CODA Transcript, Final
Released November 22, 2022
Intro, both hosts:
This is Screen Cares. I'm Jennie and I'm Sarah. And we welcome you to our place to connect beyond the screen and watch better together. <music>
Sarah:
One thing that I think is a really great bridge into our movie for this week is an important focus for us is accessibility and inclusivity of our podcast. We care very, very, very, very, very much about allowing anybody who wants to participate in the conversation that we are having to get to do so. And one means to that end is that we always offer transcripts of our podcast.
And when I mentioned that to somebody the other day, they thought, “Oh, ha, ha, ha, a transcript for an audio podcast. Why do you do that?” But there's many, many reasons why we do that. And the primary reason is that if there's somebody who is d/Deaf or hard of hearing and wants to get to participate in the conversation, they are absolutely welcome to. And so these transcripts are something that we are committed to always offering.
They are on our website, they're linked in our show notes, and it's something that we think is exceptionally an important thing to do. We’ve done it since day one and we will continue to do that so that everybody does feel included. And I guess this is a great way to really introduce the movie that we're talking about this week, right?
Jennie:
Yes absolutely. And I've always been so grateful that you kind of took the steps and the extra work it takes to make those transcripts so that someone can read along or listen along or read it later. I think that that's been really great. And yes, you brought us an amazing movie this week that absolutely ties in with the idea of transcripts, accessibility, and open lines of communication. What did you bring us this week, Sarah?
Sarah:
Because we can't end the season on something dark or depressing, we are ending Season One of Screen Cares with the 2021 movie, CODA. Did you see this movie last year when it came out?
Jennie:
I did not see CODA whenever it came out. It actually was just kind of in the big block of, “oh, there's a bunch of Academy Award nominated things I wanna see some time.” And it just didn't rise to the surface for me. And so I really didn't know what to expect whenever you recommended it. I didn't even know what the broad out outline of it was. I just heard the name, didn't know anything else.
Sarah:
Well, before we get any further, I will read our IMDB description and um, here it is: “As a CODA, Ruby is the only hearing person in her deaf family. When the family's fishing business is threatened, Ruby finds herself torn between pursuing her passion at Berkeley College of Music and her fear of abandoning her parents.”
So when you hear that, did you know what ‘CODA’ meant when you heard the title, without reading the description?
Jennie:
I'm gonna be really honest with you. I did not know what “CODA” meant until one minute from now when you tell me what CODA means, <laugh>, because I do not know what it means still. I watched the movie and I guess my curiosity has been overshadowed by busyness. So please, what does CODA mean for people like myself who do not know what CODA means?
Sarah:
Okay, before I tell you, I want to sort of cushion that a little bit with the fact that I also did not know what was intended by the title ‘CODA’ because I'm a music dork. So I thought that the title was referencing a musical term, which is “coda.” <laugh>. I literally thought up until I was doing some research for this movie that they were talking about kind of making a play on words, sort of, kind of with the fact that this is, you know, a kind of a different ending, a repeated ending. And again, hello, this is about a child who's musical.
So I thought that it was going in that direction and it is not. So CODA, c-o-d-a, all In capital, which is what the title is and how it's described in IMDB stands for “Child of Deaf Adults” or “Child of a Deaf Adult.” So that is who Ruby in the movie is. She’s the only hearing kiddo in her whole family.
Jennie:
Oh my goodness, I'm so grateful, one that you did the extra kind of digging to find out what it means. Although I'm sure that many people do know what ‘CODA’ means, especially, yes, if they are part of the d/Deaf or hard of hearing community. But I love also that you had the kind of musical understanding. Cuz I did think when I saw the title that it was a music-y something. But that does seem very poetic, the idea of that double meaning of that circling back around and the looping and the repeating.
I think that this might win the award for the best IMDB description of the season. I really think that it's on point. What do you think?
Sarah:
It's on point. It's on point. I don't think they messed it up this time, poor IMDB that we rag on every single week. <laugh>. But I think it's completely accurate. I really do.
Jennie:
So Sarah, what drew you to this movie and what were the real standout features of it that made it rise to the top for you to watch it the first time?
Sarah:
I studied American Sign Language in college and my career dream was to be a speech language pathologist so when I heard about this movie and I also heard that there was sort of a musical tie, I was like, “Oh, I have to check that movie out.” But I also in the back of my mind thought, “ugh, what like hearing person are they gonna cast in this movie to do some really bad sign language or some horrible mimicking or something,” cuz there's so much cringe worthy stuff out there.
But I heard that they had cast Marlee Matlin as one of the primary roles and she was the first d/Deaf actress to win an Academy Award. Her performance in “Children of a Lesser God” is just like, wow. So when I heard she was in this movie and the fact that she had threatened to pull out if they didn't hire other actual deaf actors and actresses, I thought, “okay, maybe this is not gonna be a really crappy sort of ploy to get us to see a movie about deaf people but not actually allowing real deaf voices be heard and respected in the way that they deserve to be.”
Jennie:
Marlee Matlin was an actress I was familiar with, and I knew that she was d/Deaf. But what about all the other characters and actors in this film?
Sarah:
So Amelia Jones, who plays Ruby, who is the daughter of Marlee Matlin’s character, Jackie, and Troy Kotsur's character, Frank. Those are her parents in the movie. She is not d/Deaf. But she did learn sign language for the movie or at least her lines in sign language for the movie. From what I understand, she has gotten sort of mixed reviews for her sign language in the movie. Her singing was gorgeous and I think she did a decent job performance-wise. I can't speak to the American Sign Language side.
But then we had incredible performances from Troy Kotsur, the dad, again, that's Frank, and Daniel Durant, who is Leo, that's Ruby's brother. And they are both working actors who are d/Deaf. And, Troy Kotsur, I mean, just blew me away when I kind of felt like he a little bit stole the show of CODA.
Without knowing anything about the movie, he just is captivating. He is a fantastic character. His character was written so well and he just blew it out of the park, which is why I think he very rightfully earned the Academy Award for best supporting actor that year cuz he was just so darn good.
Jennie:
He absolutely blew me away. And I've just been over here nodding vigorously, because Troy Kotsur, I couldn't stop watching him if he was in a scene. Yes. I don't know about you, but I could see so much of my own father in him. And also just his presence was very, not just believable, but just very engaging. I just, even though my father is not deaf, he does not know sign language. There's just something very, universal about the way he played a dad who deeply loves his daughter. I thought that was great. What did you think?
Sarah:
You're right, he is just sort of that like ultimate dad figure and that ultimate dad who just loves their children so much and really wants to connect with his kids and understand them. I think that was the piece that I loved about the way that he portrayed that character was that you could feel that you could feel the love that he had for his daughter and it would not have been possible.
This movie would have been an absolute failure in my mind if Troy Kotsur was not the father, if they had not had an actor who was that talented and that just capable of expressing such deep, sincere, authentic, complicated love for his family and for his own aspirations. It would've been a flop. It would've been just silly fluff.
Jennie:
It would've been. Exactly. Exactly. And it was very raw emotionally, which brings me to what the rating was for this movie. It was PG-13. And my son, when I said, “you could probably watch CODA,” he said, “well, what rating was it?” And I said, “Oh, it was PG 13.” He's like, “Oh, so…” and then he referenced some like Marvel movie that was PG-13. Like no, no, no, it isn't PG-13 cuz of like violence. It's PG-13 because of adult themes, because of sexual things, because of language.
But I think the thing that gives it so much weight is exactly what you talked about. It was the deep, authentic emotional connectivity, those pieces. And the real, I like what you said about his, um, Troy Kotsur's characters, Frank's, aspirations and these very, very strong human emotions that are explored in this movie.
And so it's PG-13, but here at Screen Cares we care a little bit more, a lot bit more about who you share these movies with, especially a movie like CODA. And so today, let's discuss what is the Screen Shares Rating for CODA. We have our multiple options. We have Buddy Screen, movies that you would watch with a friend, <sigh>, our relegated-to-the-sidelines-until-another-day, Work Screen, movies you'd watch with a colleague, Family Screen, movies you would watch with extended family across generations. Then we have Little Screen, movies that you would watch with kids, Love Screen, that you would watch the significant other and Solo Screen that you could watch by yourself for self-reflection. And so Sarah, what rating would you give CODA?
Sarah:
Guess what? I am gonna pull it out. I'm gonna put a big ol’ stamp on CODA for a Work Screen.
Jennie:
What?
Sarah:
Yes.
Jennie:
Whoa.
Sarah:
Yes.
Jennie:
This is an exciting day. This is exciting.
Sarah:
I obviously would wanna share this movie with family, with kids, with my significant other, with friends, literally everybody because it's just such a feel good movie. But I specifically have been in workplaces who do not understand on a deep level that all people deserve to be seen for their entire self that they bring to the workplace.
And I have seen a lot of workplaces try very hard to understand the very surface level of diversity. I don't even mean inclusivity because they don't get far enough to get to inclusivity. They wanna do diversity. That's what they wanna do, <laugh>. And if that's your goal…
Jennie:
We did diversity today! <laugh>
Sarah:
We did it. Check. And if that's your approach, you're coming to it in a very superficial way. And you're gonna fail.
You're not gonna “do diversity” if you're saying that you're gonna do it that way. And what I think is so strong about CODA is that it shows a family who, sure, yes, three of the members of the family are deaf. That is true. But they are working. They have dreams, they have feelings, they have sex lives, they have pain, they have fears, they have all of the things that people who are not deaf have.
And I think that this is again, a “show me, don't tell me” situation where I think if all HR directors, all executive directors, presidents, CEOs, whatever upper leadership folks were to see a movie like this in the context of like, “Hey, we need to work on actual inclusivity in our workplace, in our workplace culture, in our hiring practices,” I think they would understand a little bit better that people deserve to be seen as people, not as whatever their diagnosis, whatever their label, whatever their identification is.
I absolutely feel this to my core, but what about you? I don't take away the emotional stuff either cuz it definitely deserves to be seen by everybody.
Jennie:
Oh, I agree. I think that this is definitely one of those movies that is a, you know, Love Share, Little Share, Family Share It's all the share, share it with everyone. I actually, after I watched this, I shared it, I texted multiple people just being like, “you need to stop what you're doing and watch CODA as soon as you can.” Like, I was just like, “This movie is amazing. How have I not seen it?” I think I texted you, “Um, is it the best movie ever, question mark,” because it just checks a lot of boxes. It's just very effective. It gives you all the feelings and insights.
And so I wanted to really just applaud the awareness you had to give it a Work Screen. Because as I was watching, I kept thinking back to how much I wish I had seen this movie before I was a teacher in a predominantly Spanish speaking community. And all the translation stuff that Ruby had to do for her parents, I remember so many times having students who would have to translate for their parents.
And there's a lot of similarities between the kind of things that they had to do. And at our school, we made every effort, especially for parent conferences and things like that, to make sure we had translators who are not the children. But, I really, really wish I had watched this in that setting because I think one, it would've given me as a teacher more empathy for where I placed a child in relationship to the power dynamic of their parents.
Sarah:
Mm-hmm. <affirmative>.
Jennie:
I think that that is huge. I also think that it is just undeniably humanizing. And I think that anytime it is made aware to me that, “oh my gosh, I have not been as conscious or thoughtful or considerate or inclusive as I should have been,” I don't just try to be more inclusive and considerate of the group that's being representative in this case, you know, d/Deaf and hard of hearing community.
But it makes me more aware of where are my other holes-- where are the other places where I could do better at being inclusive or thoughtful. So yes, like snaps for Work Screen, snaps for Work Screen. I think I'll share my screening experience with it with Solo Screen and I actually think it's good for that too. Maybe if we give it these two rankings, Solo Screen and Work Screen, it bridges the two bookends of, “watch it alone or watch it with a big ol’ group of people.”
And, it's going to hit you. But it was with real, real representation, which I think is the huge piece. It is, can't be understated. This movie would've been completely different had they not made the casting choices that they did. And I think it reaches so many people.
Sarah:
I think so too. I'm just so glad that you got to see this movie because, you know, there's sometimes where you recommend a movie to somebody because you're like, “Yay, I saw that intellectual powerhouse movie. I want you to know how smart and artsy I am.” Like sometimes you say those things and maybe by “you,” I mean “me,” cuz I do those things sometimes. And then there's other times where you're just like, “Hey, I just wanted you to see this very surprising movie, because it was unexpected and great.”
But this is the type of movie that I have found myself recommending to people who I feel like I wish that I could go to their house and make them tea or bring them cookies or have a chat with, you know, that just cozy feeling that you get when you're just hanging out in that sort of intimate way with somebody.
And this is that movie. Like it is not, I would say it is not a perfect movie in many ways because even though this is probably one of my favorite movies, because it's so beautiful, it is exceptionally predictable. It does all the tropes of a high school movie. Like we all know what the challenge is. All this high school girl, she really wants to sing and wants to do this thing that her family may or may not approve of and they kind of don't get it. And identity and all of those things, like extremely predictable. There was nothing special. We even have this like teacher character who I thought was probably the weak link of the movie to be completely honest. Very, very done over, like, we've all seen that movie.
But there is something uniquely beautiful about this movie and it is a warm hug. And so part of me was like, I didn't wanna tell you too much about it. I just wanted to be like, “I think my choice is gonna be CODA.” Because I was like, “I kind of want Jennie to have a warm hug of a movie and not some like, just other type.” Like that's just something about this movie that is just special.
Jennie:
Oh, I love the way you described that and the idea that a movie could almost be like gifted to someone. Like, “I'm gonna give you this movie and I know how it's gonna probably make you feel,” like that's such a lovely idea. I agree with you and I wanted to, this is one of the questions I wanted to ask you about this movie because I don't have an answer to it.
So you described how predictable it was and it absolutely is. And whenever I was recommending it to someone and I said the plot line out loud, I realized how much the plot sounded like a Lifetime movie. <laugh>.
So I was like, “it's about a girl who has a deaf family and she's the only, she's CODA,” I didn't know the language at the time, “\ but she wants to be a musician. She loves singing.” <laugh>. And I said it out loud and I'm like, “But it's great.” And then I felt like I had to give it credentials. I was like, “but it won Academy Awards.”
I wanted to ask you, what about this movie do you think made it tip towards a real, I mean, work of art? I feel like it was a really great movie, predictable. Yes. You know, all of these things that we've been saying are maybe shortcomings of it. It had all that there, it could have gone wrong and been less engaging and memorable and effective. But what did the movie makers do that tipped the scale in favor of like, “wow, this is a really powerful movie?”
Sarah:
Man, you ask hard questions. <laugh>
Jennie:
It can’t be helped. <laugh>
Sarah:
That's a great question. I think what set it apart for me are two sort of parallel things that relate to the same thing. So we talk very, very much about how both you and I are sort of completely enamored of New England and in some of our New England-ish movies that we have seen, I would say that New England has been captured either more or less accurately, maybe more or less romantically. And the ones that are a more romantic vision of what New England is like, are the ones that are less authentic.
I would say that CODA though is a very authentic representation of what I love very, very much about New England. I think it absolutely captured the people in a way that I felt very familiar and comfortable with. I'm like, I knew people like that in Rhode Island. I have seen those dive bars in Rhode Island. And the setting was obviously real New England. It wasn't like a fake New England that was set really like in, you know, California and tried to make like it was New England. It was absolutely filmed in in New England. And you could feel that, like I could feel that salty air.
The most important part was I could feel the intention of the writer and director and possibly the whole crew in wanting to tell a story about real people's lives. I don't think that there was this sensationalism of deaf people and deaf culture that I was afraid I was going to see. But I think the fact that you could feel that the richness of the script and just the story made me want to care about the people, that were in this movie in a way that just felt so real.
I mean, it's funny when you're describing this movie, how you describe this movie to other people. I described this movie to somebody who was very, um, I would say “persnickety” about their movie choices. And I felt a little weird because they were like, “Oh, you watched CODA? You guys are doing CODA? Why are you doing CODA? Oh, just cuz it won an Academy Award for Best Picture last year?” Like, no, that is not why I am recommending that you see this. Although it was a good enough movie that that is absolutely what happened to it. It did win Best Picture. But, but no.
And so they were like, “Why should I even watch this movie?” And I was like, “Okay, well you love the movie Whiplash and what you told me that you liked about Whiplash is all of the creative swearing. And in CODA you're going to see some fantastic uses of creative swearing. It was some of the best parts of the movie for me. It was so real, so funny, so fantastic to see. And so just go see it for the fantastic creative swearing.” And that's funny, right? Like how we represent movies to different people that we want to see the movie that we're talking about <laugh>.
Jennie:
It absolutely does. And I really think that you're hitting on something that is exactly right about why this movie is powerful instead of like sappy. And I think that the thing that I'm hearing you saying is it really is the idea of representation, being authentic and inclusive. And for, for fear of using an overused, you know, phrase and idea: that idea of having people at the table, like the people who are present, who are represented, and the power that gives, like I guarantee you people who made that are probably have lived in New England.
It wasn't that, you know, postcard sailor, it is, fishing is hard work. She, uh, Ruby, fishes with her, with her dad and brother and she sings loudly and they don't hear her and everyone is happy. But it's a gritty business, but there's still a romance with the sea that he has
Sarah:
mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Jennie:
And it's more real because it isn't fake. And similarly, when you're talking about the idea of deaf voices and representation, I think that is definitely it. I think that's part of what tips the scale for it towards being a movie that's powerful because it's fueled by authenticity. It's not fueled by, “This is gonna be sad. This'll, this'll get at 'em.” And it is the worst.
And I think some movies that kind of Lifetime movies are fine, but it's different. Like where they're taking like, “Oh, we know this is a sad thing. This will give people feelings,”and it's manufactured as opposed to authentic. I really think that's a difference.
Sarah:
I agree. It's a difference. It's also not that the family who is deaf is there just to help tell the story of Ruby. And that is something that I hate seeing in movies, where somebody's disability, someone's difference, someone's challenge, someone's identity is there simply as a plot device.
We've talked about that actually in our Up episode when we talked about how cancer can oftentimes be used as sort of like a shortcut to, you know, get somebody to shuffle off this mortal coil real quick and make it be so that somebody else is sad. But like we see that in movies where it's like, “oh, see, they're, they have a lot of trouble because, you know, they're in poverty or because they have a mom who is an alcoholic or whatever that thing is.”
We see that time and time again. And then that alcoholic mom or that poverty-stricken life is not actually given any realness or any gravity or any depth. It's just, “look, there they are. There's the one over there, the nameless one that we give two lines to.” But here, what I love the most is that this family, each of them had their own identities. I knew who Jackie was, the mom, I knew who Frank was the dad, and I knew who Leo was, the brother. Like they all were given complex lives, fears, hopes, dreams in a relationship that I could actually believe as family members. And that's special. That's completely special.
Jennie:
I think you are exactly right. And each character was also really specific. Like you were talking about some of the funny swearing and the different language. I felt like I learned something about humor and about different struggles that they have. And I'm also wondering if you could, talk us a little bit through the different characters and like what actually happened in this film and you know, kind of some examples of what Ruby's struggles was and what her relationship was to her family.
Sarah:
So in this movie we've got Ruby, who is a high school student, and, we can tell that she has not really had the easiest life socially, and I think that that was something that many of us could sort of understand. And we find out later that she had been bullied throughout her whole childhood by, you know, just gross “mean girl” type people, because she as a child spoke like many people who are deaf speak. There's a difference in tone. There's a difference in articulation and inflection because if you are not somebody who is hearing you cannot produce words vocally the same way that somebody who is hearing can do. So she, she talked a little bit differently and so people made fun of her for that.
And she's just trying to find her way. She works very, very hard on her, her father's boat. He’s a fisherman and that is a hard life. Her father and her brother, they're the fishermen, and Ruby's working alongside of them. And what is interesting to me is how hard fishing life must be because we see the physical side of it, which it's, I mean, they're up, you know, before the dawn, they're lifting heavy nets, they're doing all of these things, but then they also have to sell the fish, right? That's the whole point.
And not only are the fishermen in general just sort of “getting the shaft,” for a lack of a more articulate way of saying it, but they specifically have to watch out because there were a couple times where Ruby had to kind of step in and say, “Hey, you offered so and so ‘x’ amount of money for their fish. Like, why are you only trying to pay this lower amount for my dad and my brother? That's not the same.” Simply because they couldn't hear what other prices were being offered.
So you see that they're sort of not only competing against just the naturally difficult world of fishing, but also the fact that things are operating around them that is not fair and is not equitable. And without Ruby being there to translate, the fear was that they were gonna continually be left behind financially and professionally. The dad and the brother, there's just a lot of financial strain because of the pressures of the fishing life. And so they end up wanting to go off on their own and start their own company. Sort of Ruby suggests the idea and they're like, “Yeah, okay, let's try to do this.”
The brother, Leo, really wants to do this. He wants to help grow his family's business into a business rather than just being at the beck and call of whatever price they can get at market. There's so much pressure that we see Ruby experiencing because as she is trying to develop her singing career, her voice, trying to prepare for an audition at Berklee, which everybody knows is one of the best music schools. That one's actually a real one, unlike in Whiplash, that was not a real school. You know, her family is trying to also grow their own thing. They're trying to develop this own thing, and she's sort of caught between her family and her own individual goals.
And it's hard because her own individual goals are things that her family didn't really know about her. They didn't know she liked to sing. It's not that they completely just didn't understand. There was some of that. But they also just didn't know until sort of midway through her whole preparation, she went to her mom and was like, “Yeah, I kind of wanna go to music school. I like to sing.”
And I think what I liked very much about the movie is that we see how helping can also be patronizing, <laugh> no matter what the intentions are. It can be very patronizing. Do you remember that scene, just sort of like in the bar where the brother was sitting, hanging out with coworkers, like other fishermen?
And you kind of, they did a great job with the cinematography and the film work there actually, so that you could really kind of, you were in his skin. You could see he was trying to understand the jokes, they were joking and he was kind of smiling along and wow, what a powerful way to show an actual challenge of trying to fit in with coworkers and colleagues in your community when you don't have the same way of communicating. And they were not attempting to communicate with him and there was no bridge there.
Jennie:
That scene was so painful to watch because I think they had done a good job in the film and the actors did such an amazing job of making you feel their pride. These are proud people, these are not people who want pity. And that was another strength I think of the movie, is that they did not set it up in a way that made you feel like, “Oh, look at all the deficits of these people who can't hear, and let's feel sorry for them.” Instead, you saw how proud they were. You saw, like you said, all of their hopes and dreams, their goals, their dynamism. And we saw society's deficits a little bit in, in us not understanding.
Sarah:
Exactly. Exactly.
Jennie:
And I thought that was a really powerful moment.
Sarah:
I've only seen this movie twice, I watched it once to prepare and then once last year. Both times I left the movie feeling like, “Wow, this is such a beautiful movie.” But then there was sort of this tickling, uncomfortable feeling that I had with the way that Ruby was interacting with her family. And it wasn't until this week that I actually could understand why I felt so uncomfortable. And it was in all of those scenes where we see that Leo, the brother, who, you know, he's older than Ruby and he's very capable. He looks as though he's a completely proficient fisherman. We see that he wants to help lead this company, his family's fishing company.
He wants to be sort of his dad's second or maybe just, you know, co-partner, equal in this company, in this venture, this new giant scary venture to start your own business. Not only does the family not really give him the chance, but a lot of it feels like everybody in her family is looking to Ruby to be the voice and looking at her, the younger sibling, to kind of do the things that he can't do, which is hear. That's it. That's the one thing that she can do that he can't do. Maybe, maybe also she can sing and he can't, I don't know, maybe he has a lovely singing voice. We're not sure.
But, every time that she tries to communicate for her brother or her father or her mother, she's talking over them. She's not speaking for them, which was absolutely her positive intention. She loved her family. She was almost like a mama bear about her family. She was trying to protect them because she has seen what has happened when people just take advantage of the fact that they can't hear. So I get it. I get what she's doing, but I hated seeing it. I hated seeing what that was doing to Leo, her brother, because he's like, “I was fine until you got here. I can do things.”
I think that's something that is just so important for us to see on screen. The fact that yes, I think we do have to acknowledge when somebody has a difference. I think that's really important. That is part of their individuality. But that doesn't mean that we need to just jump to assume what they need. We don't need to do for other people. I think what is always important is the asking, which never really seems to happen.
It's never happened in situations where I've felt “other,” except frankly like with you. I had a couple other friends who have sort of stepped up, sort of in the heat of the pandemic when I was not really feeling very safe because of, unfortunately, racism and all of that kind of stuff. Nobody really asked like, “How are you feeling? What can I do? What should somebody do in the situations if they see you or somebody else in a situation like that, what should they do?”
Um, and it doesn't really feel good. I don't need to be felt like I need assistance. You know, I want to have my own voice about what I'm experiencing and how you can help me, as Sarah, an individual. And I think that's what Leo wanted. He wanted to get to say if he needed help and if so, what that help looked like, rather than Ruby jumping in and doing all of the things for him.
Jennie:
Exactly. I'm interested to dig a little bit deeper onto this piece if you feel comfortable, but as someone of Asian descent, I think that's the piece, Cuz I think listeners, if they don't know the kind of racism that you're talking about and during the pandemic that you were dealing with, that piece always broke my heart. And as someone who loves you and, and wants to help people, I never wanted to overstep that line. But it's such a difficult place and you can see that you wanna be protective and you wanna be knowledgeable and you want to ask. But ultimately, is it just asking? Is it just asking, “How can I help?” Or is it better for someone to just say, “how are you doing as an individual person?”
Sarah:
I think it's sort of trifold. Can I say that word, “trifold”? Like not talking about a pamphlet. I think it's three things. <laugh>
I think it's asking, “how are you,” like, “what do you need? Are you okay? What happened? What are you experiencing?” I think even that last question, like “what are you experiencing,” is something that people don't get asked a lot. Like they think that because they see things on the news that that's what everybody's story is. And that because their Chinese neighbor down the street had this one experience, that's the experience for all people who look slightly Asian might have experienced. That's not right.
And then the second piece is, honestly, we all have Google. Like I think people can spend two minutes on their phones and Google something that they don't understand. And that's something that I think is a piece that's not my responsibility to educate the world on what racism and institutionalized trauma can feel like for certain groups of people. If you're not a member of that group, just Google it. Like there's real information out there. If you're also not sure what a reputable source is, you can also Google “how to find reputable sources of information.”
Jennie:
<laugh>.
Sarah:
And again, this is me being a librarian's daughter, but I think it's really cool when you can find information for yourself and not just wonder to the ether: “I wonder how it feels to be Asian? Is racism real?” Like you can find the answer <laugh>.
Jennie:
But what I love though, I appreciate your simplification of it because the first two pieces of the three is “how are you as an individual?” “What is your experience like?” And then the third piece is like to “go do your own work, person who doesn't know.” And I think that that's just brilliant. That's exactly it.
And I think that any, any group that's experiencing marginalization or difficulty or in the case of CODA, really having a world built in a way that is incredibly inaccessible. And you said it so well, her brother was capable in every way except that he couldn't hear. I mean, that's one thing, I mean, let's list all the ways I'm not capable. It's probably more than one thing. You know, everyone has the things, but society is not stacked to be much, much more difficult for me, it's, it's much easier. And I saw that.
And so coming back to the, your experience and how you can help well for people you care about, I have heard people very ungenerously say, “Well, what, I'm not supposed to ask people what I'm supposed to do to do better? How am I supposed to do better?” And that's not it because it's that last piece. They just focus on the, “like Google it yourself.” And they don't think about the fact, “what is the unique thing that I can only learn from this person?” And that is, “How are you doing today?” I can't find out how Sarah's doing without asking Sarah. And I can't find out what your experience is without asking you what your experience is. But the whole other piece, I can do that. I can do that on my own.
And so it, it is all three. And so ask the people because it is, you're right. It is not your job. You are busy dealing with the mess. Like, you don't also have to explain to me how to do it. Like, if someone spilled something on the floor and you were cleaning it up, I wouldn't be like, “Could you teach me like right now the best way to get stains up off the floor, like while you're doing it? Could you do that for me?” That's, that's bonkers. How about you be a friend and, “I'll look it up. If you're in the mix of it and you can't, you know, and you're doing it, I'll be here to support and kind of fill my own gap.”
I think that's a great reminder. It's great way of putting it, Sarah.
Sarah:
What I don't wanna do here is also assume to know everything about people who are d/Deaf or hard of hearing, because I also don't wanna try to be doing that piece either. But what I can do is at least put myself in the shoes of someone who is living that life experience. And I think that is sort of like the unspoken fourth part that is probably the most important that people fail to do.
And I think if we all were to just sit again, this is a five minute lesson: Okay. Take one minute to learn what are reputable sources on the internet. Take two minutes to do some Googling, and then take two more minutes after that and sit for a minute and just literally try to, you know, close your eyes, try to put yourselves in another perspective and just try to think to yourself, what is that person's life like when they go to the grocery store?
Like maybe just pick that one same errand. Okay. If I am a person who can't hear, what would it be like if I went to the grocery store? What are the things that would be hard or harder or impossible for me? What are the things that wouldn't be? How would I interact with people if I couldn't find something, if I had to use the bathroom? What if there's a fire alarm that went off? Like, um, how would I know that there was a fire? You know, what are the things that I would need to be aware of or think about if I was in that situation? And same thing for whether you're Asian or, or any other thing. I think it is very easy to take two minutes and just say, “Huh, I wonder what that person's experience is like?”
And maybe you're gonna guess some things wrong. That very well could be. I mean, even as I was talking, I'm fully aware of all the things that I'm not thinking about, that I'm probably missing. But even if you're just doing that little tiny toe dip into that question that you're asking yourself and being curious about somebody else other than you and your experience that you are an expert in, I feel like that's just such a beautiful way to bridge all of the gaps that we have in human understanding.
Jennie:
I think that's right. I think it's just being present too and being aware and also really pushing yourself when you encounter someone who has a difference to just acknowledge it. It's there, it's a difference. Like you said, it's part of the individuality and then move past it. Because Ruby's friend was able to do that because of was able to do that with her brother, Leo. They ended up having a relationship that Ruby was not really wanting, cuz, “ew, her best friend and her brother. Right.” But she saw him as more, she saw all of him because she was present enough to do that.
But if, if you are trying to understand people better, you have to be open to believing and hearing what their history is and what comes behind it. It is their personal story and it's the story of anyone else like them that they are kind of carrying with them. And that's an incredible weight.
Sarah:
It is an incredible weight. And I think, I again just love the fact that Coda did such a great job by having actors and actresses who have lived these real experiences in probably some shape or form. Because I think so much about movies where I've seen somebody who is supposed to be from Lebanon and they might be maybe of Mexican descent and they're having like a very thick fake Middle Eastern accent. Like, why are we doing that? <laugh> Why would we employ somebody who is not deaf to have to pretend like they're deaf in a movie? Or like, even movies. Like, I was thinking about this the other day cause Alex and I were talking about, um, Braveheart, um, and we were like, “Why did they hire Mel Gibson for the role of William Wallace, a Scottish person, who is not, you know, Mel Gibson is not Scottish.”
So I have all of these thoughts and I think it's just, it boils down to, it is important to see people as rich human beings on the silver screen. Like it just is, it's important to write these stories in a way that gives space to the fact that we are so complicated. We are not just one facet of, of our individuality. And we need to also give that space for actors and actresses to be able to shine in a way that is only possible by them. Troy Kotsur's character would not have shined without Troy Kotsur. I mean, I, I don't know. I'm his biggest fan. You need to do this if you have not seen this, you need to instantly, immediately after we're done go YouTube his acceptance speech for the Academy Award and you'll just cry. He'll cry so hard. Like, I <laugh> I watched it again this morning and I was like, “Oh, this Is so beautiful.” But it is a beautiful moment. Like you need to immediately go watch that.
Jennie:
I don't know if it could make me cry more than this section of the movie. There were two sections of the movie that had me just a mess. The first one started when then Ruby is having her end of year performance and she sings the duet with her love interest. And so her parents were watching and they're trying to be engaged in the moment where they turned off the sound.
And we experienced that musical performance from the perspective of her brother, her mom, and her dad. I got chills. I also felt truly humbled that I had been enjoying all of the things that I thought was like beautiful about the movie. Most of it was her music and the singing and they didn't hear any of that. But they loved her so much that they were happy to sit there and smile.
And from that moment on, we get to the point where Troy Kotsur's character, Frank, asked his daughter, “What were the words in your song,” out on that truck. And I mean, I've sat on some tailgates. I'm telling you, I've had tailgate conversations. This is my life <laugh> as someone from well Missouri. I get that. I know what that is. To sit outside and look at the stars with a family member, a loved one. And the way he is an actor knew to touch her, her throat to feel the vibration. Oh, did that, did that section just get you, just get you so big?
Sarah
Oh, it did, it did. but I think what got me even more was the audition scene. We see towards the end of the movie, right? She's there at Berkeley, she's on the stage, and they do such a great job of making the room feel very, very big and her feel very, very small. So we really get a sense of how like scared and tiny and vulnerable she probably felt in that moment.
And her parents weren't allowed in. But then we see that they kind of sneak in in the top row. And she had already started to, to sing, do her audition. And it's fine. It's okay. But then when she sees her family, you know, her foundation, her backbone, her everything there in the background to support her, she starts signing while she's singing and she glows and I'm tearing up just thinking about it, but we see one of the uh, sort of like hard-nosed audition dudes in the front kind of turn and, and see that her family is in the background.
Cuz they were sort of like, why is she signing all of a sudden? And just sort of that look, just that human connectedness of wow, “what a beautiful moment that I get to be witness to. And it's not just an audition. I'm seeing a moment of, true deep love between family.” I mean, seeing that whole thing I think was just one of the most beautiful scenes in a movie I've seen. And yeah, I know it sounds really cheesy, but it was beautiful.
Jennie:
But I think it's because it was used strategically. Because it was very predictable. Like, I knew what was gonna happen. I did, I knew for sure, the hundred percent, the knowing glance of like “oh yeah,” but they'd primed us for it because when I watched that scene, we had just come off of hearing the silence during the end of year recital.
And I knew whenever they went in there to watch her, they were just in there to watch her. They did not expect to even hear anything. And if that's not love for your kid, I don't know what is, or your sister. They just wanted to be physically present when she needed them and they didn't think they were going to hear anything.
And so whenever she started signing, I in my mind, tried to imagine what an eruption of meaning that would be for them. Because all of a sudden it goes from that silent space that it had been before to the beautiful lyrics of Joni Mitchell.
Sarah:
And I love that. I think, I think as we sort of close out this, this episode about this beautiful movie and about this beautiful family, I think that's such a good reminder just to ask the questions and, and keep your heart open. There’s this artist that I really like. She made this, collage picture, explosion of color. Basically, think Lisa Frank, but like a nice person, like better with the composition and no like dancing dolphins. So basically what I mean is they're colorful
Jennie:
<laugh> Okay, <laugh>.
Sarah:
Cause I'm like, what is Lisa Frank without dancing dolphins? She has this picture and I love it so much. I've bought every item of this that I can afford. And it just says, “eyes forward, heart open.” And I think that if, we approach interactions that we have with people, whether they're different from us in ways that we are aware of or not, I think it's asking the question and then keeping your eyes forward. You know, looking ahead, keeping your heart open.
And when you're able to do that, I think that people will be pleasantly surprised about what they're going to find. And I think that surprise is one of the most beautiful delights that we have in our lifetime experience.
Jennie:
What a beautiful way of putting that. And so that idea of having your your eyes forward and your heart open, how do you apply that to your own family and your own kids and watching those parents let go of their baby and letting her follow her own dreams, even if they don't understand it, and even if they're worried that the world might hurt her, cuz they don't know if she's good at singing or not. How did this film CODA affect how you look at your relationship and your commitments to your children and your family?
Sarah:
That's another really hard question. And I think what I try really hard to do is something that I know that I am not always successful at. I mean, real talk here, there are many times where, you know, I'm running around like the headless chicken kind of situation. But when I, in the quiet of the night or usually the quiet of the morning, I think a lot about my kids and I think about myself being a kid, you know, the child of my parents.
And what always feels most sort of true north and important to me in those, those quiet moments, is the idea that my parents' beliefs and dreams in me might not have been the things that I held in my heart as my own beliefs and my own dreams. And the same thing goes for my children and me.
And that kind of doesn't matter. That doesn't matter that, maybe Liam won't study music in college. Maybe Violet won't be a paleontologist. Maybe this is it for me. Maybe I won't do other things. And these are not the things that, you know, I think my parents would've necessarily chosen for me. I mean, they sort of basically told me as much that, they thought I was gonna do this or that.
But I want my children to know, and I have it here memorialized that I think their whole selves are beautiful and I accept their journey and I accept them and I know that they're going to fail. And I know that that's going to be hard. And I know that as hard as it is going to be for them to fail, it might just be a little harder for mommy to see that <laugh>. Cuz I will want to step in and stop all the hurt. But I'm not always going to do that because I also know that they're fully capable of surviving that and that they don't really need me as much as they need to listen to the beautiful human being that they are themselves.
And if I can teach them that, I can also tell that to myself. Because we're all on a journey here. We all want things, dream things are scared of things. What CODA taught me and what I hope my children learn, and what I have learned from my parents is that when you have a strong foundation and when you're loyal to your family or your friends or the people that you choose as your family, that there is no failure that is insurmountable. It will all be okay.
Jennie:
Oh my gosh, you have me tearing up because same for my, my kids, same for my relationship with my parents. And I think that the idea that CODA also taught me that, that that lesson that you are exactly as much as you need to be right now as you are. You have value and you have worth. And even if you have a deficit in one area, something that you're working on, something that makes life much harder for you, it doesn't mean that you don't have value. And it doesn't mean that you don't deserve respect and love.
I just can't think of a better film to wrap up our season with the idea that we can help people, we can listen to people, we can learn about people, we can watch these movies and share these stories to become better. And not just to become better, but to just kind of become more of who we really are. Right? Like, just to kind of dig in deeper and accept that.
Beautiful, I hope that your kids listen to this and get to hear that because I can't think of more powerful words to hear from a parent. And ultimately that's what Ruby heard from her parents, and it's what gave her the bravery to know that that safety net was always there for her and it gave them the bravery to let her go.
Sarah:
Absolutely. I think what I also love so much about doing this podcast is knowing that we are giving the opportunity for our children to hear our feelings that we might not get to completely always articulate in the heat of daily insanity. And so I think what's really special is that your kiddos are getting to hear the things that you are imparting every day with your actions.
But you know, now they're hearing this in your words in a way that, again, is memorialized and they can hear their mom's voice, they can hear you telling them all of these important things. I'm hoping that we can just carry that sense of support and, openness, into the new year for our families, for us, for anybody who's listening.
Jennie:
I agree. And I guess it's time for us to do our final Screen Sparks of the season and let these questions, you know, linger with you, share them with us. We have a website, so if you want to comment on the website, you're welcome to or we'll try to post on social media over the months that we’re off. I guess, do you wanna get us started with our first Screen Sparks question?
Sarah:
So we were talking a lot about all the different facets of our individuality today. Do you feel that there are certain aspects of your individuality that you don't feel are represented accurately or sufficiently in media? And does this matter to you or not? Maybe I'm alone in, you know, wishing that more Asian characters were represented by real Asian actresses. I don't know. I'm not sure. So we'd love to hear that.
Jennie:
The next question is, are there times in your life when you feel that your own parents and interests or dreams for you superseded your own desires? Or have there been times when you've inserted your own opinions, desires, dreams, into the lives of children you've worked with or influenced? And I think that's a great question. And I think that so often those insertions of desires or hopes or dreams or aspirations for people, they come from a place of love.
I think your heart can be very big and loving, but as a parent it's easy to, to love, love, love, love, love. But if your eyes aren't open and they're not forward, sometimes you can miss those signals. And so have you done that? I'm sure I have been guilty of it. And it's just because you love your kids so darn much, you want the world for them.
Sarah:
And then what was interesting to me is how Ruby sort of discovered very late in her high school career, that she was passionate and very talented, as a singer. So how do you know what your passion or your calling, or your motivation in your life is? Is it something that you've always known or is it something that you're day to day trying to figure out? Or does it change? You know, yesterday your passion was “x” and today it's “y,” like, that is something that is always, I think, forefront in my mind.
Jennie:
Absolutely. Same with this podcast. I think that that's it. It was a motivation and a passion that I think both of us had kind of simmering in the background, but when you move it to the front burner, you know, you get good things. They get to feel proud about something after 15 episodes. So that's pretty awesome. <laugh>.
You had the moment too about your discussion on New England. Are there places that resonate with you? I know that New England really resonated for Sarah and I both, we've had several episodes actually: Practical Magic, Hocus Pocus. There was some more, actually.
Sarah:
The VVitch.
Jennie:
Wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. We had a lot of New England things. So are there places that resonate with you and why? And what makes those places really special and unique? Because Sarah was exactly right that that was one of the most authentic representations of New England in CODA that I've seen.
Sarah:
And then our last question: what are some ways that you can educate yourself about the day-to-day experience of another person? I really hope that folks will take that question and really reflect on it. This is an important time of year. We're starting to get to the tail end of 2022 and starting to think about life anew in 2023. So I think that there really is not a better way to start 2023 with thinking about the experience of other people and what their life might be like.
Jennie:
And if it seems like a difficult barrier to cross or to come overcome, just watch a movie. We've given you a lot of recommendations this first season. And think about who you can share a movie with. It's a really great jumping off point to understand a little bit more what someone else's experience is like, and in a very small way, how did they experience a movie the same or in a different way than you.
And we are here to help you do that. We aren't going away, even though we won't be having our weekly Tuesday releases of new episodes. We still may have some little, little treats for you over the next few months. Little things, not necessarily full episodes as you've come to know and love, but while we are gone, we will still be active on social media.
And you can also always circle back through episodes that maybe you've missed or want to re-listen to. And, um, scroll through our social media and answer the questions or engage with the media that's already there, or recommend it to a friend. And after you've said, “Hey, watch CODA,” have ‘em watch CODA and then how would you both hop on over to our socials and share your input and your insights on it.
Sarah:
Yes, please stay connected with us. And we are just so grateful to have gotten to share this time with you, for our very first season of Screen Cares. This was a joy to make for you with Jennie. So please just look out for us. We will be back, towards the beginning of the awards season. So we are not gone. We will be back.
Jennie:
We will be back. We will see you here in 2023.
Outro, both hosts:
Thank you for letting us share our screens with you this week. We hope that you keep watching for the meeting behind the screen. Don't forget to like and subscribe to Screen Cares wherever you listen to your podcasts, check out our show notes for great info and to visit our website https://www.screencares.com or check out our social media pages for great resources. <music>