Intro, both hosts
<Spooky sounding theme music>
This is Screen Scares, a special October series created by Screen Cares. I’m Sarah, and I’m Jennie and we welcome you to our place to connect beyond the screen and dish on what scenes and scares excite us most during the fall season. And explore ways we can watch better, together.
Sarah
This is a very special episode because it is episode number one of Screen Scares. And I am dying to talk to you, Jennie, about this movie,
Jennie
So you don't have to die, Sarah. It's not that scary. It's not that much of a scary movie. In fact, it might be the least scary movie we talk about all month.
Sarah
<laugh> all right. All. So what is this movie?
Jennie
The movie is Hocus Pocus, which I say it like that because it has a very kind of kitschy quality to it. And I think that over the top is part of what defines Hocus Pocus and I'm bringing that to our Screen Scares as, as my first choice for the month, because it's something that I think I watch every year. And I think that you've watched it before. Right?
Sarah
Of course. I'm not a terrible person. I've watched this movie before.
Jennie
<laugh> I, I think that I'm wondering if it's one of those movies that wasn't just on maybe TBS or something playing all the time that it just happened. And we all have seen it. If listeners who have not watched Hocus Pocus. You are welcome to go watch it. It is definitely not a super dense movie. That's going to be hard to follow along with, I think that the general themes we'll be discussing today of Halloween and witches and scary things. And that kind of, um, topic is pretty universal. I will jump right in then with the IMDB description for Hocus Pocus and get us rolling on our screen scares movie. Hocus Pocus was made in 1993 or released in 1993.
Jennie
It is a PG rated movie and it's an hour and 36 minutes long and the IMDB description is actually like really short again, maybe actually restrictions. They're all short. And I looked through their descriptions trying to find a longer one, but I've decided that we may need to have a Screen Cares/Screen Scares, maybe outreach program, where we rewrite IMDB descriptions to include more information for our own purposes. But here it is a curious youngster moves to Salem where he struggles to fit in before awakening a trio of diabolical witches that were executed in the 17th century. And that's it.
Sarah
I have to say, this is the worst description of all of them. I feel like even for Titanic, where it was like a sentence about this is about a boat that sunk and that was who not enough. I feel like this is just, this does not, this is no, no, this is not a good description. No. What do you think?
Jennie
I agree because this movie ho focus focuses around the brother and the sister. So Max and Danny who have just moved to Salem, Massachusetts from I think Los Angeles, which people make a point of making fun of him from being from Los Angeles comes back and he's trying to impress a girl while they go and accidentally reinvigorate the long since executed, um, Sanders, sisters, Sanders or Sanderson. I think I messed this up every single time I say it.
Sarah
I think it's Sanderson.
Jennie
It is Sanderson,
Jennie
It is, it is. So the Sanderson Sisters, and so they're, they're reanimated after having been, I guess like, I, I re we read a lot of Percy Jackson, so in my mind they have been in Tartarus waiting to come back. <laugh>
Sarah
So now this is a crossover movie I would watch!
Jennie
So I don't quite know where the sisters have been, but I will say casting on this movie is, is pretty excellent for the witches. So we have the win Winnifred, who goes by Winnie, who was played by Bette Midler. We have Sarah, who is played by Sarah Jessica Parker. And we have Mary played by Kathy Jimmy, and then the other, I think other only other person that is a standout star that is still like doing, maybe the others are doing things. Please tell us on social media, if the other actors in this movie are doing things, especially if those bullies are doing anything, we'll get to them in a second. But then there's also Danny, who is Thora Birch, who was also in American Beauty, I think was probably her most standout, other role that she had. So excellent casting. I wanna back up though. <laugh>
Sarah played by Sarah Jessica Parker. I don't know if this is a not generous assumption, but I always wonder if whenever actors are given character names that are just their names. If they just happen to be people who are not good at remembering when someone's talking to them and they just need their real name to be used. <laugh> because it's weird that everyone else has a different name. And then Sarah does not strike me as a particularly 17th century name. So no, I don't quite get it.
Sarah
No, I'm so glad that you're bringing this up because I find it so weird and actually off putting when the name of the character is the name of the actress or actor. I mean, I feel like, I feel like that's a reason to do a little bit of rewriting because even if that is a name that was around in the 17th century, there's also other names. And I just feel like, it just seems like a little bit like a cop out somehow. I don't know why, but it just does.
Jennie
Yeah. I agree. And you know, perhaps there was a real set, a trio of Sanderson sisters, and one of them was actually named Sarah. Maybe. I don't know, I've been to Salem. I don't know how many Sarahs I saw on tombstones, but I, you know, maybe I didn't look closely enough. Maybe it was moss covered. So these are the characters. This is the movie they then have to of course get them back into wherever purgatory they've gone. The brother, sister, and the love interest, who is, Allison. So Allison, Max and Danny are responsible for saving the town and the children of Salem by defeating the Sanderson sisters and getting them to hopefully by the end, dissolve in the sunlight or turn to stone. And so this is the arc of the movie, if you haven't seen it before. So it's one of those classic, uh-oh something bad happened. We have to fix it kind of movies, but it's intercut with a backstory where you see what actually happened in the 17th century, from the perspective of the now turned cat factory banks who, when I was younger, I thought was just dreamy, like that that flopsy Jonathan Taylor Thomas haircut.
Sarah
Something you stole my line. It was,
Jennie
Did I steal it?
Sarah
JTT hair!
Jennie
Yes, yes, yes. We are of the same age. So this is, what was compelling about the movie for me was all of these very, the cool kids, the defeating evil and you know, cool period costumes and awesome witches so this is why I bring it to you today. But I do promise I on a rewatch of kind of gleaned some interesting insights, I think, and also about a bajillion questions about this movie, come to the surface when you watch it at anything more than a surface level.
Sarah
don't know where you're going with this. Exactly. But having watched this as adults, I feel like we're going to have a lot more things to discuss than if we had been talking about this. When we were watching this at our sleepover on like a Friday night when we were in seventh grade, I feel like that would be different.
Jennie
I think that's entirely correct. And I think that's one thing that's so cool about movies and something that we explore on screen cares and screen scares is the way that movies stay the same, but they change over time. And our understanding of them is our own life experiences change. So that leads me nto our Screen Shares Rating.
Sarah
Just as a reminder for those tuning in, Hocus Pocus was rated PG, but of course that's not what we're really interested in here. Our Screen Shares rating system gives our listeners different options just to help you figure out who you want to actually share your screen with, when you're watching a particular movie.
A movie that you might want to share with friends would be a Buddy Screen. Movies that you would share with like work people, or people on a professional level would be a Work Screen. Movies that you want to share with extended family, like grandparents, nieces, nephews, uncles, that sort of thing is a Family Screen. Movies that you want to watch with children, is obviously a Little Screen and then movies that, you want to share with your significant other or partner would be a Love Screen and movies that you really kind of want to just sit with, and think about on, by yourself would be a Solo screen.
And so with all of those different options, Jennie, what Screen Shares rating would you give to Hocus Pocus?
Jennie
So I think my initial inclination or an initial thought might be, oh, a Little Screen. It's a kids' movie. It's a kid's Halloween movie. I mean, it's no Spooky Buddies, but it's definitely still a kid's movie PG, but I'll be honest. It is really, really, really a 1990s PG. And I say that, and this is something I'm really going to get into with a deeper discussion of this movie. But the way 1990s movies in particular would have very bright and shiny and palatable things for children overlaid by very inappropriate adult themes or content or language or often sexual things was very interesting.
And I think that it kind of colors, whatever something is a 1990s PG or PG-13, it is a different thing than a PG or PG-13 of today. So I would actually give Hocus Pocus a Screen Shares Rating of a Buddy Screen because I really enjoy watching this with people like you, Sarah, who watched it as a child and are now watching it again, nostalgically.
Jennie
So I love watching this with friends, with other ladies, having it on in the background at a Halloween party when no one's paying attention. Those are my favorite ways to watch this. When I sat down for a very intentional kind of Friday movie night, watch of Hocus Pocus with my kids, I was just smacked in the face by all of the talk about virgins and the, oh, aren't these witches sexy.
And with kids who are, you know, at the time that they watched it the first time, I think that they were six and eight, “What's a virgin?” was the first question that came up when we're watching it. And so for that reason, I’m not going to lead with Family Screen or Little Screen on this one, because if you're not wanting to have that conversation, you're going to be challenged.
And having that conversation about 12 plus times in this movie, every single time that comes up. So Buddy Screen here, what do you think?
Sarah
I think that's completely right on, I had so much fun watching this with friends but I never really intentionally watched it. I don't think until maybe a couple years ago, um, watching it with the kids, but it was always on in college.
I remember it being on at a Halloween party for a work function once, which is actually very strange when I think about that workplace in particular, that, that was the decision of what should be on in the background was Hocus Pocus, does not seem like it was a good fit at all, but, it's just one of those fun movies with just sort of raucous, ridiculous things happening to, to be there and have fun.
It, it almost has that campy vibe that is really fun to enjoy with a bunch of people. Whereas I feel like those sorts of movies when you're watching it in a serious setting with like a partner or date, or even your kids, it just doesn't, it doesn't work. Right. So I completely agree that this is a Buddy Screen. So when did you first watch this? It sounds like you might not have watched it until you were maybe older.
Jennie
I was surprised by how young I was when this movie came out and it was released whenever I was only eight years old. And what's interesting with many movies, we discussed that our movies that I watch as a child, or that are kind of nostalgic for me, thinking of you, Wizard of Oz. I can very clearly imagine myself watching it. I have exactly zero memories of watching Hocus Pocus as a child. None. I cannot remember watching it. It’s possible.
I didn't watch it until my first memories of watching Hocus Pocus, which were in college, living in group settings, going over to people's houses, having people over to ours and choosing something that was fun and lighthearted to watch that you, as you pointed out, it doesn't require a lot of you to watch it.
And it has a lot of elements that are very fun to watch. So I would remember the song part coming on and thinking it was so fun or kind of snickering at the different inappropriate jokes. So those are my biggest memories I had of watching it are watching it in college. And then whenever I became a teacher and I had coworkers, I'd have my friends come over on Halloween and we would have it on in the background while we did all sorts of fun Halloween things.
So what about you, when was the first time you watched this? Do you remember watching it as a kid?
Sarah
I remember going to a sleepover in middle school. And did you have these friends that were just like cooler than you? I don't know somehow, like you were really, really good friends, but they always knew more of the like cool bands or I don't know, they just had more knowledge somehow. I don't know this, this friend was that. And, I think it was also just because I didn't get to watch a lot of scary movies when I was a kid because, um, hashtag preacher's kid, <laugh>.
I went to this sleepover there at our house and this was playing and I thought it was strange though when I watched it, because everybody thought it was so serious. And I thought it was so funny. Like when I, I was there, I was like laughing at all of the different things.
But my friends, they, they were really, you know, really concerned with the mortality of these characters and who's going to survive and, what's going to happen to their souls. And I was just laughing, which is probably very annoying to watch a movie with somebody when you're taking it seriously. And some annoying person is laughing in the back. <laugh>
Jennie
I absolutely love that image so much because the way you're describing the other people you watched, it is kind of how I imagine in middle school, the way that my friends and I would watch the movie, The Craft, like this is dark, this is serious. Like, wow. Witchcraft is real. Like, again, like what's going to happen to these people's souls
I think that that level of intensity, it is kind of funny to imagine it applied to a more Disney movie-esqque kind of Hocus Pocus <laugh> so that's, that's interesting. That's really interesting. And I do know what you mean though.
I currently have a friend that I host a podcast with that I always feel like is like way cooler than me.
Sarah
Oh shut up. <laughs>
Jennie
<laughs> And always has excellent like music taste and everything like that.
Sarah
Lies. <laughs>
Jennie
<laughs> But I know exactly what you mean though. Whenever you're over at someone else's house, you also have that like, oh, what are their favorite things? Or what is their stuff? Like, what movie do they pick? And I like that you have a memory though of watching it in middle school. I'm wondering, have you watched it with your kids? Because when I've watched it with my kids, every single time we watch it, the same kind of themes come up, but my kids are very I don't know. I think they're incensed by the characters and the same way that when you end up watching shock thriller type horror movies, where you're like, don't go in the basement. It's clearly where the guy is.
The kids were very like, “why are they lighting the candle? Like, why are they doing that? It's clearly such a bad idea.” And we were watching it most recently. The quote that I had from Maxwell was, “don't light that candle, it's an heirloom. You don't do that to impress a lady!”
That quote from 10 year old Maxwell because that's correct. That's correct. You should not light heirlooms, especially not just to impress a lady, Allison. This is my experience, watching it with my kids. They are incensed by the characters. What did your kids think of it?
Sarah
I love that story about Maxwell. I could just picture him saying that, with all his just earnest just sort of intense expression too. I just love that so much. I did watch it with the kids a couple years ago. So it was kind of at the beginning of the pandemic. So I think it was probably two, three years ago and I kept sneaking glances over at Liam. He would've been either 10 or 11, depending on when we actually watched it. And he got the jokes. He knew what everybody was talking about with all of the sexual references. And he was kind of in that moment where he was like shifting uncomfortably in his seat because his parents were in the room. And I think that's a weird age to watch this movie because you're kind of like on the cusp of all of that older teen stuff that they're talking about. And so he was just thoroughly uncomfortable.
Then, um, do you remember, there is a scene at the beginning where, Thora Birch's character, meets his wannabe girlfriend, the girl that he has a big crush on and they reference her breasts. But do you remember the word that they use?
Jennie (00:20:24):
I do because whenever I was watching this again, my husband was in the room too, and we were all watching and I looked at him and I was just like, “Yabos?! Yabos?!”
And we, we had a whole conversation about, has literally anyone ever since Hocus Pocus ever called them “yabos” and that whole conversation. I and I, again, when we get into the kind of creation of this movie, that feels like something, a man in his fifties would write about imagining what children would say, referencing breasts, like “let's think of a silly word to reference breasts” and someone who had no idea what the young people were saying. Just made something up.
Sarah
I know. I mean, and okay, so I guess like in 1993 or 1992, maybe, or whenever this was made, I perhaps there wasn't the availability of, you know, the power of Google that we have now, but like, oh, my word, it boggles my mind that that was the word chosen because I had never heard that word before. And I was a child in the nineties. I was a, I was 10, 11, 12 in the nineties. So I think I would've heard it if <laugh>, if somebody used that word ever
Jennie
<laugh> oh, 100%. I agree. And I'm glad we made this segue because while we're still kind of at the front end, talking about how the movie was made, who was in the movie, what's it about, I want to take a moment to pause and discuss one of the director and writers of the movie.
I sometimes think this is fascinating. Whenever there's a weird movie like this, where you have questions of, “Why are they saying ‘yabos’? Why are they referencing virginity? Why is this movie such kind of an odd, like juxtaposition of this children's movie with these more adult themes,” you know, very 1990s style. And one of the writers in the movie is a man named David Kirshner and David Kirshner. Whenever I did a little, a little, very cursory research into him, very busy guy does all sorts of things.
American tale, which was another one of my favorite movies. He did Hocus Pocus. And he also did the full lineup of Curious George movies. So I'm talking if, if you have it relationship with young kids and PBS, you've seen these, that would be the Swing into Spring or the Christmas Monkey or a Halloween Boo Fest, things that we watch almost every year.
So all that to say really heavy CV of kids stuff. But Mr. Kirshner also is the person who is the executive producer for the Child's Play movies and Chucky. I would just love to have a conversation with this fellow and understand where this creative arc is coming from in his life and figure out this, this mixture and this marriage of this pure innocence of Curious George or a Disney movie of Hocus Pocus.
I actually, I'm not even sure if it's a Disney movie, I've referenced that more than once it's on Disney Plus. So that's why I'm thinking that it is a Disney movie. These innocent movies paired with these truly terrifying horror movies, but horror movies of Chucky, Bride of Chucky, Child's Play that play on the very idea of innocence, corrupted, that very idea of a toy being made evil or a movie like Hocus Pocus, having a background of sexual content that feels really out of place.
And so whenever I realized that he was someone who was involved in the creation and writing kind of some pieces clicked into place for me. And I was like, huh, maybe that's how these odd inserts of conversations about virginity and “yabos” and “oh, are these witches sexy.” Maybe that's how it found its way into this lighthearted musical number, beautiful costumes kind of movie.
So what are your thoughts on that? Am I reading too much into this writer's backstory in his life? Or do you think that there could be some like nugget of truth that that could have affected why Hocus Pocus honestly is like a smidge weird. If you take a second to look at it more deeply.
Sarah
I think you're so right on. I don't think that you're going too deep into it. I mean, I think that you're being almost a little generous because part of me feels like there's a deeper, darker undercurrent in Curious George now.
For instance, I don't know if I'm going to look at this little child-like monkey that runs around with no pants around this guy who wears all yellow the same way this, this is not okay. Perhaps I'm not sure, but in reference to Hocus Pocus, I agree.
Maybe it doesn't give us a lot of answers, but it raises a lot of questions,
Jennie
I think that's right. And I think earlier at the beginning of the show, I referenced that the idea that this movie really just gave me more questions than answers whenever I sat down and enjoyed it in a way that was actually thinking.
And how is this movie? I think a really great introduction to why we like being scared and why it's kind of a community experience. And oh yeah. I definitely think that one reason why I like watching it around Halloween, other than that is obviously about Halloween stuff, is that it's a really fun movie to watch with people, with buddies, with other people.
And it kind of has that community coming together, which if you heard our Screen Scares trailer, the idea of people coming together in the darkness is ancient during this time of year of people, bringing their resources and huddling in for a long dark winter. I think that movies are very much that thing.
This movie does that in a really inviting way, but it wouldn't work if it didn't have the scary elements to it, if it didn't give you a reason to huddle together. And so I think that that brings me to part of the arc of this movie is the idea that this all happens on the night that they go trick or treating. Do they believe in the scary stuff or not? Max, the cool kid from Los Angeles tells the whole class at the, the beginning after the teacher tells the story of the original vanishing of the Sanderson sisters. He's like, “That's just a bunch of Hocus Pocus, right?”
It starts off with this very much this idea. Do you believe in it? Do you not believe in it? And how does that affect your actions? And so we see how their belief in the scariness, their belief in needing each other brothers and sisters or partners, how that shifts as the movie goes on, how that evolves. And then also how children are the driving force of saving the entire town.
And I think that's obviously very popular in children's movies, but I think that the idea that innocence has to save everyone is, is a big responsibility. <laugh>
I think that Hocus Pocus, although it's a little bit, you know, fluffy, it does do all of those things because it's fluffy. If that makes any sense.
Sarah
It does, from what I'm hearing, it's the juxtaposition between this dark and this evil and this permanence of your soul being taken forever and this very light, ridiculous, quirky stuff. And even the witches though, I mean, I wanted to get you your thought on the witches, because when you think about what they are threatening, that is bad. That is scary. Death is not good. The witches themselves, they never struck me as being particularly scary. What about you? Is it what they're threatening or is it them, or what do you think?
Jennie
Are the witches in Hocus Pocus scary? I can't believe I didn't even ask myself that question. One thing I did notice was that the way that they call the children to them is through the beautiful voice of that song, where Sarah, Jessica Parker's character is singing come little children, “I'll take you away into this land of magic.” And that idea as an adult is very scary because I think that there's a lot of examples where the, the thing that is beautiful or tempting is obviously the bigger threat.
As they say in Lord of the Rings, Frodo says that he believes “if Aragorn was actually dangerous, he would look far better, or act sweeter.” I think that I might be butchering that quote, but it's that idea. So I think that it is scary, but it is scarier as an adult.
Jennie
realizing that, but in the movie when I watch it as a child or when I'm watching it, they're just fun. They're just kind of effervescent. And they are singing at the big neighborhood, Halloween party and really lulling all the adults into a sense of false security. The more I've thought about this film, the much more scary the characters actually are because they're so seemingly benign because they're so seemingly appealing.
And I think that that's one of my main takeaways from this movie, actually. It's the idea that whenever you make evil, funnier, sexier, more musical, it makes it less frightening, but it does not make the outcome different. It does not make the fact that all these children have been lured to it different.
The same way that making evil, less making innocence less precious making innocence made fun of the fact that the virgin in the movie has made fun of the entire time. And also not listening to children. That kind of convergence of innocence being less precious and evil, being more palatable, I think is truly frightening. And I think that there's a lot of examples in society where we do that in unseen and unnoticed ways.
Sarah
You know, you just summed up something that I don't think that I had thought about. So completely until just this very second, but thinking about some of the most terrifying movies, in just recent years. We could put Hocus Pocus in this category, even as light as it kind of is because of the witches kind of fun, silly banter and everything, but like also the Ethan Hawk movie, Black Phone, where there's this very scary dude with the balloons and his magic tricks or It, you know, with the, the single red balloon terrifying, but these are all things that entice kids to feel safe and play on that sense of innocence and danger. And again, this thing of adults just sort of poo-pooing anything that the kids are trying to warn them of that is legitimately terrifying and something that I had not fully appreciated until right now.
Jennie
I didn't appreciate it really until I watched, this was a much more critical eye. I think that it was interesting to me that innocence being pulled away that is so precious and the whole town will band together to save the children in the 17th century. But then that child progresses three years, four years, five years. And then they're 15, 16, 17 years old, the age of max in this movie. And then he's being ridiculed throughout the entire movie for being a Virgin like that, this, this like very narrow line in which children are allowed.
And, and I, I don't know if it's true in all cultures, but certainly in a lot of modern media Western culture, that the fact that kids go from precious, innocent, protect them from everything at all costs to grow up, stop being a virgin that's ridiculous and pathetic. And we will all make fun of you. Even your little sister will make fun of you from being a virgin, the number of eye roll, the virgin, you know, with the candle. Gosh, uh, it was so much, and that's kind of what just kept hitting me in the face.
When I watched it again, was what are we doing? And what is this very thin line that kids are allowed to exist in between innocence and adulthood? And why just, why I, I don't know. Did that strike you as weird?
Sarah
That does. And, and not just why, but how, and like how are they supposed to live?
I mean, I, this makes me think, and, and I think that you touched on this, but, made me think about when Liam was, I think he was 10 or maybe he was nine. And at that point in his life, he was taller than a lot of kids. And so it looked strange, I think, to trick or treating when he would be going around with these kids that were like a head shorter than him trick or treating, he would kind of get the comments of like, oh, “are you taking your brother around?” “Uh no, I'm like nine I'm trick or treating, cause I'm doing that. And it's fun.” And there's this like very weird age of like this appropriateness of trick or treating.
Have you seen these like on Facebook or media about like stopping teenagers from trick or treating, like I've seen all of this stuff and I really want to know what is the big jar problem with that? Like, I really don't care if a 22 year old man comes to my door and once candy on Halloween any other day, no go away. But Halloween, why that's it's harmless fun.
Jennie
I am so glad you circled back to trick or treating because it was something I was wanting to talk about and I feel so bad and so much empathy for Liam because I also have two kiddos who are taller and people will expect more from them or expect them to be more grown when I'm like, “y'all, he's eight. Like he he's eight, he's 10, it's calm down.”
Sarah
<laughs>
Jennie
But I remember this was one of my other reasons why I love this movie. And in fact it's probably why I, well, love is a strong word. I will sit down and watch many movies if it is focused around trick or treating, which is why I've seen a lot of really terrible Halloween movies because we probably needed to do a whole episode of spooky buddies cause it does a lot for me in that way.
It was one of those kids movies that I ended up watching, cause the kids wanted to watch dogs talking in costumes and I was like eye roll. But then the eye, the, then the dogs are trick or treating. And I was like, what again? What are we doing here? Um, I'm here for it because trick or treating. And I think my strong personal connection to trick or treating is that my dad and I would do it as a special thing as an only child, every single year.
I didn't have a lot of friends or family members to go out trick or treating with. I didn't have an older brother and I lived out in the country and so we would drive into the thriving metropolis of Springfield, Missouri. And we would go to my grandmother's neighborhood, which had like full size candy bars, if you know what I mean? So, oh, most people was the best. I know the full size candy bars, maybe even a soda. I mean,
Sarah
Amazing
Jennie
Hold up. Right. Amazing. We would go to that neighborhood and my dad, we would trick or treat till we dropped. I mean I would have two, two or more like pillowcase full of candy. So I would have my cute little probably McDonald's or it was, it McDonald's that had the little pails?
Sarah
They did! The little cute plastic pales. Yes!
Jennie
I would have that and I would fill it to overflowing and then I would, would dump it into a pillowcase that my dad would carry for me. And that way I didn't. Right. Cause it's too heavy. And because you don't want to go up to the door asking for your full size candy bar with a overflowing basket. So my dad and I guess had a hustle going is what I'm describing.
Sarah
<laughs>
Jennie
And we would go while my mom and grandparents back at their house would hand out candy and we would go till really, really late, I mean, hours. And I have such good memories of doing that, because I had fun doing it and dressing up as fun. I remember trick or treating well beyond the age that most other kids trick or treated. And I also, while watching this, had this question
Why do we cut it off? At what point does it become inappropriate? But I think in this movie, they deal with that. Again, that, that fine line for kids either you can trick or treat and be cute, or we will assume that you are up to no good. And you are smashing pumpkins, literally not just the music and you're causing trouble. And so that is a really sad assumption that either kids are bullies causing trouble. Or they're pathetic if they're trick or treating. And I just like, come on society. Why?!
Sarah
Exactly. Well, and you forgot the third stage of life, according to these movies. So you've got the first two that you mentioned. And then if you are in a nineties movie of developmental psychology, then your third stage is to be a completely neglectful parent. And that is just, you never know where your children are. You're always at a party doing something and doing something stupid. You're always going to need to be rescued because you're too drunk or too stupid to have seen the bad thing come to you and get you. It's, it's really quite shocking,
Jennie
Quite shocking, quite shocking. And that's kind of this feeling of, and maybe like maybe this says something about the psychology of the people producing and writing movies at that time, with whatever was happening with their parents and probably the seventies, if this is the parents that they're writing in these movies, because let's take a moment and, and look at that.
So we have these kids who are, you know, bucketed and too cool, not cool, virgin, not virgin innocent or not. And this very fine line. We have bullies going around the neighborhood or cute kids trick or treating.
But then we have the whole storyline of the relationship between the absentee in a parents slash adult community that sends this message to children watching this movie. Like you’ve got to fix your own problems, kids. Like you're going to have to solve evil for this town while your parents are literally dancing till they die, as Bette Midler says.
But that scene where max and Danny and Allison come into the, you know, really debaucherous, like dancing party with all the adults and very cool costumes. I wish people dressed up like that for parties, by the way, like that was a cools party, like, oh good stuff. But they come up, they found it. They have, they found the audience of people to save them.
But he goes, gets the mic. He tells them the truth of what's becoming them. All of your children are about to die. He has sounded the alarm. And no one listens, not only that, but the evil perpetrator. And this is why they're actually scarier than they look laughs at him and then gets everyone else to believe he's crazy. And then lulls them into a sense of truly magically induced stupid so that they're able to then go and lure all the children out. This is terrifying.
Sarah
This is terrifying. I feel like this is probably like just nightmare material. And this is not what the movie makers were going for, I don't think. Because I really don't think that the nineties, they were, the nineties were not known for making these movies that were like deeper, darker metaphors for things societally going on. But like, as you're talking, it really feels like this movie need needed to have been made by Jordan Peele <laugh>. And that, like, there was like a very serious undercurrent with all of this. But gosh, how terrifying, how terrifying.
Jennie
But have you ever seen those videos that they'll do online where I've seen one where they did it with toy story where they just changed the scoring in the background? Yes. And it takes something that's a very lighthearted movie. Makes it terrifying if you took this exact movie and the same story arc the same. But you just make it less pretty mm-hmm <affirmative> and you make all of the less, like doing kind of sound effect, ”doing!” type things, if you take the silliness out, does this movie become truly terrifying? And then also, who is this movie for? That was another question I kept asking myself, who is this movie?
Even for when the movie creators sat down to make this, who was this for? Was it for the parents? Cause you had that in some dis some movies now where you'll be watching a movie and you're like, oh, that joke was for the adults. Thank you, creators of the movie.
But this doesn't even feel like that because you've described correctly, these cringeworthy moments of watching this with your kids, where you have to have these weird conversations, not that talking about virginity or not is weird, but talking about it in a way where it's maligned for the entire movie, right. Is weird
Sarah
And weird in a Halloween movie. Like, and it’s a really weird setting.
Jennie
Completely. It's not like, like Sixteen Candles or something or some movie where it's like about coming of age. Right. It just is like, we're just defeating witches. Why is that a weird caveat? Why was that a requirement of the black flame candle?
Sarah
That's what I wanted to ask. Like the whole requirement issue is extremely creepy. And when you're talking about the intended audience, what do you think it was actually intended to be for?
Jennie
Who do I think Hocus Pocus was actually for, I, this is gonna seem really cynical and I am not a cynical person, but part of me feels like it could have been movie producers and writers who are like, let's make a bunch of money. Let's get these famous actors, famous actresses in here. Kind of, they had a lot of things that were very fill in the blank, like bully here, which thing here they look like this reference rap like randomly.
So randomly with the again, like someone writing it, who's out of touch at some point in the movie, if you haven't, you, you can't remember the kid goes trick or treating as a rapper, but his sister says a little leaguer.
I don't know what the, what he actually was, but his dad says, “well, if you're a rapper, your hat should be on sideways. <laugh>”
Sarah
Oh my God, I did not catch that. Ew. It's
Jennie
Painful. I'm just like, we're also watching Fresh Prince of Bel Aire right now. So it literally seems like whoever wrote that scene, I don't know if it came out before or after Fresh Prince, but they had seen something that was like that. And we're like, “I understand the rap music of the youth, let's make a reference to it.”
So who was this movie for? I feel like those people, this guy who makes the Child's Play movies and Curious George movies is in the room with his friends who have money enough to make this movie. And they think, okay, let's do these things that really fill in the blank. And then, “let's just put in some jokes that are really funny to us.”
Like, and so part of me thinks that it was partially made, you know, for people to enjoy as a light fluffy blockbuster of the season, but then also that it was like maybe 40% made for the people who made it. <laugh>
Sarah
Yeah. So I think you're right. It was totally made for a 50-year-old bunch of golfing, I hate to say this, but like movie executives that are probably male and their kids are probably already grown up <laugh> and this is just hilarious to them
Jennie
Completely. But I think that that kind of wink nudge of this movie is very heavy handed. And I think it's also why it's appealing to why I watched it maybe in college more because it has like when you're coming into that college age, you, you want to be in on the joke because you're a grown adult, but at the same time you also still kind of want innocent things. Yeah.
And, I won't belabor this point, but it was something I thought was really interesting that idea of, of youth developing and kind of innocence loss and, and it's to do with the character Thora Birch, uh, that played Danny. So when she, the actress played this, she was only 11 years old. And in a very real way, the way that narratively they're asking kids to exist in this very narrow space, she went from being in Hocus Pocus as an 11 year old to only, I was shocked when I saw how close these movies are made to only six years later being in American Beauty now, not just in American Beauty, but like it released when she was 17.
Sarah
Oh
Jennie
Yeah. And so if you've seen American Beauty, it is very sexual, very much loss of innocence, finding yourself kind of movie. And the idea that she had just turned 17. And at the time it was actually somewhat controversial how young the high school aged characters were the actors who played them, that this manifests in reality, it isn't just in the film. It isn't just in that kind of very timeless theme of innocence versus evil mm-hmm <affirmative>, but it's that you see it happen in life. And so I want to kind of circle back to the idea of what is Hocus Pocus and what it really is, and more than just what it is, but who decides what it is.
So I'm not one to usually read a definition, but I was interested in what is like the literal definition of “hocus pocus,” and “it's the meaningless talk or activity often designed to draw attention away from and disguise what is actually happening.” Oh, I'm just going to read that again. “Hocus pocus is meaningless talk or activity often designed to draw attention away from and disguise what is actually happening.” And that kind of insidious definition of hocus pocus, chills, chills.
Sarah
Complete chills. Can we just stop recording? I need to go take a shower because like, I feel so gross right now, thinking about this gross writer creating this, because it now feels very intentional.
Jennie
Yes. So hocus pocus. Max is saying,” oh, this whole myth of the Sanderson Sister, hocus pocus,” the people who decided that they were witches, they decided what was, and wasn't hocus pocus. The power brokers decide what is, and isn't hocus pocus. The man on stage at the adults, Halloween party dismissed what they were doing as “hocus pocus,” just setting up the singers to common entertain.
It's all that sleight of hand where you don't see what's really happening because the person in control the magician, the media makers, the power brokers in whatever situation they decide what is and is not hocus pocus. And no matter what reality is, no matter what the kids say to the adults, if they're entranced by that intentional misdirection, the innocence is going to get lost by necessity so that they can protect themselves. And that is sad. And that is truly scary.
And I think that watching movies like this in a group, it's an opportunity to kind of pull back the curtain. See what's there, look at why we're scared. Look at why we like to be together and get to those real universal human themes of we are scared because we don't want to be alone. We like to feel scared in movies because it reminds us we're not. And as we go into screen scare season and we go into watching these scary movies, I'm going to be very aware of that. Why is this scary to me? And what in my life makes me feel safe when the movie's over.
Sarah
Ooh, I love that. Well, why didn't you answer one of those questions cause I really want to know.
Jennie
I am scared of Hocus Pocus because on a rewatch, when you actually dig into it, if this was real, especially the ability for danger to be rebranded, to be misdirected as, “Sexy. Funny. Cool.” That's really scary. When you have kids who are becoming preteens. That's really scary because what is gonna tempt them and then will they have the awareness to notice what's happening.
And then why do I not feel scared? It doesn't sit with you the way, like something maybe like Black Phone would, right. It's not gonna give me nightmares cuz there's not spooky imagery. It's the deeper idea and the kind of meadow way it was made. But I, I like to remember, and I'll actually link to this in our show notes.
There's a Psychology Today article about five reasons we like being scared. And a lot of those reasons come from the idea that we like that adrenalin rush, but we like to know we can come back down from it and that it's not real.
And I think it's also the same reason why I like crime podcasts. I like to kind of plan for the worst hope for the best kind of situation. And I want your opinion on this too, because as I've thought about this movie and who it's for now anyway, maybe not who it was made for, but who watches it? I feel like if there is a Venn diagram, go with me here.
Sarah
I’m visualizing.
Jennie
There are three circles, right? If listeners, if you can hear me, I'm drawing them in the air with my hands. So one of those circles is people who like to watch Hocus Pocus every year, either with their girlfriends, by themselves, in the background, whether they're making candy, apples, whatever. Cause it's kind of a background movie, honestly, because otherwise you notice all these creepy references to virgins and lots of innocence. But so there's people who like to watch Hocus Pocus every year, then there's people who like crime podcasts. And then there are people, then there are people who, um, like pumpkin spice lattes. And I feel like the overlap is almost a circle possibly
Sarah
<laugh>
Jennie
What are your thoughts?
Sarah
Oh my gosh. I cannot believe that I've been so described right now. <laugh> you are right.
I'm really loving this conversation because I was expecting to have a really fun light conversation about this fun light movie. But this is an analysis. This is a let's think bigger and deeper about those terrifying things that keep us up at night, like serial killers and about our children being kidnapped. And it, you know, these are terrifying things. I'm stuck on something that you were, you were talking about a little bit earlier though, and that was just this place in which the loss of innocence lives and, how aging figures into that and is it an aging thing, because that is what they were trying to avoid.
These Sanderson sisters was, you know, of course they wanted to come back to life, but also initially they needed that, you know, virgin kid so that they could look young again, I'm obviously simplifying, but you know, is it, is it the aging or is it like this wisdom? I think of where is innocence? What is innocence and who is really the naive ones or the ignorant ones in, in this setting, in Hocus Pocus world. What are your thoughts on that? I feel like we need to talk a little more about this.
Jennie
I really appreciate that you circled back to that idea of why is innocence even a virtue? Why is that even something that people are aspiring towards and then what does that look like? Like visibly, cause you see the witches at the very beginning of the movie they have aged, they are fading, they are going away and they visibly are going away. And then they relish the like return of their physical youth whenever they get it back. And so that was something I had also noticed the fact that we're both, um, as people get older, they often will chase after not aging overlook, young, looking young, looking young, but at the same time they scorn it.
And so possibly it's bitterness possible. It's a resentment of something lost. But when you look at someone who is your former self of, of agelessness of youth, people can be very bitter and very upset about that and they can claw after it. And that actually brings me to one of our screen sparks questions. And this was something that I think that when we, we, this gets to the question of immortality and it was something that I've talked to my kids about because the idea of not aging, the idea of immortality and of living forever is used in two ways in Hocus Pocus, it is used as the motivating factor for all of this sorcery and all of this mayhem and evil, cuz they're trying to stay young.
The, the sisters are trying to live forever. That's power that's control that we don't actually have in the world. Right. But it's used as a curse for Zachary Banks. I asked my kids that this morning, before I recorded, and the question is, is immortality a blessing or a curse? And you know what? My eight year old Patrick said,
Sarah
I am dying to hear.
Jennie
He said, it's, it's a curse if you love people.
Jennie
And the, the Sanderson Sisters only love themselves and keeping that aging and only wanting to grasp your own youth and your own immortality is a sign that you're not focused on love and wanting to live forever is only really palatable if you don't care, watching people die. And that's why it was a curse for him to be turned into a cat and be helpless to watch all the ones he loved pass away.
Sarah
Right. Wow. Can you just like give yourself and Justin give himself a pat on the back cause what darn good parents you are because that is a very, that's a very wise thing. Speaking of wisdom or innocence, I'm not saying that Patrick has lost his innocence, but he's wise. That's a very wise thing to say. I really love that. That's really cool.
Jennie
Well, I think through our conversations like violet and Liam have both said things that you've referenced in other episodes where the children really do have a lot of wisdom. And I think if there's a takeaway from this or a teachable moment from Hocus Pocus, it's that kids really do have valuable wisdom and age is not necessarily a determining factor for how much wisdom someone so does or doesn't have.
And that actually brings me to what their follow up comment was. I'm not sure if it was my 10 year old Maxwell or Patrick who said this, but then they said actually the cat ended up being okay. He wasn't sad in the end because he accepted it.
He had a purpose. You can have this great loss and great sadness, but because the cat chose the factory bank character chose to have a purpose of protecting others. He gave himself another reason to keep going. And he turned that curse into something that is as good as it could be. And I think that that was also a really good lesson because you don't always have control over what you do or don't lose or what you are or not cursed with, but you can choose how you meet it. And I think that's a lot of movies that will discuss actually during, during, during October or scary movies, you have people kind of who have been cursed, who might save the day, who might choose to use their curse in a way that is, um, reaffirming.
Sarah
Absolutely. And I think, I think we'll have to challenge ourselves towards the end of Screen Scares month, we'll have to look back at all of the movies that we discuss all of our episodes and see how many of those movies actually have a child or a teen as the one that is either saving the day or aware of what's happening when the adults are sort of, you know looking at the world in a, in a clouded way and not seeing what's really happening.
Jennie
Absolutely. I love that idea. I think that's a great point that, that they, they do that a lot. And I think that to the credit of the movie creators and, and the, the content creators, I think the fact that that theme comes up so often, I think does speak to somewhat of a universal truth. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that as much as it may be easy to forget kids, I think that that's in their wisdom. It is kind of a, a universal theme that comes up. So definitely interested as we get into other movies to see where else it is.
Sarah
Oh my gosh, I'm excited. I love this conversation. Jennie, thank you so much for opening my eyes to how creepy movie executives are and how a movie like Hocus Pocus can be something that can spark some really good conversations. It doesn't have to be that background movie in the background when you're making candy apples or, you know, anything with eyeballs in your, in your kitchen.
I feel like this is a really great start for this month and I'm really glad that we talked about this. Do we wanna go through some more Screen Sparks questions because I know that listeners can have even more great conversations at home.
Jennie
Absolutely. And maybe this is a question you throw out there during the Halloween party when you're watching kind of a vacuous movie. Throw one of them in there, or comment on any of our social. I really just wanna get people's thoughts on this because these are fun conversations, especially this time of year, when you can kind of huddle around a shared movie and shared experience.
So one of them, of our Screen Sparks questions to bring the conversation off the podcast and into your life is what if we cherished innocence and welcomed aging. That gets to, I think, what you were referencing, Sarah, I'm wondering like, what do you think about that? What if we did cherish innocence and welcome aging?
Sarah
Well, I, my simple short answer is that we wouldn't have Hocus Pocus. <laugh>
Jennie
No, that's true. That's true. We wouldn't have nearly as much mayhem. I think that's probably right. And I think the next piece to that would be, is love and morality. The only reason immorality is a curse. So, um, I'm looking at you vampires, is what I wrote on that one.
Sarah
<laugh> I'm curious to talk about like, why are witches even considered scary? Like, what is it about witches? And having been people that lived in new England and who are big fans of Salem and all things, um, Halloween, I know that we've both probably visited all the things, there and really thought about this, but I'm so curious about what you think about this and what our listeners think about why in the world are witches such a big darn deal.
Jennie
I think that, I'm interested in everyone's thoughts on that. And in addition to why are witches scary? Cause I'm fascinated by them and I'm still unpacking. Why do I like that? I have some friends from Rhode Island actually that we would always have like “Witchtober” where we'd read a different witch book. And I love that for the much of October.
My quick answer to that is the other is always scary to people. And often like the real historical reality of the women who are persecuted is that they are other in some way they're different and that outsider status scares people. And I think that's a bigger conversation. Why does that scare people? Um, a smaller question, a smaller and scale, is a question we have for our last Screen Sparks, which is the witches need the book.
They, they need that spell book, which we didn't mention yet, but they have a spell book that has an eye on it. That's apparently made out of human skin, very scary stuff. But the kids think that the book becomes devoid of power after the witches die and Allison and Max, they open it up. And so that's what actually brings the witches back. That's how they find the book is the kids opening up the evil thing that seems devoid of power.
And so the question is to what extent do evil things hold the power of their owner? How does that go away? Can you think of other literary examples of the phenomena? I'm thinking like Harry Potter kind of examples mm-hmm <affirmative> of um, whenever the evil item, if it's a tangible thing, keeps its power with or without the, um, existence of its original owner or perpetrator of its use. So I think that whole topic, there's a lot of fictional examples of that, that I would like love to hear more on and hear a conversation about,
Sarah
Oh my gosh, that totally brings out the like literature nerd in me. I really want people to comment and give some examples because I think it's gonna be a really long list. I think it's gonna be a really long, interesting list for sure.
Jennie
Absolutely. I would love to know. I would absolutely love to know, and I've, I've really enjoyed having the opportunity to have this conversation and kind of unpack a seemingly simple movie and think through a lot of different questions and answers.
And, and also just to be reminded again about it's fun to be scared, but also why am I scared? And what does that say about our own lives and our own choices, and then also remembering the dangers that exist whenever you kind of let your guard down and you allowed yourself to be lulled into a sense of safety while simultaneously making sure you keep an ear out to those younger, wiser voices in society and in your life.
Sarah
Absolutely. Thank you so much for sharing your screen with us this week. Jennie, I think that I'm even more excited about what we have going on, the rest of this month.
Jennie
Me too.
Outro, both hosts
<Spooky sounding theme music>
Thanks for letting us share our screens and scares with you this week. We hope that you keep watching for the meaning behind the screen and enjoy our special spooky October Screen Scares episodes. Don’t forget to like and subscribe to Screen Cares wherever you listen to your podcasts.
Then, if you’re like Jennie and I and love digging deeper into the things that fascinate or horrify you, drop by our social media pages, check out our show notes, or visit our website at www.screencares.com for more info.
Huge special thanks to Brooks Milgate for giving our Screen Cares theme song a spooky spin for Screen Cares month.
<Spooky theme>