Ciel- It’s Past My Bedtime Transcript

Welcome Salut to it's past my bedtime. Today we have on CL a producer, a DJ and event organizer, pianist and also someone with a great fashion sense. CL started with a college radio station show that transformed into an event series called Work in Progress that was focused on bringing gender. The lineups her unique DJ style moving between different electronic subgenres like acid and house and tea. You know that we've been hearing a lot more from her lately. Have made her a staple in the underground club scene in Toronto and taken her to play at places like I don't know, you may have heard of it. Berghain, De school in Amsterdam and movement Detroit, the festival. She also produces. Beautiful, wonderful music. I have a bone to pick with her because the club scene she's been a part of building up has snatched my sleep over the years. It's time for her to. Pay up. So after her last Toronto gig, after a European Tour in the back of some warehouse and God knows ******* where I was about to take some of her sleep at 2:00 AM with a chat.

Ciel

Hello, thanks for having me.

First of all, how do you feel after playing the show and?

Ciel

I think it went pretty well. The background for the show is. I've known Fahad for a long time. He runs format. We used to kind of work together when I ran this party series with my friend Brian Wong called. It's not you, it's me. We did a lot of stuff with. Other promoters that were already doing things in Toronto. And always really like Fahad. But like I felt like, especially back then his scene felt very different from mine. I was not really playing techno. I started out playing really more like house and ambience, at least in Toronto, and I'm at this juncture in my career where. I'm playing a lot in Europe that of course affects my style and you know, when I first started playing Europe back in 2018. At that point I only really had played like opening sets for the most part. Like I would say like 90% of the sets I had played. That was, in my experience, were opening for other DJ's and I never no one ever taught me that like, oh, you have to, like, learn to play a headlining set when you play in Europe. And I think it took a few years of eating **** in Europe, to be honest, like getting heckled when I DJ French, people yelling allez, allez, allez like, which means, like, let's go. Let's go. Like the complaining that you're playing too soft or too slow and like. There were lots of times where I felt like really embarrassed and but you know, it's part of it. It's part of builds character and I just felt like the last few years I have found it challenging to play how I play in Europe here. I think people want to. You know it's a mixed bag when and and and a double edged sword when you come up in a city and you get a lot of support from people and I've felt really appreciative of like. All the people in Toronto who's like supported me since my early days. But those people also have this idea of, like, what kind of DJ I am, and they want they think of me as like the. Chill DJ or like someone that's like playing like you know, I don't know more mid tempo stuff, not like headlining, banging, whatever. Where the few times when I do do that, I feel like people are at least at my. Parties, they seem confused or like they're like, maybe just like, not sure what to do because people have expectations about you and that's fine. But deejaying is not the same thing as making music. I think when you're creating something, it's good to have a style. And of course it's good to have a style. You DJ, but that doesn't mean you just play one genre. And I basically was like Fahad, will you book me to play at your techno party so people can see that I actually can't play techno because I play it a lot in Europe, in Europe, you also have to play longer. You know, it's quite common to play four hours. That's that really is like my kind of favorite length, and doing that also got me to learn how to combine all the different genres I like to play in like 1, which I never get to do that here. Most sets here are like. 90 minutes, you know and but anyways, Long story short, he gave me. He was like, of course. Of course you can play and I'm glad I got to got to do that because I don't know when I bang it out like this for at my own parties. I I don't. It's almost like a blessing and a curse. Because that's like what it's like to be an artist. People want to pigeonhole you and yeah.

Into it. That's really interesting because we actually come back to that conversation a lot with our guests, which is about fan expectations as a producer, as a creator and as a DJ playing for a crowd. When you are exploring your art, when you are transitioning into other genres, when you are versatile like yourself, where you're. Mixing in with different sounds and bringing them together, but also dealing with fans. We're like oh, but they used to play this and I'm used to them playing this now. What's this? How do you? You know, kind of stand your ground and make that transition, but also like you obviously you respect your fans and you they've been with you on the come up. So it's you're kind of balancing is kind of a balance act. With that as well, so it's. It's a really difficult. Place to be sure where I wanted to go, where I wanted to ask you. I felt like it would be so inappropriate. For me to like. Go into this interview and not congratulate you. Eris drew a couple of I don't know, very recently announced that she's starting a new label vinyl only, but also with. That's her first release on that label. Won't be her own music. It's going to be your music, which I'm so thrilled for you. That's incredible. How did that come together?

Ciel

Well, she hit me up like in the pandemic in 2021. We've known each other and have been friends for like 3 years. Up until this point and. I was honestly surprised that she asked me because, like, you know, we always really connected and we're really great friends and we've played together, but I just always felt like I wasn't really at her level. You know, she's blown up in the last few years, but she's a veteran. She's been doing this for a really long time in Chicago, and it was quite intimidating. The one time we B2B together in Chicago and I was like, train wrecking so bad. I was like, Oh my God.

Were you actually trained wrecking, or was it your thoughts?

Ciel

I was. I was actually trained wrecking, but you know, whatever train wrecks happened. But part of the process.

Part of the process.

Ciel

But yeah, she asked me and I was like, oh, that's actually like, I'm blown away by that. That's amazing. And she told me that I was the. The catalyst for her starting this this label because I had put out so much music during the pandemic that were band camp only she was like I really think they should be on vinyl. They're really amazing and she. Told she pitched to me, which tracks she wanted to put out, and then we figured out the track listing, and it was a huge honor like. I think. Up until this point, it had taken me a really long time to gain a sense of confidence about my production, but the pandemic, you know, I know it was really hard for a lot of people, but I actually love lockdowns. I think for me, I'm kind of. Like an extroverted introvert and the older I get, the more introverted I am. And I was really burned out before the pandemic with touring the touring and existing in this. Industry is like. Kind of insane. It makes people feel insane. It makes me feel insane and like the competitiveness and always wondering like, why am I not doing this? Or why did I get left out of that was like. Enough to make anyone feel like bad about themselves. Touring is great, but it's not something I want to do for a long time, and to me, I'm the happiest when I'm like, at home and playing around home during the week. I could just go to the studio every day and make music and. I really like that kind. Regimented day-to-day work and during the pandemic like I worked on so many releases. But I also like wrote my album. I got a grant from the government to do that, which like, saved my life, really financially, when we weren't really making any income and. It just gave me a huge sense of self-confidence that I never really had about my production. I also did my first live set at Nutech in 2021 and so. I am a producer before first and foremost that DJ I always thought I would be DJ first producer second, but DJ. While amazing, I feel like it's a very momentary kind of. You know, happy feeling and then it's over and it's not really that fulfilling, you know, making music. It's like. I can't put into words how satisfied and good it feels to finish the song and be really into it and excited about it and actually like can't wait to play it in a DJ set. It makes me more excited to DJ DJ, you know, I've been doing it for a really freaking long time. I'll always love. But like. To me, it's almost like short term gains like you have these great moments. You could also have really **** moments, you know, not every DJ site is like. What we just had now you know, I would say a lot of my sets when I'm on tour are not good. I don't feel good about them. Maybe they're fine, but like, I just don't have that confidence when I'm out there like I do here. Basically just to say that like her wanting to put it out, it was very affirmative at a time when. I wasn't even sure if I was ever even going to tour again, to be honest, when the pandemic was happening, I was like, oh God, it's like who even knows? Like maybe I should just try to focus on making the music stuff so when she was like I want to do this compilation and it's like almost like a best of of like. And I was like, wow, that's like. That's so nice.

It is really affirming.

Ciel

It's really nice.

In that period of, like, trying to figure out what's your next move. And I guess some of a little bit feeling like uninspired from the djaying and where that's headed and feeling like producers, kind of what you like getting that affirmation that you're making the right decision and what you're enjoying.

Ciel

Yeah, it was so encouraging.

Is resonating, yeah.

Ciel

It was really encouraging. And she's somebody I've really looked up to you for a long time.

Of course, yeah.

Ciel

And she is a much bigger platform than me, so I really appreciated. The fact that she was willing to take a chance on that and I worked with a local Toronto artist to I art directed the cover as she illustrated it.

I saw that on your Instagram today.

Ciel

And yeah, I'm like, super into it. I'm happy with how it turned out. My only fear is that it's going to take away some of the shine from when I actually released. My real debut album's not like the.

We've got, we're in a, we're in a room back here with some drinks. And stuff. So it it it's all good. But no, I totally hear what you're saying. And in terms of, you know, sort of articulated. How you feel when making music? I can. I mean, I assume I I can understand some of the joy in that when you're deejaying, especially when you're, if you're mixing other people's music. There's there is a lot of creativity and a lot of work that goes into that. There's a lot of joy, but something about creating something that's yours that never existed in the world before and like. Building something that was never there from scratch and then kind of like putting a nice little bow on it and kind of bringing it to the world and getting to play with it, play it at your own show. Even is. Sorry, really beautiful.

Ciel

Yeah, I mean, like, I feel like music making is therapeutic in ways that most DJ sets are not like some of them are. Some DJ sets are therapeutic and you kind of feel like your brain has reset at the end of a really great DJ set, but those happen like once or twice a year. Making music even on days where I feel like. I didn't really get the best results. It and like for example, this past January I felt like I had a whole month of feeling really kind of creatively blocked and I had never felt creatively blocked since I started making music. And I think part of the reason was. I had sort. Gotten into this rut with my workflow where I was using the same tools all the time starting my projects the same way, but all it took was like to use this new piece of gear that I've never used before. I'm going to use this plugin that I've never used before. I'm going to start this track in a completely different way. And it almost felt too easy to unblock myself and. Because I also make music with other people, I feel like there's something that's really special about that process as well, where? I don't know. It's something. Just like the the combining of different energies and also trying to compromise and figure out like where you could meet in the middle. You know, there's people that I've worked with that honestly, their solo music is not really like my absolute favorite. But then when we work together. It's like something new is created that's like the, you know, a little bit from you, a little bit from you. Then you create something new and that's really surprising and wonderful and like. It also teaches me to get along with people better. I think that that's like an invaluable skill as well. DJing is almost kind of a solitary experience. You're up there, everybody's watching you and it's like, you know, like and like I said earlier, before the interview started, there are a lot of things about DJ. Culture that I find really cringe. It's like this, like celebrity worship of like, Oh my God, you're so cool. Like, oh, I'm wearing my designer outfit and I'm like, you know, on the cover of days. And, you know, I'm wearing a head to toe, like Prada and, like. And to be honest, like, I kind of hate all. I think it's really disgusting, yeah.

Speaker

We're bringing so many Frances.

I want to take you and.

Ciel

Yeah, yeah.

I'm so happy you're just doing it.

Ciel

I'm just not into it. Like, I think I want to be successful as a DJ, but I feel like there's a lot more element of, like, you have to sell your soul to get to a level of success where, like. I could buy a house, you know, like I never thought I could. Buy a house. I worked in publishing before made $27,000 a year. It was not a thing that you could buy a house with. But you know, once I started DJ Moore, I was like, oh, maybe I could actually, you know, pool my money with my boyfriend, and we could put a down payment on a condo that would be sick. You know, but like to get to that level of money as a DJ, I feel like you have to do all sorts of ********. That's like ******* annoying, you know, you gotta. I don't know. Like I started getting sent clothes from labels now like they'll, they'll hit me up and they're like, oh, we wanna send you our new line. And I'm like, oh, hell yeah, that's great. I love free ****. And then I'm like, oh, wait, am I going to become one of those DJ's that's like posting a picture in front of the club. Being like I'm wearing, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah.

Thanks to XYZ.

Ciel

I'm like, I'm like, I hate that. That's like to me, not what underground culture is about. But as DJing has become more commercialized and like more and more popular, we're like absorbing a lot of things from more commercial spaces like EDM. To be honest, I think EDM experience is kind of like. Bubble bursting in the last few years and a lot of those people migrated into techno and into houses and more underground scenes, and that's cool. That's fine. You know, I'm not like a snob about that, but I think there is just. This lacking in this like. Ethos that I personally found really special about dance music and it was what drew me to underground dance music. Was this sort of like iconoclastic very anti establishment anti selling out commercialized you know and like.

That's how it started. That's where the culture began.

Ciel

Yeah, like rave. What is a rave now?

It was counterculture, a rave.

Ciel

People call ultra raves. And I'm like, that's not a ******* rave. That's a corporate festival and it's not a rave and and you know, it's a far, far like place. From you know, the free parties of like the 90s, when people would just throw crazy raves in a field and people would go and they'd be like 5000 people and like, and they're playing really weird music, you know, just like, bizarre 150 BPM. Like loopy. I don't even know like mixed with like ******** so.

Yeah, whatever the **** they want, yeah.

Ciel

I guess because of that's basically a roundabout way of saying that like I don't know, I feel kind of disillusioned about a lot of DJ culture. Like on a purely like purely DJ's, you know, I think. I always like DJ's that actually produce music as well. I just think it makes you more round well-rounded as a. As a DJ. And it also makes me feel like I don't know that you're interested in more than just like being or like the center of attention because making music is like. It takes a. Lot of patience and like dedication and like banging your head against the wall and getting nothing and you have to really, really want it and really love it. To want to dedicate yourself to that, whereas like deejaying has very quick rewards, you know you. Take a crash course a one year of practicing on CDJS and all of a sudden you're like mixing like, you know, 90s techno and just feeling so great about yourself. And it's like, yeah, I'm like, I'm that *****. You know? I'm like, I'm out there, I'm doing that. But like. People turn on you so quickly on the dance floor. One minute you're hot, the next minute they're heckling at you. They're heckling you and telling you that was the worst DJ set I've ever seen. You know, I've actually had. That's never. Thank God never happened to me, but I have friends who DJ in Europe and in Europe. It's ******* crazy out there. People will say that to you. They do not give a ****.

I'd imagine Amsterdam. I can see it happening in two seconds.

Ciel

They in Germany, they will tell you. I don't know. Are you lost? Like like should you be here like I've actually had friends tell me that people would say that like. To them about how much they hated their DJ sets and stuff like that. So yeah. I don't hate DJ. I love DJ.

It's a different energy. You again went to so many places that I wanted to go to. So like, thank you. But I'm gonna pry a little bit more on. Some of the. Things one of the things you were talking about, where was collaborations? I know you were talking about how DJing can be a little bit competitive and you were talking about the collaborative. When you're making music and I sense. That's kind of the a nice relief too, when you're making music. It's less of this competitive nature because you get to collaborate with other artists and you're kind of in the same boat together trying to make this work.

Ciel

Yeah, yeah.

Generally, your collaborations though are really great, but I wonder for someone who's such a versatile artist in terms of their sounds, you're not. It's not just like techno and the abrasive or the floor away, but we're hearing acid. We hear the brakes and the acid breaks. We hear house from you. When you're that versatile, I I I sense that collaborating with you, whoever collaborates with you, really cherishes how versatile you are. But I wonder for you how difficult it is to maintain the essence of you when you have such versatility. Is it difficult to? Narrow down what it is you're trying to achieve on a.

Ciel

Well, I think, I think I don't really worry about it that much because I. Always bring a part of me, almost in spite of myself, even if I didn't want to. Make a sandy track. I end up making a sandy track. I'm just like, I think if it comes from you, you can't fake it. So I'm not so concerned about that and. Anyway, I feel like the beauty of collaboration is that it's not necessarily about you or the other person. It's about what the two of you make together. Totally new and I also tend to pick people to make music with who are also really into a diversity of styles. And so in that case, it's always really good to be extra communicative before you start working to be like. This is what I want. To make let's you know, have a plan of how to get there, because. You might each have your own idea about what you want to make, and it's like playing a B2B set. You know you have to communicate with the DJ that you're B2 being. When I first started B2 being, I thought that like people didn't really talk, they were just going with the vibe. But actually all the DJ's that are really good at B2B, they plan ahead of time. They like share their playlist with each other. They talk about like what kind of energy they wanna bring, what genres they wanna play, where they wanna start and how they wanna end. And those are. That's what being a professional is about, you know, open communication. So making music is kind of like that. But sometimes, you know, it's. It's harder to. Have happy accidents when there's more than one person, because what is a happy accident to you might not be a happy accident. The other person, and you're just constantly negotiating the differences in your likes and dislikes versus that person. It's not always easy. Sometimes it's really hard. Like I just wrote an EP in Berlin on tour with a very good friend of mine, and it's almost harder to make music with someone you're very close with than it is to make music with somebody that you kind of just only make music together because. You really care about them and you care about like, you know their feelings. And so part of the studio process is, like, spent worrying about things. Maybe I wouldn't be worrying about if I was making music with someone I didn't know as well. You know what I mean.

It's like the old like don't work with your friends, cause it's just it's really difficult for the feedback for sure.

Ciel

Yeah. Yeah, but.

Like collaborating, yeah.

Ciel

And then we're disagreeing about lots of, you know, because. That person, as well as myself, we both have very strong opinions about what we like and what we dislike, and there is some overlap between our styles, but there's also tons that don't overlap at all, and so I feel like the first few days of working together was just us trying to negotiate those different. Things and trying to figure out how we could compromise, how to stand our ground about being firm, about what we like and don't like while not being like a fascist. And I think by the end we're like. Just so in love with each other, because we made something that was really amazing and it took time to get there. You know, we'd be banging our head against the wall for like hours and then something would click and then it. Was like.

Speaker

Yeah, we did it.

Ciel

And then it just felt like, so invigorating and like it also made us feel closer together, like friendship, wise and. I just remember watching. All those like like Project Runway like the OR like Top Chef, all those like competition reality shows where like every time they did the episode where it's like team challenges, everyone would freak out and be like Oh my God, I can't do this and they would have a meltdown. And I'm like now, like I didn't understand it back then because I wasn't creating. Now I am creating I create with. I'm like a collaboration *****, to be honest, if I can even say that word, I'll collaborate with anybody and and I think now I really look down at those people that are like I can't collaborate. Oh my God. The world is ending because I think if you can't do that, then like.

I think it's there's something frightening cause I think when people are used to having so much control themselves, even in making music, they're so much control creating their own music when they have to collaborate, it's like, oh ****. Now I have to compromise. Now I have to communicate and now have to negotiate, and I have to give feedback.

Ciel

Right.

It seems terrifying and it's like. How do I relinquish this control?

Ciel

And I also think that our society, the way that we conceive of art and artists and what makes like a genius art artist versus a non genius artist, is that like people are obsessed with the idea of like having a singular vision, someone that is like, very singular in their approach like. Somebody who like, only plays techno speciality is like something that's very prized in the art world, but I actually. I'm opposed to that because I think people are complicated and we have layers and we're interested in more than one thing and I think I would kill myself if I had to spend my entire life just making one style of music and just deejaying one style of music because, like, what is the point of living if you can't like? I don't know. Like taste everything, no.

Yeah, I do think there's definitely a thing in the culture where there seems to be a lot of. Currency placed on artists who create one kind of music. It's one very particular sound, but. When you think. Of the artists who've had a lot of longevity in their. What a with an amazing body, though.

Ciel

Amazing body of work, yeah.

Ultimately, even people with that opinion have a hold and high regard have a lot. Of respect for. Don't tend to have one sound, they are they have an extensive set of sounds that they glue together and do a really good job at bringing together.

Ciel

Because just like just like. Their their lives, their careers also grow right. They learn things and like, that's also like why I love to collaborate because I learned from other people and I think that's so important. I think we tend to in electronic music. We're obsessed with this like. This like person who does everything you know, DJ, producer, arranger, composer, or musician, sound engineer, that you do everything and like you do everything yourself because. Is I guess because that's sort of the DIY spirit.

I was just going to say like, yeah, yeah.

Ciel

You know that we, but like I actually think that like it's kind of psychotic because it's not like how the rest of the world is that if you make music in any other genre, you're collaborating with other people. And I also think that's the thing about like. DJs and DJ culture underground dance music culture people are really afraid to admit that they can't do something. It's like. People are gonna call you out.

Yes, that was the first thought I was like, I was reading an interview you did about when you started making music and how it was kind of like you started learning Ableton and then a couple of months later, you kind of had your first release that came out, but you were talking about learning and playing around with Ableton and like, not feeling like an expert right off the bat. Going back to a friend and like letting them hear some of your stuff and taking that feedback and working on it. And I I was reflecting on my own reaction to reading that cause I. Was like I. Have never heard anyone who DJ's produces anyone talk about. Working through Ableton and Learning Ableton and getting feedback from anybody in the community on what their music sounds like because it's very much like I did this, I came out of the womb know knowing how to do all of this ****. Like I've been amazing from the start. No one can say anything different. You just don't hear or any.

Ciel

Well, I mean like, I just feel like that's very egotistical and not like reflective of reality.

Other perspective and.

Ciel

Yes, I mean like I learned music from a very young age because I was trained and I'm used to thinking of music as something that, like you learned from like a teacher. I'm not a self-taught pianist, you know, I I learned that like I went to school for it with production. People think that like, you know, you gotta like just. Learn how to do it. There's like this weird thing with B2B's where like some DJs are really. Protective of their stuff, where like they're playing with somebody and their track is falling out of sync, right? Although feel some type of way if their DJ partner fixes their platter.

OK.

Ciel

To make it not out of St. You know, some DJ's will hate that. Some DJ's will be like, don't touch my platter, even though we're literally playing together. We're A-Team and if you are train wrecking, it reflects. Poorly on the both of us. Yes. And I remember, just like last weekend, I played in Hannigan. I can't pronounce it Hannigan. Yeah, it's like Groningen, but it's pronounced chroniken. Or something. Yeah, yeah, I played there. It was amazing. I played this festival and then after I played my friend. I was also playing the festival and they asked me and my friend the B2B at the after party and I was like, yeah, sure, we'll do it and we're like playing together. And then there's one point where like. He was mixing and it was kind of funny, I think. Not gonna lie. It was a little bit, uh getting. To be good dog. Good dog, good dog.

Yeah, yeah.

Ciel

You know? And then I was standing in front of my CDJ. He was standing. And so I started moving my platter in the opposite direction to try to match it.

Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

Ciel

And he saw, and I was doing a very low key way. I didn't want people to see that I was fixing it for him. But he saw me and he was like, thank you. I was like, ohhhhhh thank I appreciate you not freaking out at me. For doing this, because some people are, like really sensitive about. It's just very competitive. I think DJing overall and like people feel constantly defensive about their place in this world because there's so many people that. Want to be DJ's and you know I've been there. I've definitely felt weird about someone touching my platter, but I that was a long time ago when I didn't have nearly. The amount of like self-confidence that I do now about my DJ now if somebody did that, whatever go off, yeah.

Yeah, I'm sure there's some insecurity related to that, too, right? When, especially if you're starting off, there's a lot of competition. It seems like there's a lot. Of yeah. And especially as a.

Ciel

Woman, you feel really easily triggered about. Like, are people insinuating that like I don't belong here? Yeah, but sometimes in a way where, like, I'm almost overthinking it. Like, they actually don't mean anything negative at all, but I perceive it to be because I'm already kind of like I got my defenses up, you know, and I feel like. It took me a long time of doing this and like. Paying my dues or whatever before I sort of lost that oversensitivity I still get sensitive about stuff, absolutely, but a lot of the stuff that used to really make me feel like unsure about myself, I don't.

You don't get there anymore.

Ciel

I feel, yeah.

That's a good place to be. And I hope producing, I guess, has provided some of that extra boost in confidence.

Ciel

Yeah, I think that was the thing. Yeah, definitely. It's like there were, yeah.

As someone who's been deejaying for a little bit now, and more recently I started experimenting with making. This really resonated with me, which is I realize that the music I make is different from the music I typically DJ, and when I made that transition, I felt like it would be this very easy. It would be connected. They would work well together. I'd start playing my own music, but it's hard to articulate, but that's not what happened. The music I was making is different from the stuff I DJ in some ways and I read somewhere again, paraphrasing, but something about how when you started making music as well, it's a little bit different from what you usually DJ and you're working on sort of bridging that difference. It's hard for me to articulate why. That happens do. You have any idea what's your theory on that?

Ciel

Of course, it's very easy to explain why that happens, because the thing that you use to make music versus the things that you use to DJ are totally different things. You know, making music and DJing are not the same thing, and a lot of times when you're making music. You have this urge. To you're almost like. Beholden to the experience of creation itself, and sometimes things just kind of happen accidentally. Or, if you're like me, for example, I'm a product of my musical education, and for most of my life I wasn't listening to techno. And so I can't just get rid of that part of me. And so a lot of the times when I first started making music, I was making very melodic stuff took me. It was also the lack of skill, the lack of technical understanding of like. OK, I can write a melody for like a pop melody, but how do you write a techno melody? What makes something more suitable for that? What makes something more suitable for this? And that won't happen right away. You have. To like learn more. To get there, you know. And that's that's fine. You know? That's totally OK. I think I remember like my second EP. I was, like, obsessed with this idea of, like, I will never use an arpeggiator because I'm a classically trained musician. So I'm going to write out this entire. Harp, I'm going to write it out note by note. So like my my second record has this like, break beat song that has this. Like do, do do do. It has this ARP. I wrote that note by note and then like the commitment, yeah, programmed it in. Now I write lots of arts that are not note by note, programmed in I because I feel like what's the point of that? What is? There's no.

What am I adding?

Ciel

I mean, it might be more unique. To, but you can use the tools to make it more unique without having to write. Then no like 1 by 1.

It's just some weird. Mental satisfaction, yeah.

Ciel

It's a weird mental thing, and at the end of the day, we're a product of our circumstances and our background, our experience and you might feel like you kind of have to get it out. You have to get out the stuff that you want to make that like you feel inclined to make, that you don't necessarily. Feel inclined to play, but it's part of the road of like getting there. You know you have to do something for a million times before you learn it. And maybe that's part of your progress process. You know, like, I've been making music since 27. It's now 2023 and I feel like it's only within the last year that I've been able to make music that I would actually play in my DJ sets.

So that's, I mean, that's really encouraging to hear. Thank you. I think it's something about electronic music as well. I think it's gotten this cred and it's probably. Changing but for a long time was like oh, it's just laptop music. They're just what are they? It's not real music. And I think there's something that like latched on the back of my head as someone who's also like, classically trained in the sense on piano and guitar and whatever. So I'm like, oh, I can't use an arpeggiator. I gotta put this in myself and prove that. I'm actually doing something and it's such a weird.

Ciel

That's your inner Luddite speaking, yeah.

Yes, it is internalized. Someone Like You again. We're talking about versatility. Lots of different sounds you play around with a lot of sounds, I feel like. Other artists like yourself, other performers like yourself, other musicians like yourself, are often they they have a really keen sense of the culture, the music scene, the sounds that people resonate with that resonate with people internationally, what's working, what's not working, both in the underground, both in the mainstream. And if they? So wish to make something that appeals more to the masses. They do a really great job at it. Has there ever been a temptation to say **** it? It would be so much easier if I just started making music more for the masses or started collaborating with someone more in the mainstream.

Ciel

Uh, I mean, I don't hate pop music. I definitely. I just made an edit of the Skrillex of a Skrillex song from his album that like. For some reason got like so many downloads and people were really like stoked about it. And I never thought that I would like a Skrillex song. Yeah, but I love the Skrillex album. I think it's so good and like.

We'll expand until albums and I was. Like, wait a minute.

Ciel

And I'm really a believer in judging music for what it is and not like who the artist is or what they've done before. You know, every new record you put out, you should be judged based on that in itself. And I think actually it's really hard to write a nice pop song that having that a pop sensibility is a thing most people lack that make underground dance music. And it's actually like not something that I would poo poo at because I think it's something that is really challenging. And I remember on my last EP I tried to write a pop song and it was such a massive failure and it ended up turning into like a really nice track. It was like the fifth track on the EP and like people really loved it. But like the experience just taught me that like, you know, there are a lot of things that seem really simple. But the things that are the simplest are often the most difficult to get. Right, you know.

I appreciate that. And I think sometimes, yeah, same with pop music. There is a lot of difficulty to, I think create something that does appeal to a large group of people. It is something difficult to I think get right. But that's a whole other conversation. You have a label, parallel minds releasing music. That's really spotlight spotlighting Toronto artists on that. So you do have somewhat of a hand, I guess, in shaping kind of the underground club culture in Toronto. You've been involved in it for a while. Where do you? Think it's headed and where do? You wish to see it head.

Ciel

I wish there were more producers here. I think we have a big problem here. It's a lot of people that are DJs and want to be stars and to me that is we can't have a scene of just deejays and no producers, you know, who are you going to play? In your sense, you know when you think about it and like, what's the difference between here and Montreal? What makes Montreal such a cool scene is because there's tons of music that's coming out of there and I. We have a long way to go. I think there are really amazing producers here, but. I'm kind of. Still waiting and looking for more women that are producing music that we find like. Like I'm always asking my female friends who are DJs. When are you going to start? Do you? I'll give you an Ableton lesson like I'm always like, yo, come on over. Let me teach you how to use Ableton. I want all my girlfriends to start making music, but like. I don't know what it is about here. I feel like maybe it's. Just like the the. The stress of living in the city, everything costs so much ******* money and everyone has a full time job. It's really hard to find time to make music. And making music is not glamorous like DJing, DJing. Like I said, it's short term gains, but I swear to you that the feeling that you get from like, actually making something that you're really happy with, that you can play is like. So much more special than, at least for me. I mean, some people just genuinely love being the center of attention, and they're not interested in producing. That's fine. More power to them. I think if we want the city to be a world class scene, we need to actually have more producers, you know, more producers that are like blowing up and doing things. DJs need to be producing music all the time. I don't think I don't buy into this idea that there are producers and there are DJs. You can't. That not all DJs should be producer. Producers aren't like some magical Peacock unicorns that are, like, born out of the womb like ready to produce. You know, I never thought I would be doing this. The only reason that that's the only thing that sets me apart from other people is that I like really wanted to do it. We have much to improve in that arena, so that's that's kind of my thought. About it.

Here first we need more producers in Toronto and then hit up CL when you've got.

Ciel

Yeah, send me your.

Demos, demos we're about to get booted out of here, so I'm going to wrap this up. Thanks for listening. Thanks for being on the show, CL. It was really. Great speaking with you.

Ciel

Nice to talk to you. Thanks for having me.

Speaker

Well, good night.

Ciel

Good night everybody.

Speaking to CL was inspirational and encouraging. Very therapeutic, actually. She's so open and honest about things producers really shouldn't feel weird about sharing, but it's great to hear it. She's really generous about sharing her thoughts and reflections. Seals First event series, work in Progress, I think. It is such an apt way to describe her. She's proudly a work in progress, constantly evolving her perspective, her approach, what music is for her. And I think something we should probably all be doing as well, regardless of what work we're doing, creative work doesn't happen overnight. We know this. It's a process and your work will always be a work in progress. We are always changing and so will our music. As Ciel was talking about. Frankly, I'm not saying anything mind-blowing here, but it's just refreshing to hear it out loud and so explicitly when I think the scene is often so saturated with producers flexing how great they are at what they do, be a little humble *******. So thank you, CL. We talked about her upcoming release on Airstream's, new label, ecstatic additions. She's out on tour again and just released a track with CFCF, which I found out about as I'm recording this. All those links are in the description, so check them out. Make sure to rate the pod. The pod. If you'd like, I'll see you in a few.