PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - EPISODE 228

STORIES THAT SELL WITH JUDE CHARLES

Please note: This transcript was created with the assistance of AI technology. While we strive for accuracy, the text may contain errors and should be verified against the original source for critical uses.

Annemie Tonken  00:00

for over 17 years do Charles has been producing documentaries for entrepreneurs. So he has produced stories for Google, Steve Harvey, and dozens of visionary CEOs. He is an artist. He is a visual artist just like me and you. However, this impressive CV is not the reason that I invited Jude on to the show today, I heard you and interviewed a while back on a podcast, a business podcast that I frequently listened to where he was being interviewed about using your story, to sell your work. And the more I listened to him and the way that he thought about storytelling, the more I felt like this is a guy that I need to have come and talk to us because his insights about how to marry our strengths as artists with how to then leverage that to land work, whatever level of work that that you are currently aspiring to, is. It's perfect, it is exactly what so many of us need. Because I think that when we describe ourselves as storytellers, and when we point to the photographs that we take, or the short films that we make, and say I tell stories, that's all fine and good. But it's not until we lean into our own story a little bit and start to share that, that we can really bridge that divide for people and show them what's possible. And so I invited Jude on the show today, to really walk us through how that works. And you are going to love this interview. It is full of stories, which are always entertaining. So I'm not going to oversell it, I'm going to let him do that job for me. And, and right now I'll just Cue the music.

Intro:

Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie Tonken. And I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard. You can do it, and I can show you how. Jud Charles, welcome to this can't be that hard. It is such a pleasure and an honor to have you on the show. I have. I have heard you on some of my favorite podcasts before. So this is this is gonna be a treat. I'm excited to share you with my audience. Welcome and how you doing today?

Jude Charles  02:39

I am good. It is exciting to be here. And to have this conversation that we're gonna have today. I'm really glad to know that you obviously have heard of me before. So this is gonna be a fun conversation. This is gonna be two friends having a conversation. So yeah,

Annemie Tonken  02:53

friends who've just met but I feel like I feel like there's you know, it is funny how you get to know someone on something like a podcast or something like that. And you feel like you know them and I hear from people a lot who were like, ah, you know, I hear you in my ears when I'm on a walk or anything else and and there is sort of a closeness that comes there. So we're pre qualified. I like to I like to think anyway, before we dive into storytelling, which I mean, I just feel like you had me at hello. Before we dive in there. I would love for you to give everyone who's listening a sense of who you are and and a little bit of your backstory.

Jude Charles  03:33

Sure. So who I am as a curious kid. At eight years old, I used to write 100 page books of what I thought my future life would look like. So I wrote books like the police life of Jude Charles because I wanted to be a police officer growing baseball life of Jude Charles because I also thought of what would life be like if I played baseball, and all I wrote 11 books. And then when I was 17. I took a TV production class. And the teacher, Mrs. Donnelly, she taught me everything she knew about video production. And then at the end of the school year closely in the school year, she was like, Dude, you're really, really talented at Video Production, you should start a business. I was like, Okay, I don't know what that means. I'm 17, youngest of 10 children. My father was a construction worker, my mom worked at a cheer factory. So I was just like, Okay, that's a cool idea. But I never said yes or no. following day, May 5 2006, Mrs. Donnelly walked into the classroom and handed me a yellow envelope. And inside of this yellow envelope was my first set of business cards. Wow, that is how I got started in filmmaking and video production telling stories. But that's a bit of who I am. I'm a curious kid who is not afraid to take risks and not afraid to live my life out on the limb and do things differently, especially being the youngest of 10 children. So I've seen how my other siblings have done it and I just decided to take a different path.

Annemie Tonken  04:57

That's amazing. So I'm going to just pause As and shout out to the teachers out there. I am always blown away. I mean, with my own watching my own kids, of course, I've got my own experiences, but like the, clearly she saw something really special in you, and was willing to kind of put her money where her mouth was. And those kinds of investments that people make in, in their students and in their, you know, in their work are, are so important. And so whether you're a teacher, or or photographer, and educator or a storyteller, I just love that little piece of your story. And I also just get so wrapped up in this eight year old kid, like lying around writing these stories and envisioning his future and it honestly makes me want to grab my camera to tell that story, because it's such a good one. So clearly, you're doing something right on the, like evoking a visual idea. But that is, that is amazing. And so, you know, we're here to kind of connect those dots from like, where you were then to where you are now and the lessons that you've learned along the way and how storytelling has, you know, been your medium and become your medium. Although it sounds like it kind of has been all along. There's been that through line. How I'd love to hear that that story a little bit and start there.

Jude Charles  06:25

Yeah. So when I started the business at 17. I started by doing like small events. So birthday parties, weddings, and I say weddings, even though weddings can be expensive. I was only charging $500 at the time. Sure. But it wasn't 17

Annemie Tonken  06:39

year old is big money was to me. Yeah.

Jude Charles  06:44

Right. Especially if you live at home and you don't have any other real responsibilities, like $500 is a lot, especially back in 2006. It wasn't until like, kind of trying to figure things out five years in business that I did a documentary for a cosmetic entrepreneur. Her name is Keisha Dior. And this documentary was about her building her business from the ground up. So she was creating colored lipstick. If you think of blue, purple, green lipstick, those colors weren't popular back in like 2010 2011. But I, we did a documentary and showing behind the scenes of how she was creating it. What was her vision behind it? Why was she creating it? And we put out the documentary. But it wasn't until a year later. I remember waking up early one morning to the sounds of chains hitting the floor. And it was always a nightmare that I would hear these chains hitting the floor. When I jumped up out of bed, went to the front window to look outside at what was happening. It was a tow truck driver coming to repossess my car for the second time in eight months. I go back in my room, sit on the edge of my bed, have my hand have my head in my hands and I'm thinking alright, you know what, I've given us a good five year run. I started this in high school. Maybe it's not meant to be maybe I just should go back to college because at that point I dropped out of college thinking that, you know, this is what I want to do for the rest of my life. Sure. And I get a phone call as I'm sitting there from Keisha Dior, the client. And Keisha calls me an excite and she's like Jude Jude, you won't believe you won't believe it. I just got off the phone with my accountant. He said we've made a million dollars we've crossed over the seven figure mark. Now mind you at this point in quiches business, it had only been a one year Oh, wow. Wow. I had been in business five years struggling to make $20,000 a year. Sure. So in that moment, I looked at that and I was just like, alright, I can look at this two different ways, either one. I don't know what I'm doing. This is proof right? Because here's somebody that's made a million dollars in one year and I'm still struggling to even get over the six figure mark let alone five let alone the seven figure mark. But then the other way I could look at this as this is proof that I create something valuable for my client right. And let me take a step back and understand why was it valuable? How did how was she able to make $1 million and that's that took the second round. To understand how is a vacation to your was able to make $1 million off of partially off of a documentary that I'd created for her. And I decided to take a year off at that point I learned marketing and sales. I'll never forget the first course I ever took was a course called earn 1k. By roommates at it no longer exists, but it was called earn 1k in the premise behind it was if you learn how to earn your first $1,000 you'll know how to repeat it pretty much. Now I had earned $1,000 But I hadn't earned it the right way. I hadn't learned the marketing and sales and learning what was valuable to a client. And it was that that really transformed my business because what I understood the key should did or what I helped Keisha do as well as I helped her tell her story, right? It wasn't just about the lipstick. It was about women empowerment. There was something so much deeper behind it. And so by helping her tell her story. And she told it, like, religiously, over and over and over again. That's what helped her make a million dollars. But I wasn't doing that in my business, I was just coming and thinking, hey, I'll sell you a video, the video will look cool, it'll look great. And that's it. Now at this point, 17 years later, I don't even sell video. That's not what I sell. I sell storytelling, I sell the end product, which normally for a client is to make more money or to get greater opportunities. That is what I sell now. But I sell that through my story and my own journey of how I've become an entrepreneur, the things that I've gone through to be able to sit here today and talk with either you or to talk with my client.

Annemie Tonken  10:40

Yeah, well, and I think that the other part of that that really grabs me is the fact that I mean, unfortunately, in your moment of personal crisis, but in quiches moment of personal success, and you know, who does she pick up the phone to call? Maybe you weren't her first call, maybe she called her mom, but like, but the fact that that day, she wanted to share that with you obviously means that, you know, you were a part of that story for her and how she was able to get to that place. And so I'm so glad that you took the second view, because I think that there are a lot of situations in life where we can, we can look at a in particular, I think it's hard when we are having a crisis or a struggle, it's, the easier thing to do is to look at that and say this is a failure, this is a problem. And maybe it is a problem. And maybe it is a failure of some sort. But within that there is always some sort of potential for transformation. Or, you know, I've actually been working with my own 17 year old who has gone through some, some tough stuff recently to talk about, like, we all have a story. And there's a turning point in those, you know, our stories have turning points. And so you have to you have the power at certain junctures to to decide which way you're turning. And so I think

Jude Charles  12:07

I'd like to add to that, that there's even more, there's greater perspective that you brought, that I've actually haven't heard before, which is the fact that Keisha would call to me, whether or not I was the first call she called Right, yeah. That she felt it was important enough, I had been on the journey with her Yeah, to call, right. And I think the reason I want to point that out, it's it goes along with everything else that you're pointing out, but that that one small thing brings value to me, the person right on the other end of the phone call who is at my lowest moment, right, there's this idea of vision versus perspective, we're all born with eyes with the ability to see, both of us happen to be wearing glasses. So without the right set of lenses on, you can't read words, at least for me from far away, like my glasses are to see far away, you can't read the right words, unless you have the right set of lenses on those two lenses that I decided to sit there and look through which was either I'm not really good at this. And here's proof or I'm good at this. But I just needed to learn something a little bit different to tweak it just a little bit. In order to continue to make money. That perspective is important to sit and think about, okay, what's really happening here. Again, I didn't have the perspective that you just had, which is okay, she called me though, she felt it was important enough to call me to celebrate this moment with me. Right? To say, and I don't even think she said it at the time. And it's not a problem that she didn't say, but to say, you helped me do this, or we did this together or anything like that. But it still happened because like I knew enough to know that the documentary was a piece of it. And I knew that because at the end of the documentary, we did a discount code on anyone who watched the documentary, they can go on byproducts. So I knew that was a piece of like the overall strategy. Yeah. But again, I didn't have that until today until having this conversation with you. I didn't have that perspective of Oh, but she called me to celebrate. Yeah, right. Like, that's important. And so, to sit with perspective, we all go through things in life. And just like you mentioned your own 17 year old who's going through things in life, but you have to look at okay, what's really happening here and what can I do about what's happening here?

Annemie Tonken  14:13

Right, right. So from that point, you took a year, you worked on your sort of sales and marketing and dialing that in, and then what?

Jude Charles  14:26

So I continue to work I took a year off as far as like taking on other clients, but I continue to work who Keisha we renewed our contract. We worked together for three years. But the very next line I decided to pitch was an interior designer. And this interior designer ironically found me from he had watched quiches documentary but he had also we worked on a separate project city of Pompano Beach, which is where I live 100 year anniversary I hit did their documentary, and he had kind of watched me do it. We didn't work together but he was working on a separate part of that project. And he called me and he was just like he's in Interior Designer and he wanted to use this like what you did with Keisha, I need that in my business. And so we met, we had a meeting. Excellent bunch of questions, because I had learned in sales and marketing from this course, don't just go in with, oh, here's what I can do for you learn what they really need, so that you can position yourself based on what they need. Learn what he needed, created, it took me an entire month, which it shouldn't have. But it took me a month to create the proposal to create the presentation that I wanted to present to him and say, This is how much it's going to cost and what is it going to take. And I did that took a month. And I'll never forget, I did the entire presentation at the end of the presentation was when the price comes up. I remember saying to him, that it is going to cost $15,000 Now for context can you should be yours documentary only cost $3,000. She made a million it only costs 3000. But this next time, I was like, Okay, I'm gonna go for 15,000 15,000 and make me feel really good. Knowing the amount of work is going to take at that time. And so I said 15,000, and his next words shocked me. He said, Great. When do we get started? I was just I couldn't understand what had just happened. Now. This is a critical key. I went back and asked him, of course, after I signed the contract, he gave me the first deposit, I went back and asked him I was just like, why did you say yes. And he said to me, part of what I did in my presentation is of course I laid out everything. And I gave him the vision. But I also created a storyboard. And he was like at the point that he saw the storyboard, he understood that I was the right person for the job was I could already see the project, I could already understand what it would take to do it. And again, I think those bits and pieces how I presented it, creating even the storyboard, I don't think there was the idea of the storyboard in earn 1k. But I think there was an idea of like, what can they see? How can they envision this because they don't do what you do. But how can you get them to better understand and it was, for me, it was like creating a storyboard. That is what I that was the next step I took and because of that moment, like I still do till this day, I call it something different now it's called a road mapping. And road mapping, I charge $17,000 For it's a full day consultation day at work I do somewhat similar to what I did with William back in 2013. But and I still include the storyboard, but I charge for it now back then I didn't. But now I charge for it. And that is what has helped me like to this day is part of that is when I'm in the presentation. The big piece that I did with William is I told him this story about Keisha your car getting repossessed, me going back to learn marketing and sales, and why I was the right person for the job. Because I understood what he was trying to accomplish and marketing and sales and his business. Right? I did those things, those is the exact same things that I do today to be able to help close a client. But that was the big shift. Am I now telling my story? Who is doing Charles who you're going to work with this guy that's going to come and film with you for six months? Four to six months? Who is he? What is he about? What are his core values? What does he stand for? Those are the stories I begin to tell the same stories that Keisha was telling you her documentary that helped shape where I am today.

Annemie Tonken  18:25

Right? And where she went to I mean, those are, it's those stories and those points of connection with people are often the difference between somebody choosing to work with you, or I mean, especially in a market, we all call our own market saturated, but photography is exaggerated. So you know, I mean that it really is those kinds of points of connection are often more compelling to our potential clients. Then the photos that we take as much as we would love to think like, oh, no, it's the quality of the work that I do. You know, you're talking about somebody, you're gonna be spending six months with them. Most of our listeners today don't spend six months with their clients, but maybe they spend their entire wedding day with them. Or maybe they are in the room with them while they're like dressed in Lacey underthings and taking pictures of them. I mean, that's, you know, we talk a lot about the fact that those are vulnerable positions that you are it's not only vulnerable from like a personal perspective, but it's a lot of money and so somewhat the trust factor is just as high you know, it is just as important for for us to gain trust as it is to communicate the fact that we know what we're doing with camera, the piece of this well, there's so many pieces of this that I feel like are important and valuable. I do want to take this to the fact that photographers in general consider themselves most of us consider ourselves to be storytellers. And we talk about that on our websites and and but I think that sometimes the disconnect happens where we say we're storytellers and Do we see the stories that we have told for our clients? And maybe our clients see those stories? Because it's their story, so they know it. But how do we bridge the gap by showing future clients? By telling the story in such a way that future clients can see that for themselves? You're talking about roadmapping, whether you call it roadmapping, or vision casting, or you know, whatever, whatever term you want to use, how do we how do we use story in that way, and sort of tap into our native or natural abilities as storytellers to to like, get the sale?

Jude Charles  20:38

Yeah. So I want to backtrack to what a story is. And that's very important to the context of, because I'm gonna make this extremely practical in like 60 seconds, but a story is a retelling of a very specific moment in time. That's it. That's what a story is. It's just you tell me about a very specific moment in time. Now, the second piece of that is, what did you learn in that moment in time? What is the lesson that came out of it? Let's make this practical. In 2014, I went to a leadership conference in Spokane, Washington. And leadership was always important to me. I always knew like for some reason, there was this this thing like that just mattered to me about being able to lead being able to not necessarily be in front of the room leading but just guiding people along the journey. And I went to this leadership conference, and that was in Spokane, Washington. I live in Pompano Beach, Florida. And so it was a three day conference. I'm like, Okay, I know I'm gonna need to digest this. I had been to conferences before. And I was like, You know what? Washington is the furthest north west point of America. I live in the furthest south east point of America was like, what if I took a Greyhound bus back home? It's a three day trip. Yeah. Going from northeast to southwest from point to point. Well, it was not the greatest idea I've ever had. I was miserable the entire time. Three day trip. And it wasn't until I got to Chicago, Illinois, that I had turned on my phone. So I had my phone off the entire time because trying to digest it. But yeah, the second day, I was annoyed and I was just like, alright, this is not going the way I planned for. And I turned back on my phone and I there's text messages coming through, but there's one that stands out, and it's from my sister. And my sister says Call me back. It's urgent. Now, this is 2014. My mother had been diagnosed with depression and had attempted suicide. My father three months before that had been diagnosed with prostate cancer. So I knew it was either mom or dad when I saw that that text message and I begin to brace myself. I call my sister and unfortunately ends up being dad. They say they found him unresponsive in the home. Now, I'm on the road. So I know what that means. And it means that he has passed away they don't want to tell me but I take the first flight back home from Chicago. And my brother comes to pick me up. He comes with his daughter, my niece Ayana. I hug my brother, I don't say a word. I hug my niece and I don't say a word. But I sit in the backseat with my niece and I'm staring out the window. I'm 25 years old at this point, youngest of 10 children did not imagine I would lose my father at such an early age. He had never seen me get married or have children. And as I'm sitting there looking out the window Ayana, who's nine years old, she says Uncle, why did grandpa have to die? And I just stared at her because I don't know how to respond to a nine year old asking me about death. This is the first time she's ever had to deal with death in her immediate family. She said it again. Why did grandpa have to die? Well, a week later I got a response. And the answer to that because on August 9 2014, when we went to go lay my father to rest I do Charles Lee, youngest of 10 children, was asked to give his eulogy. And a part of that was leading my family through this difficult moment. And I understood that leadership wasn't just important to me, it was leading in moments that are difficult, that are vulnerable, that are uncomfortable that I had a gift and an ability to do. That story that I just told about losing my father is a story that I tell in my meeting with clients. It is the very first story we open up with and roadmapping because the way that I am that story is that I'm not here to tell you how to create a video or even tell you how to tell your story. I'm just here to lead you through this process. We are going to be together for the next if you decide to work with me because that road mapping they don't decide that they actually want to do the project right but if you decide to work with me in this project, we're going To be working together for four to six months, it is going to be uncomfortable, I'm going to ask you things that is going to cause you to get vulnerable. But I will lead you through this process. Right? So that's a very practical way of a story. Now you don't have to tell such a dramatic story. Sure. That just happens to be my personality. And one of my core values that it's one of my core values is depth versus width. And, and because I know I want my clients to be vulnerable, I open up and be vulnerable by telling my own story. Right, right. And so that's a very practical way. What are the stories? What are the experiences, the moments that you've had in your life that relate to your business, and how they're going to relate to your business is the lesson that you learned in that moment? Right. So that's one of the stories is another story I tell about almost drowning, as well, that I use as what I call the so this happened September was 2021. I believe it might have been last year actually 2022. And it's a story that I use as my closer story to say that, I'll say the lesson we could talk about if we want to tell the story in a second. But I'll say the lesson the lesson is, this is going to feel uncomfortable is going to be scary, but don't be afraid to jump in. Right. And so again, the story, the moment in time is important, which is the moment in time with the first story of I call it my Spokane story, but losing my father and, and having tell the eulogy, and what I learned in that moment. So that's the story. And then what I learned about how I continue to lead how I continue to work with my clients, what makes me different, what makes me unique, though, that's one piece of his story, and then the lesson and when you have those two pieces, and you think about that, what are the lessons, what are the things I want to leave with my clients so that they do decide to work with me, that's what helps you take it to the next level.

Annemie Tonken  26:56

Okay, first of all, I'm just going to, like speak for everyone listening and say, I have been sitting here like, dealing with my chills, like waves of chills with these stories. And it is the sort of thing that creates that instant connection that we were talking about before, because whether or not I mean, my father is thankfully alive and well, that I so I haven't had that experience. But I have had experiences like that sort of transformative text messages or phone calls, things that, you know, catch you, if not completely off guard, you know, those kinds of things are always surprised anyway. point being that, that you tell that story, not only can I sort of immediately move from thinking in my head about whatever, but it's like, I feel it in my body. And I there is this level of trust, there is this like, oh, do Charles is a human being he has had human experiences he has suffered with them grown from them learned about himself. And that's what I'm in the case of, you know, wanting to hire a documentary photographer, that's, that's what I need, I need somebody else who kind of gets that, and can help me tell my story. And, and, you know, the podcast that I have heard you speak on, you were talking more about like closing and selling and whatever. And that's important as photographers, but it the fact that we both work in Visual Media and, and that we are trying to connect with people who are you know, there is that weird personal, I don't wanna say weird, but it is like a hyper personal kind of a thing.

Jude Charles  28:37

But a weird, it can be weird. Everything is weird.

Annemie Tonken  28:41

The to, to really lean into that. And one of the things that I teach, or I very strongly encourage my students and my listeners to do, especially if they struggle with booking clients is to get on the phone, a lot of us as photographers, you know, it's like you get an email inquiry, and you send an email back saying, Great, here's my pricing and whatever. And I feel like you know, of course, you can write a little bit about your story, or you can dive into that, but hoping that someone stops and takes the time to read something is hope at best. And I feel like getting on the phone, having a video call or at the very minimum recording a video for someone that they're going to watch so that you can share a little bit more and go a little bit deeper. Not a long story, not something that has no point. This isn't just like storytelling for the sake of like sharing what you had for breakfast, but really starting with your core value. I like that you said you know what these deep and not wide is more depth and not with as my core value. You know, what is it that you believe that you offer as a photographer? And then how, like, what is a story that you've experienced in your life because most of us got into this in some way because, you know, it's like we're good at the art but also we've got our own stuff that we're sharing or that we I've documented that's been meaningful to us. So how can you lead with that in a way that shows someone that you are the person for them?

Jude Charles  30:08

Yeah. And you know, I I'm an introvert, I it does not come easy for me to tell my story for years the story of Mrs. Donnelly, which I told in the beginning, I didn't share that story, partially because I just thought, What's the big deal, the teacher gave me business cards. But the other part too, is just I didn't want to talk about myself. I just wanted to create, that's it. I wanted to create, I wanted to hold a camera and be able to create, and that's it and not have my face shown or not to even like you mentioned, it's easier to send an email than for me to record a video. Sure. Right. And so but what I learned, especially when I started telling Mrs. Donnelly story, is that people would ask more questions. And they would become much more interested in who I am and what I do, because I tell that story. And so you mentioned, so like, I sometimes I do like a loom video, if I get an inquiry or someone that I have met before, I'll do a loom video. And I will actually tell that story. And that story lives on my website, it. I've told it on podcast before, but I always assume you know what that person may not have heard. This may just be their first interaction with me. And I'm going to tell that story, I'm going to let them know, this is who I am, this is how I got started. It's nothing fancy. It's nothing like I knew I was passionate about video or anything like that. It's just this is who I am. Teacher did a really cool thing for me. And I continued it for 17 years. And I let them in. And I think this is probably the most important because I let them into my world. Yeah, when I let them into when I invite them into my world, it creates a connection that allows them to nod their head and say, Yes, this is the person I want to work with Matt because they can create, or do great photos, take great photos, or even take great film. It's because of the person the human being. And when you can create that kind of trust, it changes how that interaction goes further on.

Annemie Tonken  32:02

Yeah, absolutely. Well, on that mic drop no moment. I, I feel like I am not alone in saying that I could sit here and like listen to stories or share swap stories all day long. And the next thing that I'm going to do when I get off this call with you is download the audio. But you wrote a book about this process and helping in particular entrepreneurs share their stories, right? Yes, tell us a little bit about the book and where everybody can find it.

Jude Charles  32:34

It is called dramatic demonstration, how to track premium clients, and scale your business with visual storytelling. But it is dramatic demonstration. There are five dramatic demonstrations that I talked about in the book, I break them down for you. It's pretty much a roadmapping session. But in written form, that the same way I walked my clients through roadmapping I walk you through roadmapping in the book, there are 33 questions on page 67 that allow you gonna go deep into your own business and find these stories that we're talking about. Like it's not easy, I get it. If you're not used to telling stories or talking about yourself, you don't know where to start. This book helps you start and helps you go on this journey of transforming your business, being able to tell stories, creating your own story bank, right, which is downloading the stories that you have in your life dramatic demonstration.com That is where you can go to find that into get the book, there's an audio book, which I really recommend because the audio book is not just me reading it. before the book came out, I had been featured on 50 podcasts. And I took segments of those podcasts that probably illustrate the ideas that I'm talking about in the book a little bit better than me just reading from the book. That's why I recommend the audiobook because there are segments of podcasts that help you go deeper. And you can also see how the host understands the idea better as well. But dramatic demonstration.com. If you're looking to tell your story, you want to charge more money, get more clients quality clients at a higher level, dramatic demonstration, learn how to create this dramatic demonstration that makes it easier to attract these clients to you. And easier to close them as well because they understand who you are and not just what you do.

Annemie Tonken  34:11

Amazing. Dude, thank you so much for coming on and sharing this. This has been a pleasure and I am looking forward to having you back on the show in the future so we can dive even deeper.

Jude Charles  34:21

Thank you. Thank you very much for having me.

Annemie Tonken  34:24

Outro:

Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads at this can't be that hard.com/learn If you like the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review on iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week.