PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - EPISODE 065

[MM] GETTING A DIFFERENT PERSPECTIVE WITH KRISTYN MILLER

Please note: This transcript was created with the assistance of AI technology. While we strive for accuracy, the text may contain errors and should be verified against the original source for critical uses.

Annemie Tonken  00:00

Welcome to mini mentoring. A weekly bonus episode of This can't be that hard. Every Friday, I share a conversation that I've had with one of you my amazing listeners about a problem or issue that's got you stuck in your photography business. We set the timer for 15 minutes and see how much progress we can make. And sometimes 15 minutes is all you need to find clarity or achieve your next breakthrough. If you've got an issue that you'd like to have featured on the show, stick around at the end to find out how to reach out. But for now, let's dive in Christian Miller, it is so nice to have you on this can't be that hard. How are you today

00:34

on a man is a total delight. I'm so excited to get to chat with you.

Annemie Tonken  00:38

And it's been way too long since I saw you in person, but it is really nice to see you on the screen. A lot has happened since I last saw you in person.

00:47

Decades of life.

Annemie Tonken  00:49

Lifetime. Exactly. I know it's been an amazing year this month. But yeah, with everything that has been going on, when you reached out, I guess now it's almost been like a month or six weeks ago, last weeks. And when you reached out, we sort of had this back and forth. And I was like, Oh, this could be a really good mini mentoring. So I'm excited even though a lot has happened in those six weeks in terms of what we're talking about. I'm excited to kind of break that all down with you and hear, hear how it went and then sort of talk through where you are now. So instead of speaking vaguely and continuing to do that I am going to I'm gonna set my timer. And and I'm just going to have you jump in and sort of give everybody a sense of like, where you were then what's happened in the meantime, and where you are now. Sound good?

01:37

totally honest. Do it start the timer. Sounds good. Ready, set, go. Okay, so the mini session, and I have been frenemies for a long time. And then COVID times, I really was feeling like I needed to do something different. And the simple sales system seemed in your approach. And the simple sales system seemed like a really magical way to kind of bridge what I wanted to provide for the subset of my audience that can't afford or isn't prioritizing their budget for a full session, and the full section experience, but still give me a way to kind of tap into those people and give them a great experience. And also make a little bit more money than I was making with the mini session carousel, if you will, there's something wrong with mini sessions, but for my life, for my experience where I am right now, I just didn't feel like a great fit. So my quandary was, you know, I have this, this is my fifth year, almost six year in business. And I have a whole subset of full session clients that I just was not prepared yet to take the leap to say, Guess what, guys, I'm doing this completely differently now. Right? Do it this way with a session fee and a collection fee? Because this you know, body of folks that I work with would be like what's happening? Many session audience seemed like a perfect place to try it out. So my question for you was like, Am I allowed to do that? Because, you know, we always feel like we have to have permission before we make a huge leap like that, especially with many sessions. Yeah, because I feel like clients in the fall, if you live, especially in New England, where I live, it's like automatic, of course, you're a photographer doing fall mini session, a session that everyone does. So I did an experiment. And I created essentially, I took your approach and the simple Sale system, which I use for pick time, which is magical. And I blasted it out to all of my mini session clients, and then kind of like took a deep breath and drink eight cups of coffee. And it's I mean, false, this fall is still kind of going for us here. But so far, it's been awesome. Oh, good. And I'm kind of surprised. I've definitely had, you know, a big concern that I had going into, it was like our clients gonna really understand they have a session fee, and then all of their post collection post session collection purchases, and God forbid, what happens if I have a client that's like dissatisfied, right, all of our own insecurities bubble up when we try new things. And so far, it's worked really, really well, I have only shipped five of the 15 that I have sold. And, you know, you could say, for me, it was half session. So that's one session a day, not these five sessions in one day kind of factories that I would do with mini sessions. But I'm gonna I'm gonna make a good chunk more money than I would have if I was doing mini sessions. And I'm able to give a really personalized experience even for this audience. That is, it's an aspirational purchase for them still just a bit, but it's accessible for those clients that we're we're still kind of into the mini session purchase idea. So I still don't know about making the leap to full session. So yeah, so thing that I'm on the fence about, and I'm so curious to hear what you think knowing that that's kind of the universe that I'm coming in, in one. Yeah.

Annemie Tonken  04:40

Well, I think what is one of the things that I love about you know, this concept of the half session instead of the mini session is that it really is a bridge. It's a closer bridge for that aspirational client. Then, like a true mini session is because not only is it and stretching them a little bit more in terms of their like financial investment. But it's also, you're able to give them a much better sense of what having a real session with you is and what settling into the rhythm of a session is rather than that, like wham bam, Thank you, ma'am. Mini session thing that doesn't really showcase. I mean, at least for me, when I've done many sessions in the past, I'm like, hi, come here. Okay, I'm gonna take a picture. Okay, get out like it's so it feels frenetic, even if I'm not maybe that maybe it doesn't come across that way. But it feels that

05:33

way. So, you know, for those of us, I think, who are on the more photo journalist and of the family spectrum, which, yeah, but like speed of a mini is so fast.

Annemie Tonken  05:43

Yeah. I've never participated in any of those, like speed dating things that people do. But I feel like it's like the difference between a speed date and a long day versus let's have a cup of coffee, you know, maybe we could stretch it to an hour. Anyway, I digress. So I think that that was really smart to sort of try it out that way. And when you first reached out to me, and you were like, Can I do this? It was like, Yeah, of course you can. I think the thing that most people when they, at least the people who go so far as to purchase buy into the blueprints, so they've invested money, and they're sort of mentally prepared to kind of switch their entire business over. But I have a lot of students who are like you very well established in their businesses where it is, you know, when you're new, you can switch directions very easily, because you don't really have many people to turn around and explain, oh, this is different now, or Oh, my prices are change, you know, are changing, or the way that I run my sessions is changing, like, all those things are very nimble. So that's a benefit. You know, on the on the downside, you're, you're faced with so many decisions, and you don't have a lot of like experience to draw from. So So I do have a fair number of people who have a deep client roster, and that is one of the biggest obstacles for them is figuring out like, Am I willing to jump in? So I actually think that it was a really smart idea for you to do the work, but not necessarily put the pressure of that on your entire, your whole setup. So yeah, so I guess I'm, I'm happy to talk you through where what your concerns are at this point. But I'm also curious just to to hear about those, like now that you've been through this? Granted, with only you said, Five,

07:35

have shipped five of the 50. Right,

Annemie Tonken  07:37

so you've you've been through a small subset, but 15 is a pretty decent sample size, in terms of working with people about it. Where have you had hiccups that you were like, Oh, I'm not sure if my client base is ready? Or what are your biggest concerns?

07:53

I mean, I feel like for me, still, you know, my full session clients, they invest a good bit of money in the experience. And, you know, I'm happy to say I think most of them would say that they get that value back plus some, um, but I think for me, that shift of having a conversation with a client in a full session capacity, and, and starting with a session fee versus the post session collection, because I feel and this is totally in my brain, right? My investment when it comes to a full session, especially if I'm going to someone's home for you know, an hour and a half, two hours with a newborn. I'm so already in it. That to me, I'm having a hard time I think being able to figure out how exactly tip to really explain it in a way that doesn't, that still doesn't feel salesy, which is so funny, because with the half sessions, it's it's just falling out of my face. It's just you know, your scripts plus, you know, things that I was already doing, it's as easy. This is how it works. Yeah. hope you love it, because I love it too. Yeah. But it feels like the stakes are a little higher with a full session.

Annemie Tonken  08:55

They are a full session client. Yeah. So tell me what you do with your full session clients right now. What's the structure?

09:04

It's, you know, it's funny, I have a lot of the infrastructure in place that you use, and that I, you know, learned to refine from the blueprint already. We have a phone conversation, we talked about what they're hoping for, we talked about what I do, my collections that I offer for my full session, clients all include session, the actual session and the time in the editing all that stuff, and then there's some version of an all inclusive, so, the lowest collection is, you know, a certain number of, Digital's know print credit, and then it kind of goes up from there, but it's all in one package. And when do they pay so they'll do a deposit to book the session, and then they pay the remainder, usually a couple of days before the actual session itself. So by the time I arrive, everything is paid for whether they're getting an album or they have $150 and print credit. It's all been kind of taken care of. Okay, which ironically feels like less pressure to me for full session clients than it does when they're due. Being a session fee, and then I'm like, oh, which collection? Are they going to purchase? Images?

Annemie Tonken  10:05

Yeah. Yeah. Such

10:06

a mind game.

Annemie Tonken  10:07

It's such a mind game. This is hilarious. Like I was expecting you to say, I don't know what I was expecting. But I was because what you're explaining to me, just from an outsider's perspective, going with a more simple sales structured approach is actually way less pressure on your clients. They're not pre buying anything all they're doing. I mean, would you return their deposit under any circumstances other than, like, you totally messed up?

10:37

goes toward they're coming as COVID aside, no, yeah, no, I'm fortunate. I've never had that happen. But I mean, the thing,

Annemie Tonken  10:45

I suppose you could take the simple sales structure. And instead of calling it a session fee, and then charging, let's say, it was like a $200 session fee. And your packages were 800 1012 100, you could call it a $200 deposit. And make your collections 1012 114 100. I mean, you do it, you could call it that if you want to, I like being able to make the numbers sound smaller, even though obviously, they add up and I don't like try and pretend like they don't. But But yeah, what you would be selling, let's say that a new client called you up, or an old client, even, you know, given that that's your more, your bigger concern, you're, you've been in business for a long time, you've run your numbers, I know that you're not losing money on your sessions. So chances are, you wouldn't have to change your pricing. Really, it would just be the way that it's structured. And when it's restructured, you would be presenting people with a lower risk situation where it's like pay for the session. And then once you've seen your photos, you're gonna, you get to choose a question. Now, you're saying you're concerned that you know, then you're going to be on the seat of your or edge of your seat being like, which one are they going to choose? Well, yes, there is that. But again, when your pricing is set up correctly, even if every single one of your clients goes for the lowest collection, you're gonna, you're still gonna be making money. Yeah. And what I generally find is that that's the opposite of what happens if people haven't seen their photos, they are much more disciplined about choosing a lower package, versus once the photos are in front of them, and they love them. They're like, Oh, how could we possibly go with the lower package, we have to get all the images, which is, which is how I ended up selling, you know, almost always the the top package. I don't think it's so funny how we get stuck in our heads about stuff. And I'm not saying you're wrong at all, I always say, you know, your clients, you know, your staff, so far be it for me to tell you what to do. But from, from a third person perspective, My instinct is that this is not as big of a jump as you may feel like it is it's,

13:01

I think you're right, I mean, it's just you're like, don't let your brain mess around with your brain. Right. I think the other thing too, is that you kind of set it is that, you know, with an audience that is already, obviously, because you've educated them, but they're already kind of planning on investing a certain amount of money in the experience, I think finding ways to differentiate why the you know, the additional spend on the other side of the session fee, or the minimal deposit or whatever, we ended up calling it right, and to continue to deliver on something that they feel really, really amazing about, Oh, of course, we're going to purchase the top collection after the session, I think it's so important. And something that until we were just having this conversation, I hadn't really thought about the fact that in my brain, it does not make it less valuable or less important or less personalized, to do it this way for those full session clients. And, you know, I think part of it may just be that I have quite a deep roster of existing clients and figuring out the right way to transition them, that takes into account whatever their feelings may be about the circumstance. Right, especially because of the just what they sort of automatically get as a part of their top spend know ahead of ahead of the actual session. I think maybe that is also a part of it, you know, how do you transition when you've, you've done it a certain way with these clients for a number of years and you know, financially they will stick with you, but the messaging and the communication of that is so key in a way that makes them feel like you're not just kind of leaving them to the side.

Annemie Tonken  14:34

Totally. And I think you know, I don't know, how do you know off the top of your head about how many clients you work with over the course of the year with regular sessions?

14:45

So I would say in like a two year span I see between 100 and 125 families Okay, that's about the same that I do. You have one family that will do like a full session one year and then they'll wait and then some families, you know, you get

Annemie Tonken  14:59

out goes Yeah, so I would definitely say that, you know, you could put together an email that sort of outlines the whole thing. And then if you have clients who you have, you feel you're nervous about the way that this is going to feel to them, I might just try and jump on the phone. I mean, these are the things that I'm all about scaling and like getting scaling is the wrong word. But like automating and streamlining and really making my my workflow as simple as possible when it comes to the session process. But I never want people to misunderstand the fact that like this, I don't run like a big factory experience for my clients, and they don't feel like I do, because I'm very quick to jump on the phone with them, or message them, you know, text them on my phone or whatever and be, and so they have this sense that I am like, right there with them. And the fact that my emails go out automatically, and all that sort of stuff. I don't think it detracts from that. I think that as long as it is approached, and you know, my clients know, I'm a busy person, and I run a business and I have all these systems dialed in. But at any point, if there's something that they're hung up on, or whatever, like I am more than happy to jump in and talk directly to them and manage whatever it is that they need. And I think I have found over the years that people really respect that they, you know, they feel well taken care of. And the fact that there is the system in place to them gives them this assurance that even when I'm crazy busy, or even if my kids are sick, or even if I have to go out of town for some reason, their photos aren't gonna get lost in the mix. Does that make sense?

16:39

Totally, totally. It's just making people feel like they matter. Yeah. Your business or not? Right, because they do right livelihood? Of course. That's exactly right. Yeah. So you're so right, you're so right. And I think this is just a great example of even when you have, even when you have a very full business, I'll say, and everything's going awesome, you can still have those moments of what am I actually doing here,

Annemie Tonken  17:06

which is what we were talking about before we hit the record button, about that vacillation between everything is going great. And I'm rocking it out to what in the world. I'm like barely hanging on

17:17

the specter of two completely different gifts, right like the dance versus like the Leo despair.

Annemie Tonken  17:26

That's being an entrepreneur, which can happen in the span of an hour like it does not take a long time. Yeah, well, good. And you know, I always feel like the chain even as arbitrary as it is like that post holiday January doldrums. Season is such a good time to make shifts like this, you have more time to focus on things like messaging, people understand that oftentimes small businesses will make, you know, systems changes around the new year. So I think that if you chose to take that path, it wouldn't be a bad time of year to do it.

18:01

Yeah, you're right. I gotta do some brain work here. That's that's what we figured out today. Thanks for that.

Annemie Tonken  18:10

If you've only just figured that out, well, well. I have to think about my thinking on the regular meta.

18:20

Thank you so much. This was really great. Oh, gosh,

Annemie Tonken  18:22

my pleasure. I hope that the rest of your busy season goes really well and that those little ones of yours are happy and healthy for the holidays. Thank you. All right. Bye. That's it for this week's mini mentoring session. If you've got a problem or issue in your photography business that you'd like to have featured on the show, go to this can't be that hard.com/mentoring and use the form to submit your information. I can't wait to hear from you.