Season 1, Episode 26: Emergent Strategy Podcast
“Honest Movement with PG WatkinsI'll Stop There: Season One Reflection with adrienne, Mia, and Sage”
*Please note: these transcripts are intended to increase the accessibility of the podcast; there should be no reprinting or distribution without permission.
Sage: I think that as a host, it became really important to me to be led as much as I'm creating space.
Music Break: Theme Music plays (“Wage Love” instrumental)
Mia: We're live.
adrienne: Yay. <laugh> Hi, Sage and Mia.
Mia: Hey, adrienne.
adrienne: Hi, y'all. So, we are here today. We have gathered ourselves to do a kind of whoa episode. Like, we just got through a whole first season--
Sage: Whoa.
adrienne: --of this Emergent Strategy Podcast, and wow. <laugh> It's been an epic, epic experience, I think, for all of us in different ways. So, we wanted to come together and reflect on this first season being a triple host endeavor. And then, look forward, look ahead at what, what's coming, cause we wanna keep doing this. But first, maybe we should just say hi to <laugh> each other and our beloved, beloved listeners. Sage, you wanna bring yourself in? Hello, and how you are.
Sage: Absolutely.
adrienne: Maybe something murmuring in you today.
Sage: Yeah. I am really excited about this recording. It's sort of a--, I'm a big fan of the, the, kind of, elegant close and, like, pop off to the next. And so, I--I am thrilled with this opportunity to talk to you two about what this series has been like for us, and just, hi everybody. It's Sage, <Sage and adrienne laugh> and I am excited to be in this conversation and to talk about just the different drops of, of, of brilliance that are, are here now, just in the world now. I can listen to it whenever I want. Anytime I wanna go back to. Like, I'm so grateful. So grateful.
Mia: (02:23) Yeah. Hey everyone, this is Mia. I'm really excited. I feel like I've been spoiled of recent to be in, you know, some conversations with you both, adrienne and Sage, in an ongoing way. And this feels like a continuation of those conversations. So like, one, I'm just happy whenever we have time together. <laugh> I feel like that's a certain magic. And then, similar to Sage, feel in awe, like, deeply inspired by the people that were a part of this season. And so, I'm excited to just relive and be in that with y'all a bit. Also really bringing in this feeling of change that feels both so beautiful and so active. That's like in the sky right now. So the clouds are thick, puffy, like, wanna be in them. I think, adrienne, you may have described it even as like an alien. This kind of cloud is, like, when the aliens are covering.
adrienne: Yes.
Mia: <laugh> Taking cover.
adrienne: I'm like, oh, the alien cover. Yep.
Mia: <laugh> The aliens are here with us. The sky has really beautiful peaks of blue, and it's active and moving. And so, I'm just trying to hold that energy or just be with that energy inside of this conversation and flow. So, that's where I am. How bout you, adrienne?
adrienne: (03:45) Mm. I'm doing irie. I'm doing okay. I am in that winter phase where my health keeps kind of dipping in and out and up and down. And actually, the podcast has been a great comfort to me, <laugh> through this year, through this period. I keep returning to episodes. There's so many profound conversations in here, and I, I felt-- and feel--very inspired by the quality of conversation that happens amongst emergent strategists. You know, I'm just like, ooh. We really, like, live at an intersection of many things, and it's exciting to be in that space. So, I'm super geeked. I'm geeked to get to spend time with you all. Listeners, just so y'all know, we got some time together recently. We had a staff retreat, and it was just beautiful. It was full of laughter. There was some good music, there was some great food. Sage has a particular secret for making popcorn amazing. We--, <laugh> we, we got to be by a smelly ocean, and it was just a lot <laugh> of interesting time together. And what I hope is that the podcast experience overall and that this conversation in particular gives people a taste of what that magic is like when we're all just with each other. It, it really lifts my bones.
Sage: (05:10) It's funny you were just talking about popcorn, because I was thinking, <adrienne laughs> my analogy--and y'all know I love a good analogy.
adrienne: Yes, you do.
Sage: <laugh> This season was like a giant tub of Garrett's popcorn.
adrienne: Mmm.
Sage: And so how does--, how is one kernel better than the other, than the other? Right, like it's, it's the--, the caramel with the cheese and the butter and, like, all of them mixed together is the, the, the--, is the sweet spot.
Mia: Dang.
Sage: I think for me--. <Mia and Sage laugh>
adrienne: I know, I know. I'm just sitting here thinking about that popcorn. I feel like people should know that we also have, at one point, ordered Garrett's popcorn for the entire team as a, as a comfort food. So--
Sage: Mm-hmm.
adrienne: It's meaningful for us. So we have a few things we wanna wanna ask each other. And the first is to talk a little bit about highlights from season one. Like, what are--, what is something or multiple somethings that really just stood out to you and stand out to you that, that walk with you in your day?
Sage: Yep. I think that the--. A lot of the highlights for me come from conversations that Mia has had with folks. So, I think part of that is because I recognize a yearning inside myself for the ability to drop that deeply in that connectedness, in that groundedness and that internal piece. And so, I really loved the, the "Interdependence and The Abundance and Forgiveness" with Shane that started us off early, and, and thinking about lineage and food and how we connect in so many ways. And I actually--, even as I'm saying that, I'm also reflecting on the, on your conversation most recently, if I'm gonna bookend this also, adrienne with Sendolo. I, I literally think I played it three times in a row back to back to back to back.
adrienne: Oh, yes.
Sage: (07:04) Just because I believe it--, in the days that I have where I feel like I am in front of a screen so much of my life, so many times, like, these are conversations that remind me of other parts of myself, and to care for other parts of myself, and to bring them forward to everything, everything I do. Like this--, the, this idea of devotion and--, was, was, mind--, was really mind blowing in a way that I had not connected to the--, to rigor and strategy in that way. And I loved the, the complexity and the juiciness of that, rela--, of that mixture. And then--. See these, these are the kernels of pop, right? And then I'm, like, and then the transformative funding with Xiomara, who is a beloved comrade that, like, I'm so overjoyed to get to work closely with. And what it means to think about colonialism, and the history of colonialism, and--
adrienne: Oof!
Sage: --and, as a kind of, where the grounding is, and understanding that is contextual, but also where the vision lies, and where do we need to go to free ourselves, and to be able to find new ways of engaging that both acknowledge that, as a history, and, and sub--, but subvert that in a way that is about our lineages and our humanity and our dignity, and, and uplifting and grounding in those ways. I could do each and every episode, but I'm gonna stop there so that there's time for <laugh> other folks to share.
adrienne: It's so good. It's so good. I love that. What about for you, Mia? What are some highlights from, from this season?
Mia: Wow. Well, I definitely am on the Sage train <laugh> around some shared highlights. I was thinking about that Sendolo episode that you did. And yeah, this notion of devotion has been ringing deeply. In particular, the relationship between, like, devotion and winning. It feels to me like such an interesting tension and such a beautiful tension.
adrienne: Mm-hmm.
Mia: (09:12) Right, like, one, just to do--, to be devoted to such an important project as our liberation. And to do that with rigor in the way that was talked about. But also to do that from a place of like, I have a goal of winning. <laugh>.
adrienne: Uh-huh.
Mia: And I, I, I often think of, like, devotion as, like, as distinct. Like, I really try to take devotion outside of the realm of, of competition.
adrienne: Mm-hmm.
Mia: <laugh> So, it's interesting to hold those pieces together a bit--
adrienne: Mm-hmm.
Mia: And, and what it means to have such deep belief that winning feels, like, so critical. I know it is for our survival and our lives. And also, to surrender the notion of winning to devotion, to me is really kind of just working inside of me in interesting ways. So, it sits as a question, kind of considerably, since. And then also, I would say with En and Marcia, I have to say, to me the, that episode was like, what can our love do in the world? What can our love do for each other? And then, what can I love do for each other, and to seed, and to sprout, and to cultivate. It was such a sweet tender place to be a part of and to witness and to, you know, hold as an important, kind of, rigor inside of love. <laugh>. And then, my mind. The “Chaos Mindedness” with Mwende that Sage--, the conversation y'all had, that joint--. Okay. I mean, so first of all--. <adrienne laughs>. Yes. I mean, yes. First of all, I felt like I was dropped in on a porch, and I was hearing a conversation between, you know, old friends, right? Like the, the intimacy and the level of depth and then the vulnerability and also the wildness. <laugh> Like, I just--, it was so great. Like it just felt like, this is clearly one of those conversations that did not start here. Like, there's no way it could have started here because the places that y'all traversed. But also, yeah, I think my mind--. I can def--, I felt a change in my--, in who am I being, listening to that conversation? Cause I was like, Oh, shoot. Wow. Uhhhh. <laugh> What does it mean to be chaos minded? To disrupt for the possibility of something that's truly new, like this abolition at a core, and you know, and also to hold when that disruption is just for the sake of disruption, right? Like, just holding all of it.
adrienne: Mmm.
Mia: (11:44) So I just--, yeah, that was fundamental. And you know, I had my fear going into the Javier with my own little--. Like, I still, you know, I'm working out some of my stuff around philanthropy. And so--
adrienne: Mmm.
Mia: --I had, I had a little, like, tentativeness going into the--, listening to that conversation. And my heart was just so open and so excited and I was like, mmm. It could also be that the, like, artist minded funders, like, maybe there's a particular type over there. <laugh> They're like the public foundation folks with, you know, the Maria Fund, like Xiomara. And then, like, the artist minded folks, they just--. Like, that's, that's a different way of doing it. Okay. I felt very excited. I felt very, very excited. Yeah, just titillation, actually, is what came to me inside of that conversation. And, like, absolutely let's give people what they need to do what they need to do. And can we, like, make sure that everyone is--, well's being is taken care of, particularly when we have the resources to do that. And to really be strategic about what it is to shift, to shift our condition, knowing that our long term goal is to shift a system. It takes time, but we can get there with strategy. And then, you know, I can't even. With any of the episodes I did, I can't even, because, like, honestly I was just like <giggle>. Each time, I was like, what? But y'all heard that la--. I mean, the one with Mallika definitely, like, just the meditation with the tree? <laugh> It's forever life changing. You know, this vulnerability.
adrienne: (13:23) Mm-hmm.
Mia: Her willingness to share story and at such a level.
Sage: Yeah.
Mia: I just--. I mean, deeply grateful. Deeply grateful for that level of reflection that leads to understanding--. Well one, you know, speaking truth to, like, I'm doing some things that I think are good, but maybe I'mma call bullshit on it <laugh>. Like, it's actually reinforcing some systems. I don't need it to. How often are we able to, like, have that--, have that recognition and disrupt that, and then take the time, and then just learn something anew.
adrienne: Yeah.
Mia: And then do that from our greatest teachers. Really allow the plants and the land to be a different level of teacher, which, you know, is emergent strategy. So, I'll stop, but truthfully, I could go on.
adrienne: Mmm.
Sage: I think a theme is emerging here. That we're like, I'll stop, but. <laugh>
Mia: Ooh, I like that. <Mia and Sage laugh>
adrienne: I'll stop, but. Maybe that's what we should rename this.
Sage: Welcome to the episode, “I'll stop, but.”
Music Break: “DNA” Instrumental plays
adrienne: (14:51) I mean, it's so lovely to, as both of you speak, to, like, tap back into my own memories of those episodes. And I think, for me, I wanna step back and just do, like, a pattern highlight, which is--, I kept having the experience, especially listing, you know, listening to the ones that I had done and getting to revisit them, cause it is different when you listen versus when you're in that conversation. But especially the ones that y'all had done, I kept having this moment of just shock of like, what? Y'all are paying attention to this in philanthropy, what? You're doing it over in the theater world, what? Y'all are Black farmers paying attention to this? And BOLD is paying attention to this? I just kept having these moments of like, wow, like, this has to be good news that so many different kinds of systems are in experimentations that are guided by nature. And so I wanna name that pattern, which, it felt like such a sweet thing. I didn't get used to it <laugh> like I--, I, every single episode I was, like, what? Your whole board read this? Or, you know, like that kind of moment of, like, it's just, it's, it's exciting. And I kept--, I think the pattern is one of awe, like, Oh, this is, this thing is growing in such a beautiful way with so many hearts and minds experimenting in it. And some standouts for me. Definitely Jonathan. You know, the conversation that you, Sage, had with Jonathan felt like a really profound conversation around the Black body and understanding the Black body as a place of creativity and celebration and that that is a reclamation act. And I really loved that conversation, and I really love the idea that there's a play of emergent strategy out there that none of us have seen that it's just, like, another way in. (16:54) And I really loved the conversation, Mia, that you had with Autumn. I think I listened to it like four or five times. And there's a particular quote in there that, that Autumn says that society wants children who will become adults who believe their productivity is more important than their feelings. And if you're socialized to downplay your feelings, it's harder to know when harm is happening. And I keep coming back to that. Like, it feels like one of these bits of big profound wisdom that's, like, how do we change everything? How do we--, we could change everything by attending to this way that children are socialized--
Mia: Mm-hmm.
adrienne: --to say yes to harm or to normalize harm. And what would it look like to shift that? And, and to actually listen to children's feelings and be in a legitimate relationship with them. So, those are two, like, highlights, <laugh> you know, inside of this big highlight pattern for me. The, the next thing we wanna discuss a little bit, well--. Oh, what, Sage?
Sage: Before we move on, can I, can I just throw, can I just throw one more in? I just, I just can't not.
adrienne: You, you literally can <laugh>.
Sage: Thank you. adrienne, your conversation with Andrea Ritchie.
adrienne: Andrea was also--. I was like, and Andrea, I was gonna <laugh> I'm about to talk about that. That's good.
Sage: Cause there's something both in the content of it that, I think, you know, as we talk about explicit political ideologies and, and emergent strategy, but also it sound--, it is, you can hear an awakening, an awakening and an understanding of, like, Oh, these are how these things fit together.
adrienne: Yes.
Sage: (18:31) And I've actually--, this is one of the episodes that I send around to people sometimes, when they're struggling with emergent strategy.
adrienne: Mm-hmm.
Sage: And I'm like, oh, listen, listen to this one.
adrienne: Mm-hmm.
Sage: Right? Listen to this one a little bit, sit with this a little bit, and see how these things are starting to weave together, and see if that makes sense for the work that you do, in the same way that, that adrienne and Andrea are sort of weaving these things together, right? Like, I think. So I wanna uplift that one because both, I love it, and I think it's a really great tool to use for folks as part of what you mentioned. And that's what made me think about it. You mentioned sort of an entryway into
adrienne: Yes. Yeah, I'm like, there's so many ways in, and I actually think the way of the skeptic, in some ways, is the one that's most intriguing to me. <laugh> You know, the way of the people who are like, Hmm, wait. Okay. <laugh> You know. Now I see it. And--
Sage: Yeah.
adrienne: Andrea is actually working on a book on emergent strategy and abolition, you know, we, we touch on that. But she's been working on that all year, as this podcast has been emerging, and I just am so excited for that to be in the world. So, we wanted to share a little bit about what we learned as hosts and as humans. Like, what's a core lesson we're walking away with as a host and as a human. Mia, do you wanna start us off with this? What's something you learned as a host and something you learned as a human?
Mia: <laugh> I can. I can give it a try. I think, you know, as a host <laugh> I--. So, there's so many podcasts I listen to over--, in different moments, right? And so, there's a--, maybe some formulas that I'm like, oh, I should follow this formula. Maybe I should consider this formula. Oh, this formula is really helpful. And none of those are true for me. <laugh>. Like, what is, kind of, genuinely my way of being is to listen to people, to ask a question, just to listen for a while and to just affirm what feels like the resonance or the brilliance or to move where there may be tension and discord. I think in most of these examples, I just got a chance to really be moved by people and in affirm it, and <laugh>, I think each time it was just like, I hope it's enough to just repeat that that was some brilliance, or I hope it's enough just to make space for, you know, basically the <adrienne laughs> choir saying Amen over here. (20:57) Because that's really all I got. I mean, sure, I could <laugh>, I could try to weave my narratives and my big thoughts into this or whatever, but the truth is, I hope it's enough to not. So, I guess it's not necessarily a learning, it's just a question, as a host. And, and that, and then, I think I was really dropped into, again, the teachings of Grace Lee Boggs here, around the sacredness of conversation, the importance of conversation, the rigor, the what can happen in a conversation that's deeply transformative. It just--, I--, that felt, that feels true and clear, each time. So, I think I'm sitting with that as a host. Besides, you know, like basic technical learnings. Like, did I make sure I recorded this thing--
adrienne: Yeah.
Mia: --right? And <laugh>, how do I deal with--? You know, whatever, those little things. Is it okay if I pause for a second, as a human?
adrienne: Mm-hmm. <affirmative>
Mia: And just make way for y'all to speak, because-- <laugh>
adrienne: Oh, yeah.
Mia: --as a human. Yeah. I, I need to come back to that one.
adrienne: I thought that was the lesson <laugh> you were saying. I was like, wow <laugh>.
Mia: I mean, I'm like--. This--. I mean, I will say that--. I, I don't have to pause. I mean, I did say that, for me, emergent strategy is this really important formulation of life and trust, like, being present and available to life and trusting, like, the project that you're moving for, trusting your, you know, trusting one’s self, one's community, one's drives to move us in the right place. And so, even in the places where it feels murky and uncertain, unclear, really hard, dis--, uncomfortable, challenging, like, all those places, it's like--, oh, right. Like, <laugh> oh, right. Let's witness and hear and be a part of this really miraculous gift of being awake and then trusting.
Sage: So good.
adrienne: That's lovely.
Sage: <trills tongue>
Mia: How about for you, Sage?
Sage: (23:04) For me, the thing that--, as a host that I'm walking away with really deeply is the beauty of relationship and, and how that gets built, and in--, even in these small moments. I came in with, you know: I have questions, I did my research, you know, had little, had little notes and things like that. But what it meant to sit with people and be led and really be in this beautiful, sort of, dance of, like, this is where you're headed. Oh, I'm gonna go there. Maybe it comes back to the notes that I had, maybe it doesn't. To be able to drop into that relationship, that connection and that level of intimacy with folks was really beautiful. It was really, really grateful. And I think that, as a host, it became really important to me to be led as much as I'm creating space, right? Like, to really follow the folks that I'm talking with. Cause that's why they're here! They're, they're--, we asked to talk to them because they're brilliant and because they're doing amazing things in the world, and cause they have so much to offer, and, and let my curiosity kind of just, just free it up, just free it up to me. Like, Ooh, okay, so, ooh, you just said that--what about this? Or, ooh, you said--. Like, I just felt like the, the, the most excited, you know, eight year old that wants to ask all the questions <laugh>. And I'm like, Oh, you said this, what about that? You know, does this look like this? You know, and, and, yeah, that, that to me was--, as someone who often identifies as a little socially awkward, like, I'm not really someone--, like, how do you talk to people? You know, <laugh>, I felt like this really helped build a skill, and, and, and not even just a skill, but like a human capacity to, to be in--, to, to quickly drop into a deeper level of intimacy and, and back and forth relationship with folks in the things that they were offering. (25:04) And so that felt really, really sweet to me. And as a human, I just--. I--I'm laughing because you referenced the conversation I had with Jonathan, adrienne, and we talked about this already. Like, I, I, I don't know that I've ever heard myself in such a high voice for such an extended period of time.
adrienne: It was so cute, Sage. <Mia laughs> You're like, Oh, so awesome.
Sage: It's part really embarrassing. And also part--, part because in, in so many of my conversations and in--, in so--, what I'm, what I'm experiencing is just delight.
adrienne: Mm-hmm.
Sage: Just pure, unadulterated, like, delight that I am in conversation with this person, that they have--, they're willing to, to sit in this time, and, and what's coming out of it. And I don't often talk about pleasure activism like in, in, in, and--, but this was certainly a moment for me of which emergent strategy and pleasure activism were, like, laying side by side throughout this podcast series for me, like--
adrienne: Yeah.
Sage: --really deeply. Like, this is--, this is exciting. This is a place I'm--, that my spirit feels like it is singing; I am skipping in gratitude, sounding like I'm about to sing Edelweiss. I'm just in, in, in, in wonder. MawuLisa, who was one of the first folks I interviewed, also is someone I talk to often, you know, asked me once, like, do I know what, you know, to study my peace? And I was like, okay, I, I, I can study my piece, but when I go back to this podcast, I get to study my joy.
adrienne: Yes.
Mia: Mmm.
Sage: And I'm like, Oh, okay, that--, oh, that's what it feels like. Like, it's a reminder in my own body and, and in, in the sounds and, and just how the conversations flow of, like, to me, this is what my joy looks like, and this is what it feels like.
adrienne: (27:04) I think we all have those vocal cues, you know, that, like, it--, as the energy starts moving in us that--. I will say something I learned as a host--. I think one is that, you know, my tendency is to be, like, Oh, these are my friends that I know already, let me interview them. And in some ways, it was actually easier for me to be a host with people I didn't know as well. And I really enjoyed getting to listen to the interviews that you all did with people that I was really close to, because it felt like getting to step out of the way I already am in worship of them, and, like, find out new things to worship. Like, I was like, dang, these people are so smart. And you know, you know, you know that, cause it's like, oh, that's why we--, that's why we friends. But there was something really powerful about, about, <Mia and adrienne laugh> as a host, getting to bear witness from a different perspective. And I found that when I was interviewing people that I didn't know as well, it was also--, I felt like I was able to--, I think I asked better questions, cause I think I was like, Oh, let me actually formulate these questions. Whereas with people that I knew better, there was a little bit more of like, just tell 'em smart you are. Just tell 'em, tell 'em, tell 'em! You know how you do that smart thing? <laugh> Just tell 'em that thing. And so I, I just noticed that as a host <laugh>. I also noticed that, I think similar to what y'all are saying, the witnessing, listening, and being led by what, what people wanted to talk about was so compelling. And we created, you know, the--, we generated--, all three of us generated questions for every episode, and we would come up with, like, more questions than you could ask in several episode because that's who we are. <Sage and adrienne laugh>. We have lots of questions. And I definitely, over and over again, would be like, look at the questions: maybe we got through two of those, but something else happened, and it was powerful. I think the questions we came up with were good ones that helped dive us in. But then once we were down in there, it was like, Okay, let's, let's stay here. Let's stay with these folks here. And yeah, I like, I like being a host where I only have to host a third of the content, also. Like, it's really nice to be able to be surprised by two thirds of the content that comes out into the world. <laugh> You know, I'm just like, wow! This podcast is amazing. <laugh>. Like, I kept thinking that and being like, right! I'm, I'm part of it too. As a human, I, I think a lot of, a lot of, a lot of lessons around breath. (29:42) Like, I just felt like I kept learning and being invited in a million different ways to give myself a little bit more breath, to give a little bit more breath in the world. Like, I, I continuously felt like I had entered the podcast moving too quickly, and by the end of it, I was back in the right <laugh> pace of life. So that feels important to me to be like, Oh, right, like, my tendency right now is to pick up the pace and go a little too fast, maybe a lot too fast sometimes. And something about the conversations that happen here, and I think something about the nature of emergent strategy in general, is that it needs more breath. It needs a slowing down, which feels very profound to receive as a lesson. And then listening to MawuLisa and Jomo and, and Jennifer and Prentiss and Sendolo and Shalewa <laugh>, there were--, we had so many folks in this space who have also been in Black somatic space, Black embodiment space, you know, Black Organizing for Leadership and Dignity, Black dance, Black joy. And I feel like the overarching thing was, there's something about protecting the Black body and Black joy in the Black body that is fundamental to human liberation. And as I was listening to those interviews and conversations, it felt like a, a reminder to me as a, as--, in my human self, that it's like the, the work I do for my own liberation, the liberation of Black people in my life, the liberation of Black people in general is like, Oh yeah. Right. That's not just for us. It's not just for me or for us, but it's actually fundamental to all human liberation. And I felt like that, that was a real theme for me this season.
Music Break: (31:41) Wage Love” plays. Lyrics: “Wage love, wage love, wage love. Wage love, wage love, wage love. This is for Sheddy R. Dedicate this with a heavy heart.
Mia: Mmm. I wanna tack in there the conversation you had with Walidah and Calvin.
adrienne: Oh, and Calvin.
Mia: Around the radical Black imagination, too--
adrienne: Mm-hmm.
Mia: --right? Because those, to me, go hand in hand.
adrienne: Yes.
Mia: It was incredibly dreamy. Like, I was like, Oh yeah, I don't--, as someone who doesn't give myself as much space for imagination, and--, even though I know the power of it, it was such an important reminder of, like, how important this tool is. How important it is to tap into the freedom of that space <laugh>, and then what it can generate for others in connection. That, to me, is also deeply tied to that space of joy and embodiment. I love that we centered Black joy and Black embodiment and Black imagination in a lot of this. <laugh>
adrienne: Yes.
Sage: In a lot of it.
adrienne: Mm.
Mia: Mm-hmm.
adrienne: Yeah, me too. <laugh>. I was just like, Oh, look at that. <laugh> So, question I have for y'all is, does it feel like this podcast is working at what we wanted it to do, which is to be a project of decentralization of emergent strategy? Like to help people see and experience how vast emergent strategy is in terms of where it's being practiced and held? Does it feel like we're, we're on the right path?
Sage: (33:27) It does <laugh>. It does, it absolutely does. Like, I, I even just, kind of, still scrolling through, thinking in my mind of the different episodes, like, the vastness of ways folks in this, this season have talked about emergent strategy inside--, whether it's, you know, theater, abolition, how you understand yourself as an organizer in the world, spirituality, like, all these things, like all these layers. It certainly has felt like that to me. I hope it's felt like that to people who have engaged it. And it has certainly pushed and expanded where I put emergent strategy inside my shape.
Mia: Mm. That's deep, Sage <laugh>
adrienne: I know. I love it.
Sage: Well, facts is facts. I'm just saying. It is what it is.
Mia: Absolutely. I mean, I think, it's important in the sharing of a vision that you have examples of how people are practicing and to know that the practice isn't just a one way in one space through one voice or container. So I think, you know, absolutely. <laugh> That to me isn't the question. I think the thing--. I was sitting with, like, is it working? I was like, I don't know, I don't--, I guess I don't really get enough feedback from people about if they got something out of it, or if they're listening, or--. I'm like, there's a part to me that is curious from that side. So I feel like this is an invitation to listeners, like, how is this hitting you? How does it impact you? Does it give you inspiration or excitement or examples that you can lean into or, you know, glean from, learn with? But I, I do occasionally get the like, Oh, that was profound or, That was important. So yeah. So I think yeah, I felt a little bit unable to answer the question from the space of, is it working? I can say that for me, it's working <laugh>. It's working <laugh>.
Sage: Yeah. Yeah.
Mia: (35:47) It's definitely working. I love--, I--. Yeah, I'm, I'm in absolutely--, I'm an absolute love with emergent strategy and the way in which it is moving through the world, and the, and the beautiful human beings who are choosing to be rigorous in this process and to be shaped, and they are absolutely shaping and impacting me. But yeah, I'm excited to hear from others about if it's working, including you, adrienne. Whatchu think?
adrienne: I mean, for me, I'm like, Yes, <laugh>, it's definitely working. Because of that, you know, that I'm like, I, I feel like the fact that every other week I get to hear in depth, you know, case studies, basically, of, of what emergent strategy is like in people's lives, and that so many of our guests were like, I'm not just simply a yes. You can't just throw emergency strategy on me and my work. Like, but here's what I'm up to that is aligned or in a dance with. Like, it feels like--, it feels like a decentralization of the concepts without necessarily trying to stamp or brand everyone with sameness. Like it--, for me, I, I've been feeling like an exploration of it in all of its complexity, which has been exciting. And I think similarly, Mia, I love you as the evaluation hat <laugh> in, like--. Cause I'm like, similarly, I'm like, I would like to hear more from others. You know, the listeners that we have are super loyal and give really positive feedback, which is always yummy and wonderful. And maybe we need to do a little survey or something that allows us to hear more from people and, you know, find out ways to get this in more ears, you know, to more people. So, yeah. But I'm, I'm glad that, for at least the three of us, it feels like we're moving in that direction. You know, at the end of this first season, first round of the experiment.
Sage: (37:47) For me, both of you named things that, that are part of what makes it--, me believe it works. It's like, rigor and complexity, right? Like, and that those don't get to live in any particular province.
adrienne: Yes.
Sage: And that's, that's what the, the podcast shows.
adrienne: Yeah.
Sage: Like, rigor and complexity can live in so many different ways--
adrienne: Yes.
Sage: --that don't necessarily constrict us or make us smaller, but actually, that through rigor and complexity, we have more possibility in all kinds of avenues that we never even imagined.
Mia: Yes. And you know what it did do, too? It was just--, just to remember that first episode when I was like, emergent strategy is also not fuckshit. These people were clearly not fuckshit <laugh>.
Sage: Clearly.
Mia: It was--. So again, excuse me, for the babies.
adrienne: Clearly not fuckshit.
Mia: But you know, like, it's really clear <laugh> that they're about. They're, they're about a project in this. They're about a purpose, they're about an intention, and the calling is clear and they're, like, every possible avenue, we have to do this right. And this is a really important one. Let me keep working and trying and let me keep learning as I try. Yeah so.
Sage: And I think for the--
adrienne: That's right.
Sage: --sake of, right? I think that comes clear for the sake of. What you were referencing, adrienne, like for the sake of our liberation, for the sake of, you know, that, that, yeah. I don't know if there was an episode I didn't listen to that I came my way from that I was like, Ooh, I need to level up <laugh> you know?
Mia: Okay.
adrienne: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like that like, I--we, I--we, you know, I'm like, Oh, you know. I just--, I'm like, oh, we've got it covered from philanthropy to education, to cultural organizing, all these different spaces. Like, people are experimenting and learning, and there's ways to level up wherever you are. We're gonna keep going with this experiment. We're gonna keep doing this. We're gonna give it another year <laugh>.
Sage: Yay.
adrienne: (39:47) We're super into it. We wanna build it. We wanna grow it. We want you to tell your friends, and we wanna share with you just a few highlights, or anticipatory highlights, from next season. So, we have some great guests lined up. And maybe I can start with this one. I can share a couple of the people that I'm really geeked about. Michaela Harrison is gonna be on the podcast next year. And Michaela--, I just last night got to go sit in a barn and listen to whale songs that she has recorded in Brazil. The whales singing to us and trying to give us some of their wisdom about being interconnected on this planet. And Michaela singing to them, and the chorus between, and all of us learning some songs to sing to bless water and to bless the whales and their wisdom. I'm very excited to have her come on the show and teach us some of what she knows and what she understands. I'm super excited to have Spenta Kandawalla come on the show, who has been one of my long-term teachers in the somatic journey, somatic pathway, how I've learned embodiment, <laugh>. So, I'm really geeked that she's gonna be on the show with us. And then, I'm really excited that Complex Movements is gonna be on the show with us. Complex Movements, which Sage is a part of, is a collective that, basically we've developed in parallel. Emergent strategy--
Sage: Mm-hmm.
adrienne: (41:20)--and Complex Movements have developed at the same time, both deeply in love with emergence and creating responses to it. And theirs has been really cultural and musical and visual and virtual and magical. So, those are some highlights for me, people I'm gonna get to be and talk with. What about for you, Sage?
Sage: I'm really--, I'm, I'm excited about the intergenerationality <laugh> of, of the next--
adrienne: Talk about it,
Sage: --season. Particularly of the folks that I'm going to get to talk with. Almost half of them are, are OGs, you know, elder sisters, you know, older than, than I am.
adrienne: Right.
Sage: And, and as, as someone who is--, I'm in my Chiron return. I am, you know, looking at the half a century coming up, and I'm really reflective and really excited to be in conversation with some long-term just brilliant women: Alta Starr, Makani Themba, Rosie Gordon Wallace, and Vicki Meek. Thelma Golden. These are women that are, are beautifully moving in the world at--, in, in a sort of generational space that I am on the cusp of. And so I'm, I'm really excited to talk with them in our next season.
adrienne: Yes. What about you, Mia?
Mia: Ooh. I'm so excited, geeked out, nervous, all of the things, all of the, like, extensions of that. <adrienne and Mia laugh>
Sage: True.
Mia: All the ways. So, I get to have a conversation with the lovely Dr. Moya Bailey. I mean, first of all, I love how I get a lot of doctor. You know, I, I had Dr. Alexis Pauline Gumbs.
adrienne: (43:14) You get the doctors.
Mia: --and I ha--
adrienne: We did give you doctors.
Mia: Dr. <adrienne and Mia laugh> Moya Bailey, which is, you know, [TWO WORDS UNCLEAR] (42:23)
Sage: Okay.
Mia: Yeah. Brilliant, brilliant, brilliant <laugh> Black women really sitting at these intersections, I love--, around digital media, social media, health, our wellness and the value of Black women. Uh! So, very exciting. And then, Daria Garina's conversation about accountability and transformative justice and yeah. Such an important one, right? Like, such, like the--, for me, feels like a key and a crux to, like, you know, how we do better when we've done harm, how to show up for when we have been harmed and to get what we need, but, like, how to fundamentally also deal with some of the stickiness of guilt and shame that gets in the way of accountability. Yeah, and then I got like some, not OGs, but OGs in my life. Like, folks like Mia Mingus and Paris Hatcher and Lin Yee and Latham, like, folks who I've had decades with. So I'm, like, Ooh! ooh! <sings> I get excited. So yeah. And their interventions on mothering, doing land and food design, and then transformative justice. It's just--, it's exciting. It's very exciting.
adrienne: (44:47) But, I mean, this is one of the things I love about podcasting is we are who we are. And I think that comes acloss--, across very--. Acloss and across very clearly <laugh> when we are hosting, right? Is you can't really hide yourself. Yourself is always there. And we delight in the way you are. I mean, we are three people who are Black and amazing and socially awkward in a--, each of us in our own different way.
Mia: Well, you know, it's interesting, cause this past weekend I had a chance to--, and I'll say it really briefly, but like, I had a chance to sit in conversation with people who I know we have care and generally alignment, but the divergence on our alignment is so big that there--, like, it feels really important to sit in that space. And there's a part of me that was like, Wow, I--, I actually struggle to be with--, inside of a conversation like this where we aren't actually--, where, like, there isn't a praxis or understanding of emergent strategy inside of how we move in op--, you know, in the world. So, oh wow. And I'm also really grateful because I need the sharpening, and I need the ability to continue to engage in this place that I feel like so much complexity is available for growth. But it was one of those moments where I was like, Man, human conversation, really--. I can't just ask you questions and you--, and listen for the whole time? Cause <laugh>, I gotta engage? Okay.
adrienne: (46:17) It does feel like conversation as a sacred practice is an emergent theme from, from season one to season two. It's a way that we are honoring our ancestors and honoring all these people who are in these living experiments that co-create a future that we wanna live in. So, I'm really grateful that it's the three of us doing it.
Sage: Me too.
adrienne: Mm-hmm. And I'll see you in the 2022.
Sage: Yep. We'll see you then. Season two coming up! <adrienne and Mia laugh>
adrienne: We love y'all.
Sage: Wow. We've come to the end of season one of the Emergent Strategy Podcast. We're so excited you all have taken the time out of your schedules to listen to all the brilliant emergent strategists that are doing moving work in the world. And we are excited to bring you season two in March of 2022. So stay tuned, and we'll talk soon. This podcast is produced by Natalie Peart. Music for the Emergence Strategy Podcast is provided by Complex Movements, a Detroit-based artist collective. The music provided is from the soundtrack of their performance installation, Beware of the Dandelions. To support the ongoing work of ESII, make a donation at www.alliedmedia.org/esii.