PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - EPISODE 324

HOW TO OFFER DESTINATION PHOTOGRAPHY SESSIONS WITH KELLIE LLEWELLYN

Please note: This transcript was created with the assistance of AI technology. While we strive for accuracy, the text may contain errors and should be verified against the original source for critical uses.

Annemie Tonken  00:00

My kids are 15 and 19, and over the past several years, as you can imagine, I have spent a lot of time with teenagers, and I cannot think of a single teenager that I know who wouldn't leap at the opportunity to pack up with a handful of their best friends and go on a trip to some amazing location where they have a personal, professional photographer along to take photos and make this sort of event of their senior portraits. My guest today is Kelly Llewellyn of Kelly Rochelle photography, and she has taken this sort of dream scenario and turned it into a viable business line in her family and senior portrait business, where she goes on these sort of once in a lifetime trips with seniors and oftentimes their friends and or family to do senior portraits on location. Today she's joining me to talk about the details of that, because as appealing as this sounds, certainly for your senior clients, but family clients, engagement and elopement clients, could be anybody, and as appealing as it is for them, and as appealing as it is for us, obviously, it also comes with some pretty significant things to think about when it comes to logistics, pricing, marketing and the rest of it. Kelly and I are diving into all of it. She is a total open book. It was a really fun, interesting conversation. It certainly got my wheels turning, and my guess is it'll get your wheels turning as well. Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken, and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how Kelly Llewellyn, welcome to this. Can't be that hard. It is so great to see your face. I got to see you in person just a couple of weeks ago, and here we are again, recording, but it's wonderful to finally have you on the podcast. How are you today? Good, good. Thanks for having me on this. I'm excited. Yeah, likewise, this is I was saying before we hit record. This is a very first time topic for me, and I'm just itching to hear all the details. But before we dive in, why don't you introduce yourself, let everybody know who you are, where you're based, and a little bit more about

Kellie Llewellyn  02:36

what we're talking about. Sure, yeah, I'm Kelly Llewellyn. My photography is called Kelly Rochelle photography. I live in Williston, North Dakota with my family. I have seven kids and my husband so big household. We do a lot of running, and I've been a photographer going on eight years before that, I was a hospital pharmacist for 10 years. I didn't know that. Yeah, when I got pregnant with Max, he's number six. We were like, something has to change. Yeah, sure. And the great thing about photography is you make your own schedule, right? So indeed, I could work around the kids' activities and still do something I love. So this was a perfect fit for me, and I love it. I mean, you know, when you love your job, it doesn't feel like

Annemie Tonken  03:18

a job, right? Indeed, and it is. It's one of those things where you have to keep a close eye on it, because there are days when it does feel like a job, and I guess that's to be expected, but then other days, I'm like, Does this feel like a job in a way that I can shift it, since I'm the boss, and we can, we can push it back into territory that feels fun and exciting again. But yeah, no, that's amazing. I was also a medical professional prior to so I was a nurse back before I got into photography. And, yeah, it's a funny pathway. We're not alone by any stretch.

Speaker 1  03:53

Yeah, science and art. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it's like two different sides of things. Yeah, I love that. Yeah, yeah. So

Annemie Tonken  03:59

cool. Um, and have you always done seniors? Has that always been your area of focus?

Speaker 1  04:06

I know I've the only thing I don't do is weddings. I'm okay with everything else, but just like you, I can't plan that far in advance, because you know you don't know the soccer schedule for the fall until Cheryl, late summer or whatever, and so I can't commit to something because I don't want to miss out on my kids' activities. So that's the only thing I won't do. I've did a couple, if it's like a best friend or a really small one, but families, seniors travel. That's what we're gonna talk about today. And I do some team stuff. Oh, branding, yeah. So that's kind of that, all the things that my photography encompasses, but yeah, and travel is, like my favorite part of it. So well,

Annemie Tonken  04:46

let's dive right into that. Talk to me a little bit about how you got into travel sessions and how you started steering that towards seniors in particular.

Speaker 1  04:55

Well, it started when my daughter was a senior. Are going to go into her senior year. I. Yeah, we travel a lot. I love to travel in general. And I was like, I want to do this really bad. I'm just going to try to do it. So I reached out to two of her close friends, moms, and was like, I have this idea, let's go to San Diego and then go to the Joshua Tree and go to the sand dunes and make this like a really amazing trip. And I thought it'd be like a hard sell, and they're immediately, yes, let's do it. So that was a, I would say it was like a four day trip that we took, and it was kind of just like a test, right? Like, how would this work? Is this going to be something I can do? And it was very much a work weekend, so to speak, where we were shooting all the time, because we had to drive from San Diego to Joshua Tree, which is a few hours, and then to the sand dunes, was a few more dollars hours, you know, so, but the experience was amazing. The girls loved it. We had a great time. And so that just kind of set the tone for me, of like, what to expect, I would say. And you've did some travel weddings, it's a different type of stress, like you've got this one shot, and you want to make sure they get the experience they want. It's a lot more stress on yourself and prepping your client. Because, for instance, if it was the busy time in Joshua Tree, we may not find parking right away, right, right, or we might have to wait a minute to get in that specific you know spot for that picture. And just telling your clients like this is going to be a slower speed. We're going to anticipate things. We might have to walk or hike a mile, but we've already planned that into the time. You know what I mean, like, and getting in the mindset of that is, it helps so much. I can't even, I can't even say, because here in a rural area, we can pull up to the park, there's nobody there. We just park and get out and immediately start shooting that it's not the same when you travel. And so I've picked up some like, tips and tricks, like there's certain apps that I use to help me find locations, or, like, hidden places to park, or the locals park here, because, you know, it's going to be overflowing in this one and things like that have helped me along the way. Also having a solid plan before you go, I have a template that I always fill out that, I mean, it's got our flights, our Airbnb, what we're going to rent to drive, like, what days we're going to do certain things, which outfits they're going to wear those days? Having as much preparation before you start the shoot, just in your mind, makes you feel better, right? Makes them feel like, yeah, that you know what you're doing, and we have this all figured out. I will say that. I tell them you know we're going to anticipate things. Like, if it's really crappy at night, we may have to do a sunrise set, or if we know it's going to be really busy in this location, meaning we may need to do a sunrise, you know, session, instead of waiting till that evening. And if they know that going into it, things just move a lot easier, you know, sure, if I threw that on then that, you know, like the day of you wouldn't feel the same way, right? Like I gotta get that four to get my hair ready. I don't want to do that, but knowing going into it also, like, if there's a nice night, take it right away. Don't wait. Don't wait for it, because weather changes so quickly. I learned that on a set too, or I keep on a set, on a session too, that we should have did it immediately. It was the day that we flew in, and we're like, oh, let's just wait. No, we should have never did that. It was crazy windy the whole rest of the trip. And now I know that, right? Like just those little things. The other thing is, is to it's an experience, right? It's not just a session. This is like a core memory that you're making with your senior. And that's how I present it, because that's how it was for Isabel and I and, like, for that first group, you know, friend group that we did, it was like this core memory, and they love it, and we they still talk about it, but it's not just getting your senior pictures. It's going to a location that maybe you've never been before, or maybe it's somewhere that you've gone every summer, and so it's really special to you. But, you know, presenting it that way, it feels different, right? It just feels a little bit different. And another thing that we've you and I guys talked about before we started this was, like pricing it so that you're not paying out of pocket for it. What I did, I started things a little different the first two years was I just wanted to start doing the sessions, and I was trying to figure out how to do it. And so I have four packages, and I made sure they picked the top two, which are high enough to where I would at least break even. I didn't, I didn't, I didn't charge for my travel, my, well, not my flights. We typically shared an Airbnb. So as I have my own bathroom, I don't mind that. And lucky for me, it's all been like friends, and so like we know each other, it's not like a stranger. And so I'm able to do that. I don't think in every scenario you could do that. But that's just how it works for me right now. And then I got the experience at the same time. If people were booking them, I think because they were, you know, in their mind, just paying for the senior session, their travel, but then the senior session now, since then, I've shifted things, and my travel is included in it, I mean, but I feel like, in my mind, I did it, the way that worked for me was I got all the experience I could now promote all these sessions, and people see what they are. I've told them, you know, my you know, like my vision for them, and they've just turned into something a little bit different, something else I would also like promote, if you're doing a senior session. When the entire family goes is to get a family session at this you know, like another shirt, and I've did that, I would say three or at least three or four times, and that's great, because you don't have work, you don't have team sports, you don't have right, or the kids in music. You are all at one location where you all you have is the time to spend with each other, right? And that just takes one level of stress off of the whole situation. And so that's how I present that as well. Because you're not thinking that, right? You're thinking, we're just going on vacation. But, I mean, why not get dressed up, get some family pictures, and they go out for dinner, you know? Like, totally, it feels a little different. So I

Annemie Tonken  10:37

love this whole idea. I love the concept of we are going to especially with seniors. I mean, I had a senior last year. I've got a freshman, two freshmen now, one in college, one in high school, but they're, you know, it's like everything is just go, go, go, all the time. Their lives are busy. My life is busy, this idea of pausing and setting aside, you know, a couple few days, whatever, to go on some sort of family trip away from all the distractions, friends, family, work, all the things, and to go to a place, and to make the time, to not only spend that time together, but then also document that, and sort of roll that into senior pictures and all this other stuff. Like I can, I can totally see the appeal from the parents perspective, and I can see the the appeal from your perspective. You know, when you were like, Hey, let's do this with your own daughter and her friends after you did it that first time. And I am excited. We've already started getting into all the nitty gritty, gritty of, like, what the angle is, and all this other stuff. But when you started thinking about, like, Okay, I could position this to do this for other people that aren't just my friends, it's, it's a big commitment, right? Like, from the perspective of the photographer, have you ever done this with a client that you've never worked with before, or has it always been somebody who you have at least some relationship

Speaker 1  12:01

with there was one client. We did a family session, but like everybody else, has been like actual friends. Our kids are in sports together, right? We have did things together, right? So that was the only time it was a little bit different. So it wasn't like she was an actual stranger. We just only knew each other because we did a family session one time. Do you know what I mean? It was amazing. Yeah. Very quick. Quick thing. And we had, we had our own separate, yeah, right? And we just, we had our own separate places, and we would just meet up for pictures, and, you know, then go our separate ways.

Annemie Tonken  12:33

Of course, on your end, it's like, who am I spending the entire week with? And then same thing for them, right? I mean, there is this sense of like they make great photos, but going on a mini vacation together is, is, is sort of the next level,

Speaker 1  12:48

yeah, and I also use it for myself, because I usually bring, I always bring my mom with I don't know if you know this, but she almost always shoots with me, just how she enjoys it. Yeah, she literally just hands me her SD cards, and she's on her way, you know. But if she can do it, she comes with me. She comes to all the travel sessions I've started bringing lane. She's my 13 year old, and he does video with one of my big cameras and with a cell phone, so he's getting all the behind the scenes. And if he doesn't come, I'll ask one of my three oldest kids if they want to come with. They don't typically help in the session, maybe a couple behind the scenes, but just to have that one on one time with them, you know, if we're not staying together in an Airbnb, I feel like I can do that, sure, and that that I'm creating moments with them too, but it's a work trip, and I've just tried to incorporate this travel where I can still do a little bit with my family, so it doesn't feel Like I'm, you know, leaving my family all these times and putting everything, you know, on my husband and older kids to do things where, if they can come with me. I mean, it's a bonus for them too. So I think that that's something that, if other photographers get into this, to keep in mind, like it could be a little bit more than that, right? And I love that, because now they're going to see new places. We're making core memories together too. And that's just kind of a cool aspect of it.

Annemie Tonken  14:02

Yeah, for sure, I don't know that my son would be all that excited if I was like, great, you're coming with me on a work trip, but if I could get him past that hurdle, then I think for me, selfishly, it sounds like an amazing opportunity talk to me a little bit about once you started offering these, how you positioned them. Were you coming up with locations? Were they coming up with the locations? Like, how did, how did all of those pieces of it fit together?

Speaker 1  14:33

I would say a little bit of both. Sometimes they reach out to me and be like, hey, where would you go for this? Like, if, if you could pick anywhere to go? Like, tell me different places. And so that has worked. And then there's been people where, like, I said, they went there every summer. We went to your ray, Colorado, and it was because the mom was from that area, and they go there every summer, and that's in her mind, where she wanted to get these senior pictures. And if that happens, that's great, because you can lean on them to be like, is there a certain location? Should you want to go to? Is there a spot that you know is beautiful for photographing? And that's exactly what we did. We just picked those places, and then I if you can do this, this isn't always an option. Go Scout before, about the same time you're going to shoot. That helps a lot in your mindset, and like, just seeing the light, because, as you know, the lights probably one of the most important things, and that works out perfect now, if, and then there's the other totally different scenario, where we went to Oregon, never been there in my life, and we're going to go to all these different locations on the coast, these different locations in Portland. And it's for then, for that I reached out to friends that live in that area. I reached out to people I knew that went to college in that area, to be like, Hey, I'm gonna go here. What would you recommend? And then I write down all these places, and then I start doing all my research, and I'm like, Okay, I think, you know, these three places, they're all a little bit different because of these reasons. And then I present it to the client. I'm like, What do you think about this? And they always are like, Yeah, whatever you think. But you know, you present yourself as the expert, even though you've never been there, right? Yeah, so that's how I do that. But yeah, it's a little bit of both,

Annemie Tonken  16:06

yeah, and I think obviously letting your clients know that, just like travel in general, when you're talking about travel sessions, there are certain elements that you can control, and then there are other things that are part of the experience, to be quite frank, like it's, you know, you have to sort of embrace that element of chance and and sometimes that works out really well, and sometimes there are things that are, you know, not ideal, that don't go as planned. I we were talking before we hit record, about the fact that my experience with travel sessions, really is limited to a handful of back when I was photographing weddings, I had a handful of destination weddings, and I remember being so excited the first time that I booked a destination wedding. And, you know, trying to make it as easy as possible on my clients, you know, oh, I'm going to take care of everything. I'll submit receipts so that for reimbursement. But like, you don't have to book anything for me, and I can plan the whole thing myself. And I was doing all this online research because I wasn't going to be able to scout ahead of time, so trying to figure out locations and all this other stuff. And by the time that it was all said and done, like it was a beautiful location. The photos came out great, but I felt like I worked 10 times harder for that, and it meant that I had an entire five or six days, not only away from my family, but also like I couldn't do any other jobs that week. So from that point forward, I did continue to take them because they were fun, and they were different. And it was, you know, fun for my portfolio and everything, but I was much more conscientious of what I was getting into well beyond just like booking another wedding. How do you, you know, how do you kind of plan ahead for that? Because, especially as someone who's so busy with your own family and you've got other clients that you're serving and everything else, I would think you really have to carve out time for opportunities like this. For sure,

Speaker 1  18:06

I limited it to one a month last year, and this year I'm limiting it even more. But I could have not. I could have never did it more than one a month. I mean, even that was probably pushing it for me. But typically, I would do four nights. Usually they pick my highest package, which is two sessions. And usually, not usually, but I would say half of the time it was two seniors. So they think of that. Then you have, you know, four sessions, you know what I mean, right? And then I turn them, I turn them into like, kind of like mini sessions, where we pick four different locations. Well, actually it was eight, if I'm doing it properly, because usually in a senior session, we do two locations, right? And so for doing four of them, take that times two, you got eight locations. And so they get this huge variety of pictures, because we get all these different locations, and they just kind of share each one together, if that makes sense, yeah. Plus the bonus of doing two seniors is they can, they can split your travel costs, so that's less expensive. It's more appealing, appealing to them. The experience is more appealing to your seniors because they're going with one of their best friends, sure, their cousins, or whatever it turns out to be. But it's even more appealing to them because of that. So if you're able to do that, and I mean, they may not think of that. So that is something that it's really good to like present it and be like, Hey, I don't know if you thought of this, but if you know your best friend is thinking about doing a travel session too, you guys should maybe come up with a location to do together, and that'll be even more fun. And then they're like, Oh yeah, they're sold right away, because who wouldn't want to go on a trip with their best friend? Right? Right, right, right. Totally. But you're right about the time thing, you are gone way more than you think you're going to be, because you've got the two travel days, right? And then, you know, usually we're there, and I would say, if it's just one senior, we've got at least one down day where I'm just doing some scouting and, you know, figuring out the area. But like you said, you're not at home where you could be shooting that day. You're on a vacation, or, you know, a vacation. Work vacation, right? And I didn't factor that in. That was something that I had to learn along the way, for sure, because you're not usually editing when you're on this trip, because you're busy doing other things. So basically, everything pauses you go on the trip, you come back with a lot more work, and you resume everything. So it is a lot more than you think it's going to be. Yeah?

Annemie Tonken  20:21

So to that point, and to that end, it's a lot more work. There is hopefully a pretty decent paycheck that comes out of it. And certainly it's kind of a fun thing to be able to showcase in your portfolio and talk about on social media, but I guess it's like, how do you then position this? How do you use this and sort of leverage it to be to get kind of as much mileage out of that as possible, because it is a big investment on your end, and obviously we try to limit ourselves from doing things that take up more than they give back. So tell me more about how this sort of feeds your business and maybe just your creativity in general.

Speaker 1  21:05

Well, the creativity, I would say, is more than it feeds my business at this point this year will be different, because that would pay for all my travel. But before it was more, you know, me getting to go to new locations and spending time with, you know, friends, because they were all friends, but the creativity as you know, well, maybe I don't know about you, but when I'm home, I shoot a lot at the same locations, and after a while that gets kind of boring, right? Like, it's good in a way that you know exactly how the lights gonna be at a certain time in this spot. And we can go right over there, but it just kind of gets to be, like, not, not fun. But you know what I mean? Like, it loses its Spark, where, when you're

Annemie Tonken  21:39

on a more efficient and less inspired? Yes, exactly,

Speaker 1  21:43

yeah. But when you're in a travel session, you're kind of winging it in a way. I mean, you might know exactly how the lights gonna be, because you went the night before, and you show up there, and there's a bunch of tourists there, and you can't use that spot on sudden, and you gotta right? And so for creativity, it's fantastic. And I feel like usually you're spending a lot more time together, because I always, I always tack on an extra hour confer, parking, hiking, changing clothes, you know, like, all of that stuff, because you do need that extra time. And you need, mentally, even you need that extra time to, like, figure things out. Things are just just a little bit slower when you're doing it. And that helps a lot. But as for, like, the business part of it, I think this is the first year where I'm going to get to that point, and this is year three where it'll be not just breaking eating, but like, making an actual profit. So for me, it was the travel, like, my goals for those years that I did that were not financial ones. They were traveling and doing whatever type of education I wanted so, right? And now this year, I'm pivoting a little bit because my goals have changed a little bit. You know what I mean? Like, every year, it feels a little bit different. And now this year, I'm like, I want to make a profit, like, beyond just traveling and doing education, but

Annemie Tonken  22:55

yeah, well, and let's talk a little bit about the financial side of this, because as much as I can totally see how this would be appealing to every single senior I've ever met, especially if they get to go with friends, it does not sound like an inexpensive way to have your seniors portraits made. So I'm guessing this is not something that you're just marketing to everybody. You're creating it as more of sort of an exclusive opportunity type thing.

Speaker 1  23:20

Luckily for me, it's more been word of mouth and seeing Okay, so if, if you're a stock for out there and you want to do travel sessions, it's a lot of marketing, like posting behind the scenes while you're there, building up the anticipation of where are we going, then making a bunch of reels and blog posts and all the marketing things that you can possibly think of, you should be doing that and then doubling it, if that makes sense, right? Because you know the algorithm. What is it they say was a 5% of you that your people see your things, and so you would, you hardly have to keep push, push, push, push. But then, typically, if you're posting like, let's say reels or sneak peeks, your seniors and their moms are posting them too. And that's how I do it. I just put as much behind the scenes, and maybe, like, I'm thinking of three locations, I'll put all three out there and put it on a poll, like, which three would you pick? You know, try to get the audience involved. But that's how I've did it. I mean, there's probably other ways that maybe are even better, but I've just kind of learned along the way, you know,

Annemie Tonken  24:19

sure, yeah. And I do feel like content wise, it gives you an edge, because this is something different, probably from what anybody else in your area is, is offering. And so people are more curious. They're more, you know, likely to click or respond or whatever, just because it is, it sort of stops the scroll, but yeah, I mean, the content job, the creation of the content is is its own addition to the workload for the process, I'm sure, but that is to sort of bring it back to the investment piece and the pricing piece. Have you tell me a little bit about the the do's and don'ts now that you've. Doing this for a few years, because I do feel like pricing something like that is hard because there are unanticipated costs, and we as photographers tend to get a little gun shy about presenting someone with what's probably a pretty big number,

Speaker 1  25:15

right? No, you're 100% right about that. So I've, like I said, I have four packages. My my top two, one of them is, I think 2750 and that's just a one session package. My top package for travel is $3,700 and that's for two sessions. And I made it so they had to pick one of the two, because otherwise I probably wouldn't even break even those first two years, right? Sure, I've still continued it this year, even though they're paying for my travel, they still have to pick one of the top two, because I still have to factor in the time I'm away from home and the shoots I can't be doing back home, just like you had said. And because I think it's the same price as my at home packages that that family probably would have chosen anyways, it doesn't feel as alarming when they see the price. I also put all my pricing on my website, like, I have, you know, my travel pricing and my senior pricing. I like to be very, like, clear about that. I don't have, like, it starts at $900 or whatever. I just have all the packages listed as a consumer. That's how I'd want to be if I went on a website. But everybody does it different. That's how I've priced it. I mean, I also feel like it's kind of like a wedding in a way, like a travel wedding in a way, because of, like, all the factors, and let's say they want to go to a certain park that needs a permit. They know that that's on them. You need to put that in your contract, to say, if there's any expenses, like some national parks, you have to have a contract. And those are things you need to also look at ahead of time. That is a little bit more extra work, right? Some are fine and you don't need them. Sometimes it's just weddings that actually need them. But you have to look into that. And usually it's 100 $150 you know, if it's going to be extra. And I tell my clients, that's something that if they want that location, that they'll have to pay for, or even entrance into the park, you know what I mean, right? Things like that. I just you need to lay out the expectations early on so they know right away what they're committing to, not later, when you get there and be like, Oh yeah, by the way, you need to pay for parking and the $100 I mean, that would feel different,

Annemie Tonken  27:12

right, right? And I do feel like there is. It's important when you're thinking about pricing luxury options, you know, which is what this is that you are upfront about, like, this is a luxury. I mean, you don't necessarily have to say this, but like everybody understands, this is not the bargain basement option, right? However, you don't want someone to ultimately feel like you're nickel and diming them or taking advantage. So it's in my experience, anyway, and I would love to hear your take on this. It's better to come across as a bit more expensive in the in the upfront, you can expect up to $500 in additional fees and blah blah blah for items like parking and park entrances and but put that into a number that they can wrap their head around, as opposed to like surprise. Here's another fee. Surprise, here's another thing. Or, Hey, I'm going to set submit an invoice to you after the fact, when you think you're all done paying like you want to. You want to make sure that that luxury experience feels luxury instead of like they're, you know, they bought a first class ticket, and now they're being charged for each one of their checked bags or whatever,

Speaker 1  28:23

right? No, I 100% agree with you on that, because it feels a lot different than getting there and having to pay for things. I do have a point to that I have learned also along the way to have in your contract and to do is now I asked to have half of it down when they book it, because I just used to have the session fee that they had to put down as their deposit, which was $300 but when you're looking at a package that's $3,700 and you put $300 yeah, it's lot easier to cancel that, because that's just a small amount of money, where now they have to put half down, and then the the balance has to be paid at least a month before we go. And then I have it also written, like, if you cancel two weeks before the trip, like you forfeit 50% of, you know, right, the whole cost. And I didn't realize that at the beginning, and I ran into a situation where, luckily, she was very kind and paid for the trip like she was going on it, but in my contract, I didn't have anything, so technically she didn't need to right after that. You kind of learn as you go, and you're like, oh my goodness, that's going to be my contract from

Annemie Tonken  29:26

now on. And yeah, it definitely seems like, if you are listening to this, and you're like, ooh, travel sessions, this is something that I want to roll out. This is one where I might recommend having a chat with your lawyer, like what I what needs to be modified in my existing contract, because it's not unlike and was, I can't remember you and I saw each other at a conference in the last couple of weeks, and we were, or I was, talking to a couple of people about the the responsibilities involved in. Hosting a conference, and the upfront costs and sort of liability that you take on as the planner of a conference, like you're signing a deal with a hotel, it's not quite the same when you're just talking about, you know, going on a trip with someone, but there are all those reservations that may or may not have, you know, they all have different cancelation policies and flights and all that sort of stuff. So you definitely want to make sure that it's all spelled out in your contract, so everybody knows exactly what the terms are.

Speaker 1  30:28

You for sure. And that's like you said, you do want, like you want a legit contract, not one that you make up, but when you get from a lawyer, that's right? I mean, I paid a lot of money for it, but you have to have that for your own safety reasons and for theirs, for that matter, right?

Annemie Tonken  30:43

Yeah, yeah. When somebody's investing that much, they like to know that you've thought it all through as well.

Speaker 1  30:50

You also need to talk to them about, let's say that there's crappy weather the entire time you because you don't have control over that when you know when you're flying somewhere, you need to have a plan B that is indoors that they are, they fully understand that, and they're know that that's very well be a scenario that happens. Let's say it's really bad at sunset and sunrise is no better. And you have that day, and that day, it was their last day. You know what I mean? You have to think about that one time it was raining, and so we shot in the lobby of the hotel resting out. Luckily, it was a really cool one. You know, where it the pictures turned out great. But you may have to go to a coffee shop or a museum or somewhere that's indoors that they had never anticipated shooting at. But as long as you can talk about that ahead of time, and they know that that's a possibility, they feel a lot better about it if it does happen, right? And they're not as panicked, right? So that should be to your point like,

Annemie Tonken  31:46

yeah, it is, in that way, like a wedding. If you're planning an outdoor wedding, you are you have to assume the risk of the weather may not cooperate. So all such good points, anything else that you would tell someone who is sort of mulling over the pros and cons of adding this to their lineup. Is there anything you wish you had known from the beginning? The contract

Speaker 1  32:10

part was what I think was the biggest piece that I wish I would have known from the beginning. And luckily, like I said, it turned out great. Actually, I'm doing her daughter's travel session this year, and so, I mean, we still had a great relationship after that, but it could have went the other way. I feel like, you know, and so I have your contract in place before you start doing these. And the other thing I would say is the way you market it and present it, you know, not that it's, it's more than just a senior session. It's like a once in a lifetime trip for some people, or in a core memory. And usually mom comes. Sometimes it's the whole family, but it's making that final memory their senior year with them, you know? Because as a mom, you know that last year you start like, feeling like, Oh, they're gonna be going to college. Next year I'm gonna lose my kid. Like, I feel like there's not much time left, and you you just want all these extra moments with them. For whatever reason. I don't know. I we have three family trips this year because I was panicking that two of my kids are going to going off to college next year, and we won't have everybody in the same house, and that's a lot of travel for me even. And so I I've been there. You've been there having seniors ourselves, like what that feels like that year. And I would say the other thing is, is I'm glad I started the way I did, where I just had it priced high enough to cover the cost of the trip for myself, I wasn't necessarily making a lot of money, probably not any, but I got the experience. I got to go to locations. And for me, that that was enough. If you really want to start travel sessions, you could look into doing something like that, like I did, because that really got the ball rolling. I've, you know, I've did probably at least a dozen travel trips, and a lot of times it was two seniors. So that worked for me, and I feel like that was a good way to start the business of travel. So, yeah, yeah.

Annemie Tonken  33:48

Well, and it's obviously, it can be a tricky thing to try and sell something that you have no portfolio of or, you know, experience to draw upon. So yeah, I love the kind of bootstrapping the business, especially if you've got friends who have seniors and can can make it a fun trip as well. So all such good insights. Well, Kelly, tell everyone where they can find you and where they can find out more about your process.

Speaker 1  34:13

Yeah. So I have a website, and it's Kelly richelle.com or on Instagram, it's Kelly Richelle photography. I think on Facebook, it's the same thing, and I'm even on Pinterest. I'm basically everywhere, except I'm not. I think you're on YouTube. I'm not on YouTube, but those would be the places to find me. And if anybody has any more questions about it, they can feel free to ask me. I'm happy to share what I do know. So love

Annemie Tonken  34:34

that. Yeah, so good. Well, it has been a pleasure chatting with you, and what a fun topic. We'll have to chat again soon. Thank you so much. Have a great day. That's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. If you like the show, be sure to check out. This can't be that hard.com. To explore all the resources we have for photographers. And of course, it would mean the world to me if you would. Leave a review of the show on iTunes or Spotify as always. Thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.