Transcript
Dark Room Ballet on NFB “Scene Change” Podcast
Episode 21
June 2022
Intro – 0:14
Welcome to "Scene Change", a podcast by the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. All about equality, opportunity, accessibility, and the arts. Here, you'll learn about the techniques from performers in the know. We are changing what it means to be blind at one stage at a time. Thank you for joining us today.
Lizzy 0:41 – Introducing Krishna
Hello, everybody, and welcome to Scene change. I'm Lizzy Muhammad Park, the Vice President of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts Division and your host of the show. We have a very interesting episode for you today. Krishna Washburn is a professional ballet dancer, and she's the artistic director and sole teacher of 'Dark Room Ballet'. This is an online ballet course specifically for blind dancers. She's got something for everyone. She's got intro courses, they are eight weeks long, and she also has open courses for experienced blind professionals. They are tuition free. So if you're interested in ballet, I strongly recommend that you reach out to her. Her summer course is beginning on June 25, and Registration closes on June 18. So we're actually putting this episode out a bit earlier. So that anyone who's interested can actually get in there before registration closes. Now she's highly qualified to teach these courses. She's danced with several prestigious companies, has a master's in education, and also has multiple certificates from the American College of Sports Medicine. She's also blind herself. I'm so glad to interview her today, and welcome her to the show. Welcome to show Krishna.
Krishna
Thank you so much for inviting me on the show, Lizzy it is such a pleasure to be here. I would also just like to add that I have with me today. The 'Dark Room Ballet' program coordinator and lead administrator and also my dearest friend in my heart of hearts. Alejandra Ospina she's also here with us today.
Alejandra
Thank you so much for having me.
Lizzy
So glad to have both of you with us, but before we get started, Krishna, I mentioned just about all of your educational background except for one which I've purpose purposely saved for last. I did not know that you attended Barnard College in New York.
Krishna
I did, about 7000 years ago
Lizzy 3:10 – How it’s like to be a blind ballet instructor
No matter no matter, you know what? No, once the seventh sister always the seventh sister of my book, I went to Barnard so that is very close to my heart, and I said oh well, I see why we hit it off from the very beginning. Now this audience knows that it's possible to dance ballet as a blind person. We've interviewed three ballet dancers in the past, but what we've not done is interviewed a ballet instructor. Could you just give us some insight, just an overview of what the process is for teaching 'Dark Room Ballet', I know you send out some vocabulary ahead of classes. You sent out the Zoom link, you make space for a q&a. Just tell us what it's like from your end?
Krishna
Well, the most important thing to recognize is that my job is not a common one. There are not many blind and visually impaired advanced educators, and there is a huge amount of structural ableism that prevents them from being more and I personally came up against a lot of that, in my efforts to get 'Dark Room Ballet' off the ground. Now I have been teaching without any breaks, really since the start of the pandemic, but prior to that, rarely would I have an opportunity to teach more than maybe three or four classes at a time for any given institution and never really had opportunities to develop these long well developed relationships with students to help them learn. I and grow in their careers. So I just want to say that it's lonely. It's lonely, not having a large number of blind dance education colleagues to confer with. What I will say is, because I do have a specific educational background, and I've actually studied education, most people who teach ballet, do not have studies in Education at all, unless they're teaching in like a public elementary school, they will not have studied, you know, like human cognition or development or things like that, and also, I have had training in human anatomy and bio-mechanics through the American College of Sports Medicine, which is also something that most dance instructors don't have. A lot of dance instructors don't even know which muscles in which bones cause what movements. So what you're planning on describing to your student in terms of what to feel and what to use, is actually inaccurate. So I feel like, in some ways, I have advantages in terms of developing curriculum, because I just have more background knowledge. All of my curriculum is designed for adults who are blind or visually impaired, there is no advantage to be able, being able to see in my class, all you need to be able to do is listen, think and know what you understand and don't understand. That's where question and answer time comes in. If you can trust yourself to be able to separate what you're learning into those two categories, this is what made sense to me today. This is what feels right to me today. This is what doesn't make sense to me today. This is where my meta-cognition recognizes a gap. You talk to me, and we work things through kind of like a conversational Socratic style of learning, which has actually been shown through educational research to be the best way of absorbing complex information. I think that the tradition of ballet teachers, yelling at a student, and telling them that they're making a mistake, is probably the least effective way of helping a person learn, but because I literally cannot do that, that is really the majority of where the prejudice has come from, in terms of whether institutions will employ me as a dance educator, because I do not have the capacity to yell at a student and say, Hey, you're doing it wrong, but that's not an effective way of helping somebody learn anyway.
Alejandra
So I am not a blind person. I'm a sighted person, but I'm a wheelchair user and my formative experiences with Krishna have been in the world of physically integrated dance, we worked together with the company for a while, and Krishna often says that she's doing this work, so she can eventually replace herself.
Krishna
Yes, that’s correct
Alejandra
Lizzy, you mentioned that you have spoken to other blind or visually impaired dancers, but this is the first time you have spoken to a blind dance instructor, and that's because there aren't really that many around as far as we know, in the English speaking world, and certainly not that many who are doing this instruction entirely over zoom. Krishna provides this instruction without being able to see or give tactile correction, but before the pandemic she was teaching in person here in New York, and was also again, not giving tactile corrections, and I don't exist, I don't exist as a sighted person to assist with that process at all, and what students learn very quickly over time, is that it's not needed. Most students don't dance with their cameras on but sometimes when they are on, it's very clear to me as sometimes the only sighted person in the virtual room that the instruction is understood that the corrections are understood, and that being able to process visual information really has no bearing on what you're learning, and it's really true, especially for students who have never taken any kind of dance before, regardless of your age, if you've never done this before, Krishna really means that when she says that no prior knowledge is required, our students, again, our adult students, but they've run the gamut from like 18 to 75, throughout the blind community across the United States, and across several countries and time zones. So it really is for everyone. We have folks who have taken the introductory classes more than once, and they are free classes, and there's a very specific reason why that is that I think I will let Krishna address.
Krishna
Yeah, I make sure that my classes are always tuition free. That is a really, really important part of my educational philosophy. I recognize in the development of my curriculum, especially my introductory level curriculum, that a lot of blind and visually impaired people have experienced what I call education, denial, meaning that somebody else decided for you that you either did not need to learn something that you could not learn something, or that it would be not worth the time to teach you something. Even if it was something incredibly important, like the nature of your own human body. I do not believe in denying education, to anybody. That's why my class is and always be tuition free. I think that that is the idea that people have to pay money for the educational failings that we as a global culture have, as it relates to the education of disabled people. I think that that's one of like the worst moral wrongs that could possibly exist.
Alejandra
I wanted to point out as well, that our registration deadline for our introductory classes, the classes start on June 25. The deadline is on June 18. Krishna is also giving an audio description workshop on June 18. So the podcast, we'll make it out under that wire. It won't make it out under the wire for our June 11. What we call butt class workshop…
Krishna
Oh, can I talk about all this please?
Alejandra
Yes, please do.
Krishna
Part of the other kinds of classes that 'Dark Room Ballet' offers is a series called no diagram anatomy, and no diagram anatomy is a movement based anatomy education series, I have taught quite a few note diagram anatomy classes. Since I, I started I think that we're on class number like eight or nine now, I have had classes that were based on like very general concepts like how does the motor neuron innervate muscle tissue? How can you sense that? How does that knowledge influenced the way that you move and dance, but I'm in a series now that I like to call nitty gritty, and it is a very intense in depth and specific analysis of very what I consider important and mysterious body parts, and that includes your butt because nobody talks about butts, and I would say that if you actually understand how to sense what's going on in terms of the nerves, muscle bone fascia, in the gluteal complex, pretty much all movement becomes much much easier, especially if you are like a lot of the folks listening here today and like myself balancing without sight, you have to get to know your body. So over the course of 2022 and into 2023, I'm going to be offering classes about specific body regions in no diagram anatomy. Another kind of class that I teach with relative frequency, our classes relating to self audio description, and the different kinds of self audio description. I use two types of self audio description in general, the kind that people are most familiar hearing from me is what I call pedagogical self audio description. I talk about how I am moving to help a student learn how to also move in that way, but these workshops actually explore much more what I would call artistic self audio description, or by another little name that I like to give it. Blind movement art. When we, as blind artists, can create movement art experiences for one another. We are our own creators and our own audience. It's a very different approach to movement, audio description. I'm very, very passionate about it, and I have other arts projects related to advancements in audio description for dance, which I might talk about as well today.
Lizzy 16:08 – How to sign up and prices for other courses
Wow, I have so many questions just based on what you just said, and not even including the my original questions, but I'll just start with a few just really simple ones. So are your other courses, no diagram anatomy, you know, audio description, etc? Are they also tuition free? And can people sign up in the same way that they would sign up for your your intro and open ballet classes?
Alejandra
I want to do this one. I want to do this one
Krishna
Go ahead baby, go ahead
Alejandra
I'm going to be administrative. So in general, yes, we strive to keep all of our courses tuition free, particularly for blind and visually impaired students. Although sighted students are welcome, particularly in the workshops, the intro classes we very specifically keep for blind and visually impaired students only, but Krishna feels it's important to include sighted people, especially those who are sighted teachers of dance and movement in the workshops, but those workshops are also no previous experience required, and yes, to register or to learn about any of Krishna's' workshops or regular classes, you just have to go to darkroomballet.com, and I've hopefully laid things out there in a way that is screen reader friendly. I welcome feedback on that, but yes, all you have to do is go to darkroomballet.com. To find out more and to learn how to register for workshops or weekly classes, which are the intro level class starting June 25, and there is actually an ongoing open level class for folks who have some experience or who have finished at least one cycle of Krishna's introductory level class
Krishna
Monday nights, forever and never.
Alejandra
The classes are free, but it does obviously cost Krishna time and effort put into this curriculum. We are sponsored by a local organization called ‘Movement Research’, and they provide a lot of support, but folks who are interested and able to make a donation are also welcome to do that, on darkroomballet.com, in particular to support one of the other projects that Krishna is interested in mentioning, which is a film project based on dance and audio description.
Lizzy
Excellent. Thank you so much for that information. It's definitely worth checking out 'Dark Room Ballet''s website and yes, Alejandra, from what I have seen, it is quite a screen reader friendly. I just want to jump into a little bit of a history of Dark Room, and Krishna, you told me that this was something that was started around the pandemic is that right?
Krishna
The way that I currently teach yes.
Lizzy 19:02 The teaching style differences pre-pandemic and now
And then could you just tell us a little bit about how it began this way that you know, you're currently teaching and I mean, I know everyone had to pivot to zoom, but you know, sort of maybe some of the some of the differences that you've noticed, pre-pandemic versus now, just anything that you'd like to say about teaching in this style.
Krishna
I actually really love teaching on Zoom. I just want to make that really clear. I love having students from far and wide coming and study with me because I do know that there aren't really people teaching courses like mine locally. Mine is a very different kind of class for, you know, very specific reasons. I started working on the curriculum for 'Dark Room Ballet', I would say probably around 2012-2013, and like I said, like I had incredible really strong pushback from institutions and organizations, even institutions and organizations that were blind and visually impaired, oriented, like, that did not have interest in what I was doing. I was definitely thought of, as I don't know, not to be taken seriously, I guess I'll say in the most charitable way. I have taught like, you know, a couple classes here, a couple classes there. The biggest change that I found, at the start of the pandemic, was without question, a change in the zeitgeist in the way we think about the value of disabled people. I think there was a very particular window of time at I would say, like, the darkest moments of the American pandemic, here, like, you know, in New York City, especially, where a lot of people were forced to think about disabled people for the first time, and I honestly think that I noticed a change in the way that people would interact with me and people would speak to me, and the way that they would think about what it was that I was trying to do. Most people had a very difficult idea comprehending that it to pre professional course, I don't teach recreational course, like this is not dance therapy, dance therapy is incredibly important. Like I take dance therapy. That's not what I do. This is not recreation. This is not cute. This is real learning that happens in the dark room, and I really believe that people started to think about me and the work that I do, and my mission and my purpose differently. I started out working on an NEA grant from a previous employer, previous dance company where I was principal for a number of years, that gave me a little bit of money to get started and like, buy this very beautiful microphone that I'm using today. I applied for a Sonos grant, which I did win, and I installed a professional six foot by six foot dance floor in my kitchen, and I built a little plinth out of a clothes hamper, and some books for my laptop so that I could broadcast correctly. My husband, Jonathan, and I did tests to figure out you know, what was the way to get around zooms limitations in terms of audio, that we could manage to have the best possible quality audio, because in my class, one of the most important characteristics is that my voice and the music are happening simultaneously, and we discovered that by using a bi directional microphone and having a single source audio from our kitchen, using like a guitar amp speaker and like his computer is playing the music, my computer is capturing through the microphone, my voice on one side of the mic and the music on the other side, if we would take like a half an hour before class and level the volume. For every single song we were about to use, in advance of class like that this was something that was going to work, this was going to be something actually that sounded really good. We actually have a couple students who like to come and join the Zoom early and give us some help. Shout out to Andre, to make sure that everything is sounding good in terms of leveling. Jonathan is adjusting the volume throughout the song all through class, to make sure that my voice and the music are always in perfect balance. So you have no distractions on it has been just the greatest joy for me to teach remotely. I hear for I've had I don't even know how many people I've taught at this point like this. Definitely over 100.
Alejandra
Yeah, we're in the hundreds now.
Krishna
Yeah, we're in the hundreds of people I've taught, and they come from everywhere. Right now I have a whole bunch of Canadian people in my classes. So wonderful.
Alejandra
Yeah, we've got a Toronto crew. We've had folks, folks in Turkey and India and dear friend in Italy. What I want to point out is that this is an enormous amount of work that Krishna puts into classes as a professional, blind dancer and teacher and as she mentioned, it's a pre professional program. That doesn't mean that she's expecting people to become professional dancers. It just means that well..
Krishna
I really wanted to, to design a course, that would have been what I wanted to study. As I returned to dance after vision loss, that's when, yes, that's what I really wanted to do. So whether somebody comes to me with aspirations of becoming a performer, or a dance educator, or they really just want to learn dance in a serious way, all of those things are valid, and I treat every single student equally. Everybody deserves my time, everybody deserves my respect. I think that being treated that way by a teacher is a rare thing, and I think that it's, that's unfortunate that it is rare thing.
Alejandra
And I will say that it might sound intimidating for some folks, but again, we put a lot of effort into resources. Everyone who comes to intro class, for example, for eight weeks, will get a video of the class that they participated in one to three days after the class so that they can review it before the next class. We are very slowly working on an audio only ballet dictionary that is recorded by one of our students, Kristen, and it's meant to be I think, the first really student oriented ballet dictionary that will also be more friendly for blind and visually impaired students.
Krishna
Oh, can I add to that? I wrote all these definitions myself.
Alejandra
Yes, you did
Krishna
Mostly because I was doing research using the dance dictionaries that already exist on the internet, and I knew that those definitions were not meant for students, they were meant for choreographers and teachers, who already really knew what those words mean, they are not helpful for beginner students who are learning dance for the first time at all. So I acknowledged that I was going to need to write these definitions myself. So I think it's particularly interesting that perhaps the first student oriented dance dictionary on the internet is going to come through a disability arts project. I think that that's such a, you know what, it's just meant to be that way.
Lizzy
I agree, and sometimes I think that a student's experience can really add to another student's learning experience. It sounds like Krishna, you've had maybe some less than positive dance experiences in the past, and so from from what I'm picking up is that you kind of said, you know, I'm not going to be the type of person who yells that, you know, maybe not just because I'm blind, but also just because, you know, that's I'm not that kind of person. You know, what I mean? Is that, is that right?
Krishna
There are? See, I don't I think about ballet as a tool, more than anything else. It's an artistic tool. It's like the alphabet. It's like clay. It is a system of movement, that prioritizes balance over any other movement characteristic. That's what ballet is, and I really feel like, if you think about it that way. Anyway, anybody can use it. It's public domain, it's hundreds of years old. Anyone can use it in any way that they want, and yet, there are all of these stereotypes about what ballet is and is supposed to be and what ballet culture is and what it's supposed to be, and I really stand opposed to a lot of that. I've spoken to people, both disabled and non disabled people who have had very negative educational experiences in movement, and what that really does, it really damages people's confidence and their sense of self worth, and there's really no reason to do that. It doesn't actually help a person learn to feel bad about themselves. I think that a lot of that sort of aggressive style of, belittling people and diminishing people is what teachers have had to resort to, because they don't have an educational background to draw from, to actually help students learn, they would rather, you know, then preserve their own personal ego by, you know, saying something that makes that student feel small and insignificant. Then by trying to learn well, how do people actually learn? How could I actually help this student? There, there's also just a culture of, you know, choreographer, dancer relationships, in ballet and all other forms of dance, which I find highly problematic. Dancers are oftentimes thought of as instruments, or disposable, and that they just exist in order to actualize the concept in the mind, the choreographer, and agency is not given to the dancer voice is not given to the dancer, and there's this system in place where, you know, dancers are not allowed to complain, because they can be replaced so quickly, and they're supposed to feel grateful for being treated very badly. I stand very opposed to all of those things. It's also one of the reasons why I don't ask my students to give me anything in return, like I don't have, like any performance component. I don't have any exams. I just exist to help people learn continuously over time.
Lizzy 31:48 – The difference between sighted, blind, and balanced
I love that learning for learning sake. You know, I'm a huge fan of that. Now, I do want to ask you, you mentioned about ballet and balance, you also mentioned about your butt class, and so you mentioned a bit about the sort of differences between sighted and blind and balanced. Could you tell us more about that?
Krishna
Sure. Oh, this is my favorite topic. Okay. When a person can see, their primary organ of balance is their eyes. When a person cannot see, they need to balance differently. In a lot of ballet training, there is encouragement for dancers to actually place their torso weight over the front half of the foot. biomechanically, that's actually quite bad for you, as well as quite bad for your feet and knees, and you really need to be able to stare in order for that balancing to work out. When you balance internally, the balancing point is at the very back of the heel. In fact, it's where your Achilles tendon, which is that hard plasticky feeling, piece of connective tissue that runs off the back of your heel into your calf muscle, where that meets with the tissue of your heel on the floor, and when you get used to feeling that it almost feels like it's a little coin sized circle that you can ground into the floor, and I every class begins with the posture check, do I feel my torso being held up by my heels on is the front of my feet calm? Do I feel my Achilles tendons reaching down are my inner thigh muscles active and awake and reaching toward one another? Is the front of my pelvis tall are my rotators at the back of the pelvis on and reaching in towards the midline of the body. That's where butt class comes in. Also getting used to sensing whether there is enough core muscle activated to really stabilize the lower back system where there's only muscular stability there's really not skeletal stability there. To sense whether the upper arm bone is being held neutral in the shoulder socket. To sense am I putting tension into my jaw my face when that energy should be placed elsewhere? That concept of can I even sense the crown of my head reaching upward as the backs of my heels reached down? That's where our posture comes from. In 'Dark Room Ballet', we have tool is called The tape floor, it replaces the mirror as the tool we use to keep track of direction, and we train our feet to sense and trace that tape stripe on the floor. So we can change directions and get a sense of ourselves in space, our whole soul of the foot really becomes highly sensitized, you know, like, really knowing like, I have grounded this heel, it's really holding my torso up. That means I can switch on to my other leg, or I can lift that, like I can kick that leg. My torso is stable enough that my leg can be kicked and my torso will not destabilize and cause me to lose balance. All of these things are so teachable, and so practicable, and so learnable the idea that blind and visually impaired people cannot master balance is incredibly untrue and such a bad stereotype.
Lizzy 36:15 – Do students need to purchase ballet shoes before class
I 100% agree. Um, you did mention tape on the floor, and I've heard about that technique, but then you also mentioned the soul of your foot becoming very sensitive to that. Do students need to purchase ballet shoes before taking intro or--
Krishna
I don't require that, but you cannot take class barefoot, you will stick to the floor. I usually just say like, if you are not up for buying technique shoes yet, just wear regular socks. Ballet includes a lot of friction creating movements on the floor. If you're barefoot, you're going to come up against discomfort and possibly injury of your ankle or knee. So you want to be able to slide around your foots gonna be sliding around a lot.
Lizzy 37:05 – What tape is used
I see, and about the tape was was students isn't Is there a special type of students need to purchase before the class or?
Krishna
Well, this is this is a truth. Everybody will over the course of time, figure out what their own favorite tape is. I know what my favorite tape is, but it took me a long time to really test things out and figure out what I like I like a very narrow tape. I like a one inch wide. Gaffer tape is by specifically Blick brand of fluorescent orange gaffer tape. Some students prefer a wider tape, they like an inch and a half, or they like a two inch. Some students prefer a very highly textured tape or they'll like a painters tape or a masking tape. Or, you know, even like a duct tape. It really depends on the person. It will probably take trial and error for each person to really figure out what tape they liked best. I tell them what I like, but I also let them know like, that's not the be all end all. Every dancer needs are unique. Our skeletal proportions are different. Our lived experiences are different and what feels best to you. That's something you will discover over time.
Alejandra
I know that you like the orange tape because you're able to perceive it a little bit.
Krishna
Yeah, I have like, if I if I stick it in there, I get it, and I also I do have some students who are low vision or partials, and I've heard that the orange shows up on camera quite well.
Alejandra
it does it does on and I know that again, the tape is meant to be a replacement for the visual feedback of a mirror. The tape is giving you feedback in your feet, your toes, etc. So that's why it is really dependent on the individual, and plenty of folks start class without tape.
Krishna
And then I keep talking about it and they're like, Oh, I gotta get some don't I
Alejandra
And you know, they use what they have masking tape duct tape, as long as there's something to provide that tactile feedback on the floor that a mirror would provide visually to a sighted person.
Krishna
I would actually argue that our learning tool is superior to the mirror , because when I have done performances, I could just put my tape down on the performance space floor. My sighted friends cannot hang up a mirror behind the audience. I love that.
Alejandra
I can vouch for that. I've seen it happen.
Lizzy 39:49 – Krisna dancing while teaching
Now, I think it was Alejandra who mentioned the orange tape being useful for students who have some vision. Krishna, are you also dancing while while you're teaching
Krishna
Yes, I do I dance and talk the whole time and move and I don't shut up the whole time.
Lizzy
And we're gonna play a clip for you in a second here that shows Krishna speaking very quickly. So I believe was that a was it a Russian folk song? Or was it a Greek folk song
Krishna
You came to our class seven of intro class that was a Greek folk song that is called ‘This Yura Taki’ (this is phonetic to the best of my ability) and I just before you play it, I just want to give some context here. This is from intro, but it's from one of the last classes of intro when we're actually doing quite challenging material. Also, I do not improvise what I'm saying. I rehearse many hours before every class in order to make sure that my voice and the music are lined up, and I'm saying what I really want to say to help the students do their best. So you're hearing something that has been rehearsed for many, many, many hours. This is not something that I do just magically.
Lizzy
Yes, and she's, she's dancing, she's talking and at one point, you're speaking very quickly. So let's just let the audience hear that just for a second
Krishna (On recording)
First, we straighten our legs our arms float down the low fifth pinky fingers, land on the legs, and then like wings, they gently float up out of low fish out to the side second, and then we do a get the legs first arms first, fully the second arabesque, right hand for right leg back side, the legs first, arms first, full and a second are best left by turning back left hand side, create legs, first arms for straighten the legs, arms down to motion and the flow down to the sides second, and then we do it again.
Lizzy 41:59 – Who taught Krishna
Well, it's just fascinating to watch your work as an instructor, and it really begs the question of Who taught you to dance as a blind person, because as you mentioned earlier, too often, we are dismissed as students when it comes to classes in movement. I know I wanted to take a ballet class at Barnard, and the instructors response was, Well, who's going to teach her? You know?
Krishna
Yes
Lizzy
So when I saw this class, of course, I was very excited, and of course, really excited to do this interview. So where what is the it seems like maybe you've had some very positive instructors or and you've been able to sort of come up with everything
Krishna
I've had good I've had bad I've had in between. I studied dance prior to vision loss, I started when I was three, I received a scholarship through Royal Academy of Dance, because I was the kind of three year old who had long attention span, and they figured this one's worth investing time into. My first dance teacher was a really excellently trained teacher, and she had trained specifically to teach very young children like that was what she wanted to do. A lot of dance teachers are teaching class because they're frustrated choreographers. That was not the case for my first teacher, and if you had asked me when I was three, what do you want to be when you grow up? I'd say a ballet teacher. So like, the fact that I have the job I wanted when I was three, still brings me a lot of joy. I have also had, you know, it's a mixed bag. Teachers who really understood how people learn and also teachers who are just there, because it passed if they have to fulfill some kind of grant requirement, or like, this is how they can make enough money to make rent or what have you. Post vision loss, much like your experience, Lizzy. I had a lot of teachers say no, I asked I would ask I'm like, Look, I have a background. I know my vocabulary. I'm having a hard time moving right now, but can I come study here and like I got a lot of No. I don't feel comfortable with you in the room. I wouldn't know what to do. A lot of people just thinking about me would make them feel stressed. I would kind of coerce certain teachers into like, like please let me go and take your class and like I was an adult and I'm paying like you know $18 for a class like everybody else like one class at a time open level classes in New York City, you know, just like anyone else would. Sometimes, you know, once I developed a certain level of competency I would you show up, fold up my white cane and just go hang on a bar and just cross my fingers and hope no one noticed, and inevitably, very few people ever did. Like, I wouldn't make an effort to like hide the white cane as I came in, because I kind of couldn't, but then like, I would just fold it and I would like, tuck it with my bag or something and then just go out, go stand the bar, like, just behave myself listen and dance, and no one really say thing, it was better sometimes, I performed a lot prior to the pandemic, and you know, when you perform, and you rehearse all the time, you have to take class beforehand, otherwise, you're going to injure yourself. So sometimes my schedule just required me to sneak in. I would say though, in terms of studying blind, specific technique that mostly came from my mentor, Mana Hashimoto, who was a blind professional dancer is blind professional dancer, who taught me about tape floor technique, and who really introduced me to the world of being able to sense my nervous system in a very specific way, and to develop a real relationship with my nervous system, as something that is me, like my nervous system is me. It's the part of me that thinks and experiences life in a way, it's the part that's the most me, and yet, it's also something else, some other entity that I need to tame and earn the trust of every day, I sometimes liken it to a wild bird that you have to tame every day. It's true that like the moment, fear, stress, anxiety enters in that dialogue with the nervous system is just interrupted, and it just, you cannot learn anymore. In that moment, you really need that calm, focus, and that relationship, that conscious relationship with your nervous system, that's really what Mana helped me to do. That's what I aim to do, for every one of my students to pay back what I was given so generously.
Lizzy 47:39 – Misconceptions for teachers to break
And I think you did that very well, and actually explains a lot about, you know, just even the tempo that you speak, you know, that I was calling energy. You know what I mean? I remember the first time we spoke, I was visiting my parents, and my mom said, Oh, who were you just on the phone with, and I was so excited, and I said, this, this woman, she has a great energy, and I was like, I'm just gonna love doing this interview, but now that you give, give the background to it, it makes a lot of sense. So I would just say that you are doing a very good job and your students are totally picking that up. Now, anytime, anytime. Now, as far as the teachers, you mentioned, the ones who get stressed the ones who think it's harder to teach a blind student? Are there any misconceptions that you might be able to break? For those teachers?
Krishna
Oh, please, let me do that. Okay. Thing number one. Don't touch people without their permission. There is a lot of ballet teachers think it's totally okay to just like walk up to a person, including a blind person who might not know that they're there and just like grab their butt and like adjust their body. Why do they think that's okay? It's not ever okay, but also, a lot of people don't want touch corrections anyway. Especially blind people don't want to touch corrections. Some blind folks have a lot of like touch related traumas. Like no, I have had enough of this. I've had enough of people grabbing my arm and touching my back and thinking that I need to be touched all the time. When that's not even the way a person learns independent movement. That doesn't do it. It's not even thing. So if you're a blind person in class, please don't treat them like a puppet and like move their body around. Oh god, that's number one. I know that that's very like kindergarten level. I considered kindergarten level, but apparently to a lot of ballet teachers. It's not. Um, here's some other things To consider blind and visually impaired people, we have very unique relationships with our head, and a lot of the cueing that is head related for sighted students does not really apply to us. Our relationship with our head is very individual, it's really about being allowed to explore our balance, it's very easy to know whether you feel on your balance or feel off your balance, that's something that you know about yourself, you can sense that yourself, if you know, okay, if I bring my head a little bit like this, it feels better. Or if I bring my head a little bit like that, it feels worse. That is the exploration that I encourage students to do, like befriend your head, it's not your enemy. To think that your blind student has to move and hold their head in the same way that the sight sighted people do, that will actually impede their learning will get in the way that will prevent them from being able to progress. Because instead of dancing, like the blind person that they are, they're being forced into the mold of the sighted person. The same thing also, with hands, I would say that my hands in particular, are a lot more energized and electrified, than a sighted person's hands would be when I am moving, and they're, I would say, a little bit more dramatic, but that's also the thing that helps me to keep track of where my hands are in space, that relationship with the nerves and the index in the middle finger. really letting that be present and vibrant. That's what keeps me feeling confident about what I'm doing. So no, like your blind student isn't going to look the same as your sighted student, but there is an aesthetic to the way that we dance that I don't think is any less beautiful, if anything, it's more beautiful because it is so authentic to our experience, like we have to be engaged and how we feel as we're in motion. It's not imitation, it's not copying. It's not Oh, I'm doing this because I was told to, it's, I know, I feel my balance. I know the shape I'm in, I'm doing this, and I know what I'm doing, and to me, I think that's much more exciting.
Lizzy
It sounds to me, like, a huge part of your philosophy that you've just explained, is accepting yourself not trying to be something that you're not and that, you know, sort of reminds me of, you know, if someone you know, is racially different from everyone else on the stage, you know, they wouldn't want to hide that they wouldn't want to, you know, try to conform to being, you know, quote, unquote, just like everyone else, but in this case, being just like everyone else, is not saying to be treated as less than it's seeing. Embrace your individuality, embrace your unit, your uniqueness, and be confident and be happy with with the style that is unique for you.
Krishna
And that's really like, the best dancers in the world. Really all have that approach. They all know their own bodies and their own movement. It's such an intimate way, and the fact that dance education on the whole does not reflect that reality is just absurd to me. It's absurd. Like, we all know that the great dancer, dancers of the world that like capture audience's attention, I'm like, people remember witnessing this incredible artist a decade later, two decades later. It comes from their experience, and joy of like having a human body and being in it in the moment. It doesn't come from Oh, I'm doing this because I'm supposed to. It's always something so much more emotional than that.
Lizzy 54:40 – Advice for anyone advocating for equality in the dance space
I agree. Now my final question, and then we'll just get your contact information and then wrap up is what advice do you have for anyone who is advocating for equality in the dance space? Can be specific to ballet. or it could be just, you know, the broader dance area, I know how you've how you've, you know, sort of snuck into the classes where, you know, in preparation for your dance companies, but for example, if you're auditioning for a dance company, you know, do you do you sort of you know use the same sort of like, you know, sneak in approach? Or have you had those frank conversations? Or?
Krishna
Well, I mean, here is the fact of the matter. I've done many auditions, I've never gotten a job through an audition. I've only ever gotten a job through developing, like, hard won relationships with other artists. I can recall going on an audition, not too many years ago, for a dance company whose work I really admired, and, you know, I came in like, what was I supposed to do? I'm obviously a blind lady coming in, and, but the choreography is like, okay, all right. So I'm going to ask you to do some stuff, and I'll talk to you about it as you're doing it, and, you know, I'm following the instructions doing it and, and I'm listening to her and she says, Oh, you know, I like the way that you dance, and I keep going, and she said, you know, the way that you dance is actually really similar to the other dancers in my company, and then we continue on, she continues to direct me and she says, You know, I could actually really imagine you in the piece that I'm planning right now, but I don't want the company to go in that direction, and we know what that means, right? If you want to, and I know that there are people who do when we are artists, we're born artists, we're born to be that person. You can't change, you can't throw it away. You can't force yourself to be somebody else. If you are an artist, that's what you are. If you know that this is the life you need to live. Understand that ableism is incredibly pervasive, and it's everywhere, and you're going to experience it again and again, and it's wrong. Every time you experience it, it's wrong. Even though it's common, that doesn't make it okay. Make sure that you take the time to cultivate a network of other disabled artists that you can talk to, and grow close to support their work, learn to support each other, because those are the friends that you're going to meet the most. I'm only here today with the class that I have currently, because I have that friend and Alejandra. I would not have a website, she built that for me without when I had no money. I had no income coming in, at the start of the pandemic had nothing, and she said, I'll make a website for you. Because you need to be able to teach this class. It's important.
Alejandra
I also dragged you onto social media.
Krishna
Yeah, like, Oh, God, please not Facebook. No, but um, but this is how you're going to make it. Like, yeah, there will be moments when you're going to be in collaboration with non disabled artists, sometimes they will have, you know, a competency and understanding you. A lot of times they won't. A lot of times they're going to want you to be involved in their project. Because they have ablest ideas, think about that. Think about what you can emotionally handle.
Alejandra
I have a slightly different perspective as someone who is a wheelchair user. What I want to say is that Krishna, you're absolutely correct and ableism is everywhere. On the plus side, there is only one Krishna doing what Krishna does, but the culture of disability arts has been shifting over, I would say the past five years so that there is more cultural awareness and space for disability arts. There are more disability oriented projects and companies and funding. So if this is all new to you, but still something that you think you feel like you need to pursue. If you are blind or visually impaired and interested in ballet or dance in general, there are folks like Krishna, there are folks that Krishna is reaching out to and teaching, and there are other spaces and organizations that are starting to turn the tide and to understand what disability arts and culture are, and that these things can happen at a higher level, and that work should be audio described, and that we matter as both consumers of entertainment and arts and as performers or as students since people who are just learning. So there is hope.
Krishna
I am currently at the editing phase on for a film project called 'Telephone' is a screen dance and audio description arts project that Heather Shaw, a choreographer out in California and I have been working on for the last two years, is really a showcase of dancers and audio describers, who I believe, are committed to creating really excellent high quality audio described dance, for blind and visually impaired audiences. It's really about creating art with blind and visually impaired audiences at the center, and there's also a little bit of me talking about like my artistic philosophies as they apply to audio description for dance and movement. It's not the same as audio description for other kinds of media, I feel like it needs to be a very different kind of approach. So I talk a lot about that. We are working towards a premiere in December of 2022. We're really excited. This is like a disabled lead and disabled honoring project. There's so many incredible artists involved including Alejandra including the great blind dancer, DJ Robinson, down in Durham, North Carolina. There are so many incredibly talented people working on this, and we're currently fundraising in order to pay all of our collaborators including our ASL interpreter, our deaf performers, our composer, our film editor, our sound engineer. So if you are interested in learning more about that, you can always go to telephonefilm.com, and also we have a Ko-fi page that is K O dash F I. A Ko-fi page for donations for the 'Telephone' film.
Lizzy
And before we get the contact information for dark room, I was going to ask quickly, Alejandra are you I was going to ask you if you were an artist, but Krishna just said it would you like to share a little bit about your art
Alejandra
Um, so I would consider myself to currently be in arts administrator mode, but I have spent a long time sort of doing a pick and mix. As a young person I studied vocal music I have performed on stage in children's theater, I have returned to theatre training as an adult. I work as an audio describer, which I fully believe is an art form in and of itself.
Krishna
I do also
Alejandra
So I actually do a little bit of everything. Krishna and I were recently involved as remote performers in a multi sensory performance called 'In Place of Catastrophe at Clear Night Sky' which was a New York based project with friends and colleagues of ours, which was also meant to dissenter sight. So I do a little bit of everything, but I believe that my primary artistic work right now is supporting the work of 'Dark Room Ballet'. Krishna mentioned DJ Robinson as part of 'Telephone' film, and Krishna has also been in collaboration with a company that DJ is a part of. So we're all just trying to promote each other and keep the art moving forward and help make a difference in art that is impactful for blind visually impaired and disabled people at at high quality levels. So a shout out, shout out to Shelly Danceworks as well who would have premiered their work by the time this airs but it's also worth checking out.
Krishna
I could not have said everything that Alejandra just said better myself.
Lizzy 1:04:51 – Contact information
Excellent. Well, who wants to give our listeners all of the contact information and ways that they can keep up with you on social media? Just wherever you guys are located on the internet.
Alejandra
I'll do it because Krishna Krishna doesn't like to do it. So as we mentioned before the main website for 'Dark Room Ballet' with Krishna Washburn is 'Dark Room Ballet'.com All three words 'Dark Room Ballet'.com (darkroomballet.com). To simplify things, we actually link to everywhere that Krishna is on there, but Krishna is on Facebook as 'Dark Room Ballet' with Krishna Washburn, and on Twitter and Instagram, as at 'Dark Room Ballet'. I haven't convinced her to set up a Tiktok yet, but I'm working on it, and Krishna made a very, not so happy face about that, but again, 'Dark Room Ballet'.com is our main point of contact. We love to get email, our main email address is info at 'Dark Room Ballet'.com (info@darkroomballet.com), and that's actually how we process all of our new students and do our intake. We're very email friendly in that way.
Krishna
Oh, we should also mention our 'Dark Room Ballet' business, voicemail line.
Alejandra
That's absolutely correct, and now I'm going to test you do you remember our phone number?
Krishna
Oh gosh
Alejandra
That’s okay
Krishna
I know that it’s 9
Alejandra
You can also reach 'Dark Room Ballet' by phone, it's a recorded voicemail line, I will receive those calls, and usually Krishna will return those calls, and that number, it's a US number. It's 929-367-0025, and so you can leave us a voicemail there and we will get back to you as soon as we can.
Lizzy
Excellent, so it sounds like if students want to get involved, they should send an email or call the voice line for signing up for classes.
Alejandra
Those are the best ways to go and everything should be there on 'Dark Room Ballet'.com. I'm going to do a few more edits today, but as of right now, all our information is current as far as upcoming workshops and the upcoming intro to ballet cycle, which begins on June 25, with registration closing on June 18.
Lizzy
Excellent, and before we close that, I just want to say Krishna, TikTok needs 'Dark Room Ballet'. So thank you both for joining us today. It's been so much fun, and you've dropped so much knowledge on everyone who is fortunate enough to tune in to today's episode, and honestly, that's what's 'Scene Change' all about. Thank you both again, and thank you, Shane, for editing the episode as always, and thank you to our listeners for tuning in. This has been another episode of 'Scene Change'
Outro 1:07:54
I'm Katelyn MacIntyre, president of the National Federation of the Blind Performing Arts division. Thank you so much for listening to this episode of "Scene Change". If you like what you heard, be sure to subscribe wherever you get your podcasts and visit our website at NFB dash pad DOT org (nfb-pad.org). There you'll find links to our social media, membership, and resources for blind performers. Thanks to everyone who makes this show happen. "Scene Change" is produced by Shane Lowe, Joe Scheunemann, Precious Perez, Chris Nusbaum, Seyun Choi, and Erin Jordan with music by Ryan Strunk and Tom Page. Remember, you can be the performer you want. Blindness is not what holds you back. We'll see you next time.