PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - EPISODE 022

INTERSECTING SKILLS WITH AMANDA DUDZIK

Please note: This transcript was created with the assistance of AI technology. While we strive for accuracy, the text may contain errors and should be verified against the original source for critical uses.

Annemie Tonken  00:00

I recorded today's podcast with Nick North two weeks ago before George Floyd was murdered. And before the civil unrest that has ensued took place. And so I almost decided to push this podcast drop date off for some period of time, and focus today's conversation more specifically on that. But upon further reflection, I really feel like the reason that I brought Nick on the podcast in the first place, which was to talk about authentic messaging, and reaching your audience, by showing up as your honest and true self, actually bore a ton of relevance to all of us right now as we try to navigate the sometimes difficult and confusing waters of, of what we say and what we do online, in our personal online personas, and also as representatives of our businesses. So I hope that you enjoy today's conversation with Nick, understanding that we are not directly addressing current events, specifically because they hadn't yet happened. And that our conversation, though not specific to that will give you some good takeaways as you navigate forward. I know that it has certainly been helpful to me.

Intro:

Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it. And I can show you how. Eric north, I'm so excited to have you on the podcast today. How are you?

02:04

I am so super good. How are you?

Annemie Tonken  02:09

You know, pandemic good. We're good. We're good.

02:12

Good. I guess that's true. Yeah. And I

Annemie Tonken  02:15

know you've got some crazy stuff going on trying to move in the middle of a pandemic sounds exciting to say the very least,

02:22

I mean, it, it adds a certain flair to things.

Annemie Tonken  02:27

Well, it makes me extra appreciative that you are willing to take 30 minutes and come chat with me here. I know my listeners are going to be super excited to hear from you. I have had you on my mind for the podcast for months now. And probably for years, except that my podcast is only months old at this point. But

02:46

but in the making.

Annemie Tonken  02:49

You know, I have known you for a long time now. And I have known of you for a long time. And I have always just found you to be such a you've got you're a person who is so compelling. And you've got such great stories. So when I was going through and I was trying to put my my plan together for you know what different topics I wanted to talk about on the podcast, I knew that I wanted to talk about messaging and using authenticity. And we'll talk a little bit about how that's some sometimes a confusing buzzword. But how being your authentic self is really a great way to connect with people, especially in the artistic space. And you were 100%, the first person that I thought of and so I'm super excited to have you here to talk about that. I'm

03:37

super glad to be here to talk about it. Because it's basically my favorite thing to talk about.

Annemie Tonken  03:44

Yeah, so I you know, and I come at this as someone who has really had to work over time, I don't know if it has to do with birth order, or what I'm an old oldest child and I I have as an adult really had to come to terms with being myself versus being what I think other people want me to be. And so that that buzzword authenticity always kind of sends me into this like, oh gosh, am I being authentic? Do you think I'm being authentic? So I think it can be hard for a lot of us there are some people for whom it seems to come naturally more naturally. But but you are the the reason that you came to my mind for this is that you have, you know, you have a rather unusual and in many ways, a particularly challenging set of issues around the concept itself. And you have navigated navigated those over the past years that I've known you with such grace, and you've managed to do that in a pretty public way and incorporated that into your brand. So you are like a unicorn in this space. As far as I'm concerned.

04:50

No unicorns on this one. It's true. I own the market on it.

Annemie Tonken  04:56

So instead of me blathering on I wanted to Um, give you an opportunity to tell the my listeners who may not know you or your story a little bit about your background and your story. Yeah,

05:08

so I am like whom in a nutshell, I may not make this take the entire podcast. So I was born and was assigned female at birth, which means that the doctors were like, it's a girl and everyone clapped or something. That's what people did back then, and smoked cigars. But I, I didn't ever sort of feel like that fit. And I did the best that I could to be a girl for as long as I possibly could. I did all the things I wore nail polish, I learned how to wear makeup, I plucked my eyebrows. I birthed children. I married a dude, I did it in opposite order of that. You know, I did all the things. And it didn't work. It didn't stop me from feeling crappy. It didn't. It was like I had all these holes that I couldn't fill. And I didn't know why I had all the things that one could want had the nice house in the big fancy car. And I had the four kids and really like, honestly, my husband was like, the nicest guy on the planet. He still is he's not dead. That sounded like, yeah. But like, I've had all the things and it just it didn't feel good. And so then I've sort of blew it all up and admitted to myself who I was, which started with meeting my husband and you know, starting to date a woman and then realizing I was a dude. And then transitioning or getting married to said woman then transitioning and, and now I live life the way that I was sort of, I was meant to I think and yeah, I'm just just the dude. I

Annemie Tonken  06:59

think we all at some point experienced some level of like, Oh, I'm in a situation that I died. I shouldn't be here. I but your story is certainly a more it required more doing to get from point A to point B and and you did that the

07:19

upsides of my situation? Is that it? I do, you know, I get a lot of credit for it, because there's a physical transformation that happens. And so because people can see how far I've gone from A to B, I get more credit, I think, but it's not really much different than like, you leaving your marriage that you were unhappy in, I assume, or you wouldn't have left it. Like it's, it still takes that same courage. It just everything is hard. There's no scale of hard, you know, like, I don't, as much as it's unique. It's just because it's a more like, concrete example of it. I think that we all end up in spots where we're like, how the hell did we get here? I just did the thing that was in front of me. And I wasn't in you know, in not making choices. I was making choices. And here I am. And I it's seven years have passed and I don't know like when I was married to a dude for 12 years. That's a long time. To not be married, like to be with a dude as a not straight like as a not gay dude. You know, like I just yeah, a long time. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  08:25

but inertia creeps, right? Like it is it? You're absolutely right, you take one step in front of the other, you're doing the thing that you think you're supposed to do, or someone else there's a script, and you're following the script, married,

08:37

so then I should buy the house. So then I should have kids. So first I got the dog then the kid has Okay. Well, it was what happens. Like, you know,

Annemie Tonken  08:46

yeah, and there's, you know, I think it can also be really hard society tells you marriage is hard or adulthood is hard or whatever is hard. And so there's that question of like, well, is, is my hard? More hard? Should I should i is, is this just normal? Hard? I think that that's, you know, all of those things. They're very and they're it's such an isolating set of questions to be asking and to question where you are. It's not it's not really widely accepted to go out and like ask everybody like what told me I'm miserable in my marriage. What

09:21

do you do your marriage? Tell me Yeah, it's

Annemie Tonken  09:25

all there's a lot of shame and sort of needing to be careful about who you talk to and all those kinds of things that that make that extra complicated. And so I you know, I appreciate the fact that you are saying like, my sich yours, your situation is easy for people to look at and say, Great job, you have this sort of outward transformation that indicates the inner transformation, but at the same time, it's a lot to take on I have to be the poster boy for, for transformation for. I mean, that's a lot to carry for people.

10:09

I mean, it is, but I sort of think of it as more like, oh, I actually just get to reflect back to other people what they're capable of. Because if I'm capable of this, and you can see this physical transformation, I'm really just a mirror for like, Okay, well, then what are you capable of? Because it's probably not this hard. So you probably could do yours too, right? Like, you know, like, there's that little bit of, I just get to be this mirror for people. And so I don't necessarily think of it as like a burden to carry as much as just like, a reflection.

Annemie Tonken  10:40

Yeah, well, that's a, it's a generous way of, of handling in any way. And it and it really, I think, speaks to the reason that we're, we're talking here, which is the fact that you have taken this trial in your own life. And I mean, let's call it what it is, right? Even if it has landed you in a in a place where you are better off than you were before, it has not been easy, I'm sure it has not been without its struggles. And so to then take on the additional layer of wearing that and being outspoken in many places, and offering to other people who may need that inspiration, your own life and your own story as an example. It speaks to the fact that you have been an authentic representation of yourself in, in a semi public sphere, you know, social media, and you speak a fair amount. So yeah, so talk to me a little bit about how you know, now you're living life out loud as it were. Yeah. Whereas before, so and I knew you originally as a photographer. Nobody knows this. We you and I both were on Creative Live as students way back when creative live way back. I think it was 2012. Probably for both of us. I anyway.

12:18

I think mine was 2011. And like, it was just barely, I

Annemie Tonken  12:22

think, yeah, it's so funny. Oh, my goodness, millions of years ago. So. So if any of you want to see baby neck, and maybe you can go back into the very deep archives of great

12:36

thing is is like the outfit I was wearing minus the terrible newsboy hat I probably would still wear to this day. I was like, Ooh, that was silly. I love that cardigan. It was good.

Annemie Tonken  12:46

That's so funny. I would not wear whatever I was wearing for sure. And my hair was an abomination.

12:52

My mom also, I think I looked a little bit like I had a math problem. I'm being honest.

Annemie Tonken  13:01

Hang on, guys. I have a quick message for you. Did you know that this can't be that hard isn't the only podcast I host. Each month my marketing director Dana and I team up to bring you a fresh injection of marketing ideas and inspiration on our other podcast called the consistency club. The podcast is free and available to any photographer looking to uplevel their marketing game. Or you can take it one step further and join the consistency club where you get the extended version of the podcast along with monthly email and social media templates, bonus trainings, and special access to the live marketing events we host twice a year. If you're interested in tuning in, you can search for and subscribe to the consistency club. Wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to join us in the membership, you can visit go dot this can't be that hard.com/club to sign up. Oh goodness, that was not there. Yeah, that was not my impression. But anyway. Okay,

14:00

good. Thank you, Josh.

Annemie Tonken  14:02

So what I say all of that to say that I knew you first as a photographer. And and so you were working and living as a woman and a photographer and you are neither of those things. Now, how would you say that? Would you say that you were living authentically in a you know, on your website and in your social media and stuff like that at that point? And if so, how has I mean we all change over time, big and small, right? But tell me how that has morphed and how you've navigated that a little bit.

14:36

So when I first started as a photographer, I was not nothing about my website was authentic. I was it like it was on a step to authentic but it was like an authentic version of who I thought I had to be in order to be successful as a child, photographer and as like as like a family photographer. So my like, logo was like a little more frilly did it but it was like tattoo inspired but frilly and it was like it was still me but just a lot softer and gentler. And I didn't swear anywhere. And I like had uplifting music in the background. I'm one of those blue domains that people used to have. Yes,

Annemie Tonken  15:16

on the website

15:21

did that. But I didn't do very well then that was that didn't go very well for me. i The time where I started to become successful as a photographer was when I started swearing on my website when I started saying that I actually don't really like kids very much that I don't like the my, my like superpower, as a photographer was being able to find something that was likable about anyone even because I didn't like most people because I was like, you guys, you're boring. You're like, whatever. Okay, we got to find something likable here. That my about page was like, You're here because you traded in red solo cups in a dive bar on Thursdays for a beer in the backyard with your neighbor. And you're you're not quite sure if like you've made the right choices in life. But here we are nonetheless, like that was my it was for people who still wanted to be cool, even though they were parents that like, the dad still wanted to be seen as not like a balding Dad bod. Like person they like still long boarded. And like, I don't know, I just had this this very diverse group of clients that were nothing. They were like the outcasts of the city rather than like, the 80% that made up Calgary. And you know, I remember my husband at the time being like, you can't swear on your website, you can't say these things. And I was like, I just I'm going to like my, my most successful campaign was when I start when I did my mother lover. Mother's Day campaign, and I use the like, I'm a mother lover, you're a mother lover, we should fuck each other's mothers song from Saturday Night alive. Yeah. As my Mother's Day campaign, and I sold out and had to add, like two more days. And I was like, oh, there is a desire for this. But he was like, you could not do this. This is like, what are you doing? And it was like the first real taste of success I had as a photographer where I was like, Oh, I found the thing. And it was actually just being myself. Yeah.

Annemie Tonken  17:28

And being willing to step outside, like color outside the lines a little bit.

17:34

And like be okay, that the people that were that came to me that like a bunch of them are going to be like, Oh, yuck. Like, as much as you know. I'm not a huge Jasmine star fan, because I just don't know her very well slash I'm not a wedding photographer. But like, I do remember from the Creative Live days for always being like, attract and repel. That's the thing that like, she coined and she's not wrong, you know. And the truth is, is I think even more now that are now that the world is more saturated, and we have to stand out even more. The idea that like people are hiring you, because you're a good photographer, is unfortunately like, it's so wrong. It doesn't exist anymore, if that used to be the way or it was like because you were the only photographer or because you were the good one. But now there's like so many of us, and that is true in every field when photographers are like, but it's so saturated in my city. And I'm like, yeah, and every city and they're like but it's different with photography. And now I don't work with just photographers I work with any creators so I work with life coaches, I work with writers I work with painters I work with basically, if you are a solo entrepreneur, and it's somewhat creative, you I work with you and every single one of them is like but it's saturated in my industry. Yeah. Welcome to the world now. Internet and we can we can go to like 30 billion people or eight. I don't know how many people there are in the world, but a lot of them I don't think we're Yeah, 8 billion, 8 billion. Yeah, trillion in Canada. That's what I'm saying. But like, there's 8 million a billion people in the world. Let's just say half of those people have internet access, we can go to a lot of those people.

Annemie Tonken  19:24

Right. You know, yeah. Yeah, I think that that attract and repel thing is, is so true. And it's so scary for people because we're all all about attracting and especially when it comes to our art right. And I have talked about this a lot. When you're selling a widget. You can you can be someone can say yes or no to you and it doesn't feel when they say no like a rejection, it also probably doesn't feel quite as personally good when someone says yes, but the nose hurt or they can hurt. And one of my favorite things, and I've actually mentioned this and credited you on the podcast before is, is your, your phrase collecting nose like going around and getting used to like building up your tolerance for people saying no to you. Because the sooner you build up a tolerance to that, the sooner you are able to, like, embrace that thing that is you that is authentically you and that some people are going to reject.

20:38

Yeah, and there's so many different hacks to do it. So like an example for me, I also hated being told no as a photographer, but I didn't mind them saying no to the actual photo. I hated them saying no to working with me. And so I made myself have a really low session fee. Because I knew that on the sales side of it, I could sit in their living room and show them their images. And if they were saying no to the images, it wasn't because they were saying no to my art. They were saying no to the how they looked in that photo. They were saying no to this is my budget, this is what I have to spend. And so it's somehow it was like a mind trick, like a Jedi mind trick I used on myself to allow my like, it wasn't about them. It was about what do I what am I okay with them saying no to? Can they say no to this picture that I think is great. And they don't? Sure because they have all these insecurities about the way their nose looks in that photo and how their chin looks like this. And actually, we only can afford one photo. And so therefore, we're going to use our thing on one canvas and not it. You know what I mean? Like, yeah, it wasn't like, No, I'm hiring someone else. I don't like you. Yeah. And so I took away the barriers to hiring me, and just was a better salesperson on the other end.

Annemie Tonken  22:00

So that's really interesting, because I also feel like there's a little bit of the of the converse, right when when you take away the barriers to hiring you the financial barriers to hiring you or to hiring you. Then if they say no, it's like, oh, that's all about me. Yeah.

22:18

Yeah, it is. It's it's tricky. Because I've definitely

Annemie Tonken  22:21

been in the seat where I'm like, they just didn't hire me because it's too expensive. I mean, I don't know if that's true or not.

22:29

Yeah. I mean, I also did the same thing. But I the I still made the money I needed to on the other end. And so I could still say it was because it was too expensive. Because I still charge really, like I charge appropriately for my friends, right? My canvases and my packages, like my average spend was $3,200. So it wasn't like, Oh, I was screwing myself over. It was just that the upfront spend was 199. Yeah. And like, I knew that once they had the photos in front of them that I could deliver. Yeah. And so I could still use that out of like when they actually looked at the pricing and realize that they probably were going to want a bunch of photos up front. I'm not the right person for that. Right. There's still ways to like Sure. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  23:11

we didn't tell ourselves whatever we need to exactly.

23:15

The thing is that as uncomfortable as it is, it's really healthy to be able to every once in a while sit with let go. Like they just didn't like me. Yeah. And like that's okay. And for me personally, that is really hard. I struggle with that it is extremely hard for me. I am like a people pleaser through and through I am a Gretchen Rubin obliger I am or like Enneagram caretaker. I am like a whole I just I need to take care of people I need people to like me.

Annemie Tonken  23:48

So tell me how you reconcile that with living what you know, is a very socially, what's the word that I'm even looking for? Controversial? At least I mean, myself is revolutionary. Yeah, exactly. And it shouldn't need to be, by the way I

24:12

would as a trans person is we're a marginalized community. We can look at the number of you know, like in Michigan, it is okay. It's illegal to throw a snowball at a car, but it is legal to fire someone for being trans. Like that's the spot that we're at, like. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  24:35

yeah. And

24:40

so yeah, it is hard. It is like I've lost speaking gigs. Like I had a speaking gig booked in Utah. For like, maybe six months after I transitioned. And when I announced that I was transitioning, they wrote and said that unfortunately, they didn't need me anymore. Like, right, you know, because it's the and I get it, they have all their followers were Mormon and like, was like gonna fit in I don't know, it was a thing in Utah, like, and that was five years ago, four years ago or whatever. So it's yeah, it's like, it's a lot. There's things that you lose because of it. You have to reconcile that you have to, like, sit with that and, like, mourn that and grieve that. And I think the, the more you just sit with it, and let yourself feel the feelings of it, and like, that really fucking sucks. I think the faster you can move through it and be okay. Yeah, but there's no way around the part where it sucks, you know, it sucks to lose a speaking gig because of who you are. It sucks that people can fire you because of who you are. It sucks that, you know, trans women get murdered for just being alive it. Yeah. You know, it sucks that. You know, black people have to deal with the fact that they're not being hired just because they're black. Or, like, That's the least of their concerns. You know what I mean? Like, there are so many things that suck about being us. But that's true for everyone. Like everybody has that thing. And if they don't, then they have some other terrible thing that we probably don't know about. I don't know. That's just my own little philosophy that like it all balances out. And maybe that's wrong. But it's the way that I have to think about it in order to like sleep at night and know that it's like my own little like, hack of figuring it all out that we're all going through things and it all balances out at the end.

Annemie Tonken  26:36

Absolutely. I think that there's truth to that. And I also think once again, that that's a very generous way of looking at it, I have to push myself at times, especially in this political climate to try to remember that people are all people. But But yeah, I say that specifically. Because you I feel like your willingness to, to wear that mantle and to be yourself in a public space. Is is brave. And I know that that word gets overused. And I don't mean to be trite in any way. I think it's true courage that's required. And I was listening to something a while ago, and I wish that I remember exactly where it was. But I heard someone talk about social media and our sort of, like, constant presence, living our private lives in this relatively public sphere. And her advice was, you can share your scars. But she said, share your scars, not your wounds. And

27:49

that Katherine and I always say is we the I always have a post on my Instagram, maybe like a year ago, or six months ago, that was something about the idea of like, sharing from the scars and not the wounds. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  27:59

yeah. Because of the vulnerability. And I am a big believer in being vulnerable, but you don't I mean, when you're putting yourself out to the court of public opinion, and you're sharing raw feelings that you haven't necessarily yet coped with, or, you know,

28:15

grappled with WhatsApp, or process. Yeah, or process,

Annemie Tonken  28:19

right. And you're asking people, you're inviting anyone to, you know, tear you to shreds or judge you or whatever, if you're still in that soft, you know, difficult place, that you're, that's a level of vulnerability that may not be ill advised. I don't know. Yeah,

28:42

I mean, I think there's a couple of things from it. So I think that yes, like your wound is open and the level of like, vulnerability that is putting you in danger is high. But also, when you have a wound, it's often infected. It's pissy and like, when someone touches it sprays out it at them, and I feel like a lot of the time sharing from the wound is like, people trying to get the poison out of their wound, and it ends up spraying on everyone around them. And it is like, I just got slammed with that. And it's actually off putting, it's it's like that thing where like no one wants you to fondle your victim story. It's not no one wants you to like, like someone like the idea of like, like, trying to losing the word but like, like trauma, masturbation, like, like, Oh, I'm just gonna put it out there and over and over and over again, and I'll share it with the world and I'll process it in real time. And like, I don't believe that that's helping anybody, especially not the person doing the sharing. Because when you're sharing that raw wound Anessa unnecessary like no matter what it is off putting to people at a certain point, and there are there are places where we see that where it is is an off putting. But I would argue that those people have grieved that thing and processed that thing. And they probably have gotten just just barely to the side where the wound is closed, where they can share. And I think that those are the people that do vulnerability really well is the people that can, can, can write the things or say the things when they're just when that wound is just closing, rather than when it's closed, and the scar is almost gone. It's hard to tell the story properly. And when it's wide open, it's impossible to tell the story in a way that is helpful to anyone.

Annemie Tonken  30:35

Yeah, that's really interesting. It took me a long time to even acknowledge the fact that I was divorced in any sort of social media or anything like that. And I think we all have to do that on our own time. But, you know, there was a lot of feelings of failure and all that sort of thing, even though, and I say this to people a lot in all kinds of things like, treat yourself the way that you would talk to yourself the way you would talk to a friend, like give them this. And so if a friend were to say to me, I don't want to share that people will judge me whatever, I would very quickly say, oh, no, no, no, that's ridiculous. But again, I'm not perfect,

31:18

you're said and

Annemie Tonken  31:20

done it is. And so again, back to your story and your willingness to maybe operate from that very fine line of waiting for the the first bit of healing to have taken place, but then very quickly dive into sharing your story. I think it's, well, I find it inspirational and, and have always just sort of marveled at your ability to walk that line.

31:52

Had it for me, it's just always been a practice. Not always, but I guess for me, now it's a practice, it's that I make myself write every day, it doesn't mean that I will share the thing that I wrote that day. But every morning, I get up and I write, and I write before I consume anything else I write, like, right away. And so it leaves that space for the thing that healed yesterday to come out today. And maybe it didn't heal yesterday, it heals a week from now, but it'll come out the very next day. And so I have that, like I get up, my body just wakes up between like, you know, three and six. And I wake up and I write and then I often go back to bed. And like that's my routine. And because I have it, it leaves that opening for the stuff to come out when it's healed. And when it's freshly healed. But if you don't give yourself the place for that to come out, well, then of course, it's not going to come out. Right on that fine line. Yeah.

Annemie Tonken  32:48

So since this is an audience, mostly made up of photographers, talk to me a little bit about how you advise your photographer clients and talk to your photographer clients about walking that line and how their authentic self whether it's a like a pain, full transition, or whether it's just sort of who they are, how that can get incorporated into their messaging in a way that is both I'm going to, you know, help advance their their business, but also help find the right clients. Yeah,

33:27

I think that the real truth is that if you can really figure out who you actually want to take photos of, and why I don't give a shit what the photos are of I don't I really don't care if they're like, I want to only take photos of infant feet. Wicked, I can sell that if you have a good Why do you have a Why do you have a story? Do you have a reason what in that reason is usually because of something that they needed? And if they needed it? Listen, we just talked about how there's all these people, if you need something, someone else on the planet also needs that something. And yes, it may be a niche to only photograph infant feet. Sure. But like, there's this woman out there named Semak who only photographs Volvos covered in glitter, and she has a documentary and a whole thing. So I'm like, if she can do it, you can photograph whatever it is that you need to do. But you have to have a why. And if you're just doing it to make money, I don't that okay, isn't that great? You might figure it out. You might not we'll see if you're in the right place at the right time. It might all work out for you. But if you have a real why if you can connect with that, why other than like I was born and my grandmother gave me a camera. And then I learned it with my dog. And I dressed my sister's up and it was so great. And then I had my own babies and learned that I could do it for like, great. That's not a real lie. Yeah, no, if we look at people even like in the community that that we know like, I'm like examples Katrina Katrina. Floods 5200

Annemie Tonken  35:10

photo. Yeah. Katrina Williams.

35:12

She has why left right and center? Yeah, no. Cornell has wise left, right and center.

Annemie Tonken  35:20

Counting out on my neighbors feels like people.

35:25

I know these people yeah, like I just love them but like they both have wise. And the more that they I've worked with both of them. And I've seen the progression and the more they stand and they share in their why the better things go for them. Cornell just got a friggin art gallery show thing because he stood in his why. And he made art and talked about the reason why he's making his art, not because he wants to take another pretty picture. But because lives like his matter lives like is child's matter lives like because they friggin matter. And that's why he's taking photos because no one else is doing it properly and doing it justice and like, so there he is telling his story. And that is what connects Yeah. And we're just another guy being like, I'm just gonna take photos. Yeah, wouldn't matter.

Annemie Tonken  36:15

There's no story there. Well, and so you know, I'm going to bring this back to, first of all, I'm gonna link both Katrina and Cornell in the show notes so that you guys can go check out their work, because it's so great. But I wanted to tie that back to what you were talking about at the beginning, toward the beginning of our conversation when you were talking about your original website, and I almost jumped in there. And I am glad that there's this opportunity to jump in now. Because I was totally like that. And honestly, I feel like it took me a long time to get to where my website was more reflective of me and my voice and not just me looking at 100 different other websites and being like, Oh, that looks like it's a good idea. This looks like it's a good idea. And honestly, I feel like that's probably the majority of people, you know, they're getting into, they don't necessarily know anything about messaging, and copywriting, and all that sort of thing. So you put together a website, what are you going to do, you're going to look around and see what else is out there and take what you think looks good, and try and make that yours. So for those people who are kind of in that phase, who may not have stories as dramatic as Katrina, and Cornell's stories. How do you do you have sort of a we're going to talk about your IQ factors and a little bit but do you have kind of a method that you help people really deep dive on their why? And maybe that just transitions into the it factor conversation? But

37:40

yeah, it mostly my big thing is, is what is your clients, I call it your outside problem. So like the outside problem is your client needs photographs, they need a photographer, the inside problem is like what is the thing that they're not saying an email when they write and reach out to you what like, what is the thing that they're really hoping for? So for me and my clients, they were the outside problem was they had needed photos, the inside problem was that like they needed photos, where they didn't look lame and cheesy. And that then there's the stoner problem, which goes that level deeper, which is like what is the real like, the inside problem is the thing that they might say to their best friend, they like if you had enough conversation with them, you could probably like tease it out of them. Then the stoner problem is that one that's like their deep philosophical like, but Am I cool anymore? Did I lose who I am? Am I still need? Do I still matter? Or is it just about my kids being cute? Yeah. And the people that came to me were the ones that were like, but do I still matter? Does my relationship with my partner still matter? Do my hobbies and activities and the things that I like still matter? Can I pass those down to my children instead of only listening to Barney and whatever? Like they're the ones that are like listening to the Nirvana, lullabies? You know, right. And I could answer that question right away. And the first 10 seconds.

Annemie Tonken  39:12

I had the right, connection was made,

39:15

that connection is made, which was like, you know, I think my thing was was photo for grandparents or something like photos for bad families. Which is really simple, but it explained, like what it was really simply and that was when there wasn't 1000 photographers, so it or 8 million, whatever. But like, what is that thing? So you know, what, what does with Katrina? Like why does she take photos? What was her like for her? It was it when she needed those photos of her family? What was the outside problem? What was the inside problem? What is that stoner problem?

Annemie Tonken  39:58

Right?

39:58

You know, and hers is real. be dramatic. But mine was as simple as like, people just wanted to still be cool. You know, like, I just want to still be myself. I don't want to lose who I am because I had kids. Yeah, that's not dramatic. That's not like life changing. It's not like, you know, I now could probably be like, I'm the queer photographer, and I'll help trans people show themselves, but like, I could do a whole bunch of dramatic things now, but I didn't at the time, I just wanted to show that like, because I had kids didn't mean that I had to be this like, sell out boring. version of a mom that I didn't want to be. Yeah, partially because I didn't want to be a mom. But you know. But I only hired people that made me look like me. All the photos I have of myself that I like of photographers that I've hired. Even though I was living as a woman, I look back at the photos. And I'm like, oh, but those still look like me. Yeah, still myself in them.

Annemie Tonken  41:02

Yeah, so it's interesting. It's almost flipping that vulnerability and that authenticity on its head, if you're willing to get vulnerable and authentic with yourself and recognize what your inside problem and your stoner problems are, you're probably that's your

41:20

Yeah, and usually, it's not what they are, it's what they were, he had to come through the other side of it to get it's like speaking from the wound, I was gonna say, the wound, it's the same thing, if you are owner problems, and outside problems are still active, you're not ready to fix them for anybody else. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  41:39

interesting. You know, it's that 10% edge, right? I feel like we all teach and learn best from my ex husband was a psychology he was the second is a psychologist and he talked about I remember when he was in grad school, he was learning about the zone of proximal development, which is a really fancy way of saying, You don't, you know, if I were to go to some master chef to learn to cook, it would be overwhelming, they would be frustrated, I would be frustrated. Whereas if I went and found somebody who was 10%, better than me, it would be a really good match. Because I could learn, you know, they would have just been where I am. So

42:22

it is it's being a step ahead of your clients, but it doesn't have to be that many steps. Yeah. Right, especially when you're starting out? Because the whole point is that, like you're figuring out who you are, and starting out and whatever, but totally, and

Annemie Tonken  42:35

I think, you know, and I talk a lot about the fact that photography can be something for some people, that is a really long range career, a long term, multi decade career, but it's, it's harder and harder to achieve that given the the larger numbers of photographers who are out there, because I do think that there is something to be said for. Clients are often looking for someone who is kind of in that 10%, proximal, you know, like I a lot of people hire me to shoot their newborns and little kids, but the, the older my kids get, the more removed I feel from that stage. And, and I'm finding that more and more challenging to, to navigate over over time. So tell me a little bit. Or tell us a little bit about what it is now that you're not a photographer that you do and what you offer. Yeah,

43:28

so I sort of morphed from photographer to coaching photographers, because I realized that I didn't actually care about the photography, I really loved the like thrill of the chase. Like, I really love to book the client. And then I was like, Oh, shit, now I have to go do these photos and edit it. And I have to like, show up and like deliver the stuff. And then I like that I get to sell things again. And it'll be great. Yeah. And I realized that like, Oh, I was really stealing great clients, from really wonderful people who really just wanted to make a living with their art, and that I could help them make a living from their art and not take their clients, you see. So I switched and I started coaching photographers, and then I started helping them with websites. And then I started coaching other people, and then it just sort of has more. And now I work with people all over the world in a bunch of different ways. And they all start sort of within it factor, which is basically like a 90 minute deep dive into your business. It gives everyone sort of a different thing, which is like a hard way to sell something. I'm like a really bad salesperson on it. Because I'm like, I don't know, I don't know what you're gonna get. It just depends on what you need. Like, you know, on your end factor, exactly. It depends on where you are in your business. It depends on how authentic you're currently living, and how authentically you're currently presenting yourself online. There are a lot of people where I'm like, Listen, I've spent 20 minutes with you and I can feel like this is not you. This has to go in the garbage. It will never work like this. You're gonna hate hearing that. But it won't work like this, you have to make like I can see clear as day that that's not who you are. You're this person over here. And they do it. And then they're like, Oh, my goodness, thank you so much. You've saved everything. You fix it all. And I'm like, Actually, I didn't you had to do the brave thing about shaming yourself. But it's about helping someone see the label on them. Like, it's like, you can't see the label from inside the gym, the jar, you're like, I'm great jelly, but I don't know, I just know, I'm purple. And like, what am I even? I don't know, do I go on toast? Or do I go on cheese? Like, I you know, I don't? Right. I don't know what to do with that. Whereas from outside, I can very easily see that like, oh, you're a grape jelly, Euro. Great. And a donut great on toast. Great on this. But your real passion is to that, like, you know, whatever that is. We can't see it for ourselves. I have a coach. It's you know, it's that's the whole point is that someone else has to help us see our, our greatness.

Annemie Tonken  46:00

Yeah. And I think it's so especially as solopreneurs We do so many things, it is so easy to neglect the forest for the trees. And the forest really is like, what is it you're selling here? And don't say photos? Right? Because there is I mean, there's so much more to it than that. And if you I do think that the people who are the most successful right out of the gate, I mean, there's a certain amount of tenacity that's required, if you want to be in this for the long haul. But

46:35

you have to have a certain mentality I think, as an art, you have to have an entrepreneurial spirit in some way, I think to be sure, but at this, but

Annemie Tonken  46:43

but I think that the people who kind of you look and you're like, wow, have weird, they just came out of nowhere, and like hit it right away. That was me snapping my fingers is it are the people who are able to sort of harness they more than anything else, like forget everything else they have figured out like who they are and who they serve, and they just go after that. Right away. And that yeah, it because that it resonates with people, that's awesome.

47:14

And I would say they go after it right away. And they also honestly, they have someone that they work with. And whether that is me whether that is someone else, whether that is whatever, especially if you're going from having a job to being a self employed person, the split of like, what are my responsibilities every week? What do I like? Am I doing well? Am I not doing well? Because financially in the first three to five years of your business, you cannot judge based on whether you're making money, you're not right, whether you're doing well at what you do. That's just facts. And so who's giving you a review, who's helping you to celebrate your little victories and not just move the bar on yourself over and over and over again, who's helping you stay on the right path? Instead of just being like, crap, there was something shiny over there. And I thought it was cool, but it wasn't and I lost three months of momentum. Yeah, Who's stopping you from doing that? Because everyone else is doing that, even though it doesn't line up with who you are? Yeah. Who's and it's, you know, it doesn't even like, depending on where you are in your business, a different level of coach I think is, is important. I will often say to people, like don't come to me if you haven't started your business yet. Um, you're not ready for me yet. I'm the person that you come to when you're like, I started it. I figured it out. It's sort of working, but it's not actually working. Now, I'm ready, like I but I kind of know like, Don't come to me, when you don't have a website, you don't know what you're doing. And you have no proof of concept. Like that's a waste of your money.

Annemie Tonken  48:42

So tell me a story of one of your, one of your best it factors or one of your, like most successful conversation, 90 minute conversations.

48:53

I mean, I have a guy that literally I started working with. And he his average billing was $1,000 a month. And he now bills 40s he built 47 grand last month and is this 42 Five? Wow, I feel great about that guy. Like, I'm like he is my success story. I'm like, Whoa, you're good. I love you. But like he's just a guy that was willing to listen which is not common in the like, the guy world if I'm just going to be honest. He had had his like, big like midlife crisis and was like I'm ready to live like He he was ready to do the work. He was ready to be authentic. He was ready to put himself forward and not hide and he was ready to say the uncomfortable things and because he because he's a guy and he doesn't have any of that like, well, I'll just mind fuck it for six months before I do it. He just did it. And it was like it wasn't perfect, but every time I gave him mattacks He was like, great, I can go do that thing. And he just did it every time. Even if it was only 80% of what I wanted him to do he did it. And then we could fix that last bit. Yeah. And I think that the big thing that we often do as photographers is we something doesn't work, or it doesn't work as fast as we want it to. And then we breathe, and we panic, and we self sabotage ourselves, because we're all artists. And so we're like, oh, it's because I'm not any good. And it's because no one likes my work. And I must be a loser. And I bla, and then we just, like lose three to six months of momentum, because we didn't just do the next thing. Yeah. Whereas the clients that I have, that are super successful are the ones that are like, Okay, I'm just gonna go do it, and they get out of their own way. You know,

Annemie Tonken  50:46

I credit my success in this industry, so much to the fact that when I entered it, I had no business framework whatsoever, and therefore, I had no ego for it, which is saying something because I had plenty of like, Oh, I know better than you, and

51:05

in a lot of other places.

Annemie Tonken  51:06

But in this one space, I was like, I have no idea what I'm doing. And so I would just find mentors. And basically say, you know, I need to figure out what it is that they're doing. And I paid some of them. And some of them were, you know, more casual than that. And I but I took what they told me pretty much as just gospel and like would go implement it and try it for a period of time. And it was super funny. So back to the Creative Live thing. Bambi Cantrell was the person whose class that I went and took live and, and years later, I mean, I'm gonna say three or four or five years later, when I was not, I mean, I had never really stayed in touch with her or anything. And she called me out of the blue. And it she wanted to know, she had seen letterpress cards that I have had me doesn't matter. She calls me about something trivial on the side, and we chatted for 15 minutes. And in the course of the conversation, she said, I'm so glad to see that you're still in business. I you know, this is a really hard business these days, and a lot of people don't stay in business. What do you credit? You know, how, what, why, why do you think that happened, and she was one of the people that I have always credited, even though like, our styles are super

52:32

different. She does like very different work than what you do, but for sure, learn from her.

Annemie Tonken  52:38

But I remember I mean, I was such a brand new photographer, when I went and took that class and in a not in the class, but on the sidelines, like when we weren't filming, we were chatting, and I was sort of telling her my story. And she was like, well, keep your day job. Until I mean, which is never nobody wants to ever hear that right? But um, but she said, you're in a really great position because you have income. Don't go under selling undervaluing your photography, work, build that business up to where you want to be want it to be before you rely on it for money. And that was so important and empowering. And so anyway, I told her that I said, Well, you gave me this really great advice. And she said, No, but the great thing is you took the advice. Right? So true. I mean, it's like you can give people advice until you're blue in the face. And they if they choose to ignore it, because it's not what they want to be doing or whatever, you can't take responsibility for them what happens? So yeah,

53:36

it's interesting that you also mentioned that Bambi was like, I'm glad to see you're still in business, because I just thought about the people that I was in Creative Live with. And I think that Sarah and Dubai may still have a studio, but I'm not entirely sure. But the other three people that were in my thing, are not photographers in any way, shape, or form. And then there's me who is not a photographer, but I just happen to still work with some photographers, and really think like, interesting thing that like, we have we run Creative Live, and we're just none of us are photographers anymore.

Annemie Tonken  54:09

Yeah. Well, it's it. I mean, the thing is, we're all creatives, right? And whether whether that ends up manifesting forever in photography, I'm, you know, really enjoying podcasting, and teaching as a creative outlet. I'm still photographing. But I think being open minded and open hearted about the path that you're on in the fact that we are all in this constant state of change, which in some ways is like that's par for the course for us creatives. Like anyway. Well, that is, that's all super great. And I, before I say goodbye to you, I want you to let our listeners know where they can find you and where they can connect with you and where they can find out more about these factors that are so amazing. Yeah,

54:59

so the place So I hang up the most is on Instagram because I am a millennial on the cusp okay just and so I'm there a lot I'd love to hang out with you on Instagram What's up friends at Epic danger. And then you can find the factors either on Epic danger.com Or on Nick North Dakota. And you can follow along on YouTube with our YouTube channel now which is beautiful families project or if you just go to any of our websites or places you can find it there but we are chronicling our our move. Oh, yeah. So I think I just edited it our and uploaded are like eight days until the moving truck comes video. So exciting times.

Annemie Tonken  55:45

I'm sending you all the good vibes, as they say down here in the south. Bless your heart. Oh, Nick, it is always such an extraordinary pleasure. Thank you for spending time with me today.

55:59

Thanks for having me.

Annemie Tonken  56:02

Outro:

Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you liked the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review on iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.