SRL OOM2: REMOVING THE SHAME OF ANXIETY AND DEPRESSION WITH DARRYL ‘DMC’ MCDANIELS

Faiza: From PBS NewsHour Student Reporting Labs

Matt: and WETA Well-Beings,

Faiza: this is “On Our Minds”

Matt: with Matt

Faiza: and Faiza.

Matt: A podcast about teenagers and mental health, because life is hard

Faiza: And we’re all going through something. And hearing stories about what other teens are going through and how they’re getting better, it helps.

Matt: Oh hey, Faiza.

Faiza: Hi, Matt.

Matt: And hi Jacob, who's joining us today from Texas.

Jacob: Hi, good to be here guys.

Faiza: Jacob, I know you joined Student Reporting Labs at the South by Southwest Edu Conference back in March. Tell us about it.

Jacob: Yeah, South by Southwest is a big education, film, and musical festival in Austin. And I was with Student Reporting Labs there and I got to do some interviews, including one with rapper Daryl McDaniels, also known as DMC. And he was part of a group called Run-D.M.C., which is a big hip hop group in the eighties and nineties, who many consider to be one of the most influential hip hop groups of all time. And the first question I asked was actually like, what should I call him? And this is what he said.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: You could call me Darryl, you could call me Dee, you could call me Darryl Mack, or you could call me DMC. People always ask me, what does my name mean? D's for never dirty, and C for Mr. Clean, but sometimes I tell them when certain people ask that DMC means that Darrell Makes Cash. Well, that's a little freestyle, but you can call me D.

Faiza: That was amazing!

Matt: I've definitely never heard someone freestyle their name before.

Jacob: Yeah, so it's actually pretty unexpected that, like, he gave me this whole little rhyme scheme, but, I mean, it fits his personality perfectly because any question I would ask he'd, kind of like be jumping out of his seat, and moving around using his hands and stuff like that.

Matt: Oh, my gosh, that's amazing.

Jacob: The energy that DMC had at the interview is exactly how his music is to let me demonstrate by playing a few seconds of the song. It's Tricky, which was actually trending on TikTok recently, which to me just goes to show that like, his music isn't just a thing of the past, but is also really popular. Now to this.

It’s Tricky by Run-D.M.C: ♫This speech is my recital, I think it’s very vital. To rock a rhyme that's right on time, it’s tricky is the title here we go.  It's tricky, here we go! It's tricky to rock a rhyme, to rock a rhyme, that's right on time, it's tricky! It's tricky, tricky, tricky, tricky!♫

Faiza: I love that song. I didn't even know it was by D.M.C. I remember my dad was blasting it one day and it's truly an iconic song.

Matt: I agree. I've heard it recently on TikTok, but just like Faiza I didn't know it was by Run- D.M.C.

Faiza: What was it like to interview him?

Jacob: So I was really excited when I got the chance to interview him. I like went out and bought his book, which is called Ten Ways Not to Commit Suicide, which really focuses on like his mental health battles and stuff like that. But I was really excited because growing up my parents, specifically, my dad played a lot of Run-D.M.C. in the car. And so it's like. DMC, Darryl McDaniels, is someone who I've kind of like looked up to. When the day came that I got there, I went to Austin by myself and I met up with the people from SRL and he comes into the room and he's just, he like exudes this kind of energy. Like everyone's looking at him. He's like this celebrity person and he comes in with his crew and like, we meet each other. But it turns out that he's like, just a really nice guy, really down to earth and just passionate about what he does.

Matt: It sounds like he's someone who really inspired you in a positive way, so it's really cool that you were able to interview him, and it's great that when you talk about the energy that you're able to see that in person when you did interview him. We're really excited for everyone to hear your conversation with him.

Jacob: Yeah, I'm really excited for everyone to hear his conversation and hear the message he has to give everyone.

Faiza: Suicide comes up in this conversation. If you or someone you know is in distress, the National Suicide Prevention Lifeline is one 800-273-8255.

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Jacob: So tell us about your journey with therapy and doing mental health and why do you think it's important for teens to know the benefits of therapy?

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: Wow. It's especially important for teens to know that they can get help. To know that they can beat and defeat whatever it is that they're struggling with. In 1993, hip-hop had changed. You know, everybody was giving us all this praise and accolades and people were literally like just bowing, happy that we was back. The pay days was bigger. We tourin' and we opened it up for Naughty by Nature. We opened it up for Pac. We opened an app for Biggie. We opened it up for Dr. Dre. We opened it up for Marilyn Manson. We opened up for Korn in Memphis. It was just crazy. But in 1993, when that happened, I woke up the next day wanting to kill myself.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: So I was confused, I was scared, I was afraid. I didn't understand this feeling that was in me while that was going on inside of me. People on the outside, was like, "suck it up! Shut up! You're DMC!" You know? You know, fame and fortune. And first the go go first, go platinum first on the cover of Rolling Stone, first with the sneaker deals, everything that's happened in fact, it's because of you. And the question he was asked me was, "how can you be depressed?". That's a question people will never understand. Just because I'm DMC, I'm no different from anybody else. One of the worst things I could have done was isolate myself. So now I'm sitting there, I'm the only person in the world going through this. So I was living like that for- for months and years. And then it just got to the point where I said, I can't take it no more.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: And then one thought was, "oh, if I die tomorrow if I do leave, if people know the Run-D.M.C stuff, but they need to know Darryl". So that was the idea for me to write my first book, because my whole idea was if I kill myself, people are going to just think about Adidas and Tricky and Aerosmith, but I want them to know who Darryl is. Called my moms up. I was like, yo, I'm writing this book. I just need to know three things about the day I was born. How much did I weigh, what time I was born, what hospital? So she told me those three things. Cool, I love you, I love you too mom. Hung up the phone.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: Hour goes by, she calls back with my father. "Hey son", "hey dad", "we have something else to tell you". And I'm like, okay, what is it? Well, you were a month old when we brought you home, and you're adopted, but we love you bye! So I was 35 years old when I found out that I was adopted. I was an alcoholic suicide, a metaphysical wreck. So when I found out that I was adopted, that even, even more was traumatic to me. My manager, Eric, took me to go get- go do an audition for this film. So while we were at the meeting, he was doing all the management stuff. And the guy, the agent turns to me and says, "Darryl, how've you been doing?". And when he asked me that it just came out. "Well! MF! I just found out that I was adopted at age 35!". And just all of this emotion flew out of me and he was like, and the only thing that he knew that he could do, he was like, "wow, I possibly can't understand how you feeling, but there's somebody that I think that you should meet".

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: So he introduced me to this lady named Sheila Jaffe. She's a casting director, so long story short I met with her and we just sat and we talked. And I didn't know how powerful talking is because my whole thing was I'm not even dealing with the depression now. I'm like, Oh, wow, another life adopted person like me.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: So I didn't feel alone anymore. So I went to rehab to stop drinking. And it was in rehab. I discovered the most powerful thing. Anybody in the face- on the face of this earth or in the whole universe could do for themselves. I discovered this thing called therapy, and it was in therapy where I was able to just sit there and do more of what I first did with Sheila. And that was a thing that allowed me to break all the change and not be ashamed, you know what I'm saying? So for me, what the reason was important for young people and anybody, but especially young people. Stigma exists because of guilt and shame. What are you going to think of me, this and that. Am I supposed to do this? Why? Why? And all of this.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: I'm one of the greatest rappers ever. If you don't believe it or not, here's one of my greatest rhymes. If you remove guilt and shame, you remove the pain. But I was able to speak about how I felt without being ashamed or feeling guilty or whatever people was going to think about me. And the other thing I discovered, especially for young people, is this, if you don't admit how you feel, whether good or bad you never heal. We celebrate people that says, "I feel like a million bucks a day", "I could take on the world". We celebrate people with all this enthusiasm for life, but the minute somebody says, "I feel depressed today", get away from me, weirdo! There's nothing wrong with a person feeling depressed or feeling anxious or it's just a feeling. So once we tell young people, it's okay to feel afraid. It's okay to be scared. It's okay to be unsure.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: I was 35 years old, king of the whole world going through what everybody goes through in life. So my- my victory that allowed me to be an example to show other people the Run-D.M.C. thing was just a set up for when I was put here to do. What I was put here to do is sit here as D.M.C in my Adidas telling the world to walk this way. I'm living, breathing, proof that you could beat and defeat whatever it is you're struggling against. I had alcoholism, I had suicide. I got OCD, anxiety, all of that. But what I represent is you can do it. I know that was long, but that's the story that got me here with you. 

Jacob: And so you talked about that stigma behind mental health. So what can teens do to kind of get over that stigma and get over that fear of going to therapy and like talking about mental health openly?

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: That's a great question. The first thing they need to understand is talking about it to somebody is the first catalyst to empowerment. And what I mean by that is just like with anything, going to therapy is a huge task. So you're already going through whatever emotions that you got. And all of those emotions are good, scared, confused, and even reluctance. "I feel reluctant to go to therapy", cool! You could start by always tell young people and even little kids there's somebody that in the darkest pit of your despair, you might- they might not bring a smile to your face. But it brings a smile to your spirit. It might be your friend it might be a teacher, it might be a relative. That's where you start. So you start speaking to somebody that you feel messed up. You feel like killing yourself. You start speaking to somebody. You feel cool around speaking to.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: So for me it was Sheila. Or to make it more clear, a lot of times the fear and anxiety and the doubt and the guilt will keep you from going straight to the people that you love, that love you the most. So I always say like this, maybe it's the man in the grocery store. Down the block, that you know since you were two years old and when you used to come in with your mother, he or she used to give you a lollipop or maybe it's that. You go up, " Mr. Leo. I've never told anybody...". You gotta to tell someone, that's the first step. So when I was doing a Q&A one time in an elementary school where I live in Wayne, New Jersey, when it was time for the questions, I had mentioned to him a speech that yeah, that it was adopted at 35 and, you know, all that issue. So this little kid, he puts his hand up and his first question was, how did you feel when you found out you were adopted? And I answered, "I was confused or scared" or whatever, whatever. And then a teacher was like, yeah... Was going to all these emotions because he felt like he was the only adopted kid in the school. And he asked me, you know, "what do you do?" or "what could you do?" So I said, whenever you're feeling sad there's somebody that brings a smile to- when you think about them. And he was like, "it's the librarian". I said anytime you're feeling a sadness or stuff like that in school, go to the library teacher because that's somebody that you said makes you feel good and talk to her about what you're going through.

Darryl 'DMC' McDaniels: So this is funny, a couple of weeks later, a couple of months later, the principal called and said, "D.M.C, you just want to check on you, guess what Carlton did." I was like "what?", he was feeling a certain way so he went to the library teacher Mrs. Brown, and said, "Mrs. Brown, I found out that I was adopted, you know, and I don't know what to do this and that, and I've never told anybody this. So I'm coming here to talk to you". So Mrs. Brown goes, "oh, my God Carlton, I've never told..." This grown lady to Carlton. "I've never told anybody this, but I'm adopted too". So the staff didn't know her workers didn't know. When Carlton relayed that he was there, it was her grown opportunity to say, me too. So now Carlton walks through the school like he owns it, because he knows there's another person in the school just like him. Those are the things that remove the guilt and shame. The first thing that they need to understand and it's okay to talk to anybody about you not being okay.

Faiza: Jacob, that was a great conversation!

Jacob: It was such an honor to speak with Darryl McDaniels, and our conversation went on for over an hour. And what you just heard was some of my favorite parts from such a long conversation that really meant a lot to me.

Matt: Yeah, one thing that I really liked was all the rhymes that he used. And one of my favorites was when he said, "if you remove the guilt and shame, you remove the pain".

Jacob: Yeah, he said so many good things in that time and as the interviewer I just felt like it was important just to let him speak. And I didn't really talk a lot because I felt like... It's really important for people to share their experiences and to be able to just speak and just have someone to listen to them.

Faiza: Thank you so much, Jacob, for that interview and for joining us today.

Jacob: Yeah, no problem. Thank you guys so much for the opportunity and especially for the opportunity to do the interview itself.

Matt: Next week on on our minds. How do you process the death of a friend or family member? Stories about grief and remembrance.

Faiza: Today's episode was produced and edited by Youth Media Producer Mohammad Pasha, with help from Briget Ganske.

Matt: Executive Producer Leah Clapman, and the rest of the Student Reporting Lab staff.

Faiza: Music by Blue Dot Sessions.

Matt: And many thanks to Darryl McDaniels for sharing his story and spending so much time with the Student Reporting Labs team.

Faiza: Once again, if you or someone you know needs help, we have a list of resources at studentreportinglabs.org/mentalhealthresources.

Matt: And tell your friends about us. Spread the word. The more people who know about mental health, the better.