Season 2, Episode 28: Emergent Strategy Podcast
“Answering Your Call with Nicole Newman and Aja Taylor”
*Please note: these transcripts are intended to increase the accessibility of the podcast; there should be no reprinting or distribution without permission.
Nicole: (00:00) The only ground that I have is the ground that I cultivate inside of me. And that can't be what Aja gives me. It can't be what my partner gives me. It can't be what my friends give me. It can't be what--. I have to be in a practice of deeply rooting myself. And if I am not rooted, I can't practice anything else.
Music Break: (00:21) Theme Music (“Wolves” - Hurray for the Riff Raff)
adrienne: (00:41)Hello, hello, and welcome to the Emergent Strategy Podcast, hosted by the Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute. We are a collective of facilitators, mediators, trainers, and curious human beings, interested in how we get in right relationship with change. Today, I will be guiding our interview. I'm adrienne. I am the Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute's writer in residence. And as a refresh moment, emergent strategy is the way we generate and reshape complex systems and patterns with relatively simple interactions. And this is the fifth year of the book being out, so, we are in a year long celebration of being five years old. Very proud of ourselves. We're tying our own shoes and things like that. And today we have two outstanding, delicious, delightful guests with us. We have Aja Taylor and Nicole Newman of Two Brown Girls Consulting. I wanna just say that Aja and Nicole are this dynamic duo that shows up into a room and just changes the conditions, kind of just blows it all up with: whatever's happening, now, something else is more possible, and it might be because of what Nicole brings as a poet facilitator. It might be that Aja comes walking in with a total sashay of sensual power release and is just, like, okay, now here we are. It might be the two of them in a deep analytical reset, redirecting. They're both deeply rooted in organizing in the DC area. And I, I swoon. I'm smitten. These are two homies. We have a group thread. It's all happening. So, we're here together, and I think the first thing I wanna ask you all is how are you right now, today?
Aja: (02:38) So this is Aja. I use she and her pronouns. And how I am today. I actually feel really good. I convinced my sister to take out my hair, and by convinced, I mean bribed her.
adrienne: (02:52) Mm.
Aja: (02:53) Because that is how you convince an Aquarius--
adrienne: (02:56) That's right.
Aja: (02:57) --to do things. You pay them. And beg. You know, you also have to withho--, withstand their, their--
adrienne: (03:04) It's both.
Aja: (03:05) --meanness.
adrienne: (03:05) Mm.
Aja: (03:05) Right? Right. So <laugh>. So, you know. But I'm feeling good, cause I'm here. I'm released from goddess locs and now can be back on my bald head ho shit. Can I say that?
adrienne: (03:20) Yeah, you can say whatever.
Aja: (03:22) Okay, great.
adrienne: (03:23) Oh, they're gonna know you a ho, girl. <all laugh>. That's a big part of our, our, our learnings today is--
Aja: (03:30) Awesome.
adrienne: (03:30) --your, your professional hoism. And Nicole, how are you today? Right now?
Nicole: (03:36) I am good. I feel so playful and light. And so, I'm like, I don't know. I don't know what I'm gonna say, but I just am like, ahh, whatever. And, you know, the world feels heavy, but I'm just like, yeah, I'm not, I'm--. I choose not to carry it.
adrienne: (03:52) Listen. Ooh, see, okay. I just wanna say that that's the essence of Nicole right there.
Aja: (03:58) Period.
adrienne: (03:59) It's just like, here's the simplest thing. It sounds like a castoff line, but if you slow it down: "The world feels heavy. But I'm choosing not to carry it." Is a t-shirt. It's a mantra. It's a way of life. It's a poem. It's all happening. So, there you go. We're here. I'll say how I'm doing is, I'm feeling bright today, like the sun is bright, my tortoise is kicking it outside. Like, just really getting their walk on and just kind of being like, let's be active today, mom. You know, and I got my swim in, like, first thing today.
Aja: (04:33) Come on now.
adrienne: (04:34) So, when I start my day with a swim, it's just, like, after that, like, who is coming for the mermaid? I don't understand why you would. And, and then I get to talk to y'all. <laugh> So, for me, this is a really good day, and I'm jazzed. So, one of the things we often do with people is we like to start off by asking if you already identify as emergent strategists. And sometimes we'll uplift, like, here's elements that we see. For both of you, because you have literally come through the process and path of facilitating with us, holding space with us, like, y'all have co-hosted one of the immersions, the DC immersion that we had; I feel like you already are there, but I wanna just check it with you. Are y'all--, are you down? <Nicole and Aja laugh>
Nicole: (05:28) Are you gang? Are you gang? Yes.
adrienne: (05:29) Are you gang? Yes. Okay.
Aja: (05:31) Yeah, yeah. We're gang. We, we talk about it. We talk about you all the time. We're always starting trainings and like, strategy sessions with a quote, grounding the space in a quote. Cause you really just gave so much in Emergent Strategy, in Pleasure Activism that really puts into words a lot of the things. And I think this, this is the really beautiful thing about Emergent Strategy, right? They're things that we--, that we're like, oh yes, this is our deepest knowing. These are things we already know to be true. And you helped to articulate those things in ways that are concise and that are easy for people to access and see themselves in. And so that has really been a gift. Yes, we consider ourselves emergent strategists, and you know, before, I think, that we understood what it was, were doing things in this particular way, but feel so buoyed, I think is the word I'm, I'm reaching for, by the work of emergent strategy and, like, the work of immersions. And how emergent strategy itself is emergent has just been really beautiful.
adrienne: (06:40) Yay. Thanks Aja.
Nicole: (06:43) I've been sharing "Murmurations: How To Be Accountable With Your Words," with everybody.
adrienne: (06:51) Yay. That makes me so happy.
Nicole: (06:53) Everybody. Read it right now.
adrienne: (06:54) I was like, read it right now, y'all.
Nicole: (06:57) Right now. Because you know, one of the things I think--. Aja and I fight about this a lot, is cause I don't always be like--. I'm like, unh, I'm not a organizer, I dunno. Right? So, labels sometimes, and what we name ourselves are really powerful to me. And so--, but I feel like the title or the, you know, tradition and lineage of emergent strategy is something I fully embrace, not only in our consulting work, but inside of organizations. It's how I wanna move inside of organizations. Cause I think--. I--, there's just so much possibility there.
adrienne: (07:29) Yeah.
Nicole: (07:29) Mm-hmm.
Aja: (07:30) I mean, and even inside of personal relationships, like familial relationships. Yeah.
adrienne: (07:34) Yeah. I was about to say, like, I've been really practicing it in my home life, and I'm just sorta like, guess what, mom and dad? <laugh>. Okay. So, I introduced you in the way that I introduce you. Is there anything else that y'all are like, here's how we would introduce ourselves. Here's what we want people to know about how we move in the world, how we create change in the world and your partnership, right? Like, y'all are very distinct beings who come together and make this offering. And it's one of my favorite collaborative pairs out there, right? Like, I just love the way you are with each other. So could y'all--? Yeah, share with people, like here's how you would introduce yourselves and particularly as a pair.
Nicole: (08:20) Yeah, I mean I think I would always--. I, I have been walking more and more into the title of, like, poet, right? So I'm a writer. It's part of my--
adrienne: (08:30) <squeals>
Nicole: (08:30) Oh, see she's--.
adrienne: (08:30) I'm so happy to hear that.
Nicole: (08:32) Right, it's--it's been a long time coming--
adrienne: (08:33) I'm so happy to hear that. <laugh>
Nicole: (08:34) --but--
Aja: (08:35) Yes. Praise God.
Nicole: (08:36) So, I would identify as being a poet and writer. I think I also really deeply identify as a sister and a daughter. Like, in terms of where I practice the most emergent strategy, it's inside of those relationships. Both my partner, my--, you know, my mama, my daddy, my brother. And I think the other thing is just really being, like, I'm a--, I think I'm a little bit--. You know, facilitator is a, is a word, but I'm starting to walk more in my coach identity.
adrienne: (09:10) Okay.
Nicole: (09:11) Right.
adrienne: (09:11) Beautiful.
Nicole: (09:12) As I--. Like I'm, yeah. I'm like, oh I wanna coach organizers, I wanna coach people--
adrienne: (09:17) Yeah.
Nicole: (09:17) --in a way that doesn't feel, like, extractive, but it feels like partnership with people--
adrienne: (09:22) Yeah.
Nicole: (09:22) --to really help them to do the work that I do every day. Which is, can I get--, can I get a layer deeper inside of this body?
adrienne: (09:31) That's right. Ach, I'm so glad I asked.
Aja: (09:34) I'm, like, really literally trying not to cry.
adrienne: (09:36) And, you know what? I wanna say, crying is okay here, but--. Because, you know, when you love someone for a long time, and you know that they're a writer, or you know some truth about them, and then you see them claim it for themselves, it really is one of the most delightful, powerful things. So--
Aja: (09:51) It is; it's been a very long time coming <adrienne laughs> and this just feels really beautiful and I feel--. <sigh> Yeah, I just want all good things for you ,and I want you to have all of the things and the deliciousness, and the accolades--and I know that's not what it's about, but I want you to have it, cause you deserve it, more than so many people. And not that it's about more than or less than, but you do. <adrienne laughs> And I just love that for you. And I love it for me.
Nicole: (10:22) Who are you?
Aja: (10:23) Yeah, I'm sorry. I'm such a fan. So, I am the president of Nicole's fan club, number one.
adrienne: (10:29) Fair. fair.
Aja: (10:29) That's probably my first, my first identity <adrienne laughs>. I am--. Man, am I still an organizer? Is a question that I'm in. People identifying me as an organizer even though I'm not sure if that's my identity anymore.
adrienne: (10:43) Yeah.
Aja: (10:44) I am certainly a facilitator of mischief and of magic. I'm the eldest daughter, like Nicole is. So that's just kind of our role--
adrienne: (10:52) That makes three of us.
Aja: (10:54) --in families. That's right. So. Always unsurprising to me when eldest daughters become facilitators, cause that is how we survive.
adrienne: (11:02) <laugh>. Exactly.
Aja: (11:03) And how we help our families survive.
adrienne: (11:05) Yeah.
Aja: (11:05) We're like, oh, you don't have to do this. This is what I think I hear you saying. <laugh>
adrienne: (11:09) Yes. I think I hear something.
Aja: (11:11) Yeah, and all four elements in this house. So it was a lot: a Leo, a Gemini, an Aquarius, and a Taurus walk into a bar.
adrienne: (11:16) Oh wow.
Aja: (11:19) Yes, yes. That's what's been happening my whole life. So, facilitator. Also, a very, like, joyful person. Also identify as a sister. I will go to war for my girl. I will go to war for my family. I will go to war for Black people. And that's just kind of how I roll. I am a--. I don't really do the middle. I'm either very low key or I'm on a thousand. I am an introvert that people don't identify as one, cause I have a big personality. I am in leadership at a nonprofit for now. I am a sex educator, and I really love that. And I love talking about sex and Black people in sex, and women in sex, and non-binary people in sex. I love talking about it. I love talking about pleasure-- again, feel like Pleasure Activism gave so much to so many people, including those of us who have always felt really deep roots in pleasure and felt pleasure was central not only to our personal lives, but our practice, as people who talk to other people about sex and good sex. I'm a dominatrix based in DC, but with clients in other places, too. I'm a kink educator. So, talk to people about how to do the nasty things they wanna do safely, and how to not have shame about it. How to still have the curiosity and the secrecy that things like BDSM offer. So some of that is the specific kink, but not the--, some of the shame and stigmatization that can come with that, too. And helping people talk through the balance and think through how to thread the needle. I've never identified as a coach before. And in fact, like, in our practice I'm always, like, oh yeah, Nicole, because Nicole is an excellent coach. Yeah. But I find when it comes to talking to people about their sex lives and their pleasure journeys, that I actually do find a lot of joy in coaching there and have finally given in to people asking. I am--and this one's wild, like, I'm a person who has written things that I get paid to do.
adrienne: (13:25) Uh huh.
Aja: (13:26) That's crazy. So I guess, I'm a writer? I'm writing a book.
adrienne: (13:32) Oh yeah.
Nicole: (13:33) I was like, come on, don't bury the lead.
adrienne: (13:35) Do continue, keep going.
Aja: (13:37) Oh jeez. Yeah. So, I am authoring--, really an anthology, a collection of wisdom from Black people practicing kink, but especially BDSM and really exploring what Blackness and queerness bring to a practice that has been so whitewashed for so many years.
adrienne: (13:58) Mm.
Aja: (13:59) And so that is the project that I'm currently--, or one of the too many projects I'm currently in. But the one that I am decidedly most excited about. Two Brown Girls is growing and shifting. So, in terms of, like, our partnership, I feel really excited about the new projects that we are taking on, that people are trusting us with their conflicts. It has become an opportunity to really dig into emergent strategy.
Nicole: (14:25) Ooh!
Aja: (14:26) And really dig into some of the tenants of not just, like, transformative justice, but, like, how do we be in conflict with one another and see conflict not as good or bad, but just as what is.
adrienne: (14:39) Yeah.
Aja: (14:41) And think about how we could move through that and still come out on the other side whole and decoupling wholeness from still getting along in the same way that we used to before the conflict. Cause that may never happen. And so just really excited, like, I'm getting goosebumps just talking about it, because all of this feels so beautiful, and I just know the impact that we seek to have on organizations that are hiring Black people. <laugh>.
adrienne: (15:09) Yeah.
Nicole: (15:11) Oowee.
Aja: (15:11) You know? And feel like our commitment to that remains, even as we shift what it looks like. And so I'm excited about that.
adrienne: (15:17) I'm excited about both of you, and I'm excited--, I think Robert Thurman said that thing of like, you know you just have to come alive. Like, you have to find the things that make you come alive, because what we need is not more people doing rescue missions or whatever, but we just need more people who have come alive. Like that sets the beacon for each other. And I feel like I have gotten to watch both of you over this past decade plus now of knowing you both and watching you come alive. So, it's awesome for me.
Music Break: (15:52) “Jupiter’s Dance” plays. Lyrics: “I'm a window to your room and you'll never be home. I'm a keeper of the moon"
adrienne: (16:07) I think Nicole, you mentioned lineage a bit ago. I wanna bring you back there. Can you both share with us some of the most important parts of your political lineages that, like what kind of led you into this work in this way? What kind of guides you now?
Nicole: (16:25) Hmm. I think for me it's always been, and I think, you know, Black feminist thinkers and writers, right? So I think about some of the first work that politicized me was the work of, like, Audre Lorde and Gwendolyn Brooks and of, like, Nikki Giovanni and people who were writing, and I was, like, huh, they're not writing like--, they're not writing like the stuff I'm reading in school. Right. And so I think--
adrienne: (16:52) What, what felt distinct about what they--, how they were writing?
Nicole: (16:56) I think it was the situating themselves in their writing--
adrienne: (17:01) Ah.
Nicole: (17:01) --and their experiences. Right? And I felt like, at the time, I was reading so many poets and so many writers who were writing about the world almost as if they were not a part of it.
adrienne: (17:15) Mm-hmm.
Nicole: (17:16) Where you're writing--, you know, you're observing nature,
adrienne: (17:18) This objective outside voice.
Nicole: (17:21) Right.
adrienne: (17:21) Uh huh.
Nicole: (17:22) Where you're writing about nature, but you're not, you're not in it <laugh>. And so, I felt like their work, for me, was really about how can you situate yourself in what you're writing and your experiences and your family and your--, and the things that happen to you on a daily basis when you live inside of a body that is Black and, and identified as women, like, a woman, and, like, all of these things. And when you're queer and like, when you're living inside of a body that nobody understands, how do you need to write for yourself?
Aja: (17:55) Mm.
Nicole: (17:55) And I think the other part of it is, like, I tell, like--, my political journey has been rocky. Okay?
adrienne: (18:03) Yeah. Yeah.
Nicole: (18:04) You know, like, where you just, like, go in and out. But it was always through a lens of understanding that Blackness was something to be celebrated and centered.
adrienne: (18:13) Mm.
Nicole: (18:13) Even when the world was not doing that. And so, I don't know if I would identify as a Black nationalist, but I definitely come from a community that celebrated Blackness. Right? And I think that when you grow up--, me and Aja talk a lot about this, when you grow up culturally Black, you have to do a lot of translation about what it means to be politically Black.
adrienne: (18:36) Ah.
Nicole: (18:36) Right. And those things not always being the same. Yes.
adrienne: (18:40) Yeah, slow that down. Slow that down. That's--. So--, cause I feel like this is such a gem, actually. It's the kind of gem that is, like, oh, if more Black people understood this, we would literally be more free.
Nicole: (18:51) Mm-hmm.
adrienne: (18:52) Can you--?
Nicole: (18:53) Yeah. Like, so for me, I grew up in a household where we watched A Different World and we loved Black--, like Martin and Black culture and when there was something going on, we went to the Million Man March, and those were cultural markers.
adrienne: (19:08) Yeah.
Nicole: (19:09) Right? In which Blackness was both highlighted, understood, celebrated. But that didn't always translate to a Black politic. So, in terms of under--, having a analysis of class and of capitalism, right? Or understanding that you couldn't just ascribe to whiteness, right?
adrienne: (19:31) Mm-hmm.
Nicole: (19:32) Or just, kind of, proximate yourself to whiteness in order to be safe from white supremacy.
adrienne: (19:37) Mm-hmm.
Nicole: (19:38) Those were not things that I was taught in my household. And so developing a Black politic, right, where we’re understanding root causes, understanding policing, understanding displacement. Not through the lens of what kind of--, like, these are the things that happened to us, and that's why we need to be better, but understanding those as systems and structures that were happening, enforced, and continued to be codified, was a journey for me. You know, I always tell people, like, I showed up in some movement spaces and it was the first time in my life where I was like, oh, I'm not Black enough here.
adrienne: (20:12) Uh huh.
Nicole: (20:12) Right? But that was because there's a real distinctness from being raised in a culture that celebrates Black culture--
adrienne: (20:21) Yes.
Nicole: (20:21) --and having a politic of liberation and freedom, which feels very different, right?
adrienne: (20:26) Yeah.
Nicole: (20:27) And so, that journey for me has been a long one and one that I'm still on. And I think it makes me very sensitive to and careful about how we talk about the Black experience, right? And how we talk about needing to politicize Black people, because I know what it actually takes because I--
adrienne: (20:50) You've been on that journey.
Nicole: In that journey, right, around, like, how do you actually transform your thinking and understanding so that it's--, something else becomes more possible?,
Aja: (21:01): Yeah. I think also, I wanna enter into this backwards.
Nicole: (21:05) Ooh!
Aja: (21:05) So, like--, cause of, of course a lot of what you said resonates with me. We have this conversation all the time, and I think sometimes, and you and I talk about this a lot, when you don't feel at home in movement spaces or I don't feel at home in movement spaces--. And my political journey started quite early. My mother would tell you, She was organizing in second grade. I was, like, organizing an insurrection against my second grade teacher.
adrienne: (21:27) That's right.
Nicole: (21:28) As you should've.
Aja: (21:29) And understood Blackness and a Black politic. Like I--. My dad had me read--. He didn't read, but he was like, you gonna read this Malcolm X autobiography. And my auntie, who was a educator in Oakland Public Schools, reinforcing it, cause I thought I was gonna get out of it, but they had talked, so I was gonna read that Malcolm X over the summer. But not feeling at home in movement spaces, I think, has often been about people forgetting their own journeys--I'll say our own journeys, cause I'm sure that I'm not immune--, and forgetting, you know, like Malcolm X said, like, Don't forget, you know, at times there were things you didn't know, too.
adrienne: (22:02) That's right.
Aja: (22:02) It's a paraphrase of that quote. I try to ground myself in that--, certainly around gender liberation, which I'm newer to. It wasn't until I was a full grown adult, 25 years old, starting work at Bread for the City, and on our HR application <laugh>, it was like, what are your pronouns? And I said, now I--, I have been reading since I was three, I know what pronouns are <adrienne laughs>. And he or she. I was like-, I called the HR, I was like, what are you asking me?
adrienne: (22:28) Yeah. Help me understand this.
Aja: (22:28) Because I just had no concept.
adrienne: (22:30) Yes. Yep.
Aja: (22:30) I'm me, a person who would've considered themselves very like, oh no, I'm like, I'm beyond. I'm, I'm it. I've been on. I ask--, I came home asking my mom why she would marry a man, cause like, I had, you know, classmates who had two moms. And I was like, this feels much more--
adrienne: (22:48) So you could just marry two women together.
Aja: (22:51) Yeah. I was like, Jo, you married a man, what's up with--, like, what are you doing? Cause--
Nicole: (22:55) Best friend row.
Aja: (22:57) Cause I'm like, Noam got two moms, and it's lit over there. They always have snacks, like <adrienne laughs>, you know, like I--.
adrienne: (23:05) The lesbian tendency to have snacks.
Aja: (23:07) You know? I was like, what's going on? But yeah, so my political journey--. I--, my dad has passed, but a West Indian man who had a lot of childhood trauma himself, and was really determined to have his children have a different reality but always was very, like, political. He and my uncles, they, like, argued politics all the time. And he really tried to instill that same sort of like thirst for knowledge and knowing what's going on in my sister and I. And I took to it probably the most. My sister was like, you know, an Aquarius, totally unbothered. And my mom has always been, like, a child advocate, and so worked for--, was an educator and then worked for the Children's Defense Fund. Like, Marion Wright Edelman is, like, an auntie. And so, like, that's, you know, I was two years old growing up in CDF, and, like, that shaped me; that shaped my understanding of right and wrong. And that--, even though I had--, I used to think we were rich. It wasn't until I was an adult that I was like, oh no, this is--, y'all were just making it happen on nothing. Y'all were going without, so that we could have. And so I didn't have necessarily a class analysis in that way, but I did have a class analysis that said, there were some people who have and people who don't have, and that doesn't have to be. And that was my understanding from pretty young. Yeah. Actually Imma, Imma, Imma pause. Well, no, cause, like, the politics of sex probably also matters.
adrienne: (24:36) Yes, please.
Aja: (24:36) And my mother--
Nicole: (24:37) Yes.
Aja: (24:39) And it's so funny, because, like, now my mom--, she'll be 71 in June, which, I know; she's like, so fine, and it's--.
adrienne: (24:46) She is so fine.
Aja: (24:47) I always think about Omisade, and just being like, yes, getting older does not have to be this crone.
adrienne: (24:51) Just be like, that's what happens when you get older. We get more fine.
Aja: (24:54) Yeah, like, you just be getting finer. And she was raised by my grandmother, a woman who was a domestic worker, and was raised by women who were, We don't talk about our bodies, we don't talk about periods. She came on her period, her mother gave her, like, you know, it was like the Kotex thing that you had to, like, put--, it had to harness, and said, stay away from boys. She had a slow dance and thought that she got pregnant, cause she slow danced to a really long song, and the boy got erect, and so, poor baby thought she was preggo. You know?
adrienne: (25:26) It's like, he put his penis on me.
Nicole: (25:28) It's on me.
Aja: (25:29) That's right. That's right. And so, she did not want that for her children. And she had two girls and she was like, they will not grow up not knowing about their vagina. They will not grow up calling it a pocketbook or a purse or anything else. They will not grow up--
Nicole: (25:42) Handbag.
Aja: (25:44) Yeah. <adrienne laughs> Like, no, it's none of those things. It is a vagina. It can sometimes be a pussy or a snatch, but it's definitely a vagina, and I don't have to be afraid of it. So, like, and my body will do things, and I don't have to be afraid of it. I can always ask questions. And I didn't appreciate that when I was younger, because I thought, surely this is what everyone is learning. But as I came to find out, no. That's not what people were learning.
adrienne: (26:08) <sings> Nobody was. <laugh>
Aja: (26:09) Yeah. <laugh>.
Nicole: (26:10) It's like Alicia Keys. <sings> No one.
Aja: (26:12) Yeah. And so, now, as, like, a dominatrix and a person who likes talking about sex, it's funny cause my mom will be like, I just don't know where you got that from. And I'm like, sis. I had a popup book that was like, plants do it. Chickens do it. Dogs do it. People do it. I was like, I had a popup book about sex, my love. I--, this was--, no one--.
adrienne: (26:33) Guess who gave me that?
Aja: (26:33) You were the only one surprised. <laugh>.
adrienne: (26:34) Exactly.
Nicole: (26:35) It didn't come outta nowhere.
Aja: (26:36) But yeah, my politics around sex: I didn't have sex until I graduated high school because I said, well I could get pregnant, and I should at least have a diploma. Cause I was like, you know, I can't be a manager at McDonald's without a diploma. Which was true at the time. Or, like, it was my godmother who really talked to--, who was a OB/GYN who talked to me about masturbation. And was like, oh yeah, no, this is, this is a great strategy cause like, you can't get pregnant.
adrienne: (26:58) You can't get pregnant.
Aja: (26:59) You know? You can, like, do these things for yourself.
adrienne: (27:01) Mmm.
Aja: (27:01) Yeah, and just feel like--. And finding out later in life that the first Black woman attorney general is family. And she was actually forced to resign because she was promoting sex ed and was saying that children, yes, should learn about things like masturbation and should learn not just an abstinence only education. And the GOP forced her to resign. And it's so funny--not haha funny, but like, wow, what the fuck funny, that we're in this current political time of the criminalization of the bodies of women and other people with vulvas and vaginas and, like, just being like, wow, what a cycle. What a cycle.
adrienne: (27:40) Yeah. I mean, and it's, it's fascinating, as we get older and recognize, like, ignorance is very cyclical. Like it, it really is like, oh, I'm just gonna keep doing the same thing over and over again. It doesn't have to make sense. It's what's familiar, and when you feel that, you know, for what it is, right. That it's just, like, oh, that's a control mechanism. And you don't have to be controlled in that way. But some people are not ready for that. You know, <laugh>.
Aja: (28:07) Yeah.
adrienne: (28:07) But the rest of us have to be like, well I'm just gonna go practice some freedom over here. So, speaking of, you know, we move from lineage into, like, practice, right?
Aja and Nicole: (28:15) Mm-hmm.
adrienne: (28:15) What are we practicing? And the question I have for both of you, is what would you say you're practicing right now? And do you see emergent strategy showing up in that? Yeah.
Nicole: (28:30) Child. Whew. What am I not practicing? Is the question, but. <Aja and Nicole laugh>
adrienne: (28:33) That's right. It's all practice.
Aja: (28:36) <laugh>. Yes.
Nicole: (28:37) Go ahead, Aja. You go first. I don't know.
Aja: (28:38) Okay, cool. Yeah. So my word for this year is ease, and choosing the things that come with ease, which is not the same as easy.
adrienne: (28:48) Yeah.
Aja: (28:48) I'm discovering that, oh, it doesn't have to be something that's easy.
adrienne: (28:52) <laugh> Yeah.
Aja: (28:53) To feel, like, ease, you know? And it's a good discovery, because part of me was like, okay, my word for the year is ease. Well, that doesn't mean do nothing. But it does mean that I get to make choices where the thing that I'm doing that may not be easy still feels pleasurable. Right? Or the thing that I'm doing that doesn't feel easy--like making hard choices, having hard conversations, like a conversation with my supervisor that said, Oh, I cannot do this job like this anymore. And so I, and so I won't. And that's big.
adrienne: (29:27) That's huge.
Aja: (29:29)That's huge. You know, especially for a Taurus. Change is not my thing. And so having the universe push me deeper into my calling, which means necessarily a shift away from what has been a piece of my calling for so long. And I was talking to my mother about this yesterday, cause we had our, our gala, and she watched it, and she said she cried.
adrienne: (29:51) Mmm.
Aja: And I was like, yeah, you know, it came to me late, but that my work isn't being an organizer. My work isn't--, or like, gifting. It's like, I can do those things. My gifting is, like, shifting and making space for more. And that's whether it's in organizations--. I think that's what really calls me, and I think Nicole, too, to the work of Two Brown Girls. It's like, how do we create even more space. Because there are people who are gonna come through and who are gonna radically change the way that organizations and institutions and systems exist. And actually it's okay that I'm not the person, but I'm the person who helps make the space for those people.
Nicole: (30:36) Yep.
Aja: (30:36) And as soon as I realized that, that was ease, right?
Nicole: (30:41) Yeah.
Aja: (30:41) It, it, it wasn't easy. Not easy to say it, not easy to recognize it, not easy to live it, certainly. But the knowing and then moving in accordance with that knowing has brought me ease. Has meant not waking up and feeling anxious in the same way. Or, or when I feel anxious, saying to myself, you won't be doing this forever. You just need to build what you need to build, so that this thing that you've made space for can thrive.
adrienne: (31:12) Hallelujah.
Aja: (31:12) Yeah, and so, Emergent Strategy, and Pleasure Activism is all up and through that.
adrienne: (31:18) Yeah.
Aja: (31:19) And I lift up Pleasure Activism, because even though it is a different book from Emergent Strategy, it is in the lineage, and it is in the spirit and in the teaching of Emergent Strategy, that even as we talk about what it means to derive pleasure from living, with work being a part of life--not necessarily working to survive, but work, period.
adrienne: (31:43) Period.
Nicole: (31:43) Mm-hmm.
Aja: (31:43) Right, being a part of life, it becomes then how do I, how do we live that? How do I practice that? And so, I'm in that right now.
adrienne: (31:52) Ugh. It's so satisfying talking with y'all <laugh>. It's so sat--. I'm like, you get it! Nicole. Nicole, what are you practicing <laugh>?
Nicole: (32:01) I mean, I think the first thing for me--. So, my grandmother died, and then a aunt who was very close to me died four months later.
adrienne: (32:08) Oh, honey.
Nicole: (32:09) And I think that time taught me that the only ground that I have is the one that I cultivate inside of me.
adrienne: (32:21) Wait, say it again. <sings> Say it again.
Nicole: (32:25) The only ground that I have is the ground that I cultivate inside of me. And that can't be what Aja gives me. It can't be what my partner gives me. It can't be what my friends give me. It can't be what--. I have to be in a practice of deeply rooting myself.
adrienne: (32:41) Mmh.
Nicole: (32:42) And if I am not rooted, I can't practice anything else.
Aja: (32:46) Mm-hmm.
Nicole: (32:47) And so, for me, the practice has been, how do I let my grief be.
adrienne: (32:53) Yeah.
Nicole: (32:54) Like, ground, right? For something else.
Aja: (32:57) Mm.
Nicole: (32:58) And I think the other practice I've been is what is the--, then, how do I be a invitation? And I think I spent a lot of time--. As a organizer, as a consultant, as a facilitator, you spend a lot of time in strategy.
adrienne: (33:11) Yes.
Nicole: (33:11) Right? How do I say the thing or do the thing or ask the question that gets the outcome. And for me, the practice has been less about that and more of, can I be a invitation? When people are experiencing me, are they experiencing something that makes them curious enough to see something else as possible for themselves?
Aja: (33:33) Mm.
Nicole: (33:34) And so, invitation, which means making direct requests, right?
adrienne: (33:39) Mm-hmm.
Nicole: (33:39) But it also means creating the space for people to not always meet those direct requests. And that's a very hard practice for a Leo.
adrienne: (33:47) Oh.
Nicole: (33:47) With a Pisces moon, because I'm also a crybaby, too.
adrienne: (33:53) You're like, you're just not gonna do it.
Nicole: (33:59) Give me what I want! You're just not gonna do it?
adrienne: (33:59) I just a baby.
Nicole: (33:59) How I feel most of the time. I'm like, I'm just a baby. Gimme what I want!
adrienne: (34:03) I just a baby!
Nicole: (34:05) Why you not gimme what I want! <adrienne laughs> And it's been like, oh no.
adrienne: (34:08) Oh man.
Nicole: (34:09) I have to invite, and I have to be okay that, depending on what's happening with another human being or in an organization or with someone else, that they might not be ready to meet my invitation.
adrienne: (34:19) Hoo.
Nicole: (34:19) And sitting with that has--, is the practice that is <kissing noise>
adrienne: (34:25) Holy, holy.
Nicole: (34:26) You know, it is knocking me. Cause in every area of my life, I can get so fixated on what I wanna create and what I want the outcome to be that I don't actually join with another human being to say, what's more possible when we come together. Not just when you consent to my agenda.
adrienne: (34:46) Oof.
Nicole: (34:47) And it's hard.
adrienne: (34:48) It's hard. It's hard, but it is so different, right?
Nicole: (34:52) I wanna go fast, and I wanna do the thing, cause we don't have any time, and the conditions are killing us, and everything's bad. And I'm like, <squeak> Oh, I actually have to be more grounded and more generous. Okay. That sucks. <adrienne and Aja laugh>. And it's counter to what everybody is telling us that we need to do in this moment.
adrienne: (35:15) That's right.
Nicole: (35:16) Right? Generosity and going more deeply inside of ourselves to find the well that allows us to even engage is not what everyone is calling us to in this moment. So, emergent strategy has been the thing that I've held onto--
adrienne: (35:29) Yeah.
Nicole: (35:31) In this time because it's the only thing that gives me--, I feel like in some spaces, gives me the credibility to say there's some wisdom here.
adrienne: (35:38) Ah. Uh huh.
Nicole: (35:39) Right? There's some wisdom to how we don't have to meet the moment. And for those people who are doing that, more power to you, that's not my call in this season. Right, and discerning what's my call in this season and not what the call is that everyone else is responding to.
Aja: (35:56) Whoa! Come on, pastor.
Nicole: (35:57) It's very hard. Everyone else--. My call is not to be on the stage doing the things, pushing, doing--, like, that's not my call right now.
adrienne: (36:07) Yeah. Well and you know, Nicole, as you speak, it's so inspiring, but it's-it's so exciting too, cause I'm like, what would it feel like to be in a movement where people are all answering their call?
Nicole: (36:17) Shoo.
adrienne: (36:18) And being a movement worker was, like, answer your call, and then how does that serve liberation <laugh>?
Nicole: (36:25) Yes.
adrienne: (36:25) Right? Like, that's how I think of it is I'm like, I am meant to be writing fiction and musicals. Okay. <Nicole laughs>. How do I, how do I make that liberatory? Because--
Nicole: (36:34) Yes.
adrienne: (36:35) --that's what I'm supposed to be doing is, is singing songs and writing stories <laugh>. And I've done a lot of other things that I'm, like, that's, that was a part of my calling. This is a part of the calling, and there's a sense of completion. Right?
Nicole: (36:47) Yes. Yup.
adrienne: (36:47) It's like, I did that, and I figured out the things that I needed to figure out with that to be able to offer some completion to it. And what y'all are bringing into this is, is just--, I can feel the goosebumps, the energy of, of like, oh my gosh. Like, movements full of dominatrixes and poets and people answering the calling of, like, here's the piece I'm meant to bring to the table. Like, the table is the future.
Nicole: (37:15) Yeah.
adrienne: (37:15) Right? And we're not gonna be able to set it if we only have chairs. You know, like, if everyone is, like, the only way to do this is to be a chair. Chairs behave like this or whatever, <laugh> right. Anyway, so it's that biodiversity. But it's just, like, every time it comes around it's such a liberating thing to be, like, oh right. We--, the, the divergence of calling is actually the richness of humanity.
Nicole: (37:36) And I think that the other part of it that makes me so excited is that the, there is this sense for me--. When I sit down to write and I try to write political things, they don't come.
adrienne: (37:49) Yeah, I know. <laugh>
Nicole: (37:50) But when I write about love, when I write about what I'm seeing, and when I--, in my work, and when I write about, like, people trying to be human together, those words flow.
adrienne: (38:02) And they liberate.
Nicole: (38:04) And they liberate. Right, but when I try to write a political piece, I always get stuck on what hasn't been said. What has--, what am I saying that hasn't been said that we don't already know?
adrienne: (38:16) Well, and, and because part of what you're speaking to is, so much of the way we have organized ourselves to think of politics is telling others what to do.
Nicole: (38:25) Yup.
adrienne: (38:25) And giving--, it's either a demand or an instruction, but it's always a declarative statement.
Nicole: (38:29) Yup.
adrienne: (38:30) It's always like a you, and it's always an order, right? And there's something about saying, we're not communicating something that's actually galvanizing in the way we need to, because we actually need to be, like, listening and porous and dynamic--
Nicole: (38:43) Yes!
adrienne (38:43) --and collaborative and, like, we need to communicate in a way that's, like, you know, for years I called it manipulative. I was like, is organizing manipulation? Like, how do we, how do we actually hear? <laugh> And the only answer I keep coming to is, we have to just be human.
Nicole: (38:59) Yeah.
adrienne: (38:59) You know, we have to be like, oh I'm in it. I'm not outside of any of it. I'm in it.
Music Break: (39:17) “nightqueen” plays: "You know, they call me the night queen."
Aja: (39:22) I think the other part--. Two things, there's a piece of me, like, on the thread that we're in right now, or a second ago, that's, like, and if I'm being honest, I sometimes feel like a traitor.
adrienne: (39:34) Mm. Say more.
Aja: (39:35) You know, after having been an organizer for so long, after having done organizing in a very specific way. And in fact it's Yanique, <laugh> who was formerly at the if foundation is now up in Boston kicking ass. And Yanique Redwood, who I would say, and I've said it to lots of people, if you ask almost anyone, god, who's met me at this point, it's like, Oh yeah, Aja's freedom dream is sitting by the water talking to people about sex.
adrienne: (40:02) Mm-hmm.
Aja: (40:02) You know, cause I'm like, yeah, as soon as everything's fine, as soon--, soon as capitalism falls, and everyone has housing and food and water, and the earth isn't about to explode, then I could talk about this sex thing. And Yanique called me on that and was like, but you said that this is part and parcel of liberation, but you're withholding it until liberation, but you're saying liberation can't come without it. Like, that doesn't make sense.
adrienne: (40:28) Mm-hmm
Aja: (40:29) Help me help you make sense. And that call out was actually what I needed. Yeah, Yanique really changed my life. So that's one. And then, the second is, I think there on this sort of new thread that's about the, like, diversity of gifts and the diversity of calling, is that it also has a lot to do with how prescriptive movements are about what, what counts as politicization, and what I should have said in the question around being politicized--, because it is like my mama and daddy, and it is all those things, and, if I'm being a hundred percent honest, and this is still, again, thanks to my mother cultivating this in me--, seeing it and not being scared of it, but seeing it as a wonderful thing, science fiction, science fantasy politicized me.
adrienne: (41:13) <sings> [WORD UNCLEAR]
Nicole: (41:13) EY!
Aja: (41:13) A Wrinkle in Time--yeah. A Wrinkle in Time was read to me in first grade by Miss Backtel [PHONETIC] at East [CROSS TALK] where I went to School, and she changed my life because other worlds, and the idea of a tesseract--. Ooh, I'm getting goosebumps thinking about it, cause it's true. The idea that the power to create new worlds and new possibilities was inside of us. And these are, this is a child also, right?
adrienne: (41:40) Yes. Yes.
Aja: (41:41) So me, a child, seeing another--. And so, that, The Chronicles of Narnia--
adrienne: (41:45) Honey, let's go up in that wardrobe. Okay?
Aja: (41:47) For real. The Lion, the Witch--. Come on, right. The--. Star Trek.
adrienne: (41:52) Yes.
Aja: (41:52) Like, my dad used to watch Star Trek and, like, the old, old old Planet of the Apes, and this idea that, like, animals could be sentient beings and--. You know what I mean, like, all of these. Cause I'm, like, yeah, it's made up, kinda, but if someone can think it, it could exist. That's--
adrienne: (42:06) Yes. That's always how I am.
Aja: (42:08) --what I know about the world. Right?
Nicole: (42:09) I know, that's why you're scared when I watch Upload. I'm like--
Aja: (42:11) Uh, yeah. And that's why, when I watch Criminal Minds, I'm always like, oh yeah, I'm not scared because I already have envisioned all of these terrible things.
adrienne: (42:19) Yes. Well--
Aja: (42:19) But also--
adrienne: (42:19) --and humans. Yeah. We think bad things. We think good things. We think all the things.
Aja: (42:23) Yeah. Humans gonna human, right. And whiteness gonna white. But that's a different podcast.
adrienne: (42:27) Mm-hmm.
Aja: (42:27) But, you know, my mother giving me The Living Blood and introducing me to Tananarive Due, my mother giving me Kindred and introducing me to Octavia Butler, my mother introducing me to also, like, the Eric Jerome Dickeys, the Omar Tyrees, the--
Nicole: (42:46) Oh, Fly Girl? I remember reading Fly Girl being like--
Aja: (42:49) Truly! Sister Souljah, Zane, right? Reading erotic fiction--and now, my mama didn't gimme Zane, but I found Zane at the library.
Nicole: (42:58) My grandmother gave me Zane, and I was like, wha--. She--. Yeah.
Aja: (43:03) She gave you Zane?
Nicole: (43:04) G gave me Zane. So I had just finished The Coldest Winter Ever and Fly Girl and Be More Careful, and my--, and True To The Game. Those are, like, my four <adrienne laughs>.
Aja: (43:16) Yes, yes, yes, yes!
Nicole: (43:16) And I was like, I want something else to read. And she was like, I'mma give you a book, but you can't--, don't you tell your mama. And I was like, Okay. And she gave me Zane, and I was like--.
Aja: (43:26) Oh my gosh.
Nicole: (43:28) I read it, like, under the covers--
Aja: (43:29) Yes.
Nicole: (43:29) --in the middle of the night
adrienne: (43:31) Having an erotic awakening? Yes.
Nicole: (43:33) Yes. <laugh>.
Aja: (43:34) That was the first fiction I'm masturbated to
Nicole: (43:36) Something's happening here, and I like it.
Aja: (43:41) I was like, okay, Zane. I was like, Uh, please give me more. But yeah, there's all of that.
adrienne: (43:47) No, I know. I remember being, like, I didn't even know that part could get wet. Hmm.
Nicole: (43:51) Well, you know, she lives in Maryland.
adrienne: (43:53) Well, y'all need to call her up.
Nicole: (43:54) I'm like, she needs to be on the podcast
adrienne: (43:56) <laugh> Okay. Yeah.
Aja: (43:57) But yeah, so like, all of those things in terms of, like--, those are political lineages, too.
adrienne: (44:03) That's right.
Aja: (44:03) Yeah.
adrienne: (44:03) Oh, that's so good. I mean this, this is actually part of why we keep asking this question, because it feels like there's an assumed appropriate lineage or correct lineage of politicization. But then, everyone we ask, they're like, yeah, I read the people who wrote, you know, I read the people who thought about things, but also, my family and these friends and this political condition, all this other stuff, this art. There's so much art inside of people's lineages. There's so much music, there's so much--. Yeah.
Aja: (44:36) And, like, I didn't. So, like, I just wanna say that, cause I think also, people make assumptions about me because of how I think and what I know, and, and--. I did not read Audre Lorde or bell hooks--, or I wasn't introduced to--. I read Nikki Giovanni, but I wasn't introduced to Black feminism as a pedagogy or even as, like, a theology until I was full grown adult. Okay, I ain't talking 18, 19. I mean, I was, like, 26, 27. It was BOLD that introduced me to bell hooks. Not that I didn't know who bell hooks was.
adrienne: (45:10) Yeah.
Aja: (45:10) But I was not interested in reading it, because until--. I loved autobiographies, but if it's not an autobiography, nonfiction doesn't really do it for me. It isn't--, it doesn't help me learn. Right? What I love is having conversations, and where I thrive is having conversations with people who have read it--
adrienne: (45:29) Yes. That's--
Aja: (45:29) Because that is the thing that's gonna help me.
adrienne: (45:32) That's also me and Jomo from BOLD--Black Organizing for Leadership and Dignity--shout out. Me and Jomo--. Like, I literally would be, like, can you just read it and tell me what they--
Aja: (45:40) <laughing> Okay.
adrienne: (45:42) I started to try to read it, and it was so many nonfiction words, and you know, I'm like, I'm a smart person, but you know, I'm like, I don't like reading text where it feels like they wrote too obscure.
Aja: (45:50) Mm-hmm. Yes!
adrienne: (45:51) Anyway, that's a whole nother conversation, too.
Nicole: (45:54) But you know what--.
adrienne: (45:54) I wanna ask y'all--. Yeah, Nicole, you say what you were gonna say.
Nicole: (45:57) I was gonna say, it's so funny because, DC had this program called DC WritersCorps, and this program called this--. Two folks--, two folks, Lisa Pegram and Kenny Carroll used to come into schools and do, like, writing workshops. And then there was one in my high school where a woman named Monica Hand, who was connected to them, used to come in and do writing and just, like, a mentor of mine. She'd be like, Come with me to the Folger Shakespeare Library. We're gonna go hear Elizabeth Alexander do poetry.
adrienne: (46:27) Ooh. Ooh.
Nicole: (46:27) And I'd be like, okay. Or like, we're gonna go and hear Cave Canem poets just do a reading.
adrienne: (46:35) Yeah.
Nicole: (46:35) And I would just be, like--
adrienne: (46:36) Yes.
Nicole: (46:37) Who are these people, who are Black, who are writing like this? And then, they would just, like, be, like, Oh, you need to read this. Oh, you need to read this. Oh, you need to read this. But the performance aspect of poetry, right? Slam poetry, like, was my entry point into reading all the other stuff. Right? So it's, like, it's always, like--. I think we always have to account for the fact that, like, I've read those things because somebody else, who I had a relationship with, was like, go do this thing. And I trusted their voice.
Music Break: (47:09) “KiN” instrumental plays.
adrienne: (47:30) I love that, too, because I--, I feel like we don't account for the, the randomness, truly the randomness by which we end up where we are. Like, I feel like so often, especially in political or politicized spaces, I feel like I see people show up as if, like, I was especially selected to be political, and it was from day one, and there was never been a moment of mistake, and I've got it all on lock or whatever. And it's just this tender thing to me where I'm just like, huh, that's so weird. Like I, you know, followed a crush into a meeting, and being like, okay, you're fine. I guess we're going over here now. Like, I have stayed inside of sessions because it felt--, or inside of movement spaces sometimes, because I felt, like, a belonging or community in that space, even if I was like, I'm not sure I agree with where we're trying to go. <Nicole laughs> And, you know, I think so much of ending up as a facilitator was actually, like, I wanna be able to hold room for conversations to happen that include the quiet people on the edge who are, like, not quite sure <laugh>, you know. That's also a part of things, right? So, a question I have for y'all: what feels like it's emerging for you? Like, what are you experimenting with? What have your like--, I'm, I don't quite have this, I'm trying, it's, I'm scared. Aja, you spoke a little bit to it earlier with the anthology, but what's emerging for, for both of y'all right now?
Nicole: (48:56) You know, one of my dreams is like, what--, and I know that y'all, emergent strategy knows this, is like, what does emergent, emergent strategy coaching look like?
Aja: (49:04) Yep.
Nicole: (49:04) And so, I have been playing around of, like, like, what does that look like for me? Right? And so, some of it has been around, like, what's the intersection of emergent strategy and coaching, but also, how do you embed a racial analysis in that? So, I've been doing some work around, like, racial healing and wellness--
Aja: (49:26) Yes.
Nicole: (49:26) --and, like, how do you have an embodied experience? So, we did a pilot cohort of 16 white women, who worked with us over 10 months around, like, what does it actually mean to get into your body as a way to be more deeply accountable to creating the world that you wanna see? And that's not around your guilt, it's not about your shame. It's not around, like, how you--, how performative your politics are, but how do you get to know yourself in order to actually show up in real ways as a white woman navigating the world.
adrienne: (50:03) Yeah. All it is. Yeah.
Nicole: (50:05) All that that is, and it has been really powerful work and has been, I think, helped me to be more in contact with, like, Oh, all of us are having an experience right now. And some of the mythology--. One of the things I always tell people is white supremacy robs us of an imagination, and so we don't have an imagination that white people, or that--, can be a different way.
adrienne: (50:30) Yeah.
Aja: (50:31) Mm-hmm.
Nicole: (50:31) So we almost, like, transfix, Okay, you're this.
adrienne: (50:35) Mm-hmm
Nicole: (50:36) And just like, I want liberation to be possible for Black people, I do want people to have safe containers to practice with what it means to try on a different way of being that doesn't overextend and doesn't cause them to, to shame spiral. So, that's been a really emerging part of my work.
adrienne: (50:55) Thrilling.
Nicole: (50:55) So, very thrilling. And then, I think the other part of is, like, what does emerging strategy look like inside of a organizational context? Like, what does an organization in which everyone is practitioners grounded in emergent strategy look like, and what can we create together? And that has been, I would say, thrilling and heartbreaking.
adrienne: (51:18) Yeah.
Nicole: (51:19) Because, what I realize is that, especially for, like, teams of Black people and Latinx people and other folks who are trying to figure out how to be together; we default to some of the, the tools that we have and one of those tools is, like, an absolution, right? Like, I just won't participate or like, oh, I'll just wait for someone else to make the decision, or I won't put forth my best thinking or my best learning. And I think, thinking about what are organizational conditions that create ripeness for emergent strategy--
adrienne: (51:54) Mmm.
Nicole: (51:54) --has been thrilling and also makes me realize how much I want so many more people to have these tools.
adrienne: (52:02) Yeah.
Nicole: (52:03) So that they can begin to think about what's their own ground. Cause, you know, as an executive director, sometimes you like--, I'm very clear that I show up in a room and I have a particular ground, and I want other people to have their ground and be in their dignity, too, and not thrown off by my position. And that's, that's work we're experimenting with.
adrienne: (52:24) I love that. I love that, love that, love that. Yes.
Aja: (52:28) So I'd say, what's emerging for me is definitely this anthology. I feel scared, terrified by it, which, you know, must mean there's something there, cause I also feel committed to it, deeply. So, that's one thing that's emerging. I'd say the other thing that's emerging that I'm excited about is work with Omisade, who I think some of your listeners have been introduced to already. But if not, Omisade Burney-Scott is the creator of The Black Girl's Guide to Surviving Menopause. And so, I, as a sex educator, and a person who just talks about sex <laugh>, which I, you know, I feel like--
adrienne: (53:07) Both and.
Aja: (53:07) --that still counts, right? The number of Black women in particular who have been reaching out to me and in conversations around menopause and--. Not just menopause and sex, but menopause and pleasure. And so, I've been doing these things called pleasure planning with, like, just, like, people. And I thought to myself, like, by the time the, you know, fifth person asked me the same question, I was like, okay, so people <adrienne laughs> who are experiencing--. Black women, especially, who are experiencing menopause, seem to be feeling some isolation, some hesitation.
adrienne: (53:44) Mm-hmm.
Aja: (53:44) Some idea that there's like a way or one way that sex or pleasure is supposed to be--
adrienne: (53:49) Yep.
Aja: (53:49) --once you are premenopausal or going through menopause. And so, I called Omisade from my godparents' driveway and I was like, look, I think that there could be something here, because I just got, like, my fifth DM.
adrienne: (54:02) Yes.
Aja: (54:03) And she is excited about it. And so, we're going to put together a something probably the--, coming this fall, for Black people who are experiencing menopause or who are premenopausal or, like, around the age where, like, menopause is a thing you're thinking about to talk, yes, about menopause, but to get even more specific and talk about menopause and pleasure. And so I feel really, really, again, daunted, cause I think <adrienne laughs> Omisade is, like, all the things and I just feel daunted by that task, and I always feel daunted when people who I think are incredible think that I have a good idea. Cause I'm like, oh god, what if it's actually a shit idea?
Nicole: (54:46) What if it's not?
Aja: (54:48) Yeah. And, and Nicole will say, yeah and what if it's not? And what happens if you don't do it. It's like, alright, alright. Yeah. So, feeling excited about that and that, and I have a website coming, so that people can finally, like, book in a way that makes sense. And yeah, I just feel good about those things. Oh, and the other thing that I am birthing is at my job. Hopefully, maybe. I still have to talk to our medical clinic director, but talking about a pleasure-based sex education for folks who don't make money. Cause right now, when you're looking at free sex education, it doesn't really talk about pleasure. All those things, those are classes you have to pay for if you want someone to talk to you about--
adrienne: (55:29) Anything.
Aja: (55:30) --sucking dick. If you want someone to call you, you want someone to, you know--. Toys are expensive. Like, all those things. So I have, like, you know, 300 vibrators in my laundry room just waiting for--
adrienne: (55:40) Oh, I love that.
Aja: (55:41) I know.
Nicole: (55:42) I love that.
Aja: (55:42) I have a box of lube coming from another friend. Yeah. <laugh>
adrienne: (55:47) So, I'm really--. I wanna put a, cast a blessing on everything that's emerging for both of you, cause I want it all to happen, and it'll be good for the world. Last thing, what's the most resonant question for you, right now? What is the question that's up for you that you keep asking yourself or keep asking others?
Aja: (56:06) For me, right now, it's the, and what happens if you don't?
adrienne: (56:10) Awesome.
Aja : (56:11) It really is.
adrienne : (56:12) That's great. What about for you, Nicole?
Nicole: (56:15) I think it's a question of what, what's on the other side of your joy?
adrienne: (56:20) Hmm. Ahh! Okay, so, thank you Nicole and Aja, for sharing your miraculous and precious time with me, with us, with our listeners. Listeners, thank you so much for listening into this conversation. We love you all, and we're so grateful you're experimenting, and listening, and thinking about these things we know you're also practicing. This podcast is produced by Mari Orozco. Production coordination is by Aliana Coello. Transcription is by Hannah Pepper-Cunningham. Music for the Emergent Strategy Podcast is provided by Hurray For the Riff Raff, from their album Life on Earth. To support the ongoing work of ESII, make a donation@alliedmedia.org/esii.