S2E25: The Power of Play with Chelsea Cleveland

Season 2, Episode 25: Emergent Strategy Podcast

“The Power of Play with Chelsea Cleveland”

*Please note: these transcripts are intended to increase the accessibility of the podcast; there should be no reprinting or distribution without permission.

Chelsea: (00:00:00) Imagination, creativity, play is like kind of kicked out of you, and it's not seen as something that you should be doing as an adult, unless you're in that field of, like, writing books or something like that. Or you're a teacher for, like, little kids. But I think everyone needs a degree of playfulness and imagination, because how are we going to even create a new world if we can't even imagine it?

Music Break: Theme Music (“Wolves” - Hurray for the Riff Raff)

Mia: (00:00:42) Hello, and welcome to the Emergent Strategy Podcast, hosted by the Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute. We are a collective of facilitators, mediators, trainers, and curious human beings interested in how we get in right relationship with change. Today, I'll be guiding our interview. My name's Mia. I am the Program Maven and Healer-in-Residence here at ESII. And actually, I have a lucky special treat, y'all, because I'm joined by Yanitza. Yanitza, why don't you say hey real quick to the people.

Yanitza: (00:01:24) Hey y'all. So excited to be here.

Mia: (00:01:27) Yes. So we, at Emergent Strategy, are not only working to get in right relationship with each other, but we use emergent strategy as a way to generate and reshape complex systems and patterns with relatively simple interactions. And someone who has been an incredible teacher of ours is Chelsea Cleveland, who is our special guest today. Chelsea Cleveland is a multiracial Black queer feminist, non-binary trans person from New London, Connecticut. They have done facilitation work in Connecticut and across the country. Chelsea also helped co-found Hearing Youth Voices, an intergenerational youth-focused Black community organizing group where they wore many hats such as organizer, facilitator, and program director. They're currently doing freelance facilitation work and are also a champion nap taker. Welcome, Chelsea.

Chelsea: (00:02:26) Hello. Glad to be here.

Mia: (00:02:28) We're so happy you're here. So, we wanna first just start off by saying and seeing, how are you today? How are you right now?

Chelsea: (00:02:38) Yeah, today I woke up a little frenzied and frazzled and I'm working on, like, actually feeling through my feelings. So, I felt them, and they're still a little bit in there, but since I'm more excited about this, that's kind of overtaking that. And then I'm also just a little mindful of the water I'm drinking and, like, how my day is gonna go because I also got my booster shot today, and I'm just, like, hoping that I don't feel bad, cause I'm pretty busy this week, but if it takes me out, it takes me out, and that's meant to be <laugh>, but that's how I am today.

Mia: (00:03:16) Well, we're gonna send a little special energy your way so that you can do what you need to do. What about you Yanitza? How are you feeling?

Yanitza: (00:03:24) I'm feeling good. I'm glad to be in this conversation. I've had a wonky couple of days, and in the history of us working together, I, historically on Tuesdays, in my Tumblr, when I did that, I would be like, It's Tuesday again. No problem. And that's very much how I feel today. It's Tuesday again, and it's definitely not a problem, cause I'm so excited to be in this conversation with you all.

Mia: (00:03:50) Fresh. I'm not even gonna reveal how social media illiterate I am cause I'm, like, what's your Tumblr? Whatcha talking about? I don't know what you're talking about. <laugh> That's great though. I'm happy it's another Tuesday, and it's no problem. Y'all, it's possible to be a luddite and still be under 50.

Yanitza: (00:04:12) It's so interesting, cause my tech savviness is very small. Like, I can do some things as a millennial, but, like, where I should be is not where I'm at, you know? But Chelsea is definitely my go-to person when it comes to, like, how do I do this tech thing?
Mia: (00:04:30) Okay. I feel like, you know, there's lots of reasons why we have you on Chelsea, and some things we wanna share about emergent strategy, and we'll get there in a second. But one of my favorite memories of you--. Well, gosh, and I actually--, I mean, I'm like, this is fascinating. One because my memory is not great, so that I actually have a bank of memories that are favorite is feeling really juicy and exciting to me. <laugh> It means I enjoy observing you. I find a lot of inspiration and light inside of watching you be with others. And one way that I was really excited was, like, you made some gifts for a friend of yours. They were, like, posters because I think you had an ongoing debate about cookies <laugh> and I think you may have been low key shading, like, maybe low key harassing them with these posters <laugh>, but they were really technically very beautiful. <laugh>.

Chelsea: (00:05:23) Thank you. Yes. I have an ongoing feud with my friend mo-- maurice bp-weeks, and it is about thin mints specifically, and I love thin mints, and he hates them. And we got into a little tiff about it when we were at a training, and then we polled everyone that was there. So, about 115 people. And we tallied up, like, who liked thin mints and who didn't. And thin mints obviously won. I mean, it is a fan favorite for a reason, but the fight is still there, the arguments are still there. And I definitely created some beautiful huge posters. They were very large, and when he was not home--, he doesn't even live in the same state as me, but I was at his house, and he was not there ,and I put them all over his house, and then I went back to Connecticut. So that was a nice surprise for him when he came back.

Mia: (00:06:21) I mean talk about dedication to a point. That's amazing. And also what I really enjoyed deeply, though, is that your dedication also to the play and your friendship.

Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Mia: And that really struck me. And so, I do actually wanna get back to that conversation around playing a bit, cause I do find it kind of a fundamental quality that I'm curious about your engagement with.

Chelsea: Mm-hmm.

Mia: But let's first just holler with you about folks--, some be like, I read Emergent Strategy, I be in practice, you know, I be doing my thing, but why y'all have me on here? So <laugh> so, there are a few elements and principles that we believe you embody in really important ways, and in particular resilience in creating more possibilities. And so, we wanna know if you accept the premise that, based on your practice, your rigor, your application of resilience and creating more possibilities that you would accept the title of being an emergent strategist.

Chelsea: (00:07:26) Well, I'm interested in what you see that came to those, too. So, I would like to hear more about that. But I do think that I am an emergent strategist, and I think, even, I've talked about this with tons of people, including adrienne, that before I read the book, I think I was already doing a lot of these things, and I think a lot of people were, but felt like they weren't accepted. It's not the accepted way to do organizing or facilitation or moving throughout the world. So when I read the book, and even, like, her blog posts, and she made, like, this zine of it even before the book came out. So, I was, like, really deep in it before the book even came out. I felt like, this is me and this is what I do, and, like, it added to my practice. But I was already doing a lot of those things. And I--, I think the way I view the world and the way I've always kind of shown up in the world is, like, creating more possibilities. So, I definitely agree with that, like, pretty automatically. I think resilience--. Sometimes I have feelings about the word, cause it can mean various things and I--, from different people and how, like, society views resilience. But I think in terms of emergent strategy and how I've learned about resiliency through other places like BOLD, I would accept that. I would accept both of those.

Mia: (00:08:47) And of course we are not limiting you to two. You can be whatever, you can apply whatever you can do. <laugh> You know, how you see fit, I think makes a lot of sense. I-I think it's probably at this intersection of how you engage and apply disability justice work to the frame of emergent strategy that this probably is coming up for the team and-- <laugh>. So on that, that's on the more serious note, and I'm gonna ask you a question about that in a second. But again, because I also so deeply enjoy and believe that play and creativity is such a deep part of how we are resilient, which is distinct from the conditions that make injustice possible. I'm thinking about, again, your ongoing debate about eating the rich, and to me <laugh>, to me, this is, you know, we share or not, but I think there is a way in which your creativity, kind of allows for us to imagine ourselves in other worlds. It's connected to the creating more possibilities, and it is a kind of--not just creating more possibilities, but, like, finding a way to move through what we know are hard moments, in order to get to those new things.

Chelsea: (00:10:01) Yeah, I think that play is an interesting thing that's kind of shown up in my late twenties, early thirties that wasn't necessarily always a part of my life. As a child, I didn't really play. <laugh> I mostly spent a lot of time just reading books, which, like, creates these new worlds in my head. But I wouldn't interact with other people in that way. I would be interested actually to hear from Yani about--, one of the memories I know that you enjoy is, like, when we did, like, skits at Hearing Youth Voices. I don't know if you remember, but <laugh>, but if you do, I'd like to hear, like, your experience kind of seeing me as someone who, like, was getting a little goofy, cause I don't think at the time a lot of people, like, saw that in me.

Yanitza: (00:10:53) Yeah, thank you for bringing that, because that is truly one of my favorite Chelsea memories, and it happened earlier in our trajectory of working and facilitating together. And it's interesting to hear you, cause I think at that point you were kind of in your earlier or mid twenties, and up until that point, I had known you as this very serious, dedicated, super smart person who I was working with. But then, when we did the skits, it was like the Gemini came out. I could see this whole other side of Chelsea, and they were acting, and they were just going around and pretending with all of us young people, and they would be, like, shh. And I'm like, I could never get that image of Chelsea out of my brain. So, of course I remember because it was magical. It was truly magical to see you transform in that way and bring so much joy to, like, the space, all of us, like, we were in what we called a dungeon at the time, which was the basement of a church, and it wasn't the most vibrant space, but through playing and skit-creating and make belief, it became so much fun, and it--, we forgot it was a dungeon. There were times where that place was, like, a store, or other times where we were--, it was a neighborhood <laugh> because you just tasked us with using our imaginations in that way.

Chelsea: (00:12:17) Yeah. And I think, like, I had been ashamed a lot as a younger person of, like, showing my more goofy side and my, like, more playful, weird personality. And I have had to, like, work through that shame, and I'm still working through it. So it takes a lot for me usually to show that. And I think it's coming out a lot more and more. And I think, like, in terms of work, like, doing organizing work and facilitation work, everything is always so serious. And it's like, I don't wanna live in a world where, like, everything is serious all the time. And I think a lot of people, initially upon meeting me, think I'm, like, a super serious person, when, like, in my brain, like, the weirdest imagery is happening at all times, and, like, I can spin a tail so fast, and I can make believe as quickly as I want to be. And I think, like, part of what's missing in spaces I've been in where I'm doing organizing work or facilitation work is we're trying to create a whole new world and no one's really tapped into their imagination. (00:13:21) And as we've gotten older, because of things like capitalism, and especially if you're Black, like, imagination, creativity, play is, like, kind of kicked out of you, and it's not seen as something that you should be doing as an adult unless you're in that field of, like, writing books or something like that. Or you're a teacher for, like, little kids. But I think everyone needs a degree of playfulness and imagination, because how are we going to even create a new world if we can't even imagine it? And so, one way that I like to engage in the work that I do is getting people silly, because it lets the shields off a little bit. I certainly know that my shield will come off when I get to be playful, and you get to do high stakes work, like, flex that muscle of maybe debating, like, the thin mints or, like, should we eat the rich, and, like, what should be on the menu. (00:14:19): Like, those things aren't necessarily serious, but they come with this, like, level of rigor I would say, that you can use to practice those skills for when things are much higher, stakes, like, do or die. And we don't get a lot of practice doing the work unless we're, like, actually doing it and we feel all this pressure. So, I really, in those moments when there's not a lot of pressure can--, how can we just be playful with each other? And, like, bringing that back to adult relationships as well. Not everything has to be super serious all the time. It is fun to just have fun.

Yanitza: (00:14:57) Chelsea is one of the best, like, on the spot storytellers ever. Like, some of my favorite games to play with them while traveling and things like that is, like, they made up this brilliant story about a mouse one time, with a daddy long legs, or once we were just staring out the window, and there was a seagull, and, like, the seagull had a name, and they were there with a purpose. And just that imagination, right, like, I can think of you being one of the first people to get me to think about the future, and in playful ways, but also with some underlinement of what do we really wanna visualize? What do we wanna work towards? And realizing that, oh, like, imagination is a muscle that we're not flexing or getting the opportunity to build up often enough, like you were saying,

Mia: (00:15:46) I love this. I love the spontaneity, the creativity, the imagination to move us towards something new, and--, or to at least reimagine circumstances as a pathway and a portal for change, right? As a pathway and a portal for unsticking ourselves. I-I feel a deep high regard for the role of the storyteller in our culture over time to help also make sense while doing that, like, space of spending a tale and creating something new. So, I love that this is a role that you take on in a serious way and with the levity that it deserves.

(00:16:32) Music Break - “Jupiter’s Dance” plays. Lyrics: “I'm a window to your room, and you'll never be home. I'm the keeper of the moon, and you'll never be home.”

Mia: Let's just stay for a second on, you know, the role then that has with some of the work that you've done, particularly I imagine this is a important skill set and an important muscle to be using in relationship to young folks. Cause if they're bored, and it's not popping, it's not happening. And, you know, yeah, that's just that, like, you lost them. <laugh> They're not coming back. So, I'd love to ask y'all about, you know, how you've seen emergent strategy take hold with young people. Why do you think that is or isn't? And again, the ways in which you have worked to engage young folks with a level of deep respect and honor for their position and their capacity to be change agents in our society?

Chelsea: (00:17:32) I think that--. What do I think? So yes, I've been working with young people in some capacity for, like, 12, 13 years, starting when I was a young person myself. And you're right, like, it, it can be so hard to lose their attention, because I think young people are super honest in, like, what they need and if you're not providing it, like, you can kick rocks. And I think that with emergent strategy, there's way more room for experimentation in what we do. And I think that allows a certain amount of freedom that maybe other ways of doing youth organizing work or just organizing work in general might have some restrictions of how you do things, right. Like, you have to do this X amount of one-on-ones in a week, and if you don't do that, like, there are consequences. And it feels very punitive, it feels very small, it feels like you're in a box. (00:18:35) It doesn't feel expansive. So I think with bringing in more emergent strategy concepts, having them read the book or read certain passages from the book to talk about the different principles, especially in my later years of working with young people, especially at Hearing Youth Voices, we would use things from the book specifically to make agendas with each other. Like, you know, in the book it talks about how to create an agenda, like, with all the people that are gonna be there. So, how can we, like, collaborate on this agenda in a way that feels good for all of us? And that has been so important for me to watch and for me to be a part of with other young people, because I just, like, people light up and kind of take more initiative in doing some of this really difficult work that, like, when you are faced with all the oppression that they're facing as young people, as Black people, as other marginalized identities, that that's a lot to take in, and, like, where is this space to actually feel all those things and incorporate them into the work. And I think that emergent strategy has been a place where people get to explore all those things with all of us. So, that's kind of broad scope how I see it, but Yani, do you have any thoughts?

Yanitza: (00:19:58) Yeah, I think immediately my thought was young people, I have found, are some of the most, like, emergent beings, right, like, similar to what you were saying, Chelsea, at the beginning, even before the book came out into the world, the book felt like it gave us language for some of the practices we were already engaging in. And I feel that that's so true for young people. So, having the experience of--, with the young people that we worked with, and getting to see them embody and practice just the different principles, and how it shows up in the work that we were doing, it was truly wonderful to watch that transformation happen in our work. And sometimes, you know, it was a little bit slower than others, or, like, watching the young people being able to embrace it with much more capacity than the adults, right. Like, I think the adults had a harder time with those shifts, but the young people were just, like, down with it.

Chelsea: (00:20:51) One example that really sticks out to me, and I think it's small, but it's huge, is, like, I was talking with a circle of some of our youth members. I don't know exactly what we were doing, but we needed to, like, feel like we were in it together. Like, we needed to feel like we are not just individual people about to do this action or this escalation, like, something hard was about to happen. And so, we talked about how to move together as, like, a murmuration, how to move together as birds, and how there isn't one specific leader. It's gonna be all of us looking to our left, to our right, to our front, to our back; and we all have to be there together and we're gonna move to the same place with one another. And then, we did some, like, body movement exercise where we were, like, in sync with one another, and so we would feel that in our actual bodies, like, how it is to, to be in sync with one another. (00:21:45) And so, it was like, the talking through, it was the feeling, and then afterwards, like, well what was that like? And like, how do we think we can move forward in this way, as this, like, flock of birds going towards this really difficult thing we're about to do? And I think that for my memory, like, people really enjoyed that practice of even, like, moving in, like, physically moving their bodies in sync with one another, and taking that time to actually feel. And that's another important thing that I think that emergent strategy offers is, like, feeling and, like, really feeling what's going on in yourself, which is very difficult to do, can be very triggering to do. It can be sometimes almost impossible to do for some people, but, like, what are the small ways we can get in touch with our bodies, and what are the small ways we can get in touch with our community with one another, and practice with one another? And so that imagery that, you know, adrienne offers, of the, the murmuration, the birds was really something that stuck with that circle of young people as we moved into our escalation tactic. That was really scary. And then I think it made it so much more powerful for all of us. I-I know for me it was to do that with each other.

Mia: (00:23:01) I love that, I--, and I feel how important it is to have those embodied experiences of connection, of feeling together, and of feeling a like, you know, that oneness in many ways, before doing something that is so high stakes. And in particular, I think about, like, I've done some of that form of exercise with different groups of people, and something I'm always really struck by is if we're doing the same action, not all bodies can do the same thing in the same way. And so, what process it takes for people to move from trying to do it the exact way, you know, feeling the need to conform or to, you know, and then giving themselves the permission or the space to figure out actually what's gonna work that is of this movement or of this--, it still allows for connection but doesn't sacrifice their own wellbeing inside of that. And how often people have those reflections about that too, right? (00:24:04) Like, have those reflections about, Oh man, that took a second. It took a second for me to figure out what was gonna work for me inside of this, and to give myself the permission to then do something else. And also then, and I mean, in your case, it sounds like y'all already knew you had a, a shared goal for why you were doing this and what it was helping in preparing you for. I think in some groups it's also that space to recognize that there's something shared because also, you have the people who will be detractors and be like, Hold up, I don't wanna do this, you know, <laugh> like, wait, why are we all doing this? <laugh> You know. So, there's also that. I love that exercise, and I love the versions of it that exist and that, what it gave y'all. And I think to this point about, like, bodies and access; I do wanna talk a little bit about just access in general. I think you are a teacher for many of us about disability justice and access and the relationships--, well, what it takes for us to show up well for each other and with each other, what we need to do to, to make our work accessible to everyone. And so, in particular, do you see natural alignments or are there natural alignments between disability justice and emergent strategy?

Chelsea: (00:25:19) Yes, I think there are. I think, even in the imagery of emergent strategy of, like, all the plants and the fungi and the animals that pops up in the book and pops up in how people speak about emergent strategy, not all of those things are the same, and they have to work together. You know, like, the fungi and trees, like, have this relationship with one another, yet they are not even remotely the same. Yet, they help support each other, and they're there for each other's needs. And it's not always perfect, and sometimes things don't go, and that happens in the real world with, well that is the real world, but that happens with humans as well. And I think, like, the difference that I'm kind of speaking to within the larger earth and all of the beautiful things on earth, while they may not be disabled or we don't label it as disabled because they're not humans, there are differences, and there are differences that they work through with each other in nature. (00:26:26) And I think within something like creating more possibilities, when I view a world where disabled folks are able to actually be comfortable in the world and have full access and don't have to even think about it anymore because it just is. That's a world I wanna see when we are creating more possibilities. With resilience, that--, the other one you spoke up about me, I see that disabled people, especially Black disabled people, we've had to have a lot of resilience to even survive in this world over countless generations. And I think that to be able to still be creating such amazing, beautiful, disabled communities in this really ableist world, there has to be some resilience there. Especially when I see right now with, like, COVID, a lot of the things that--, and I heard this term recently, so I don't remember where I heard it, but I'm gonna use it: pre-disabled people. (00:27:29) So people who are not yet disabled, but will be one day, are using these things that disabled people have created to survive this pandemic. And I also wanna say pre-disabled, I just wanna make a note on that, is, like, you know, if you live long enough, you will become disabled, every person on this planet. And so, we have to be living in a world where people give a shit about disabled people, not only for their community and people in the world and just being a nice, kind, human being, but also for yourself, because one day that is going to happen, and you don't wanna live in a world where people don't care about you and your needs. So, I just wanna say that's why pre-disabled, but it could also be non-disabled or able-bodied. But yeah, I do see emergent strategy as a way to, kind of, work within, like, disability justice, but I think, you know, it also depends on the people. People can, like, take something like emergent strategy and not create a good space for disabled people, not work with disabled people, and really limit the access of whatever they're trying to do so that disabled people don't want to come. And so, I think that it really also depends on who's kind of wielding the principles and wielding the knowledge of what emergent strategy is. So, keeping that in mind as well.

Mia: (00:28:50) Always. Who is wielding matters, and how you wield, and in community with whom? Well, so, to that end though, I think, we wanna know, what do disabled organizers know about community and health that everyone needs to know? And you talked a little bit already about, like, how we've been able to move through the COVID pandemic in many ways because of the infrastructure and systems set up by disabled folks. And so, maybe you can give a few highlights there, but then also, you know, what do we need to know?

Chelsea: (00:29:21) I think there are a million things people need to know. When I was doing a lot of organizing work, it felt at times, and a lot of the time, to be really ableist, like, the spaces we were in. Even in my own organization. I think every organization, but, like, has to work through the ableism that's popping out and it's really hard to do, right? Like, we are working on, like, learning about, you know, what is white supremacy, what is anti-Blackness, what is, what is capitalism? Like, we have, like, the, the bits of our curriculum or the bits of, like, what we're studying, the things that we're kind of seeing. And disability justice is often left out, and it's not yet seen, I don't think. Maybe now it's becoming more recognized in the work that people are doing to, like, even, like, have a passing thought about it. But I would feel sometimes really bad in spaces I was in, because--. I have one memory of, there was a bunch of youth organizing groups; we had to do these trainings every month, part of a grant. And the space that we were in, you had to go down some stairs to get into the space, and, like, one of the young people was in a wheelchair, and there wasn't an easy way, like, there wasn't a ramp, there wasn't an elevator that she could use to get down into the space. So, I don't remember how that got fixed, but in the moment it's, like, what the fuck? Like, I think you need to be able to know that, like, who your participants are in the space. Like, asking basic accesses I think is, like, something everyone has to do. And that's bare minimum, like, that's the barest minimum you can do is just asking what people need, and then delivering on that as best as you can. And I think so many people will ask nowadays, but, like, don't really deliver on how they can help create that accessible space for everyone as best to your ability. (00:31:27) You're not gonna be able to meet every single need, but how can you try to be there for the people, and be in communication with those people about their needs? So I think people need to do that, is like, even in your meetings, like, when you are starting a meeting, and you're doing check-ins--I hope people are doing check-ins; that's a good way to get to know each other, every single time you're meeting with people--, is just asking, like, what are your access needs? And reminding people that everyone has them, not just disabled people, and that disabled people have brought this language to other folks, but everyone has needs. They might not be able to fully understand what they are. Maybe they're not connected to their body or connected to, like, what's going on that they need to do something to help them stay focused in the meeting or help them stay present. (00:32:18) But everyone has them. So, asking those is important. I think also...I think a lot of people might think of the physical space first, as well. Like, can people get into the space? Like, is it wheelchair and scooter friendly? Do you use soap and lotion and sprays in the building that has scents, and that's, you know, that's a way to also to practice, like, being in community with others. Can people physically be, even be in your space? Like, I know that I would've had to fight really hard in a lot of places to make sure that, you know, when we're using things like soap, that it's unscented, but that's also bare minimum. I think people really need to just, like, be in community, in relationship with disabled people and hear, on a day to day basis, what we need and, like, be okay with that. Because as someone who's disabled, sometimes I physically can't get out of bed. (00:33:14) Like, my body hurts so much, I can't get out of bed, and I can't do the things I said I would be able to do that day. And I have felt a lot of shame about that. I'm not doing it on purpose. I don't actually wanna be in bed all day. It's not actually comfortable when your body's forcing you to lay down. But people have made me feel really, really bad about it, and have shared their disappointment with me that I couldn't do X, Y, and Z on this day. And so, instead of actually listening to what I was going through, how I was feeling, how it's affecting me, how it's affecting my work, like, and shifting how we actually do our work with each other so that, you know this is gonna happen, when I get flare ups. So this is not a one time deal, it's not me getting a cold. (00:34:03) This is gonna happen, you know, fairly regularly, and the more stress I have, the more flare ups I'm gonna get. So, to know that, how do we shift our organization? How do we shift our relationship with one another to know that that's gonna happen, and then, that's gonna be okay. Like, the organization is not gonna fail because Chelsea missed a couple of days. You might feel more stressed because of that, right. So, how, how do we shift who does what work? What work do we let go of for the day? And letting people know that that's fine. Like, letting things fall is fine. And that because of capitalism, we always wanna produce, produce, produce. And I think disability justice teaches us that we are worthy whether or not we are producing. And me laying there in bed in pain because of my flare up, I am fully worthy, and I should not feel bad about, do I have enough sick days to, like, you know, pay my bills? (00:35:00) Like, what kind of capitalist bullshit is that? I think even, on a policy level, like, what ableist things are we doing in our policies that make it really difficult for disabled people to show up in the work? And in fact, there are so many people, you know, working with young people, working with the staff I've worked with, who just by listening to them, and as a disabled person, I'm like, you're disabled. Like, you are disabled, but you don't know it. Like, you don't have that language, or it's scary to put that label on yourself, cause it feels like another oppression. It is, right? Like, you're gonna be oppressed because you're disabled. But there's so many people, I'm like, you're disabled, and you don't even know it. And you're pushing yourself in a really ableist, capitalist way that's, like, grinding you to the bone. And we're not even listening to our own bodies. (00:35:45) So I would also say people in organizing work need to listen to their bodies and go like, Hey, my body, like, needs to check out right now. Lemme check out, and that's gonna be fine. And we're not gonna make that person feel bad about having to do that. And so, I think the key thing out of all the things I've said, is just really just listening to disabled people and, like, individual disabled people you have in your life that you have in your organization that are members, and listening for people that have sickness, have illness, that have asthma, like, that's a thing, that's--that's a disability. And so many Black people have asthma, and, like, listening to that and going, Oh, this is a thing in our organization, we just don't label it, or they don't label it as disabled, but we need to keep in mind how our organization is showing up for even the depressed people, the anxious people, that's a disability. How are we showing up in a way that, like, allows all of us to show up in our full selves rather than showing up as productive workers under capitalism?

Mia: (00:36:46) Yeah. I really appreciate this and think it's a deep learning and a, a journey to get there, because I, I think this internalized notion of productivity gets rewired in movements as urgency to shift conditions for our people as, like, we gotta do this because otherwise the attacks on our people are real, their livelihoods, or, you know, their wellbeing, everything is at stake. You know, so it becomes something different than, framed differently as capitalist productivity, but as commitment to our, you know, our purpose and commitment to our vision. And unfortunately, and in many cases, there may not be the--a wide enough or broad enough team to distribute or re-distribute labor, or enough shared trust to then say, we can, you know, we can shift, we can move how this is happening or when this needs to happen, in order to make the changes in pace or to acknowledge what's happening in real time. And I've heard from many organizations in this time who have gone and worked to navigate the pandemic in different ways saying, yeah, we actually did not slow down. We just sped up or we just kept going. And it's like, wow, how to be so deeply outta sync--

Chelsea: Yeah.

Mia: --with, you know, with the needs of the people, in order to somehow serve the needs of the people. It's, like, a pretty interesting juxtaposition. So, I wonder what, you know, there's the listening, and then there's also the belief that we can be creative and adaptive in order to then also meet those needs, and meet what we've heard rather than to ignore them and to believe that what we initially had at stake can't shift.

Chelsea: (00:38:43) Yeah. I would be interested in hearing from you, Yani, like, what was it like for me to bring up disability and disability justice when we worked together at Hearing Youth Voices, and, like, tried to push for those changes, because on my end it was, like, one of the hardest things I think I've ever had to do, and it's, like, actually leaves a little of my heart broken of, like, how difficult it was. And I just wonder how it was on the other side, at least from one perspective, your perspective.

Yanitza: (00:39:11) Mm-hmm. Thank you for sharing that, Chelsea. And that's real. Like, I remember watching you go through that heartbreak, and, like, still we talk about it sometimes, you know. But to watch and experience the organization taking that on, I think there was something about permission, like, as an individual, you came back and brought all this information around disability justice, and, like, these are some practices that I think that we should embody and take on as an organization to move forward in a better, healthier way, less ableist way. And you're right, you know, it was met with resistance, and also I think it was brilliant to watch young people embrace it faster. Going back to that point of young people are so emergent, right. I feel like young people, before other adults on staff, were some of the first people to be, like, hmm, am I a person who lives with disabilities? Like, it's true. Depression, anxiety, oh my god. (00:40:15) And to watch the slow shifts in the young people that I think forced the rest of the adults to kinda like fall a line. And I don't think it was at a fast pace at all. It was a very slow pace, right. But to see how young people were the ones to be like, hold up, where are our access needs? You know, like, we cannot proceed in this meeting without our access needs. I can think of that just being such a beautiful thing and also, you know, adults having to fall in line with that to make the adjustments and adapt to make space for it. So I think all of that is to say, like, there was something in you bringing that into our space that gave all of us permission to think differently, and, like, maybe step away from that internalized sense of productivity and internalized capitalism and towards more human ways of working.

(00:41:27): Music Break - “nightqueen” plays. “You know, they call me the night queen, ‘cause I live in the dark. And I don't let nobody near me, and not betray my heart.

Mia: (00:41:33) I'm struck by the--, I'm struck by the statement that you said of, like, the heartbreak. The heartbreak in having to advocate, the heartbreak in having to push for the change. And there's two threads that are coming up to me in here. So, one is, like, what would've made that less heartbreaking? You know, just, like, as a, as we, kind of think about messages for folks, like, what are the components of moving away that feel heartbreaking? Is it the aloneness? Is it the speed of uptake? Is it the-- you know, what is it that felt heartbreaking?

Chelsea: (00:42:11) I think part of the heartbreak is not necessarily moving slowly. I advocate a lot for moving slowly. And I think when you're bringing something new into the work or you're bringing something new into your relationships with people, that it can be good to, kind of, do one thing at a time. Like, how can we do this one thing, and do it really well? And then we'll move on to other things. But I think the heartbreak came from this feeling I got where--, it happened at multiple times, not just for disability justice, but it would happen also for, like, bringing Blackness into the organization, like, really focusing on the fact that everyone here is Black, except for one person. And we are not talking about that or, like, actually incorporating that into the work at all. And we keep calling each other, like, a people of color <laugh> and it's, like, how do we, like, even acknowledge what's going on? (00:43:04) So, with disability justice in particular, the heartbreak that I feel there is this feeling of, you're bringing this up, Chelsea, because you're disabled, and you want these things. Kind of, like, individualizing it, rather than, like, this is actually gonna be good for everybody, whether you're disabled or not. And that we actually need to be doing these things. Like, there's no question about it. So even if we can't fully commit to a hundred percent of all the things, which is not gonna happen in just a few talks and a few workshops, that's--that's ridiculous and not gonna happen. But, I think to show that we're moving towards the things that we should be doing and messing up and learning our lessons and trying again and talking to more people about what they need and da da da da da, like, doing all of these things, and showing it's about for the greater community, it's about the new world, it's about creating new possibilities. (00:44:04) It's about listening to the wisdom of the disabled organizers and the activists that have been doing this work for a very, very, very long time. And the fact that we are able to, like, even have these organizations, even do this movement work, we have to give thanks to so many of our disabled ancestors who--like Harriet Tubman, she was disabled, and people bring her up all the time as, like, this Black woman who got so many enslaved people free and the importance of that, but leave out the fact that she had a head injury, that that's what brought her visions of freedom, that she would see these visions of, like, we are free, and say that: we are free, even as people were not free, kind of, like, living into this affirmation of, like, we are going to do this, we are going to be free that came from her disability. (00:45:02) That wisdom came from a disabled Black woman. When we talk about Octavia Butler writing The Parable of the Sower, Lauren Olamina is also disabled. And how she is able to do her amazing work is also through her disability of being able to actually feel physically and emotionally what other people are feeling. And that became an asset for her. And so, I wasn't feeling like people were seeing what I was bringing as an asset, and wasn't seeing my, like, crip wisdom or disabled wisdom or the wisdom from the ache in my bones that was going to help us move forward in how much more amazing this world could be if we actually gave a shit about disabled people. And so, it felt like a Chelsea problem, and I felt really alone. So you brought up being alone. So, even though I felt like I was surrounded by people with illness and sickness and chronic pain and mental health issues and were disabled and all of these words that you can use, I was surrounded by these people, but people didn't see themselves in that way and didn't see why we needed to do this. (00:46:21) And again, I think you know, Yani brought up young people were able to understand and kind of incorporate and embody these things a lot quicker than adults. And I do love that. Cause, I often have most of my problems with other adults in, like, the larger organizing world, not just my organization, but wherever I went, I would have these issues. But it just felt like I'm in this alone, and it feels really sad. And I think a lot of disabled people only work with other disabled people on this stuff, because we are met with horrible ableism that's, like, excused, that's, like, seen as okay; it's seen as we're the problem, and that we need to, like--. We can't do anything. Like, we're on our beds, and we can't do anything. So, like, let people go out in the streets and march when, like, literally I can't do that. So, I think I wasn't allowed to show up always as fully as myself in organizing spaces as I would've liked. (00:47:17) And I try really hard to always say that I'm disabled, this is what I want, this is what I need, like, keep this in mind, like, we need this. Because I know a lot of disabled people won't do that because they're afraid of, like, what will happen and the backlash and feeling alone, and those are the exact things that'll happen. But I-I think that I need to keep speaking up and letting people know what I personally need, and what people need to think about, and what they actually need to change, and what they actually need to do in their work to--not just include us--I don't wanna be included. Like, I just want to be thought of as, like, just part of the community, part of the work. Like, I don't wanna be, like, Hey, grab a seat, we're gonna include you now. That doesn't feel good either. But the heartbreak really is just, like, this is only for you, and we don't care about that. There are more important things than you. And that sucks, too, because even if it's just for me, I deserve these things. As a human, I deserve them. So, that's where a lot of the heartbreak was.

Mia: (00:48:18) Hmm. Thank you for sharing that. That feels both tender and so important, and--, for sitting with how we want actually all of our liberatory practices to be embraced, right, like, that we will all benefit. So this is not just for the one, and it's also okay if it's for the one, as a way as in a path forward for all of us, right, like, we can actually listen, too. That's called, you know, centering the margins, so to speak, right. We've learned. So, speaking to that, so, the other thread of this question was, you know, folks who have learned from heartbreak and used that, and you brought up Lauren Olamina. So I do want to ask you about the Octavia E. Butler Tarot Deck, because you have been doing some things to help bring the wisdom, the visions, the-the teachings for us, in a way that many of us appreciate. So how did you know it was time to make an Octavia E. Butler Tarot Deck? What was the process?

Chelsea: (00:49:25) Yeah, so, five years ago I had a dream. Like, I was sleeping, and I had a dream. And at that point I'd been to so many different conferences and trainings that it infiltrated my mind. And in the dream, I was in such a place, and there was, you know those, kind of, long white tables, those fold out tables where people will put their stuff to sell at these things. And on the table was an Octavia E. Butler deck. And I don't often remember any parts of my dreams. I wake up, and they're gone. But this one lingered a bit, and I have a lot of ideas, like, you can ask anyone. Like, I have a million ideas at all times. And I think that's just part of--, I have ADHD, so that's how my brain is set up, is to just be going at a hundred miles an hour. But I normally kind of put those things to the side because I'm like, I'm never gonna do this. (00:50:22) This is too much work, too much energy. I have so much stuff on my plate already, or, I don't even know where to begin. But I texted adrienne maree brown about it, because we're both geeks about Octavia Butler. And I was like, Hey, I had this dream. Like, do you wanna create this for real? And they were really excited about it, obviously, from the jump. And then adrienne asked if we could bring in Alta Starr, who is an amazing, an amazing person and, like, has been reading tarot since the sixties, and has a huge collection, and is just an amazing person. But I know both of them through BOLD. And we were like, Yeah, let's do this. So, very informally, when we would go to BOLD national gatherings, we would come together, like, maybe once or twice, and we just started slowly putting things in. It was kind of on and off, on and off, on and off, of working, done, not having a clear vision of how we would do any of this. (00:51:28) And I don't know exactly when, but we started to get a little more serious about doing some work. So, I, like, bought physical copies of a bunch of Octavia E. Butler books, so I could highlight different quotes, because the tarot deck, the way it is going to work is each card will have a quote from something that she's written. And so, all of us were, like, rereading all of the books and finding good quotes that would align with the meaning, traditionally, of the tarot cards. And we just started doing that. So, slowly we've started to, like, come together more formally and brought in a bunch of artists. We brought in AK Press, and we brought in a designer and editor and had two really great people come in and, like, kind of hold all of it for us, and, like, send emails and create to-do lists and da, da, da, da, all this stuff. (00:52:23) So that now, it is pretty much done. Like, all the parts that we need to, like, put together are completed. And it's been, you know, five years of, like, trying to do that. But it takes--, it was just, I think, a lesson in taking time. Like, I think, you know, one could have really rushed the project and felt really bad that it was taking a long time, but I don't feel any of those things. And I'm glad it wasn't rushed, and I feel like everything happened when it needed to happen, and--. Yeah, so that's kind of how it started, a little bit of the flow of the work and where we are now.

Mia: (00:53:00) Fresh. And you know, it's gonna drop, and it's gonna be right time for everybody when we get it. <laugh>. So.

Yanitza: (00:53:06) Listen, I mean as a person who's known you that entire time, I'm still waiting, and I'm happily waiting. It's not even anxiously, it's--. I'm just, like, when it comes to me, it's gonna come. And I've told this to Chelsea before, but I've been really curious about tarot since I was a child. Like, my grandma, I found her deck in her nightstand, and I wasn't allowed to touch it, but I did. <Chelsea laughs> And as an adult, like, I'm refamiliarizing myself with those practices, but I'm, like, I'm not buying any deck until this one comes out, cause I need it to be my first one. It's just the alignment there, like, I can recall at some point the last in person AMC, we went together to workshops around Octavia Butler and Parable of the Sower, and I think it was, like, in prep for this tarot deck, like, we went to a workshop around, like, how do you create your own tarot deck? And I remember us, like, collaging and tearing pieces of paper apart to, like, make our own cards. So, it feels really amazing and magical to watch the trajectory and, like, still just be at the end of it. Like, I know when it comes out it's gonna be magical.

Chelsea: (00:54:17) Yeah, I'm really excited, and we created this deck--. There's lots of things in the book that are gonna help guide people into, like, how to read the deck, how to, like, really use it, and we really want people that have never picked up a deck before, to people that have been doing this their whole lives. So we wanted to create this really hopefully accessible deck for people of, like, all ranges of interactions with this kind of work of using tarot.

Mia: (00:54:43) Oh, that's exciting. I--I'm feeling excited for the people who've never used a deck before, like, being able to engage as technology from the lineage of Octavia Butler. That is kind of mind blowing and exciting as a, a possibility that did not exist one, before you had this dream and y'all made this work happen, but also in general, it's like a, kind of, relatively new phenomenon when we have these images that reflect Black women, for example <laugh>.

Chelsea: (00:55:13) Yeah. Yeah, that's super important. And, like--, oh, something I missed is, like, part of the dream, part of the vision is, like, this deck is going to be something you can just throw in your bag, like, in the apocalypse. Like, you can just take it with you anywhere. And that comes from Olamina in the Parable books, like, in her bag. Like, she had a bag full of stuff ready to go to, like, you know, help feed people, help stitch people up. Like, she had acorns in there, like, she had a bunch of things in her bag that were gonna help her move through that apocalypse, through those hard times. And for me, this deck would be in everyone's bags. Like, so the deck is gonna come in a box that's a little bigger, you know, cause some people like to, like, have fancy boxes and, like, display them, but there's also gonna be, like, a smaller bag that you can just chuck your cards in and throw it in your backpack or your purse or whatever, even in your pocket. (00:56:09) And so that you can just have those on you as quick as possible and help guide you through the apocalypse that we're kind of living in right now. So, like, what--, how do I move? How do I do things? How do I, just, how do I get, get guidance? And I personally don't use tarot as, like, like a fortune telling tool. Like, I don't know what's gonna happen. Like, things will happen, and I'm just gonna let them happen. But I use it more as, like, like a therapist or, like, someone guiding me or a really good friend. And I think that that can be something that we all need, and if we're, especially if we're feeling really lonely in these times, we can just grab our deck and have, like, a conversation with the deck in ourselves or the deck in our ancestors or the deck in the universe or the deck in God. However you see it, like, you can have that conversation and get some feedback and get some guidance.

Mia: (00:56:59) I love that you said that, cause that's, for me, how I've primarily used any kind of deck is this conversation with ancestors or conversation with the universe or conversation with God. Specifically those ways <Mia and Chelsea laugh> , you know, where it's, like, ahhhh, I can't tell which voice; this is probably my--, let me, let me get a little other perspective here.

Chelsea: (00:57:19) Yeah. Exactly.

(00:57:22): Music Break: “KiN” instrumental plays

Mia: (00:57:35) Well so, we--, you know, we're nearing the end of our time, or have. And I really wanna honor your time, and, you know, there are a couple of questions that I feel like we're trying to ask everyone for this new season. And I do not want you to get away without asking them. So, the first is, you know, can you share with us some of the most important parts of your political lineage? I think we've already gleaned some from the stories you've shared and the questions we've asked, but, yeah.

Chelsea: (00:58:02) Yeah. The important parts of my political lineage. It's a good question. So yeah, I think through talking, I think Octavia E. Butler is one of those. And I think the wisdom from her books and the wisdom that she herself gave to all of us. I also think--, so even getting into this world of thinking about myself in the world and how to move in it and how to, like, do organizing part of it came from my dad. So, my dad isn't--, he doesn't do organizing work, like, officially, although I think he is a natural organizer <laugh>. But he's very passionate about pretty much everything I bring to him. He is a Black man who's gone through so much stuff, and we grew up, you know, in the same area. So, he went through all those things, like, in the sixties and seventies and eighties and nineties in a way that I can't even imagine. (00:59:02) But when I was a teenager coming into kind of racial awakening, because I was like, who am I? <laugh> And, like, thinking more about Blackness specifically--, I, I had always thought about it, but I was, like, how do I think about this differently? And I was doing, like, visual art, and I was making some art kind of, like, thinking through white supremacy and, like, what that is. And my dad noticed what I was doing, and he was like, What about Black power? And I was like, I don't know what that is, like, what he was referencing. And that led me down the path of, like, reading about the Black Panthers and going to the library. Like, I didn't--, I didn't go on the internet. Went to the library and picked out actual books and, like, read about the Black Panthers. So I think the Black Panthers are, like, another political lineage for me coming from my dad asking that very simple question of, like, what about Black power? (00:59:52) And that has stuck with me pretty much since I was 17 of, yeah, what about Black power? And how can I be about that always and be there for my people? And then I think also Audre Lorde, like, I have a tattoo of some of her work on my arm and always just thinking about the important work that she has done in her poetry, her essays, the things she's talked about, her being disabled and, like, having cancer and, like, The Cancer Journals and, like, reading those really helped me with my disability and, like, how to think about it and how to be Black and be disabled and still live a very free and joyful life in the way that I saw Audre Lorde doing that. And it really helped me a lot. I think also definitely adrienne; adrienne maree brown. Like, I feel so blessed to be her friend, and I feel so blessed to know her work and to be alive in the same time as adrienne. (01:00:55) So, I think emergent strategy, like, really opened my eyes to, like, you're not a freak, like. Maybe you are a freak, but in a positive way. But this is--, what you're doing is, like, on the money. Like, you're on the right path. There are other people who think like you. But I think ultimately my political lineage comes from a lot of, like, Black freedom fighters, Black artists, Black disabled people, just a lot of Black people in the community, who--, the community of organizing work, and also just the community of, like, the world and the diaspora, and, like, really getting to engage with people from all over the world. I think that's, like, my ultimate lineage and, like, and, like, kind of tied back to all my ancestors and, like, what they've gone through, and how I've even ended up in this space. And I think about those ancestors, and I think about me in the present, and I think about who in the Cleveland line will exist in, like, a thousand years. And I think even that as part of my political lineage, because I'm doing this work for that person, and I'm living my life as freely and openly as I am for whoever that person is gonna be.

Mia: (01:02:09) Thank you for sharing. I love the--, I love the trajectory and the bringing those that are before and also considering those to come. It just feels like such an important part of our considerations in our practice. And so, to that end, we also wanna know, you know, because at the heart of transformation is practice, simple, basic practice. So, what are you practicing, and is emergent strategy showing up in your practices?

Chelsea: (01:02:40) Mm-hmm. Right now, I'm practicing letting go, and allowing change to come as it needs to come. And that's a huge part of emergent strategy. And I think, you know, adrienne references, like, "God is Change" from Octavia's books so much. And I've been sitting with that a lot lately. God is Change. And a lot of that's actually come up in some of my tarot readings for myself lately is you can't control everything, and I have to just let things happen as they happen. Like, I can control myself and my own actions, but what comes from that and comes around me, I don't have any control over. So, kind of just, like, letting go and being okay with that. And I'm also practicing--, something I'm really, like, chewing on lately, and I wanna think about more and maybe--, maybe there's people who wanna, like, chew on it with me, is this practice of loneliness as fermentation. (01:03:40) So was reading this book called Tarot for Change, and I got the four of swords, I believe. And in the chapter--, the book is really bringing tarot in, in, like, therapy. It's a beautiful book; I highly suggest it. And there's, like, a poem in there, and, like, things in there about, like, how you ferment when you are in your loneliness and how you season. And I just wonder, as someone who has often felt really lonely through my whole life, like, this practice of, like, thinking of myself as going through a fermentation process, and like--. So, for example, when you're making miso or kombucha, like, you put these things together in a jar or a bottle, and you leave them in the dark, and you leave them in the dark for months, and they don't spoil, like just leaving out your dinner on the counter; they will transform into something much richer, much more interesting. And it is something that is delicious. (01:04:41) And I wonder how I can, like, be in that practice of fermentation as a human being, especially in the time of COVID, especially in the winter when loneliness, I think, or being alone is much higher for people. How do I learn the lessons from that? And I think, I don't know if this, like, is a connected to emergent strategy, necessarily--, I would, would love to be in conversation about it, since it's such a new thing I'm trying to practice and think about, but I'm deeply interested in, like, what that practice looks like, instead of spoiling and feeling bad and, like, learning nothing. I guess maybe, like, never a failure, always a lesson. Like, what are the lessons I can learn in that process as I'm changing in this bit of loneliness that I'm in?

Mia: (01:05:30) Yeah, I love that. It--I, it also makes me think of what you pay attention to. So I'm like, I would love to continue that exploration and conversation, because I think about that a lot, both in terms of, I think, the quality of aloneness that people have; you can experience when it's really generative, because it's, like, a really rich interior life from the dreamscapes, the landscapes, the thinking, the thoughts that are come through that, the writing, whatever-- (01:05:56):

Chelsea: Mm-hmm. (01:05:56)

Mia: --whatever it is. But I think a lot of that requires aloneness and requires the comfort of being alone. And then, that is a different quality of loneliness that comes with people or loneliness that is isolating. Right, and so I love this notion of the fermentation versus the spoiling inside of this kind of lonely-scape or loneness-scape. (01:06:22)

Chelsea: Yeah. (01:06:23):

Mia: So, yeah, that's exciting. Thank you for sharing.

Yanitza: (01:06:26) I love that analogy, Chelsea, and I think--, I love that as a practice for you. And I feel also maybe I've seen you in some of that practice already, whether you were naming it or realizing it or not, and thinking about kombucha, right? It goes to multiple fermentation processes sometimes. There's a first, and maybe sometimes a second for flavoring, and all of those things. And maybe this is, like, more of a second fermentation process, because I think of kombucha as something that, like, most people are like, hmm! Like, it's a particular taste that you acquire and now, more so, people are, like kombucha! Oh my god, we love it. And that's very true to just some of what I've heard you say, and just the experience of, like, you were bringing so many things that a lot of folks weren't ready for, and now, they're just catching on and, like, their palates have adapted and they're just, like, kombucha, let's go! (01:07:25)

Chelsea: Yeah. (01:07:25)

Yanitza: And that's a lot of what's happened with, like, some of those practices around just so many different things that you were bringing into our movement work.

Chelsea: (01:07:37) Yeah, and I think also to that is, like, fermentation can also take years. Like, you can have miso that takes years, or, like, a good wine, like, it gets better as it ages. So, like, you know, if people are just catching up on some of the--. I got immediately what you were saying. If people are just kind of catching up on what I've been bringing and like, are finally like, ooh, this tastes good. I like this kombucha; I like this miso. That also happens like, in, kind of, these waves. And I'm just interested in, like, what this looks like years out. And not only just loneliness; I just read something interesting about this person that does, like, she calls it neuro-emergent work and actually references adrienne. And part of something that she talks about is, like, with a neurodivergent mind--or, like, for example, like, people with ADHD or autism can have neurodivergent minds--is, like, stop thinking of things in, like, just hours or days, like, you know, the projects you're working on, and maybe who even you're becoming, but how do you look at things in months, years, and decades? (01:08:42) Like, how do we, like, expand these things longer than a couple of days, a couple of weeks. Often in, like, you know, non-profit models or in organizing work, things are like, we gotta do things quick, quick, quick; but how do we expand the practices we're in and think about them for decades and kind of coming back to the things we've left behind and having all these years to kind of, like, sit on it and really marinate in it. And I just also think about that practice in terms of fermentation as well as like, where will I be decades from now if I'm in these various practices I'm in? What's gonna happen when I'm 60? And what is that flavor going to be like by the time I get there? And how's, how's being 32 influence all the time in between and up to that point. So I'm, like, really excited for the juiciness that comes out of these different practices and not just thinking about them in these small increments, but, like, going decades and decades and maybe even past my lifetime. What will it look like for me to be in this practice and then have someone, again, maybe in a thousand years, be learning and benefiting from those lessons.

Mia: (01:09:48) Yeah. I was just talking to one of our other podcasts guest about also how, because things grow at different paces, because you seed in different moments, that also the blooms and the blossoms of what you experience, you know, may happen over time in different ways. And so, there is that way in which it can feel like, oh, there's a lot happening now, but it's, like, actually that was decades in the making. Or <laugh> cause you--, of what you see flowering. Or that the capacity just to tend and to be in your practice, you don't actually have to worry too much about the blossom. You just have to be in your practice and tending, and a lot can unfold from there. Just two more questions. Like, what's emerging for you, like, if you do have a next experiment that you are in the space of?

Chelsea: (01:10:40) I think [WORD UNCLEAR] right now, what I'm in a experiment in, or what I hope to be in, is a couple of things. One, I've been thinking a lot about how I've been just really burnt out from non-profit work. Like, I think nonprofits aren't gonna get us free, but I think as, like, a stepping stone to, like, whatever iteration is next on the path towards freedom. But I think the way a lot of them are set up, a lot of the practices that nonprofits have, like, really burn a lot of people out and maybe cause that heartbreak. And so, I'm like, acchh. I--, but I need a job, like, eventually, or, like, I need, like, steady income, so what do I do? And I'm, like, not actually--, like, that's a thought in the back of my head because I live under capitalism, but at the front of my head and the rest of my body, I'm like, I don't wanna do those things, so. (01:11:33) What can I do to, like, really support and help my community in a way that's different than how I did it, you know, in the past, like, decade? And I have been thinking a lot about, how do I create spaces of free? Like, free stores? That's a concept that's been around for a long time, but, like, places where people can go, kind of like a library which, you know, support local libraries. You know, they're one of the last places you can go for free. But, like, where are more spaces people can gather that are free and offer things? Like--. And one of the bigger goals of Hearing Youth Voices for years was, like--, and I think Yani really started that goal, was, like, having a cafe, and, like, having a space for, like, young people to go to. And I've been thinking a lot about that recently is, like, where can people go to and, like, just relax and, like, get free clothes? (01:12:25) And there's a mutual aid group in New London who does offer those things, like, downtown once a month, but they don't have, like, a space to do that. And I really am thinking about physical space. I have a friend, Christiana Smith, who is transforming her yard into a space like that. So she just bought a house, and so, how can she use her yard as a place for the community around her to, like, really interact with each other? And, like, I find inspiration in that a hundred times over and just thinking a lot about how I can move into doing more of that work of community building, community space that isn't necessarily tied to a foundation giving us money. So, what are the new models that we need to be experimenting in? And I know a lot of places are doing a lot of experimentation with mutual aid groups, especially during the pandemic, but I wanna keep experimenting and get back into actually being with people. (01:13:20) I have not been with them for the past two years. And another thing is I am in experiment of, like, relating to people, like, how to, like, give my love, how to show my love in huge ways to a lot of folks. I'm in this place of, like, studying, reading a lot, and talking a lot to people about, like, polyamory and, like, the limits of polyamory and, like, how it doesn't feel expansive enough for me. And there's still a lot of, like, monogamous, like, structures and thoughts in the way people, kind of, interact with people that they really share love with. And as someone who has trouble, like, sharing love to people, like, at all capacities, like, it's difficult sometimes for me to even, like, get--, I--I can count on my hands how many times I've given someone a hug. Like, how can I be in this experiment of, like, what are the expansive ways that I can show love to people? And, like, all people can, like, show love to people that don't feel like there's this hard limit based on, like, this box we've been given to live in, especially in the United States. So, I don't know how that's gonna turn out, but it's, like, this experiment personally that I also just wanna bring out that it's not just, like, me personally. But those are the two, kind of, experiments I want to be in, and I'm thinking a lot about.

Mia: (01:14:35) I love that. I love it. I feel like <laugh>, I'm like, I wanna zoom you in for dinner conversation with my teenage child that is in those particular questions, quite a great deal, both from the commune and the free spaces to the different ways in the limitless love that fall inside of what also works for their body --

Chelsea: Yeah.

Mia: And their capacity. So, I love it. That's so exciting. Okay, final. What's the most resonant question for you?

Chelsea: (01:15:06) For me right now it's, how do I love my full self without needing external things to fill me up?

Mia: (01:15:23) Wow, yeah, that's a question. That's a question, that's a question. Feels like that right there, you know, is the maybe a key to undoing capitalism and a key to undoing so many of the isms and a key to our liberation. So, thank you for the question. Thank you for being in it. Thank you for all your practices, and for sharing your miraculous and precious time with us today. It's been really, really lovely to be in this conversation with you, Chelsea.

Chelsea: (01:15:51) Well, thank you. I am really glad that I was invited to do this, and I am kind of buzzing with all the things that I wanna continue thinking about and hopefully, like, take some of the threads of this out into the world. But I'm excited to be here and excited to see what happens, what kind of change happens that I have no control over that comes out of this--<laugh>.

Mia: Yes.

Chelsea: --as we continue to be in all those practices.

Mia: (01:16:20) Awesome. And thank you, Yanitza. It was so nice to have y'all in conversation, and your dynamic is so sweet and lovely, and--. So, thank you for sharing your miraculous and precious time today.

Yanitza: (01:16:32) Absolutely, y'all. Thank you for letting me crash. This was a super sweet moment. I appreciate being conversation with you both.

Mia: (01:16:42) This podcast is produced by Mari Orozco, production coordination by Aliana Coello, transcription by Hannah Pepper-Cunningham. Music for the Emergent Strategy Podcast is provided by Hurray for the Riff Raff, and their album "Life on Earth." To support the ongoing work of the Emergent Strategy Ideation Institute, you can make a donation at ww.alliedmedia.org/esii.