News

• Jim and I are doing our first-ever Disney Dish cruise in 2022.  We’re calling it “The Disney Dish on the Disney Wish”  

• Dates are September 23-26, 2022.  That’s a Friday, Saturday, Sunday, Monday out of Port Canaveral
• We made it 3 nights so it’s as affordable as possible.
• We’ll have tons of chances to meet up while on board, we’re planning some exciting events so we can all get to know the ship, and we’ll record a special, live show while on board.
• We have 1 cabin left, and then that’s all we think we can handle in terms of group size.
• Storybookdestinations.com/disneydish
  

• Jim and I are doing the second annual Gingerbread Challenge in Walt Disney World, starting Friday December 2, 2022.  
  
• Also, we’re looking at March 30-April 1, 2023 for our group cruise on the Starcruiser Halcyon. That’s a Thursday check-in and a Saturday check-out, which is also, somehow appropriately, April Fool’s Day.  
  

https://storybookdestinations.com/DisneyDish/

https://touringplans.com/starwars2023

• Finding Nemo - The Big Blue and Beyond opens today, June 13, at Animal Kingdom.  
• Minnie Van service returns to WDW June 29.
• “Summer House on the Lake” replaces the never-built Beatrix restaurant over in Disney Springs’ West Side
  
  Menu items include California-inspired dishes, salads, sandwiches pastas, pizza, vegetables, cocktails, mocktails, wine, and draft beer.

Surveys

From Justin:

From a TouringPlans member named ThorKat, a Universal Orlando survey asking about a potential new kind of “shopping pass”:

The survey begins with the standard “You agree to keep this confidential” clause.  And let me remind everyone that Universal knows that’s not a binding agreement.  In order for it to be, you’d have to get something of value in return, like money or park tickets.  

And

And

And

-and-

And a ton of folks who’ve done the Galactic Starcruiser recently have got a new survey from Disney, with the following questions (along with a chance to participate in a longer, follow-up survey).  Thanks to DisneyDayDreamin for sending in these screencaps:

And

And

Listener Questions

From JoeTV:

Thanks to Christina for the tip about the Tomahawk Steak at California Grill - it was delicious!  Also a few months back I wrote in about the twilight feast and during my trip this week 6/6 found that room service has not returned to the Poly. Keep up the great work.

From Joe from Lisle, Illinois:

My family and I are planning a Walt Disney World trip for May of 2023 and I was wondering if there has been any news regarding the Play Pavilion that's supposed to replace the old Wonders Of Life Pavilion in Epcot. This will be our first trip since my wife and I went there for our honeymoon in 2011 and Epcot is far and away my favorite park.

From Jeff:

I haven’t seen the Friendship boats running between Mexico and Germany at EPCOT for a long time.  Recently, I noticed that Friendship boat route had been removed from the park map, leaving only the launch from Canada to Morocco.  Do you know why the other boat route was discontinued?

From Tony:

In the past, did Living with the Land ever include a scene where actual liquid water fell from above to simulate rain? Note that I am not talking about the shimmering string show effect that currently exists in one of the early scenes, but actual, real water falling from above to simulate rain. I can distinctly remember this (sometime around 2008 perhaps) and it would also explain why the ride vehicles for Living with the Land have those canvas tops as well, but no one else seems to recall.

From Lori, here’s our Top Tech Tip of the Week:

Hi Len and Jim!  I'm a longtime touringplans subscriber and Disney Dish listener.  Any idea what is going on with the Disney website or IT in general?  I know it's always been terrible, but lately it seems exceptionally bad.  There have been many times I can't make reservations or modify them, which leads me to 30+ minutes on the phone.  What's strange is I can always modify reservations on my mom's account.  Also, just simple searches for restaurants gives me a 502 Bad Gateway error.

Len: Try these two things: (1) In your web browser, delete all cookies associated with Disney’s domains (and that includes go.com); and (2) if that doesn’t work, browse in ‘incognito’ mode.

Christina:

Fort Wilderness What Might Have Been

Feature Piece

We’re – what? – about 10 days out now from the return of the Hoop-Dee-Doo Musical Revue at Fort Wilderness Campground. June 23rd is when Pioneer Hall – which has been silent for 27 months – will come roaring back to life with three nightly presentations of this beloved musical dinner show (4 p.m., 6:15 p.m. & 8:30 p.m.)

I’m assuming that Chrissy will be making a special trip over to Fort Wilderness the first week that Hoop-Dee-Doo ends its hiatus just to make sure that everything is on the up-and-up at Pioneer Hall. And if she wants to overnight me a doggy bag full of those pecan-smoked BBQ pork ribs, I won’t complain.

We’ve talked previously on this show about Disney’s Fort Wilderness … How – just 9 months prior to the October 1971 opening of the WDW Resort – Dick Nunis (who had just been placed in charge of getting Disney World open on time) had just learned that little to no work had been done to date on the resort’s campground.

So Dick turned to Keith Kamback – a veteran Disneyland employee who had a degree in recreation – and effectively said “You’re coming to Florida with me. And you’re going to build a campground.”

When Keith pointed out that he had never built a campground before and began to ask questions like “What sort of budget am I working with?,” Dick growled “Don’t bother me with questions. Just go build that campground?”

Kambak gets on the ground in Orlando and then discovers why Nunis didn’t tell him what the budget was for Fort Wilderness. There is no budget. Disney World is so far over-budget at this point that there’s a real question – in the late Winter / early Spring of 1971 – whether the Resort will be able to find the funding necessary to complete construction of the Contemporary and/or the Polynesian Village Resorts. Let alone get started on building a new onsite campground.

But the PR material for Walt Disney World has been talking up camping at the Vacation Kingdom for over 5 years now. Saying things like …

Walt Disney World will offer a whole new vacation way of life. In addition to exploring the Magic Kingdom theme park, Guests will have the opportunity to frolic in Bay Lake & Seven Seas Lagoon. This 650-acre expanse of water, lined with four miles of white sand beaches, will ideal for swimming, sailing, fishing and water skiing.

Meanwhile over at Fort Wilderness, visitors will find 600 acres of campgrounds, boating, nature trails, park-like recreation areas and the Tri-Circle D Ranch, where saddle horses are available.

People have already booked trips to Disney World because they wanted to go camping at that Resort. Go swimming in Bay Lake. So Disney now has to figure out how to deliver on what it said in all those press release.

Luckily, Keith Kambak is clever, resourceful and slightly dishonest. He becomes famous for waiting ‘til the construction workers go home at 5 and then sending trucks into the Magic Kingdom worksite to steal lumber & bags of cement. Which is what Keith then uses to build Fort Wilderness’ original reception center and the first 200 campsites.

Mind you. Fort Wilderness isn’t ready for opening day. Hell, this campground really isn’t ready when it finally throws open its doors on November 19, 1971. Seven weeks after the first group of Guests pushed through the turnstiles over at the Magic Kingdom.

But even if Fort Wilderness isn’t really ready for prime time, campers absolutely love the place right out of the gate. It initially costs $11 a night to stay there.  And the people who stay there are really excited that – as part of that $11 fee – they get access to the entire WDW transportation system. The monorails, the launches, the motor coaches.

And given that demand for those 200 campsites far exceeds the available supply, Walt Disney World quicky begins to expand Fort Wilderness. In October of 1972 (just in time for the celebration of the Resort’s grand opening a year previous), it is announced that Disney World’s onsite campground will more than doubling in size. Adding an additional 300 sites.

By now, WDW managers have noticed an interesting phenomenon. Which is that Guests who are staying at the Contemporary & Polynesian Village will make a special trip over to Fort Wilderness over the course of their WDW vacation just to check the place out.

Mind you, there isn’t much to see at this point. A handful of campsites and a trading post. But the Imagineers make note of the steady stream of daily visitors that Fort Wilderness has been experiencing and then decides … Well, let’s give them something to see.

So a plan is formed. First and foremost, the Imagineers decide to build a transportation system that will take Guests from Fort Wilderness’ reception area to the south all the way up to the campground’s recreation area along Bay Lake. This 3-mile-long round-trip narrow gauge rail line (which will be serviced by four steam trains with 5 cars each. Which will be capable of carrying 90 passengers at a time) will carry Guests from their campsites to the reception area and then down to the waterfront.

That rail line gets installed over the Summer of 1973. It’s field-tested in the Fall of that same year and finally fully operational just in time for Christmas Week 1973 / 1st week of January 1974.

There’s another reason that the Imagineers built that rail line. That’s because they’re looking to develop the middle-most section of Fort Wilderness. This area – known as the Settlement – initially holds just the Tri-Circle D Ranch (which is where the horses that pull the trolleys on Main Street over at the Magic Kingdom spend their days off. Likewise Fort Wilderness’ petting zoo).

But because so many Guests staying at the Contemporary & the Polynesian Village are making a special trip over to Fort Wilderness as part of their WDW vacation just to see what there is to see over there … the Imagineers give them something to see.

The first thing up out of the ground is Pioneer Hall, which is constructed out of 1,283 hand-fitted pine logs from Montana and 70 tons of stones from North Carolina. This venue first opened its doors on April 1, 1974. And initially there is absolutely no mention of the “Hoop-Dee-Doo Musical Revue.”

Instead, Pioneer Hall is described as having “ … a 250-seat steak house where ranch-style barbeques will be offered, plus a 150-seat snack bar, theme shops and an arcade for after-hours recreation.”

Mind you, if you dig down in the original Pioneer Hall press release (which initially says that this complex will be up & running by February of 1974), there is mention that this “new service-oriented campground complex” would be fully equipped when it came to the presenting of musical stage shows.

But at this point (The Spring of 1974), there’s honestly no talk of the “Hoop-Dee-Doo.” There is – however – all sorts of talk of the other components of Fort Wilderness’ Settlement project. Which are supposed to begin construction shortly.

By next summer, Fort Wilderness’ steam train system will connect the campground’s reception area and its waterfront recreation facilities with the Fort Wilderness Stockade and Western Town. Where complete dining, shopping and entertainment facilities are being built in phases.

And a year or so after Western Town opened at Fort Wilderness opened, the Imagineers then wanted to build (this is from the Company’s 1973 annual report) …

… the Fort Wilderness “swimming hole,” a major recreational facility.

Wait. It gets better. WDW managers – at this point – were actually talking about building a fun house onsite at Fort Wilderness. One that would feature show scenes designed by Marc Davis and would be housed in an eccentric-looking mansion that would be called “The Roost.”

Once “The Roost” was opened (This project was projected to be completed by the Summer of 1977, with Fort Wilderness’ swimming hole – eventually called “River Country” – opening the previous year. Just in time for America’s bicentennial), WDW officials eventually envisioned selling visitors to their Florida vacation kingdom a special Fort Wilderness ticket book. Which would then give Guests a full day of fun at Fort Wilderness.

    • Take the bus over to Fort Wilderness’ reception area

    • Then take the train down to that campground’s settlement section

    • Swim in the morning at River Country

    • Spend the afternoon exploring the Roost, hiking Fort Wilderness’ nature trails, visiting the petting zoo and/or go horseback riding

    • Catch a performance of the “Hoop-Dee-Doo Musical Revue” at Pioneer Hall

    • Do some souvenir shopping in Frontier Town

    • Walk down to the waterfront at Bay Lake after dusk and then catch a presentation of the “Electrical Water Pageant”

    • Grab the train and head back up to Fort Wilderness’ reception area

    • Take a motor coach back to your hotel

This was the plan as of the Fall of 1973. Which then – of course – is when the Arab Oil Embargo got underway. And attendance levels at Walt Disney World suddenly fell off by 20% because of the odd / even gas rationing that was going on at that time. So many Guests were worried that – if they began driving down to Walt Disney World – that they then wouldn’t be able to find enough gasoline en route to complete their journey to the Resort.

The Arab Oil Embargo obviously had a huge impact on Fort Wilderness’ previously-stellar occupancy levels (Typically at 100% capacity from Christmas Week through Labor Day) because of the number of people who’d drive down to Disney World pulling a trailer. Occupancy levels dropped to 70% and managers there got scared.

The other components of the Fort Wilderness’ Settlement area – the Stockade and Western Town, to be specific – that were to follow Pioneer Hall got placed on hold. As did Marc Davis’ The Roost project.

As for “River Country” … I’m told that the only reason that project went forward is because the Company had already ordered the 2500 feet of flume that would eventually be used to build Whoop-n-Holler Hollow.

Fascinating to think what might have been around Pioneer Hall if the Arab Oil Embargo hadn’t tripped up WDW’s executives to turn Fort Wilderness into a day-long destination for Disney World visitors to experience over their Florida vacation.

One final stat from a Disney annual report from 1974 that just fascinated me:

“Pioneer Hall,” a major entertainment, restaurant and arcade facility, opened in March and soon established itself as a popular guest attraction and profitable operation. Twice as many guests come from the resort-hotels to attend the dinner show in Pioneer Hall than from the campgrounds themselves.

Do you know if that number still holds today, Len?

Just so you know: WDW didn’t entirely abandon its plans to turn Fort Wilderness into a day-long vacation destination.

River Country opened at Fort Wilderness on June 19, 1976. This five-acre water park quickly started drawing – on average -- 4,700 Guests per day during the Summer months of 1976. Interestingly enough, there is no drop in attendance levels over at the Magic Kingdom after the opening of River Country. Which means that this new water park is drawing an additional nearly 5000 people to the Resort every day. Which means that River Country immediately became a huge new profit center at WDW.

Downside … All of these additional people coming to Fort Wilderness every day needing to get down to the water park just as most people staying at WDW’s campsite want to get over to the Magic kingdom overwhelm the campground’s steam train line / eventually causing the system to fail.

Imagineers immediately begin looking for ways to expand Fort Wilderness. Company’s 1976 annual report mentions plans for “ … more water rides, an additional raft ride or a two-man boat ride.”

Likewise, to try and handle the crowds who are now pouring into Fort Wilderness each day, the Imagineers revisit the idea of building Frontiertown in the stretch of land that exists between Pioneer Hall and River Country.

But then the Company gets serious about going forward with construction of EPCOT Center. And all available funding for future expansion at the WDW Resort – including the funds that had been set aside for Fort Wilderness – gets funneled into WDW’s second gate.

BCX      

Flying Saucer BCX Feature

Part 3 of 3