Scott:
Welcome to Legacy Code Rocks the podcast that explores the world of modernizing existing software applications. I'm your host, Scott Ford. This show is out to change the way you think about legacy code. If you're like a lot of people when you hear the phrase legacy code it conjures up images of big mainframes and archaic punch card machines. While that's true, it only tells a small part of the story. Anything that someone else has left behind is their legacy.
This episode is sponsored by Corgibytes. Corgibytes helps companies make their existing custom software systems more stable, scalable, and secure. Corgibytes specializes in upgrades, bug fixes, performance enhancements, and other mainframe activities designed to help tech companies generate revenue, lower operating costs, and reduce risk.
And today on the podcast we have Erin White. Erin is head of digital engagement at Virginia Commonwealth University libraries in Richmond, Virginia. They have been making websites for over 20 years and are fascinated by the intersections of equity, justice, and computer systems. They grew up in the deep south and now live in Richmond with their wife Coco and two pups who we might hear in the background. Yeah, so Erin thanks for being on the show.
Erin:
Thanks for having me. I'm so excited, so happy to be here.
Scott:
Yeah, awesome, so in your bio, I mentioned fascinated with the intersections of equity, justice, and computer systems. Like what drew you to that topic as something to be fascinated?
Erin:
That's a great opener and we, should we go way back to 1998? [both laughing] I guess at that time it was maybe a windows xp computer on a 56k internet connection.
Scott:
I can hear it, da da da daaa
Erin: Oh yeah.
Oh yeah, I could like I could sing along with our sign-on sounds for mind spring.
Um, and you know my parents were pretty ahead of the curve on on tech; they were fairly early adopters. Um, so we had our 56k internet and rural Alabama. You know that was like. That was the thing that I did. I was like, oh man the internet because.
Scott:
56k in rural Alabama you had like a good phone
Erin:
It was yes, it was good whether we actually pulled down 56k whether that was actually the speed that we got I'm not sure but.
Scott:
Right.
Erin:
You know, spent a lot of time just cultivating patience. [Scott laughing] Waiting for pages to load on you know. But at the time it wasn't there wasn't so much bloat and yadda yadda but. So I was you know I was a kid I was you know 13-14 sitting in front of this computer just staring into this huge wide web. Being like number one what the hell am I looking at and also number two how am I how am I finding myself in this space? Because I was in addition to being a dweeb. Straight up just like, nerd. Like lucky to have friends in the band.
Scott:
I was there too so yeah [Erin: yeah] yeah oh bang geek and and into computers.
Erin:
Oh yeah, it was a double whammy of unfortunate. [Scott laughing] So I I also knew something about me was different from a lot of my classmates and I didn't quite have the words for how I was moving through the world and I found so much. I was spending so much time as a kid using the internet to try to figure out who I was. So, I started actually building my own web pages and this is sort of how in the process of learning to create web pages and putting myself out online I sort of became myself as I learned to create for the web. I'm only realizing now how co-constructive both of those processes were.
But I spent time in the early days of blogger idolizing some of these other folks who are using blogger and refining my skills, developing templates, and HTML, and learning about CSS, [Scott: hmm] and all of that sort of was wound up together and blogging and reading other people's blogs and you know fla flash forward a few years and I've got a job as a web developer on the side. While I'm in college I'm like oh this is good you know the pay is pretty good. I'm a student. I'm focusing on school but this is this is a great way to make money.
At some point, I realized that this was actually supposed to be my career. [Scott laughing] and decided to focus more on my work than on my studies. Which actually still turned out okay and ended up in grad school for information science and catapulted to 2021 and I've been a librarian for 12 years working in digital.
And so so much of this journey has involved not only the actual building of digital things but so personally for me, learning who I am by creating them, by working with them, by working with other people's code. It's it's been a whole process and through it I've not only found continued clarity about who I am by reading about others’ lives, but I've also been challenged in the best ways. [Scott: hmm] By by seeing how technology either affirms or fails groups of people depending on how you how user interface behaves or how an algorithm is written.
And so much of technology um is really reflective of the humans who created it. And so it contains all our biases and all our preconceived notions about how the world works. And for us to believe that technology is sort of a neutral. You know cold scientific thing is really um that's really incorrect. So that's kind of a roundabout way of saying this is the the kind of question that really fascinates me and has for a long time is how does technology reflect who we are, [Scott: hmm] how does it distort who we think we are or who we think other people are, and how does it
leave folks out?
Scott:
Yeah yeah and I think like you know I think something that I found so fascinating in the early days of my exploration of you know the internet and and all it had to offer was just how neat it was to see like-minded communities form up around like really niche topics. Or maybe not even niche topics but topics that people weren't as open about I guess is maybe a good way to say it. Like aspects about themselves that people safety reasons kept quiet or you know kept themselves and stayed silent about. Whereas on the internet they could they could be more open and find other people who were like them
And finding people like them in their town like, especially if it’s a small town in the South like there might not have been anyone like you in your town or it may have been only one other person and your ability to find them could have could have felt really unsafe. But when you're you know when you're on the internet it becomes easier to find each other the promise of that I thought was really appealing at first and I feel like it's um it's it's it's turned and twisted a little bit in the last [Erin laughing] you know last last several years.
Erin:
Yeah, no doubt well I think a lot about the the promise of the early web and sort of our hypertext pioneers telling us and you know we us believing that the web was going to be this democratizing frontier where everyone was equal and everyone was free to publish content so sort of this like hypertext manifesto approach. And um what we know now is that the those early folks who are building the web were pretty homogeneous in terms of who they were you know it's mostly um cisgender straight white men with money and access to computing and and that sort of shaped the the environment that we have today. I mean the demographics have certainly shifted over time I think for the better to be more diverse and representative of who we are, especially in the U.S. But I think it's it's both a you know the web was so pure and in the mid-late 90s in some ways it was but in some ways, it was completely unavailable to folks.
Scott:
Mmhmm
Erin:
But um you know I also think about the the early Usenet groups and forums. I think I found an archive of some of those those early forums and those were actually some really amazingly liberating spaces for folks who were sexual or gender minorities. Folks finding that space to be able to talk with each other and and create community and share their experiences. And at the same time those spaces remain pretty white and middle class as well so it's it's complex there's a lot going on.
Scott:
Yeah and I think like you just my limited exposure to those communities they also seem to be like really well moderated and self-policed. With the good and the bad that comes with that right like you know I'm sure there is gatekeeping and aspects of that and like you know not necessarily being welcoming and at the same time also doing a pretty good job to keep what was considered to be unacceptable behavior out.
Erin:
Right
Scott:
So there's a little bit like good and bad of that moderation.
Erin:
Yeah and I think we see evolutions of that as well right. Where we're seeing more and more codes of conduct for how we create and participate in community online. Some organizations even applying that to say even their GitHub issues and commits and how they interact with each other in multiple different spaces so one other interesting part of this is just how we co-create community and think about the rules and aspirations that we have for those spaces so that we can create them together.
That's been one connecting thread over time that I've found really I think exciting and inspiring makes you think about the power of the collective to really shape what a community should look like but at the same time, we've also seen terrible examples of that.
Scott:
Right.
Erin:
Where we've seen people do like gatekeeping on well back to issues like back to GitHub issues you know. Um saying you know closing a ticket and saying it's irrelevant, um using comments to harass and bully black folks brown folks trans folks, and using those as ways to to diminish people's contributions as well.
Scott:
Yeah it's really unfortunate I've seen there's a webcomic that I'm rather fond of that has a panel that's a little bit more graphic in the way it says it but it's basically like anonymity plus the internet equals like a really horrible person. [both chuckling] um like like when you when you when you put those two these two [Erin: right.] things together that you know perceived in an in an enemy and a really large platform or a large potential audience and it just seems to sometimes bring up the worst in some of us.
Erin:
Right because without well sort of that verification there's no accountability [Scott: yeah] of knowing who a person really is and how their actions might impact folks. I think about this a lot in terms of name policies. When when Facebook was when it was earlier days in Facebook land and Zuckerberg said something about you know use your real name. Something something it's really I'm butchering whatever he said but [both laughing] but he was basically like you shouldn't have anything to hide you need to use your real name. And the under underlying assumption there was though there's one name that everybody uses in every context that they always go by and to do anything other than that or to use anything other than that is an act of malice maybe or um being intentionally misleading. But we now know and widely acknowledge that folks are called different names in different circumstances [Scott: mmhmm] either for reasons um of relationships like they have different relationships with different folks and they get called different names different eras of their lives and also for safety. So some people may have changed their name to to more closely reflect reflect their gender identity. So the name they use in one context may be the name that um is typically associated with folks of a whole another gender than say their government name their legal name.
Scott:
Yeah and especially especially if they feel they outwardly present if they feel most people would assume I guess that's a better way to say it most people would assume that they're a gender that doesn't match who they are then choosing a name that's going to better fit with people's assumptions you know could be very much a safety issue.
Erin:
Yeah, absolutely. So names wait how do we get to names though how did we get here?
Scott:
Facebook, it’s Facebook’s fault. [Both laughing]
Erin:
But you know that's that was the that was the thing that sort of dropped me into thinking about trans-affirming trans-inclusive systems design was really this sort of really painful disconnect for our students who are using these systems on campus. You know assumed your legal first name your government name is the name that everybody uses and these students are like I'm transitioning, I'm using a different name and now my classmates know my government name and I've been effectively outed in class and I don't feel safe.
Scott:
Right.
Erin:
So, that was the context that got me thinking even more specifically about about trans-affirming systems design and and how trans folks could actually what would a world look like where trans folks actually see themselves in systems rather than simply accommodated what if if they truly were affirmed and celebrated?
Scott:
Yeah so like I think like it's it's important to kind of look for a system that's not trans-inclusive or maybe makes assumptions about gender or you know um you know how that how that could affect people. Maybe kind of like diving into that for people who are listening who might not have encountered that as much before so um how is that showing up in the library system at VCU?
Erin:
Yeah well, we ended up doing an audit of all of our systems. And this is this is sort of an example of how
when systems rely on each other for data whether we're using APIs, or doing ingests, nightly data dumps in our case um from identity management systems we're just sort of receiving this data uncritically and putting it into our systems but what we were able to do in the library once we realized that the first name we were receiving for people was the the legal first name and that that's not
a name that everyone uses. We developed our own workaround that actually would take that batch ingest and rewrite names it was a very manual process we ended up we would get an email from someone who says don't call me that call me this and we would put it into our script to update their names automatically. So it was really a little ham-fisted. It sure worked. [Erin laughs]
Scott:
And how did how did people know that they needed to even email you I imagine that was kind of a [Erin: yeah] not something that was easy to discover.
Erin:
Yeah, so we had to publicize this of course so we would work with different groups on campuses different offices that liaised with LGBTQ students different faculty groups through central technology services which had a page about how to update your names on some other platforms. So it was there was a lot of messaging work involved with that and letting folks know that this was happening and making sure folks knew that they were opting into this rather than uh being opted into having it having the change made for them automatically. So yeah there was there was some amount of social socializing the idea.
I think we also ended up the library ended up sort of pressing on the larger campus I.T. a bit to be thinking about this more and to perhaps have more urgency about it. It certainly didn't hurt that our dean was really one of the people who brought this to us and was like this is harming my wife's student.
So we need to fix this. I'm like you're right perfect thanks for your support let's do it. And at the time I was not um out as non-binary at work. That actually happened after a lot of this this work came to fruition I was finally like oh we did all this work. Oh and also by the way my pronouns are they and them, thanks a lot. And that was almost two years ago and it's been really great and very it's felt really welcoming but. Um it's helpful to have sponsors at the highest level who care
Scott:
Yeah as I say that's it's awesome to have somebody using their positional power like that to to try to try to affect change in in that direction in a way that you know will improve people's lives and safety.
Erin:
Yeah absolutely. And I also just found myself leveraging my own relationships with folks that I developed over the years prior to just reach out sideways and say hey we're working on this do
y'all have this is this something that you've thought about is this something that you would support. And eventually um we ended up getting up a lot of support from across campus and the system was finally updated at VCU for folks to enter a a name of use. I think that went into production late last summer so it's here, it's great.
Scott:
Awesome and that that name of use is is you know distinct from like the given given name or legal name [Erin: right] and then and then I'm guessing the the system is very careful about which name to which name to display when it's displaying somebody's name in different contexts.
Erin:
Right, so there are very few contexts when we actually need to display folk’s full legal first name. There's some related to I think billing and collections um and maybe one or two other examples mostly legal. But the way the system at VCU works is that the name of use is the only name that goes to your system unless you absolutely need that legal first name in which case you can request access to that field. I think it's a great move I think this is also an example of one of those technologies that that helps a bunch of different people. I ended up going through our library staff directory we have we have about 140 people on staff at the library and something like a third of us are using names that are different from our full legal first name. Whether we're going by by middle names or by, um more familiar versions of first names like Jimmy instead of James. [[unintelligible cross talk]] Um yeah it actually hits a lot of different people. And you know some people would see it as a minor annoyance. And you know for other folks it's it's a safety issue so just it just runs the gamut and um it's one change that actually is a pretty big quality of life increase for a lot of Folks.
Scott:
Yeah, I think you know I've I've been called by my middle name my whole life so that my parents named me Matthew Scott but never called me Matthew unless I was in trouble. [Both laughing] Um so that's that's that was one of the indications that I was you know I'd cross the line as if my mom threw out Matthew, uh to to address me [Erin: Uup, you’re in some doo doo.] and get my attention you're yeah exactly or like you know the first day of school was always like you know calling roll and the names go out and I would correct the teacher and then usually honored after that. But that was like I mean thinking to myself like as a first, second, third-grader like you know Kindergartener and just like how uncomfortable I felt having to do that and how odd and different I felt and that's with me being a cis white male without having any of the safety concerns that come with having to correct somebody.
Erin:
Yeah, imagine being in a classroom and you're your professor calling role and they call your your first name your legal first name and you're going by a totally different name. It happens a lot. And a lot of folks just sort of call the role without really thinking about it or lean on that rather than just saying hey okay well let's go around and introduce ourselves on the first day and if you use a name that's different than what I've got on my roll just say you know I use a different name.
Scott:
Okay, that's I mean I mean like that's more of a social system but it's like like [laughing] because because I feel like the the the easy way is just to read the sheet and go down and like this is what I'm going to read. [Erin: right] well I guess like you could even go back a step and like that sheet was printed out by an id system. [Erin: right] like it could have given the professor the names these people use and then you could skip that problem.
Erin:
Right, yep. And you know the most the most efficient computational way of course is to read the name read the list and just have folks [both laugh] say whether they're here but you know some of the thinking through some of the other ways that um systems can impose ideas about gender. There's there's the binary of course. [Scott: mmhmm] So and computers run on binaries we love the idea of ones and zeros [Scott: Yes] and love simplifying things when possible to off or on yes or no and so frequently we do that with gender too right. [Scott: mmhmm] It's like okay you're one of the other you're either male or female that's it. And those are the options you know you've got a form asking for gender, typically unnecessarily. And you know there's two options it's like okay well that's great but you know what about what about me? Like I don't really consider myself a woman [Scott: mmhmm] so what do I check here? And do I have to just check the best fit?
Also, you know why is this data being collected in the first place if there's no transparency there about [Scott: mmhmm] what that field's actually going to be used for. I mean to this day you sign up for Facebook and it says okay welcome to Facebook give me your first and last name, your contact email, and also tell us if you're a boy or a girl. And they have other options now. They've had an other option for the past few years but it's also like why do I need to give Facebook my gender to create an account?
Scott:
Why does it even need to know other right? [Erin: yeah] Yeah that's that's a good question so.
Erin:
It's like in one way is it's it's great news that there's more than one option there, but in other ways, it's like why is that option even there at all what are y'all doing with this information? [Scott: mmhmm] Even though we we know full well that it's used to sell us things.
[Crosstalk] [Scott: right] [Erin: and for a time] [Scott: to make assumptions about you]
Erin:
Yeah, right. To make assumptions about you based on your gender which is actually harmful to everyone regardless of what their gender is. I think one thing we often don't think about or maybe take for granted is that when when systems are actively sort of reinforcing that binary or when ad preferences are reinforcing a binary about gender that's either man or woman usually what you get is just something that's sort of reductive and uninspiring and something that doesn't reflect the lived experience of most people even.
Scott:
Yeah, I try to think back to you know why that information like would have been even collected on a hand filled out form and one of the like use cases that comes to mind is somebody needs to make a phone call and is trying to address somebody by by honorific. You know either Mr., or Mrs, or Miss and so and maybe the form doesn't specify that. And so you know by the person who's making the phone call at least having gender you know they can make what was you know at the time a you know socially acceptable assumption uh about what the honor the correct honorific should be.
Whereas, I feel like maybe that it got extended to making assumptions about pronouns right. So, that emails are written computationally using the correct gender pronouns. But I feel like there's there's like if if that's truly the reason why it's being collected there are other ways to get answers to those questions.
Erin:
Yeah, abs absolutely. One workaround for that is to ask for honorific straight up. And there's a gender-inclusive honorific Mx., pronounced mix, and it's
Scott:
Okay. I suppose there's my next question is what's the correct pronunciation?
Erin:
Yeah, so, Mx. White. I actually got an email addressed to me yesterday, you know be still my heart, this person addressing me properly is Mx. White. I, you know about fell out my chair.
But that's that's one way to do it. Another way is to to make that field completely optional. Some folks are uncomfortable with honorifics entirely and I can also say that honorifics are problematic for cisgender people too. You know my wife if she gets anything addressed to Mrs. Wolfgang [Scott: mmhmm, yep] she doesn't consider herself a Mrs., she [Scott: right] is in fact a doctor [both laughing] so there's there's a lot bound up in those honorifics. And I've recently um been talking to some different companies about getting some estimates for home repairs and it's just really interesting how people address me. I've gotten misses more often I I get miz pretty constantly which I now just sort of like I try to let it roll off my back but every time I'm just like you don't really have to call me anything you can just say Erin White is Erin White is this Erin White on the phone. Hello, my name is so and so. But we also want to be polite to each other and show deference.
Especially if we're trying to get people's money [Scott: right. {laughing}] So I definitely understand right the struggle is real you know I was in world of mirth last fall shopping for um presents for my nephews and um the the associate comes up to me and they're like hello friend can I help you today? And it was really nice. I just really appreciated that sort of kind and gender-inclusive Salutation. [Scott: mmhmm] Um had a really just like nice conversation with this person about what I was looking for they recommended some good stuff that my nephews ended up loving. But that was just a it just really stuck with me that interaction. So I think having a minute to think about what a courteous interaction could look like that also doesn't assume things about people's identity. I think we underestimate the sort of impact that can have on people [Scott: mmhmm] to feel like they're being included by what you're saying
Scott:
Yeah yeah, I think you know I I imagine uh like a legacy system again talking about about gender and you know only having two or only having one or maybe even not making that an editable field like maybe it's the kind of thing it's like you pick it once and you can't change it. [Erin: right] And the transformations that have to be added to those systems to allow that. And then I could like something that I think of a lot like you were mentioning data dumps earlier you know if you're receiving a data dump that is more inclusive than the system that you're inputting data into like what do you what are you supposed to do?
[Erin: right] Like let's say you're interacting with an API that that forces a binary but your data is much more open than that it is much more representative of who people are. Like I can only imagine the challenges that you you have to go through to figure out like. The the programmer sitting there at the keyboard coding that up is gonna have to make an assumption [Erin: right] it's gonna have to say like okay these genders collapse to female these genders collapsed to male simply because the way this this external system is is set up. [Erin: yeah] and that's that's a challenge that I think it has to be happening out there somewhere.
Erin:
Oh yeah, absolutely. I think it's also potentially a good time to think about are the set of ethics that we have about the work that we do and how we approach thorny problems like this as a as a rule. [Scott: mmhmm] So is this an instance when as we reflect on our work and think about the types of decisions we make we actually say this actually doesn't this isn't good this doesn't work and we're going to either talk with the organization that's originating the API [Scott: mmhmm] and just really press on them to make changes or are we going to omit that field entirely? Or are we going to move to a different service or something like that what's what's the breaking point? Like what's the what's the point when you say actually this isn't good enough for us because we have these guiding values and this may seem like a small thing but it's actually invalidating and it's also cascading to every other service that's that's working with that API so
Scott:
It's going to get downstream of it.
Erin:
Yeah downstream yeah the impacts are are huge. So yeah I think it's it's super complicated. I think most systems are going to want to essentialize and perhaps oversimplify and so we have a choice about what we're going to do whether it's to inaccurately represent information and just to keep working with a service or whether we say no actually this is we're going to stop work until something changes here. [Scott: mmhmm]
Scott:
Are there other binaries that are just as just as toxic or challenging as having binary on gender?
Erin:
Yeah well I mean binaries in themselves can be pretty violent. So I know that sounds like hyperbole
Scott:
Explain that no no like like the hyperbolic it makes for a great podcast.
Erin:
Sure sure so um so I think the way the way our psychology works as human human brains is that we categorize and we put things into buckets and we decide what things are and what they aren't. This is partially a survival mechanism so that we don't have to spend all day every day processing every single input that we receive through our senses. So that if I look at a creature walking down the street I don't have to spend time thinking okay that that is probably a human and not a dog [Scott: right] So in some ways categories are incredibly helpful and they just automate so many things about moving through the world that would be just overwhelming
otherwise. But at the same time, we have categories that are one or the other when we have a binary that sort of pits things against each other with a clear delineating line between that is a time when those differentiations, I had a whole like steam train of thought and I just like completely went off off the rails.
Scott:
That happens yeah we can either we're gonna just keep going and and recover or you could try to go back and start over.
Erin:
Yeah, I think I'll try to get back on the train, so [Scott okay] so when you have that strong delineating line it's often one that creates inequality. So I’ll give you some other examples: either you're white or you're not that's the foundation of so much of American culture [Scott: right] and you know the foundation of the U.S. is the exploitation and oppression of black and brown people. That's how this country was built. That's how institutions continue. That's how inequality perpetuates. That binary line was either one or the other so if you aren't white then you are other and you are less. And those types of binaries occur across identity and sectors including gender
Scott:
Yeah and then that can like like really impact people whose parents come from disparate groupings. [Erin: right] because because they may be considered to not belong to either [Erin: right] and they may feel that they belong to both to both and neither and um. God thinking through like you know racist American history, the one-drop rule right. [Scott: yeah] So if you have like one single ancestor who was black you are Black.
Scott:
But, by that definition according to ancestry I have relatives who are Neanderthals [Erin: yeah} so uh like because they they've got their [Erin laughing] their DNA tests right and it's like you know like you have you have you have approximately one percent Neanderthal DNA. So it's like oh like if you follow that one drop-drop rule their name yeah.
Erin:
But even like, to think about to be a total downer let's talk about 23 and me and all these DNA services right? They work for white people really well [Scott: yes] because of how they're designed and how you know where the data come from comes from how it's interpreted how it's collated and [Scott: who it was tested on] right and colonial histories and all these things but
Scott:
Yeah and the the colonial histories are like the ones that have the best data because it was preserved and not destroyed through violence. [Erin: exactly] um so there is this rich ancestry information uh and I think the amount of privilege that comes with that like knowing where you're where your people came from. You know the people who came before you even knowing knowing what part of the world they came from with a fairly big degree of certainty and kind of like the amount of privilege that comes with that.
Erin:
Yeah absolutely. This is a huge conversation in libraries and archives right now. Because the things that tend or have tended to over time to make their ways into libraries and archives are from the types of folks who have written history. The types of folks whose records have been preserved over time because they've been found important. People who [Scott: or because they won.] [Scott laughing]
Crosstalk:
[Erin: Right] [Scott: right, like, unintelligible]
Erin:
Or because they have access to institutions because they're institutions that they built. So they're like take my papers they're very important and it's you know it's receipts for q-tips you know. [both laughing]
So, lots lots going on but you know to come back to the the binary idea. It's like it's a can't unsee
kind of situation where once you once you perceive all the binaries around us and how they operate you kind of it's sort of a doom spiral. So, you know remember to breathe. I think understanding how detrimental they can be is really important in understanding how we can counter them and how the systems we build can sort of reject them and allow folks to truly have like the beautiful bouquet of lived experience reflected.
Scott:
And even in the tech industry you know this is something that Andrea Goulet (sp) our former co-host and my business partner like really pushed me on was kind of the idea that technical versus non-technical. And how [Erin: yes] you know it's can be a continuum and I I think that's one of those things that her really pushing me in that direction and me trying to not use that as a binary I see it so often and I notice it in other contexts too because I'll be referring to like even team members.
We have on my organization we have a group of team members who are who are employed to software developers and we have a group of team members who are not employed as software developers. And so often refer to the group who are employed to software developers as developers and the other group as non-developers and I'm like that's not like this doesn't feel right anymore right. Because I find myself making that making that binary distinction and you know I even though I say it I might be thinking of employment status but it could be received differently. Like it the the person person hearing that could think oh I'm not capable of being a developer I'm a non-developer. [Erin: yeah] and I really wonder about that.
Erin:
And I think that that sort of technical non-technical developer non-developer. Well first of all there's the sort of non in front of it which has its own problems as a label. But to to connect this to larger systems of inequality and our history we think about access to technology in the past and what we all acknowledge about the technology workforce and the demographics of it over the past 30 years or so that there's still a problem with representation in tech and so we you know. [Scott: mmhmm] We all sort of had that in the back of our minds so when these terms like software developer and non-developer are are used it sort of reinforces and reminds us of that history and also maybe limits our thinking about what the future could look like. And in some ways it also limits the folks who are software developers from identifying right from identifying [Scott; unintelligible] with and really working on their non-development skills which are you know so much of software development is people and um I think we don't talk about that as much as we as we should.
Scott:
Yeah I mean there are many points during my career the idea that I could not communicate uh well or effectively or couldn't be trusted to oh it was reinforced. [Erin: Yeah, that's a real bummer.] And you know then that's it's something that consciously have to work against like you know whenever I choose to try to give a presentation whenever I choose to write an email to a customer. Like I can do this.
Erin:
[Excitedly] You can in fact! Yeah, when you you can do it well. Yeah no I I think about this I've been thinking about this recently I mean to bring it back to gender identity a little I think about this recently in terms of you know another binary being either you're trans or you're not so you're you're trans or your cis so how having even that binary is actually that's a false binary. People's gender identities change throughout their lives. There's valid expressions of gender identity that are neither nor that are both and I think so to create that wall between trans and cis is actually um it's really harmful for all. And I also think that it's important for folks who identify as cisgender to to think about their genders. You have you have genders how is how does my gender impact how I move through the world? How does it impact how I interact with people, and how I present myself, how I dress you know it's not just trans people that think about this or that should be thinking about this.
You know I think for people to just really reflect regardless of their gender identity on on what their gender is and how they how they do it who they are I think it's so important and to bring that level of critical thinking. Because there there's so much richness there and even within within the cisgender and transgender buckets there's just so much. So I just like think that having that dividing wall is is harmful
Scott:
So let's let's imagine that we have a listener who is working on a system that currently has a binary gender and they would like to move in the direction of making that not binary anymore. What are some tips, or suggestions, or advice you have for them on how to how to get started?
Erin:
How to move into the world of non-binary life?
Scott:
I think or like get at least get the the ID system that they're working on to move into the world I I don't want to make assumptions about the the people working [Erin: right right] but like you know you you know you can speak very objectively like the system hard card codes you know gender as one of two things. [Erin: yeah] And so like where where might somebody start start changing that?
Erin:
I think you know high level doing an audit of how how names are handled so are you do you require a legal name for anything? If not let people choose their name let people update it does that name cascade to their username are they able to change a username so. I'm thinking specifically of like if you know I've signed up for Gmail 17 years ago and you know now I need to I'm changing my first name I want to change my Gmail account I want to bring over my entire history am I able to do that?
Scott:
Would you still get emails if they're sent to the old address?
Erin:
Right yeah so forwarding redirects all the stuff so even a name audit is going to be huge. And um I followed up with a gender audit. So whether you're asking for gender anywhere why do you actually need it are you asking for people to indicate gender or a title. So if you're asking people what would you like us to call you Dr. Ms. Mister, add that Mx. field and if possible make it optional because some folks are just not into it.
I think it also depends on what your product does so you know if the company you're working for is selling gendered products maybe this is the time for you to sort of take this take this up the chain and say hey you know what if this isn't a thing. What if we do something different? Which may not be within your chain of command or your [Scott: mmhmm] your job description but starting to open up your mind and think about that and talk to your colleagues about it too because it may not be in everybody's mind. And then there's also things like whether you're using stock photography or other images on your site. Do they represent diversity of lived experiences do you have folks who who are not white, who are not young able-bodied, who maybe aren't conventionally gender presenting. So maybe just folks dressed in different types of clothing or with different gender presentation. There's a few different open photo libraries on the web the broadly gender spectrum collection comes to mind. I know there's a few more but just sort of thinking about the the content of the web and how users are communicated within the language that we use. Singular they instead of he or she. And thinking through um who do we assume our users to be and who are we leaving out on accident. That's sort of some big hits.
Scott:
Yeah and it sounds like you could have kept going
Erin:
There's there's a few but you know. I'm still learning about this stuff too reading um right now I'm reading Design Justice which is really interesting. I'm just talking about how to bring more folks into the fold earlier when doing design projects, not just web design but this is the type of stuff that that's our job. right? We need to keep learning and and pressing on our brains [Scott: yes] in different and new ways to make new new thoughts escape from the folds. [Scott: yeah] We we can't stay stagnant we just really have to keep pushing ourselves and talking to people and making sure that what we're building is something that's gonna serve everybody
Scott:
Are there any resources or communities you would recommend that people reach out to as they're starting that journey to make their systems more inclusive in this aspect?
Erin:
Yeah, there's um there's an article on a list apart called trans-inclusive design of [Scott: oh, fancy that] oh fancy that yeah it's almost a couple years old it's almost a couple years old but it's a starting point and there's some high-level stuff there touching on everything from like information architecture to AI surveillance. There's machine learning stuff I've thought about since then you know back to the binaries but that's a starting point and I've seen a few different guides come out that sort of collect together different inclusive design resources. There's just so much info on the web about inclusive design. I'd really love to see it there's so much out there. The list apart article's a starting place but there's there's just so much at your fingertips it's easy to find.
Scott:
Awesome. Visit your favorite friendly search engine.
Erin:
Right right and you know it's a moving target also terms change ideas change norms, especially because internet. You know our ideas and standards and how we how we talk about things how we conceive things it changes regularly. So that's again to keep educating and and reading is so important yeah.
Scott:
I think I think it's also important to keep in mind you know language and culture are dynamic fluid chaotic systems [Erin: absolutely] the IT systems that we're creating if they have to interact with either language or culture which I imagine that's all of them. I I challenge you to find one that doesn't in some way interact with language or culture or is somehow influenced by it. But it either has to be adaptable in the face of those changes or stay rigid and look like it stands out as as norms and conventions change.
Erin:
Yeah, and I think that it's also a good reminder for us to continue to engage in good faith and to have some humility, and be ready to admit if we get something wrong we slip up. I mean this happens all the time so just being open to knowing that you're not going to get it right all the time is so key.
Scott:
Yeah, awesome. Well, Erin I I really enjoyed chatting with you I could chat with you even even longer um [Erin: yeah] I do you try to keep these episodes from being too ridiculously long [both laughing] so thanks a whole bunch for for coming on the show. Where can people get in touch with you if they have any questions or want to learn more?
Erin:
I am on Twitter @ErinrWhite and I am very online so that's the best place to to reach out.
Scott:
Awesome and then one question we like to ask all of our listeners: What is one thing that you love about legacy code?
Erin:
I love that it tells a story.
Scott:
I like that.
Erin:
Yeah, that's all I'm gonna say. Rich histories
Scott:
Yeah yeah, and you work in libraries.
Erin:
Also, it's it's it's doing a thing correctly more often than you'd like to admit maybe inelegantly but it's it sure is doing the damn job [Scott: mmhmm] around your weird business rules. Maybe I'm just speaking about libraries now but we've got some weird business rules.
Scott:
One of my first jobs was for a library automation vendor so I have I have some experience there.
Erin:
Oh yeah, it's a mess.
Scott:
Yes, the mark specification is a fascinating beast of it's own
Erin:
Yeah and probably not much has changed since you worked there but let's crack open a beer and talk about that one.
Scott:
Awesome. Well thanks again, and thanks everyone who's listening and if you'd like to continue the conversation amongst each other and chat with other listeners we have a slack community that you can check out for that you can join that by visiting slack.legacycode.rocks we also have a weekly virtual meetup that you can attend. There you can find out more information about that by going to the virtual meetup room in slack. That's where you will find a link to the meetup and the next one and when it happens those are usually on Wednesdays at 1 pm eastern time. And you can also visit the website legacy.rocks and sign up for our newsletter which comes out occasionally. And in general, just keep in touch and thank you all for listening and bye.