Note: Dead Eyes transcripts have been generated with automated software and may contain errors. We advise you to listen to episode audio before quoting in print.
Dead Eyes, Episode 11 - “Piss Siblings”
Shannon O'Neill Connor, this is essentially a Serial podcast. Isn't it?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Shannon O'Neill Like this is, this is journalism.
Connor Ratliff Well, I'm trying to get a Peabody Award. [Laughs]
[Rapid jazz music starts]
Shannon O'Neill Ooo, but like P-E-E Body, right?
Connor Ratliff Yeah. Yeah. An offbrand Peabody Award with no "A."
Shannon O'Neill Yeah...little piss boy award, PEEbody.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Shannon O'Neill We're recording this right now?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Shannon O'Neill This is good. This is good stuff. [Laughs] What else can I help you with?
Connor Ratliff Oh, no, this, I think this will be really easy. Although, maybe not. Maybe...
Connor Ratliff I'm talking to my good friend Shannon O'Neill, who was one of my first improv teachers when I started taking classes back in 2009 at the Upright Citizens Brigade Theatre in New York City.
Connor Ratliff Do you remember when I first told you the Tom Hanks story, Shannon? Or when you first heard it?
Shannon O'Neill Do—I remember the first time you told me, the second time you told me, the third time you—I heard it, the fourth time you told someone...
Connor Ratliff By 2011, Shannon and I were teammates and colleagues, performing together on stage at the UCB Theatre and on The Chris Gethard Show on public access and later cable television.
Shannon O'Neill The fifth time I walked in on you telling somebody that you already told. The sixth time, you told...
Connor Ratliff You might recognize her as Marla Bevers on Broad City. You might've seen her in a recurring role on HBO's High Maintenance, or as the notorious Sonja Farak on the Netflix true crime mini-series How to Fix a Drug Scandal.
Shannon O'Neill ...the seventh time...I said it to somebody else. And then they're like, "Oh, I want to hear you tell me, Connor."
Connor Ratliff Shannon has had my back onstage and in real life more times than I can count.
Shannon O'Neill ...and then the eighth time, when, uh, a piece of toast that looked like Tom Hanks was in the UCB green room and you told it [laughs]. I don't remember the first time you told me, but I remember you telling me—[laughs] I've heard the story so many times, I feel like I might be Tom Hanks.
Connor Ratliff Shannon was also one of the reasons that my Tom Hanks Band of Brothers story started to spread beyond the small circle of people I knew personally.
Shannon O'Neill Oh, no, I outed you? That's rude.
Connor Ratliff I think I had told it on a podcast. But some—You know, podcasts sometimes feel more private than they are. I mean, anyone can listen to them, but I also feel like you can say a secret and if you say it on the right podcast, no one will hear it. You know?
Shannon O'Neill [Laughs] Correct.
Connor Ratliff You were the first person to make the story public, I think, in a, in a way that felt—[laughs]
Shannon O'Neill Oh! Did I do it on Gethard Show?
Connor Ratliff Yeah, it was the episode that Amy Poehler was on.
Shannon O'Neill Yes!
[Rapid jazz music starts]
Connor Ratliff I had failed to win the presidency...
Connor Ratliff I had done an 18-month-long bit on the show in 2011 to 2012, where I ran for president. My entire platform was that I was 35-years-old, AKA old enough to be president. And when I failed to win the election, I immediately transformed the bit into a pledge that I would win at least one gold medal in the 2016 Summer Olympics.
Shannon O'Neill Wait, that was a bit?
Connor Ratliff Yeah, it was always a bit.
Shannon O'Neill Aw, ffffffuck.
Connor Ratliff So, in the middle of a live entirely unscripted segment on The Chris Gethard Show, Shannon made a reference to me being fired by Tom Hanks, which, to most of the people there or most of the people that were watching, was a total non-sequitur.
Connor Ratliff And, and I think everyone is, um, using a magic eight ball to predict people's futures?
Shannon O'Neill Yeah.
Connor Ratliff And you predicted that...
Shannon O'Neill Mine says you'll get to the opening ceremonies, but then Tom Hanks will replace you.
[Laughter echoes and fades]
Connor Ratliff It got like, a knowing laugh from the people in the room who had heard the story. What it required was for me to explain what the context of the joke was.
Chris Gethard: Do you want to reveal to the world what Tom Hanks told you or no?
Connor Ratliff He said, I had—Well, he didn't say it to me. I was told I had "dead eyes."
[Laughter echoes and fades.]
[Music ends]
Shannon O'Neill So this podcast is, is because of me?
Connor Ratliff In, in some ways, yeah, because—
Shannon O'Neill Wow! What else, uh, have I, uh, created? [Laughs] Just kidding. I'm just being an asshole right now.
Connor Ratliff We won't make you look bad. I promise, especially since...
Connor Ratliff The point is, Shannon has a way of making things happen.
[Theme music fades in]
And when she brought up my Tom Hanks story on live TV, it sort of transformed it from this weird little show business secret from my past into more of a comedy bit that I couldn't escape from.
She was also instrumental in helping me book one of the key jobs that set me on a path towards returning to show business as a professional actor, a decade-and-a-half after my Band of Brothers disaster.
Voice of God This is Dead Eyes, a podcast about one actor's quest to find out why Tom Hanks fired him from a small role in the 2001 HBO mini-series Band of Brothers.
Connor Ratliff I'm Connor Ratliff. I'm an actor and comedian. Twenty years ago—
Connor Ratliff I was fired from Band of Brothers.
[Laughter]
Chris Gethard This is true!
Connor Ratliff That's a true fact, uh...
Chris Gethard You were an actor—
Connor Ratliff I didn't do anything wrong! It's just that the day before I was supposed to film my scenes, I got—
[Laughter]
And I thought—They wanted a more military-type.
Chris Gethard That's fair.
Connor Ratliff There was a draft in World War II!
[Laughter echoes and fades]
Connor Ratliff And that's the short version.
[Music ends]
[Presidential music starts]
If you're a fan of the HBO original series VEEP, starring Julia Louis-Dreyfus, I have a small role in an episode of that show. A really memorable episode, actually, near the end of season four, called "Testimony," which was written and directed by serious creator Amando Iannucci. But if you go back and watch it, you won't see me in it. It's an off-screen role. You can just hear my voice as an off-camera attorney during a series of deposition videos.
[Presidential music ends]
Connor Ratliff as Off-Camera Attorney He said he takes care of your sanitary needs. Is that correct?
Julia Louis-Dreyfus as Selena Meyer Yeah—what?
Connor Ratliff as Off-Camera Attorney Do you not see the conflict of interest? I mean, we are investigating direct links between lobbyists and your administration.
Julia Louis-Dreyfus as Selena Meyer Yes, I see it—
Connor Ratliff as Off-Camera Attorney Does it not concern you?
Julia Louis-Dreyfus as Selena Meyer —but I don't—If you would just let me finish my sentence, that would be very much appreciated.
[Mysterious walking bass line starts]
Connor Ratliff I got the job in the weirdest way. I just received an email out of nowhere. This was back in the year, 2014.
Mysterious Email Reader Hi Connor. We wanted to check on your availability for VEEP. They're still working on the script, but this will be for a role that is off-camera, asking questions to the series regulars. It shoots in Baltimore, December 8th and 9th. Are you available those dates? Do you have an agent or manager that I should be sending this inquiry to? Best, Peter
Connor Ratliff At one point, I recall thinking that maybe it was a scam to get my Social Security number or something, because it sounded fake. An off-camera speaking role? And I don't need to audition? The part is just mine? I can have it?
But I checked around and found out that it was legit, that VEEP star Matt Walsh, one of the founders of UCB, had asked for the artistic director to recommend a handful of performers. And that was all it took. I got the part.
[Music fades]
Shannon O'Neill Walsh said, "Send me a list of three or four amazing improvisers who might play an off-camera interviewer for a VEEP episode." And I—You know what I said, "Fuck you, Walsh." And I sent him five.
Connor Ratliff Was I number five in the list? Like, if there had been three or four, would—Do you think I would have made the cut?
Shannon O'Neill I don't remember. I mean, you were number one. I listed you first.
Connor Ratliff Number one.
Shannon O'Neill But I don't think that matters. I think it's just...
Connor Ratliff I think it matters to be number one.
Shannon O'Neill Yeah, it was November 18th, 2014, at 9:46 PM. Matt Walsh emailed me. And when did I respond? 10:32 PM. That's right. I was always working.
Connor Ratliff All right.
Shannon O'Neill So what you really needed from me was just to say, “Yes, that's true?” And then this, this—We could have been done?
Connor Ratliff I think the minimum would have been, "Shannon. Did you—Was my name on the list that you gave to Matt Walsh?"
Shannon O'Neill And I would have said, "Yes."
Connor Ratliff Could we just get it clean?
[Presidential music starts]
Shannon O'Neill [Laughter, sigh] Ok.
Matt Walsh Wow. I love this. Revisiting something that is so significant to you. And yet [laughs] we're all narcissists, we're like, "I don't' remember!"
Connor Ratliff I had never met Matt Walsh before doing my part on VEEP. By the time I had started taking classes and performing at UCB New York, he and the other three founders of the theatre had already relocated to LA, and so they weren't around as often. And I didn't meet him during the shoot either. All I knew at the time was that he was the one who had asked Shannon for a list.
[Music fades]
Matt Walsh Well, yeah, I was always happy to have UCB blood in the show and they were friendly to improv. So I'd always look for opportunities or poke my nose in and try to cast folks from the theater. So I don't know if I get full credit for pulling you into that specifically, but I'm sure I delivered up the notes that, uh, you came to the top of Shannon's mind. Like, I think it's exactly, you know, your skill set.
Connor Ratliff We didn't have to memorize anything. We didn't have to dress up like lawyers. We would just sit off-camera and Armando would sit next to me and sometimes he'd just lean over and say, “Why don't you ask about this?” Or he'd sort of like, he'd sort of like, write on-the-fly, different directions for the lawyers to go in.
Matt Walsh Mhm.
Connor Ratliff And I remember thinking, Well, this is great because Armando is one of my heroes. And, you know, I, I, when I, when I was in drama school in England, I was obsessed with I Am Alan Partridge, and—
Matt Walsh Oh my god, me too.
Connor Ratliff I was like, tracking down like, everything that I could find that he had to do with. So I was thinking, This will set me up that when they're thinking of anybody for the next season, I will maybe come to mind.
And of course like, two episodes after that, Armando's back in England, the show has moved to LA like, that move of VEEP from, from Baltimore to LA and Armando no longer being the showrunner meant like, “Oh, well that was the one person that I felt like I was impressing.” And I thought, Oh, well maybe they'll bring me back if they have an on-camera, like small role or something.
Matt Walsh Well, you're absolutely right to assume that. That is how the show functioned. I'm sure you did impress him. Because I know you're funny and I'm sure he was like, excited about a new toy in a way like, "Oh my god, this guy has such a great take." Like, he thought that way when he met talent. So I don't think you were wrong to be excited about that.
Connor Ratliff My only TV show experiences at that point, obviously there was the Band of Brothers experience in the year 2000, and then there's a long, long gap before I do anything else. Like, when I did Broad City, it wasn't a show yet. I hadn't—it hadn't aired on Comedy Central. Whereas VEEP was the first time that I was on a set of a show that I was already invested in the fictional universe of the show.
Matt Walsh And you didn't blow it!
Connor Ratliff And I didn't blow it. And it was a real honor to be a part of it. And yet I'm still off-camera. It felt like, "We won't let you—You can't be on the show, but you can be in the show." Like when I was telling people like, "Yeah, watch this episode of VEEP. And like, you won't see me." And they're like...You kind of have to explain like, “I'm an off-camera attorney and you'll hear me. You'll recognize my voice. You know."
[Rambling guitar music starts]
Connor Ratliff The whole experience was very fun, very positive. But there was one aspect to it that I didn't even know about at the time. Something I would learn a few years later that would add a small ripple of intrigue to the entire thing, which is that one of VEEP's biggest fans is Tom Hanks.
[Guitar music fades]
Matt Walsh He sent us up all a letter when we were on the show, how much he loved the show, he gave us each a typewritten letter and basically said "You're comedy lords, I bow down to you." He was very like, humble and like, worshippy. It was very sweet and, uh, a historic moment, obviously. Like, that's like getting a letter from Abraham Lincoln. Like, you know, we have to never lose this, like confirmation of my connection to Tom Hanks—who thinks I'm a genius! Like, this is unbelievable!
Connor Ratliff It's so funny. How show business is just like, a moderate-sized, small town's worth of people.
Matt Walsh Comedy is also even smaller subset in a way. You're just fortunate that, if you're nice, it all doesn't come back to bite you. [Laughs] Do you know what I mean? Like, before you realize that lesson of how small it is, if you were just, your default position is just be nice to people, then you'll be okay.
[Waltzy guitar music fades in]
Connor Ratliff When we return, I'll be talking with Matt's VEEP costar, Tony Hale.
[Music fades]
Tony Hale Have you still kind of not had any vegetables?
Connor Ratliff No, I have vegetables all the time.
[Joyful guitar music starts]
I just never enjoy them. They're, uh—
Tony Hale They're just awful.
Connor Ratliff I treat them like medicine.
Tony Hale [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I'm talking with Tony Hale, who played the role of Gary on VEEP and also Buster Bluth on Arrested Development. Now, I don't know him well-enough to confidently say we're friends, but—and that feels presumptuous and makes me feel nervous to say it out loud like that on a podcast, but—you know what? I'm going to go ahead and say it: I think we might be friends.
Tony Hale Uh-huh.
Connor Ratliff I mean, at this point it's more about the discipline of like, I don't like it, but I, I just, I'll never eat vegetables for pleasure. I just eat them for medicine.
Tony Hale Yeah, I get that. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I know I need to eat them. And I know that. There's nothing. I like to eat that my body needs, but there are a lot of things that I like to eat that are just killing me.
Tony Hale Sure. I get it. I get it. What's like, if—what is like your abso—
[bell dings]
Can you hear the trolley? That was the San Francisco Trolley! Um...
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff What we're referring to here is the time that I interviewed him for an hour for a brief segment on The Chris Gethard Show. It's a video you can find online where I was forced to eat vegetables in order to be allowed to ask him detailed questions about Arrested Development.
[Dramatic music fades in]
Connor Ratliff Oh no, I have more—many more questions than I think I could possibly eat of these. These are brussel sprouts, yes? Does this count?
Tony Hale Totally counts. Oh...
[Dramatic music, sounds of Connor eating, laughter]
Connor Ratliff The front of my tongue probably hasn't tasted vegetable in...fifteen years.
Tony Hale The front of your tongue.
Connor Ratliff The front of my tongue.
[Waltzing guitar music starts]
Connor Ratliff Tony won two Emmys for his work on VEEP, so he is most definitely one of the "Lords of Comedy" referenced in the typewritten note from Tom Hanks. And while Hanks never made a cameo appearance on VEEP, he does sort of play a role on the show without ever appearing on camera. I don't want to ruin it for people who haven't seen it yet, but there is an offhand reference to Hanks and the very first episode that comes back in the series finale, and I'm very satisfying way.
Tony Hale Yeah. A really, a really great button, and they're shooting it and then somebody's like, "Did we even ask Tom if we can do this?" And so they sent him an email and he was like, "Of course, of course, of course."
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff It occurs to me, hearing that, that, that means that Tom Hanks has watched a TV show that has my voice on it, but not my eyes.
Tony Hale [Laughter]
Connor Ratliff My face was never seen on VEEP, so there's...It's an—you know, the—I remember when I got that little part in VEEP but I was like, "Well, this is my second opportunity to be on an HBO show, but it's still nowhere near getting my face onto HBO—getting those dead eyes onto the, uh, HBO signal.
[80s techno-dance music starts]
Connor Ratliff I think the first thing I ever saw Tony Hale in was probably the 1999 "Mr. Roboto" Volkswagen commercial, which would later be spoofed on an episode of Arrested Development. And part of the reason that we did that vegetable eating interview was that it was known that I was such an early and vocal fan of that show. I used to post all the time on a website called Television Without Pity, where Mitch Hurwitz, the creator of the show, along with a lot of the writers and cast, would lurk to see how people were reacting to each new episode.
Tony Hale It was a place where we felt like certain, at least certain people were getting what we felt like we were getting from it. You know, like, "Well, at least they were getting it."
Connor Ratliff Yeah. It felt like it was like, a place where people watching the show would leave notes for the people who were making the show and you'd go see those notes. Like it—There definitely started to be a dialogue between this message board and the show, in that jokes started showing up on TV that you felt like the only people who might get these very tiny jokes were people who were that actively involved in the message boards.
There started being things where a number would appear in an episode, and everyone on the message boards would start obsessing about what that number meant.
Tony Hale Oh, I love that. And actually I remember—Because weren't you like Middleman or what was the name you had?
Connor Ratliff I was Middleman.
Tony Hale Right.
Connor Ratliff So when, when a character shows up in season three, whose name is Larry Middleman—
Tony Hale [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff —that has a clear meaning for the show, but that's also my handle on Television Without Pity.
Tony Hale Did, did everybody else on the message boards mention it?
Connor Ratliff I think it might've been someone else who started pointing it out and then I was like, "Maybe?" and then—
Tony Hale So wait, what did Mitch say when we texted him during that last interview?
Connor Ratliff I think he just texted, "I love him," when you asked about me, because he remember—he remembered that I was a booster of the show. And then, a couple of years later, he basically confirmed it on Twitter that I was the original Middleman.
Tony Hale Oh! Come on! That's cool.
[Guitar jaunt starts]
Connor Ratliff Tony has come by UCB to watch ASSSSCAT. He's been a guest on my George Lucas Talk Show livestream while he was stuck in a hotel room, quarantining in Toronto. He's someone who will just every now and then send a message saying something nice. So Tony is someone I feel comfortable reaching out to, and the fact that he co-starred with Tom Hanks in Toy Story 4 as Forky felt like another good reason to talk to him. At least that was my thought. I had a whole long list of questions about what it was like acting opposite Tom Hanks.
[Music ends]
Tony Hale No, we never, we never recorded together.
Connor Ratliff You're kidding me.
Tony Hale I want to say not, I don't know if anybody did this time, but, um, they might have done it in the other Toy Stories, but in this, we all recorded individually. And so, the director would just bounce the lines off of you and you would, you know, do various versions of it. There was one time I remember I was going into record and Tom Hanks had just recorded before me, and he was walking out as I was walking in. But never, um, never recorded together.
Connor Ratliff That's amazing to me, because it feels like there's such chemistry in the movie, that that is just a trick of, you know, professional acting and recording trickery.
Tony Hale You know, we did a lot of different versions for each line, so I mean, they—I'm sure it took a lot of work to really find the matches of what would work since we weren't in the same room?
Connor Ratliff Yeah. I mean, it's not exactly a hot take to say that the people at Pixar know what they're doing by now. [Laughs] Like, these guys know how to, they know how to make these.
Tony Hale [Laughing]
Connor Ratliff Um, so my assumption is then that you probably interacted more with him when you're like promoting the movie than actually making it.
Tony Hale Mhm, yeah.
Connor Ratliff It's, it's funny because my actual interaction with him was so nice except for the actual circumstances of what it was. Which was, I for whatever reason was not like, right for this thing. And I was also like, crazy in my head—
Tony Hale Mhm, mhm.
Connor Ratliff —because of what the, what the person in my agent's office had said to me.
Tony Hale Isn't it amazing, though, like, the power of words, like for that assistant, even if it's, even if it wasn't true, for them to say something like that, like, we really underestimate the power of these words.
You know, I remember somebody years ago—and I don't think I have, I don't have that great of a resonant—but there was this voice—there was this acting teacher who was like, "Tony, you have, you know, no resonance to your voice," like, was so demeaning. And those words, man, are very, very powerful and un—and unfortunately in Hollywood people don't—and I think anywhere actually—they don't value their words. They throw them out so—They'll even throw them out to like, not burn bridges or whatever without—They'll say like, "Oh yeah, yeah, yeah!" without knowing that they're—they meant, "No," like, “It's not going to happen.”
But people cling on to that "Yeah, yeah, yeah!" You know, like, say what—There's a lot of integrity to someone whose "yes" is "yes" and their "no" is "no." And that's—Words aren't really treated as precious as they should be.
[Funereal guitar march begins]
And by the way, Connor, you do not have dead eyes, just FYI.
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff Did you ever have any really big disappointments starting out as an actor?
Tony Hale Oh, yeah. And I still do.
Connor Ratliff Really?
Tony Hale I think, yeah, it's, it's always a hustle. Because I moved to New York in '95. And, um, because I don't know if you remember, you're younger than I am, but there was a magazine called Backstage that you would get—
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Tony Hale And then you would circle all these possible jobs and...But I just kind of had a ton of jobs, a ton of like, you know, just to make the ends meet jobs. And then I would do theater on the side and then I started getting into commercials, but it took me seven years to find an agent to represent me for TV and film.
Connor Ratliff Wow.
Tony Hale And every time pilot season would go by just that frustration of missing—feeling like I'm missing opportunities, and...the weird thing about it is like, typically in life, people do a job interview for two or three months, and then they have a job for two or three or however many years. In our business, you're on a job interview for two or three years, and then you're lucky to get a gig for two or three months. Like, it's—you're always, you're always on a job interview and there's only one person for the job.
So there's—So rejection and disappointment is, is a part of what you sign up for.
Connor Ratliff And weirdly there, there's a, there's an unusual sort of—The way that the, the sort of show business ecosystem works is: the less you need it, the more it wants you. And the more you need it, the more it will kind of like, reject you.
Tony Hale For me, it, it comes in waves, you know, it's like, sometimes I feel like I'm really good at it. And I'm like, "All right, press on." And then other days when you really, really do want something and it doesn't work out, it's like, "All right, I'm going to be pretty disappointed today, and then move on tomorrow." [Laughs] You know, it's like kind of giving yourself self rather than—I remember. I guess it was like, hmmm, five years ago, I was supposed to do this really great movie, um, in North Korea.
Connor Ratliff Wow. You were going to film in North Korea.
Tony Hale Well, no, sorry. We weren't going to film in North Korea, but it was—No, I—Let me take that back. It was a—It took place in North Korea, but we were going to film someplace else, like Budapest or something.
Connor Ratliff Gotcha.
Tony Hale And, um, I—Without saying names, it was like, really great names were involved, and this director. And I met with the director, and I was just like, I had that same moment of like, "Alright, this is...really exciting." Gave it a lot of weight. And then, um, The Interview came out—
[Goofy guitar strumming starts]
—with Randall Park and, um, all that kind of stuff. And there was all this controversy about it. I don't know if you remember. And right after Christmas, I got a phone call saying, "They're not doing the movie.”
It was just like, "What?" [Laughs] Like, I was like, "What's going on?"
Connor Ratliff Just a quick note, in case you're out of the loop here, the James Franco, Seth Rogen feature film The Interview was a comedy about a fictional U.S. attempt to assassinate the leader of North Korea.
And in case Seth is listening to this episode: Hi, Seth. I want you to know your name came up organically, I promise. We're not trying to turn this into a recurring segment. Tony is fine, please don't feel obligated to reach out. Sorry, this keeps happening.
[Music fades]
Tony Hale It was another one of those lessons where I'm sure you experienced this, too. It's just like, "I have no control over this. I am completely powerless to this situation." And for me to jump on a train of frustration—I mean, I can be frustrated. We're allowed those feelings. We're allowed to walk through those feelings...
Connor Ratliff We need those feelings sometimes.
Tony Hale And we need those feelings. I need—we need to express that. But when I keep jumping on this, this feeling train with something that is completely out of my control, it's like I, I got to, I'm getting to a place and I, I got to a place where it's like, I need to sit more in the powerlessness of the situation and be like, "I am powerless to this. I...This is out of my control and now I just have to keep walking."
But it's like, the more that happens, as hard as it is, it's more of a gift, where it's like, you know what? It's not just this job. It's life. We're completely powerless to so many things. And there's some joy in kind of sitting in that powerlessness rather than sitting in this place of like, "I can control the way people think; I have this kind of control." We—There's—So much is out of our control.
Connor Ratliff I also find, I have to remind myself, because I still think, you know, when I talk to an actor like you, that there's a, there's a magical level that you can get to where everything will be okay.
Tony Hale I love the story when Jim Carrey—maybe it was the Golden Globes—and he had won two previously, or something like that. And he came out, and in his speech he said...
Jim Carrey ...and when I dream, I don't just dream any old dream.
[Laughter]
I dream about being three-time Golden Globe-winning actor, Jim Carrey...
[Laughter]
Jim Carrey ...because then I would be enough.
[Laughter]
Tony Hale They switched to the audience and everybody laughed, but I'm sure there's still that part in all of us that think, Oh, but if I do this, it will be enough. It will be all okay. And the fact is: it's never enough. It's never enough. And it's a constant lesson to all of us to be like, "Hey, let's wake up to what's around us. Let's practice being present."
You and I, we're the most known we're ever going to be, and ever going to need if people who are close to us know us and love us. That's the most known we're ever going to need. You know, it's just all of those kind of daily lessons we have—I have to wake up to.
Connor Ratliff It's also one of those things where it's like, if you're always focused on the next thing without appreciating the thing that you're currently involved in, you'll never, you'll—It'll never be enough. You know, sometimes it's like, when you watch someone who's like, super rich and they're trying to get richer and you're like, "Don't you realize that you have so much?"
Tony Hale And they don't. And they don't. And that's what this, um, this children's book I did was about. You know, it's because I, I—When I booked Arrested Development those many years ago here, I was on a great gig, my dream gig, and it didn't satisfy me the way I thought it was going to satisfy me.
I mean, it scared me. It had nothing to do with the show, nothing to do with the actors. It was all the weight I had given it. And I was still looking to my next thing. And it's like, if you're not practicing contentment where you are, you're not going to be content when you get what you want. And I had felt like I had not been practicing being present for most of my life.
So this little chicken in the book gets a card in the mail that says, "Your big thing is here." And he's like, "Where?" And he goes on all these adventures, but every time he's on a great adventure, he's like, "I gotta get to my next big thing," and this bee travels around with them. And it's like, "You gotta just be man. You gotta just be."
[Fluttering piano piece begins]
And then in the end he realizes that the card is right. That your big thing is right here. My big thing right now is talking to you. That's my big thing. And I have to wake up to that every single day. Which by the way, it's easy to talk about this too. I suck at it [laughs]. But I think I talk about it a lot, because it's like, it's a reminder for me.
[Piano fades]
Connor Ratliff I talked to the actor who, uh, ended up replacing me on Band of Brothers.
Tony Hale Oh, really?
Connor Ratliff Yeah. And he's someone that—I told him, I said, you know, for a couple years after it happened—because I kinda backed away and I wasn't pursuing show business or anything—and I would check his IMDB every now and then almost as if I was checking to see like, what my life would have been.
Tony Hale Mm.
Connor Ratliff There was a point that I realized in talking to him that within a decade of me getting fired from that part and him getting that part, I was working at a bookstore in New York City. And he was working at a bookstore in Canada and we both felt the exact same way.
Tony Hale Mhm. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff We both felt like, “Ugh, we blew it. We blew it."
Tony Hale Here's the greater truth. Even if that guy went on to win five Oscars and became whatever, that does not equate joy. That does not equate real living. If anything, these lessons where you grab onto that self-awareness and really see things around you, and really try to wake yourself up and see each other and love each other, whatever, like that's, that's where the joy is. That's the equation.
Connor Ratliff And also like, trying to find what's also fun or funny about how insane this industry can be sometimes, you know?
Tony Hale Yeah, totally.
Connor Ratliff The number of times that I've auditioned for parts where the description of the character is viscerally insulting to the actor auditioning for it...
Tony Hale [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff ...where you get, you get a job offer that is basically just like, "We're looking for a repulsive looking, uh, creep!"
Tony Hale Yeah. I'll one, I'll one-up that. The best is when they use your name to describe a type.
Connor Ratliff Oh boy.
Tony Hale So like my friend, [laughs] my friend was auditioning for something and it was like, "a Tony Hale type." And then in the description it was like, "You know, like an emasculated nobody." [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
[Funky beat drops]
Tony Hale And it's like, "Oh...all right. [Laughs] Well, I don't consent. [Laughs] You can maybe attach that to Buster or Gary, but I don't know if you need to put my name in there."
[Music fades]
Connor Ratliff Have you ever had an experience of being cut from a film where you didn't find out until you saw the thing like, "Oh, they didn't use this," or "They didn't—"
Tony Hale Not a film, but I do remember a couple times, I remember when I was in New York and I got—you know, just trying to find gigs and Conan O'Brien wanted me, or I got the role, some role on Conan O'Brien to play—Do you remember that movie Shine with Geoffrey Rush?
Connor Ratliff Yes.
Tony Hale Well, they were doing a parody of it and I was playing Geoffrey Rush at the piano. And I told all of my family to stay up. And at that time there was no DVR, anything like that. So they all stayed up until like 11:30 at night, or whenever it airs. Needless to just say, I was cut. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Ugh.
Tony Hale And I was like, "You know what? Until it is on the screen, until I'm actually on the, you know, it's—I just don't mention it." I just don't—Unless I absolutely know it is coming out, I don't ever say anything.
Connor Ratliff Yeah, you learn that the hard way, because when you tell everybody, then it means a lot to them. They get focused on it and then you end up having to like, answer a lot of questions and you know...
Tony Hale Oh yeah, and not to mention my family who told their friends.
Connor Ratliff Yeah, it spreads like wildfire.
Tony Hale You know, they, they tell my relatives and like, "Oh my gosh"—and they call me Anthony—"Anthony is going to be on Conan tonight, Anthony is gonna dah dah dah dah." And so then they're getting—Not only am I getting questions, but they're getting questions like, "Oh, I didn't see Anthony." And it's like, Oh god. Now I'm putting everybody in chaos.
I don't know, it's, it's tricky. It really is this weird uncertainty we walk in, this kind of walk of faith. And I always tell, like, you know, when I talk to students or whatever about the like, what advice I would give them, and I don't—I always say, "Invest in your community before you invest in your career." Because it's your community that's going to keep you—give you longevity because they're the people that are going to see you for who you are when the business, you know, you're just a number sometimes.
Connor Ratliff Yeah, that took me a long time to figure that out, you know?
[Soft guitar waltz begins]
Tony Hale Well it's, it's—but it's, it's really like, that's the only thing that I really survived, was the community that I had gracefully been given when I was in New York, just my good friends and that I could just, you know, come back and be like frustrated, but then they just kind of encourage me on and see me for who I am. And it was just everything to me. That's totally what kept me going.
Connor Ratliff There's a period of time in my life that I sometimes think of as my "Wilderness Years," starting in the year 2000 when I quit acting, and lasting roughly a decade or so. And it's not like I was living in the woods, foraging for food and trying to make fire Cast Away style. It's that I had more or less removed myself from the civilization of show business—if you want to call it that—and wandered away from the profession I had spent my life pursuing up until getting fired from Band of Brothers.
Originally, the reason I had to tell people my Tom Hanks Dead Eyes story wasn't because it was funny or interesting. It was because I had already told them that I was going to be in Band of Brothers. So I had to explain to them that it wasn't going to be happening anymore. And why.
It was obligatory. And it was embarrassing.
Now, I had people who were on my side, who were sympathetic; friends and family. It's not like I was going through it all alone. But there was something missing. Because what Tony talked about—investing in your community before investing in your career—I hadn't totally done that yet.
And it took me a long time to try. To reach out from the wilderness, posting on internet message boards, trying to connect with a TV show from a distance as a fan. To make myself vulnerable on stage in an improv class. Meeting people who were on the outskirts, like me, trying to find a way in. People who could see what was funny about being fired by Tom Hanks. People who would blurt the story out, unprompted, during the live taping of a television show.
[Music ends]
Shannon O’Neill You no longer have to be sad about this, and now you can...don't make it your weakness, make it your power.
Connor Ratliff It kind of is like, me reclaiming the experience as a different thing.
Shannon O'Neill Yes.
Connor Ratliff We've been on an improv team for...almost a decade?
Shannon O'Neill Mhm.
Connor Ratliff Although are we counting—[laughs] I'm still counting the time during pandemic in which improv doesn't exist.
Shannon O'Neill We're still on an improv team together.
Connor Ratliff I'm still counting it towards the total.
Shannon O'Neill For life, bro. Don't you remember when we both pissed each other's mouths?
Connor Ratliff Yep. I do remember.
Shannon O'Neill We did a little...piss siblings. Instead of like blood brothers, you know, we did piss siblings?
Connor Ratliff Really campaigning hard for that Peabody Award. Um...
Shannon O'Neill [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Even by that point, that was relatively early in our span of our performing together. We were already at a point where you were one of the people that I trusted. Like you knew when you revealed it, that it would be something that would be fun and good for me and not a thing that I’d afterwards be like, "Shannon! Why did you say that?! You embarrassed me in front of Amy Poehler!"
Shannon O'Neill You're like, bringing a—the memory, very like, to the front of my brain. And, um, I remember wanting Amy to know who you were.
Connor Ratliff Oh, interesting.
Shannon O'Neill I know I'm like, teasing you in that loving way that I, that I tease you, but also I'm revealing this kind of like, very interesting, specific fact about you. Because you hadn't really met her before, right?
Connor Ratliff No, not at all.
Shannon O'Neill Yeah. That was like your first time meeting her. So it's like, "Oh, Connor's doing this like, this silly thing of like training to be in the Olympics." But it's like, "I think Amy should know that he did stuff before this.”
Connor Ratliff [Laughs]
Shannon O'Neill Like, "He's actually also like, a real actor who's not just like—He's not just a clown in metallic pants.
Connor Ratliff By far, the funniest part of the bit that I did that night was, was you derailing it. [Laughs]
Shannon O'Neill [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff And me talking about something that I had genuinely not planned on like, talking about on the show, you know? So thank you.
Shannon O'Neill I mean, that's improv, right? You—The unplanned.
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Shannon O'Neill And you had to give your, you had to give your elevator pitch of it.
Connor Ratliff Yeah! It—Yeah, having—
Shannon O'Neill Not, not, not your normal thirty minute version. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff I knew that Gethard was only going to allow me a certain window in which to tell the story. And if I said, "Well, you see, I had done a series of auditions.” You know, if I had started, it basically would have been the pilot episode of this podcast.
Shannon O'Neill "I moved to London and I was in an actors' conservatory.”
Connor Ratliff [Laughs] Yeah.
[Aimee Mann's "Soon Enough" starts]
Shannon O'Neill And now I'm in my own childhood fort, doing a podcast. [Laughs]
Connor Ratliff Yeah. Yeah. [Sighs]
Shannon O'Neill [Sighs] Do you name the—Do you name each podcast? Like, do you give it a title?
Connor Ratliff Yeah.
Shannon O'Neill Can you call this one "Piss Siblings?"
Connor Ratliff I promise you. I promise. [Laughs]
Shannon O'Neill [Laughs]
[“Soon Enough” continues]
Connor Ratliff Dead Eyes is a production of Headgum Studios. It was created by me, Connor Ratliff. It's written by me, and it's mostly me that you hear talking, including now. The show is produced and edited by Harry Nelson and Mike Comite.
Special thanks to my guests Shannon O'Neill, Matt Walsh, and Tony Hale. And thanks to Aimee Mann for letting us use this song that's playing in the background. It's from her 2012 album Charmer. It's a great record. If you don't already own a copy, maybe go to aimeemann.com and buy one. Or order one from your local independent record store.
If you like Dead Eyes, please do all the things that podcasts tell you to do: subscribe, rate, review. Follow us on Twitter @deadeyespodcast and talk about us nicely on social media. If you want to reach out, the email address is deadeyespodcast@gmail.com.
Please tell your friends about this show, especially if you are friends with Tom Hanks, whose performance in the film Charlie Wilson's War is, I think, probably the most VEEP-like thing he's done. Obviously Aaron Sorkin is a very different writer than Armando Iannucci, but it's still the thing that popped into my head when I was thinking about Hanks's love for VEEP. I can imagine programming a double bill of Charlie Wilson's War and Iannucci's In the Loop, which came out two years later. Both sharp films about politicians making deals and waging war, and unintended consequences. I would love to see Tom Hanks in a film by Armando Iannucci. Can someone make that happen? And if it does, let them know I am available, even for roles that are entirely off-camera.
See you next time. Stay safe. Wear a mask.