Dr. David Burke: [00:00:00] I came across this quote, I think back in seminary and I've always held onto it and probably quoted it to a bunch of college students when I work with them is it's the one from Frederick Beachner. And it says that your passion, your vocation, your calling in life is where your deepest gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.
[00:00:19] So it's where your deepest gladness and the world's deep hunger meets. So it's not just about what makes you glad, but there's also a deep hunger that exists in the world. And those two things come together and that's often conform your calling. So it I think that's, for me, has always been maybe a filter by which to ask people to think about their past.
[00:00:41]This
[00:00:41] Jake: [00:00:41] is the interesting lives of normal people. This is a particularly fun episode for me because we talk with David Burke, a pastor at a church in Sacramento, California, but he's also a former boss and a long-time mentor and friend. I've had a lot of conversations with David over the years, but to be honest, we usually just talk about me, the whole mentor thing.
[00:01:00] But one thing I love about doing this podcast is that we get to put other people in the hot seat. I got to hear about his life growing up with a dad who was an atheist and a professor of philosophy at the university of Washington. We also talk about his journey of change, and we talk about one of his passion projects supporting his wife's art business, which is really refreshing in a culture where there's a lot of misogynistic Christian leaders.
[00:01:23] David also talks about past passion projects that have succeeded and failed and what he's learned from those experiences. We also in the conversation when he gives a glimpse into what the church could and should. If there's a word that sums up this conversation for me, it's refreshing. It was refreshing to be reminded that there are still good Christian leaders.
[00:01:43] And frankly, it was just refreshing just to connect with David. Again, I hope it's as refreshing to you as it was for me.
[00:01:50]Dr. David Burke: [00:01:50] David
[00:01:51] Jake: [00:01:51] Burke, a pastor, a good friend. Welcome to the show, David.
[00:01:56] Dr. David Burke: [00:01:56] Thank you. Thanks for having me. It's awesome to be with you guys.
[00:01:59] Jake: [00:01:59] Yeah, this is as like we are endeavoring to make a podcast, making something that is useful and just, giving people information and inspiration to do something.
[00:02:08]Powerful and meaningful with their life. David and I are, I've known David for a long time, used to work for him in a ministry out in Tennessee, his, when he was a college pastor. But David want to just give us a little bit more of a background on who you are how you got to Sacramento, where you're living now.
[00:02:20]Just give us a little bit of a overview of, fast or slow as you want of your life.
[00:02:24]Dr. David Burke: [00:02:24] Yeah. So I grew up in Seattle, Washington was that son of a university professor and an atheist for a good chunk of my life, which I always think is important to include in thinking about them becoming a pastor.
[00:02:34] But fast forward went to a small college in California became a follower of Christ. When I was about 16 years old tried to make a faith journey happened on my own for several years. Graduated from college and started volunteering in a ministry in Seattle. And from that got exposed to administer another ministry in Boulder, Colorado ended up going to seminary New Jersey, Princeton, theological seminary, and the time that I think I had growing up as a university kid, And having volunteered with some college students.
[00:03:06]When I was right out of college really gave me a heart for that age group, because I think like what you're talking about here, that on your podcast, that that 18 to 22 year range of people's lives are making huge decisions about. Who they're going to be with some of them for the rest of their lives, what they're gonna study, what they're gonna prepare for and all that.
[00:03:24]Fast forward, finished seminary. And my first call, my first job was to this college ministry called, which ended up being called the house and at university ministries in Chattanooga, Tennessee, which is where Jake and I met. And I just made this incredible hire when I decided to call him, it was just like incredible.
[00:03:40]The ministry has never been the same.
[00:03:41]
[00:03:41] Holdeman: [00:03:41] I believe that cause I road tripped out to Chattanooga with them. So I know exactly who Jake was right before that.
[00:03:47] Dr. David Burke: [00:03:47] Yeah risky. Huh?
[00:03:50] Jake: [00:03:50] It was like a prodigal son just minus the sun and prodigal part. But let's just be honest, like interns are important.
[00:03:56]As I thought, when I went into that job, some
[00:03:58] Dr. David Burke: [00:03:58] of them think they are. Yeah.
[00:03:59]Holdeman: [00:03:59] How was it to you? You covered a lot of ground there up until that job between Seattle and California and New Jersey, and then starting your college ministry in Chattanooga, was that easy? Was that hard? Just, obviously very different kinds of cultures and all those different.
[00:04:16] Dr. David Burke: [00:04:16] The Southeast is a whole different kind of culture. And most people there grow up in, they call it the Bible belt and some people wouldn't call Chattanooga the buckle of the Bible belt. And it's really a central part of that whole culture. So I guess the best illustration I always would use with people.
[00:04:32] And I try to explain to people where I live now it's not uncommon there to ask somebody, in our age range, what do you do for a living? And then your second question is where do you go to church? That's just part of the culture that exists out there. And it was, I think it was really interesting for us.
[00:04:49] We hired a lot of interns from these kind of sister ministries of Seattle and Boulder that did not grow up in that culture. And for college students that grew up in Tennessee to see these people that had learned how to articulate and communicate about their. In environments where it wasn't, the norm was refreshing.
[00:05:08]But the south was really a pretty interesting, I felt at times a little bit I don't want to say this the right way, but like a missionary always studying the culture because it was so vastly different than any other place that I'd ever lived. So there was a lot if I could speak boldly about it is there's a lot of apathy, frankly, about Christianity or following Christ, follow the person of Jesus.
[00:05:28] Like it was common for us to run into students and this, oh yeah, I'm a Christian. And they lived in environments where they might be their identity, but it didn't impact what they did on a daily basis.
[00:05:41] Holdeman: [00:05:41] It was more of a resume item than a man than a passion or something. Yeah.
[00:05:45] Jake: [00:05:45] I do want to point out that I feel like you covered a lot of ground there, fairly efficient. You don't by chance, publicly speak on a regular basis to David.
[00:05:54] Dr. David Burke: [00:05:54] Yes, I do. So now if you're wanting to build a bridge to the current after 16 years of living in Chattanooga I was called to to be a pastor at a church here called Fremont Presbyterian church in Sacramento.
[00:06:06] And it was a draw to me because it sits one block away from a major university Sacramento state university, which is about 30,000 students. And like I said, I've always loved university communities and kind of the questions and culture that brings. And Fremont felt like a great fit part of it Is that it's had a long history of of a people group in Ethiopia.
[00:06:28] And I mentioned that because my wife and I adopted twins from Ethiopia now 10, 10 years ago. So we've had a heart for that country and this church has a heart for that country. And it also has a heart for the university. So those things merged together in my life and God's call and there, they took a chance on a guy that never been a pastor of a local church before
[00:06:47] Jake: [00:06:47] I do, before we actually get into, I wasn't actually intending to try to go there.
[00:06:51] I do want to talk about obviously your current position at all. But something that I feel like I maybe have never asked to talk to you about before is really just the environment of growing up in a university. Your pastor, your father being a university professor atheist, even the environment that you lived in, because it was interesting as like you're for a long time been, if I'm honest, just a role model to me and a mentor in a lot of ways.
[00:07:11] And so it was funny, like when I moved to Seattle actually going to your old neighborhood and being like, oh, this is where David grew up. This is, and just thinking about someone who I respect so much and just thinking about this is his, this is where so many experiences happen. And not that your neighborhood, I'm sure it's so different now than when you grew up, because Seattle has just completely transformed in the last few years.
[00:07:31] Nothing. Microsoft. But I do think it's, I do think it's interesting just to think about what was that environment like as a kid, not even just being close to the university where you grew up, but what was it actually like being so ingrained in a scholarly environment or was it a scholarly environment that you grew up in?
[00:07:47] Like what was kind of day to day, like interaction with your dad? Again, if you're okay with it, I don't think I've talked to you much about your dad.
[00:07:52] Dr. David Burke: [00:07:52] Good. That's good. But yeah, to answer one of the questions in there. I still remember as a kid, I have an older brother who's four years older than me and dinner conversations revolved around it was a philosophy professor.
[00:08:05] So rationality, a reason and intellect, and being able to reason your way through life was one of the highest values that I remember as a kid, you needed to be able to argue your point even at the dinner table. Intellectual pursuits would bring you, I remember just thinking and being told and either word.
[00:08:26] What I remember picking up from my parents. It's Hey, you'd have to do well in school because if you do well in school, then you'll go to a good college. You can go to a good college, then you'll get a good job. And if you have a good job, then you'll have a good life. That's, that was just how it was going to be.
[00:08:39]And ironically, we lived down the street from a Lutheran church, and I remember as as a kid and my dad laughing, oh, there goes crazy Lutherans. And I remember thinking that faith was intellectually weak. It was intellectually missing Christians were people that needed some sort of crutch to lean on.
[00:08:55] So I do remember a lot of that as a kid. One of your other questions in there was, did my dad, was my dad still alive? My dad passed away in 2008 and I actually brought him into the decision-making process on where to go to seminary. I felt like I wanted to respect him. He had colleagues that had actually gone to seminary in the philosophy department.
[00:09:14] So he counseled me on some of that. So yeah he He did. We had interesting discussions about faith towards the end of his life. When I went out to go to care for him after a surgery we had a lot, I remember him saying that the idea of faith having faith in something was intellectually fascinating to him.
[00:09:31] That was what he said. The idea of having faith was intellectually fascinating. He couldn't get himself there, but he found it interesting what it did for people. And he himself had grown up Catholic and I think tanked all that when he went to college in the sixties. But so he knew.
[00:09:46] Some of it, but I think dismissed it completely. How was
[00:09:50] Holdeman: [00:09:50] it, it sounds like you went a different path than maybe he would've had for you with your career. How did that play out making your own choices? Where was, I'm curious for in your own mind, what did you think would happen?
[00:10:02] And then what actually did happen there? Yeah.
[00:10:05]Dr. David Burke: [00:10:05] I'll give my, both my mom and dad, a lot of respect because they didn't push some parents say, Hey, you got it, you got to be this, our family does this or whatever. And I th when I started making those choices, they never really said, no, you can't do that.
[00:10:21] Or anything like that. Now they were concerned about some things, obviously. I think on one level, my dad was concerned that I was devoting my life. And he would say my intellect to something that he found always suspect and questioned, but he never. He always looked at some of the good things that we would do in ministry, whether it be helping a impoverished community or those kinds of counseling students, he always would try to focus on the good things there, but he never really expressed the disappointment in what I chose to do.
[00:10:50] And I think that's, I give him a tremendous amount of respect. And I'm glad about that.
[00:10:56] Fin: [00:10:56] That w when you ultimately came to faith about hyper rationality leads you into any certain directions, with like apologetics or being, sometimes there are people who are so heady and intellectual and even.
[00:11:07]Kinda like jerks for Jesus kind of thing, where they're going to they're going to pound you with these intellectual, these philosophical points until, people either quit or call them an a-hole and walk off. Did you find yourself not that, that was you, but maybe given, that sort of rationality, you have to argue your point was that.
[00:11:25] Dr. David Burke: [00:11:25] Yeah, that's a great question. I D I, I would like to say no, and this is what popped into my mind while you were asking that question. I remember as a 16 year old, and there's a long story about how faith became real for me. And it had a lot to do with the fact that I did not see my dad living out what he preached.
[00:11:42] In other words, like. He didn't have a resource to deal with the pain that he was experiencing, ended up in a divorce with my mom and he to be Frank he turned to alcohol and I watched that when my older brother was away from college. And I remember watching that and go, wait a minute, here's this man that's preached rationality to me.
[00:12:02] And yet he's choosing to deal with the pain of his life and something very irrational, which led to a lot of irrational behavior. And that made me start asking some questions about whether what he said was real. Just to condense that thought somebody handed me a Gideon's Bible. I started reading it and it was way different than what I thought it.
[00:12:20] And I was introduced to the Bible through the Psalms, and that's a really interesting place to start reading it about God. And it spoke to where I was at the time. But to get back to your question about apologetics, I remember this, after making a commitment and believing that Jesus was real.
[00:12:36] I'm going to remembered my dad, right? 16 year old names, he's got a PhD. Right. And so I remember like talking to him about the existence of God and all these Arctic arguments and stuff like that. And he, it was very paid. He listened. He goes, that argument's pretty good, but if you really want a better argument, it's this, and this.
[00:12:50] And then he poked holes and all that. And I just remember my head exploding and going, oh, that was a big mistake. So I think one of my first experiences at trying to be an apologetics guy was it was a miserable failure. And I also came to realize that in reading some of my dad was a Marxist philosopher and reading some of his stuff that one of his favorite words was esoteric, which is it's reserved for a few, and I also started to realize the majority of people don't live in that world don't live in that world.
[00:13:19]Like you said, like apologetics is important and I've always been drawn to Christian thinkers that have a sharp intellect and can reason and write beautifully and eloquently about. It's got to reach people. It's got to reach as many people as you can. You gotta be able to write in a way or explain yourself in a way that makes sense to somebody.
[00:13:40] And isn't so like isolated and my dad's word esoteric is, it's just, it's,
[00:13:44] Jake: [00:13:44] it's reserved for a few. I want to get back to modern day or current day what you're doing now. You mentioned the church in Sacramento. And some of the things that's passionate about, reaching people at Sacramento state, is that the right school?
[00:13:56] So that's right. Yep. And also Ethiopia is a country in generally some of those things really. So maybe just talk a little bit about the congregation itself, like the types of people that you have that actually attend. What is your experience been like? At this, I want to say new church, but you've been there, I guess a while.
[00:14:11]Dr. David Burke: [00:14:11] Here's the bio on Fremont. It's 150 year old church. It was actually started the history says by a couple of college age people 150 years ago that we're seeing a lot of kids. This was like gold rush time and seen a lot of kids run around the neighborhood and they actually started a Sunday school.
[00:14:26] So Fremont started from those roots, which I think is interesting and started downtown moved its way out. We're in, what's called east Sacramento. And it was intentionally planted there in the 1960s by some elders when they discovered that the university was going to go there.
[00:14:40] So they intentionally wanted to be the church for the university. And for a long time Fremont was the who's who of Sacramento, I would say now that we still have some of those folks in our midst, but that's not what we're known for. Really the people of Fremont. There's a lot of folks, there's a lot of healthcare, a lot of folks that worked for the state entrepreneurs students single moms, single dads.
[00:15:05]And so it's pretty wide variety. And we have we we, our church with I feel at times that I'm pastoring two churches. And what I mean is this is that we have a traditional service that meets in our 1960 sanctuary with super high cathedral kind of ceilings. And I often wear a robe and we have a choir and an Oregon, and then I change clothes and I wear, golf shirt and jeans and, bands or something.
[00:15:29] And I go preach in a gym with a contemporary band and people come as they are. And so it's two very different views almost of what the. Is about maybe even different views of what I need to be and what the church should be. A lot of folks that remember when Fremont was something and a lot of people that are like not, I just want to bring my kids here and y'all have great, ministry to them.
[00:15:49] We do a lot of things in the community. We run a basketball league and a partnership with a public elementary school, about five miles away from us that my wife actually is the art teacher at the school. And this school is they have title one where you are. Is that a federal thing? A title one school usually means like a lower socioeconomic or, okay.
[00:16:10]The elementary school where she works as a, is a title one school and our church provides a grant so that they can have an art teacher. And my wife is the art teacher. So Fremont has had this cool history of really starting partnerships with people group internationally and at school locally.
[00:16:26] And I think that's what it's known for is doing some great things in the neighborhood.
[00:16:31] Jake: [00:16:31] So you what are some successful passion projects you've seen from people specifically in mid-life and you answered it, it looks like your wife, Kelsey at round, this idea of being an artist, can you expand on what that project looks like and what.
[00:16:44] Dr. David Burke: [00:16:44] Yeah, I, I asked her if it would be okay, she goes, yeah, absolutely. Because I get to live with it, not with it, but I get to live with seeing this passion project come to life. Several years ago for Christmas, it was Christmas. I gave her first set of pastels and she loved it.
[00:17:00] She's always been artistic and have been able to draw and paint and all this kind of stuff. But I gave her a first set of pastels and she just has fallen and she has a gift for it. Does a lot of landscapes and commissions and things like that. We took one of her are the bedrooms in our house and we turned it into her studio.
[00:17:14]And then from, there was a downtown gallery that, that she got to know the owner of, and they loved your work so much that. Totally put all of her works in it for, I think, a month in the summer. And so I'm watching her discover how to be an entrepreneur. I wouldn't call my wife midlife.
[00:17:30] That would be, it would be bad marriage advice right there to call your wife. But, I'm 50 and she's a few years younger than me, but she's been, we have six kids and our youngest is in third grade and so mostly. Her life. Our lives together has been she's had babies at home and full time mom and has been doing, speaking and writing on the side.
[00:17:53]But the art is really started to take off. So she, even tonight was uploading videos YouTube online art lessons for this elementary school where she works and. So she's doing speaking and writing painting and teaching altogether. So it's the season of life where she has a little bit more margin and together we try to work out times where I have to study or time she's got to do creative work.
[00:18:18]And it's fun to watch her really. Live into something that she's been gifted to do and a passionate about, and obviously is meeting a need for people. Cool. That's really cool.
[00:18:28] Holdeman: [00:18:28] How does, how does it feel to have input? You understood a little bit about this passion, but to have contributed to your partner really discovering this net new level of passion around this with the pastels.
[00:18:39]What, tell me about that and what that feels like to have contributed
[00:18:43] Dr. David Burke: [00:18:43] in that way. I joke at it, we do these art showings and stuff like that. And I always tell her on the way I said, Hey, I'm going to tell everybody that I'm the one that got you the first set of pastels. And I never do, but it's it's really a beautiful thing to see someone that you love.
[00:18:56]That's gifted and she just comes alive when she went and to see the joy. We have the chance when people come over and pick up their painting to see the look on their face. And sometimes it's a commission of a spot that is meaningful. Like one that she just did with the wildfires out here, there was a home that was just destroyed that had been in a family's home families in a family for about four generations.
[00:19:19] And she did a painting. And to give that to that family is just it's priceless. I think it's fun for me. It was, I was putting up shelves, just a couple of weekends. So I joke with her. I said, Hey, you've got to get this thing off the ground so I can quit. And I'll just carry your art stuff around it, and carry your books around when you write the book and I'll be your book, table guy, when she starts, she's also really gifted teacher and speaker.
[00:19:40] And she does a lot of women's ministry stuff here in our church. And so I just always say, Hey, you write your book. She's actually is writing one. You write your book and I'll just carry your
[00:19:48] Jake: [00:19:48] books. One thing that I've, that I think is really cool about this answer of what are some successful passion projects you've seen, which is, I think that, myself you're definitely a few years ahead of, having babies.
[00:20:00]But as Babies and sleep and, trying to communicate with kids that don't know how to talk. It's exhausting. It's, everything's messy not to say that having six kids even being older is not messy, but it's definitely a unique part of time when you have toddlers and babies.
[00:20:12]And so much of your time is just spent on, okay. We woke up, I can't wait till we get to go back to bed. Okay, we have this huge thing in between the two sleeps that we call life and we got to just get from one point a to point B. And so often we're focused on just making it to the end of the day, making it till bedtime so we can finally relax.
[00:20:28]But then like for me, like I look at. This podcast or wanting to do something meaningful and searching for something that is searching for something that is meaningful. That make sense that I think I can actually contribute. But I feel like a lot of times we forget, especially with, my wife is a stay at home mom too.
[00:20:44] You forget that. Selfishly, I just get, we get wrapped up so often in am I happy? Am I doing what I'm passionate about? And actually getting to see your wife who really has been, whose job in life is just being a mom, which I know they enjoy obviously, but they have things and desires and passions.
[00:21:01] They have loves of other things and hobbies and talents that they want to express. And actually getting to see that come to life must be incredibly satisfying. Even more so than finding something for yourself, I would
[00:21:10] Dr. David Burke: [00:21:10] imagine. Yeah. Yeah, it is. It is. And I don't think she'd mind me saying that, it was fun to be, her chief encourager or cheerleader because our fine.
[00:21:23] Is it's so subjective that it's maybe hard to believe and she's never taken a class. So she doesn't have a degree or any of that. So she'd always would be saying, oh, I don't even, I don't even know what I'm doing. I'm just painting. And yet it was always received well, but it wasn't until, I would say maybe the last year that she's been able to say, no, I'm an artist.
[00:21:42] But before that, like it had to be me or other people go you're an artist look, and, being able to show somebody and, I'd like to I'll make it sound like bragging, but she was away speaking, I think, on a women's retreat or something. And that was the weekend. I chose to totally turn this room into a studio and I cleaned it out and bought a and R desk.
[00:22:03] And I put Kelsey Burke created, which is the name of her website, on it. And she still talks about that. That was a real. Like a vote of confidence to say, yeah, you can do this and I want to support you.
[00:22:15]Holdeman: [00:22:15] That's a great story of having helped someone deal with that imposter syndrome concept, that we all struggle with in especially trying to tackle a passion outside of our careers. Cause something about showing up Monday through Friday. Eight hours a day makes it feel official and everything else feels like we're imposters.
[00:22:34] Dr. David Burke: [00:22:34] Yeah. That's a great phrase. And I think the other thing, going back to what you were saying, Jake, about about kind of moms, especially dads, too, that, that give up something of their identity for a season of life when kids are little, but especially when I, I hear all these stories, my wife has been doing this women's ministry at our church.
[00:22:54] And some of the women talk honestly about, they've got law degrees, design degrees they were entrepreneurs, they had their own business and then they had kids and all that gets put on hold. And that's a really tough shift to shift, to give up something that you love and what you wonder, whether you're ever going to get to do it again.
[00:23:12]And her getting to walk some of these younger moms through that has been really fun to see.
[00:23:18] Jake: [00:23:18] It really makes you wonder why we're interviewing you and Kelsey, just, no, I
[00:23:23] Dr. David Burke: [00:23:23] know, I know she's right. She's right there.
[00:23:28] Jake: [00:23:28] We skipped over
[00:23:30] Dr. David Burke: [00:23:30] you. You
[00:23:30] Holdeman: [00:23:30] said Ethiopia and college students are passions of yours and that helped lead you to making the choice to take the risk, to move back across the country to take this job at Fremont.
[00:23:42] But I am curious about the college student passion and the Ethiopia passion. And how did you get to that,
[00:23:49] Dr. David Burke: [00:23:49] that place? Yeah. So I guess I'll start with the Ethiopia one first. So you know, a lot of times, I've never done anything like this, but when I say, oh, we have six kids what's behind that story is that we actually had a lot of difficulty getting pre.
[00:24:03] Lost the child in pregnancy. And for a season, we thought that adoption would be maybe one of the only ways that we would have children. We did have a child, our oldest son, Hudson is now 19 Jake, if you can believe that is 19 years old. And but we had a season where we really were looking at adoption.
[00:24:22] And so I'll tell you the story, because I think it speaks to some other passions that might come out later. So I remember we went to an adoption agency in Chattanooga and they handed us two notebooks. This was like an introductory kind of thing, just to explain the process. And I still remember they handed a student notebooks and one was pretty thin and one was pretty thick and w opened up and the thin one were all of the Caucasian babies.
[00:24:51] And there were not that many. That were available for adoption. And to that, that said, yeah, the waiting lists time for a Caucasian baby would be about I think they said something like two years and then it, and we said what's this other notebook. I know no book, we're black and biracial babies, tons of all ages.
[00:25:16] And they said in the waiting time, there is about six to nine months. And I remember that, that situation going, wow, there's a sad reality there. And that, that became, I think that was one of our first thoughts for us about entering into adopting a child from a different culture or a different race.
[00:25:35]Jake, were you on staff when we went then to, I think you were, when we went to the Willow Creek conference where you were born. Yeah, I remember
[00:25:45] Jake: [00:25:45] that.
[00:25:45] Dr. David Burke: [00:25:45] Yep. Is there any spoke about Africa that Kelsey and I still talk about that as being one of the places where Ethiopia got on our radar, because we learned it at point the number of orphans that were in the Ethiopia.
[00:26:00]Fast, forwards it was a longer process. We started reading New York times bestseller books about Ethiopia and the situation there, whether it was not just children that were orphaned because of aids, but famine, civil war all kinds of things. And our heart just was tugged for that country.
[00:26:18] I can't explain it really. We adopted our twins, their names are Simone and justice. And we brought them home when they were 18 months old and they're, they turned 11 this past February. And so to tie in the call, the Fremont it was really, people throw this around a lot, but I'm just going to say it was one of those God things where God only knew the elements of my story.
[00:26:42] And then when I see this description and I still remember the first few lines were like Fremont Presbyterian church is looking for a senior pastor to preach and teach and shepherd the staff. And that was something that some people that I've been working with for say, Hey, those are who you are.
[00:26:57] And then it said, we sit at the gate of Sacramento state university. We've had a 20 year partnership with Ethiopia and we run this community basketball program. That was all like in the first few sentences. And as Jake could attest there was the college element. I always wanted to work for a university church, the Ethiopia piece.
[00:27:15] And then I was accused of playing an enormous amount of basketball with college students when I live in Chattanooga. So here was this whole thing of the description of. We're a block away from the universe. We have a partnership with Ethiopia Ethiopian. We run a basketball book. It's that's the top three thing.
[00:27:33] Holdeman: [00:27:33] I believe this is true. Jake playing basketball. Chattanooga is where, I know that's where you tore your ACL, but also that's where you learned your athletes.
[00:27:40]Jake: [00:27:40] That's where I was running. My parents came to visit and I was just playing intermural football. And then I was just running on the field and they're like, wow, we didn't know.
[00:27:47] You could run so fast. Wow, like it's fast. I could run. But
[00:27:51] Holdeman: [00:27:51] I think I remember you talking about going out there and playing pickup basketball and discovering you were better at basketball. Then here self identity was about you as a basketball player. And it was out in Chattanooga is where you started to realize that you'd always compared yourself to your older brothers.
[00:28:06] And hadn't really allowed yourself to discover if you were athletic
[00:28:10] Jake: [00:28:10] yourself. Yeah. It's where I discovered my inner Dennis Rodman. Just go get that
[00:28:13] Dr. David Burke: [00:28:13] ball. There was a little of that in you. And then there was some blindness minus the nose ring and tattoos
[00:28:22] Jake: [00:28:22] included
[00:28:22] Holdeman: [00:28:22] on the college student ashen front.
[00:28:24] Sorry, go ahead, Finn. Yeah,
[00:28:26] Fin: [00:28:26] I just said Vegas included though.
[00:28:30] Dr. David Burke: [00:28:30] That's a Vegas.
[00:28:31]Holdeman: [00:28:31] That's the last dance reference?
[00:28:33]Jake: [00:28:33] So
[00:28:33] Fin: [00:28:33] then you've seen in the passion projects, you've seen whether that's with your wife or any number of things that have happened in your ministry or church or wherever, what makes these passion projects soar and what makes them,
[00:28:47] Dr. David Burke: [00:28:47] I, I think when I look at some of the things of me trying to cast vision, but I also see this with others as well that sometimes the folks that have vision or ideas are not the ones that, that can incrementally bring about the changes that are needed to make that vision happen.
[00:29:04] Like you need new good partners, you need a good team. I was talking to the guy that, that I worked with for 10 years and at the house of Chattanooga, Jason, that Jake also worked with, who's now the director of the house. And I remember talking to him just this past year. And he said, he knew that always his role was to help translate.
[00:29:24] What I had come back from some conference or my doctoral classes or reading some book, his job was to translate it into the college student life and how it would play out actually in the ministry. And without him, I would, a lot of these things that we did would not take root, same thing with Kiersten.
[00:29:42] Kiersten had a remarkable ability to take these kind of ideas and vision and concept and translate it. So I think that's one thing is that you've got to have good people around you. If you're not a good strategic thinker, a good strategic planner who could see the steps that need to happen to make something a reality.
[00:30:00]I think that's one crucial point. This one is maybe more particular to the doctoral project that I did, which was about the church being an entrepreneur in its community. And in short, it was trying to see if the church, not just a local church, but the church of faith community, combining its resources to put a grocery store in a food desert.
[00:30:24] That was my doctoral project in Chattanooga. But I know that what failed in that is that there were some powers and systems that had been created over time. And so when you're dealing with a street, that's a quarter mile from downtown and you want to put a nonprofit. There are some forces and systems that would like to make some more money off of that.
[00:30:47] Then you're a little nonprofit and ultimately a lot of that vision, I think the politics of that area and the financial gain that was going to be realized by some developers People protecting the real estate. That's that's what I think in my case made that fizzle out.
[00:31:05] Jake: [00:31:05] Do you want to get down to this question about your doctorate?
[00:31:07]And if you could explain a little bit more about this project that did fail can you tell us what you were attempting to do?
[00:31:11] Dr. David Burke: [00:31:11] Yeah through, I was taking these classes out at fuller seminary in California and a lot of it was on the church as mission re racing. Reinvisioning the church as an entity and a community that actually looks at the needs of the community.
[00:31:27] The neighborhood around it and seeks to meet those needs. That was the earliest part of our history as followers of Christ is whether it be hospitals or schools or things like that. So it's trying to recapture some of that identity of the church. And what I was seeing happen in Chattanooga was that you had this university community that was merging into a historic African-American neighborhood, the Martin Luther king Boulevard area.
[00:31:51] And as I began to talk with longtime residents of that neighborhood and city Councilman, that. Th it was a food desert. If you're familiar with that term, there was no access to fresh produce or a grocery store in a one mile radius around that. And what I knew from talking and I began to do research with grocery store owners, is that no big box grocery store was going to touch that neighborhood because it was the profit margin already as an integration of stores slim.
[00:32:22] And you have college students, little disposable income and a lower section socioeconomic group with developers probably not a substantial profit to be made there, but a non-profit whose bottom line or, it, wasn't just about the bottom line. And the church often will do things, not for the money, hopefully, and so the idea was to think about how could you mobilize the resources in the church? To actually invest in a neighborhood like that. And so my paper was called the entrepreneurial church, mobilizing the church to bring restoration to a neighborhood. And the Martin Luther king Jr. District.
[00:32:59] And I, in preparation of this podcast, I went on Google maps today. And I don't know when it was last updated, but largely that street is still the same, except developer did go and buy a chunk right off of the Boulevard and build student housing behind it. But there's still no grocery store. There's some restaurants that looks like it really caters to the college students, but that's also could be a gentrified kind of neighborhood now where the Africa, the predominantly African-American neighborhood still, this is not the needs of the neighborhood are not being met there.
[00:33:31] So the idea was to try to rally foundations, churches, instead of building more buildings for themselves to build a building for a neighborhood. Okay.
[00:33:41]Jake: [00:33:41] So is this kind of an entrepreneur? I know you say an entrepreneur, but in a ministry attempt, an outreach attempt that you are trying to actually get funding, you were actually trying to build a brick and mortar store.
[00:33:53] Yup. Was that also part of your doctorate or did you ride your doctorate about that
[00:33:56] Dr. David Burke: [00:33:56] experience? Yeah, the doctorate was probably, there is, the paper was more about about the experience, but I did take a business class on how to run a business plan. I was meeting with city council and local foundations.
[00:34:11] And ultimately it became clear that the foundations and some developers had some other ideas for the neighborhood. So that ultimately went out.
[00:34:24] Jake: [00:34:24] So I have two follow-up questions first. How did you notice that was. How did you get that you did to begin with? What made you actually notice it?
[00:34:31] That, cause I feel like that's something that myself I'm driving around. I don't really pay attention. I can tell when I'm in a lower economic status neighborhood. But I never looked to think, oh, where's a grocery store. That's just not something that I would notice. So I'm curious first of all, how did you notice that?
[00:34:46] And then secondly, when things actually didn't come together as you'd hoped, was that crushing? What was that experience like to see something that you really hoped would make a difference in people's lives, not come to fruition? What did that do to your drive to continue. Maybe to try project number
[00:35:02] Dr. David Burke: [00:35:02] two.
[00:35:04] Yeah. That's great. Great question. So the first question, how did I notice? Literally I drove down the street every day on my way to work. That was my exit. That was the, I drove down. I drove down ML king Boulevard and, Chattanooga has even developed more since I left. You lead downtown, which has been totally refurbished and Chattanooga's featured as a city that has moved from an industrial to a technology and tourism town.
[00:35:28] So you'll lead
[00:35:29] Jake: [00:35:29] downtown fastest internet in the country, right? So
[00:35:33]Dr. David Burke: [00:35:33] You, you leave downtown and literally within three blocks, you don't even know king Boulevard and it's boarded up buildings empty lots. And then I would take a left turn to go to the office and I, in a block I'm hitting the brand new apartment style dormitories for UT Chattanooga.
[00:35:50] And that the contrast between all of it. Oh my gosh. What's the deal with the street? And it's hard not to notice. And at the time some of the reading that I was doing, and there's this passage in the prophet, Isaiah that talks about the people of God will be called the restores of city streets.
[00:36:07] And so when you begin reading that kind of stuff, and then you're driving by it every day, you start going, wait a minute, maybe the goal of the church should be a restorative one, and it should be recapturing that identity of restoration of a neighborhood. And that's where, and it was about that time that had this concept of food deserts and healthy food and Hey, whole populations of people should not be getting their food from the gas station, and so all of that kind of merged together simultaneously. How did it feel about how it it's still has that man, I wish it could. I w I wish what if I had, for instance, stayed in the community, that there's a community where there's such longevity of generations, that people that live there, that if you're in a particular family or you have access to families like that, there's stuff that can get done, but it became really clear.
[00:36:58] There's two things. I think I learned one outsiders in a longstanding community have a hard time getting things done. If you're from there, you have it natural in that I was this kid from Seattle doing college ministry, which people didn't really understand in a church culture anyway. So that was, I was maybe one, one strike against me.
[00:37:18] The second one was this is that most one of the, there's a whole chapter in my doctorate about how the language of church and the language of business don't get along. Churches don't want to be a business and business. Certainly doesn't want to learn anything from the church and vice versa. And so I had a hard time convincing faith-based communities that a church could actually start a business and it would be a part of their mission.
[00:37:44] And when illustration of that is that I would present this to different groups of church leaders. They would then say, okay, so I get the idea of the grocery store, but when are you going to start the church? And I would, what they meant was what are you going to start a worship service? Because that's really, what does that make sense?
[00:38:02]Like what they would, what they would say back to me was like, okay, it's great. If you want to help provide people with food and all this kind of stuff but when are you gonna start plant a church? And I would go no. See, we're being the church by doing this,
[00:38:14] Holdeman: [00:38:14] where they trying to pigeonhole you or were they trying to.
[00:38:18] To investigate your
[00:38:19] Dr. David Burke: [00:38:19] motives. I think all the above, I th I think that they could go, oh, okay. So here's this at the time young college minister. Yeah. We could see him being a church planter. Yeah. That makes sense to us. And then, but I also don't, I think that they really didn't understand what I was talking about.
[00:38:31]And I would have to say, I'm not talking about starting a worship service, but in that era, some men go and in that time, church equals a worship service where people can make decisions to follow Christ. And that's what the real work of the church is. You can conservative Christian mindset sometimes all you have to do is say something like, oh, that sounds like social gospel and.
[00:38:59] Meaning like a gospel that actually has social implications to it. And it could get written off really quickly if you're in a certain camp. And I think a lot of the folks that I was talking to were in a certain camp, they were like, okay, but evangelism, tell me about how you're going to manualize people or when are you going to start the worship service?
[00:39:15] And didn't see the possible beauty that could come out of providing jobs and restoration to a community. I think we're actually in a different place now where we're all starting to realize. Yeah, that's probably the church needs to be doing right now because I don't know about where things are and where you all live.
[00:39:33]People aren't flocking to worship services right now.
[00:39:36] Holdeman: [00:39:36] Yeah. Th this might be a, this might be tell me if I'm crazy. This might be a leap from what you're saying, but I'm interpreting what you were saying through the lens of a few things I've been thinking about, which it sounds like what you're saying is there's this historically, or at least recently.
[00:39:51] There's an expectation of the church as just like a box check scenario. So congregants check the box by going to church on Sunday, pastors, check the box by doing a worship service, doing an altar call, inviting people to Jesus, and everybody did their thing. God's going to pat them on the back when they get to heaven.
[00:40:08] And they're the results or the outcomes. Aren't really that important. Ultimately. They, hopefully it does well, but it really, for me, it's about checking the boxes. I'm supposed to check and you're saying what if we take those lead metrics that like I had a worship service, I went to church on Sunday and you kinda scrambled those up and focus more on the lag, like more on what would it look like to put those in the far away outcome?
[00:40:33] Like people, seeking after a church to find a church after they've been served in all of these other real important ways. A place to learn a place to find people that were investing in them, a place for, stability, food, stability. Yeah, good, healthy food, all those sorts of things.
[00:40:51] All these change, what the lead metrics are to helping people with these things. And then the lag metrics can become like, Hey, by the way, where do you you guys that you know, helped me get healthy food every week. Where do you guys go to church? Or what.
[00:41:06] Dr. David Burke: [00:41:06] Yeah. Yeah. And, I understand what you're saying there.
[00:41:09]And in a lot of cases, that is the kind of the long game of okay. So at this group of people actually are tangibly showing that they care for me, my family, my children, and my needs, and they're doing this and not necessarily expecting something rich in return, if I get, we're not packaging the bread and putting a track, we're just selling bread. But it's not a bait and switch kind of thing. Hey, you've got it. We're going to sell you this food, but then you've got to come to work. It's not that, but we trust that over time, we're going to love, we're going to love people. And then they might, begin to, I was looking back at my doctoral paper and I don't remember this that well, but I was like, wow, that's interesting.
[00:41:49] It's theologian named Carl Bart who wrote a long time ago. And he talked about when he actually loved people. People will naturally begin to wonder about the source of that love. So when you actually do it with integrity and because you actually care for the person and not for an altar ulterior motive, Bart's argument was that no, they'll wonder about the source of the love.
[00:42:13] So you don't have to worry about that. Yeah I think that we and the church had they're relegated ourselves society has relegate relegated themselves or relegated the church to, a big thing in California as a non essential or non-essential kind of thing right now. But I think the other factor too, is that we live in a world where words are super cheap.
[00:42:34] And if the church is just known for a word message and not a tangible message of another con. We're missing something. And one of the other books that, that I referenced in the research was a book by Gabe Lyons called the next Christians. And he talks about this research that shows, Hey, the deeds that you do, the act that back up means so much in this generation of people.
[00:43:05]Cause we're joke, cheat. Everybody's saying a bunch of stuff. So what's true. It's when the words and the actions line up,
[00:43:13] Jake: [00:43:13] especially in the political climate we're at. So often what I hear from especially conservative Christians is that the battle is to preserve like Christian rights and Christian what they hold sacred now and under Christian freedoms.
[00:43:30]And I totally understand that is that is an important. I understand why that is important to people, but at the same time, I'm like, that's just like giving up freedoms was something just much more common in the early church, like giving up freedoms and like focusing on, Hey, I got to preserve my freedoms.
[00:43:45] That just didn't really exist. But yet we are, it seems like we are so often that this is probably nothing new. I'm just getting old enough to recognize that it's just so common that is just so prevalent in our culture, which is Christians just wanting to do everything they can to preserve their freedoms.
[00:44:00] And there are things that could be voted on the Supreme court or laws that can be passed that I might not disagree with. But I guess my problem is that but is that where I should expend my energy and my battle is like fighting to keep those things that I hold sacred or is it to actually reach the people and make a difference, like you said bring life to the streets around me instead of just like fighting a political battle.
[00:44:23] I don't know if. The actual question about that, but first of all, does that make sense? What I'm saying? Yeah. And how would you respond to that sentiment?
[00:44:30]Dr. David Burke: [00:44:30] So here are some of my thoughts is that I think that there are scriptures and teachings that exhort us to lay down our sense of freedom or rights for the benefit of another.
[00:44:44] And, not to dive into not what might be a controversial topic, but I'll share with you how our church has approached this whole COVID-19 stuff. So I've been teaching our church out of the books of the Bible that talk about us being an exile, but what did people like Daniel and Neil via do an exile.
[00:45:01] They worked within the foreign government system that they were in, and God's still brought about change in the. Midst of that. So there are a lot of churches that have chosen to rebel against the current authorities for a variety of reasons. And usually it's the argument about freedom and rights, but I've encouraged our church and our elders are with us on this to say, there's also another way.
[00:45:23] There's another way to exist within the county and state guidelines and work within and work as a partner for the city to seek the welfare of the city and abide by these kinds of guidelines. So that does mean a feeling like we're losing our freedom. I think that this is my opinion.
[00:45:41] I think that some of the talk about losing our rights and our freedom is that people are fearful because they already see the proverbial kind of writing on the wall that the church has lost. Its. A lot over the last decades. And so we're waiting already in our influence. And so it just feels oh, here's another attack.
[00:46:00] And if this goes, then what's next. But instead, what if we, instead of fighting for those things, we began to love our city wealth, seek the welfare of the city, as it says in Jeremiah, be a restorator of the city streets so much so that the community the community doesn't want you to leave, could it get to that point where, because we're the ones that's supporting the school with art and music.
[00:46:25]We're the ones that's providing, stuff for students and communities and all the rest that you almost don't want that the community would say, oh, that would be a tragedy if that church left.
[00:46:36] Fin: [00:46:36] Yeah. I love that perspective. And I think that idea of if you're persecuted, especially for doing the right thing, that's the kind of the point, right?
[00:46:45] Like Jesus was persecuted, so you're going to be persecuted. And when they push you out, they're going to be, thinking they're doing it for the right reasons, but your, you're the one who's following me in and there's, it feels to me like in some ways the American Christian has gotten so enamored actually with
[00:47:01] Dr. David Burke: [00:47:01] the power that,
[00:47:02] Fin: [00:47:02] that identity held.
[00:47:04] And now that is slowly you pointed out, it's like the air slowly sitting out of that balloon.
[00:47:08] Dr. David Burke: [00:47:08] Now it's,
[00:47:10] Fin: [00:47:10] there's a loss of a lot more than that. Just you
[00:47:13] Dr. David Burke: [00:47:13] know, a,
[00:47:14]Fin: [00:47:14] A court case or something like that. It's it is literally, I am becoming the lesser in a society where I've always been the greater.
[00:47:22] And for some reason, this. Although it's like totally countered to the narrative of the Bible. That's a position that America, the American white evangelical church I think has gotten very comfortable. And so this is just me editorializing, but I think if anything the church is going to be refined over time by, by some of this
[00:47:40]
[00:47:40] This necessary loss of, or I won't say necessarily loss, but it's gonna be refined by people falling away, people leaving the church who.
[00:47:49]Don't see the church being what it says it was or said it should be. And by the people who are still there being shown, maybe in some cases to be humble and servant and willing to, as your churches, I think be a light in the community and others will be shown for the power hungry, the men, the power brokers, the people that maybe, I don't know, it might've been someone Chattanooga who are, you might have other motives.
[00:48:15] So that's fin says it's a new segment of the podcast.
[00:48:18]Jake: [00:48:18] I do want to be respectful of your time, David. There are two questions I at least want to get to and they're fins second, like eighth and ninth question. Then do you want to kick, maybe get into the.
[00:48:30] Fin: [00:48:30] Yeah. David, as we've been exploring passion projects I've liked to ask almost all of our desks about where they think this thing comes from.
[00:48:40] Is it innate? Is it something that we just get from this culture that we live in? And I think sometimes there's this notion that it's this like Maslow hierarchy self-actualization and it's for these people who are to have so many levels of security that now I can sit around and think about what to do with a couple hours of my day, or I can sit and think oh, do I like my life?
[00:49:05] Or am I totally fulfilled eight hours a day in my job? Is it that, is it just that we have the blessing of time and margin? And that's why we're talking about these things and thinking of these things or. Is that it's actually something that's a deeper part of who we are and how we're made to be that it just can't help become out of us.
[00:49:28] And that even maybe a different time in history or with a different set of circumstances, but that fire would still be burning. So I'd love to hear you, as somebody who's studied in history and also from a spiritual and a philosophical lens has this been with us all along? Is this innate or is there something more, I don't know, just about the time and place of history that makes these passion projects
[00:49:46] Dr. David Burke: [00:49:46] a thing.
[00:49:48] Yeah, I think that's really good question. I don't know if it's always been with us. But I think w what I do think is this is that, that I believe that we are created in the image of God. And some of what that means is that God has endowed us with the ability to be creative. To be as he created that we also are stewards of and creators of new things within that creation.
[00:50:12]And I do believe that we're also uniquely made. But I think that good part can easily get corrupted in frankly, a north American individualistic society that, that also creatures Hey, do what you feel and whatever you feel is important. And as you that's what you feel is really you, that's boils down some of that message.
[00:50:34]If it's, I don't know if it's as simple as that, but I think it is some of that that your feelings about certain topics or about who you are. No one should take that away from you. And that's who you are. I think that can be dangerous. And I think that when you talk about passion projects, I think that we need to define what we mean by passion because I look at my own like kind of college experience.
[00:50:58] I came in, I really loved technical drawing and I thought I wanted to create, and I wanted to be an art. And because that was really smart. And 17 years old, I chose a college with no architecture program. And and then my sophomore year I started taking psychology classes and I was fascinated by it because it's, this is about what motivates people and what people experiences impact them.
[00:51:18] And so I thought I was going to be a counselor. And then my junior year, I thought, oh, advertising because advertising uses motivation of people and you get to do creative things with selling stuff. And then my senior year, I was like, yeah, I don't think I could sell stuff my whole life, to people that they don't really need, just convince them that they need it.
[00:51:36] And I had a kind of a moral issue with that. That's, and again, people didn't haven't tested, but that's just so in four years my passions changed four times. And I think that one of the blessings that a community of faith, a church could be is to actually help people. Discover their passions.
[00:51:54] We obviously see it are our culture right now. There's this real fascination with personality tasks, whether it's on Facebook or whatever, StrengthFinders and Enneagram and all that stuff. And I think all of it, it's trying to say, Hey, yeah, we are made a certain way, but the danger of those tests is that it becomes a label and it doesn't take that more theological belief that says, wow, but we're also being changed like each and every day we're being changed.
[00:52:21] So yes, we might have some certain characteristics or giftedness, but it doesn't pigeonhole us or lock us into something forever. Because we are to be changed as well.
[00:52:31] Holdeman: [00:52:31] One of the things I've seen from those personality tests is I think people see it. Way of understanding themselves and oh, I see I do that.
[00:52:39] And I it's nice to see an explanation behind that. That kind of makes sense. And so I think it's partially yes. Then it becomes a label where now people feel like they can't be different than that. If they don't, if they don't totally aligned, but there's also this, I don't feel seen even by me and those things help shine a
[00:52:57] Dr. David Burke: [00:52:57] mirror.
[00:52:58] And I came across this quote, I think back in seminary and I've always held onto it and probably quoted it to a bunch of college students when I work with them is it's the one from Frederick Beachner. And it says that your passion, your vocation, your calling in life is where your deepest gladness and the world's deep hunger meet.
[00:53:17] So it's where your deepest gladness and the world's deep hunger meet. So it's not just about what makes you glad, but there's also a deep hunger. That exists in the world. And those two things come together and that's often conform your calling. So it, I think that's for me, has always been maybe a filter by which to ask people to think about
[00:53:39] Jake: [00:53:39] their passion.
[00:53:40] You've mentioned a few times about Earl, you mentioned where you went to school. I just want to make sure that I understand you play. Soccer in college when you're. And you also were a kicker on the football team one year and you also got injured when you were kicking. Yes. Why
[00:53:56] Dr. David Burke: [00:53:56] is this a role?
[00:53:59] Is this about failed passion projects? Yeah. Yeah. So just another thanks. And just dig that up. Another failed passion project. Yeah, boy.
[00:54:07] Jake: [00:54:07] Wow.
[00:54:07] Dr. David Burke: [00:54:07] Get Kelsey on. I'm really I'm so that's why you brought me on, oh, here's the guy that has failed at more passion projects than anybody else we've ever talked to
[00:54:17] Jake: [00:54:17] bad decisions.
[00:54:19] It's okay. I tore my,
[00:54:20] Dr. David Burke: [00:54:20] I know I can think of one. I just made not too long ago and about my time.
[00:54:27] Jake: [00:54:27] Yup. More to standard questions. Of course we can list these in the notes for the episode what are some books that you recommend that may or may not be related to this topic, but what are some kind of resources.
[00:54:37] And then you the second part of the question, exercises, tools, practice that you find helpful. So books and then,
[00:54:43] Dr. David Burke: [00:54:43] yeah. So there's going to be no surprise to you, Jake. I think that anything by Dallas Willard is a a wonderful reinvisioning of really what a life of following Jesus is like and how much he talked about the kingdom of God and what that's really what Jesus was inviting us into.
[00:54:59]It wasn't just a ticket to heaven, but I think anything by Willard actually writes a lot about, he's got whole works on God and business and the impact that faith has in your work and entrepreneurship and all that kind of stuff. So I think anything by Willard, I'm a huge fan. When I was talking about the doctoral project earlier, a really important work for me was a book by a guy named John Perkins.
[00:55:22] Who's extremely well-respected in the community development world restoring at-risk communities. And just a quote that he said in the mission of the Messiah, the mission of Jesus and our mission is not complete until we've empowered those living in devastated spaces, in the ruined cities to restore and rebuild their own community.
[00:55:42]The exercise, this is a personal one for me. I always want to be with. So continuing to learn, and there's so much content out there, but recently I took a class, my son's going to the university of Virginia and they let parents take classes online. So I took a class in their business school on design thinking which is really a human centered approach to problem solving in business and in other areas.
[00:56:06] And it's amazing how much it applied to my work as a pastor
[00:56:10] Jake: [00:56:10] David, this has been really good. It's really refreshing to chat with you and hear you. And again, as someone who's been a a mentor for a long time, even from a distance it's refreshing just to hear you talk, it's just refreshing to hear your thoughts, refreshing, to joke around with you a little bit.
[00:56:24]So thank you for taking the time to do this. This is incredibly meaningful to me personally, and just incredibly excited about this. And so I can't wait to put this all together and listen to it again. So thank you so much for joining us and until next time.
[00:56:40] Dr. David Burke: [00:56:40] And can you guys, I love to
[00:56:42] Jake: [00:56:42] hit that out.
[00:56:43] Drum music.
[00:56:44]Thanks for listening to the interesting lives of normal people. If you liked what you heard, we'd really appreciate giving us a review and rating on apple podcasts and telling your friends it really helps new people find us. Remember the David's wife, Kelsey has an art business. You can find her art at Kelsey Burke, art.com.
[00:57:01] And thanks again to Hugo for letting us use her music. In this episode, you can find it more of a music on SoundCloud.