BEMA 223: The Chosen S1E4 — “The Rock on Which It Is Built”

Transcription Status

29 Oct 24 — Initial public release

4 Jul 24 — Transcript approved for release

The Chosen S1E4 — “The Rock on Which It Is Built”

Brent Billings: This is the BEMA Podcast with Marty Solomon. I’m his co-host, Brent Billings. Today, we continue our review of The Chosen with a discussion on the fourth episode, our full analysis and breakdown of The Chosen.

Marty Solomon: Bringing us to halfway through Season 1. Hopefully, our listeners are hanging with us. Oh, what a fun experiment.

Brent: Hopefully, people are watching along with us. That would be ideal.

Marty: Yes, absolutely.

Brent: Because we are going through scene by scene, and we’re covering the whole episode, but it’s a very different experience than watching it. I cannot emphasize enough, if you have somehow made it to this point and have not actually watched any of The Chosen, please, just stop this episode and go watch, because it is great.

Marty: Absolutely. I wasn’t sure how you were going to lead us through this experience, Brent, but you’ve done a good job scene by scene. We have not left anything out. I wasn’t sure if we were going to hit hotspots or what we were going to do, but this has worked.

Brent: Yes. I don’t know how this happened—it’s just sort of how it came out, but I did do something for the first time with this episode that I hadn’t done. The first three episodes on the special edition discs include commentary tracks with the director, and writers, and one of the actors in the case of Episode 3. I’ve been watching with those commentary tracks in addition to my normal watch-through. Episode 4 doesn’t have one of those commentary tracks, they have these other things called insight tracks, and they’re like scripture references and other commentary and stuff. I watched this episode with that insight track on, and it looks like subtitles, and they’re going through, and it is the worst thing I’ve ever seen.

Marty: [laughs] We finally found something that we’re like, “garbage.”

Brent: There’s no possible way that the people who are doing this insight track have anything to do with the production of the rest of the show, because it is just like—all the scriptures that they bring up are all of the pulled-out-of-context, prooftext, nonsense things I grew up knowing. Like, if you have no—there are a few good insights about different things, geographical points that they bring out. There’s a few good things in there—but if you’re completely unfamiliar with any of this stuff, this insight track is going to do way more harm than good. It is almost completely worthless.

I’ve got one that I’m going to pull out at the end of the episode that I’m going to actually use as an example, it is just so cheesy. It’s like in between the scriptures, some dude is just like, making snarky comments as if he’s a narrator for the episode or something. It’s so bad.

Marty: [chuckles] Look out folks, you make Brent Billings mad! Oh, man.

Brent: Just forget about the insight tracks, do not bother. I suffered so you don’t have to.

Marty: [laughs] I love it. I cannot wait, now I’m anxious. Let’s do it. Get us into the opening scene. Let’s go.

Brent: Hitting that spoiler horn now.

[fog horn]        

Episode starts out, they’re on a boat at night. The Roman soldiers are out there with Simon. He spots the fishing bobber in the water, they go over there, he pulls it out. It has a Z on it. I don’t know how you actually say that. I’m assuming it’s pronounced something like a Z, but it’s the Hebrew letter. He seems like maybe he’s having second thoughts because he realizes like, “Oh, this is Zebedee, this is somebody I know. Now I’m here, and I’m not sure I really want to do this.” He’s looking around and tells the Romans to go hard to port, and they’re apparently so dumb when it comes to seafaring that they don’t even know what port is, so he tells them like, “Oh, that way.”

Then, I noticed on actually my third time watching this episode, that right before they hit the sandbar, Simon grabs the side of the boat because he knows they’re about to hit it, which I thought was a great little detail, and I’m glad I caught that.

[The Chosen intro music]

Then the credits roll, and then we’re back onshore with the soldiers. The soldiers thought Simon sabotaged them, and he’s like, “No, it’s just an accident. It happens all the time.” Then one of the soldiers cuts Simon’s ear out of their idea of kindness, and they exchange some threats and whatever.

Marty: I do have to say, I am concerned that that’s a setup for, how many seasons? Seven seasons, eight seasons, whatever they said there were going to be.

Brent: Seven seasons, yes.

Marty: I’m concerned that’s going to be a setup for Roman soldiers in the garden later. I’m saying this out loud at the beginning of this because I’m hoping that’s not what they’re doing, because those were not Roman soldiers in that story, but nevertheless, I’m getting nervous about that one. It seems like a setup. It seems like Peter’s going to chop off an ear, it will be—argh! No, it can’t be. Say it ain’t so!

Brent: I don’t know. Maybe they uncovered some historical idea of like, oh, if you want to show someone that you have the upper hand, you cut their ear, and that’s just—it doesn’t matter who you are, that’s just what everybody does. I don’t know. [chuckles] It’s probably—I don’t know. I mean, they haven’t written that yet, so they still have plenty of time to redeem themselves.

Marty: Absolutely, and it’s the servant of the high priest, it can’t be a Roman soldier. Nevertheless.

Brent: Then we jump to Simon and Andrew in the bar, they’re meeting with Zebedee and his sons. Simon’s like, “Look, I made a deal with the Romans.” The sons kind of jump out of their seats, Zebedee is maybe a little more patient about the idea, but eventually, Zebedee is just not buying Simon’s whole idea. He gets up and starts to leave, and Simon’s like, “No, let me explain what happened last night. We were practically in your wake, and I led them astray. I’ve got this plan about how we can do this,” but Zebedee doesn’t go for it.

Marty: Yes. We already know how mad he feels about the whole Peter backstory thing, but they did a good—I think that really is the feel of blue-collar Galilee fishermen. I liked how that scene feels, if I can say that. I’m not a feeler, but if I could say I like how that scene feels. I’m not a fan of the Peter backstory about him being like the scoundrel, but I like the interplay here of fishermen—I’m not even sure how I feel about the whole fishing on Shabbat narrative line, but if there’s a potential, they’ve done that well too.

Brent: Sure. Then we go to Matthew visiting Quintus. Quintus is going on and on, and he’s commenting on like, “Oh, there’s, there’s such good food around here and…

[episode audio clip]

Quintus: Everything that grows here is immaculate. Except the people. You’re such a miserable lot. You worship one God, and yet you’re all divided.

[clip ended]

Brent: He theorizes like, “Oh, the Jews just want a reason to complain. They want to be subjugated.” Quintus says to Matthew, “I need you to follow Simon.” He says he can’t do it because he’s not accepted by the people. Like, there’s no way he can just be sitting at the next table to Simon at the bar because he’s not even allowed in the bar, nobody accepts him. He’s like, “Tax collectors are worse than the Romans,” and the guy starts to draw his sword or whatever. He’s like, “No, you didn’t have a choice to be a Roman. I chose to be this way, I have betrayed my people.” Quintus is like, “It doesn’t matter. Just dress up, do whatever you have to do, write everything down.”

Marty: Yes, that whole scene was great. Everything from the fruit, and the food, and that setting, that 1st century culture. I did love the way the Romans perceived the Jews, the comment about, they’re always arguing. One God, so many—yes, everything about that was so Roman, so typical tax collector stigma. As much as I hate the Peter backstory, I just love the Matthew backstory. Just as much speculation, but I just love how they keep working that in, and who he is, and how it plays into Rome’s hand, and what he has to offer—I love that scene, it was great.

Brent: Then we’re after Episode 3, where it was just Jesus—As far as our regular characters, they’re kind of quickly bringing everyone we know from the first couple of episodes back in. We go to Nicodemus and his other teachers, his crew, discussing like, “Oh, John the Baptist—there’s this guy out there, and he’s preaching this baptism of repentance, and he called us snakes.” Nicodemus is like—

Marty: Yes, the worst part of the whole thing. In light of all the things that are going wrong in their worldview—“You don’t understand the worst part of it, he called us names!” Anyway.

Brent: [laughs] Nicodemus is like, “Well, it could be even worse than that, depending on who he is,” and he’s trying to ask some questions about it. He says, “Oh, I heard someone presented a list of evils done by Herod Antipas. Maybe it was this guy who did that. Do we know if he’s performing miracles?” They just have lots of questions about this.

Marty: If there’s anything that surprised me, I felt a little surprised that they would be unfamiliar with some of the things that I think I would qualify as Essene. But John— again, I think we said this in the podcast—John is definitely highly influenced by the Essenes and yet doing things in a way that’s very un-Essene. The fact that he’s out in the desert offering a more Essene baptism—and I do like how they pointed out, it’s a baptism of repentance. It’s not a Pharisee baptism. It’s not a ritual cleansing.

He’s offering people a baptism connected to the forgiveness of sins. That phrase “forgiveness of sins” may be somewhat—but this whole baptism, tavilat t’shuvah, a baptism of repentance—John’s really doing things in a slightly rogue way that’s stirring people up, it doesn’t fit into the cultural norms. He’s bringing this collision of all these worldviews, and it’s very upsetting for the status quo, so I did like that.

Brent: Then we have Simon coming home, and finds Eden there with her brothers. They’re talking about how they’re concerned about their ima, their mom. Then Simon gets into a little bit of a fight with the brothers, and then Eden breaks it up. She’s like, “Look, if Simon says it’s a bad time, it’s a bad time. I’m sure he has his reasons, but just because it’s a bad time for him, doesn’t mean it’s a bad time for me.”

Then the brothers leave, and then Simon gets a little bit honest with Eden, lays out the situation that they’re in. Eden is a little bit concerned for his life, and she’s like, “Look, either way, I’ve got to help my Eema. God is with me even if you aren’t.” Then Simon comes back like, “Look, we can break a commandment to save a life. Our lives are at stake here.” Then she kind of pulls back. She’s like, “This isn’t about the situation that we’re in right now. Where has your faith been in general?”

[episode audio clip]

Eden: Where is your faith?

Simon: What?

Eden: You heard me.

Simon: Faith isn’t going to get me more fish.

Eden: I’m not talking about tonight. I am talking about long before tonight, you’ve been different. Before, it was gambling, and now it’s working and trying to do everything yourself. The popular Simon, fixing everything and charming everyone all by yourself, and fishing on holidays without even thinking about it, with no respect for our God.

Simon: What about pikuach nefesh? We can break a commandment to save a life. Our lives are at stake here.

Eden: You don’t know that because you have not pursued the Lord lately, not like the man that I met. That is why you are stuck, and you feel desperate, and now you’re off to try to fix it yourself again.

[clip ended]

Marty: I feel like this whole scene, what I loved about it and I have in my notes—again, I’m going to be open to other people’s experiences and interpretations of this. I’m the white guy offering commentary on this female character, so I would love to hear how other ladies feel about her, the portrayal of Eden as Peter’s wife here. I loved this because as I saw it, and I could be wrong, I saw it as this beautiful picture of the ezer kenegdo that we talked about in Session 1. She has this chutzpah, and she has this passion, and this conviction, and this fire, and she’s not backing down from it.

She kind of calls Peter out, and she makes sure that he’s having to deal with his own consequences, and she’s not necessarily—she’s going to go toe to toe with him. She’s not backing down from her worship, from her faith, from her—she has a lot of—I don’t know if I had different eyes or I don’t know if maybe some of the ladies feel like maybe she’s being portrayed as too. It’s doing a good job of handling this first-century patriarchal culture, and yet, still calling her into this very chutzpah-laden role.

I can imagine some that really lean into the patriarchal culture even today probably feel like she’s not being submissive enough, but she is rejecting all that garbage. She’s going toe to toe with Peter here, calling out that ezer kenegdo, that plank, that help that opposes. Calling out of him what should be true that he’s refusing to hold onto. She’s going to hold onto it, so that that opposing force comes against him and is present in that marriage. I just love that. I love that about what I see with her in these episodes.

Brent: Yes. Again, her character has impressed me substantially, and I think not having a super clear picture of who she is from the Text is very helpful here, and that they can build a character, and not necessarily have to fit into these specific details that we have.

Marty: Yes, and I feel like they keep—I don’t know if they’re doing this on purpose, I feel like they’re juxtaposing her against Nicodemus and—I just blanked on Nicodemus’ wife.

Brent: Zohara.

Marty: Oh, Zohara. They keep juxtaposing the two of them, because she’s very like—I don’t know. Kind of like, by the book, has her worldly concerns it seems like, loves the status quo, wants to leverage the status quo. I feel like they keep juxtaposing this chutzpah-laden fiery Galilean peasant wife, and what she’s able to bring to the table, and what God’s doing through her, versus this other—Whatever. I’ll let it be at that. I feel like there’s a juxtaposition, almost back-to-back scenes in these episodes.

Brent: Yes. That’s interesting. I hadn’t thought about it like that. I do like the character of Zohara too, and specifically, the interaction between Nicodemus and Zohara, as I think we’ve talked about before.

Marty: She’ll have her moments too. This isn’t to say that she has nothing to bring to the table, and there’s only good coming from one character and only bad coming from the other, but I do feel like there are some types there that they’re juxtaposing, and I’ve appreciated that.

Brent: Yes. That’s a good point. These characters are actually very well fleshed-out complicated people, much like you would expect someone to be in the real world. I think that’s part of what makes this show so great. Specifically, with Eden and Simon and their relationship, I think I probably feel almost a little convicted, or at least I just see myself in that situation, because I have definitely had conversations like that with my wife when I’m trying to do stuff on my own. She’s coming in and calling me back too, like, “This isn’t what we’re supposed to be about,” so…

Marty: Well, shame on you, Brent. I’ve never had those experiences at all, so I’m shocked. [laughs] How dare you bring personal reflection into any of this?

Brent: Well, we’ll just see if that comes back at all. [chuckles] Then Simon leaves the house, and Andrew comes running up to him, just like sprinting, completely out of breath. He is like, “We’re saved. I saw him with my own eyes, the Lamb of God. John the Baptizer, he pointed at him,” and Simon just like, is not interested at all. He’s like, “I don’t understand how this guy can help us at all.”

Marty: I did like how it works that the passages and the verses—you have all these weird chronology you have to deal with in the gospels. Like, where does Jesus call the disciples, and how does the whole thing fit. Andrew goes and gets Peter, but then Jesus calls Peter and Andrew while they’re fishing. They did a really great job in the narrative here in the story of making all those pieces fit, where Andrew has come and he’s told Peter about Jesus, but then later, they’re going to be at the lake when they get called. They did a good job with that. I like that.

Brent: Yes. I know that that was something that they wrestled with a lot as they tried to piece everything together. This isn’t a single gospel narrative, so they necessarily have to try to harmonize things, which we have intentionally tried not to do, because in a lot of ways, they’re not meant to be done that way. In this case, you have to kind of fit everything together like that, so, yes, and it is a struggle.

Marty: That’s right. Yes.

Brent: Simon says—I love this line—“Sorry I’m not jumping out of my sandals just because creepy John pointed at someone.” [laughs]

Marty: Yes, that was good. [laughs]

Brent: Which I think, probably is exactly how a lot of people viewed John the Baptist.

Marty: Well, and they did a great job of portraying him later in the episode to fit that bill too, man. He definitely has that vibe. Oh goodness.

Brent: Yes, definitely fits within the narrative of the show, for sure. Andrew’s like, “You know what? Anything is possible. If this is the Messiah…” and Simon just walks away. He’s not buying it at all. Then Andrew turns around and spots Matthew “hiding” around the corner, taking notes, and Matthew’s looking pretty awkward. Simon gathers up his fishing supplies, Matthew is following him at a very unreasonably close distance. If you’re following someone, this is not how you do it. [chuckles] To the point where Simon turns around and just talks to him because, “This is too weird, I have to acknowledge this.”

Matthew’s like, “Quintus is coming early, you only have until tomorrow.” Simon’s like, “Okay, whatever. Tell your boss he can come get me off the water.” Then we have Nicodemus and Zohara eating, and then they have this unexpected knock on the door, and Yussif is there. I think it’s Yussif, right?

Marty: Yes.

Brent: I seem to mix up these characters pretty easily. I tried very hard to get them all right in this episode—I don’t know. He’s like, “Look, I got some information on John the Baptizer, he’s been arrested.” Nicodemus is like, “Whoa, what happened there?” He says, “Shmuel may have given the Romans his location.” Nicodemus is concerned about this, he’s like, “We don’t just turn over fellow Jews to the Romans willy-nilly.” He’s like, “Did the Sanhedrin order this? I want to question John myself, but I’m also going to make sure that I talk to Shmuel about this.”

Marty: Yes. Another one of the backstories that I like is how they show this interaction between Shmuel and Nicodemus as teacher/apprentice-subordinate. There would have been that divide in the Pharisee camp, like, how do you deal with a character like John the Baptist? What do you do with the Zealots? What do you do with the Essenes? They would’ve been split between Hillel and Shammai, between just the complexities of their theology, so that divide—there would have been Pharisees wanting that. You even see that with Jesus in the gospels, wanting to turn him over, wanting his ministry to be done, wanting to make it collapse. Other Pharisees like, “No, that’s not how we do it,” exactly what Nicodemus said.

I also like, from the bits and pieces you get from Nicodemus, he would’ve been very rare, at this point of history, and again, not Pharisees historically. Pharisees in Judaism were a very revered bunch that ended up saving Judaism, but for this thin slice of history where Jesus interacts with Pharisees, they’re in a tumultuous time of group development, a Pharisee evolution if you will. Nicodemus in the gospel stories seems to really rise to this interesting—he’s not your normal. He’s pushing, just like they’re depicting him in the show.

I like this backstory of even his own student. Even Shmuel, his own apprentice, he doesn’t like where his teacher is going. He’s pushing back, and he’s kind of doing his own thing, going a little rogue. Definitely interesting and fitting for me, I liked that. It was a good little moment that I missed, I think, the first time I watched it, but caught the next few times I did.

Brent: Definitely, a complicated group, and lots of different characters with lots of—I mean, what’s the common saying? If you have two rabbis in a room, you have five opinions, or something like that.

Marty: Yes, absolutely.

Brent: We definitely see that here. There are lots of different ideas about what to do with this situation.

Marty: Absolutely.

Brent: Then we see Simon pushing out into the water at night. He’s alone, Matthew is on the shore watching. Simon pulls up his nets, nothing there. Rinse and repeat, over and over and over, he’s getting more and more frustrated, he’s crying out. He starts questioning the promise of Abraham. He’s talking to God, “You redeemed us from Egypt only to have us wander in the desert.”

[episode audio clip]

Simon: You give us the land, only have us be exiled in Babylon. Bring us back, only to be crushed by Rome. This is the God I’ve served so faithfully my entire life. You’re the God I’m supposed to thank. If I didn’t know any better, I’d say you enjoy yanking us around like goats, and can’t decide whether we’re chosen or not. Which one is it? Huh!?

[clip ended]

Brent: In the midst of this desperate prayer, Andrew shows up with Zebedee and his sons, and he’s like, “Who are you talking to?”

He’s like, “Apparently, nobody.”

He’s like, “Well, we’re here to help. Even if you’re not willing to ask for help, Eden is. We’re here, let’s get to work.”

They put out the nets, and they continue to come up empty. Andrew’s like, “Look, about that guy that John the Baptist told me about, can we talk about that again?” Simon just shuts him down. He’s like, “Look, I don’t need a lamb, I need fish.”

Marty: Yes. Everything about—I loved the recounting of scripture, I loved all that. I remember when he went out like two scenes ago, he was getting done with Matthew, and I remember Matthew saying like, “This is foolhardy. What are you doing? You’re not going to catch enough fish,” and Peter has this little thing I think he says about, “Listen, if I’m going to get arrested by Quintus, if I’m going to go down, I’m going to go down doing the one thing that God called me to do.”

Which sounded really good, except where you’ve heard all this other backstory about Peter—you haven’t been doing anything that God asked you to do in a lot of ways, and yet here you are throwing—which I just love, because I related to that scene so much. Who among us wouldn’t be the kind of person who has just lived, maybe not in outright rebellion, but pretty much doing our own thing—then when the going gets tough, tries to throw ourselves like, “Well, I’m going to put my faith in God.” Well, you haven’t been up to this point, but now you’re going to, and yet in that whole experience—

Then when Andrew comes and he wants to talk about John, even I was annoyed watching—oh, come on, man. I’m so tired of hyper-religious people. I was even mad at Andrew in the middle of the episode. Like, now you want to talk about John the Baptist? No, shut up. Just fish. Even I was pulled into this like, “Oh, good grief, religious fanaticism of Andrew here is driving me crazy,” but yes, I love it.

Brent: Then the morning comes, and still no fish. Andrew says, maybe Simon should escape to Egypt as Zebedee had suggested. The night before, Zebedee made that idea jokingly, and they were like, “Oh, Eden wouldn’t want to go there,” and he’s like, “Oh, that’s fine. You can just send her money.” By the time the morning comes around, Andrew’s like, “Well, maybe you actually should do that.” Then they pull up another empty net, and everyone is just obviously tired and frustrated, and Simon’s like, “Look, forget it. Let’s just call it.”

Jesus is on the shore talking to a group of people, and they initially mistake the group for soldiers. He’s telling Andrew, like, “Look, please take care of Eden for me.” Then Andrew recognizes, like, “Oh, actually that’s Jesus,” and tries to explain it to Simon. They get up there, and Simon is trying to get away. Jesus is like, “Hey, apparently, these people can’t hear me. Can I stand on your boat to teach them?” Which that is out of the Text, but I do not understand—I’ve never understood in the Text, and I don’t understand now how him standing on the boat helped them hear him any better than they were before?

Marty: Well, as it plays out in the episode, it’s kind of tricky, but they do that still to this day. A whole lot of guides have this. It’s like one of their favorite tour guide parlor tricks. It’s all about the acoustics of being on water, I don’t think it would’ve worked quite the way—I think they would have had to have pushed out into the water a little bit, but if you’ve ever been around bodies of water, on particularly still bodies of water, once you get out there quite a bit, your voice really reverberates. Or even if you’re on the other side of a small lake or a pond, your voice really sails across the surface of that water. I don’t know what it is with the physics of whatever, but…

Brent: I could totally see that with still water, but I just don’t get the impression that the water here is very still. In the episode, they’re not pushed out to water at all, but even if they were, the Sea of Galilee is not that still. It seems like between the disruption of the waves and the crashing—No, crashing is a little bit a dramatic term, but just the sound of the water, it seems like it would mask—I just don’t understand how it would help at all, but whatever.

Marty: Yes. They do it day in and day out, so it’s definitely a fun thing that makes all the crowds go, “Ooh, wow, the Bible’s coming to life.”

Brent: I mean, it’s definitely in the Text, so… [chuckles]

Marty: Yes, it’s a thing, I’ve heard it. It’s cool.

Brent: Well, anyway. Jesus implores Simon to stay, and he says, “Look, I got to go. I got stuff to do.”

He’s like, “No, I’ve got something for you.”

Andrew’s like, “Just trust me as I’ve trusted you, this man really is the Messiah,” so Jesus and Simon look at each other, and they’re like, “Okay.” Then they introduce each other, they exchange names, then Jesus goes on. He’s like, “Okay, the Kingdom of Heaven is like this catch of fish, and they end up being sorted out. At the end of the age, the angels will come and do this process.” He talks about treasures new and old, et cetera, et cetera, goes through his teaching. I don’t know if you have any specific comments about how they pieced that together?

Marty: Well, I just liked how they did the rabbinical teaching. Like, they did piece together, and they did that throughout this whole season, which I like. I mean, Jesus is— like, if you were to follow Marty around for a long time, you would hear the same material packaged in lots of different ways. I love how they pieced together different parts of his teaching in different ways that aren’t just like verse by verse, quoting them out of the gospels, keeping everything in chronological order, because that’s very believable. That’s very much the case.

I loved how they portrayed rabbinical teaching where he actually gets in and grabs a net—Like, here’s a rabbi talking about something that you can see and touch. A very Eastern lesson, an Eastern parable kind of packaged in a Western way, obviously, for his Western audiences for the series, but I liked all that. I thought they did a really good job of presenting the rabbinic teaching throughout this.

Brent: He even pulls Simon into it, like, “Hey, what happens when you put this net out?” And he kind of winks at him—he doesn’t actually wink, but he’s like, “What normally happens anyway?” That felt very much like, yes, that would be, it wouldn’t be this monolithic figure spouting information, it would be this dialogue, this conversation, this participatory thing.

Marty: Yes. I feel like that also built off of—in the last scene where Zebedee and his sons come to help the fishing, and of course, you know from the gospels where the story is headed, but you almost get the sense like, Peter is out there on his own. Okay, now the community shows up, and now they’re going to say at least they’ll catch a little bit of fish, but they don’t even end up catching a little bit of fish actually. You get this almost like, okay, God’s behind their lack of success here. Like, God’s kind of setting this thing up.

Not that we’re told that in the Text in any stretch of the imagination, but as far as their art that they’re making here in the episode, but then there’s almost like—it keeps building on that as Jesus kind of has that winking moment of, “You know, what normally happens with this net? Whatever is happening tonight isn’t normal. God is behind this whole thing” and yet without it being really super tacky. I love the winks and nods to the setup, the divine setup to what’s about to happen.

Brent: Then Jesus dismisses the crowd. He steps out of the boat, and he’s like, “You know what, Simon, put the net in one more time.” Simon kind of like, whatever, resists a little bit, but Jesus looks at him without saying anything, and Simon’s like, “Okay, fine.”

The net goes in the water, and then they exchange looks a little bit, then suddenly, the boat almost tips over. Simon starts freaking out and calls for help. Zebedee and his sons hear that call, and they start running down the shore through the water. Matthew stands up and starts watching, and he’s in disbelief. There’s a few people left from the crowd, they’re surprised with whatever is going on.

Everyone is wrestling the net, and they’re just trying to like—you start to see all the fish, and then they finally get the whole thing into the boat. The boat is practically filled to the brim with fish, and Simon just can’t say anything. He jumps out of the boat because it seems like it’s still a little unstable. They get out of the boat, and then Simon just falls down.

Marty: Before you get there, the moment as that’s all happening, one of my favorite cinematic moments is, it’s a picture from this that kind of gets seared in my brain because I think it’s just a beautiful representation, is this like Jesus smiling, brimming almost to the point of just laughter at what’s taking place in front of them. Everybody else is just scrambling to react, and Jesus is just sitting there taking it all in, just enjoying it. Even at the end there, he’s going to look up to the heavens and kind of be like — you see him almost whispering, uttering this “Thank you.”

Brent: Yes. Even before he looked up, he just kind of like—once it seems like he took the whole thing in, he just nods like, “This is good.”

Marty: Yes, absolutely. Again, just really showing his humanity in partnership with what God’s doing, but he is just in it, fully experiencing it like, yes, absolutely, and that nod. But I love that picture of Jesus. I wonder how often in our world, when stuff really happens, when the Kingdom is banging on all cylinders, and Jesus just has this smile, on the verge of laughter experience as all of us just try to scramble to deal with something that’s just pure God. I loved that image that I’ll carry with me from that.

Brent: Yes, that’s beautiful. Then Simon does get out of the boat and falls down before Jesus, and he’s like, “You are the Lamb of God, yes?” Jesus says, “I am.” He’s like, “Depart from me, I’m a sinful man, blah blah, blah.”

He says, “Don’t be afraid, Simon,” and he’s like, “Look, what do you want from me? Anything you ask, I will do,” and he just says, “Follow me.” That’s the moment right there, of course, when he turns and acknowledges Andrew as well, and turns and says, “James and John, you guys come too.” They talk about being fishers of men. Simon’s like, “Hey, maybe we could do this fish thing again. We make a good team.” He’s like, “No, forget the fish. The fish are not important. You’re going to be fishers of men.”

[episode audio clip]

Jesus: From now on, I will make you fishers of men. You are to gather as many as possible, all kinds. I will sort them out later.

[clip ended]

Marty: Yes, absolutely. Those are my favorite statements. All kinds. “Your job is to get all kinds of fish, I’ll sort them out later.” Again, man, what a self-reflection to just be—I don’t want to say condemnation, but man, just we busy ourselves so much about sorting them out. It’s just not our job. Our job is to get as many people into this Kingdom experience, into this goodness, into this havurah. Just bring them in, bring them all in, all kinds in. Let Jesus deal with who’s in and who’s out. Let Jesus deal with all the blah blah blah. Let Jesus deal with all the details. Just go get them and bring them in, share the goodness. Love it. Love it!

Brent: Then, this is actually before the credits, but it kind of has the feel of a Marvel Cinematic Universe after-credits scene. You see Nicodemus enter this prison cell, and you realize, like, “Oh, this is where they’re holding John the Baptizer.” John calls Nicodemus out, and he’s like, “You seem more frightened than I am about this whole situation.” Nicodemus is like, “I have questions for you about miracles,” and then that’s the end. Now, if you remember—

Marty: Oh, yes, I want to hear this. Give it to us.

Brent: The insight track, after Nicodemus says that, there’s no other commentary in this entire scene. Nothing about the historicity of the prison cells, there’s no scripture references, there’s nothing. There’s no commentary at all in the scene, and then Nicodemus says, “I have questions for you about miracles,” and then it pops up: “Bring it on, Nico.” That was the whole thing, if they weren’t quoting some scripture out of context, it was dumb comments like that the entire episode. It was just so worthless.

Marty: You’ve heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. Brent Billings, bringing the fire.

Brent: Yes. Don’t bring it on with the insight track, I’ll just say that much. Well, that concludes this episode, Marty. Any final thoughts before we shut her down?

Marty: Nope. Another good episode. Not my favorite-favorite, but it’s good. I liked it.

Brent: I think it’s one for the small moments, like the looks that Jesus exchanges with people, not necessarily the dialogue. The actors did a great job just relating to each other. I thought really that that’s where this episode shined after I watched it for the third time and had an opportunity to take in some of those things that I missed the first couple of times. I think that’s what really did it for me with this episode. It’s good. If you want to get a hold of Marty, you can find him on Twitter at @martysolomon, I’m at @eibcb. Then of course, you can find more details about the show at bemadiscipleship.com. Thanks for joining us on the BEMA Podcast, we’ll talk to you again soon.