Intro (00:00:02):
This is Screen Cares. I'm Jennie and I'm Sarah. And we welcome you to our place to connect beyond the screen and watch better together.
Jennie:
I'm excited to share this movie with our listeners. So Sarah, can you tell me, what movie did you bring to us this week?
Sarah:
This week, we're going to be talking about my favorite movie, at least my favorite right now. And it's a weird movie to be one of your favorites because it's so abusive. Uh, but our movie for this week is Whiplash from 2014.
Jennie:
That is such an interesting, um, and compelling introduction to a movie that it is both one of your favorite, but also abusive. I think that that's kind of unexpected, but also speaking to the fact that movies can kind of fill different buckets at different times in life. I'm excited to learn more about how this fits into your cannon of top 15. So tell me a little bit more, if you can, about Whiplash and, um, also who you would recommend viewing this movie with.
Sarah:
According to IMDB, “Whiplash is about a promising young drummer who enrolls at a cutthroat music conservatory where his dreams of greatness are mentored by an instructor who will stop at nothing like abuse to realize the student's potential.”
I can't continue without talking about some of the performances. One of which was the absolutely brilliant, magnificent JK Simmons who did win best supporting actor for this movie. Tom Cross for film editing, Craig Mann, Ben Wilkins, and Thomas Curley, who also won for best sound mixing. It got a couple other nominations, including adapted screenplay, Grammy nominations, tons and tons of accolades. I really, really feel like they were all so deserved. What I love so much about this movie is also that it feels so authentic. And I think some of that is because the director Damien Chazelle was also in a competitive jazz band when he was in high school.
And so if he had a lot of personal experience to sort of draw these characters that he was writing and creating and, and then directing on screen, I bring that up because the tagline for that original short film was suffering is the soul of greatness. And that's definitely something that I want to talk about, a little bit later.
Before I do that, the rating this week for this movie, stay with me: I would actually say Little Screen, but I don't mean Little Screen like our little ones. I mean really “Little Big Screen.” I'm thinking mostly about my, my oldest kiddo who just turned 14. Um, there is a lot of language that is completely offensive and abhorrent in every way, but I think the content of the movie and the story and the things that the conversations that you can have with older kids in particular, especially those who are maybe thinking about a creative field or involved in, in anything that has anything to do with accomplishments or achievement, you can have such great conversations with your kids.
Sarah (00:03:31):
I also feel a little bit like a hypocrite because I have yet to watch it with him mostly because it is such an intense movie that I just, I had not felt like he was ready for that yet. But I think I may try to watch that with him. If you do watch this with a teen or an adolescent, really with anybody who has a heart, I would say this is a rated R film and it's rated our because of language and really just absolutely intense verbal abuse. And I think that it would be really, really important to keep that in mind with whoever you're going to be watching it with. It's just intense. I don't think I've ever heard as many insults in as creative and painful ways put together as, as JK Simmons delivers his lines in this movie.
Jennie (00:04:36):
I think thatI am so fascinated to hear that dichotomy of rating; it's rated R but our Screen Shares Rating from you is, is Little. I definitely think that first, any viewers who haven't watched this movie and you want it to be a, a surprise, doesn't feel like quite the right word, because very upfront you find out like, Hey, this guy's the worst. But like Sarah said, do be warned if, if, um, displays of abuse and gas lighting and, um, verbal abuse are triggering for you. This might be a really challenging movie. I, it was challenging for me. Was it challenging for you, Sarah? And do you think that that might be why it's been difficult for you to kind of brace yourself to, I'm going to say expose your son to it. And also if you can remind me how old he is, just so that listeners have a context, you may have already said it, but how old you would recommend, because I definitely think that it's a very thoughtful exposure.
I think that preparing someone you love or care about who's going out into the bigger world this could definitely be useful to them.
Sarah:
Absolutely. And I think, you know, it's hard. So, so my kiddo just turned 14. And I think that he is a little more emotionally prepared for the topics that are in this movie than in maybe other movies that other people would have their young teens watch. I wouldn't feel comfortable giving an age for this because I think that we know our kids best and we know where they are in their lives.
And you and I, Jennie, I think we watch movies a little bit differently than we probably had before we had kids because before a lot of it was just entertainment or you're enjoying the film as an art form, but now we're able to use these films and these, these shows and other things as a teachable moment for our kids without sending sounding too contrived.
And right now where he is and his life, he's about to enter into a really intensive high school. He's a musician. And that is a competitive world. As we see in Whiplash, I think that this is a really good time for he and I to watch this movie with me, giving some sort of pre-warning, um, and some probably pausing in the middle of the movie and then at the end, kind of checking in with him and, and recapping it all andreally letting him express what he's thinking and feeling and how he relates or doesn't relate to the movie.
So I know that was a lot, but I just, I think it's so important for parents to think about where their kids are in their lives and not be afraid of watching a movie like this with really intense language, with a, with a kid that might need to talk with their parent about some of the themes and just heavier topics that they might see in a movie.
Jennie (00:07:29):
Right. And, and I know there's a relationship in the movie between the main character and his father where there's definitely care and love from the father, but a lack of, um, two way communication. And, and like, I, I think that the thoughtful way that you're approaching this with your son is definitely, hopefully something that could help shelter him from that, or equip him with a, you know, a safety line to you if he gets into one of these settings.
And that, that leads me to one thing I was wondering while watching this, I don't, I did not go to a fine arts, high school or college or anything like that. And so this world of high performance music and music culture is something that's kind of foreign to me. I was wondering if you could kind of describe to me first, like, what is music culture like at these schools and what's your experience with it?
And then how does your experience with music culture and these schools, um, how is that reflected in Whiplash?
Sarah:
That's such a great question. And, and like with everything I say, say what I'm about to say with a caveat, that what my experience was is probably not everybody's experience. And I know for sure that it's not reflective of all music educations everywhere. I went to a performance art magnet school, and I was in the music department there and it was intensive. And instead of just taking your sort of basic classes, all of our electives were replaced with things like music, history, music theory. I was also involved in the band. I'm a band nerd. And I also competed in lots of extra competitions outside of school.
Jennie:
What did you play?
Sarah:
I played the flute, which it's, that's a whole other thing too, because if you play an instrument that is very popular, you unfortunately have a lot more competition than say, if you play the harp where there just aren't many harpists.
So it's, it's almost more challenging to try to be at the top when there's a lot of other competitors that are also trying to get there at this high school. There were definitely some moments that were really, really hard for me. I had studied flute from the age of probably four or five.
And my mom was actually a professional musician. She was also a flute player. She was a music teacher. She had a bachelor's and a master's in various music related things. So music was always around me and music at not just the enjoyment level, but in the performance competitive level. It was a little bit awkward because not everybody had been playing since they were four or five. And so automatically I was competing with juniors and seniors for their chairs in, in our band. And that did not make me the favorite <laugh> in my section as a freshman when I was doing that. Um, and that was a little bit hard there. That was it. It's an interesting place to be, to want to fit in, but also to be trying to achieve this thing that everybody else is trying to achieve.
Jennie (00:10:42):
Did you feel like that success just like the character in this movie is pursuing kind of put a spotlight on you and did that spotlight create more opportunities for friendship or did it like in the movie push people away from you?
Sarah:
I think in some ways it helped me to learn about leadership in a way that I wouldn't have without it. And what I mean by that is that in a concert band or in a marching band, there are section leaders. And when you become a section leader, your job is to basically make sure that your team of fellow instrumentalists are all playing together, are all successful, are all happy and engaged and you can't do that by being a big fat jerk.
You can't do that by wanting to shine the whole time. You're not being a soloist in that moment. You are there to support your team. You're there to be a good role model. You're there to figure out, okay, what is happening with my section? Why is half of the section always off or how I hear something somebody's out of tune? Who is it? And then when you figure those things out, <laugh>, it's not your job to finger point and make somebody feel belittled. It's your job to pull somebody aside and say, “Hey, I, I kind of noticed on like measures 30 and on, something was sounding a little weird. Do you need a little help with that?” And figuring out ways to just make people feel as excited about music and the piece that you're playing without taking away their own individual experience.
Jennie (00:12:43):
Wow. That, that is fascinating. And definitely the kind of insight that I had no idea about. I had not ever really considered what a team sport, if you will, that, um, a orchestra or band is, and in the movie, it doesn't necessarily do much to dismiss my misconception because it definitely seems like every man for himself. But it sounds like from your description that the most successful leaders or musical groups have someone who is able to have that gift for identifying a problem and then thoughtfully resolving it. And that takes more interpersonal skills than I had really appreciated. So if you are say a first chair flutist, is that the correct word?
Sarah:
Do flute player. I don't know. “Flutist” always seems so weird to me and I don't think either are wrong. Just say flute player. It feels better.
Jennie (00:13:44):
Could I also say like sister to Lizzo who plays flute? Would that be a fair generalization for all flute players?
Sarah:
Yeah. I, I would take that. Any association with her is good by me.
Jennie:
Okay, perfect. That's what it is. Um, sister of Lizzo <laugh> and that is for all people. As the first chair of an instrument, is that a requirement? I had no idea that you actually had to help lead your group.
Sarah:
It may be different in certain ensembles and a lot of it has to do with what the director or conductor wants, but typically that is the way it works, whether your section is small, you know, usually like the oboe section is not huge. There might be just a few or whether it's larger, like in a full orchestra with all of the violin players, that's always sort of the role of the first chair.
Jennie:
Mm-hmm <affirmative> Okay. Well, that's interesting. It's um, so that's helpful for me to understand this, this, um, film more too. Does the depiction of music culture and this ensemble kind of dynamic, does it seem accurate in Whiplash and you cause you've mentioned that it's a very authentic movie and if it is accurate, how, and, and if it isn't quite, where does it diverge?
Sarah (00:15:00):
So in my experience, I was lucky for the most part, I had exceptional conductors and directors and other section leaders too, when I was learning who were all about the teamwork side of things, but there is an undercurrent always of being the best. And there's always an undercurrent of, especially in ensemble work: You don't really want to stick out in a bad way. And there are lots and lots of ways as a musician that you can screw up and stick out.
And I had one teacher one time say that when I was really full of myself, I think I was maybe in eighth grade and just wanting to be the loudest flute player, wanted everybody to hear how fantastic I was, cause I was an annoying little 12 year old that if, “if people in the audience can hear me in an ensemble, then I am failing,” and he didn't really say it in the nicest way. It was not quite JK Simmons level, uh, but it was close. And that really stuck with me. And I think that sort of informed how I tried to play in ensemble work going forward.
When you are a musician, there is just a natural competitiveness that exists. You're competing for chairs, you're competing for seats, you're competing for entrance into a conservatory or anything really. And on every single level from elementary on there are competitions. What's really interesting is that you tend to see the same people at these competitions. Because of that, you can't really get by, by being a jerk all the time. And that's something that I did not feel was necessarily portrayed in the movie.
There's so much competition for the seats in this jazz band, that Miles Teller, who is this main percussionist is trying to get into. He's trying to get a seat. He's a freshman there at Shafer Conservatory in New York, this jazz band that's directed by JK Simmons character. Terrence Fletcher is a big deal. It's the top. And it's not just the top at that school. It's the top everywhere.
And so there are these percussionist that are all vying for this seat and they're not necessarily supportive of one another. They're kind of hoping that somebody's going to screw up so that they can take the, take the seat.
And I think some of that is true. There have definitely been moments where I've seen that I've experienced that maybe I've participated in it in it. Not that I'm glad about that, but that is a reality. But, there is not the level of, I think, silent support of abuse in ensembles that is on screen. That's always sort of a difficult thing to do. Because the director and the conductor is sort of seen as, you know, an all encompassing god that you just let, let them lead the show and let them tell you your merit as a person, as a musician.
So that's certainly true for sure.
Jennie:
All of that is really enlightening to me, this dynamic of kind of top competition, this idea that as a performer, you understand in your community, wow, like this is a competition that really matters in this film.
I studied art history. And so there was also this dynamic of people working at like the best museums or getting the best internships, but I've often wondered what are the stakes for the characters in this movie? What is their kind of professional end game? Like what is possible? Is it on par with a professional athlete? Who's trying to make millions of dollars getting into the NFL or is it something else?
And then another big question I have that kind of rides off of that is how are they defining success for themselves personally as a musician? So both that professional piece, what, what are the stakes and then how do they know if they are truly, as they say several times in the film, one of the grades and not just good.
Sarah (00:19:17):
Okay. So stay with me here. I'm going to try to make a really, <laugh> what I think is a really astute analogy. And it might be something that we cut out. I'm not sure, but you know, that saying: if a tree falls in a forest and nobody's around to hear it, did it ever make a sound?
Well, in some ways we can talk about musical achievement in that way, right? So like if a musician was never a household name, never reached the top, never got into the best orchestra, never released album after album, after album, did they even exist as a musician? Did they even matter?
And I think that there is that level in achievement culture for musicians. For sure. However, I don't necessarily think that that means a musician is successful or not. And this is something that hits me to my core on so many levels because I felt this as a kid, I never wanted to be the flute player that was cut.
I never wanted to be the flute player that was relegated to the fourth chair section because you're just playing half notes for the whole time. And that's not fun.
And yet I also am seeing this in a new way because my son was also in a music magnet program in middle school. And it was more intense than I have had experienced in my music high school and intense in sort of a borderline again, Terrence Fletcher from this movie way. And there was not the level of abuse that I'm aware of. There was some, but it wasn't <laugh>, you know, the, the crazy name calling, but there was this lack of support of one another because all of the violin players were vying for that top position.
And the director was sort of like, “well, you either work hard and you're naturally talented and you get it or you don't.” There wasn’t a lot of, “Hey, you're struggling. Let me help you.” Or, “Hey, you know what, so what you didn't, you weren't able to nail that really complicated section with 16th notes right there, but you know what you are always on to in tune and your tone is gorgeous.”
There was none of that. It was, you either get a superior in All-State or you're trash. And that was not a culture that I am okay with when I was experiencing it myself, I was in it. I felt okay if I don't get a superior, I am trash.
And a Superior is this, um, this highest level, just to, I was realizing that not everybody might know what this is. Um, but there are competitions that start at seventh grade basically. And they go all the way through high school for orchestra or band instrumentalists, and it's a solo competition. And then there's also an ensemble competition. When you perform, there's always a rubric that the judges are looking at to be able to determine what your rating is and you can get a superior and excellent. And I cannot remember, I think there's a fair, or maybe there's a good, at least that's the way it was when I was in middle and high school.
And the superior was the only acceptable rating. If you got an excellent, that wasn't even like getting a B that was sort of like getting a C minus and then a Fair was like, you might as well just quit, you're terrible.
Jennie:
This is helpful. So the official rating was not superior and then trash like that.
Sarah:
No, <laugh>.
Jennie: I'm kidding. No one thought that, but that was the feeling and that, that, um, that's very helpful to understand. Um, and I also, you mentioned the idea of natural talent and how that plays into it.
And I was wondering what you think the relationship is between hard work and, you know, starting when you're really young and doing it every day, doing it, like in whiplash, your fingers bleed, what role does that play versus natural talent? What is the relationship do you think?
Sarah
I think there is a relationship. And I also think there's not a relationship. When you're watching Whiplash, especially if you're not a percussionist, you're seeing Andrew Neiman, uh, played by Miles Teller and you're like, wow, he's really good. You're really rooting for this kid. And you, you feel like, he obviously achieved a lot of success in high school, and so he's got to be good to be able to get into this conservatory in New York. That's awesome. And so you assume that he's got some natural talent and then he probably worked to be able to get there.
But then when you kind of see the frequent, frequent, frequent mentions of Charlie Parker, or some of the other musicians that were the pinnacle of their respective fields, you realize that there is a relationship between that natural talent and crazy, crazy, crazy hard work.
And you know, he's practicing you're right. That scene was so intense. I felt that scene. I have been in that scene. I've lived that. There were lots of times when sure, a flute player, if your fingers are bleeding, there's something super wrong with your flute, or I don't know what you're doing, but like your fingers should not be bleeding. There were many times where my hands would get frozen because like even now have joint issues with my pinky on my right hand because of hours and hours and hours of repetitive practice. And so just like Andrew Neiman, you have to work really, really hard.
You can't just, you know, sail in assuming that, okay, well, I, I love music. I feel it in my soul and think that that's going to get you there. Most instruments are complicated. You can't just expect a note to come out.
And one thing that I think of a lot is the violin. Again, as I'm watching my kids, both of my kids study violin and have for years, it's a very complicated instrument. You have to think about your positioning. You have to think about, “How is my elbow underneath my violin, how loose or tight is it? Is there, is there too much tension? Not enough?” You think about how the bowing works. Is it straight? What part of the bow am I using? Where are my fingers? There are so many things that are involved in playing an instrument that you can't just be a quote, unquote, natural musician. You have to work at it.
And my children get very frustrated with me sometimes because we write all the notes that their teachers had during their lessons of things that they need to work on. Things that went well, kind of their homework assignments for the next week's lesson. And I work with them for the whole week.
I say, okay, remember your bow arm, your bow arm, you can't be sawing at your violin. Like it's a log and your arm is a saw. You have to extend out like a door hinge. You know, we talk about that. We go sort of ad nauseam into scales and other things. Very, very boring technical things that are important. And you have to work. You know, there are some days when my seven year old, for an hour, we're working on scales and she's engaged. We try to make it fun. I'm, I'm not screaming obscenities at her. <laugh> like Terrence Fletcher in any way, but there is the expectation in our house anyway, where I say, “Okay, if you're going to practice, if you're going to play an instrument, let's do it right. And if you're not willing to invest the time and the effort and the heart into it, then let's not do it.”
And I think that's so important for music. And, and I think maybe that I, I have a very strange perspective because, my mom was a professional musician, a music teacher, a director , my sister actually, had a major in music as well. My dad was a musician, like we're all musicians. So I know that I have a different expectation of musical study in my house than probably is normal or healthy, maybe in some ways.
But I feel that very strongly. And I, I think that's the one thing that I kind of agreed with, withTerrence Fletcher in this movie. When he is basically just saying like, “you need to practice, you need to work harder, you need to do better.”
And those aren't really, he wasn't being very helpful. He, wasn't a fantastic mentor in that way, but it's true. Like you want to be the best. Okay, great. Great. Just, you know, having some natural ability is not going to get you to be the best you have to work at it. All of the greats eat, Itzhak Perlman, uh, major violinist practiced, um, and practices still, even though he's, you know, I would say probably in the top five violinists of all time, he practices still.
That's not something that you stop doing once you reach the top or when you are able to play a scale. Well, um, it's just, it's just part of, part of the art form is to work at it.
Jennie (00:28:41):
You know, I hear you talk about it too, in the way that it's so integral to your family growing up and your family. Now, it, it definitely is kind of taking form in my mind, like music and one's musical life is almost like a separate manifestation of life. Like the, the way that you live as a musician is as important as the way that you just like live every day. Like it's its own fulfillment and that you can know, like, “I did everything I could.” And I definitely think it's a different mindset for people who don't have that kind of musical background. So a few things I noticed, you said, ”My children study violin.” <laugh> whereas I, my kids both, I would say play piano.
I don't believe I've ever said that they studied piano because I don't think, think I, and that's a difference that I think does make a difference with your approach to the work ethic. I remember coming to you on a phone call, uh, probably almost a year ago where I was saying, um, I can't get my kids to practice, um, piano every day. And it's kind of taking a toll when they show up at their weekly lessons. Um, <laugh> their, their instructors know they have practiced exactly zero minutes that week <laugh> and, um, I've said, what do you do? And could you, could you share with our listeners the advice that you gave me,
Sarah:
I can’t. I can’t remember. Ok tell me.
Jennie (00:30:21):
I loved it. You said, um, I tell my kids that they only have to practice on the days that they eat. And I'm like, that is excellent advice. And I actually think that's decent life advice. Like if there is something that you care deeply about and you do want to be great at or successful at, or if you're going to do it, do it right. You do need to practice. And I think the caveat you put you weren't like play piano to your fingers, be children <laugh> it was definitely put your hands on the piano for some amount of time, like just make it part of your routine.
And I think that that's, that's super, super solid advice. And I think that what I'm hearing you say, tell me if this is correct, you can have genius and you can have, you know, a prodigy level basic kind of anatomy within you, but it is wasted if you don't commit to habits that make you successful because they're a mechanics of it.
And I want that's one thing I thought was very effective in the movie was that they chose to have the instrument be a drum because it's much easier for the viewer and the musically illiterate of us in the world to understand like, oh, he's working very hard because I see his hands, his whole body sweating, bumping, moving, pounding. That scene that you're talking about, I mean, it is a physical visceral experience to see the character Andrew pounding away.
Whereas had they chosen something like, I don't know, like flute, it might have been harder to demonstrate that intensity.
Sarah (00:32:21):
Oh, completely, completely. And, and talking a little bit more about the aspect of practice. There are so many different approaches to it. And I think what is so important is to find that method that works. If you are going to study music or study anything, for instance.
I grew up in the musical philosophy, it's called Suzuki. It's sort of a method that was created by this amazing, it was created in Japan, by this guy, Suzuki, there are a series of books that you work through,
Before the books, there are CDs essentially, or recordings, before there are CDs, there are recordings. You listen to them and you sort of let the music become one with your heart, become one with your soul. And you memorize that as very young children. Tiny, tiny children can learn to play minuets just by ear. And you're training your ear, you're training your body to recognize what are the right pitches? What are the right notes, the rhythms.
And only, you know, once you're sort of advanced enough, maybe in, I don't even know when cause some, some teachers introduce it later than others, but I didn't learn how to read music until I was in book six. And there are 10 books for flute. And so that, that was kind of a strange thing because my note reading skills even now are not as great. Like my sight reading is not as great because, I spent so much time in my early education, honing my ear.
I'm saying this to say that what was really fantastic about that method and that, that phrase that I told to you, you know, only have to practice on the days that you eat came from him. But a lot of the other philosophies are related to sort of love in music and love in your interactions with people. That was something that came from this philosophy. And there is such a beautiful side to that philosophy that I think helped me to love music, even when I was practicing for six hours after just getting home from high school at like three 30. Practicing until 10 and then maybe eating dinner.
I loved it because somewhere in me loved the music still. I understood the story that the music was telling me or that the composer was trying to convey when they wrote it.
And there has to be that marriage. I mean, again, like let me just take,this musician Itzhak Perlman mostly because that's who I've been focusing on since my kids have been studying the violin. And because I just heard him play live, a few months ago.
He was a gifted violinist from a very young age. And what was apparent was his ability to play very difficult technical pieces as a young, young child. I mean, he traveled all, all around the world. He had polio, and he practiced the violin when he was in his hospital bed and became known for his ability to be this like amazing prodigy who could play these crazy pieces.
But didn't just play them technically perfect. He did play them technically perfect, but he also played them with soul, with heart, with feeling and emotion that I sound like I'm trying to advertise for him, but really just transcended the notes on the page.
And you can't do that without that natural talent or even more specifically without that love of music and that desire to communicate. And I think that that is one of the most unfortunate things about this movie is that that is missing completely.
I have never heard a musician that I was moved by that was playing perfectly, but in a rote mechanical way. And there are several parts in the movie where it's like, for instance, like the most intense scene, probably one of the most intense scenes that if you Google Whiplash, this is the scene that comes up on YouTube.
And it's the scene where the jazz band is all ready to go. Andrew Neiman finally gets his seat in this jazz band. He's so excited. And again, he's a freshman, so that's a super big deal. And the director Terrence Fletcher says like, “okay, just, you know, do the best you can. Um, you know, let's just try it.” And they start playing a little bit. Um, and then all of a sudden he cuts them off and he says, “uh, I don't know, not, not quite right, not my tempo.” And, um, they try again, he stops them again, says, “uh, no, not, not quite right yet. Um, let's do it again.” And it goes on and on and on until at some point, you know, five painful minutes later into it. He's like, “Are you rushing or are you dragging?!”
And what he's trying to achieve in this moment, we're not exactly sure other than to a humiliate this poor kid and, and maybe humble him a little bit because he thought one: that he was real hot s@## getting into this band as a freshman, and two: trying to get him to play technically.
Perfect. And that is something that think of course every director wants that to happen, but when you're really talking about creating a musical genius, you don't create musical genius level playing by assault. <laugh> By rote mechanical practice, hours and hours and hours that just, it's not going to happen. It's not going to happen.
Jennie:
Well. And, and also what you're describing is what, what Fletcher does is just textbook, like the love bombing abuse cycle kind of situation. It's a very, that was what was so disturbing for me about the movie was seeing such kind of distillation of abuse into this relationship between the musician and the director where he starts out by, before they go in for his first time. He tells him, you know, how fun kind of makes him feel super, you know, pumped up about himself, really fills his cup.
And then he like drop, kicks the cup across the room in the course of that, um, exchange. And it escalates to the point where he even, like you said, it's like true assault. He throws a, is it a cymbol, like symbol, an actual, um, look at me knowing my instrument,
Sarah:
Good job.
Jennie:
A metal Frisbee. He throws it and like that, like legit could hurt someone again, it wasn't like throws it at the ground. He threw it at him. And it was just such a, a tidy arc of how that works, filling you up. Kind of like gaslighting you like, yeah, what are you doing here? What, what is it, do you know what's wrong here? We all know what's wrong here. Do you? Um, and I think as a viewer, we never find out, like, do you, as a musician know, like, was, was he <laugh>, was he dragging or was he rushing you?
Sarah (00:39:19):
You do, you do. Um, he was doing both at different points.
Jennie:
And, um, did they say that in the movie or are we, we ignorant just left to be like, I don't know,
Sarah:
I had trouble hearing it. I, I remember, my sister is a percussionist and that's what she studied in music school. And so I remember when I watched this movie, I called her and I was like, “Hey, did you see this movie?” She said, “no.” And I said, “okay, well go watch the movie. And then at the rushing or dragging scene, I need you to call me and tell me what was happening there.” And she did, she told me that he was rushing. And, um, so that, that's the only way that I could hear that because it was so minute I'm interested.
Jennie:
Can you speak to me a little bit more about what was so, cause I was interested and like, oh, I wonder if he was rushing and dragging, but then I left it at a solid, like shrug <laugh> I don't know. It seems like what was happening was like trauma and, and failure on all levels for everyone. Um, but I'm interested. Why was it so important to you to like, scratch that itch and find out, “Did you mess up Andrew? How were you messing up?”
Sarah:
I think it felt like a really nice way for me to connect with my sister. Um, she and I are just so different, but that was one thing where I felt like, Hey, I love this movie. It's so intense. And it's about a percussionist. She went to music school. She'll be able to fill me in on this and, and I can show her that I I'm interested in her world and her experience too.
So it felt like just a natural way for us to just actually talk about something shared, which doesn't always happen or didn't always happen.
But the musician in me and as a, I don't need to call out woodwinds, but like as a woodwind player, a lot of times we're playing the melody. So it's pretty simple to stay on tempo. And we need those percussionists to do that hard work in the background and, and set that foundation for the entire rest of the ensemble.
But just being a woodwind here, you're not necessarily aware of it, unless something sounds off when you feel it in your chest and it's not going right. Somebody's beat is off. And hopefully it's not yours.
Because I <laugh>, I can remember one rehearsal once I had gotten into the All-State band. And that's a big deal. That's when you you audition, you're competing against not just everybody in your high school, um, and your district. So you get into All-District. And then if you audition against everybody else in your state and you get a seat, you get to be in All-State. So it kind of represents like the best, uh, musicians in the state for that year.
So when I was in All-State, I remember I got to be first chair and I was super proud of myself, but I had not practiced the night before, thinking, “Oh, it's easy. It's Jurassic park.”
We were playing Jurassic Park. So I was like, “I got this. It's my favorite movie. It's fine. I've heard that song. It's great.”
Well, no, it was not fine. And if you've ever heard that beautiful John Williams melody from Jurassic Park, you will know that there's a flute solo in it. And I thought I could just wing it because it's simple, but I blew it massively on the first day of our rehearsal in front of everybody, my in front of my section.
And it was one of the most humbling experiences because our director was not super nice about it. He called me out for not practicing. And I took responsibility because I should have, and he kind of held me up as the example for the rest of the week, which was humiliating as, “This is what happens if you think that you're the best and you don't practice, is you sound like that.”
Jennie (00:43:11):
<laugh> whoa, whoa, whoa, whoa.
Sarah:
So like when I see that scene, I know what he felt like. There is this moment, when a director calls you out, it is silent and in a room full of musicians, it shouldn't be silent. It should be music playing <laugh> and everybody's doing well, there should be music, you should be rehearsing.
But it was silent just like it was silent in that scene. And everybody is looking kind of, you know, out of the corner of their eye at, <laugh> at JK Simmons and at Miles Teller to see, you know, what's happening, but really they're just focused on their page.
They're kind of looking down, they don't want to bring any attention to themselves and they just want to get, get through it. They want the abuse to happen and get over with so that they can continue playing and hopefully get out of there without being called out themselves.
And that has happened many, many, many, many times for me.
Jennie:
So to that point, that, that leads me to another question I have, as I've, as I've been hearing you talk about supporting your own kids and learning, and then about the questionable way that the director, Terrence Fletcher led and kind of used abuse to steer his, his ensemble.
In that instance where you struggled and hadn't practiced and felt signaled out, how did your family support you? Like, how do you recommend that partners or parents or family members of creative people support their, their creative, the person who in their life is the, you know, the musician or other person kind of going through that journey of learning and performing.
How do you like appropriately support them when they're being successful or when they're failing?
Sarah (00:45:05):
Well, the only way that I can answer this question is to tell you what my mom did for me after that rehearsal. I came out of the ballroom. It's always at a hotel, some like kind of choosy hotel that you go to for these things, these All-State competition things.
And she just probably saw the look of my face <laugh> and it was the first time that I'd really been put in my place in a very public way anyway. And we went back to the hotel room and I almost couldn't talk because when you have thought that you're the best for a long time, and you realize I've been a jerk and I'm also not the best, as a young person that is really devastating.
And she told me, “Okay, Sarah, listen, there are two things that you can do. There are two things that musicians do when this happens. Number one, they practice until they can't anymore. And then one day they become the best and then they keep practicing and keep practicing. And their main goal is to make sure that they're never embarrassed again. And then, you know what happens? They stop loving music. If they haven't already, they stop loving music and they're doing it, cause they're the best now, but they're trapped. And that's all that they are, is the best. They're kind of a shell.
And the other type of person focuses on the part of music that they love. Maybe they're not going to be the best. Maybe they are, they practice, but they're focusing on how the music makes them feel. And you know what? Those are the musicians you want to listen to. You don't want to hear the people that, you know, have practiced for 47 hours straight and don't care anymore. That they're only in it to win it. You want to hear the people that care and enjoy it.”
And I think that that advice is something that I try so hard to convey to my kids because I don't want them to feel like Andrew Neiman did in Whiplash.
And I don't want them to feel like I did because for me as a human being, I feel so strongly that music is this powerful connecting force, um, in humanity, really. And the ability for music to get you out of an emotional pit, if you're in one or to celebrate with other people, when you're feeling that way is more moving than anything else. And to be able to create something yourself is huge. And I want my kids to love music, whether as a listener, whether they are at first chair or last chair, I want them to practice because you need to. And anything that you want to do, you have to invest time in, but I don't want it to suck the ever loving life out of them. I don't want it to suck the fun out of it for them either.
And I think that what we as family members or loved ones can do to support creatives is to celebrate when they're doing really well and say, “Hey, you know, how did that make you feel when you were able to play that, that Paganini solo that way? How did it make you feel? What, what do you think the composer was trying to convey in that? Is that how you were feeling too, what you think that they were trying to convey?”
Another thing that, um, I think is really nice to do is to say, “I know you like strings. I just heard this amazing group on YouTube. Do you like them too?” We kind of did that with, with Liam when he was little, he had picked the violin on his own and he was like, actually very intense about it. He was very hard on himself, uh, on technical stuff. One day I, I found, 2Cellos on YouTube and they are a fantastic, group of two, obviously, two cellos. They are classically trained, but they play all covers of like rock music basically.
So they'll play Metallica and they're really, really good performers. And they're technically good as well. They're just so crazy fun to watch whether you like classical music, string players or whatever. It doesn't matter. If you like great performers, you will like them. And I said, “Hey, check these guys out. They look like they're having a lot of fun while they're playing.”
And I think that if you can try not to focus on, “Hey, you know what, oh man, that lesson went horrible and it went horribly because you didn't practice. And I noticed that your, um, fingers were flat and your technique was just, you really need to work on it this week.”
That's not a way to make a kid or somebody feel supportive, but to say like, “Hey, you know what? That, that was a hard lesson. What, what are you going to do about it next week? What are you going to do about it this week to make next week better? And also let's just go listen to some fun music right now. Let's take a little brain break that was stressful. We'll, we'll circle back and, and we'll make it better next time.” I think you've got to find that balance.
Jennie:
What extraordinary advice and hearing you tell the story of what your mom said to you? Honestly, it gave me chills and at the beginning, it kind of surprised me because I thought you were going to say, she said, there are people who practice and people who don't <laugh>. Um, but the pivot to there are people who practice ad nauseam and then end up, I feel like the cautionary tale of Andrew and Terrence Fletcher and this dynamic, they end up empty in. They end up not loving it. And, um, the relationship with music that you described is so at odds, um, with what is in this movie, but also very much brushing up against it.
Like it's definitely a choice I really appreciated. And did definitely understand the analogy you had at the beginning about if a tree falls in the woods <laugh> um, and no one is there to hear it. Um, that definition of success, you know, if you aren't lauded as the best, if you aren't the Charlie Parker in, in this movie, um, if you aren't famous, does it matter?
Um, I think that what that does, I'm just going to take this to another tree analogy and keep going to keep going. I think that it really misses the trees for the forest. If you know what I mean, they're, they're, they're, they're trying to find this forest of success. They're trying to be everything, but they're not seeing the trees mm-hmm <affirmative> which you do for your kids and which I think people who, who are successful with supporting not just musicians, but supporting people.
And so I think that success without heart is just kind of like exactly what you said. It's, it's a shell, like your mom said, it's a shell and it's not real and it's not sustaining.
So my question is, you know, and now looking back at this movie, um, with hindsight of having gone through these experiences, having children who are beginning to go through these experiences, how does your understanding of what it means to be a whole musician and a whole person who's able to see the trees and the forest?
How does this movie kindle that understanding and how does it sustain your own practice as a musician, a supporter of musicians, and as a human?
Sarah:
This movie is nothing, if not a cautionary tale, I mean, and it is also everything. I think what we all have to think about as human beings and what this movie made me really feel is that this whole thing about achievement culture, it's such a sickness, it's, it's a cancer really.
Once you let it in there, once you let those little cells in there of, um, self doubt or worry that you're not the top or comparison to other people, I think that's the big one it's going to grow. It's going to grow.
And if you feed it by continually letting your inner monologue kind of say the kind of crap that Terrence Fletcher does, you know, like this negative, you're nobody, if you're not the top kind of stuff to yourself, then that cannot be the motivating factor.
And again, even if you do achieve success, okay. So say Andrew Neiman does become like, basically like the next Charlie Parker, but when we've seen him in the movie, as he's practicing and focusing on that one only goal he's lonely, he doesn't have relationships. He can't have a relationship that is kinder decent with what seems to be a very lovely girlfriend in the movie.
Um, he kind of shuts out and belittles his whole entire family. And maybe some of it feels justified because they're, they're all about achievement culture of, oh, look, he got to be quarterback, oh, look what your cousin got to do. Um, so they're kind of all about that.
And he throws that in their face, but when you're only focusing on your one primary goal, everything else falls to the side. And that's something that I really struggle with as a human being. I'm not a musician anymore. I guess I haven't studied music seriously since high school.
I chose not to do that in college, much to my mother's I think disappointment. But there have been lots of things throughout my life where, you know, I wanted to be the best employee ever, the best college student ever the best mother ever, the best homeschool teacher ever, the best friend ever.
What does that even mean? What does best mean? Like who is measuring me against every other mother? That's b.s. completely. I mean, every child is different.
Jennie:
You are the best friend though. I will say that you're an amazing friend. So you get points for that for sure.
Sarah:
Aw, you are too.
Jennie:
But I, I definitely understand what you're saying. Who's measuring it. And going back to that conversation that you had with this family in the movie where it was this like hyper achievement culture, it really highlights what you're saying.
Achievement culture doesn't even mean anything because in each sphere it's like completely incestuous, like completely what meant to go to Shafer, Shafer Conservatory, but no one else did. And so I think it speaks to the fact that you have to define that for yourself.
Sarah:
Exactly, exactly. And I think, oh gosh, it's just so hard. I mean, we both have kids, right. And so I know that both of us have probably felt this from time to time. And it's so easy to not just compare your own kids against, um, other kids, but compare them to what you think that they should be achieving.
Even if it's not like a massive thing. Like, you know, being the best, whatever ever, but just something like, okay, well, um, I think that you should be reading at this level, or why is your handwriting at that level? When I think it should be at this level, you know, there even little things like that, it's so easy to do.
And, obviously you're an amazing mom, so you're not going to be like screaming and <laugh> hurting your children in any way. If their, I don't know, handwriting, isn't where you think it is or whatever it is.
But I think it's just very natural for us to always want growth from our kids.
And I think that it's really hard to make sure to draw that line in anything that we do of being okay with growth rather than the pinnacle of perfection.
Jennie:
Absolutely. I think for me, one of the takeaways of this movie, when I watched it, I was like, oh, I understand why Sarah suggested this because even though it's definitely a cautionary tale having that kind of non-example like that, um, anti-hero of the amazing JK Simmons in the meta way, like yeah. At his professional best having all of that to look at definitely gives me something to think about.
I have thought about this movie so many times exactly. Like what you're saying, it's not just about band it's about your approach to achieving, I did air quotes. I'm sure you can hear that because this is an audio media,
Sarah:
Our air quotes are so loud when we do them
Jennie:
Deafening air quotes, I just did double handed it. It was intense. But just this idea that you are defining success by winning by achieving is definitely dangerous. And it definitely helps remind me of that.
Like, I don't want to be throwing cymbals, proverbial or otherwise at my children, um, or at myself whenever I feel like I'm not achieving. Um, and so yeah, it leaves me with a lot of questions. It definitely sparked a lot of, um, thoughts for me and continues to do so.
So I really thank you so much for, um, bringing this movie that I did not know about to my attention.
Sarah:
Oh, I'm just so glad that you got to watch it and even gladder yet that we got to talk about it because, I don't know, there's getting to talk about movies that you really love or that have just hit you in a certain way and then getting to talk about it with somebody that you really also love is just.
I mean, it's, it's the frosting on the cake. It's the cymbal on the drum set it's um, I don't know. I feel like I need like a woodwind thing, but I, I don't even know, like the head joint on my flute. That doesn't sound that exciting. <laugh> I dunno. Hopefully we'll cut that part out. Um <laugh> but
Jennie:
I need that to stay in forever because that was, I, I don't even know what those parts are, but it it's that it's the shining. It's the shine on your flute.
Sarah:
There you go. I love it. That's better. <laugh>
Jennie:
I think the headwind on the knobby thing was good too. <laugh>
Sarah:
So, so I guess to encourage our listeners to have really good conversations about achievement, culture and genius and hard work and pressure with people that they love in their own lives, we encourage you to talk about it.
Um, so our screen sparks this week: Is trauma and sacrifice required for greatness?
Do you think that being good is sufficient or do we need to be great?
Do we need to be the best?
And if you have a creative yearning. What is stopping you from pursuing or practicing your art? If anything, is it that harsh inner critic or something else entirely?
Uh, so think about these questions, talk about them with the people that you love and care about.
If you've seen this movie together and please share your responses and your experiences with us on our social media, you can find us on Facebook on Instagram, or you can communicate to us, through our website.
Jennie:
I absolutely love all of these questions. I'm very interested in. Um, especially that last question. I know that for us creating this podcast has been a really long journey to kind of learn the craft and get good enough at it that we felt comfortable releasing it.
But I think for a long time, it really, it was kind of daunting to dip our toes into a new creative outlet that we didn't necessarily know about. And one big piece of that was finding music to go along with our, with our podcast. You know, what feels like us, what has that kind of love and authenticity that we love.
And I was so grateful, Sarah, whenever you reached back into your past and you were able to help us create our theme music, um, with someone that you knew from whenever you were, um, studying music.
Sarah:
Yes. This was one of the sort of surprising, joyful parts of creating this podcast. I knew that working with you would be amazing and fun. But I didn't anticipate that we would be working with other people. I knew this amazing pianist from the same high school that I was mentioning earlier.
Um, Booker High School VPA, shout out to you. Basically one of the most talented pianists, in the school was Brooks Milgate. And, when he sat down to play the piano, everybody would just stare. And I mean, it was, it was exceptional and just amazing.
And he was also just the nicest person that I remember from high school. There's tons of people in our music department that were great, but he was by far just the most humble and nice human beings.
So anyway, I happened to see, on one of my own social media pages that he is still a working musician, which did not surprise me at all, knowing how talented he was. And so I just reached out one day and said like, “Hey, do you ever write songs, theme songs for podcasts?” <laugh>
And he was so willing to take our project on. And he's done tons of projects for other people as well, but I was just so grateful that he was so willing to work with us.
Cause Jennie, you and I have had so many interesting ideas that we threw at him without even knowing how to create a theme song.
So I think at one point we were like, make it sound Wes Anderson-y, but also not too Wes Anderson-y and make it sound inviting, but quirky <laugh>.
So he took feedback like that and gave us this beautiful, fantastic song.
And so Brooks, we are so fantastically just in awe of you and so grateful for all of your hard work and just for putting up with our many edits <laugh> exactly.
Jennie:
And, and I really, I it's a, it's a skill and a gift to be able to take feedback like that. Like I, as a more visual medium person was saying things like it's like that kind of warm light tone that you'd have at a music festival when you're meeting your friend after a long distance.
And he was like, got it. And then he came back to us with this version of our theme song. So, to end out this episode, I think it might be kind of special to listen to our theme music made by Brooks in its entirety.
So it please enjoy dear listener. As we close out this, this week's episode about Whiplash with the beginning to end full version of the song that was created for Screen Cares.
Outro (01:06:00):
Thank you for letting us share our screens with you this week. We hope that you keep watching for the meeting behind the screen. Don't forget to like and subscribe to Screen Cares wherever you listen to your podcasts, check out our show notes for great info and to visit our website www.screencares.com or check out our social media pages for great resources.