Host = Kristy Duggan
Guest = Kendal Norberg
Host - The Teachers College at Emporia State University presents how we teach this. Welcome back, Kendal. I'm so glad to have you on the podcast. This is our second interview. We talked recently about the crisis prevention intervention and the best programs. But today, we're going to talk more about classroom management. Would you introduce yourself again for those that maybe missed that episode and should go back and listen to it?
Norberg - Kristy Thanks for having me. I am Kendal Norberg. I teach fourth grade in Louisburg, Kansas, which is in Miami County, south of the Johnson County area. I am a fourth grade teacher there. I taught upper elementary school third, fourth and fifth grade through my teaching career. I am a member of the Kansas Teacher of the Year 2023 team. And, you know, our new 2024 team was just we have a new winner as of Saturday night.
Host - That's exciting.
Norberg - It is very exciting. Was very exciting to be there, be able to celebrate and see all of this unfold now after my year was done. So it was it's a great thing.
Host - That's awesome. Well, I am so glad you've agreed to be with us and to share your wisdom on this topic. You know, we talked about the behavior intervention. Help me out here. The BIST program. What does that stand for?
Norberg - Behavior intervention. Support Team.
Host - Okay. And then we talked about the crisis prevention and intervention programs. So today we're really focusing more on classroom strategies that pertain to the whole classroom. So instead of helping one student, maybe is stressed that day or has had a trigger. Now we're going to talk about how the classroom teacher we can be a more effective in the bigger picture. Norberg - Right. And this is something, you know, as a mentor teacher, you know, I'm working with new teachers. I've had student teachers in my room. And this is really what you need your focus to be. Because if you do not have that classroom management down. You know, the academics are not going to fall in place. This is not going to happen. So it's really important to practice this, really be thinking about how you're going to manage your classroom when you're getting started. But also, you know, for me, coming back every year, I think about my classroom management, what worked for me in the past, what have I I've had different things. I've tried. I have. I've had to give up. They weren't working and I've had to go research, talk to other teachers and, you know, replace, replace things. So it's just an evolving type of thing. Like everything is a teaching and we just have to keep trying and it's just something you work at every single day.
Host - That's very true. It's always a work in progress, isn't it?
Norberg - Absolutely.
Host - We've had actually quite a few episodes on our podcast on the topic of trauma informed educator and social emotional learning, and we've talked about how important it is to connect with students. We've had lots of conversations about how important that is. And in today's I don't want to dismiss that because I do believe it is extremely important to be effective in the classroom without those things in place. But I think I'd like to talk a little bit more about the actual strategies that we can do when caring about our students or having good instructional strategies just aren't working. They're not enough. And what else do we need to do beyond that to make our classrooms effective,
Norberg - right? I mean, you're so right. The connections in those relationships are so important. And as teachers we know we're starting the school year out, making those connections with our students, connecting with their families. I told people that I've mentored, you know, it is so important to talk to the parents and get to know them and give them some positive feedback right from the beginning so that they know that you are there working as a team so that if you do have to go with a problem, that you've established a relationship. So it is so important not just with your students but also with their families. But, you know, as we get past that, you know, what can you do? It is very specific. I think you would say you really have to plan out what you're going to do. You have to really practice what you're going to do. And you can't assume that your students are walking in the door with any skills or that they're going to be able to use the skills they've learned in the past. And I think this goes from kindergarten up through high school. I've heard a high school teacher say, you know, first day of classes, those kids come in my room. I say, this is who I am. This is how you come in my room and this is how we get started on our work. And we do that every single day, over and over, and we practice. So I know something that I've talked to teachers about in the past is. Say what I mean and mean what I say. And with that, if you say it, you better follow through because the first time you let one student slide. They all get the message that that is not an important rule or something that they need to follow. So you need to say what I mean and mean what I say. I think another really important part is to think about how you organize your classroom, because it really does come down to organization. So, you know, looking at where are your supplies and your tools in the classroom, are you color coding things? Are you think about a kindergarten classroom? Things are probably color coded. They're labeled. You still do that for elementary and I assume into high school and never taught high school. But to have that process down so that people that your students know what to expect when they come in, this is where I go. This is where I get what I need and this is what I'm supposed to be doing. So I think that is really important to have that organization pieces in place and to practice that with your students.
Host - Give me an example of how you teach that when you're saying so. Maybe I have organized my classroom, but how do I actually teach that organization to the student
Norberg - just to pick something like how you take your lunch count in your attendance every day in an elementary classroom Most of us have a space in the room where we have clips or we have tags, my own magnets. And so the first day of school, as a students come in, I am showing them. One of the first things you're going to do every morning is you're going to come over and you're going to find your tag and you're going to move it to your lunch choice. Cold lunch is also a choice that lets me know if you are here, and that's one of the really important jobs that you have to do every morning. You're going to sharpen your pencils, you're going to pick up your I have what I call like a morning math review. You're going to pick up your morning math review. You're going to sit down and get started on it. If you have something you need to talk to me about or something you need to bring to me or homework to turn in, you're taking care of that. and to teach that. I just walk through the process with them and I physically show that this is where it is. This is how I move my lunch tag. If I'm waiting, then I'm waiting behind the person. And these are, like I said, I teach fourth graders. These are kids that have been in elementary school. They were in our building last year. I know they've done something similar to this, but I still need to show them and we still need to practice this. And then we all go. We get out a pencil who needs to sharpen their pencil? And then we sit down and we might actually physically get up, go outside the room and come in and try that again. This time I'm standing back and I'm watching and then I can make sure oh wait, you forget to do this? So we are actually physically practicing these steps. It is silly as it seems. It is so important.
Host - That's great. I could picture that as you were describing it. I noticed myself. It had been a few weeks in the school and we had practiced and gone over the start of class routine. I taught middle school and out of the blue I realized they're not doing it. They're not coming in, sitting down and getting started. They're off their focus. And I found myself scolding them like you should know better. Right. Mm hmm. And I had to stop myself. Take a step back, going, wait. This isn't going to work. It doesn't do me any good to scold them for routine in the classroom. What should I have done instead?
Norberg - Well, one thing I try to remember is that students have the will. It's the skill that they're missing. So in those instances, and I've had those this year, you know, things were going great. I showed them how to come into the classroom. I showed them the steps to take. And lo and behold, the third week of school, you know, I greet my students at the door. So as they're in the room, then I'm walking in the room and I'm like, Wait a second. I stopped them at that moment. I say, Everybody pick up your stuff. We're going back down the hall and we go back down the hall. We talk about the expectation, talk about what we need to be doing, and we do it again. And there are times that I find myself doing this several times a week. They've just forgotten. They need the practice. And I tell them I am here to help you. So when you're showing me, you don't know the expectation that I know that we need to practice this and I am here to help you. And I know it's so hard for teachers because we're thinking of those valuable minutes that we are supposed to be starting our math lesson and the academic time that we're losing. But I'm telling you one thing, I'm on the K toy 2023 team says is you have to start slow to go fast. And she is the kindergarten teacher. But I think this is true for any grade level. I'm going to start slow. I'm going to take the time now. And even though it's almost October, I am still stopping and going slow so that later this year, hopefully we don't have these problems and I can go faster. But it's so important to stop the moment they are not following the expectation. Stop. Let's go over the expectation and let's practice again.
Host - I like that. Just matter of fact, we're going to practice again. No scolding required. Norberg - Well, and like you said, you know that that's not working. It's not working. And it might you know, there might be one or two students that you can stop and pull over and say, you know what? What is it that I see? Why did I stop you? And they can usually tell you, well, because I was talking and I'm over here messing around and supposed to be doing my math. Yeah. So what can you show me what you're supposed to be doing? And I'm I'm going to watch you. And all of that is we kind of mentioned best this language. So that is some of the language, the behavioral intervention support team that my school uses. And that's the language that we use. Are you okay? Is everything okay? It could be that maybe they did have a really bad morning and something really upsetting happened and they're over there talking to their friend. And it might be that. No, I'm. I'm not okay either. I think I need to talk to someone, so. Yeah. How can I help you? What's going on? Are you okay? And then. Oh, well, Why do you think I stopped and ask and. Okay, you show me. I'm going to watch you.
Host - I like that. Thank you. I'm going to watch you. You show me. Okay. All right. So any other examples of how you set up your classroom at the beginning of the year to be successful? Norberg - Okay. I'm trying to think of something maybe specific. I just I'm thinking of, you know, where we put in elementary schools and the desks are very small. Sometimes we have limited space. We elementary school teachers. I think all teachers are just professionals at this organizing. And if you're not, usually there is someone on your team that is, you go into a room and you go, okay, you're the one. Come here to show me how I should do this. I have what I call like a book caddy or a book box, and it's on a shelf. And those are for some of our bigger books that maybe we don't use daily. Some of our math journal and our reading writing journal, we don't always use those every day so they can kind of go over on the shelf. But I very specifically list on the board. This is what we're going to keep at our desk. This is what we're going to keep in our book box. And then I also have little brochures for all students. They each get their own drawers labeled, This is your overflow supply of pencils. And you know, all those markers, you know, they they probably came with a giant box and grounds or this is where your overflow goes. But I very specifically make lists on the board. This is where it goes and this is how we organize it. And it takes a long time to get everybody's things in the correct place, but we just make sure they do that. And then, of course, you have to stop every once few weeks, maybe every once a month, list those items again. And we have to stop and take time to clean and organize. So organizing their supplies, my supplies in the room, I have certain places where we have our social studies books are kept because they're big and clunky and heavy. And how we get those out and how we put those away are very important. You know, and just even how you grouped your students in the room. I have the desk and little tables and each table has a name or a number, and then we can do things by groups and they know they need to wait till their group is called before they can go out because it's just a crowded space and a lot of kids. So those are just some of those like little nitty gritty things that we do to sort of organize the classroom. As far as going walking down the hall, how you line up all of that, you have to teach them. Some teachers want their students in a certain line order. And they say, nope, you must be in line. Order me. I don't it's not a problem for me. As long as you can follow the expectation while you're standing in line walking down the hall, but still practicing that this is how we line up. When I call your table, then you get in line. Do you walk into the front of the line? No, you don't. You just get in line. This is how we walk down the hall and just be willing to stop and go. I know it's lunch time. I want to go to lunch too, but we're not ready. So we need to sit down and we're going to practice that again.
Host - That's great. That's great. Practice it again.
Norberg - Practice, practice, practice.
Host - Do you have any advice then for when the students might keep talking over me? So I'm trying to give instructions. And I have just a small group of students that are. Maybe ignoring what I've tried to teach them as a Give me your attention signal. What do we do?
Norberg - Well, I think for that and I'm not going to say that I have any kind of magic answer, because this year that specific problem has been more of a problem with the group of kids that I have this year than it has been in the past. So I'm not pretending like I have the magic answer, but for me, and this is what I have worked with a new teacher and our team this year with is you. You're going to have to stop go over expectations. So if we're talking and again that academic time is so valuable, I'm going to have to stop them. We're going to come over here. We're going to sit on the carpet. And yes, everybody, those following directions, those not we're going to go through the expectations again. And a lot of times it's something that we struggled with. We get a big piece of chart paper and we have like a world class meeting. And I say, what are the expectations? Okay, we can list them out. Why? Why are these important expectations? Why are we following these rules? And they could tell me why it's disruptive. Everybody has to be able to hear those kind of things. Hey, is there anything on this list that you feel like you can't do? Usually. No. I could do those things, and a lot of times will make like a little class contract. Everybody will come up and initial. Yes, they helped make those write those expectations out. We've talked about them. They've said they can follow him and we can put our name on there. And I display that up in the classroom. When you get past the point and you still have one or two for my building, when we follow the best model, we have something called a safe seat. These steps are so important to follow, but we have a safe seat where that student might move to a new desk in their room. That's just off to the side. They're not losing any of that instruction in the classroom, but they're it's kind of like a signal, like you're not really ready to be with your classmates. You're going to sit over here. And then we process with them. We have a think sheet that they have to go through and sort of write down, you know, what was I thinking? What am I doing? What's going on? And I process with them. And if they feel like they can go back to the regular seat, they do. But we keep those on file. And once they've gone to the safe seat like three times when they hit that third time, then they're going to go see the principal and even that student that is just sort of talking and disrupting class, they're going to the safe seat. Host - So you mentioned that any of those behaviors that you allow to happen, you're basically saying to the student, it's not really an important rule, right? Norberg - Yes. Yes.
Host - Okay. So if you allow students to talk while you're trying to talk, you're saying this is acceptable behavior, even though.
Norberg - Exactly.
Host - That's not the word to use.
Norberg - Yeah, that's the signal you're sending is you might say, I expect you to show me active listening and we talk about what that looks like, what it sounds like, what I'm seeing, why I'm giving instructions if they're showing me active listening. But the minute that I have two kids sitting there talking and ignoring me and I am allowing that to go on, yeah, I'm sending those to plus everyone else in the class. That message that I don't really mean what I say. It's also, you know, letting them know I care about you enough and you're learning that I expect you to follow these expectations. You are so important to our class. We need you here. We need you learning.
Host - That's a really good point on that, caring It's important enough that you mentioned it a little bit earlier. There are some who would argue that I can't afford to spend two weeks at the beginning of the year on nothing but procedures. I've got this content. I have to teach it. I have to get started. If I'm spending all my time teaching them how to behave, shouldn't they already know how to behave?
Norberg - We'd like to think that they should. Right. Like I said, I have a classroom full of kids that we're all third graders in my building last year. So I know they know. The general rules of the school. The expectations. The same principle. Same gym teacher. Same music teacher. They know this, but we still have to practice. And it just goes back to that. Go slow so you can go fast later. You have to if you are in your classroom and you are ignoring, they are not getting anything from you.
Host - That's very true. What do you use for your quiet signal to get students attention? I know there's been some ideas out there, but what do you use? Norberg - Well, my quiet signal I learned I stole from a teacher, I don't know, about ten or 12 years ago, and she simply would just hold up her hand. Five fingers up a high five, and she would stand there quietly and you count down. Are your fingers? Count down from five. Just slowly. Not saying one word. And once you get to five, I have letters up on my board. The letters noise. They're just a magnetic, little, cheap little refrigerator magnet, magnetic letters. And they start with all the letters during the day. If I count down and they get down to zero and I still have someone talking, I just slide a letter down and I start again. And the idea is this is a class incentive. So at the end of the day, I use popsicle sticks and a little bucket. You can use marbles in a jar. I mean, I've seen all kinds of things, but at the end of the day, they have two letters left. They get two sticks in the bucket at the end of once we get 25 sticks as a class, we take an extra recess just an extra 15 minutes one day. And it's so they're earning it together as class. Everyone has to be quiet in order to earn this. It's not something that I slide a letter up, take a letter down. Once it's gone, it's gone for the day. Next day, we start again. I chose the number 25 for just the first quarter, because it's very easy to obtain. And I want those kids within the second week to earn that free recess and be out on the playground where all the other fourth grade students are out there with them. They've earned that recess because I want them to have that sort of that. Oh, yeah, okay, we can do this. And then we take the sticks out and we start over now next quarter, which is coming actually in a couple of weeks, will I'll up the ante to about 35 sticks. And so it's a little harder to get. But I like this. It's worked for me every year. It's something that I could use in the classroom. I can use in the hallway. I can use outside. I can use on a bus. And it's great because, you know, you'll have a class party or something going on and parents are in and you need to give an instruction or, you know, tell something that's going on. I hold up my hand, I count down and the kids are, gosh, they're tapping each other shirt. She's counting. She's counting. And the parents are just like, how did you do that? And it's just something I, I hope I'm not jinxing myself by saying that, you know, something that has worked consistently for me over the years. And it's. Gosh, I'm trying to think it's one of the things that I have not changed. You know, I used to do like a clip of clip down chart, and it didn't take me very long to realize that that might work for some students, but does not work for all. And, you know, I had a couple students that I tried the clip up, clip down, and they would say, but I was being good And why wasn't I notice yet? You know? And I just took that chart and rolled it up and in my closet it went and it's never come out again. it just didn't work. But this quiet signal, I think, is the best thing that I've seen. And so I've kept it all these years, and I've shared it with student teachers in the past, and I see them doing it in the hall. And I just I think it's the greatest and easiest thing.
Host - Well, and it doesn't have any negative punishment to it. So if they lose it, then they simply don't get the stick to earn the incentive. So it's not like you're taking away their recess. They get to
Norberg - Right It's an extra. Yeah.
Host - And a new start the next day for fresh start. I like that.
Norberg - Well the kids are. Can we count the sticks? Oh, 24. Gosh, that would have been really nice to have an extra recess today. It's so nice. But we'll have to try and maybe tomorrow. We got to stick to it. Yeah,
Host - That's good. what's kind of like your first piece of advice that you would give to a new teacher related to classroom management.
Norberg - I would say stay strong. You have to put have this all in place and you have to follow through. And as much as you might want to go forward with whatever great lesson you've come up with or you might have planned a really cool game and you just, oh, this is going to be so fun. If they can't handle it, do not continue. You have to stop. It is just so important. So to stay strong, to have your plans in place and to be prepared to follow through.
Host - Okay. Be prepared to follow through. A lot of people have talked recently about the current state of education, and I hear a lot of grumbles that student behavior is much worse than it used to be. Do you have any thoughts on that of the change over the time that you've been and how it might be impacting maybe not your school, but what do you think?
Norberg - Well, I definitely think that students have changed. I started teaching in the nineties. I taught for a few years, and quit In 2002 when my daughter was born and I stayed home and then went back, oh, I don't know, about eight years later, I think it was. And I just noticed, even in the past probably five years, a huge change in students. I want to say parents and expectations have changed as well. And it is getting hard and you have to be willing to be pretty creative. I think, you know, I we're going through something right now at my school. You know, I'm not a huge. Fan of sending homework. But I do think if you don't finish something in the classroom, it is fine to take it home and you need to be responsible for that and bring it back. And we used to have during our resources a little study hall for students who just weren't turning their work in and usually. If a student was sent to study hall, it's pretty devastating. It might happen once or twice. They're going to make sure it doesn't happen again. For someone who just never gets their work done, that's a different story. Staying in it for resources is not going to work for that. But we just talking about students and parents like we have been told that we are not allowed to do that. We're not allowed to keep them from special We're not allowed to keep them from recess. We can't take any of that away. So we've had to think pretty creatively. I have a principal who is very supportive and is very creative, and so she's putting together a plan to put if we have missing assignments, we have these two days where students can stay after school. Now, what where that comes to is, yes, we're going to have to pay some teachers to be there to help students with their work. But, you know, just coming up with a plan because things are changing and. We just got to go with it. Like, every time something comes around the corner, we have to get together as a staff, work as a team, be creative and come up with a solution because we need to hold students accountable. It is so important. We're not talking punishment. We're talking accountability. And accountability is where they learn lessons, life lessons that are needed. And we just have to we can't give up on that is so important.
Host - And it's very true. Well, we are about out of time on our podcast. You have any other words of wisdom or any other advice you'd like to share with our listening teachers?
Norberg - Well, I would say if something isn't working for you, like I said, be willing to let it go and look around your building, your district. Find the teacher that has classroom management. When you see them, when you see them in their classroom, when you see them with their student that you want to be like and go talk to that teacher. It doesn't matter that I've been on the catering team. I go to my teammates all the time. I go down the hall to a teacher that didn't talk with me two years ago. She's in her second year of teaching and I say, I saw you do something really cool. Tell me what that is. Tell me about it. Because you could always learn from others. And we're working as a team because in our building we say, it's not that these are my students and those are your students. These are all our students. And we're working as a team. We're there for them. So we have to work as a team.
Host - I love that.
Thank you so much for taking the time to be with us tonight. I am so looking forward to having this episode and I appreciate your valuable time.
Norberg - Oh, well, thank you, Kristy. I appreciate you inviting me to be here. And I do hope that somebody gains something from it. So thank you.
Host - We hope that you've enjoyed this episode and will subscribe on your favorite podcast platform. This podcast has been brought to you by the Teachers College at Emporia State University, featuring talks with experts and educators, addressing topics that can help you as an educator, a parent and a person. We release new episodes every other Wednesday. You can get more information provided by our guests on our website.www.emporia.edu/hwtt. We would appreciate it if you could help us spread the word about the podcast. You can follow us and share on Twitter with @Hwtt_ESU. You can find us on Facebook. Just search for How We teach This. If you would like to be a guest on our show or are willing to give us some feedback, please send us an email at h w t t at Emporia dot edu. I'm Kristy Duggan, the executive producer. You've been listening to how we teach this. Thank you.