BEMA 117: Jesus Resorts to Name Calling
Transcription Status
21 Aug 23 — Initial public release
18 May 23 — Transcript approved for release
Jesus Resorts to Name Calling
Brent Billings: This is The BEMA Podcast with Marty Solomon. I’m his co-host Brent Billings. Today, we talk about Jesus’s critique of rabbinic traditions and the surprise he encounters in the region of Phoenicia.
Marty Solomon: Back from two episodes ago, we have Dr. Gambino with us again.
Brent: Dr. Christopher Gambino.
Dr. Christopher Gambino: Hello.
Brent: Hello.
Chris: Thanks for having me.
Marty: Good stuff. Mr. Billings, Every Verse™, so we need to pick up in Matthew 15:1.
Brent: Then some Pharisees and teachers of the law came to Jesus from Jerusalem and asked—is that important that they came from Jerusalem?
Marty: Good question.
Brent: Obviously, it’s important, but what does that say?
Marty: Pharisees and teachers of the law from Jerusalem are maybe—I don’t know if we can assume this—this is such a good question to start off the podcast.
Brent: Were they coming off of like a big council?
Marty: Not necessarily.
Brent: “What are we going to do about this Jesus guy” thing?
Marty: Potentially—the thing I’m going to wrestle with is I’m going to assume they live there and that means they’re not Galilean Pharisees, which means they’re going to be more apt to align with, not the Sadducee worldview, but they’re going to be more Judean, so instead of like backwoods, charismatic, hillbilly Galileans—and it’s so hard to make these parallels because it doesn’t mean they’re not educated when I say that. The Pharisees in Galilee were unbelievably devoted and unbelievably educated—Capernaum, come on—but these are a different, sophisticated Judaism, perhaps, which seems to fit the context here.
Brent: All right, so they ask, “Why do your disciples break the tradition of the elders? They don’t wash their hands before they eat.”
Marty: Important to note, what do they call it? They break the what?
Brent: The tradition of the elders.
Marty: The tradition of the elders. So does Torah tell us we have to wash our hands before we eat?
Brent: It doesn’t seem like it.
Marty: It doesn’t seem like it. This is what we might call later. It’s not truly this yet, but it is being formed at this point in Jesus’s day. What they’re going to end up calling halakha. Halakha is the walk—that’s what it means. It’s the way that you walk, and they use that term to reference the Rabbinic rulings and the Rabbinic traditions of what does it look like to live out Torah? We’ve talked about, I believe before, the fence, Brent. We’ve talked about that before, right, the fence that surrounds the 613?
Brent: Yes.
Marty: That fence, which ends up becoming the Mishnah, which ends up becoming the Talmud that Chris referenced a couple of episodes ago, that Babylonian or Jerusalem Talmud, that is your larger fence. That is going to be the canonized version of the tradition of the elders, so to speak. That’s somewhat oversimplified, but for our listeners’ sake, that will probably do. They’re saying, “Hey, we’ve decided that we’re supposed to wash our hands. Why don’t you guys wash your hands like we have decided we’re all supposed to wash our hands?” Go ahead.
Brent: Jesus replied, “Why do you break the command of God for the sake of your tradition?”
Marty: Snap. Okay, keep going.
Brent: “For God said honor your father and mother and anyone who curses their father or mother is to be put to death, but you say that if anyone declares that what might have been used to help their father or mother is devoted to God, they are not to honor their father or mother with it. Thus you nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition.”
Marty: Now this is important to me as a Torah-observant Jew who also follows Jesus. That can be a confusing thing for everybody from Messianic Jews to Orthodox Jews that I might meet because everybody can’t figure out why Marty doesn’t do this or do that when he follows his Torah. Part of that is because as I read my Jesus, Jesus is my Rabbi, Jesus is where my buck stops as a Jesus follower. I’m going to interpret my Judaism through my Jesus, I’m not going to interpret my Jesus through Rambam later. I’m going to interpret mine and that’s going to rub Orthodox Judaism the wrong way today, and I try to honor that and respect that and not be obnoxious with that.
As I read about my Jesus, one of the things I find Jesus doing is thinking critically about those rulings. He doesn’t just follow them because the whole community is. Now, that’s not to say that Jesus never follows. I would assume that Jesus follows halakha. In fact, I would even assume that Jesus and his disciples wash their hands most of the time. They probably just aren’t following all the dotting the Is and crossing the Ts or whatever it is that they’re doing, or maybe they don’t do it at certain times to make a point.
It could have more intentionality to it, but Jesus seems to look at the traditions and the rulings of the elders and say, “Listen, sometimes you guys are making decisions and rulings about our behavior that aren’t aligned with what Moses taught us in Torah, and when they don’t align with the written word, the written Revelation, the written Torah, the books of Moses, I ain’t doing it.” That has always informed me a little bit. I am going to think critically about the Halakha that I follow as a Jewish believer myself. This is one of those passages that I go to and Jesus critiques them quite heavily by saying, “You’ve actually used your traditions to get around what is at times the very heart of Torah.”
Of course, I’m sure we don’t do this much today, Mr. Gambino, in our church system today. We never come up with loopholes. I’m prodding right now, I’m trying to promote.
Chris: Yes, you should have laid these out two episodes ago and I would’ve jumped when we were talking about people’s reactions to Jesus’s mic drop.
Marty: This is relevant material, I think. Let’s go ahead, Brent, pick up where you left off.
Brent: “You nullify the word of God for the sake of your tradition, you hypocrites. Isaiah was right when he prophesied about you. These people honor me with their lips, but their hearts are far from me. They worship me in vain, their teachings are merely human rules.”
Marty: Which I love because he then goes to the text to critique the way that they engage the Text. This is so good. I just love that, so Rabbinic of him.
Chris: Yes, and that if we jump back to that, I think the point being is the traditions, and then Jesus goes straight to Exodus. Matthew is quoting Jesus pulling from the whole section of laws. There’s a particular law Jesus is talking about here regarding the father and mother, but this is a whole Torah portion that is about the laws that come right after the commandments come down from Sinai.
Marty: Are you telling me it’s in the Text?
Chris: I’m telling you this is in the Text.
Marty: Alright, keep going then, I like this.
Chris: You got footnotes, but if you don’t have footnotes, Jesus is quoting out of Exodus 21, and we’ve got two portions here, so we’ve got Exodus 21:15 and Exodus 21:17. In 15, “whoever strikes his father or his mother must be put to death.” Then there’s this little thing in between about a kidnapping. Then he goes to “whoever curses his father or mother must be put to death.”
Marty: Oh my goodness, this is fantastic.
Chris: This whole section 21:4–24 is laws. The interesting thing I find is that Jesus points back to laws about people. If I read the subtext or if I read the subtitles in my Text, we got laws about personal injury, we got laws about theft, crops, personal property, the vulnerable, and all these laws about people. Whereas the traditions that he’s calling out here are really about your own little thing, not so much how to protect people.
Marty: That may be slightly relevant for the world you and I live in today like ‘adventures and missing the point’ type. We just love to come up with all kinds of things that we deem as incredibly important, and in the meantime or along the way just trample over people. It fits everything that we learned earlier, the Sermon on the Mount, all of that. Jesus agenda stuff.
Chris: I think the law sometimes is hard when you engage folks that are Jesus followers. The law becomes this really sticky thing. I’ve been following some folks, some Rabbis that talk about it in a way that invites a different understanding of it. The law section that Jesus is quoting here is coming right after those 10 commandments come. We’re talking about in Exodus 20, and they reference the laws as being this ability to comment and unpack those commandments. We got commandments that most of us know really well, those 10, and then these laws they cite as being commentary on those commandments.
The reason being is they suggest that this whole thing, all these laws are stories, so the stories of the Torah become laws. There’s a whole lot of questions to ask yourself then about what this whole section of law is, where has it happened before, and what is it trying to reference, and then when we jump all the way into Matthew, what is Jesus trying to get these people to understand?
Marty: That verse that lies in the middle, is there anything particularly important about the kidnapping verse that lies in the middle of those two references that Jesus quotes? Any relevance to this teaching here?
Chris: There was some Rabbinic commentary on why there’d be these two verses out of order. If I recall, it almost has to do with the way that we are engaging and treating our mother and father as if we rob and steal from them.
Marty: Absolutely. Yes, that’s what I was going to think. That expression of “to kidnap” is definitely an expression used to steal one’s name. It’s hard to talk about in our Western understanding, our Western language, but that Hebrew expression, you’re robbing. To kidnap isn’t just taking the physicality of their person and their body. The idea is that you’re robbing their actual essence and identity as a person, which just goes along exactly with what you’re saying here and now I’m going back as I just talk out loud and I’m looking at these two verses that Jesus quotes. Honor your father and mother.
Yes, absolutely. That’s great because if you curse your father and your mother, what you’re doing is you’re really robbing them of their dignity, which is what you’re doing if you then go on to refuse something that you could give them to take care of them but don’t because, well, I got to offer a sacrifice. Sorry, mom and dad, and Jesus says you totally abuse Torah. You abolish Torah when you do this. It’s excellent. Love that. Thank you, Mr. Gambino, fantastic. All right, keep going, Brent.
Brent: Jesus called the crowd to Him and said, “Listen and understand. What goes into someone’s mouth does not defile them, but what comes out of their mouth, that is what defiles them.” Then the disciples came to him and asked, “Do you know that the Pharisees were offended when they heard this?”
Marty: [laughs] I love that.
Brent: Why wouldn’t they be? He replied, “Every plant that my Heavenly Father has not planted will be pulled up by the roots. Leave them, they are blind guides. If the blind lead the blind, both will fall into a pit.” Peter said, “Explain the parable to us.” “Are you still so dull?” Jesus asked him.
Marty: I’ve done word studies and I’m not sure that Matthew is written in the Greek, to begin with. I don’t know exactly what to do with that, but I want to know more about the heart and the tone with which Jesus said that to Peter and what he truly was trying to communicate. The way we read them, He goes like, “Peter, you’re such an idiot.”
Brent: “Don’t you see that whatever enters the mouth goes into the stomach and then out of the body? The things that come out of a person’s mouth come from the heart and these defile them. For out of the heart come evil thoughts; murder, adultery, sexual immorality, theft, false testimony, slander. These are what defile a person, but eating with unwashed hands does not defile them.”
Chris: Come on, those are the laws.
Marty: I know, yes, I was just going to say that gives credence to everything the good doctor was talking about over here. Man, that’s juicy. I like that. Which I love because in a very practical sense, touching unclean things, eating, that does make you unclean. Even in the Books of Moses, in Torah, Jesus is like, “That’s not the point. The point is people and where your heart is; that is actually what drives all this other stuff. Out of your heart is where all these actions are going to come. Out of your heart is what you actually believe about people and it drives how you treat people in the first place, and so that’s where the cleanliness lies.” I just love that. Just Jesus getting even more practical than the practical, if you will.
Brent: Everything He names is something that hurts someone else.
Marty: Right, yes, absolutely. It’s all that back half of the 10 commandments.
Chris: Yes, the back half. This is a quote from, I can’t remember which rabbi. This is a quote from one of the rabbis that had pointed me to “the law section that the stories and those laws that become commentaries on those stories are speaking to complex human experiences.” Again, back to this human component that Jesus invites them into.
Marty: Oh, yes, that’s good. Absolutely. All right, let’s go through one more story, Brent, and I’m just going to let you read it, and then I have some notes that I’m going to read off of and we’ll close off by looking at this last story here.
Brent: Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon. A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him crying out, “Lord, Son of David, have mercy on me. My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.” Jesus did not answer a word, so His disciples came to Him and urged Him, “Send her away before she keeps crying out after us.” He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.” The woman came and knelt before Him. “Lord, help me,” she said. He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.” “Yes, it is, Lord,” she said, “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their masters’ table.”
Marty: This girl’s got some chutzpah, I like it.
Brent: Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith. Your request is granted,” and her daughter was healed at that moment.
Marty: All right, so Jesus finally, in this story, manages to do what he’s been trying to do since the beheading of John the Baptist a couple of episodes ago. He finally gets away to get a little R&R, pull away for some alone time, if you will. In order to find this alone time, he has to go off with Misha, I just love that. The only way he’s going to get away from these crowds of Jewish observers is to go to a pagan nation where there’s no way that they’re going to follow him to the region of Tyre and Sidon. Which I love, by the way. In this story, Matthew calls her a what woman? I just love this because Matthew’s audience is what, Brent?
Brent: The mumzer.
Marty: What’s the audience?
Brent: Oh, the audience, sorry. The Jews.
Marty: The Jews, and he calls her a what?
Brent: A Canaanite woman.
Marty: Canaanite. If we’re in Mark, do you know what he calls her? A “Syrophoenician,” because Mark’s audience is…?
Brent: The Romans.
Marty: Romans. Are there Canaanites anymore?
Brent: No, there wouldn’t be.
Marty: There wouldn’t be, and yet for Matthew’s audience, he calls her a Canaanite to make the point of the outsider, who she is as far as part of the biblical narrative, not just the socio-political geographical location. I just love it. Anyway, a little tidbit, but He has to go all the way to Syrophoenicia to get this done, this rest that he’s been looking for. This little R&R, this little breather that he needs doesn’t last long. It takes a mere two verses, Mr. Brent Billings, for him to encounter somebody who needs his attention.
He finds this Gentile Canaanite woman and she begins to beg Jesus to heal her daughter, but Jesus ignores her. Again, this isn’t like Jesus is always drawn to every single person that has a need. He’s trying to pull away, He’s trying to get on this retreat, He’s trying to get some solitude to recharge His batteries, and so Jesus ignores her. Just like Jesus, right?
Brent: This is interesting because he doesn’t say a word, it says. Then the woman is apparently saying enough to actually get the disciples to say something to Jesus. I think typically, they’re going to say, “We’re following a rabbi, we do what he does,” but she’s being so persistent that they’re like, “Can we please do something?”
Marty: Deal with this, yes. Jesus does. Instead of rebuking his disciples, Jesus turns around and tells her he has not come to help the Gentiles, which he’s been preaching about the Gentiles this whole time in the book of Matthew. Jesus believes his job, as we’re going to see it here in the story, is to go to the lost sheep of Israel. “My people are off course,” Jesus says, “My job is to go work with this Pharisaic world and to tell them that they need to be on mission and love people like you, but I’m not here for you. That’s not what I’m here for.” Ouch if I’m this woman.
Brent: It’s like He’s using the Gentiles to illustrate, I’m seeing more of what you’re supposed to be doing in the Gentiles than I am in you. It’s like a prompt for them, but it doesn’t necessarily have anything to do with him helping the Gentiles directly.
Marty: Right.
Chris: So the Gentiles don’t take over the covenant?
Marty: Tell me more.
Dr. Gambino: My question is, I’ve heard a lot about these Gentile folks becoming the new people of God.
Marty: [laughs] So there is an edge of sarcasm to that question. Apparently, that’s not how the story is going, you’re absolutely correct. There’s no replacement theology here. Get that icky stuff out of here. Be gone, evil spirit of replacement theology. She continues to beg them. Like I said, she’s got some chutzpah. The rabbi has now addressed you twice. He’s ignored you and now addressed you. He reiterates His response as she continues to beg Him. Only this time, He uses what really appears to us to be incredibly strong language. “It is not right,” He says, “to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”
Just when you thought the story couldn’t get any worse—Jesus ignoring the woman, Jesus telling her I’m not here for you—did Jesus just call her a dog? Good to point out, by the way, some context as we fly through here because something we mentioned, I think we might have missed this even in previous podcasts, I can’t remember, I think in the Sermon on the Mount, it was cultural slang in the first century in the Jewish world to refer to the Gentiles as dogs or even pigs. It’s hard for us to even process in the Western language. I think Ezekiel—we just talked about Ezekiel a couple of episodes ago, Brent, and what was it that always symbolizes the Gentiles? Give me some examples in Ezekiel.
Brent: Oh, gosh.
Marty: What comes to nest in the trees?
Brent: The birds.
Marty: The birds.
Brent: Yes.
Marty: What are we catching in a net?
Brent: Fish.
Marty: Fish. Animals like dogs, pigs—oh, gross, Gentiles—we read into a lot more derogatory references. That’s a very typical Jewish slang to talk about. That comes really out of the Text to talk about the Gentile people and it doesn’t have that connotation that we might read into it. Jesus is saying quite clearly, it still doesn’t get rid of the actual problem here because Jesus is now reiterating for the second time, “I am here to work with the Jewish people. I’m trying to catch a breather here,” but this explanation doesn’t satisfy the rest of this story.
The woman responds with the following words, “Yes, Lord, but even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table,” and at this Jesus is astounded. His response is, “Woman, you have great faith,” and He grants her request. Wait a minute, what just took place here? What was it about that statement that gets Jesus to turn His opinion on its head in one single sentence? Before I answer that, I want to entertain a possibility in our listeners’ heads, and this will be a stretch for some, but I want to challenge us with this. I’d like you to consider the idea that Jesus learns things. He can be unaware of a certain truth because Jesus is operating in his total human nature.
I would never take away from Jesus’s divinity, by the way, or his divine nature for one moment. I believe that Jesus is 100% divine and I affirm historic Christian Orthodoxy, but I also believe that Philippians 2 teaches us very clearly that Jesus set his God nature aside and came to function as a man. While he was God, he did not consider equality with God, Philippians says, something to be held onto, the proper translation would say—something to grasp, something to hold onto—but he set it aside and came here among us as a man.
Brent: New NIV says, “Not something to be used to his advantage.”
Marty: Yes.
Brent: He’s like, “Yes, I could do that, but that’s not how I’m going to work here.”
Marty: Right, “That’s not what I’ve come to do.” There’s a couple of more references. Jesus says in the Gospel of John, “Everything I have learned,” the actual Greek if you look at that, “Everything I have learned.” Some translations it’ll say, “Everything I have been given, I have passed on to you.” The actual Greek is, “Everything I have learned from my Father, I have made known to you.” There’s a passage in Hebrews that talks about how Jesus had to learn obedience is the Greek word. Jesus is a learner. It doesn’t mean he was sinful, but it just means he was a learner. He learned things. He came to realize things.
I would like to suggest that Jesus in his human nature was a learner. I believe this is important here because I remember when I was studying this in Israel originally, Ray Vander Laan made the point. He thinks this is the moment where everything—like Jesus—the lights go on for Jesus. Because up to this moment, Jesus is like, “I’m here for the Jews and I’m telling the Jews about the Gentiles, but my agenda is not the Gentiles. My agenda is the Jews.” He thinks this is the story where Jesus goes, “Oh my goodness, I’m here for the Gentiles as well. I’m not just here for the Jews, but I’m here for everybody, Jew and Gentile.”
What is it that makes that light bulb go off for Jesus? What just turned Jesus’s opinion and potentially if my teacher is correct? If Ray is correct, alters the trajectory of the ministry of Jesus. Where do you think we’re going to find the answer, Mr. Brent?
Brent: In the Text!
Marty: In the Text! What is it that gets Jesus’s attention? What is it that makes him go, “Holy smokes, you are a woman of great faith. What in the world?” There’s a passage actually that if we knew, Jesus is in what region, Brent?
Brent: Before we jump to it, though, should we maybe look at p’shat even?
Marty: Sure, go ahead.
Brent: Because she says—he’s like, well, the children’s bread, toss it to the dogs—but even the dogs eat crumbs that fall from the master’s table. On the surface, she’s saying we have the same master.
Marty: Sure.
Brent: We have the same God, right?
Marty: Yes, she could.
Brent: Okay.
Marty: I’ll keep wrestling with that.
Brent: All right, let’s jump into our reference.
Marty: We need to find it. You started with p’shat, let’s go remez. I think, Chris, you’ve got it. What’s your address here?
Chris: We’re going into 1 Kings 17:7–16. After a while, the wadi had dried up because there had been no rain in the land. Then the word of the Lord came to him.
Marty: The “him” here is?
Chris: Elijah.
Marty: Elijah, okay.
Chris: “Get up, go to Zarephath that belongs to Sidon, and stay there.”
Marty: Wait a minute—belongs to where?
Chris: Sidon.
Marty: Sidon. Where is Jesus right now in this story?
Brent: In that region.
Marty: He’s in the same area where the story took place. Now, we Gentiles read our New Testaments and we don’t pay attention to geography because we could care less. Who cares? Like, “Okay, He’s with the Gentiles, cool.” Like, no, he’s not just with the Gentiles; it’s where he’s at. He’s at a place where a story already took place. Okay, Keep going.
Chris: “Look, I have commanded a woman who is a widow to provide for you there.” Elijah got up and went to Zarephath. When he arrived at the city gate, there was a widow woman gathering wood. Elijah called her and said, “Please bring me a little water in a cup and let me drink.” As she went to get it, he called her and said, “Please bring me a piece of bread in your hand,” but she said, “As the Lord your God lives, I do not have anything baked, only a handful of flour in a jar and a bit of oil in the jug. Just now I am gathering a couple of sticks in order to go prepare it for myself and my son so that we may eat it and die.”
Then Elijah said to her, “Don’t be afraid, go and do as you have said. Only make me a small loaf from it and bring it out here to me. Afterwards, you may make some for yourself and your son for this is what the Lord, the God of Israel says. The flour jar will not become empty and the oil jug will not run dry until the day the Lord sends rain on the surface of the land.” So she proceeded to do according to the word of Elijah. She and he and her household ate for many days. The flour jar did not become empty and the oil jug did not run dry according to the Word of the Lord He had spoken through Elijah.
Marty: All right, so Elijah and this widow in Zarephath basically survived on a starvation-ration, as most scholars say it would’ve been like. This is not like, “Oh, they had some bread to eat every day, a good amount of bread.” They had barely enough bread to eat—that “just enough” like we looked at in Session 1. They had just enough bread to eat, barely, every single day. This story is literally about a widow who eats crumbs—literally. Eats crumbs. And Elijah is the first person in the Text to be connected to what word? Brent, can you remember? This is a throwback. Chris, you can play too if you can remember. Jewish thought…
Chris: Are we talking about chutzpah here?
Marty: Not quite, but that is definitely at play here, by the way, the character of chutzpah. By the way, Jesus just talked about this story in Nazareth two episodes ago. Do you remember this? He was just talking about Elijah and the widow at Zarephath and he ends up being here, and she—I’m getting sidetracked here.
Chris: It’s good.
Marty: Elijah is the first person to be connected with the word “master.” The word master in the Hebrew is the same root word that rabbi comes from. In Jewish thought, the first rabbi, rab, the first rav, the first master with a talmid, was Elijah and Elisha. Elijah has always been connected to the idea of master. Who was the first master? The first master was Elijah. When she says—what was her exact quote, Brent? Do you have it?
Brent: “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”
Marty: I believe this with all my heart—she knows her Text. The Text-text—I don’t know if she knows the written Text-text. She knows the fact that this story happened here. She says she heard Jesus, but even Phoenician widows eat starvation-ration crumbs from Elijah’s table. Jesus goes, “Oh my goodness, woman, you have amazing faith.” This woman in the story of Jesus knows her Text and it blows him away. I’ve now given us a few hard sells. We talked about the numbers of the feeding of the 5,000 a couple of episodes ago. I asked you to consider the fact that Jesus learned things today. I’m going to try to wrap up.
There’s a lot of things that are like, “Oh, man, I don’t know if I can buy some of this stuff.” I’m going to try to pull it together here and try to sell it in what I believe is going to be our next episode, at least to get us most of the way home there on some of these ideas, so we’ll pull that together next. You guys got any additional thoughts here? So good.
Chris: So juicy.
Brent: I can’t wait for the next episode.
Marty: [laughs] When it’s time.
Brent: As much as Jesus’s mind may have been blown, my mind was blown when I first heard this teaching. I love it.
Marty: Yes, love it. Anything else, Mr. Good Doctor?
Chris: No, that’s good. That is good—the Elijah story connection.
Marty: Yes, love it.
Brent: All right, we’ve got all kinds of connections going on here. We’re jumping back to Exodus, we’re jumping back to Elijah’s story. Good stuff. Let’s see. Chris, we can find you on Twitter at @sustainingnow. Your website is sustainingnow.com, The Shuvah Project. Check it out for all kinds of juicy connections between Torah and the book of Luke, and let’s see—yes, that’s pretty much it.
Marty: You can find Brent on Twitter at @eibcb.
Brent: It’s true.
Marty: You can find Marty on Twitter at @martysolomon.
Brent: Also true. Thank you. [laughs] You can find all the details you need about the show at bemadiscipleship.com. Thanks for joining us on the BEMA Podcast. We’ll talk to you again soon.