The Inspire Series Episode 6: Rachel Corp

We’re finishing off season one with a very special episode, featuring our very own chair Rachel Corp. Along with leading our network, Rachel is chief executive of ITN, overseeing one of the UK’s largest independent production companies.

Whether you want to know what it takes to lead a newsroom or what makes a story cut through the news agenda, Rachel shared her advice from years steering political investigations, covering conflict zones and ensuring a media business is all about its audience. Take a listen to our conversation with the former ITV News, 5 News and ITV London editor.

Marine Saint: Welcome to Inspire the Women in Journalism podcast, where we speak to the best female voices in the industry, charting their breakthroughs, career triumphs, and challenges. We are your producers. I'm Marine Saint,

Freya Shaw: And I'm Freya Shaw. Across each episode, you'll hear from a different woman who's making waves in journalism.

We ask our guests what has changed in the media industry, their career highs and lows, and how they navigate being a woman in journalism.

Our show will also feature exclusive roundtable discussions between inspiring women from every beat and background in the media.

Marine: We are thrilled to be joined by our very own chair, Rachel Corp. Along with leading our network of female journalists, Rachel is Chief executive of ITN, overseeing one of the UK's largest independent production companies.

Freya: There are a few people better equipped to share with us what it takes to lead a newsroom today. Rachel was former editor of ITV News, five News and ITV London.

She has brought award-winning stories to the public eye from political investigations in Westminster to on the Ground War reporting around the world. Rachel, thank you so much for joining us on the show.

Rachel Corp: Thank you for having me. It's an absolute pleasure.

Freya: Starting off when you started your career at ITN as a trainee, what was your first break into tv? Do you think that's a traditional route in?

Rachel: I mean, that was, I suppose, my break into television. I was working as a freelance radio reporter, more in current affairs, consumer affairs Arts, which I absolutely loved. , And then this opportunity came up and it's like, oh, it's television, and it's news.

And I'd just been, , doing some work I'd taken myself to, to Bosnia where the war was going on in Bosnia and so was feeling quite newsy with the sort of stuff I was doing and had seen the work of some of my television colleagues out there. So I thought, this sounds like a fantastic, fantastic opportunity.

I guess once I'd started, we were quite a big cohort of trainees because ITN was pitching to be the supplier for the newly launching channel five. And so we were all given slightly different training, quite a lot of multi-skilling, which was the idea for the show. So we all moved there, and I, and I suppose that was the first big break as a proper job.

And in telly, and it was great fun. It was all about learning and breaking rules and pushing boundaries and trying something different. And I did a mixture of news editing on the news desk. But everyone had to be multi-skilled. So come the main show. I would also then do studio camera. And if you were on a slightly different shift, I would suddenly have to direct in the gallery. And I also did quite a bit of updates presenting around that time. So it was, it was a whole range of things. So as a way of breaking it was brilliant because it showed the sort of whole gamut of it.

Marine: That sounds so exciting and what a range of experiences to start off your career with tv. I wonder, because you spoke about being in radio before, what made you decide to move to tv? What kind of made you pick that medium over radio?

Rachel: And I loved radio and I still love radio. And I think it was a really brilliant discipline. I was reporting and you crafted your own packages and I think radio's so fantastic for storytelling, and particularly that discipline around sound and how things, how that package has to come across. I suppose I said that that telly slightly came along and, and then I grabbed that opportunity – it's still broadcast. It was telling stories in a very different way because then it's using the pictures, as well. And I think one of the key things about successful television reporting is making the words and the pictures work together and offer something a bit different that adds to the sum of it.

I think what's really exciting now is that you don't have to choose. So journalists working at ITN, which you might see as television. They're writing copy, they are doing sound for podcasts. It's using all of those media. So I think, whilst I might have chosen a telly path at some point, I think now it's less clear, particularly I think it's important a lot of people coming out of university or college or training come with all these skills, and we used to traditionally de-skill them, so I lost my ability to edit radio packages, whereas now you come into a, a very varied career, very varied media and you can use all of those things. So I welcome that transition really in the industry.

Freya: I guess you were saying that when you started out, you were still quite multi-skilled from behind the camera to doing the production. Did you think that there was then much of a shift when you made that change to broadcast? Whether there's anything that surprised you, perhaps.

Rachel: The biggest shift for me, which I, I really liked and still like, was I moved from working quite on my own, to working in a team and I think it's one of the best bits about our bit of the industry and everybody's key in it because, yes, you might have the reporter, but their storytelling is nothing without a highly skilled camera operator who might do the editing as well, or the reporter might do the editing. But again, it doesn't work unless you've got that. You've got producers, sometimes you have sound people, you have the news desk, you have that whole range of people, and then, then you have that sense of achievement together of, of what you manage to, to get across for audiences.

So I think that was the biggest shift. Having said that, there was a lot to learn in radio and, and particularly 'cause I was a freelance reporter. One of the things that really taught me was how to spot a story. Because if I was going to earn any money or continue to be able to afford my travel or to go out, I needed to find a story that nobody else was telling.

I had to pitch it and I had to sell it, and then I had to create it and there was nobody else to rely on. And sure you had producers who helped or commissioners or encouraging editors. , But just that ability to find a story from reading newspapers, talking to your friends, listening to things, hearing things picking up, and I think that was a brilliant skill that you don't necessarily get working in a team.

Marine: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, you really have kind of opened our eyes to. The amount of different elements and people that one story that we might see aired takes and obviously a big part of your career has been leading these newsrooms, leading these teams. When did you shift to the editorial side and the leadership side, and when did you realize that that was the kind of career that you wanted?

Rachel: Yeah, no, thank you because I'm not sure I ever sat around thinking I want to be management. 'cause I think a lot of people don't. I mean, some people might.

My job, the job I loved, was being on the road as a field producer and field news editor and going everywhere around the UK or around the world, and working in teams and just brilliant. And it might be the breaking news stories or the, the big moments of history or, or original stuff that we'd done. And I knew that was always going to be my favorite job ever.

I also knew I couldn't do it forever. It takes over your life. Some people do, but it's exhausting. And I did want to have a family. Not that that means you can't do it, but for me, I, I sort of knew something needs to change in that sense. So I did have my two daughters. And moved into a slightly different area at that point. Moved to work for a production company, where I was running what was then called their web channels is what we call Digital Now, digital video. And I have to say, I mistakenly thought that my time at the news was probably over. My husband was a foreign correspondent. He was traveling and was very happy to support his career in that sense.

I just thought news, I can't do that again. I mentioned this and it's not quite the question you asked, but I was very happy that the production company I was working in, I was made redundant. And I've mentioned this because I think it's worth everyone knowing that the careers aren't smooth.

And certainly I didn't sit down one day and go, I'm going to pluck my path to management. You know, I was slightly forced to rethink by having been made redundant. And it's horrible. It's not personal, but it's still a horrible thing to go through. And so I, I looked back at, you know, what, can I do and who do I know?

And there was a role going as a news editor at ITV News. And I remember thinking, well, I never wanted to be a news editor. I avoided that, but actually thinking, hang on, these are all the skills I know. I can work three very long days a week and be full-time, and then I can have four days a week with my children.

And a very good manager at that point who ringfenced some days for me. And suddenly I thought, actually I can, I can come back into the news. And I knew lots of people, so I had some. I didn't have to spend all my time getting to know new people. I had some currency in that sense. So I found myself doing news editing and then thought, well, if I'm doing that, then I want to do a bit more.

And I took over managing the assistant news editors and developing careers, which I thought was really fulfilling and enjoying working with people. And that just then led to, , running UK news at ITV News because I, I knew it and I could step up to it, and there was a challenge. So it was just one challenge after another came and I, I think I enjoyed it. I saw the impact I could have through it, not just by being on the road. And, as every opportunity came up, I took it and embraced it so it wasn't a sort of a plan or suddenly I'm gonna be management that here's an opportunity, I'm gonna take it and see where it leads.

Freya: That's so interesting. It's, I also think, you know, both me and Marine are very early career. Like you said, perhaps management isn't necessarily one of the jobs that we would consider. What does a typical day look like for you? What does your job entail for those that might not know or might not have considered it?

Rachel: I think it, I am gonna go back at you with probably if you, if you answered this question. Because I think it's, the thing about being a journalist no day is the same. , And I think that's one of the brilliant things about our industry, because, you know, a huge thing breaks. Slightly less so for me now, it would have to be really big for something to break. Then you throw everything else outta the window. I have to say a lot of it is meetings, which sounds really boring and I know it is. I do quite a lot of catching up in the morning of our programs from the night before because we now have three flagship news programs that are all an hour long. It's quite hard to watch them when they're all going outside.

My first very set thing of the day is I hold a cross company editorial meeting at 10 o'clock, and it's where we have representatives, smaller newsrooms come in. And also our Channel five daytime shows and talk through, not in great detail, but the top lines are the main stories they're covering and how they're covering it, and they'll raise any issues out of it.

Now I am actually editor in chief, which doesn't mean I tell everyone what to do every day. I think that would be the most frustrating thing for an editor. They need to work out what they're doing. But if anything goes wrong or anything serious, it does come back to me. So I will just check whether there's anything that's perhaps a bit risky or needs further discussion. Also in that meeting we have representatives from our safety teams. So if there's something going on that's quite dangerous at the moment, we've got consideration around Southport a year on from everything that happened there. We've got Gaza, we've got other stories, Ukraine, so we might just sense check some of that in there as well.

The legal teams will be in there, so if there's something contentious, I don't know if there's a court case about children. We might talk about some of the restrictions in there. And we have our communications team, so that's a sort of set piece from there. Anything can happen. I might be meeting up with members of my team, find what's clear on, we might be talking policy, we might be preparing strategy. It might be more of the, of the high risk. It could be all sorts of things. It's talking to people externally. That's a lovely part of the day.  But I do represent the company externally, so there's quite a lot of that.

There's also, I have a board sitting with shareholders, making sure the clients are happy and really making sure we're, we're aligning. There's also a lot around culture, which is something I particularly care about. I think everybody should anyway, but just making sure that we are operating in a way that's the best thing for the company and the best way for everybody to thrive and survive within that.

And then there'll be just key topical things. And at the moment, as I said, it's really tough around Gaza, for example, and there's a lot of really difficult imagery coming in. So we are discussing how we can protect staff and mitigate as much as we can. We can't do all of it, or it might be thinking about do we need to bring some extra support people around Southport? So it's very different every single day. And that's, I guess, what keeps it fun and exciting.

Marine: Do you think that your extensive experience, you know, on the field as field producer, reporting abroad. Has that helped prepare you for how to kind of tackle some of these difficult stories that we see today and lead your team through that? Because, you know, you've seen these conflicts up close. These stories are told in different formats now, but your experience must kind of help inform others and reassure them that there's a way that you can take a break, that you can report these things ethically and, and with care?

Rachel: I hope so. I mean, there's lots in, lots in what you said. I mean, I think on the high risk bit and making decisions, you know, I want to protect the safety of our staff before anything else. But I also know that we have a job to do and we have to tell a story. And so for me it's about, how do we tell the story, not. Is it too dangerous to tell it or not?

And that might be just talking through, what are our plan Bs, what's our escape route? Where are their hospitals? Who we can call on should, should there be a problem? I like to think, yes, I understand the toll it can take, as well and particularly. I've said this quite a bit over the last five years.

We've had very long running stories for which there is no break at the end of your working day. Because they're stories that we are living and breathing, whether it's COVID or Brexit or Ukraine or Gaza. Lots of people affected by that Israel side and Gaza side. So I think I understand that living and breathing it.

And I hope that sort of comes into play when we think ahead a bit how people are. I also know that the passion that's there, that people want to tell stories, how much people do care about what we're doing and, and getting it to audiences, so. This is not just about running a business.

We're a commercial organization and I want us to thrive to protect ITN. But there are people in there who are absolutely on a mission for our audiences, and it's, it's getting that balance as well.

Freya: One thing that sort of seems like a very central theme in everything you've discussed from your day to day to your career is adaptability in the industry and changing and evolving.

How do you see maybe TV audiences specifically, how do you see the audiences changing and evolving in your career, and how do you adapt to that?

Rachel: I think I'd see them as audiences overall now. And a lot has changed in where people consume, maybe how they consume, but I still think the basics are there.

People want really compelling, interesting storytelling. That is relatable and relevant to them. And you know, we've got that duty in particular, that public service remit to get those stories to people where they want to consume them. So, you know, in the past they said they would've just turned up the telly.

Now they might want to get it online. They want to get through socials. And we've, we've got to do that and adapt to it. I still think the heart of what we do stays the same. So it has to be that trusted, impartial news. Really hugely important for us is eye witness journalism. So it's going to the heart of a story and it's talking to the people right at the center of that and the relevant people.

And, you know, a really well told story has impact, whether it's the lead story on news at 10, or Channel four news or Channel five news, or if it's on a one of our YouTube channels, it just might be that we, we changed some of the way It's, presented and maybe some of, , the way the narrative works.

You know, if you are doing a beautiful six minute film on channel four news television, you might open with 45 seconds of stunning scenery. If it's going on YouTube, you want it to have impact right from the top. So you might change that opening scene, but it's still the same story. And it's still with the same elements to it.

There are some stories that work differently and some stories that perhaps. We would only put on some of our digital outlets. One of the things I like is that you have much more capacity, so things that might not make a busy news bulletin, can get elsewhere. But one of the things that we do specifically at ITN is our television content has to comply to a certain standard for Ofcom. As you'll know, we don't have to do that for digital.

We choose to do it so people know that it's the same quality wherever they are. But I think it's a really challenging time at the moment because linear telly is still really important and those programs have to be made to a really high standard.

We also have to be on all these other platforms as well. I might be wrong on this – I feel like this is probably the busiest time we'll ever have where we're having to make so much to be everywhere. As the move towards digital continues at a pace and we move away from linear, then we'll be focusing more on that space.

But in this interim bit, we have to be everywhere for everybody. But I say I still think that that storytelling and that that cuts through, wherever people are.

Marine: You kind of touched on this with YouTube, but I wonder how you feel other kind of social media platforms are shaping this new direction. Across ITN. I know that social media is a big part of ITV news. I get it a lot on live feed. I wonder how that's helped with the kind of stories that you've been able to bring to light those ones that, as you say, maybe wouldn't be on a traditional bulletin, but work really well on other platforms.

Rachel: I mean, the big rise over the last couple of years for everybody has been TikTok, , more than two years.

But the big acceleration has been, and I think it's really, really exciting. Because some of it will be just what you call bog standard news. It might, it might be a lead in from a television bulletin that does really well, or, or a clip from somebody's life, a Two-way or it's gonna be bespoke.

The ITV politics TikTok account does really bespoke stuff and it flies and, and quite often content is seen by millions of people. So those are slightly different stories or slightly different angles on it. But it's a huge rise across ITV news channel 4 news, channel 5 that's shaped quite a lot.

I think what the teams are particularly good at doing, is using some of that, taking some of that short form content and also putting it elsewhere. So it might work for Instagram, it might work for YouTube shorts, but you've still got the longer form stuff that you're doing, , for YouTube or podcasts or as or on ITVX on streaming.

They sort of play into each other a bit, but it's room absolutely for the short, the medium and, and the longer now sort of refers back to us saying about we have to do everything everywhere, , at the moment. But it's exciting. It's a place to experiment and as you referred to in your question, come up with some slightly different stories, whether it's around, , this brilliant investigation forwarded recently on whitening skin.

Or whether it's about botched beauty processes that ITV News did, Five have done a whole lot of stuff around Excel bullies. It's finding those stories that resonate and you have that instant feedback as well on what's working or not. So you know, you know what your audiences want.

Freya: I think also related to TikTok, one thing me and Marine often told as sort of young journalists starting out is to really find a home in social media and to start in social media and then grow into the newsroom.

Is that something that you would advise as well to sort of really understand audience and how to tell stories and find stories on social media? Is that advice you'd give to young journalists?

Rachel: Yes in that I think you have to, and we should do, I don't think it's the only thing to do, because I think there's also, let's not slip into click bait and only because sometimes there are stories that are really important to tell and they've got a slower burn or a longer tail.

And so just having something that flies that morning on TikTok isn't necessarily there to, but I think it's a really good way to experiment. I think that feedback is brilliant. , I suppose as long as you're getting positive feedback. You know, there are some platforms where you might just get a pilot and that might, might put you off.

I think you can't not be on socials, I guess is what I'm saying, but it's take it as part of the round as well in your feedback. But a great place to look for stories or to look for content or look for angles to add to it as well.

Marine: We were also interested because you've covered a lot of under-reported stories, , particularly topics like sexual harassment,approaches to, you know, stories with Trump's presidency, war in Ukraine, COVID, the list goes on. I wonder if you're seeing stories today or you are being brought stories today by your various teams, which you think we need more of. Are there still topics which we're ignoring in the news culture? There are ongoing stories which might lose a bit of steam as we go on, but I wonder what are some of the stories that we're missing today?

Rachel: You raise a really key, really interesting point and something I'm really proud of. Our newsrooms at the moment. There is so much news, news. Going on whether it's Gaza as we've talked about or whether it's, all the political turmoil, you know, there's a whole lot of crisis going on in the UK as well that needs reporting and it would be very easy just to follow the news agenda. So-called news agenda. I think what our newsrooms continue to do, which is important, is put an emphasis on original journalism and finding room for that. Whether that's, if I think the last six or seven months, you know, channel four News has done all their work around abuse in the Church of England.

ITV has done a lot around the far right. I mentioned Channel five, done a whole lot of stuff around Excel bullies. They're just an example of different stories that's original journalism that you will not see anywhere else. And I think it’s vital that we keep doing that. Yes, we need to tell the big stories, but the things that have really cut through for us have been those other stories.

It's part of our public service remit, but I just think that's what makes us stand out as well. I think there are always stories that, that, that we need to keep looking out for. And again, as I said, that's where digital is fantastic because you can get stuff on. I think, even in those stories that are obvious, like Gaza. They're tough. We've, we've got to keep finding ways to tell them, particularly because we can't be there. I constantly slightly worry about keeping up the narrative on Ukraine, particularly when there's other things going on. So even those big stories, it's making sure we are getting them in enough.

I was a bit concerned when Trump took office that we might see what we saw the first time round that he absolutely dominated. He would wake up and tweet and we'd all have to do pieces about it. I think now it's so impactful what he's doing. It's policy, he is doing things that are impacting the world.

So we do need to be reporting on that. But it's making sure that we are not missing everything else that's happening in the US and the world. And I, and I think a lot of that is continuing to go back to the field and talk to people and not just assume that you know what the story is sitting in the office.

But I do think, I think that the social issues, the everyday life, every life in the UK particularly, it's a really easy one to think, no, you know, we'll do the, we'll do the foreign feature or we'll, we'll do the breaking news. Just going back and reminding ourselves what life is like in Britain at the moment.

I don't really wanna call it unglamorous, but it's, it is the everyday stuff as well as remembering to, to tell that. But the people really to be asking this to, I'd say, are our, our younger journalists and our digital teams. Because they're the ones surfacing stuff that maybe I'm not reading and it's, it's continuing to make space for that as well.

Freya: When we spoke about TikTok, you mentioned sort of getting feedback and that sort of instant feedback. One, you are reporting on those bigger stories that perhaps, take the investigation you did or the ITV did into backstreet cosmetic procedures.

How do you receive feedback and what makes a successful news story for you on those bigger topics?

Rachel: I mean, the instant feedback on socials is just seeing how much it's shared and it's flying and, and you can see the, the interest on that certainly. I think one of the things particularly we're trying to do when we think about impact is.

Don't judge it solely for this, but when you see that maybe, an MP picks it up or a committee picks it up, or you see a change in the law, or calls for a change in the law, I think that's where you know that you are having impact a bit, a bit further beyond.

I think one of the things, if you look at Partygate, which you may have mentioned, was a story that we felt was important to tell.

But when we set out to tell it, we were, we didn't want it just to be, here's a Westminster story, here's a political story we wanted to think about. How do we make this relatable? So we, as well as doing the political package also went back out to people around the country and did a, like, let's just take ourselves back to where you were when these alleged parties were going on, and, and how do you feel about it, and not just what politicians were, but thinking about, how it impacted on people's lives, and that was one of the things that I think gave it so much more impact because we related it to people and then that groundswell we picked up on, so it wasn't just so-called Westminster bubble story. This became a national conversation. And I think that's when you realize, okay, I'm saying this impartially, you know, we are doing the right thing here because we are telling a story that people want to hear about.

Marine: Absolutely. I feel like a lot of, especially young journalists today, they can see the impact that their stories might have with social media views, but there's also that policy change, which. If you really believe in a cause as well, adds a great deal of value to your reporting and to all the effort that goes into it.

Rachel: The bits that we don't talk about. But when you have worked with a family or an individual who've gone through the most, unimaginable the worst things in their life, when you hear back from them privately, thank you, or you did a good job, or you're told our story, that as a journalist I think is the most important thing.

Very humbling, and that's again, is when you know you've done something right. I think. But I say we don't tend to talk about that rightly so.

Marine: I wonder how you kind of guide people now in, in your role as Chair of women in journalism, because you've given us so much advice, so much insight into, you know, how do you steer a newsroom?

How do you pick the stories that are gonna lead the agenda of the day? I wonder if those were kind of elements that you bring to your work now for women in journalism and, and how you would pitch it to journalists who should be making the most of the kind of network that, that we have here.

Rachel: There was a bit of me that thought, really, do we need to be still talking about women journalism? Like I see so many brilliant women leaders and, actually, it's very rare. I mean, I think that then the vast majority in a room is women. We are in all sorts of roles, but then talking to women members, I thought actually there's still a whole load of work that needs doing.

And there are unique pressures and challenges that women face as journalists whether it's how they're treated externally or experience people passing onto the younger ones. We all, , get something out of it. And I think, particularly women in journalism, networking events are fantastic because you learn from every one, but I think it is mentoring is key. And I, any mentoring ought to be two way mentoring, I think. , But also the training and the education with so many people freelance now or doing multiple jobs.

Get your head around that or, or doing your own finances or all different aspects of journalism. And I just think the inspirational stuff is brilliant as well. I'm, I'm so proud on that. And, and learn from each other in that sense. So, that your original question was a good question. It was around how much I bring of what I've done to that.

Yes, I hope so. Which resonate, which things that have been important for me are getting outside London. You know, that it is, the, the world doesn't just exist in London and it's one of the things we've been doing with women in journalism, doing more events outside London, expanding that, diversifying in, in every part of that word, that we are, inviting all the different sorts of women who are being journalists at the moment.

And also wherever they're working in the industry. Because careers are so different now that we are not just covering TV, newspapers, radio, that those sort of broader journalistic careers are encompassed. And I, I think those have all been parts of how I've worked as a leader within ITN as well.

Freya: This is something you've touched on already. How do you see women in journalism continuing to grow in say, sort of the next five years? Do you anticipate it holding that same role?

Rachel: The inspiration, absolutely. But I not, but, and I think we should, adapt that to the different role models.

So it, it is not necessarily the, just the seasoned war correspondent –  there are women inspiring age 23 as well. So it's all those aspects of it and people doing very different things. Absolutely more around the country. I'd love to see us. Being represented in sort of all, all four corners in that sense.

And, yes, continuing to diversify. I think as well, the main thing is being really agile to respond to what our members want. And changing. And I'm sure three years ago nobody was thinking about AI workshops. Now we're planning a whole series of them 'cause one isn't enough.And so I think it's just staying alert to not just have a program where we think about things for the next year.

Marine: And how has mentoring shaped your own career, and networking influenced your own career?

Rachel: I haven't really got a mentor at the moment. I’d quite like one. And I have lots of, lots of people I talk to, lots of inspiring women I speak to actually.

But no, I think it's always good to have a mentor. I would say I probably only have more structured mentoring. I've been involved in the last 15 years, but I think I probably sought out people in my life who I could turn to and get advice from, and I was, I was very lucky.

I think having structured mentoring is much, much better now. And I think, it needs to have a reason and be quite clear, and I think that the WIJ mentoring is great in that sense. As that I think you, the mentor has to. Go into it with as much a learning mindset as the mentee, and it's such a privilege, as a leader to be hearing more of that and hope that we can sort of pass on. So I learned some of the mistakes are made like, don't really have to make the same mistakes.

But it's also said it's not the be on end all because just something that worked for me. You won't necessarily work for somebody else. But being able to listen, , and introduce, one of the things I do think is quite key is sharing our networks. When you get to my position, you've met a lots of people along the way.

So if you can help match people together, as part of that, I, I think that is quite key as well. Networking is a funny one. And I'm sure everyone's told you need to go network. You need to go network. And sometimes it can be quite hard. And you also need to think of the point and what's your ask.

And even thinking about what you ask, what your ask is, can be quite hard this way. I always encourage people at the WIJ networking events. Just walk up to anybody because they've got something and, and you could just say, what do you do? Or Why are you here? , And I always get, I give people a bit of advice actually, generally in networking. If you're in a room where you know nobody, it can be intimidating. You just walk up and say, can I join your conversation? And then you are automatically part of it. So yeah, I would just encourage all the network working aspect of it as well.

Freya: On the topic of good advice and mentoring. To end the podcast, we like to ask people for a piece of advice to share with our listeners.

What is the best piece of advice you've received, which has shaped your career in media?

Rachel: It's really interesting that one, and I'm going to go for a couple, if that's all right. Because the one that's very front of mind for me is more as a leader at my level of leadership. So it wasn't the whole of my career was, the last mentor I had was when I was, editor of ITV News and we were building up to COVID and we didn't know how disruptive it would be, but we thought it could be, more disruptive than it was in terms of trying to work.

And, I was talking to my mentor and said, oh, I'm gonna roll up my sleeves. I can run the news desk if necessary and I could do this and this.

And he said, stop. Don't even think about doing that. Somebody has to sit over, keep the overview, stay strategic, think what's the next thing. He was so right.

And actually staying, staying out of the weeds and staying there, for leadership for me was really, really important. And I think that does apply for all things. But I think if I'm thinking about the earlier stage of my career, it's absolutely that value of going out and eyewitness journalism. And I worked with somebody who was much more experienced than me when I went to the war in Bosnia.

And he literally talked me like, go out, talk to those people, find out what's going on, and that's where you get the story. It's not from reading things online or going to the experts, and that's always, always stuck with me. My piece of advice, if I'm allowed to give one to people is, it's a sort of whatever stage of, of your career.

If you have a good idea. You will stand out and you should always speak up. We, the most senior people, we run out of ideas. We miss what's going on. We might not have heard about them. You could be the work experience person in, or somebody who joined a, a few weeks ago. Just, just come up with it. You might, and your idea might spark something else, and it doesn't have to be the next big award-winning investigation or a scoop.

It could just be an interesting angle or a person and, and your ideas. Those suggestions are absolutely as valid as those of us who've been doing it for many, many years.

Freya: That's incredibly helpful. I think, you know, both me and Marine are starting out in newsrooms at the moment and navigating that space for ourselves. That's definitely something that I know we'll both take on board, yeah, it's incredibly helpful to hear your advice.

Rachel: I'm delighted and congratulations 'cause it's, it's not an easy thing to do, but I know how many people, , how many women journalists will be really benefiting from having this and listening in. So well done. And thank you very much for all your doing.

Freya: Thank you very much for joining us. It's been an absolute pleasure to have you.

Marine: Thank you so much.