podcast called the consistency club. The podcast is free and available to any photographer looking to uplevel their marketing game, or you can take it one step further and join the consistency club where you get the extended version of the podcast along with monthly email and social media templates, bonus trainings, and special access to the live marketing events we host twice a year. If you're interested in tuning in, you can search for and subscribe to the consistency club. Wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to join us in the membership, you can visit go dot this can't be that hard.com/club to sign up. Well, you know, it's an interesting thing, because I feel like you're right. That is, many of us. Most of us, I think fall into photography as a business sideways.

15:41

Yeah, oh, God,

Annemie Tonken  15:42

here I am running a business. I have no idea what I'm doing. And I think however, you end up falling into that, you know, there are very few people. I and it's a good thing that that's how we get into it. Because otherwise no one would do it. Because no one would sit down being like, I'm gonna go into business for myself. What could I possibly do? I know what I'll do. I'll take pictures and beg people for money for them. That it's not a good business plan. But the but I think yeah, it is the the that falling sideways into it part of that as an artistic X. Experience in and of itself. It's that vulnerability. It's that putting yourself out there and like making that leap. But then finding yourself a good landing spot is a whole new adventure, creative and otherwise,

16:30

quote, unquote, journey.

Annemie Tonken  16:32

It's a journey. Yeah, and it is not the destination. If we're gonna sit here and quote Calvin and Hobbes, but yeah, well, and so that was, I think you've been in business longer than I have, like, What did you say 14 ish years ago?

16:54

Almost 13.

16:55

Okay.

16:56

I can always tell because it was when my second daughter was three months old. And she Yeah, 18. Now,

Annemie Tonken  17:04

I was having a conversation with somebody recently about and the reason I say this is because you said you placed an ad on Craigslist, which at the time, I guess you could still post photos. Did you even put photos with that ad?

17:17

I don't think so.

Annemie Tonken  17:19

I mean, can you imagine I remember when I got married, which was in 2004. And this was before, I think the knot was like a brand new thing. But there was so little there were very few online resources for wedding planning. And, and I remember at some point, it occurred to me that oh, yeah, we should hire a photographer like this whole different lifetimes. And, and we hired a friend of a friend who was like, oh, yeah, I'm into photography. And that was it. I never saw any of the work and like, we got what we paid for it pretty much, but but

17:57

I was that person. In your lady? Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  18:02

that would have been different. I'm going to tell you right now. But, um, but yeah, it is. I just, I Oh, back to what I was saying that, like, I feel like the entry into photography now. I mean, it's, the landscape is so different, right? There's so many photographers, it's so competitive. That concept of like, Hey, I'm gonna take pictures of your family that, you know, look like you feel or whatever. That's now you have to come up with some crazy thing to say to stand out from a crowd, right?

18:34

Like, that is like now a platitude. We know very, very well. And it's right on enough to, to Yeah, load a bit.

Annemie Tonken  18:43

I yeah, I'm glad I got into it when I did.

18:49

I remember.

18:52

I was so naive, and just had just, you know, bless me for being so naive, because I wouldn't have tried half of the things that I tried, because I would have known better and I would have been so afraid that I would look stupid, but one of the things I did I remember Googling, okay, who is like the established photographer doing what it looks like I'm trying to do, and won't they want to give me all their information. And so I emailed them and was like, new photographer on the scene. How do you mark it? Like basically was like, How do I get people to know this about me? Yeah. And she was very gracious and was like, Okay, well, that's a longer conversation. But here's a place you can go to learn and she sent me to a forum. Yeah, then it was like, then it was baptism by fire into the world of whole this is like actually how to do this in a serious way. Maybe even too serious for me. I was like, you can't see me. So I guess the fact that I'm making really hunched shoulders is not effective at all.

Annemie Tonken  20:00

hiding in the corner? Well, I am yeah. But I also think it's so important to have that period of naivete at the, in the beginning to your point because, you know, it's like a baby, being willing to butcher language as they try and being willing to fall and fall and fall as they're trying to learn to walk. You know, when, as adults when we try and pick up a new language, and we're embarrassed about our like butchery of grammar, and syntax, and vocabulary, and accent, and all those things, we hamper ourselves so much. So.

20:35

And I can't tell you how many people I've other photographers and artists I've talked to who have reminisce and been this soldier for that period of being naive, but not because of that part. But because of the passion. And because 100 permission that they were allowing themselves to lead with that passion and how it took them into taking risks that they don't, they no longer feel bold enough to take because they know better. And ironically, those risks are so often the things that lead to our breakthrough, right? Like our growth exists outside of our comfort zone. So that's something I try to remember even as I like, laugh and make fun of and self deprecate. Like my younger self is that like, know, that willingness to like to look stupid, and to just lead with your excitement and love of something is powerful. Really, it is.

Annemie Tonken  21:32

And it's contagious. I think that that's inspiring to people on both sides of the of the lens. Yeah, and that is for me, for sure. The thing when I look back at my old you know, my early work, the photography itself, I see errors galore and terrible editing because the early 2000s Were not a good time for that, but we'll blame it on

22:00

but the Edit was my art I was like, you've never seen anyone saturate colors like this before. Just like

Annemie Tonken  22:08

a scratch filter is going to blow your mind

22:11

in line for this this.

Annemie Tonken  22:15

Oh, god, yeah. So anyway, but I see you know, the the feeling behind the photos in a way that I you know, I have to really struggled to reconnect with these days, because it is now it's like, so much. It's a job. I mean, our work is a job. And certain days, like some days you feel the passion and some days, you don't want to get up and go to work. Just like any other jobs

22:42

like any other job. That is true. Well, tell

Annemie Tonken  22:45

me a little bit about that for you as far as once things started to pick up. And then once you got to a place where it was that critical mass, because I do feel like most people have that turning point in their career where it's like, okay, I have to make this work on a more. I have to make this more sustainable and profitable, because those are two of my big pillars here on this podcast. So we're going to talk about profitability and sustainability a little bit. But

23:16

yeah, buzz words is the sustainability one. And that one took me like, I was on a hard learning curve, I was operating my business because I entered it from a place of survival. And because my superpower and the thing that did seem to work for me for so many years, was that passion and how contagious it was, was that wholeheartedness you know, like, that's a very beautiful thing about my character. But every force needs a balance, right? Like nature will always exact the balance of things. And so just passion, just that fire isn't sustainable, if not balanced by structure and profitability. But for me it I mean, I don't think I learned that lesson. And it's been I've it's only been in the last three years. I mean, I knew it, it was like that thing we talked about earlier that was hanging over in the back of my head, but like, I was living from like job to job, you know, empty bank account to like, big filling it up with a chunk. And eventually that anxiety of of me, realizing that there were pieces of my business that I was consciously choosing to be in denial about that, like it was floating itself, but the anxiety of the denial was like rising and rising and rising, and it hit a breaking point and it hit a breaking point at the same time that a lot of other things in my life. I hit a breaking point. And partially because I can I'm naturally a little bit of an extremist, shocking, I stopped and I pause everything Because by the time I hit that breaking point, some of my poor business practices had been going on for so long that there was so much backlog, right? There's so much that needed to get untangled and righted. And there needed to be a reconciliation. Right? Yeah, in order to even untangle that I had to create enough space to sort of pause so that I could really, really look at it. And that was about three years ago, I don't know, I'm really bad at timeline, so I might be butchering it. And that really helped shift me to one appreciating business in a new way. And using that passion to fall in love with business to, to understand that this is a creative endeavor, just as much as the art of photography is, and that to bring business in, in order to be sustainable in order to not frickin lose my mind with anxiety, that I could fall in love with a business, I could bring it into my life as an art form. And I didn't have to divorce my passion to do that. I didn't have to sell out and to do that I could actually grow big enough to hold space for both those things. I don't know, answers your question. But

Annemie Tonken  26:16

the it's a polyamorous sort of.

26:21

Form? That's right.

Annemie Tonken  26:23

No, the I absolutely believe it. And I, I feel that way. And I told you this. And part of the reason that I asked you on the podcast was this conversation that we had at the end of the family narrative. And this year was the first time that no, that's not true. I had met you in person years ago, but very briefly, and not like just at a in passing. And you have always come across as this very much like an artist first and you speak your heart and all this stuff. And that is something that I really I struggle with a wall a lot because I you know, I don't know, it's pretty classic, like first child, really good grades, and like type A and all this stuff in high achiever, whatever, and trying to reconcile that. And I've, this is not a secret, really. But I have like something of impostor syndrome many years in as a photographer, because of the just the artist thing. It's like I'm too analytical and intellectual about it. And then when I get around people who are such art hearted people and sort of that comes first, I get that feeling of insecurity, despite the fact that like, I've been in business for a long time, my clients love my work, I can objectively look at me like, it's, you know, I'm fine, what's good. So, but I'm just sort of pulling out there, like, I can rationalize, or I can tell you how I feel right? We all have that duality. And, and so my impression had always been like, Yun Palmer and I, she's great. I love her. I love her work. We're very different people. And I'm sure that's true in many ways, but, but this conversation that we had, at the end of the family narrative was so had, I mean, in my heart is always so open at the end of that conference, because I just always feel so filled up in so many ways. But but the Yeah, the conversation that we had about that this exact thing about, like having to marry these two things, in our businesses, for it to work. I was like, wow, we came at this from completely different sides. Because I talked about at the beginning of my you know, starting my business, whatever, I had somebody a mentor, tell me, you need to focus as much on the business as you do on the photography, because I was coming from health care, so I really didn't know anything about business. And, and I just, like, took that and went with it. I was like, okay, and I took business classes while I was taking photography classes. And I just sort of focused on both of those things. And in retrospect, and knowing now, you know, hundreds and hundreds of photographers over the years that I've talked to how unusual that story is, and how lucky I was to have sort of sidestepped a whole lot of right, I need plenty of mistakes, but I also saved myself a lot of trouble over the years. Which is sort of now that gospel that I preached, you can do this you can you can do that without having to sacrifice your artistic passion. Anyway, I just thought it was such a like an eye opening moment for me and I knew that my listeners would agree so it's

29:55

it's music to my ears. Anytime Anytime we can make greater space for the both and as opposed to the either or is Yeah, that's one of my overarching passions in life as it relates to art as it relates to parenting as it relates to business is like, Oh, if only we can understand the complexity and the, the ver the variety of each of us and stop hammering ourselves to fitting into just one category or the other. We could understand each other and work together and better connect with each other so much better. Yeah, I love that. I love that you share that. And I love that we got to have that moment of that kind of like, oh, like we're different. But also, yeah, opposite thing is the thing that makes us the same. And then yeah, you want to do you want to learn a really big word that you'll forget right after the podcast. But yeah, let's do it up right before this because I knew we were going to be talking about this. I don't even know how to say it. I have to read it off of my phone. Okay, it is called. And then to Dromio

Annemie Tonken  31:07

I'm gonna this is gonna be the title of the podcast.

31:11

And then to drown meow. I'm so young kind of Carl Jung, the psychologist kind of popularized the concept. But it's actually way way, way older than Carl Jung. It's from a philosopher, pre Socratic Greek philosopher Heraclitus. But basically, it's the idea that all is flux, nothing is still everything changes. And anytime we go in one direction really, really strongly, we are going to ultimately find that the seeming opposite of that direction is going to eventually rise. So that's what I see as happening to both of us that perhaps you came in from this business direction. I came in from this like creative direction. But those other forces, the business person was in me, the artist was always in you, we were just insecure about it. So we didn't look at it. But you know, what's really cool is that there's this principle that even when we don't look at something, we might repress it. It's, it's each ball, you try to press underwater, it's gonna shoot up at some point, and you're gonna have to look at it. Yeah.

Annemie Tonken  32:26

It's sort of the the pendulum to sort of, you know, Heading, Heading back and forth and finding that stability or stasis. I shouldn't say stasis. I do. I appreciate the the ebb and the flow. And I actually feel like that is what keeps me going. I think most creatives are inherently short. What's the word like short attention span, like, and I it's not even that I'm happy to go deep on certain things. But it's, but I do find myself needing to constantly like, I have to have a new idea I have to chase, there was a woman that I went to college with, she was on my freshman hall. And I remember it like the very first time I met her, she, you know, you talk about what are you going to study? And she was like, I'm a biomedical engineering major. And I was like, Oh, I don't even know what that is. And, and she sure as can be like, that was what she graduated with. I'm still friends with her on social media. That is what she does, like that has just been her entire life, which I think is sort of engineering typical, that you know, you know what you're going to do, and you just do that thing. That is not me. And I've had, you know, the the crazy career paths that show for it. But I feel like we all have this kind of bright, shiny, shiny object syndrome to a certain degree. And so I feel like being able to tap into the artistic side for a while. And then if that starts to feel like it's not enough, you know, moving in and focusing on the business side of it, there's creativity to be found in so many areas.

34:07

Yeah, and let's let us get rid of the fluffy really shallow concepts of what it means to be an artist and what it means to be a business person. Right? Because I feel like we're operating from very, like, base level, narrow stereotypes of those things. Yeah. Is this true? No. When I hear you say that you because of your analytical mind, and other qualities it made you feel like you had impostor syndrome about being an artist. I'm like, Are you joking me? Do you know how many anal retentive artists there are with like, that their analytical mind is the thing that allowed them to construct these elaborate radical worlds of art that have like stood the test of time and changed our entire world. I'm like you only you thought that because we perpetuate this very, like, weird, shallow stereotype of like, it's like the romanticized idea of an artist. And it's kind of Yeah, it's kind of bullshit.

Annemie Tonken  35:10

That's probable shit. No, I totally agree. And that I mean, that's on me like that is I mean, it's also on our society. But it's, well, I'm saying what that it's a sort of a naive viewpoint of that will say,

35:23

with business that if you're into business, that you're boring, or you're good at business, because you're not good at art, or that to be a business owner means that you're good at like, the logical order stuff. And that means that you must not have like an energetic, interesting, fascinating personality, that it drives me crazy, because I want to, I want to learn from people who are who are of the intelligence level that they understand that every one of these things that we divide at their highest level, at the highest level of science at the highest level of literature at the highest level of art, there is a convergence, and it becomes that at the highest and deepest level. It's all interconnected. Yeah, affecting and ebbing and flowing together. So yeah, yeah.

Annemie Tonken  36:14

Very cool. Um, yeah, I do. Feel like that concept of art requiring boundaries is such a Yeah, we talked about that, too. And it for whatever reason, what you just said just jogged me about that, but about how it's almost like, when there are infinite possibilities, it's impossible to move forward. And when there are constraints. And so for me, when it comes to business, you know, it's like, I have to make a certain amount of money, how is that going to? How is that going to work? How am I going to make that work? Or, you know, there's only so many hours in the day or in my work week? And how can I, how can I build this out in that way? And that it's like a puzzle, it is

37:05

a puzzle, and what creativity, what we know about creativity is it loves the challenge. It loves the restriction, that's actually when creativity gets its chance to shine. And rather than interpreting the challenges that defeat it saying, How can we think about this? In a way no one has thought about it up to now and create a solution which is among the most beautiful creative acts?

37:29

In my Yeah. So

Annemie Tonken  37:33

tell me about that, as it pertains to your art and your business? Where How do you divide those things up? Where

37:42

shall I begin, I, I do think where division is necessary, is to understand the pieces before we understand how all of these pieces relate to each other, we have to understand how they function and exist separate, right? So being able to kind of regard yourself and ask and take an inventory. Okay, what does my artists self need to feel nourished right now, what is my creative self need, they're getting hungry, they haven't been fed for a little while. And then realizing that it's no one's job to feed that self. Besides yours, it's your job to do that. Same with business, like being able to take inventory and be like, Okay, where's my business hungry? Where's, where's that piece of me, that needs security, that craves the sustainability that craves some amount of structure so that I don't feel like I'm operating by the seat of my pants every day of my life. Write that piece of me need right now. And then when you can carry that inquiry and look at the problem in front of you, you now have a frame of thinking where you can say how can I solve this problem and feed all of these various pieces in that art I know are living inside of me. But so often these pieces starve themselves out because of our narrow way of regarding ourselves and and denying that no, there's a piece in me that needs that and wants that. For instance, with like the quarantine with the pandemic, right. It hits I mean, there's it's really difficult thing to talk about because everybody experiences it in so many layers of awareness. privilege, like my pandemic is so different than anybody else's pandemic and yours and so, in a lot of ways my experience of the pandemic is extremely privileged. I have a safe house with nobody here that is hurting me in my house that I'm staying home with. I have access to nature. In other ways it's incredibly challenging my income is based in travel is based in something that and for the unforeseen future my x So that is cut off. Right? Now we have that conundrum. Now we have that creative challenge. I'm sitting here like, okay, how can I, well not like, be able to not feed my kids. But also try to create a solution that makes money in a way that doesn't reinforce systems that I think are broken, that nourishes the artist in me, that nourishes this other piece in me this, this, this caretaker piece that really, really sees the pain that's being revealed and what's happening and really, really wants to share my experience in a way that can help and ease that pain. How can I create a solution that responds to all of those things? Yeah, and, and when you find something that solves every one of those problems, that's like a, that's like a homerun, that happens a few times in a lifetime, it you, it usually takes a little bit more diversity in your solution in order to fit all the pieces. But one of the things is that I did, I started a class that we've really, really low, that we open not just because I have a strong element of teaching in my business, that's where also I get a lot of my income. So I was like, okay, I can try to hold on to that piece. But I can make it available not just to photographers, I can make it available to everyone. And I can use it to share practices that during the quarantine because of how challenging and because of how much people are being traumatized by the amount of loss that's happening, I can help put out some skills that can help them navigate their experience and create a sense of community in a really isolated time. So yes, that satisfied the creative in me that wanted to come up with something, but it also satisfied the caretaker, and I priced it at a price point where it'll and made it available to a larger number of people. So it made enough money that I'm not bankrupt for another month. You know what I mean? Like, it's like, that's, yeah, that's, I think that answers your question. Absolutely.

Annemie Tonken  42:23

Yeah, and I think, I think that it's important for, you know, I have a wide ranging audience, and some people are pretty new. And there are a lot of people who have been in business for a long time. But one of the things that I talk about, I teach about pricing, and you know, structuring things in a, in a, in a way that is profitable, and people get, oftentimes when they're looking at their numbers for the first time, and really looking at their needs, and all that sort of stuff, they come to a number that they feel really uncomfortable with about what they need to charge. And my response is always look, great. Now you have that number. And you understand that is not to say that you're instantly going to be able to fill the number of sessions that you would need to get at that number. But better to price yourself there and get fewer and supplement somewhere else. Yes. And the other side of that arch is if you start out and let's say that you take a job, making coffee, or whatever it is, you know, to supplement your photography income while you're building your client base, there comes a time in most photographers trajectory over the years, where they don't want to fill their entire calendar with as many sessions as they could possibly take on. And there is some kind of ceiling for their market about what they can charge. So then it's like, if you think about throwing a ball in the air, like at the top of the parabola, then you're coming down and it's like, okay, I want to balance my income with something else. And so most photographers who have been around for a while, whether it's teaching, or whether it is I mean, they're all kinds of different things, but diversifying your income is definitely a piece of the puzzle at all times of an artist's career. I think I

44:15

right. I couldn't agree with you more. And I it connects to what I was saying about like, you need to know what's hungry and what you need to feed. Yeah, and because I think that there's so much rhetoric about like, you know, once I once I put that price point on my art, it stopped being art for me and then you build up this resentment for like the people that you're supposed to be serving in business and like all of this, like back and forth. And understanding like, no, no, which pieces of your business are creating an income stream that you can show up that it doesn't like, you don't show up with this creative entitlement of like, this is my art and this is my life. Great work and contribution to the world, but you're showing up and you're working hard because you need that stream of income, right? In order for you to show up to those beautiful occasions where you do get to fully embrace your art that you can do so with knowing that your sustainability pieces cover like your security pieces covered and and also here we can like set ourselves free a little bit and nourish the artists peace. Yeah, save some save some like inner war battle, but I versifying income streams is is like the path to do that. And it's not. Yeah, there's so much opportunity in it that I would wish for photographers that they would allow themselves to explore.

Annemie Tonken  45:44

Yeah, I mean, I think it's an I think it's, it can be hard to wrap your head around it. Being an entrepreneur is hard. It's awesome. But it is Ditcher does have a lot of like, well, where is the? Where is the mile marker on this particular hike? Like, I can't know.

46:01

Have you seen the meme that's like, do what you love. And you'll never know. It's Adam Gant, I think is the artist, but it's like, do what you love. And you'll never work a day in your life. But he crosses it out. And it's like, do what you love. And you'll work like super fucking every single minute of your life and have no boundaries. You know, like, yeah, I can tell you like the life of the entrepreneurs. Sometimes. The red

Annemie Tonken  46:24

and blue crayon really? Underscore. Yeah, I love that. It's totally true. And yet it's I wouldn't trade it for the world. Like, I feel like it's such a just gives you so much. It gives me so much energy. Yeah,

46:38

and I wouldn't. I like this idea that we want to trade our troubles for anybody else's troubles. We all love to like, can we swear on the podcast? I don't know. Yeah, we all love to bitch and moan about the things that are hard in our particular field. But at the end of the day, like, Would you really try that in for like the nine to five? Do you think what do you think? Um, I'm still a little obsessed, though, like, the creative problem solver in me is like, we don't have to lose our lives to our entrepreneurship like, because I'm a recent convert to the beauty of boundaries. I'm particularly passionate about it. And I'm like, yeah, there's a way for us to work smarter, and mindfully, instead of harder, and instead of wanting to kill yourself, at the end of the day, because you're so exhausted, and it never stops. There's a way we're going to find that way to gather everybody join hands.

Annemie Tonken  47:33

So the book I'm reading right now is called rocket fuel. And because I'm listening to it, I can't tell you who it's by. But it's business book, I'm sure there's only one of them. That's called that. And the concept here is that it at the head of a business. And they're talking about like big business, the business. There is a visionary and an integrator. And so typically, that would be like a CEO and a CEO or like a CEO and a president or something. But the visionary is the one with the ideas and sort of the hot mile high view of what you know what we're going to do. And this is the direction we're going to head and whatever. And the integrator in a functional business is the person who figures out how to make that work, and then puts those like structures in place and like runs, you know, this is how it's that you're responsible for this. And you're responsible for this. And they're the sounding board for the visionary. And they say that does not this new idea is out of alignment. I want an integrator in my life

48:36

has one, I have a couple this concept of integrator is also changed my life. My assistant is very much my integrator, her name is awesome, Dana, everybody should have one. But also on recent projects, I've been partnering with people with that skill set for that reason, because if I'm playing to my strengths, it is much more than like, I will have all the exciting ideas, which I feel like such a schmuck about sometimes. But whatever I am, what I am, and I'm proud of, yeah, I can actually do the other part too. It's just not where it's just we all have a limited amount of time in the day. And because you're good at some pieces, doing them all is not always time effective. So partnering with people, which I bet you would have a lot to say about as us. You've partnered with people that complement your skill set that can be the integrator and the ring the structure. Because man, it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks, let me tell you, maybe totally

Annemie Tonken  49:36

and that's especially because photography has that low barrier to entry and everybody goes into it on their own and everything else like we don't even consider those are for many of us. They're not even worlds that we have you ever explored. So then it just seems so like but I'm rolling in this direction. Now I'll have to stop and like roll and learn a new thing and it just seems so hard.

49:57

And also like We're looking around and kind of thinking like, because imposter syndrome is not a unique human experience pretty much every human experiences imposter syndrome. So we're looking around thinking that everyone somehow knows how to do it. But, but nobody really does. Like everybody is just in that same place of like, we're the blind leading the blind, like, that's humanity. That's what it is to be alive. You know? And yeah. And so, what I would say to people who it is new and overwhelming is like, remind yourself if you feel like an impostor, just remind yourself everybody else is to, like, let's just be compassionate and laugh about it together.

Annemie Tonken  50:41

Yeah, because I don't know if you've had that conversation with your daughter yet. Oliver and I have had a few conversations now. He's 14. And about how, and especially of course, for them, they're teenagers and these kids that they look up to who are maybe six months older than them or a year older. I'm like you, you don't have any idea any more than you do. And truly, neither do I. We're all flying by the seat.

51:11

I know. Oh, and isn't that that? Okay? Did you have the moment where your 14 year old realize because if that was true that then they looked at you and then they realize you're doing it too? You just you're you're flying by the seat of your bands? Oh, my God. And I'm like, Yeah, hmm. With a few

Annemie Tonken  51:29

more skills and a few more battle scars on board. But yeah, totally. But

51:34

I think if that's the human experience that we have, especially that rite of passage that is so ripe and tender at that age 13 and 14, then it means that there's a lesson in that absolute self doubt that is valuable that we need. Yeah, right. And so we could spend our time feeling really, really shitty about it. Or we could be like, it's okay to just feel like crap about this. And just, you know, and it's even when we can't feel it teaching us whatever it is. It needs to teach us it's doing some work on yeah, I've got some invaluable lessons from those years, I would much rather forget.

52:16

Yeah, can't go around. Gotta go through it.

Annemie Tonken  52:22

Um, well, it has been no surprise to be such a lovely time chatting with you. I was thinking about it when I was getting ready to, to for this call. I was like, one of the many things that we have in common is one of our names because I grew up as Anna. My, like, My full name is on me, but my parents to this day call me Anna and well,

52:48

can you give me permission to be really cheesy for a second? Sure. Okay. Because I experienced the world so much and metaphor I'm seeing the paradox of us being the seeming opposites. You're literally wearing black. I'm literally wearing white. And at our core, we find out that we both grew up even by the same name. I know she's really beautiful. Like I'm 100% cheesy, and I love it. I'm deeply satisfied. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  53:18

yeah, yeah, me too, actually. And lots of metaphors on this show. People know me for my metaphors. Cheesy ones, too.

53:28

I could argue with you all day about how you are actually so ridiculously artistic. And I think you know that now. But like your ability for metaphor and language being one of the ways that is really impressive to me. I always like you say words. Would you say today?

53:44

puram? Oh, parabola parabola,

53:48

which is? It's also like, like it comes out of your mouth like a party for what? And also who says parabola? Do you ever do you have like a an app? A vocabulary app? What are the secret? No, I

Annemie Tonken  54:04

was the dork who just spent my entire childhood reading. So you

54:08

know, to me to me, too. Yeah, Anna.

Annemie Tonken  54:15

I love it. Well, Yann, thank you so so much for coming on the show. I hope that the rest of your period of home boundedness is full of all kinds of surprise and delight.

54:29

But it will be thank you so much for having me. It was

54:33

my pleasure. I'm gonna hang up.

Annemie Tonken  54:35

Outro:

Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you liked the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better. Share the love by leaving a review on iTunes. and as always thanks so much for joining me I hope you have a fantastic week