PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - EPISODE 033

[MM] MANAGING PROBLEM CLIENTS WITH RACHEL CASTRO

Please note: This transcript was created with the assistance of AI technology. While we strive for accuracy, the text may contain errors and should be verified against the original source for critical uses.

Annemie Tonken  00:00

Welcome to mini mentoring. A weekly bonus episode of This can't be that hard. Every Friday, I share a conversation that I've had with one of you my amazing listeners about a problem or issue that's got you stuck in your photography business. We set the timer for 15 minutes and see how much progress we can make. And sometimes 15 minutes is all you need to find clarity or achieve your next breakthrough. If you've got an issue that you'd like to have featured on the show, stick around at the end to find out how to reach out. But for now, let's dive in. Rachel, it is so great to have you on this can't be that hard. How are you today? Good. Thank you. How are you? I'm good. I'm good. I am excited to dive into this when you sent me your email about this issue it like hit all these nerves that I feel like are going to be helpful, not just for you, but hopefully for a lot of people. So I'm going to start my timer for 15 minutes. And then I want you to just dive right in and tell me as much about this situation and the backstory as you can. You're ready. Ready and start.

01:07

Okay, so what I really wanted to talk to you about today has to to it's sort of it's sort of an ongoing issue, and also some very specific issues. So I'm going to talk to you about the client issue when when I reached out first, which is that, essentially I had a client who I did headshots for. And there are a lot of particulars to the story. But the summarized version of it is she had a great deal of anxiety about how about having her photo taken, and did communicate that to me actively, but in sort of jokey ways, like sending me pictures of what she would look like in the photos. And it's like this huge, overweight, you know, like a wrestler, jokey wrestler. So things like that kind of communicating that she was anxious about taking the photos. And, you know, I was like, Don't worry, everybody has some anxiety about getting their photo taken. We talked to the process. So my headshots are actually priced pretty inexpensively. Because like, because I'm just working with one person, and they're usually pretty straightforward. So so she did pay a session fee of $200. And then she said, You know, I'm worried about how I look. So I want there to be sort of an interesting background, I don't want it to be just my face. She's like, so I'm a mortgage lender. So I want it to sort of hint at construction. So I did like a couple scouting trips. And I looked at different places that had backgrounds that sort of spoke to construction. And it took a couple because we scheduled this pre pandemic and then post pandemic, I'm only shooting outside with clients. So I had a separate one. And then finding this beautiful wall that's, that's original to the area that we're in it's got plaster and brick that sort of combine. So I photographed so wall with my DSLR and, you know, corrected and post made out exactly like how it would when she got it, or the location she approved it. She brought five outfits, we shot for an hour and a half in front of the wall. And you know, I was actually pretty surprised when I showed that because she was after all her self deprecation. I expected her to be like, have some sort of objective thing that that that she was anxious about. But in fact, she was like this beautiful woman in our 50s. Okay, so and we talked, you know, she talked about her, we talked, she's got like this property with horses up here in California and a home in Maui. And we were having a lovely time discussing these things and session and I, when I delivered her images, I delivered all the images, the same through the strategy that you teach. So they came through a video through pick time. And then I had my phone in my bedroom. And it wasn't for about two hours and I get back to my phone. I've got like 16 mixed text messages from her calls. So I sense that that was a red flag. You know what, whatever is going on here, maybe I should give her a little space, whatever she you know, seems like she's an emotional place. But then I kept getting the text messages. So I was like maybe what's right, because I call her and do some active listening. So I called her and I was like, you know what's going on? I'm getting a lot of messages and all the messages were just questions about the collections, which like we had already gone over. I'll be it a while ago because there was a pandemic that sort of slowed things down. Essentially what she said on the phone was she didn't like the photos because her hair is gray and the wall is also gray. Now I was shooting it like 2.8. So as you can imagine, she was like 10 feet away from the wall. So because there's a distinction, but it isn't aesthetic, like, I didn't know her hair was great. But even still, I like the photos. But I can see, you know, I can see why that might not be your look, you know, but the thing was, is that she, there were some that weren't on that wall that were on a different wall. So she said, I can use those. Just because as we were there, we ended up taking some pictures in front of a red brick wall, which I hate red brick for the background of a work trip, but she liked that fine. She's like, so I just want to buy, you know, I don't want the the collection has 20 images, I just want to buy one or two. I'm like, Okay, so the collection includes 20 images, but you're welcome to download less than that I would more or less assume for a headshot that you'd be looking for one or two photos, like an album.

Annemie Tonken  05:53

Yeah.

05:54

And she's like, well, that's a rip off. And I'm not gonna if if I liked all 20 photos, like I thought it would, then I would pay for them. But I only like three. So I'm only going to pay for three of them. So I said, sounds like you're upset. I hear what you're saying. And she kept getting more and more angry. And I said, you know, okay, it sounds like you don't like the photos. Like, I'm hearing that. And she's like, the photos are okay, I just don't like my hair color was the wall and I'm like, whatever the reason is, I'm just gonna refund you your session fee. You don't have to buy any photos, no harm, no foul, every you know. And she said, I need that photo. I mean, she starts screaming at me, Rachel, I need that photo. You know? So it's like, I'm like, okay, she's like, but I don't want to pay $200 for it. So now she's put me in a very awkward situation, because I'm not just gonna say okay, you can have have all of this for I'm literally saying you can have your money back. You're not happy. Here's your money back. Yeah, but she doesn't want her money back. I'm not taking it's not about the money. And I know it's not about the money. She's

Annemie Tonken  07:06

she's got a house in Maui. She's got a house

07:07

in Maui. You know, I can see that. It's not about the $200 it's about something else. But I don't know what and at that point, I was so upset. I started crying and then she hung up on me. So of course she left in your view.

Annemie Tonken  07:23

Okay, so that's an update from your email. Yeah.

07:27

Which actually was was there's nothing to refute. It was completely accurate. She was like, Rachel took my photos. The only thing was in the review, she says I was so upset because I looked so old. I cried. When I looked at them. She didn't really touch any of the photo. She didn't correct any line. She didn't soften anything. And we you know, Rachel was lovely, but her back she wouldn't budge on her package prices, which I'm like, that doesn't really seem like I'll feel like I should get more stars for that. But so a couple different things. So at this point, she had our I didn't want to so regarding that, first, I just want to say that if she had just said on the phone, I want you to retouch my face so that I don't have wrinkles and lines and would have done that. I don't automatically do that because I would be offended if somebody retouched something I thought was perfectly fine to be on my face. Totally. But I would I like retouching. I have no problem with retouching, I would have happily retouch but she never mentioned the retouching was an issue until the review came out. In the phone conversation, it was about the wall color, which I like. Yeah, so I could have Photoshop the wall to I don't know, but was nothing was going to solve the problem. So

Annemie Tonken  08:47

okay, now I want to switch gears and I want you to tell me whatever the bigger problem is, or the like more like ongoing problems. Hang on, guys. I have a quick message for you. Did you know that this can't be that hard isn't the only podcast I host. Each month my marketing director Dana and I team up to bring you a fresh injection of marketing ideas and inspiration on our other podcast called the consistency club. The podcast is free and available to any photographer looking to uplevel their marketing game, or you can take it one step further and join the consistency club where you get the extended version of the podcast along with monthly email and social media templates, bonus trainings and special access to the live marketing events we host twice a year. If you're interested in tuning in, you can search for and subscribe to the consistency club. Wherever you listen to podcasts. If you'd like to join us in the membership, you can visit go dot this can't be that hard.com/club to sign up.

09:53

At the same time as I have this situation going on. I have a husband who booked a boudoir session for his wife boudoir, slightly more expensive for me then headshot because it's a lot more. So the wife wanted to meet me for coffee to plan the session. And I was like, you know, we could do a phone call. I'm social distancing. So I'm not doing coffees, but even still, it feels like a kind of big ask for for sure. And I have gotten so many calls and emails and text messages from her since then. And a lot of them are like, well, let's see. So if the package is 499, then each photo should be valued at 2195. So and it's like, just like all these weird, like digging questions about money, then I'm like, this is obviously this is, wherever she is, mentally, she feels like they can't afford this boudoir session. And this is going to be a nightmare. And having just dealt with that last claim. Yeah. So I got six text messages from her before 8am This morning. Wow. And an email and a missed call. Okay. And I'm going to call her after this. And I don't know what she's gonna say. But I would guess it's going to be something along the lines of the things that we talked about when I didn't talk to her for an hour and a half on the phone already. Yeah, but things like, it just seems like if makeup isn't included, what even is the session fee? And it just feels like there should be more locations. I mean, I wanted to go to the river and shoot in the pool and shoot inside my house. Just I don't understand why it just seems like oh, and she told me her wedding photographer cost $300 Which was like total? Yes.

Annemie Tonken  11:38

So thank you wedding photographer for setting the wrong expectations. Okay, I'm gonna dive in because I want to cover several things. And the clock is ticking since we're doing this on a timer. Okay, so number one, the global issue that I am hearing here is that you need to set clear boundaries and expectations. And I recommend that you do that in the form of a whole bunch of different things. One of them is just policies, when someone hires you, they need to sign off on a series of policies. And my policy document is constantly evolving in response to this kind of BS. Like when I have a client like this, I have my pity party, and I'm like, Oh my God, never again. And then in order to ensure never again, I sit down and I figure out okay, what are the root causes of this issue? Like, what was that? What did I not communicate clearly enough? And how can I turn that into a policy that somebody has to sign so that if this does come up, again, I can be like, remember when you sign this policy document. Now, there are people who when they see a kind hearted, soft person, they hire you, sometimes specifically, because they are they have this sort of domineering personality, and especially in the case of this mortgage lender, woman, it sounds like that's what you're dealing with you you are dealing with somebody who, you know, she, she's sending you all these mixed messages about her obvious, like, massive self confidence issues and all this. And at the same time, you know, she's trying to play it off like a joke, clearly, it's not a joke, she can't be straightforward with you and say, Actually, what I need you to do is go into Photoshop and darken the wall and erase all my wrinkles, or whatever. I mean, that's not the way I like to edit. And it's not the way that I would assume that someone wanted to be edited. But if someone tells me, this is what I need, I can put a price tag on that and do it for them. So, you know, I think, I think unfortunately, that what happened was that over the course of time, and part of it honestly to to to let you know, this is that you are over delivering for her even before you took a single photo, I mean, going out and location scouting for a headshot for someone for a $200 session fee is really, above and beyond what you should be doing, you should be saying, you know, at this session fee, or this price point, I am happy for you to choose a location and it can you know, and you can give them parameters for that. But you need to you know, you need to kind of like put the lines around what you're willing to do for $200. Yeah. And so, anyway, so all of that. And then this, this other woman, I mean, this sounds like sort of a combination issue. I think you're exactly right. I think her husband bought her something that she is probably feeling both financially questioning, but it's boudoir. And I think that if she had an I have no idea right? She might have said to her husband, I want to do our session by me one but she also may have gotten this gift and been like oh my god, I don't want to do this. I feel so insecure. I'm so nervous and she's turning it into a money thing. But we are not psychiatrists or psychologists, right. We are photographers and sometimes we get sucked into this psychology stuff. In both cases, you're definitely dealing with some of that. So the best way that You can protect yourself is to be extremely upfront and clear about expectations about policies. When it comes to things like retouching, you can say to her, Well, you know, I saw in your review that you left me, I mean, at this point with that woman, you are well within your rights to just, like, turn her gallery off and, and, and wait, the ball is in her court, you have given her options. My suspicion is that you're probably not comfortable with that. And I understand that too, I probably wouldn't be comfortable with that, I think I would reach out to her and say, you know, I saw your review. And before I respond publicly to your review, which by the way, if she continues to take you down this road, the only thing you can do is go into Google or wherever and respond to that review, and list out exactly what you did, you know, I offered to refund your entire session fee, after I scouted locations that you approved, et cetera, et cetera, tell your side of the story in a professional polite way, you're not going to like degrade her, you're going to contest that for anyone. Because when you're reading reviews, critically, if I see a thoughtful response, that makes it kind of clear that like maybe this person is not being reasonable, I understand that. So before you do that, you could offer to her and say, Look, you know, I have told you that I can't, I also wouldn't offer to refund her session fee. But you've already done that. So that is what it is. In the future, I would say a session fee is a session fee. It's it's there to protect your time, I'm gonna break the rules, and go past a little bit. So I would say, you know, before I respond to your review, I just wanted to talk to you personally, once again, to say that I see in the review that you were interested in having things like your wrinkles, retouched. I never heard anything about that in a phone call, I can do that. And this is what I would say I would say normally that costs $100 or whatever, put a put an hourly rate on it $100 or even $100 An hour or whatever. And say, but since you only want to have the photos, why don't we do this? Why don't I do that retouching, you know, you purchase the lowest collection, I'll do that reef touching, and you can download five images instead of 20, or something like that. And that in this way, you're coming to an agreement with her she doesn't feel like she's giving you don't necessarily feel like you're you know, you're not losing out on money that you have absolutely over earned at this point. And hopefully that comes to a good resolution. If she mistreats. You again, all you need to say is I'm really sorry, that this that this was a bad experience for you. And you know, I hope you're able to find a good headshot in the future, she does not own that headshot, she didn't buy it from you. So I would not I would draw the line there. And that is the sort of thing that like, it doesn't sound like you have. It doesn't sound to me like that's your nature. So I realized that that's a big thing to do. But I think it's good to practice. Because when you're in business, when you do come across these people, they will stomp all over you if you let them. And then that is it. I think that's pretty much all that I needed to say I was I was just going to put an aside an asterisk on there and say that I have had a handful of clients over the years. A relatively small handful of clients who have complained a lot about how they look in their photos. Not to me necessarily, but like in an existential way, pretty much everybody says ahead of time, like I hate photos of myself, or I you know, whatever. That's not an uncommon thing. But once I've delivered photos, I feel like I'm almost to a person that people who have come back and then like, well, I love the photos of the family, but I just I look terrible. They're all attractive people, like every single one. And I have plenty I mean, I photograph a wide range of people who, you know, are beautiful to the, you know, on the inside or whatever. But like maybe they have sort of whatever they look like people and they look like real human people. And and it is the ones who are I think that that's like this deep psychology that goes into like they valued themselves because their entire lives, people have been telling them that their value has to do with the way they look, which is hard, right? Like as you inevitably age and start to lose some of that. I think that that causes a lot of people and specifically women a lot of issues. But that's a whole side issue. Yeah, I mean, your work is beautiful. You are obviously going above and beyond in terms of the service that you provide. So I would just say start to build those protections. And it is amazing to me that once you start to really show I mean when you hand somebody a policy document that's not like off putting but that clearly shows that you're not missing around those issues by and large disappear. So hopefully, this can be a learning opportunity

19:59

is a question Like, I kind of want to have a policy specifically with this. I'm going to talk to her later. I have two quick questions. One is, I, I, I am thinking that I might want to fire this client,

Annemie Tonken  20:14

or idea or session, or session. Yeah,

20:18

I think that it's, I think that it's going to be not worth it. So, to do that, I'm not quite sure how to do that. And the other question is, in terms of setting up, is there a way to make a policy about how much we're going to talk before a session, like how many text messages how many emails or phone calls or whatever.

Annemie Tonken  20:40

So I think that what, you know, I as you know, I put together a pretty thorough prep guide. And when I sell my sessions, I say, I'm going to send you this prep guide that answers 95% of the questions that I get, if you have any additional questions, you know, we can set up a phone call to discuss them, most of the time, they don't even set that up. And when they do, it's not like I set a timer. And obviously, apparently, I'm terrible at obeying the timer. But But if, but if you say we can set up a 30 minute phone call or a 15 minute phone call to go over your questions, if the if you're just having a nice conversation with someone and it goes over 15 minutes, fine. If someone is badgering you, then you get to turn around and be like, so the policy is a 15 minute phone call, if you'd like to, you know, have a more extensive conversation, I'm happy to do that my rate is $100 An hour or whatever that is. And again, like just set, just building those rules usually means that it doesn't happen. But as far as firing the client, I don't think that that's a bad idea at all. And you may actually be doing her the favor that she doesn't want to say that she wants. And the way that I would do that is when you get on the phone with her, I would say you know, look, I'm getting a lot of questions and pushback from you. And I totally understand that this was a gift that was purchased for you. And perhaps this isn't the right fit. And if that's true, I'm more than happy. You know, I don't want to work. This is boudoir photography, in particular is an extremely intimate thing. And I don't, I don't want to put you in a position where we're not 100% mutually comfortable. Yeah. So whether back off, or she'll be like, You know what, you're totally right. My guess is maybe the former, but you'll have to fill me in.

22:23

And then in the future, because right now for this one, I have a session fee. So in the future, with wedding clients, I have a distinct deposit and retainer fee. So I don't have that for portrait. So I'm wondering if I should, because now I'm just going to refund her entire fee, and there's not going to be any retainer, but in the future, I would like to have some sort of retainer for portrait sessions. So I say that

Annemie Tonken  22:50

my session fee is non refundable. Once they've booked now I'll let them like switch that if they want to put it toward a session in the future or something like that. But the session feet once it hits my bank account that doesn't go back to them there if they was like gonna say, Yeah, I guess that's just the way that I do it. I don't sell a lot of gift certificates. Because when someone contacts me about a gift certificate, I'm like, great. Did the person register for this? Is this exactly what they want from me? And if that person says no, I say that I'm not going to sell you a gift certificate unless you go and have a conversation with them. And I realized that that's sort of like an unfun gift. But I have had, I once had a situation where somebody bought a gift certificate person, it's hard, you know, photography is such a, it is such a specific, like, taste based thing. And also, usually somebody's not giving somebody $1,000 Plus gift certificate. So that means that the person who's the recipient of the gift has to turn around and spend a bunch of money. Right, which is tough. Okay, I am going to end this because I need to, I need to hold this up a little bit, because I do want these to be short, but but I hope that that was helpful. And I just wish that I could reach through the screen right now and give you a hug because having a client like this is so hard it like calls everything into question. But you know, you're approaching this with like, a good heart and a good you're you're trying to do the right thing. And ultimately, in both of these cases, this is not it's not about you, so So anyway, well, it was awesome talking to you.

24:23

Thank you so much. Thank you, Boris. You know, I and I just want to say that your horse has been so helpful for me. I've taken over many workshops that deal with creativity. But this is the first one that helped me like I was just like, I just don't know how to do the money.

Annemie Tonken  24:41

So helpful. Oh, good. Well, I'm certainly glad to hear that. And I want you to keep me posted and let me know what happens with this. All right. All right. Rachel, thank you so much. I hope you have a great day. You too. All right. Bye. That's it for this week's mini mentoring session. If you've got a problem or issue in In your photography business that you'd like to have featured on the show go to this can't be that hard.com/mentoring and use the form to submit your information I can't wait to hear from you