Note: Dead Eyes transcripts have been generated with automated software and may contain errors. We advise you to listen to episode audio before quoting in print.
Dead Eyes, Episode 15 - “Marvel’s Agents of C.A.S.T.I.N.G”
Connor Ratliff In October of 2013, Tom Hanks was doing an interview to promote the movie Captain Phillips. And he was asked why he'd never been in a superhero movie.
Tom Hanks No, they don't ask me, man. I keep trying to...come on. I can do it. [Laughs] I can do it!
Connor Ratliff It's hard to tell if Tom Hanks is being completely serious or if he's just having a little fun in response to an interviewer's question.
It seems unlikely that no one has offered him a good role in a superhero movie by now.
[Soaring heroic superhero music starts]
But maybe they haven't. And he hasn't turned up in a superhero movie yet. So if we take this at face value, it's something Tom and I have in common
A few months ago, I got an opportunity to audition for something so big that I cannot tell you anything about it. Legally, I signed documents. Some things I signed might say that I can never tell anybody anything about the things I signed. But let's just say that after auditioning for multiple small roles in superhero films and TV series over the past several years, I was now in the running for something big. "Maybe even life-changingly big," he said, careful not to reveal anything that could be considered a violation of a signed nondisclosure agreement.
I needed some advice, some help. So I decided to assemble a team of sorts. A squad. A trio of professional actors who have been through what I was now facing. Each of them possessing a different casting related superpower and origin story.
One who successfully booked a role in a Marvel film I also auditioned for.
Another who was cast and then cut from a Marvel movie only to find redemption in another medium.
And finally, a leading actor in the very first Marvel feature film, which ultimately paved the way for the most successful cinematic endeavor of all time, the Marvel Cinematic Universe.
[Music dramatically ends, theme music fades in]
Oh, and by the way, I'm not saying that the thing I auditioned for was a Marvel thing. I legally can't say that. It could have been DC. It could've been something else entirely. You'll just have to draw your own conclusions. Legally.
Tom Hanks Let me play the band guy against Batman. I'll do anything. Come on, call me. They never ask. What do I got to do?
Interviewer Academy award winner, two times over.
Tom Hanks I know. It doesn't happen.
Voice of God This is Dead Eyes, a podcast about one actor's quest to find out why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers.
Connor Ratliff My name is Connor Ratliff. I'm an actor and comedian 20 years ago, I was fired by Tom Hanks. Now I roam the streets of show business, searching for answers and opportunities. They call me...Dead Eyes.
Tom Hanks God, I want to throw a shield at somebody. You know? I want that. And I don't want to play the guy in the suit who tells the superheroes what's going on. I don't want to be that guy.
[Theme music ends, dramatic, fleeting orchestral piece starts]
Connor Ratliff I received the first email a few months ago with explicit instructions for how I was to put myself on tape. At the time I had a decision to make. I have, over the course of the 2020 pandemic, grown a fairly enormous COVID beard. And without revealing too much, the role I was auditioning for was one where I thought it might help if I had a large beard. To be clear, the breakdown didn't specify that the character I was reading for should have a beard, but it was my gut feeling--my spidey sense, if you will--that it might help.
Regardless, if I send in an audition tape featuring me with a large beard, that was the version of me that would be under consideration.
That meant that if they liked me, there was the possibility that I could be stuck with it for a long time. Months, maybe years. But if I chose to shave it now, it could hurt my chances of booking the role at all. Shaving the beard could have been my kryptonite. So I kept the beard. I filmed the audition and I sent it to the powers that be all that was left, was to await their judgment.
And I was dreading it.
[Music climactically ends]
It's stressful being under consideration for a superhero thing. I cannot tell you why or how, specifically, it is stressful, but I think I can tell you about the time that I auditioned for a small role in the 2017 movie Spider-Man: Homecoming, and that I did not book it. I think I can tell you that.
And I know I can tell you that the person who did book the role was a guy named Zach Cherry, a friend of mine who books work constantly. And for good reason: he's funny and talented and a great guy to work with.
Zach Cherry as Street Vendor Hey! You're that Spider-Guy on YouTube, right?!
Tom Holland as Spider-Man Call me Spider-Man!
Zach Cherry as Street Vendor Ok, Spider-Man! Do a flip!!
[Flip sound]
Yeah!!!
Connor Ratliff He's the kind of person I would cast and things if I were casting something. And there's a good chance that you've already seen him in a movie or TV show and that he has already made you laugh.
Connor Ratliff Am I the most invested in you as that character?
Zach Cherry Uh, certainly. Far more invested than me or [laughing] anyone I've ever met.
Connor Ratliff Or Sony or...?
Zach Cherry [Laughing] Yeah, definitely.
Connor Ratliff So your character is "Street Vendor."
Zach Cherry Mhm.
Connor Ratliff Just "Street Vendor."
Zach Cherry Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And you say, "Do a flip." And Spider-Man does a flip.
Zach Cherry Mhm.
Connor Ratliff I auditioned for this part, also.
Zach Cherry I remember seeing you that day, but it not connecting in my head that we were auditioning for the same part. You were leaving the office as I was going in.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. So he'd seen me do that character.
Zach Cherry [Laughs] So you sort of alleyooped it to me. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff It's so funny when you go to audition for a Marvel thing, because it's always the same place where it feels like my image of where actors audition for things in the '80s.
Zach Cherry Uh-huh.
Connor Ratliff Like there are some places when you're auditioning in New York, there's a certain kind of modern casting office that you go into. And this is one of the few places that if I was imagining being an actor in New York in 1987, this is the kind of office I would imagine.
Zach Cherry It's pretty nondescript and uh...
Connor Ratliff It doesn't look like a casting office.
Zach Cherry No, yeah.
Connor Ratliff They even have like a little like, weird password. That's like, how you get in, you know, like--
Zach Cherry Oh, I don't even remember that.
Connor Ratliff It's listed as something--It's not listed, like casting office.
Zach Cherry Right.
Connor Ratliff So some places are. They're like, clearly a casting office and you--
Zach Cherry Yeah, and it says "casting" on it.
Connor Ratliff Sometimes I've auditioned for Marvel things and I've gotten a fake script.
Zach Cherry Uh-huh.
Connor Ratliff And they say, "This is a fake script." But the street vendor was legitimately like, the scene.
Zach Cherry What did it say instead of "Spider-Guy?" Because I remember, I remember that it was not--I was not told that it was Spider-Man. It was like clear that it was, but it was like, it had a code name.
Connor Ratliff It was like, "Are you that Spider-Guy from YouTube."
Zach Cherry It said that in the--
Connor Ratliff I think so...
Zach Cherry Huh.
Connor Ratliff Let me see if I--Let me see if--I don't know if I'm breaking, a thing, but I bet I have in my email somewhere.
Zach Cherry Yeah, I don't remember what the sides said.
Connor Ratliff Um...
Zach Cherry I would have assumed that they changed it slightly or just didn't include the word "spider." If not, that's terrible, um...[laughs]
Connor Ratliff Security?
Zach Cherry [Laughing] Security. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff I have it here. "Untitled Marvel-Sony Feature." But then it says, "AKA Spider-Man: Homecoming." [Laughs]
Zach Cherry [Laughing] Wait, really?
Connor Ratliff In the email. So it's like--
[Inconspicuous clarinet piece starts]
"Casting would like to see you for the role of 'Street Vendor.' Sides are attached. I'll also be sending you an NDA." Ok...[Laughing] Oh no!
Zach Cherry [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Uh...bleep all of this.
This is actually one of the craziest looking sides I've ever...
Zach Cherry [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I've forgotten how crazy this looks. Look at what the sides look like.
Zach Cherry [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff It's so small. It's the--That's the smallest sides I've ever seen for anything, auditioning.
Zach Cherry Yeah. It's like four lines, but it's, you know, full page.
Connor Ratliff The watermark of my name is so much bigger than the text and the--
Zach Cherry And very clear. You can really read that whole watermark.
Connor Ratliff Okay. So let's do--I'm going to do the scene. So--"EXTERIOR: LEDGE, DAY."
That's interesting. It says the scene takes place on the ledge. I guess it does.
Zach Cherry Yeah.
Connor Ratliff Even though you're down on the street.
Zach Cherry Sure, ledge-slash-street. You know.
Connor Ratliff "The Masked Man--" [Laughs]
Zach Cherry [Laughing] See, that's what I, that's what I was wondering about. I do, I do remember that it was like slightly off. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff But the email said, "This is for the untitled Sony-Marvel project, [loud whispering, laughing] AKA Spider-Man: Homecoming."
"The Masked Man perches atop a building ledge, surveying the city. A wide shot reveals that his ledge is only two stories high." That's not true in the, uh, movie is it?
Zach Cherry ...Sort of.
Connor Ratliff Isn't he way up high?
Zach Cherry That's sort of written as if it's played as a gag, but--
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Zach Cherry It's not really played as a gag.
Connor Ratliff It looks like he's up on the roof of a building.
Zach Cherry Yeah, he's on--But it's not like, a skyscraper. It's like a, it's like a family's house or something.
Connor Ratliff It's four or five stories high.
Zach Cherry Yeah. Yeah yeah yeah.
Connor Ratliff It's not two stories high. Because that sounds like a joke that didn't make it into the movie.
Zach Cherry Yeah. It's not played for that.
Connor Ratliff Which is like, "I'm up high. No, I'm--"
Zach Cherry Reveal gag.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. "A Street Vendor shouts from his stand across the street. Street Vendor says, 'Hey, you're that guy on YouTube, right? Do a flip.' The Masked Man waves."
Zach Cherry That's pretty much it.
Connor Ratliff No! Because he does a flip!!
Zach Cherry I know, but--
Connor Ratliff That's not the scene.
Zach Cherry That's the essence of the scene.
Connor Ratliff I say it's not the essence of the scene. I think we just read, uh, very much a work in progress. The main joke in the scene is that you think he's up high and he's only up on the second floor.
Zach Cherry That's true. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And then you say, "Do a flip," and Spider-Man waves?!
Zach Cherry [Laughing] Oh!! Yeah, I guess, I guess I assumed the wave took place after the flip.
Connor Ratliff You can't assume that!
Zach Cherry [Laughing] I wasn't, I wasn't--yeah.
Connor Ratliff They would write it in the scene directions!
Zach Cherry [Laughing] You're right.
Connor Ratliff Imagine if that--
Zach Cherry [Laughing] Very different scene as written.
Connor Ratliff You're dealing with high and low when you're filming that scene.
Zach Cherry I mean, I don't remember a hundred percent. I'm pretty sure, you know, they had cameras up there and down where we were, and were kind of shooting, you know, from down up. For some of the takes, Tom Holland was up there, but then they actually did have a guy doing a flip. So then they would swap out. You know.
Connor Ratliff Mhm. Did you talk to Tom Holland in between takes? You're so far away--
Zach Cherry Ah, no. We were very far away.
[Soft, gliding piano and string piece starts]
Connor Ratliff You're so far away that you can't have those natural moments of bonding.
Zach Cherry No, no bonding with him. On the way out at the end of the day, I think he said something like, "You, you guys really had me laughing," or something. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff That's all you want. Sometimes. Yeah.
I filmed my most recent superhero related audition as a self-tape with my friend and past guest on the show. Shannon O'Neill reading the other characters via Zoom. She also had to sign a nondisclosure agreement. We did a few takes of the scene and when I felt like I had a decent one, I called it. I didn't want to put too much work into it. In part, because it's important for me not to want it too much. The second I allow myself to get my hopes up, my odds of booking something go way down. This is probably just pure, irrational superstition on my part, but it feels true.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff When the Marvel Unlimited app came out, I'm pretty sure every time I saw you for a period of time, three months--
Chris Gethard We talked about Thor.
Connor Ratliff --you would lead with, "Do you know about this new Marvel Unlimited app?"
Chris Gethard I would forget that we had talked about it every time? I think I may have a neurological problem. My wife has pointed that out...[fades]
Connor Ratliff Chris Gethard is probably the biggest Marvel fan I know. He's passionate and smart about it too. He's emotionally invested. Get him talking about Marvel Comics and you're good to settle in for a while. He won't get tired of talking about it and he will make it an interesting conversation, even if you aren't familiar with the specific comics he's talking about.
Connor Ratliff If there was another person in the room that you thought might be interested in hearing about the Marvel Unlimited app, you would--
Chris Gethard I champion the things I love.
Connor Ratliff Yes.
Chris Gethard I champion the things I love, and I champion the people I love.
Connor Ratliff You were excited about this.
Chris Gethard Yeah.
[AC/DC ripoff song starts]
Connor Ratliff So this leads me to a disappointing acting anecdote or experience, which is--
Chris Gethard Iron Man 3.
Connor Ratliff Chris was cast in the 2013 movie Iron Man 3, but his character did not make it to the final cut, which is an experience I would never have wished upon him. Because I think there are few people who would have taken it as hard as he did.
Chris Gethard It was brutal.
Connor Ratliff You still have not seen Iron Man 3?
Chris Gethard No, it's the one Marvel movie I haven't seen.
Connor Ratliff You've seen 22 Marvel movies.
Chris Gethard Most of them multiple times.
Connor Ratliff And you haven't seen that one because it's--
Chris Gethard Can't do it, it hurts too much.
Connor Ratliff That is fascinating to me because you are not someone that, generally, I would say looks away from painful experiences.
Chris Gethard No, but I did make a video that was me basically saying, "I have to vent that I filmed a scene in Iron Man 3, and it's being cut and I have to scream and yell about it on camera. Because if I don't, I will cry all day."
Growing up, I was obsessed with Marvel comic books, living in the universe of those characters was a dream come true for me. But it's a dream that died, quickly...[fades]
It was brutal because it was, I, it was, I got to, I got to be the guy operating those crazy, like green screen like, fake computer screens where you swipe things around. My scene was with Don Cheadle. It was going to be the first scene in Iron Man 3.
Connor Ratliff I'm assuming you had a blast filming it.
Chris Gethard It was kind of amazing.
Connor Ratliff I assume you were very excited when you booked this part. You were going to be part of the Marvel Universe.
Chris Gethard Yeah, it blew my mind.
Connor Ratliff It felt like everything was happening.
Chris Gethard Only Star Wars would have a similar effect, or if I somehow managed to join the WWE. Those are the three things from my childhood that to be a part of them, feels like entering a different world. That is its own world that I don't belong to. And now I belong to it.
Connor Ratliff Describe what it was like when you were filming the scene. Just like, the atmosphere.
Chris Gethard A lot of green screens, huge crew, a lot of pressure on it. Director, very nice guy, Shane Black. Great communicator, good notes. Don Cheadle, very kind person. Um, it was very cool to be around his armor. Most of the Marvel-y stuff was going to be put in on green screens later, but I was like, in the room with his helmet. At one point he had to put his helmet on. He did not like it, he expressed that it was a nightmare to have to wear that helmet over and over again, which I never thought about, but yeah, I'm sure that all those actors who have to wear like, body suits and helmets, that gets old fast.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Chris Gethard Probably gets real sweaty in there. There's a lot of foam in there that catches the sweat. Can't smell good.
Connor Ratliff I'm assuming you told everybody. Because I remember knowing that you had done something for Marvel and then finding out that you were going to be, and then not going to be, it was a pretty short window.
Chris Gethard I told a close circle of friends. I think by that point in my career, I had learned not to shout things to the hilltops until they are concrete and real. Or until you get word that thumbs up, it's happening.
Connor Ratliff How did you find out that you got cut?
Chris Gethard Uh, I got a phone call from the management team.
Connor Ratliff They just said it was--Did they give you a reason or just, "The scene's gone?"
Chris Gethard Just the whole scene was gone. I did blame myself a little bit. I was having a lot of trouble getting the green screen stuff right. Like, they needed me to move my hands in a particular way.
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Chris Gethard And I could tell that I was causing some frustration with that. Felt bad about that. Um, but yeah, the whole scene was cut. If--I think if I had come in and like, nailed it or gotten some big laughs--
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Chris Gethard --it could have survived.
Connor Ratliff Did you have jokes in the scene or did you improvise at all when you were filming?
Chris Gethard No, it wasn't. You know, it's intimidating to improvise in an environment where everything is technology-based and there's clearly millions of dollars being poured in.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Chris Gethard But I think it was more like my presence and my appearance in context of...You know, some--I get cast in a lot of roles where it's like, "Why is this nerdy guy with the big forehead in a position--" In that one, the joke was kind of like, "Why would this guy be in a position to boss around War Machine?"
Connor Ratliff I've always been pretty optimistic, and partly it's just because the Marvel Universe keeps expanding, that you'll get another show.
Chris Gethard Well, I did show up in a podcast.
Connor Ratliff That was like a radio drama?
Chris Gethard It was Wolverine: The Long Night.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Chris Gethard And I play a librarian who has cats in the library. Unnamed librarian, and they come in, some of the main characters take out a map from the library.
But the thing that was really so funny to me was, inexplicably, the ,company put my name in the press releases. And I knew like, people were seeing it and we're like, "Oh my god, Chris, you're in a Marvel thing. This is going to erase the sting of Iron Man 3."
And I'm like, "This is a podcast where I play a librarian, whose name is "Librarian," and I, I have a couple cats and then they take a map and then I'm out."
So that was another, almost another thing of like, "Why was I in the press release?" Because a similar sting of like, "Oh, people are bringing this up to me," and I'm happy that I did it. And it's a cool thing that I get a kick out of, but I should not be listed as a guest star on this thing. It's embarrassing.
But then that's the exact type of thing you point out that I immediately am like, "Oh, this is so fun." And then I started obviously spreading where people would tweet at me, "Oh, I see you're in this thing."
I'd be like, "Brace yourself, baby, because I bring the heat in this one."
[Solemn, soft brass theme]
And then I had a lot of fun when they would tweet me again, months later and be like, "Wait...that was it?" So I did, I flipped that one on its head. I turned the lemons into lemonade on that one..
Connor Ratliff When we return, I'll be talking to the star of the very first Marvel feature film. It's...probably not who you think it is.
[Music fades]
[Another AC/DC ripoff song starts]
Connor Ratliff After speaking with someone who defeated me in pursuit of a Marvel role and someone else who was defeated by the process only to fight another day, I thought it might be a good idea to talk to someone who was there at the beginning, who helped start it all. The leading actor in the very first feature film to be based on a Marvel comic.
[Music slows down and stops abruptly. Howard the Duck theme song starts]
I'm referring of course, to Lea Thompson, the human star of the 1986 movie, Howard the Duck.
Just three years earlier, she made her big screen debut in Jaws 3-D. And by 1985, she was starring as Marty McFly's mom in Back to the Future. The enormous success of that film led to her being cast in the role of Beverly Switzler, lead singer and the all girl rock band, Cherry Bomb, who befriends the duck from another planet and helps him save the world.
[Song ends]
But Howard the Duck was not a hit.
[Terse mandolin piece starts]
It ended up being one of the most notorious box office disappointments of the 20th century. Despite that, and the bad reviews from critics, Lea never disowned it. Her super power is that she's able to balance any embarrassment she might feel about Howard the Duck's failure, with a great sense of humility.
Remember the unwatchably bad presidential debate that happened not too long ago? Everyone on Twitter was trying to find awful things to compare it to.
Lea Thompson I saw other people saying, "That was so terrible, and I 'blank.'" So I was like, "That was the worst experience for me, and I made out with a duck." And, of course, the Hollywood Reporter picked that up. Everyone like, picked it up and everyone loves it and they're laughing, you know. People just really won't forget about that movie.
Connor Ratliff Growing up. I read a lot of comics, but I have to admit that Marvel superheroes were not really my thing. I liked funny comics. So the only Marvel titles I bought for myself on a regular basis where the oddball titles like. Groo the Wanderer, The Spectacular Spider-Ham, or Howard the Duck. Which is why I was the kids who was in the audience for opening weekend of the very first Marvel movie. It was a big deal to me then, and it still is. Decades later, I was eager to learn everything Lea Thompson could teach me about the casting process, back before the Marvel Cinematic Universe even existed. Maybe going back to the very beginning would provide me with the insights I was seeking.
[Music fades]
Lea Thompson I was kind of hot because I'd done back to the future at the time at Universal, and Universal was making Howard the Duck. So, yeah, I had to audition. Um, but I was probably on a very short list.
When I auditioned for Howard the deck, I actually went over to the director and the writer's house. And they filmed it. So it was kind of low pressure, I think that's cause I was so high up on the list.
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Lea Thompson But I remember them being really happy that I had like, dressed up for the part. Because sometimes, you know, people can be like, "Ooh, that's pushing it." But I just went all in and dressed the part because I, I don't, I get my character from the clothes, you know, and I had to like, kind of make myself look like Cindy Lauper or Madonna. But I remember I was in Huntsville, Alabama trying to buy that kind of, you know, Madonna wear, and looking for crosses and stuff like that. It helps me, the shoes and the clothes, and everything.
Connor Ratliff Was there a level of secrecy about Howard the Duck when it was being made?
Lea Thompson Yes, but not the same kind of thing. Because, you know, it wasn't so easy to...That was a long time ago.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Lea Thompson I didn't have a computer, you know, I didn't have a phone with the pictures in it.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. They were worried about like Xerox copies or something. Right? Like, that was that, that was the--
Lea Thompson Carbon! Carbon copies of the script. Yeah. It wasn't as, uh, secretive. I do remember there was a little bit of secrecy about Back to the Future, but there was a lot of secrecy about what the duck looked like. They really were--thought it was going to be awesome to unveil this very expensive collection of feathers and latex. So they would like hide from the press. They would like put that sheet around the poor kid, walking out to the, to the locations. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Had you read any of the Howard the Duck comics?
Lea Thompson Yeah, they gave me all the Howard the Duck comic books. And I was sad because it wasn't like the script wasn't as funny as...In the comic books he's a little bit more angry or something. I liked that.
They tortured me for a long time about the singing. Once I got the part, they were like, "We're not sure we're going to let you sing, but maybe we will. We'll record it. Maybe we'll record somebody else." They really tortured me because, you know, obviously they were gonna dub over the puppeteer that was doing the ducks, so it didn't seem like that big of a step to do that, but...it was all humiliating. I mean, you know, if you're talking about humiliation in Hollywood, it was all humiliating. My name, my nickname was "Dawn" because they would shoot the duck's closeup first. And at dawn, they would shoot mine. You know, I'd be halfway through, uh, any kind of take because the technology was so bad and all of a sudden the duck would become possessed. It would just like start going like, Oh, it would be like someone's garage door opener or a plane flying low would activate the, uh, mechanics in the duck's face.
Connor Ratliff Oh, no.
Lea Thompson So it was, you know--And I was trying to be really sincere.
Connor Ratliff What did you think when you first saw the film? Did you see it at a premiere or...?
Lea Thompson Yes, I went to a premiere? They had trained ducks walking around in this very expensive premiere. And there was a feeling that we were running into a car crash, that it was not going to be good. Premieres never feel good. They just don't, they're always scary. It's always like, so...you feel so insecure and so scared. And, uh, so that was, uh, that was rough, but I think I looked pretty, I don't know.
Um, but I remember being just really sweating through it and being really scared. But I'm still proud of that performance. And I love that there's so many fans of it still. I think there's something about the kind of iconoclast flavor of Howard the Duck that, that makes people want to love it, even though it's so maligned, they keep releasing new DVDs.
So, you know, they're not doing that to be nice to me, [laughing] they're doing it because people buy it. And I think it was, it was a lot like that because people showed it to their kids and it was, it was pretty dirty, you know, there's like duck nipples, man.
Connor Ratliff You know, when you're a kid and you're watching stuff that you feel like is not for you, it's a little exciting, but then it's also a little bit, uh, terrifying?
Lea Thompson Mhm. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Because you don't understand it and you don't want to, you don't know who to talk to about it. You don't want to talk to your parents about it. You know, it's just like, within like the first five minutes you see like a female duck with breasts in a bath. Do you talk to your friends about that? Who do you talk to about that?
Lea Thompson [Laughs] Not your pastor. Um, I know, I know. It's, it's always interesting. And I'm always getting all these comments. Like, "I was very confused!" [Laughs] You know, "You kind of set up my sexuality in a weird way." Like, people say this stuff all the time to me, and I just read a bunch of comments like that, that were, that were really funny and really, really heartening. A lot of people, oh, they always stand up for Howard the Duck.
It's funny, someone on Twitter today just said to me, "I taught a whole class about hardworking actors having to do yeoman duty, you know? And you were the--Howard the Duck and you were the one that I studied because you had nothing to work with and you had to sell this crazy love story with this insane mechanical duck with a little seven year old boy inside of it."
Connor Ratliff You're, I assume the only actor who has worked with both Jaws and Howard the Duck. Two notoriously difficult, um, um...
Lea Thompson Costars?
Connor Ratliff Yeah, just in terms of like the mechanics of, of making them, making them exist. Both title characters, both very, very tricky from a practical point of view.
Lea Thompson Yes. And they were both extremely, extremely temperamental in terms of like working. Uh, the first day of my first movie ever was on Jaws 3-D and it was working with the shark. They were like, "Okay--" I literally thought they were trying to kill me. They were like--it's the moment in the film, if you've studied it...[laughs] the epic moment when the shark lunges out of the water to get me.
And uh, they push this button and nothing happened. And they also have, we're trying to shoot it in 3-D and they had no idea how to do that really with these giant cameras. So they pushed this button and it was like supposed to just like mechanically kind of come out of the water and nothing happened. So we waited like a half a day until they finally figured it out.
And then they were like, "Okay, Lea, stand here while 2000 pounds of metal and plastic comes lunging at you."
[Plodding clarinet tune starts]
And I was like, [valley girl accent] "Okay! Sure!!"
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff I feel like you've worked with so many people. Have you ever come across Tom Hanks in, in, in your travels? Have you ever had any interactions, or...?
Lea Thompson Yeah, yeah, he's a great guy. Every time I meet him, I really like him. He's just like, you know, he's a national treasure, so...
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Lea Thompson I feel like I understand your story about Band of Brothers because when I was a dancer--I started out as a ballet dancer--and I worked really hard. I was like, you know, I finally get to New York, I'm in the farm team of the American ballet theater. And they're about to decide who they're going to hire. And Baryshnikov came up to me and, you know, he's like 5' 5", you know, and he comes up to me and he goes, "I'm sorry, you're just too stocky. You're lovely. You've got a pretty face, but you're too stocky."
And I was like, "Wow, he used that word." And, um, I, I, uh, it was very traumatic to me. So I closed my locker, quit dancing and got a Burger King commercial!
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
Lea Thompson Boom! [Laughs] Went from ballet to Burger King!
Announcer And now, an exciting message from Burger King.
Lea Thompson We know...You're watching the game, but you're waiting for something more exciting. Ready? Broiling beat frying nearly two-to-one in the coast-to-coast survey. Not better than baseball? Think about it...[fades]
Lea Thompson You know why I got it? Cause I can say "aren'cha." "Aren'cha hungry?" That's hard!
Connor Ratliff Where are you from?
Lea Thompson Minnesota.
Connor Ratliff Minnesota. Yeah. Ok, it's that Midwestern, that Midwestern sort of twang.
Lea Thompson Yeah. They couldn't find anybody to say, "aren'cha."
Connor Ratliff Aren'cha.
Lea Thompson Because you couldn't say "Aren't you."
[Steady, slow, meandering piano and
Connor Ratliff guitar pluck]
Lea Thompson No.
Aren't. Ya. You had to say, "Aren'cha." You had to put the "c-h" on it.
Connor Ratliff Aren'cha. [Laughs]
Lea Thompson [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Lea has had some iconic roles and continues to have a great career as an actor and director. But something about Howard the Duck still resonates. Maybe it's the underdog aspect of it all: how something that is perceived to be a failure can actually plant the seed for future success.
[Music fades]
Lea Thompson I, I do feel proud to be one of the first, uh, Marvel movies. And I actually went into Marvel to pitch a different version of Howard the Duck that I wanted to direct. So that was really fun. I went with Joe Quinones, who, uh, was the author of the last run of the Howard the Duck comic books. And they didn't say "no." But they didn't say "yes"...[laughs]
Connor Ratliff Did they say "maybe?" Is it still on the table?
Lea Thompson They said, "These things, you know, we work it out so many years in advance and we have plans," because I was using some other characters, uh, from the Marvel universe. And, um, you're inspiring me to go back to them and go, "Joe and I's idea was really cool."
Connor Ratliff It--I feel like there was an era, there, where like certain movies would become lightning rods or they'd become like a shorthand conversation point.
Lea Thompson It's funny. one time my husband had a movie, you know, like I told you, when movies come out, it's nothing but a nightmare. And my husband, Howard Deutch directed The Great Outdoors, which is also like a cult movie with Dan Akroyd and John Candy.
Connor Ratliff And John Candy, yeah.
Lea Thompson And we were waiting for the very first review and we were in bed and the first review came on the TV and the guy says, "If you have a chance to see a double feature of Ishtar and Howard the Duck or this movie, go see the double feature." [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Wow.
Lea Thompson He just like turned off the TV and we're like, "How did they get us both?" [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff It feels so personal? It feels so personal.
Lea Thompson I know it was, it was something to live down, that's for sure. Um, and that's how I actually met my husband because when, uh, Howard the Duck came out and the reviews were so bad and brutal and, you know, they thought they were, it was easy punning, I was so upset that I took a movie right away, that I had already turned down, which was Some Kind of Wonderful that my husband directed. I'd already turned it down, but I was like, "I better get on the bicycle! I'll never work again!" It was, uh, like a, like a nightmare. I remember crying through the first day of shooting because people were making fun of me on the crew.
Connor Ratliff Really?
Lea Thompson Yeah. Pretty dark, huh?
Connor Ratliff Behind your back or to your face?
[Dramatic slow orchestral music starts]
Lea Thompson Uh, kind of both?
Connor Ratliff Oh wow.
Lea Thompson To my side, [laugh] not my back, but not my face, but on the side.
Connor Ratliff Wow.
Lea Thompson It was hard to live through. People are brutal, man.
Connor Ratliff I waited to hear back about the project I had auditioned for. I made inquiries and I learned that, to use their words, "I was still in the mix."
I started to think about the future, and how a role like this could come to define the next several years of my life, a recent article promoting a comedy show I do described me as "an actor best-known for being fired by Tom Hanks." And I started to wonder if that would always be true. Or if another destiny awaited me at the end of this long and silent process. For a brief moment, I allowed myself to ponder a future in which I booked this role, kept this beard and never looked back again.
And then the answer came. It was a no.
[Music shifts to more empowered but still slow]
I got the email and it was over.
The role would go to someone else, and good for them. I could shave my beard if I wanted to. I could do anything, now. I owed nothing to anyone. They owed nothing to me.
But if there's one thing I've learned, it's that heroes don't give up in the face of rejection. They move on to fight the next battle. Plus there are always sequel opportunities.
Connor Ratliff There's no reason that street vendors shouldn't come back. You could be in almost every Marvel movie.
Zach Cherry I do think it would have been funny if I had been in Far From Home and it's like "French Street Vendor." [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I think that joke, I think that joke is such a missed opportunity because people do remember that scene.
Zach Cherry It would have been funny!
Connor Ratliff I hope that Lea will get to direct a Howard the Duck reboot. She deserves it.
Lea Thompson Who better to direct it? That's my point. Like, who better? Who understands the fans more? I understand the comic fans. I understand the movie fans. I can bring them together.
[Bass drop and music begins to pulse]
Connor Ratliff And I still hold out hope for Chris. Being cut out of Iron Man 3 just means that he can still be cast as someone even cooler in the comic universe he grew up loving.
Chris Gethard But I gotta say, as your friend, you're sitting here telling me that I'm going to be in a Marvel movie someday, but I think that what I, and you deep down and a lot of the people listening know is, what you're really saying is you're going to be in a Tom Hanks movie someday.
Connor Ratliff Yeah. I know I am.
Chris Gethard It's going to happen. It's not about me in a Marvel movie. This is about you in a Tom Hanks movie.
Connor Ratliff I think it'd be great to be able to have a conversation with him where we got relaxed enough to the point where it felt like a real conversation and not, uh, not me being frightened of--
Chris Gethard Now, I'm not trying to stress you out.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Chris Gethard I'm going to throw down the gauntlet and say, "It's not enough."
Connor Ratliff I need to act in front of him and have him keep it in the movie.
Chris Gethard You at least need to walk through the background of scene that he's in. And here's the thing. I think if you talk to him and you tell him this story, he'll be blown away. He'll feel a range of emotions. He'll laugh, he'll defend himself and say, "That's just how this industry works." He'll probably feel bad that he threw you for such a loop. And at the end of the day, I bet he might just go, "We need a barista in this movie. It might as well be you."
Connor Ratliff I don't want to just play a barista and walk in the background. I want to get--I want to do something meaty, I want to be able to act.
Chris Gethard That's not what it was.
Connor Ratliff I know that's not what it was.
Chris Gethard That's not what it was In Band of Brothers. Maybe that's part of the problem with this, Connor.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Chris Gethard That's your ego. That's the problem, Connor.
Connor Ratliff Mm.
Chris Gethard "I want to go in and do some big meaty thing?" That's not what Band of Brothers was. Band of Brothers was you getting told to go get a bacon sandwich and a cup of tea.
Connor Ratliff Whatever the initial emotional investment was, interest has accrued.
Chris Gethard This is your ego getting in the way--
Connor Ratliff Maybe.
Chris Gethard --and the part of you that needs to put out this fire and stop this from burning in your soul--
Connor Ratliff Right.
Chris Gethard --needs to be ego free in a very Zen way.
Connor Ratliff You think that makes me whole, though? If I just do a, if I do it a small part?
[Music intensifies]
Chris Gethard I can sign up either through a streaming service, cable package, movie ticket, Tom Hanks vehicle, where you and he are on the screen at the same time in any context?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Chris Gethard It closes this loop.
Connor Ratliff Where does this leave me? Just another guy in Queens, New York. Waiting for my radioactive spider bite, or gamma ray explosion. I feel a quiet calm. A sense that somehow I am still on a path that will lead me eventually to be cast in a role that awaits me somewhere in the Pantheon of superhero cinema.
But that won't happen until the time is right when they have a need for a character actor in his mid-to-late forties, slightly out of shape, but with good comic timing, playing a supporting role alongside a hero or a villain to be played perhaps by a two-time Academy Award winner in his mid-to-late sixties.
[Music concludes, Aimee Mann's "Humpty Dumpty" starts]
Dead Eyes is a production of Headgum Studios. It was created by me, Connor Ratliff. It's written by me. And it's mostly me that you hear talking, including now. The show was produced and edited by Harry Nelson and Mike Comite.
Special thanks to my guests, Zach Cherry, Chris Gethard, and Lea Thompson. And thanks to Aimee Mann for letting us use the song that's playing in the background. It's called "Humpty Dumpty," the opening track from her 2002 album Lost in Space.
If you like Dead Eyes, please do all the things that podcasts ask you to do. Subscribe, rate review. Follow us on Twitter @deadeyespodcast. Talk about us nicely on social media. If you want to reach out the email address is deadeyespodcast@gmail.com.
Please tell your friends about this show, especially if you are friends with Tom Hanks, who has played a lot of iconic characters over the past decade, real life ones like Mr. Rogers, Ben Bradley, Walt Disney and Chesley Sully Sullenberger, in addition to reprising his tentpole, blockbuster heroes, toy cowboy Woody, and symbologist Robert Langdon. But none of them technically superheroes.
He's even played a villain, Eamon Bailey, in Dave Eggers's The Circle, a Bill Gates-style tech-billionaire with a friendly public demeanor and a sinister secret agenda. It's a performance that would have fit right in, in any Marvel or DC superhero movie. He doesn't get to throw a shield at anybody, but he does sort of try to take over the world.
See you next time. Stay safe. Wear a mask. 'Nuff said!