Note: Dead Eyes transcripts have been generated with automated software and may contain errors. We advise you to listen to episode audio before quoting in print.
Dead Eyes, Episode 18 - “Saturday Tonight Live”
Connor Ratliff Okay. So, full disclosure: one of the, uh, one of the reasons it occurred to me to talk to you for this is because, uh, Jimmy Fallon is in Episode Five of Band of Brothers.
Alex Song-Xia Oh, that's the episode you are going to be on.
Connor Ratliff Yeah, we were going to be in the same episode of TV, uh—
Alex Song-Xia In the same scene?
Connor Ratliff Not in the, in the same scene.
Alex Song-Xia Okay. Was that early in his...like, I remember...[fades]
Connor Ratliff Alex Song-Xia is a comedian writer, actor, and a friend—
[Funky piano tune starts]
Someone I've performed with in a lot of different shows and projects over the years. One of my favorite people.
I remember the first time I saw her doing comedy in the basement of a bar back in the year 2013. It was an improv show that was happening after midnight on a Tuesday. She had a quiet confidence on stage. Not aggressive, but patient. She would be silent in a scene, sometimes for long periods of time, and then all of a sudden say the perfect, funny thing that felt both surprising and inevitable.
But I remember thinking that you were one of the funniest performers I'd ever seen.
Alex Song-Xia Oh, that's so nice.
Connor Ratliff And I was fascinated because I wasn't—I couldn't figure out what you were doing. Like, sometimes you do improv long enough, you can watch it, and you can see the moves. And I couldn't see your moves. Like—
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff —you're one of the funniest people—it wasn't a fluke, you're one of the funniest people I've ever met. And...
Alex Song-Xia I feel the same about you.
Connor Ratliff Well, thank you.
Alex Song-Xia Um, I don't know how to...um, okay. Thank you. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I remember being very excited when I saw that you had, uh, been hired by The Tonight Show.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah.
Connor Ratliff Alex started working as a writer on The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon in November of 2016. And to me, it seemed like an obviously great pairing. An incredibly funny and talented person, and an iconic late night TV institution. I sort of filed it away in my brain, like, Oh! My friend Alex writes for The Tonight Show now.
I think it was actually quite some time before I learned that she didn't work there anymore. She was at The Tonight Show for less than six months.
Connor Ratliff It occurred to me that you are someone who has...not "been fired" by Jimmy Fallon. That makes it sound like you did something wrong, you got called into his office. And he said, "You're fired."
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs] I mean, that's what it felt like at the time.
Connor Ratliff Not getting a job is one type of projection that we have to process. But it's a different thing entirely to have to reckon with landing the gig and then it not going the way you thought it would. There's the personal side of it you have to process, but then there's the other part that comes after: how you explain it to everybody else.
[Music ends]
Alex Song-Xia The first like, two months after being released back out into the world, I went on like, a slew of general meetings. And I remember every time I was asked about The Tonight Show, then, it was very much like, kind of glossing over like, not getting renewed and being like, "Oh, and then I left and I wanted to pursue,"—I don't know—"acting or whatever else," and just talking about it in the rosiest of ways. And then to like another phase of like being a little more honest about it or, or like straight up, not liking the experience and, and expressing that, um, to now maybe like a more leveled out—
Connor Ratliff Right.
Alex Song-Xia —retrospect.
Connor Ratliff When you were working at The Tonight Show, did you ever get comfortable?
[Theme music starts]
Alex Song-Xia No.
Connor Ratliff Okay. Was it fun?
Alex Song-Xia ...Times of it were. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff The phrasing of that conveys everything. [Laughs]
Alex Song-Xia Well, I, I guess because it's still remains the most recognizable name on my resume I get asked about it at almost every job interview or general meeting.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Alex Song-Xia So I've like, had practice—
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Alex Song-Xia —in describing it different ways.
Voice of God This is Dead Eyes, a podcast about one actor's quest to find out why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO miniseries Band of Brothers.
Connor Ratliff My name is Connor Ratliff. I'm an actor and comedian. Twenty years ago, I was fired by Tom Hanks. The reason I was told at the time was that he had seen my audition tape and thought I had dead eyes. And that's the short version.
Connor Ratliff You just said, "Times of it were."
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff That's your practiced, uh...That sounds like—
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs] Yes, I'm very awful in interviews!
Connor Ratliff [Laughs] That sounds like you've, you've answered it so many times that it's broken you.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
[Theme ends]
[Clip from Band of Brothers]
Ron Livingston as Captain Nixon Lieutenant, you're a godsend! What's the situation?
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice Well, I heard you guys were coming in. There was an ammo dump, so...here. Is it just you guys in the 101st?
Matthew Leitch as Staff Sergeant Floyd M. Talbert Looks like! What hit you fellas?
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice Everything.
Connor Ratliff Jimmy Fallon shows up once in Band of Brothers, in the final moments of Episode Five, "Crossroads."
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice Krauts had Tigers, Panthers, SPs, stukas, arti and infantry just kept on coming!
Connor Ratliff He arrives in a Jeep and delivers some ammunition to a group of weary soldiers who really need it.
Damian Lewis as Major Dick Winters What's your name, Lieutenant?
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice George Rice, 10th Armory.
Damian Lewis as Major Dick Winters Good work, son.
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice I'll try to make another ammo run if I can, but uh, don't count on anything.
Connor Ratliff Lieutenant George C. Rice would be an otherwise unremarkable role, except it's Jimmy Fallon. At the time he would have already been recognizable as a cast member on Saturday Night Live. So many viewers saw his appearance, not as a bit part, but a celebrity cameo. The series came in for some light criticism that it was kind of distracting to see a famous face pop-up so briefly in the middle of a show cast with mostly then unknown actors.
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice Panzer Division's about the cut the road South. Looks like you guys are going to be surrounded.
Damian Lewis as Major Dick Winters We're paratroopers, Lieutenant. We're supposed to be surrounded.
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice Good luck.
Connor Ratliff So we've got two characters, Lieutenant Rice and Private Zielinski. Both show up in the same episode, they have one scene each, just a few lines of dialogue. But one of them is highly memorable because of its high profile casting and the other needed a serialized podcast to remind audiences of who he was.
Alan Sepinwall Backstage either before or after you pulled me aside, said, "Hey, I gotta tell you this story about this time I auditioned for Band of Brothers."
Connor Ratliff This is Alan Sepinwall. Rolling Stone magazine's Chief TV Critic. He's talking about when he was the guest monologist at a UCB show I was part of back in 2019.
Alan Sepinwall And I said, "Alright, well, what role were you supposed to be playing?"
[Funky drum and bass song starts]
And you said, "Private Zielinski." I had no memory of Zielinski whatsoever, but you told me the whole thing, and then you told me about the idea of the podcast and it sounded great.
Connor Ratliff Even before meeting him, I'd been a big fan of Alan's writing. He's written extensively about Band of Brothers, and cites the series is one of his touchstones.
[Music fades]
Alan Sepinwall It definitely is. And like, if—there were so many actors in that show, so if any of them turn up anywhere else, I will shamelessly invoke Band of Brothers at some point. If a show uses like, sort of a desaturated color filter, I will mention Band of Brothers. If it starts out in sort of a too chaotic fashion and then a few episodes in they start doing character POV episodes, I'll say, "Oh, they're stealing from Band of Brothers." So I'm—I tend to see a lot of things through the lens of that particular mini-series.
Connor Ratliff I honestly don't think it's a weird thing for someone like Alan to have to be reminded of who Privates Zielinski was. The character was cast perfectly and performed unobtrusively by the actor that got the role after me, Adam Sims. On the other hand, Alan does not need to be reminded of when Jimmy Fallon shows up later on.
Alan Sepinwall In your episode. Or, not your episode, but yeah.
Connor Ratliff I wouldn't claim it's my episode in the sense that I own it—
Alan Sepinwall [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff —but the one episode that I have the faintest connection to is Episode Five, "Crossroads."
Alan Sepinwall Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And it always felt strange to me because like, David Schwimmer's in the pilot. But he has a substantial role in the pilot. It's a real part.
Alan Sepinwall Yes.
Connor Ratliff It's a—that's what the episode is about. And then it ties back in at, at the end. It, you know, you, you see him in again at the end, it it's meaningful. It's not a distracting—some people might've been distracted by it, but it has purpose.
Alan Sepinwall Whereas Fallon just rolls up to provide these guys ammo in what's otherwise supposed to be a really scary and disturbing scene where they're seeing all of these troops marching away from Bastogne looking shellshocked, basically saying, like being the ghost of Christmas future and warning them like, "You don't want to go where we've just been," and there's Jimmy Fallon providing them the only hope that they have of surviving it.
And so at the time it was really distracting. When I went back and rewatched the series again, it didn't bother me as much, I think because I'd gotten a little more used to Fallon away from Saturday Night Live, or maybe I was just used to the fact that he was already there. But I think in hindsight it was not the best casting choice.
[Pressing classical piece plays]
Connor Ratliff In 2019 CNN did an interview with Band of Brothers LA-based casting director, Meg Liberman. She was pretty frank and admitting that she had no part in casting Jimmy Fallon. In fact, when asked about it, she laughed and said, "That was, in my mind, ridiculous. And I was opposed."
I have to admit that, at the time, it sort of stung a little to see an already successful person show up in the same episode that I had been fired from. It just made me hyper aware that for me losing this role was a big deal. But for Fallon, it was something he filmed while he was on break between seasons of SNL.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff His role on the show actually feels closer to what he does on The Tonight Show in the sense that he, he kind of rolls up and he's like, "Hey guys, I got all this, I got all this ammo!"
Alan Sepinwall [Laughs]
[Band of Brothers clip, small horn honking and motor running]
Jimmy Fallon as Lieutenant George C. Rice Make a hole! Make a hole! I got ammo! Grab what you can!
Connor Ratliff ...like a crowd pleasing host.
Alan Sepinwall Yeah.
Connor Ratliff I think if someone watched it now, they think, Oh, it must've been because he's the host of The Tonight Show that he got this.
Alan Sepinwall Yeah.
Connor Ratliff Like, I think someone who didn't know the timeline would feel like they were almost making a reference with it.
Alan Sepinwall It is, it's distracting. It's very odd and—but like you say, it's also, it feels a little bit like he's setting, you know, Guarnere up to play around a beer pong or something, or one of the other games he does on the show.
Connor Ratliff I wonder if everyone else sort of leveling up fame-wise balances it out, because at the time it would have been: here's a Saturday Night Live cast member and a bunch of unknowns, who we believe are really in World War II, that it feels like there's an element of anachronism or time travel. And now you're having to do the adjustment on more than just him. You're sort of having to be like, I believe that this is a character, while also—you have a, you have a screen history—
Alan Sepinwall Yes.
Connor Ratliff —for many more people now.
Alan Sepinwall I think that's right. But I also think that like, everybody else who is now more well-known than they were at the time, they're disappearing back into 1940s. Like, they're doing—You know, other than Frank John Hughes, not a lot of them are doing the ratatat, you know, "Hey! I'm the guy from Brooklyn!" You know, who you might've seen in Stalag 17 or something—
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Alan Sepinwall But they feel like they're from the period, even though they're more famous—Jimmy, Fallon's just Jimmy Fallon. That's always going to be an issue, no matter how much the other people are able to level up to his celebrity or even beyond it.
Connor Ratliff I was watching Jimmy Fallon's scene and thinking, Well, if I didn't know who he was, there's nothing wrong with the performance. I don't think there's anything where I would be like, Oh, that's a bad actor who's just come into the scene.
Alan Sepinwall Yeah.
Connor Ratliff I don't think you'd even necessarily notice or remember the character.
Alan Sepinwall Exactly, exactly. But, would the guy in the Jeep, if it was anybody else, would he even have that much dialogue? I feel like he would show up, say, "I've got ammo," and then the whole rest of the scene would be the guys grabbing the gear and marching onto Bastogne.
Connor Ratliff Obviously I would like to talk to Jimmy Fallon about this, but so far it—A) He's very busy. He does a show every day.
Alan Sepinwall Yes.
Connor Ratliff It's one of those things where it's, it's—When someone's doing, uh, five hours of television every week, it's hard to find a time that they're going to carve out for podcasts.
I also, there's also a part of me that thinks, like I read an interview in, I think Parade magazine from a couple of years ago where someone else talks to Jimmy Fallon about being in the episode, and I kind of felt like most of those answers are probably the things that I would get if I was talking to him, he'd be like, [Jimmy Fallon impression] "Yeah, it was weird." And, you know...
Alan Sepinwall Yeah.
Connor Ratliff "Yeah, no! It was really cool to be on the episode! You know—"
Alan Sepinwall [Laughing]
Connor Ratliff "But, uh, you know, it felt weird being on the Jeep. It felt weird when I was giving out the ammo! You know?" Um…
[Mischievous classical piece starts]
Alan Sepinwall [Laughs] That's a good Fallon. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Thank you. Thank you. I don't do a lot of impressions and that isn't really a calculated impression, but I do feel like once you start talking, once you start saying certain kinds of things, I think it's fairly easy to shift into a basic generic like, "No! It was great. We were, you know, we were pretending we were in World War II, you know?!"
Alan Sepinwall [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I've spent just about a year, trying to get Jimmy on this show, going through official channels, Twitter, and at one point, even heard back from a PR firm that wanted to know what exactly I was doing.
I know people who have worked either for or with him, but everyone I talked to gave me some variation on the same answer: "He's a busy guy and would probably not be into it."
So, no Jimmy. For now.
But I gotta say sometimes the rabbit holes I fall into lead to more surprising stories than just bizarre Band of Brothers casting decisions. In this case, it led me to Alex. Yes, I knew she was hired and subsequently let go from The Tonight Show, but I didn't know the specifics of what it was like to apply for a job like that. Or what it was like to lose it.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff But you worked, you worked for, what's the term, "two cycles?"
Alex Song-Xia Two cycles. Yeah. So, well, they make you sign a contract that like, you're committing however number of years, but they decide to renew you every 13 weeks, so that's a cycle.
Connor Ratliff Oh, that's beautiful. Isn't it? Where it's like, we want you to commit for years, but we can cut this off whenever we want.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah! You know, that's fair. [Laugh]
Connor Ratliff Because they don't want you to, you know, be great and then decide to leave. If you're great, they want to hold you there.
Alex Song-Xia Right.
Connor Ratliff And if you're not, then they want to get rid of you.
Alex Song-Xia I, I do want to say, I feel like a lot of people share my experience of, of uh, credentials and then the sudden stop of it...[laughing] uh, from that specific show.
Connor Ratliff Let's start in the, in the happier part of this experience.
Alex Song-Xia Ok. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff You put together a packet, right? To apply for The Tonight Show.
Alex Song-Xia Yes, yes.
Connor Ratliff What was in that packet?
Alex Song-Xia So at the time it was, uh, when you were submitting, you submitted both monologue jokes and like, sketch materials. Uh, so they have like, sketch writers and monologue writers, and it's a separate team.
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Alex Song-Xia Uh, but I submitted three pages of monologue jokes and it said to submit like, however much existing sketch material you had. So I just, I cut together like a 10 minute video of, of sketches I had written and had filmed and submitted like, just included the link to that. And I think the, the feedback I heard from the person who was like doing the hiring seemed like he had not read the monologue jokes at all. So I'm not sure that there was a point that part. Uh, but he did like the video.
[Funky music starts]
Connor Ratliff Do you remember any of the monologue jokes that you wrote? That's a terribly unfair question.
Alex Song-Xia I don't, but I could look some up.
Connor Ratliff Tell me one, if you think that there's one that you're either really proud of or really ashamed of.
Alex Song-Xia "Tonight Show packet." Okay. Uh, well, I, I won't, I won't look for the best one. I'll just read you the first one, which—
Connor Ratliff Yeah, just take a shot.
Alex Song-Xia —maybe at the time I thought, it was the best
Connor Ratliff You, you led with it.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah.
Connor Ratliff So you must have felt something towards this joke.
Alex Song-Xia Okay. "The immigration minister for Canada, John McCallum said that Canada will let 300,000 immigrants enter the country in 2017." And this part is the joke part I wrote. "Uh, and if Trump wins, McCallum estimates they will hit that target by January 21st."
Connor Ratliff That's a dark joke.
Alex Song-Xia This packet was written on October 31st, 2016. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff [Sighs] Wow.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff So you wrote it before it had been finalized that everything was ruined.
Alex Song-Xia It was a week before the election that I wrote it and I got hired after the election.
Connor Ratliff So that must've felt like a nice balancing to how bad things were.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Like, it's nice to get some good news right after bad news.
Alex Song-Xia I guess so. I don't know if I equated the two.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff Had it always been a goal of yours to write on a late night show?
Alex Song-Xia Like, not really. I think once I started UCB it became a goal to write on something.
Connor Ratliff Just something funny and good?
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. And I guess the trajectory was like, if you lived in New York—
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Alex Song-Xia —most of the writing jobs were, uh, late night shows. I do remember after I got The Tonight Show, and I called my mom, she was very excited and I think she started telling people that I was going to write for Saturday Tonight Live. So I don't think The Tonight Show meant anything [laughing] specific for her. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff You know what's great about that title is, it's up for grabs.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs] Saturday Tonight Live. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Like, we could start a show called Saturday Tonight Live and no one could stop us.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah.
Connor Ratliff That's a great title for a show.
Alex Song-Xia It's, it's...has a ring too. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff So when you got the, um, feedback from that guy who said, "I liked the video—"
Alex Song-Xia Mhm.
Connor Ratliff What was the next phase after you got that?
Alex Song-Xia It was interesting because I knew he was a supervising writer there, but we met in a, I guess kind of informal way. I'd already heard feedback from my manager, like within the week that I submitted the packet, like, uh, she was like, "Oh, I heard whisperings that they liked your packet there." And then I think a couple of weeks later, I did a sketch cram at UCB, um...
Connor Ratliff Which is basically where you have like, 24 hours or something to write a bunch of sketches and perform them.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah, yeah, yeah. You start at like, 9:00 AM or something as a writer. And the show is at midnight. So you write until like something like a nine to five day, and then the actors come in at 6:00 PM. And then they rehearse the sketches and the show goes up at midnight.
So that supervising writer was one of the writers or directors for that sketch cram. And I noticed he like made an effort to like talk to me a bunch that day.
And then afterwards, uh, after the show, we all went to McMannis and he like, sat down and kind of just like chatted with me a bunch. And I was like, Oh, that's interesting that he's like, It seems to be giving me like special attention or anything. A few days later, I got the call from my manager that I got the job, but there was no like formal interview in the process.
Connor Ratliff Were you surprised when you got the job?
Alex Song-Xia I think I had had like, a...a feeling something might happen just because of that, like sketch cram interaction.
Connor Ratliff Right, but you were expecting maybe something else might happen. Like, you might have to go in to—
Alex Song-Xia Yeah, maybe an interview or something.
Connor Ratliff So the first time that you went in to 30 Rock after submitting the, the packet was like—
Alex Song-Xia Mhm.
Connor Ratliff —you were working there.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. I had actually only recently interned there for SNL, like, uh, so I interned in 2015, uh, in the set design department at SNL. So that was already like the like very surreal experience of like getting to go to 30 Rock for work.
Connor Ratliff It's a very grand building I would imagine, to work in.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. It's also very confusing. It's easy to get lost.
Connor Ratliff I used to love going there because I just wander around the basement stores of Rock Center.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah! Right, I would do that.
Connor Ratliff And I liked the ice skating rink and stuff, but anytime I have to go there for either a one day job, or an audition or something like that—
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff I find it very intimidating, figuring out how to get up the elevators.
Alex Song-Xia Right. Because there's so many different elevator banks. And if you go up just like a random one, it won't lead you to where you need to go.
Connor Ratliff And I've had a lot of people in Rock Center get mad at me for doing it wrong.
Alex Song-Xia Really?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Alex Song-Xia Like, the people you're there to see, or like the security people?
Connor Ratliff I'm a stupid guy.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff They're just like, I'm trying to go through the wrong elevator, they're like, "No, no, no, you're doing the wrong one."
[Pleasant, rolling funk tune starts]
I'm like, "Oh, okay. I'm sorry." And I'm just like, one of a thousand dumb people who have made the wrong mistake all day long, you know? Because they stand and they guard, this entrance to the elevators.
Alex Song-Xia Right.
Connor Ratliff And all day long, they have people who try to get through the elevator who aren't in the right spot.
Alex Song-Xia Right. Well maybe it's a design flaw for the building and not...
Connor Ratliff It's a crazy building.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs] Yeah.
Connor Ratliff I never feel like I belong in that building. Um...
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs] It's just a building.
Connor Ratliff No, it's not. It's different.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff It's different than other buildings and it knows it.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Like, it's a building that has an attitude towards everyone around it.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff How long did you think you would be there?
Alex Song-Xia I don't know. I thought about like, in terms of signing whatever paperwork I was like, I guess this could be years of my life, but I think as soon as I got there, maybe day one, but at least the first week, immediate fear that it would all be taken away. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Right.
Alex Song-Xia And then just kind of like, every week thereafter, just trying to like comfort myself of like, But that's okay. Uh, you make some money. You'll have this credit. You're not that happy anyway. It's okay. [Laughs] Uh, I'm just like talking myself through the possibility—I think because either the first day or the first week there was already like, anecdotes being told to, to us, the four new writers of like the people who didn't get renewed or like, uh, and then they were friends of ours, so...
Connor Ratliff Were you replacing anyone?
Alex Song-Xia A person we did know from UCB had worked pretty recently there and had only been there for like a cycle. And so like, his story was the one that was like very much in my head of like...
Connor Ratliff Right. You took his place.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs] Uh—
Connor Ratliff It's possible, right? It's possible that, that was the opening that allowed new writers to come in.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. Also, I, I guess I'm I'm hedging because it was a thing that was very much on my mind, but I don't think I've said it on a podcast is that, uh, I was very aware that the two writers before may who had lasted the least amount of time were both the writers of color.
[Sparse drum and bass piece starts]
Alex Song-Xia And then the rest of this, the writing staff was mostly white.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Alex Song-Xia Or if not, I think it might've been completely at the time.
Connor Ratliff Completely white.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff You were renewed for a second cycle.
Alex Song-Xia Yes.
Connor Ratliff How long was a cycle?
Alex Song-Xia Thirteen weeks, which is...three months.
Connor Ratliff Okay. So you were there for six months?
Alex Song-Xia Yes.
Connor Ratliff What did it feel like when you got renewed for the second cycle? Did it change the way you thought about it in terms of, did it get your hopes up?
Alex Song-Xia I remember it was like, it was a letter that came in the mail.
Connor Ratliff Oh, interesting.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. It was like, it was—
Connor Ratliff It's so much more formal than your hiring.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. Oh, that's a good point. Um, it was a letter that they had sent to uh, my manager's office that they had then sent in like, certified mail back to me.
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Alex Song-Xia And it was just like, "You're renewed," for—but on like, official NBC letterhead, I guess.
Connor Ratliff Did you keep the letter? Are you a person who holds on to things like that?
Alex Song-Xia Oh, I hold onto everything. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Alex Song-Xia I'm trying to throw away more things. So it exists somewhere, I bet.
Connor Ratliff How'd you feel when you got that letter?
Alex Song-Xia Um, it felt good. And then the three other writers who had started the same day as me also were renewed. Um, so it was kind of like a sigh of relief, but then I guess, uh, a ticking clock again until the next.
Connor Ratliff Did you have a premonition or was there a period where it started to feel like, I maybe am not going to get renewed.
Alex Song-Xia When it happened it was a surprise because it happened earlier than I thought. Like, the cycle is thirteen weeks and then the day they called me in to tell me I wasn't getting renewed, uh, was right after we had spent, uh, a week in Orlando for the show, uh, which was very fun. I had a good time.
Connor Ratliff Is that for the Jimmy Fallon rollercoaster?
Alex Song-Xia It's like one of those motion simulator rides.
Connor Ratliff Where you're not really moving, but the screen...
Alex Song-Xia Yeah yeah, so you're like—
Connor Ratliff It's like shaking you. Right?
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. Kind of like that.
Connor Ratliff So you spent a week in Orlando. Was that a fun week?
Alex Song-Xia Yeah, um. I had a really good time and it was like, one of the earlier times where I felt confident that Jimmy maybe knew my name now. Because he—we played Quiplash at one point in his office, like, all the writers, and at one point like Jimmy's like, "I got you Alex," or something. And I think, I didn't understand what he said and I kind of brushed it off [laughs]. And from time to time, I still think about that moment as like, [laughing] is that when he was like, "we have to get rid of her!"
Connor Ratliff Because you think he thought, I said her, I said her name and she didn't—
Alex Song-Xia —in a supportive way and she did not care. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff That's an interesting thing to ponder.
[Soft shuffle piano piece]
Alex Song-Xia It's, uh, almost has no legs or basis in real...logic.
Connor Ratliff After the fact, it's very easy to go back and think about stuff like that. That like, that day they were like, "Well, today's the day we're going to say Alex's name."
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And we'll—And I bet she'll get a real kick out of this.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughing] Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And then he does it, and you don't react to it. He thinks, Well, she just sealed her fate. Now we're not going to renew her. I was expecting something in return. Does she know my name?
Alex Song-Xia [Laughing]
Connor Ratliff Do you think he was like, "Alex doesn't even know my name."
Alex Song-Xia Um...
Connor Ratliff "She didn't say 'Thanks, Jimmy.'"
Alex Song-Xia I...hope that's what he thought. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff When we return, I talk to Alex about her final day at The Tonight Show. Dead Eyes will be right back.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff For the non-renewal you get invited into an office?
Alex Song-Xia Okay, so setting like, the time of year it's, it's April, we, we, uh, we did the week in Orlando, then we had a week off.
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Alex Song-Xia Like a hiatus week. And then, uh, we're back to work. This first week back goes by, and it's not until Thursday, which was a day that I had a bit on the show. It was just like a recurring—Like, I always produced the hashtag segment along with another writer. We would like, uh, we were guaranteed facetime with Jimmy at least once a week because of this recurring bit—
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Alex Song-Xia —uh, that we kind of inherited from other writers. So that Thursday, uh, we had already gotten the jokes approved and then I get a phone call to like, my desk phone from one of the like, showrunners' assistant that they wanted to meet with me after the show that night. And I think it was a double taping day, too. So it was like, we had like a five o'clock taping and then also an eight o'clock taping.
Connor Ratliff To do a Thursday and a Friday show both on the same day?
Alex Song-Xia I believe so, yeah. Or...
Connor Ratliff Was that a, is that a normal thing?
Alex Song-Xia At the time it was like, a special occasion, but I think they do that every single week now.
Connor Ratliff So on that Thursday, you did two shows and you were in one of them.
Alex Song-Xia I had a bit in one of them. Yeah, um—
Connor Ratliff But you're on camera in one of them.
Alex Song-Xia No.
Connor Ratliff No, you're not? Okay.
Alex Song-Xia No.
Connor Ratliff You wrote a bit. Were you ever on camera?
Alex Song-Xia No. And [laughing]...yeah, no.
Connor Ratliff Was there a, uh, an extra element to that? Because sometimes writers will have bits on camera, right? Yeah.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah, yeah. Um, no, it was just, it felt maybe at times political who...
Connor Ratliff Who got on camera.
Alex Song-Xia Who got on camera. Yeah.
Connor Ratliff Right. So you did two shows, and you knew you had a meeting after.
Alex Song-Xia Yes. And as soon as I got that phone call of like, "Oh, can you meet with us after the second taping?" my stomach just dropped and like, the co-writer for the bit, I like, went to her and was just like, "I think it's going to happen tonight. And I think, I don't think I'm getting renewed."
And so she like, pumped me back up and I like, did my job for the rest of the day. I don't know. It was overall a fun day. Like, I think any day you get a bit on, it's like...
Connor Ratliff Exciting.
Alex Song-Xia Just exciting.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. And...
Connor Ratliff So the second show ends.
Alex Song-Xia Second show ends, and I'm just like, sitting in my office, which I shared with my friend who had also started the same day as me. And he almost always left after me, which, you know, that might be part of the problem is that I never really went above and beyond, [laughs] but, uh, that was the one day he had like, to go to drinks with his manager or something. So that was the one day he left before I did. And I was just like, sitting in the room alone and just like, so nervous.
I finally get the phone call on my desk to like, go over and I do. And it's like, two of the show runners sitting with like, a chair ready for me. And I, I forget if there was a little bit of a preamble of like, at one point, they kept starting to say like, "We really love you," [laughs] but they, um, they're essentially like, "It's not the right fit and we're not going to renew you."
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Alex Song-Xia So anyways, they say this. I, unable to stop myself, am immediately just like, tears falling down my face, but I [laughs] am so startled by it that I start laughing. So I'm like, just like smiling through just like, tears streaming down my face. And they're saying like, you know, "We're happy to write you a recommendation, like, anytime for anywhere." At one point one of the showrunners does keep saying, like, "We love you." And I kept being like, "Does he want me to say, I love you too? I don't know what to say right now."
But I guess the timing was also surprising because there was a few weeks left of the 13-week cycle. And I did have the question of like, "Do, like—Like, there is work tomorrow? Am I supposed to come in? Am I supposed to finish out the cycle?" I think I must have asked that in some way, like, "Do I still keep coming?"
And they were like, "Oh, well, you know, like, other writers have like, taken that time to like start looking for their next job, but you will like, be paid through the end of the cycle." So it was like, it might've been like four full weeks before the end of the like, 13-week cycle.
Connor Ratliff Wow.
Alex Song-Xia So I still was paid—
Connor Ratliff You were two-thirds of the way through your—
Alex Song-Xia Through that—yeah.
Connor Ratliff Did you come back?
Alex Song-Xia No.
Connor Ratliff So you left and then you were gone that day?
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. So I go back to my office. I think I closed the like, glass door for a little bit, cry a little bit and then the other two writers who had started the same day as me, it was Colin Elzie and Jo Firestone are still in their office next door. And I like, go over and tell them what happened. And Jo comes over and just like, you know, gives me a really great pep talk and then helps me clean through this giant stack of scripts I have on my desk, because as we mentioned earlier, [laughing] I don't ever throw anything away.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Alex Song-Xia So I'd like, kept every single script, uh, like with my name on the cover of it.
[Soft, melancholy piano shuffle starts]
So if you have like a bit on the show, you, your name is on the cover of the script that day. So we went through the entire pile, got rid of, most of it. I also had never really decorated my office, always had the sense of impending doom, so it was pretty quick to like take down—like, I had like, one little watercolor painting that I got from a Secret Santa gift. Uh, I took that off the wall.
And then, [laughs] Jo like, pushed me on the like, rolly chair down the hallway. And that was very fun. [Laughs] It was, it was like, a ride to the copy room to recycle everything.
And then Colin and Jo like, took a car to Brooklyn with me. And we got a drink at Hot Bird, which also no longer exists in Brooklyn. And that was, that was that day.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff It's been years now, since you were on Tonight Show. Do you think that you were a good fit when you were there?
Alex Song-Xia ...No.
Connor Ratliff But is that—You're also very modest and self-deprecating—
Alex Song-Xia [Laughing] Sure.
Connor Ratliff And like—
Alex Song-Xia But I'm not exactly sure what—I, uh, I don't know if I would say flat out I was not a good fit. I did agree like, when they were like, "It's not—" Like, I wasn't...like, I didn't feel like my pitches were really going anywhere for like, new bits and stuff. Occasionally it was frustrating because I would pitch something and it would get to the phase of like, getting pitched to the celebrity guest and they would like it. But then through what felt like a random or...a process, they would just go with a diff—like, it wasn't the guest choosing. Like, someone else would just be like, "Oh, let's just do this other thing with them."
Connor Ratliff Right. And it's your—[laughing] like, the fate of your material seems to be like, in a randomizer?
Alex Song-Xia Yeah. Randomizer or just like, I didn't feel like there was anyone that was necessarily championing me that was like, above me. And it felt like that was maybe necessary in order to like, go from pitch through the various stages of nos to finally like, being on air.
I don't necessarily think that I was the best fit, but I think more than anything, maybe I wasn't ready at the time? But I do think like having gone through that process, I like, learned a lot, both about the pace of like, a show like that, but also just, I think I learned about myself more than anything of like, how I behave in a writer's room. And that's like still a thing I'm working on.
Connor Ratliff Do you like the idea of being in a writer's room?
Alex Song-Xia I think in any writer's room, like, I tend to just be the person who's like very comfortable riffing once the riffing has started. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Mhm.
Alex Song-Xia But that doesn't really contribute anything real to... [laughs]
Connor Ratliff You don't start the riffing?
Alex Song-Xia Um...I don't start the riffing and I don't necessarily start with like, "What about this idea?" Uh, I just, I know I'm able to make a room laugh.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Alex Song-Xia So at least my voice was heard at some point, even though that riff doesn't necessarily contribute anything to the final product of the show.
Connor Ratliff Right.
Alex Song-Xia So the most recent show I worked on, I like, try to be like, okay, if I like, sense something that could be improved, I'm going to like, point it out, but also propose a solution. So I'm, uh, I think I listened to some podcasts about like the different roles in the writer's room, and was like, "Oh, there's a person who could be like, giving possible solutions." So I tried to do that instead of just being the person who's like, this is isn't working. Or, I don't know if they, they highlighted the role of someone who just like does riffs [laughing] in a room. But the sense I get is that that is not necessarily the most helpful person. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I think one thing that is, uh, really healthy about experiences like this is, it doesn't sound like it was your dream job that you, you would have necessarily wanted to be there for a decade. You know? Like, it might've actually been more painful if you'd been there a year-and-a-half or something.
Alex Song-Xia And also timing wise, at least then I like, booked my first ever, and I guess at, at the time of recording, only, uh, feature film role, pretty shortly after in a way that if I had stayed on for another cycle, I would not have been able to do it.
Connor Ratliff When I look at your talent compared to what I sometimes sense is like, uh, your confidence level...
Alex Song-Xia Mhm.
Connor Ratliff Being out of sync in the sense of like, uh, if I had your talent, I would be so confident all the time.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff You know? And I'm reasonably confident, you know, I'm not—
Alex Song-Xia I think you are so talented, though. So, do you have the same [laughs] thing that you're rightly diagnosing in me?
Connor Ratliff I don't think I could put together a packet for The Tonight Show if my life depended on it.
[Funky upbeat organ tune starts]
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Like, just the act of putting together, like, "Write a bunch of monologue jokes!"
I'd be like, "Can I write jokes that sort of deconstruct the idea of a monologue joke?" I think I can—There's things I could do, I don't think I could ever get hired by The Tonight Show.
Alex Song-Xia Okay. Well, okay. I do also want to say that like, not across the board, but sometimes when you do do something weirder, that is very, you like, that's when they're like, "Oh, okay, now we're paying attention to this!"
Connor Ratliff I still, I still keep trying to, uh, find a way for you and I to have a show that is a real show that is our job.
Alex Song-Xia That would be amazing.
Connor Ratliff Uh, I think it should happen and I always have ideas for it, but it's, it's a matter of, uh, tricking someone with money—
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff — into funding that show. Do you want to read a second monologue joke?
Alex Song-Xia All right. I'm trying to think...[fades]
Connor Ratliff When I first found out that Alex had been hired by The Tonight Show, I was happy for her, but honestly, I was happier for The Tonight Show. I thought, Wow, what a great hire. It never even occurred to me that it wouldn't last. Even though for Alex, it was something she thought about from the very start.
Alex Song-Xia Um, okay. So this is a monologue joke that I wrote and I thought maybe Jimmy Fallon would say, um, uh, sorry. Okay.
"Actor Idris Elba won his first professional kickboxing bout at York Hall the other day. 'Is there anything that man can't do?' said my wife."
Connor Ratliff [Laughter]
Alex Song-Xia [Laughter]
Connor Ratliff That took a very personal turn.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughs] I'm not exactly sure if that is a joke. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I'm not either. Is that alt-comedy? I don't know.
Alex Song-Xia [Laughing] I don't know if that's comedy.
Connor Ratliff I can't picture—[laughs] I can't picture him saying that on the show.
Alex Song-Xia ...ever referencing his life. Um, so in that sense, uh, no, I was not a good fit for The Tonight Show Starring Jimmy Fallon. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Of course, there are those people who might say that Jimmy Fallon wasn't a good fit for the role of George C. Rice in Band of Brothers. I'm not one of them [laughs] one, because I'd still like to have Jimmy on the podcast. And two, because I'm the last person who's going to say that any actor should or shouldn't have been replaced in Episode Five of Band of Brothers.
So, sometimes even when you get the gig on the prestigious and iconic television show, it turns out to be more like a detour in a long and varied career than a dream job.
[Music fades]
["Charmer" by Aimee Mann begins]
And yeah, people can argue and debate whether a particular actor is a distraction or not. But turn on the episode. Fast-forward to those last few moments, and there's Jimmy. He got the part, and he made the cut. He's in there and it's forever. End of discussion.
Dead Eyes is a production of Headgum Studios. It was created by me, Connor Ratliff. It's written by me, and it's mostly me that you hear talking, including now.
The show is produced and edited by Harry Nelson and Mike Comite.
Special thanks to my guests Alex Song-Xia and Alan Sepinwall, who has a new podcast called Too Long; Didn't Watch, where he and a celebrity guest watched the first and last episodes of a long-running TV series.
Also, thanks to Aimee Mann for letting us use this song that's playing in the background. It's the title track from her 2012 album, Charmer. Fun fact: if you look up the official music video for this, it stars Laura Linney who played Tom Hanks's wife in the motion picture Sully.
If you like Dead Eyes, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do. Subscribe, rate review, follow us on Twitter @deadeyespodcast and talk about us nicely on social media. If you want to reach out, the email address is deadeyespodcast@gmail.com.
Please tell your friends about this show, especially if you are friends with Tom Hanks, whose hosting of the recent Inauguration Day TV special Celebrate America saw him standing outside the Lincoln Memorial in fairly cold weather, introducing various segments like a pro. It was exactly what I, and I assume a lot of people, needed to see at the beginning of a new administration after a very long four years with a daunting journey still ahead of us.
See you next time. Stay safe. Wear a mask.