Outrider riding event route notes & recommendations
You should be able to edit this document directly! If you aren’t able to, send Maxwell an email at maxwellb@cascadebicycleclub.org.
Table of contents
Outrider riding event route notes & recommendations
Chilly Hilly on Sunday, February 25
How to use this document
Route development
About a month and a half before each event ride there will be an open period when we will have a draft route and notes and recommendations from Outriders (especially those who live in the ride in the areas in question) is extremely useful and appreciated.
- The cut-off date for adding notes & recommendations is at the top of each event ride section in the table of contents below.
- Please use the Suggesting mode when adding your notes and recommendations on the route.
- Before you add a note or recommendation please read through the current notes and recommendations to make sure you are not adding a duplicate. If you would like to add a comment to a note or recommendation just add a sub-bullet to that item and remember to add your name at the end of the comment.
- Add your name to the end of each item that you add so that we know who to ask for more information or clarification.
- Please add your notes & recommendations to this document before the listed cut-off. This gives us time to chat with you and adjust the route according to your recommendations before the maps are sent off to the printer.
- The name of the producer for each event ride will also be at the top of each event ride section. Before they finalize the route they will read through all of the notes and recommendations added to this document and they may reach out to you to ask more questions about your recommendation or note of concern.
Route pre-ride
Many of you already pre-ride the routes, so about two weeks before each event ride please add your pre-ride feedback to the Pre-ride Feedback section below. Like in the Route development stage having feedback from Outriders immediately before we mark and sign the route is extremely useful and appreciated. The event ride producer will check this document for feedback notes before finishing the route markers briefing document.
- The cut-off date for adding pre-ride feedback is at the top of each event ride section in the table of contents below.
- Please use the Suggesting mode when adding your notes and recommendations on the route.
- Before you add a feedback note please read through the current feedback notes to make sure you are not adding a duplicate. If you would like to add a comment to a feedback note just add a sub-bullet to that item and remember to add your name at the end of the comment.
- Add your name to the end of each item that you add so that we know who to ask for more information or clarification.
- Please add your pre-ride feedback notes to this document before the listed cut-off date. This gives us time to adjust the route markers briefing document before they go out and mark the final route.
- The name of the producer for each event ride will also be at the top of each event ride section. Before they finish the route marking briefing document they may reach out to you to chat with you about your pre-ride feedback.
Priority colors
Blue
Low priority notes or recommendations should be colored Blue - these are changes that you would like to see, but they won’t affect the ride much either way.
Orange
Medium priority notes or recommendations should be colored Orange - these are issues or changes that will affect the ENJOYMENT of the ride for the riders.
Red
High priority notes or recommendations should be colored Red - these are issues or changes that will affect the SAFETY of the riders on the ride.
Including photos and Ride With GPS routes
Sometimes the best way to explain your note or recommendation is to add a photo or copy the official route in Ride With GPS and edit it.
Photos can be added at the end of your note or recommendation item below.
Links to Ride With GPS routes can also be added at the end of your note or recommendation item below.
Chilly Hilly on Sunday, February 25
Route
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/38637983
Event producer
Alison Pringle Alisonp@cascade.org
Post-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider post-ride debrief meeting.
- Recommended a short-cut sign on Baker (for a shorter, less hilly route option)- mile 20.1 - put a sign that if you continue straight instead of turning right to climb Baker Hill, you will rejoin the route at Lynwood Center (mile24.6) a very short distance away.
- Outriders should be sent down the short-cuts to ensure that those riders have assistance.
- A number of riders had smaller water bottles and were out at Eagle Harbor. Maybe watch for smaller single bottles at stops and encourage refills.
- Potential second mechanic or additional resources at 5 mile spot (Rolling Bay)
- Modify route to include Pia the Peacekeeper wooden sculpture.- Marlene suggests putting this as a point of interest on the map and encouraging people to check it out on their own as running the official route there might lead to crowding.
- Possible shortcut map provided to outriders in print in addition to printed official ride map (Jessica M)
- Don’t run out of sandwiches plz. Was definitely not the last people but was gone.2024 the battlepoint rest stop ran out of bread fairly early.
- Placing the outrider box at the bag drop just off the ferry landing would be very helpful (cynthia Clemens)
- If possible, might be good to station mechanic where the bag drop was rather than at the finish line (the REI tent was at the finish) for when the ferries unloaded (Marlene)
- I was able to find the Outrider box on the truck at the lunch stop but unfortunately there was no label on the side/end of the box so had to move other boxes around to find it as only the lid was labeled and it was covered up. it would have been helpful to have it labeled on the end/side of the box for quick find- (Cynthia Clemens)
- Ferry issues with where to park bikes on return trip. Many parked their bike near the aft of the ferry and ferry workers were frustrated and upset because they felt that cyclists didn’t listen and obey expectations. (dan c.)
- Consider a method to communicate the Outrider box location at stops? Could it be added to the CalTopo map as a pin, or announced during an hourly announcement? (Ryan B)
- Ran out of P&B sandwiches at rest stop early on unfortunately. Many riders were unhappy with this! (dan c.)
- Have a ham at ride HQ with a radio. Laptop can display locations of SAGs for ride leaders. Having a radio listen-only to SAG traffic might be a help if no operator is available. Dave Wilma
- Have SAGs carry supplies for outriders. Dave Wilma
- Rely more on mileposts in communications. This off-islander is not familiar with all the location names. Dave Wilma
- Renting commercial radios would be expensive and will not be as effective as the ham system. FRS radios are cheap and do not require licenses, but their range is shorter. Perhaps useful for outriders in the same vicinity. Outriders should stop to talk on the radio. FRS radios are great for short distance like the four people too far apart to shout. Dave Wilma
- Can the SAGs be on the Zello channel too? Dave Wilma
- Zello has a tracking feature https://blog.zello.com/location-tracking-app Dave Wilma
- If an outrider needs a transport, how about calling the help line at ham net control directly? Dave Wilma
- Could an outrider tail the last rider? SAGs tail those riders now, but it’s tricky following them with a vehicle. SAGs burn a lot of gas searching for them and then leapfrogging as they make it to the finish. Also, if the last rider takes a shortcut, that clears the rest of the course (at least down to the next-last rider). Dave Wilma
- Send messaging ahead of the day to remind people to get bike maintenance
- Remind riders it’s not a closed course, open to vehicle traffic, lots of curves and blind spots! (Jessica M)
- Agreed with Jessica and add emphasis on ‘NOT Closed’ course and to not stray into oncoming lane. (Troy M.)
- There is a need to address Zello use and the number of unnecessary announcements. It is hard to attend to so many alerts. (Cynthia Clemens)
- Please put a marking on the road at Eagle Harbor NE around mile 30 not to use the bike lane that comes in on the right on the downhill. It ends very abruptly on a downhill, forcing an awkward merge into traffic. Shouldn’t be used. Maybe also note as a hazard on the map. (Marlene)
- In 2024 around 12:30 there was no flagger at the bottom of Baker Hill where it meets Crystal Springs (mile 21.7). There is a stop sign at the bottom of Baker, but no stop for vehicles on Crystal Springs. Need to make sure riders stop at the bottom of the hill before making the left onto Crystal Springs The road was marked with the word “slow” but I think there should have been a person there as well - there has been in the past. (Marlene)
- Please mark the short cuts better. The map shows the short cut at mile 19.2 - left onto Lynwood center. After that left, riders need to make a right onto Bucklin, then a left onto Blakely and then rejoin the route with a left onto eagle harbor (mile 30.8) Put the names of the roads on the blow up on the printed map and on the ride with GPS route put in more information on the “I” bubble about the turns after the first left at Lynwood Center Road. Also make sure the route markings / road signage are clear and consistent (Marlene)
- Was told that the shoulder on High School Road isn’t great, but that is a clear potential short cut that would be hard to get lost on. Turn left onto High School Road (there’s a sign there that indicates this is the way to “city center”) at mile 17.9 - continue about a mile until Grow avenue, Right turn on Grow and then straight down to the finish. I will have to try this out sometime. If you continue onto the roundabout at Madson (instead of turning right down Grow to the finish) and do a 270 in the roundabout (or third exit) and continue just a bit, you can visit the Pia the Peacekeeper Sculpture before heading to the finish. (Marlene)
- I got to the end shortly before 2pm and learned that the chili feed was only for prepaid riders (thankfully I did). Not sure what happened by the email from Cascade just the day before mentioned it being available for purchase $11 on site. I saw a few riders turned away. This seemed like a bad experience. (Bob)
- Need official traffic control off of the ferry, specifically with crowded first boat
- With regards to ‘Devil’s Dip’ climb traffic control immediately prior to Battle Point rest stop - (note - this is referring to is Arrow Point Drive NE - around mile 14) would it be possible to put some signage and/or cones to ‘help’ keep riders in the proper lane and not oncoming traffic coming down the hill blind? Also, is there signage at the top for drivers heading down the hill to indicate cyclists on roadway? I didn’t notice if there was or not. (Troy M.)
- At mile 14 (same location as above - Arrow Point Drive, A.K,A Devil’s Dip) there needs to be traffic control prior to the ascent of the hill. It is a log jam and there is potential for vehicle/rider interaction. Many riders were in the opposite lane trying to pass the slower riders and walkers up the hill, creating a dangerous situation. (dan c.)
- All of the incidents were at the very end as we expected, and a few were at a “bump” on the shoulder. If we can look along those shoulders and find “bumps” and paint them when we see them just so that riders see something, I think it could be very helpful. (Greg Rajkovic)
- Brief SAGs on safe operations while assisting riders. Some advice from PD would be useful (my PD training is dated). Dave Wilma
- here's an idea combing a fundraising opportunity with reducing those on course issues:
- How about holding a Tune Up Day, with volunteers like Outriders and others, at Cascade HQ, where riders planning to ride Chilly Hilly but who haven't ridden their bikes in months can stop in and have an amateur but experienced volunteer give their bike a once over?
- The once over could be free or involve a nominal charge like $2, and if issues are identified they can take them to an actual mechanic or ask us to do our best right there on site for a further nominal fee.
- Many of the issues we saw this year would have required a new chain or new tire, so perhaps the stock of used tires and maybe even lightly used chains (people that have upgraded from 11 to 12 speed for instance) could be available.
- Something like this could even involve folks like Leo and Rob Snyder who no longer wish to actually ride the events but have vast experience with solving mechanical bike issues.
- Could do another session in the weeks before STP too.
- (eugene)
Ride for Major Taylor on 4/21
Route
Event producer
XX - email
Pre-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider pre-ride debrief meeting.
Post-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider post-ride debrief meeting.
- Need more Dan Henry markings the last 1.5 miles to the finish. Some riders were confused/lost.
- Route should be swept of glass/debris…it was really bad on the short route around Barton & 26th
- On the short route a Dan Henry pointing forward into Lincoln park for the “Gravel” route. There is a fork with a climb that might confuse people as it looks like it leads to a gravel trail
- We did not solve the railroad problems with the rerouting this year. I support the idea of a south King County route, but going through the Tacoma industrial area plus two ferries breaks up and delays riders too much.
- I would advocate for a route that perhaps goes east instead of west. Take folks into the Kent Valley, then up along the Duwamish, and connect into the short loop route from there. Two Points and a Levee might be a good alternative.
- I've ridden over the Fishing Wars Bridge with Patrick Allen, and lived to tell the tale. It is closed indefinitely while its load rating is being re-evaluated. It is unclear why a few bicycles at a time would constitute a difficulty. This could be a substitute if we wanted to keep the original routing across Vashon.
- May want to consider going to Vashon first, in a counter-clockwise route, to avoid so much ferry delay problems.
- CalTopo QR code on the outrider box was helpful.
- In the Google doc please include clickable links for Zello channels and CalTopo maps. QR codes are useless if I'm already on my phone as my phone can't parse QR codes from Google Docs. Result: I had no CalTopo map for the entire ride. Only had Zello as it was the same channel as for previous rides. (Joseph R)
- Zello and CalTopo emptied my battery in about 20 mins. Quite possible this is a phone hardware issue on my end, but usually my phone has 5+ hour endurance under reasonably heavy usage. (Joseph R). This is Anita and it did that on my phone, too. Luckily, I can plug my phone into my ebike to keep the charge.
- Dan Henry markings through South Park were fresh and clear. Unsure if they were refreshed the night before, but very good result. (Joseph R)
- I think we should want to minimize the chance that riders will detour through railroad property, especially to cross multiple live rail lines. Crossing multiple rail lines is a known hazard. Crossing at a place other than a crossing is a known hazard. The RMT course was continuously blocked by a train for more than 75 minutes by three (two?) trains; combined with ferry schedules, that could encourage riders to take risks with train safety. (I note that this crossing has been on the RMT route for at least the last three years.) I was not on the RMT Route Planning committee, so I apologise if some of my comments rehash issues that have already been investigated.[Erik N]
- Per WAC 480-62-220 Blockage of public grade crossings:
(1) Railroad companies must not block a grade crossing for more than ten consecutive minutes, if reasonably possible. [Erik N] - The problematic crossing this year was on Milwaukee Way approximately under the Lincoln Viaduct. This is crossing #852 612 Y. This crossing is managed by Tacoma Rail. (At least one of the trains had Union Pacific engines, however.) Per a sign next to the crossing, Tacoma Rail can be reached at 877-811-8180 to report a “malfunction.” Tacoma Rail’s tower can be reached at one of (253) 502-8867, (253) 396-3290, or (253) 396-3291. Further, this year’s RMT course passes directly in front of Tacoma Rail’s operations center at 2601 State Rt 509 N,
S Frontage Rd, Tacoma, 1.9 miles away from the blocked crossing. One approach for next year could be to reach out to Tacoma Rail proactively or in the event of a blockage. [Erik N] - The rail lines that blocked us cross Milwaukee twice. The second crossing (#852 643 X) is just north of where we turn onto Milwaukee from Frontage, was on the 2024 RMT course but not the previous two years. The same contact information as above can be used for this crossing. Also, blockage at this crossing could be detoured around on Port of Tacoma Rd. and Marshall Ave, as with the 2023 RMT route. [Erik N]
- It’s possible to detour around a blockage at #852 612 Y (as well as #852 643 X and several other crossings) via Port of Tacoma Rd. and Lincoln Ave. There are several rail crossings that could cause blockages on this detour, but my guess from looking at a map is that it is unlikely that even multiple trains would simultaneously block both the 2024 RMT route and a detour route via Frontage and Lincoln.
Further, blockages in the Port of Tacoma are driven by ship and drayage activity, which is predictable. In this case, I suspect that trains carrying cars from a RORO to the Marshall Ave Auto Facility may have backed up multimodal trains headed to the Pierce County Intermodal Yard. I‘m just guessing, but my thought is that ship call and drayage schedules are set well in advance, so Tacoma Rail should be able to tell us ahead of time what rail patterns are likely to be like. So, it may be possible as early as Friday or maybe even Tuesday before the event to call up somebody at Tacoma Rail and find out what’s likely to happen where on Sunday. I would think that Tacoma Rail might be interested in helping to minimize the potential for conflict between their tracks and our riders, especially since a train on their tracks appears to have been wildly out of compliance with WAC 480-62-220. Maybe there was a good reason for that train to block an intersection for over an hour, but that’s all the more reason to think that such blockages should at least be predictable if they aren’t preventable. [Erik N] - At #852 612 Y, there are three plausible local detours: (i) Through the rail yard; (ii) via the rail access road NW of Lincoln and over the Lincoln Ave Viaduct, as several groups of riders did this year; (iii) Via the substation access road SE of Lincoln.
- Personally, I think it’s important to discourage riders from detouring through a railyard. Like some riders, I’ve been around trains and might have detoured through the railyard if I’d been by myself, but even one of our riders making a bad choice in a railyard could be a disaster.
- The substation access road is very nice and would even be a plausible standard route, were it not for two gates that Tacoma Power more than likely keeps locked on Sundays. Would they be willing to unlock them for us?
- The rail access road is an actual road with MUTCD signage and crosses rail lines only at signed crossings, but about 0.2 miles of this route is gravel.
As I previously mentioned, it’s also possible to detour around a blockage at #852 612 Y via Port of Tacoma Rd. and Lincoln Ave, but riders stopped at #852 612 Y would add 3 miles to their route, which might be pushing it. In contrast, detouring onto Port of Tacoma Rd. from Frontage Rd. and continuing to the Lincoln Viaduct via Lincoln would add only 0.2 miles to the route. [Erik N] - View of detour looking NE from crossing #852 612 Y:
- Alternative detour:
Note: Alternative Detour requires the south gate to be unlocked at an absolute minimum. Better if both gates are unlocked.
- Timeline of crossing blockage:
09:41 Mike DK @ Milwaukee & Lincoln: “Train delay.”
09:46 Blaine N @ Milwaukee & Lincoln: “Train blocking route.”
09:50 Blaine N @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : “Riders attempting to go over Lincoln Overpass.”
09:51 Claire P @ Ops: “They’re big boys and girls, so they’re on their own.”
10:15 Claire P @ Ops: “Outriders, let us know if the train has cleared.”
10:18 Jackie L @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : “Still waiting for the train.”
10:20 Bob L @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : “Almost cleared.”
10:20 Maxwell B @ Ops: “Precision scheduled railroading.”
10:24 Bob L @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : “There’s a second train now, not moving. Crowd is taking the detour.”
10:25 Claire P @ Ops: “Which detour? There could be several.”
10:27 Bob L @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : ”Over the overpass towards Lincoln Bridge?”
10:28 Claire P @Ops: “It’s not sanctioned, but people (including Outriders) may do what they do.”
10:31 Bob L @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : “Yup, going on Lincoln.”
10:39 Steve D @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : “We’re stuck. Is there a workaround?”
10:40 Claire P @ Ops: “You’re welcome to take matters into your own hands.”
10:41 Bert H @ Milwaukee & Lincoln : ”Train is blocking. 15 riders stopped at the crossing.”
10:48 Erik N @ Lincoln Ave at Marc Ave (phone to Ops): “Group of riders back on course. Should I go back to direct remaining riders?” (Response: ”No.”)
10:52 Claire P @Ops: “Two trains now blocking. Please use Lincoln Br. for detour.
[Erik N]
- Tacoma Rail contact info:
www.tacomarail.com/contact-tacoma-rail/Signal
Malfunction notification, available 24 hours
(877) 811-8180
Tower operations, available 24 hours
Line 1: (253) 502-8867
Line 2: (253) 396-3290
Line 3: (253) 396-3291
Railroad operations, available 24 hours
Phone (253) 396-3161
Tim Flood, Terminal Superintendent
(253) 502-8675
tim.flood@cityoftacoma.org
Matt Newberry, Terminal Manager
(253) 502-8255
mnewberry@cityoftacoma.org
[Erik N]
- Ran out of fried chicken 😕 [Bob L]
- In retrospect, we Outriders should be in front of the crowd when train clears to help with the traffic flow. Lots of riders took the left lane for quite a long distance and blocked the cars behind. [Bob L]
- On short course, the left turn at McDonalds onto S 96th was well marked in the turning lane but could use one (or more) in the right hand lane to move people over there. (Jimmy)
- The two bike shops listed on the short course were not really available. Westside Bicycle didn’t open until noon on Sunday well after the riders had passed. Alki Bike shop at the top of Admiral junction would be way too far off course unless a real catastrophic breakdown. They too are not open until noon on Sundays. (Jimmy)
- Please consider some more Gluten Free and Dairy Free options at the finish line as I was very hungry and could not eat anything and the fried chicken was gone when I got there. (Jessica)
- Example (replace)
- Need to add the ride info for upcoming Emerald City Ride 5/5/24 I added a section below for it, FYI any user can do this too (E Cho)
- We were definitely short on tables at the finish line for both the food and the participants. But we made due. Major Taylor ride always a fun one! and thanks for the Ezell's!! (Eric Hauter)
________________________________________________________
Emerald City Ride on 5/5
Route
https://ridewithgps.com/routes/45821653
Event producer
Alison Pringle
Alisonp@cascade.org
Pre-ride feedback
- I can’t make the pre-ride meeting so I’m putting my comments here. I’m told all route markings for the season are to be in Pink, which could lead to confusion with the Major Taylor short route markings in the same vicinity. I haven’t looked to see how similar or dissimilar to two routes are, if they are identical no worries, if not, I’d consider adding a Green Emerald inside the Dan Henry circles to differentiate them. That can just be a diamond shape, nobody will complain about that. (E Cho)
- The Outrider Coordinator should consider giving constant audio warnings on the SR-99 and West Seattle Bridge closure times. I supported the Providence Bridge Pedal event in Portland where I-405 is closed off for bikes and they also had a deadline there to open back up to cars, the lack of ability to let us know what that status was led to conflicts with ODOT and police when we still had disabled riders on the highway and they wanted to open back up. (E Cho)
Post-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider post-ride debrief meeting.
- [I won’t make the post-ride debrief. Takeo K.] The hill was too strenuous for many, especially those riding slower. And steep wet downhills were dangerous. Should have forced slower riders to turn around and head back on the Alki bicycle trail back to the bridge. I recommend just not including such a hill for future rides given the general nature of Emerald City Rides. Or perhaps set a cutoff time to allow stronger riders to go up (beat the hill cutoff of 9AM!) but have later riders turn around.
- Have riders take the flyover at Alaska way to Atlantic instead of crossing the train tracks. A freight train stopped there for a while and the police directed people to this route. Or at least prepare this as a possibility in case of train activity (Sal P)
- Ensure roads/shoulders are clear of glass/debris. Glass on Barton & 26th was there during RFMT and was still there causing flats for ECR. (Anita)
- I’m working tonight so may not hear the whole call. I wasn’t clear where the turnaround point was for the short route. I saw people with bib numbers as far as Lincoln Park headed the wrong direction back toward Alki. (Jimmy)
- Just a general question what happens to peoples bikes if they are transported by ambulance? Does a sag vehicle pick it up and where do they bring it? If they are going to a hospital, I can’t imagine the finish line would be the best place for their bike. Does it get transported to Cascade Bike Club for pick up later? (Jimmy)
- Good point. Sometimes
- I can’t make the post ride meeting either and I agree with Takeo about removing those climbs and descents for this type of ride.. I’d also move the rest stop from Alki to Lincoln Park (maybe even at the Troll site) and also make that the turnaround point for the route. For those riders seeking additional miles, I’d suggest taking the route down the Duwamish Trail Instead of coming back across the low bridge and then use the First Street Bridge instead, or even go all the way over to the Mountains to Sound Trail and bring them back across the Jose Rizal Bridge and then through the International District.. (E. Cho)
- On the short route, there should be better marking on the route back to the swing bridge to avoid entering the BNSF yard. The gate was open and I saw at least 1 rider enter there. It can even be seen open on Google maps street view (Sal P)
- The downhills in the wet on concrete roads (with pronounced joints between the concrete pieces) were especially treacherous. Saw and heard several near misses as people tried to cross into and out of the bike lane and caught the side of their tires on the joints. (Alicia)
- Potholes on the way to and on the West Seattle Bridge were well marked, but potholes later in the route were not marked at all.
- Agree with others who have said that the hills in the 2nd half of the long route were too much for this type of ride. Many people were struggling, and most had not studied the route to know that the hills were coming. Also encountered a few police flaggers between miles 10-15 who wanted to know how many people were still climbing - it seemed they were not getting updates, possible communication gap? They were all polite and friendly, though!
- Example (replace)
Flying Wheels on 6/1
Route
Post-event Rider Support Reports Map
Event producer
XX - email
Pre-ride feedback
- Can one outrider trail the last rider? SAGs have done this, but it is tricky in a motor vehicle. Knowing the last rider will help rest stops demobilize. Dave Wilma
- Could the Outrider team reach out to the SAG team through Alan Jones, jones83alan@gmail.com? We would like to coordinate before the ride. Dave Wilma
- SAGs will be broadcasting locations by call sign at APRS.FI, no license needed to view.
- Most SAG cars were able to be added to the CalTopo map
- Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider pre-ride debrief meeting.
Post-ride feedback
- I think I heard over Zello that some outriders weren’t showing up on Caltopo - maybe a quick class/demo is in order? (Anita E)
SAG Net had similar issues with SAG APRS. Yes, training. (Dave SAG Net) - When there are 46 Outriders, 8 medical riders and 11 support car drivers, I suggest that those SAG vehicles should not be randomly roaming the course with no idea where each other driver is. When you have that many on-bike support personnel, I think each car should be staged at intervals along the route, so that no location on the route is more than 10 minutes from a SAG. As the ride progresses, the cars which are in the early section of the route leapfrog forward and close the gap intervals such that by 2 PM no spot on the route is more than 5 minutes from SAG. With that many riders, let them be the first interface with riders in need, cars should only be responding to either Outrider or direct rider calls for assistance (Eugene C) During RSVP 2024, we leap-frogged SAG vehicles and it worked very well. We should adopt this model for all rides. Am I correct that there were ham operators helping this time? If so, it might be that they aren’t trained as well as our regular SAG volunteers. (Anita L)
See my suggestion below about having Ops answer the help line (Dave SAG Net) - Every SAG vehicle needs to have the capacity to carry at least two riders plus bikes and ideally four, SAG 5 in 2024 was a very small hatchback with no bike rack, essentially useless unless it was only one rider who didn’t mind leaving their bike behind (Eugene C) Having a bike rack or a truck should be a must. (Anita E)
- I’ve personally ridden Flying Wheels so many times I have no need or desire to ride the entire route, every year, I’d be happy to just patrol a loop like Snoqualmie or East Lake Sammamish Drive next year. IMO this ride is a prime candidate for that concept. If we stage 3-4 riders in Snoqualmie then the fast riders who get there early in the ride aren’t fending for themselves and the faster Outriders up there won’t be overburdened. Having 2-3 riders patrolling East Lake Sammamish would remove the need to keep riders at the finish line in reserve for more duty after they have just ridden a century (Eugene C) - Agree strongly with this recommendation - this route has several known "trouble spots" that we could definitely target (Marlene)
- For rainy/wet conditions I really think they should consider Claire Petersky’s alternate route from the Issaquah plateau down to Lake Sammamish, it's much less steep and has much lower traffic. I get the thrill of the reward of a fast downhill after grinding through Issaquah, but when its wet that’s the wrong kind of thrill IMO. (Eugene C)
- Edit the rogue/misplaced route point on Highway 202 right after the roundabout at the top of the hill. There was a marking for a right turn and it confuses riders. The route marking might want to guide riders to the bike path, but riders take the road primarily and I’ve seen lost riders doubled back on SE 69th. (Emily PH) I was wondering about that, too, but stayed on the road. (Anita E).
I was stopped here for an hour, dozens of riders made the right turn but missed the sudden left onto the trail and road down 69th confused. Recumbent and tandems could hardly make this turn. But even worse, dozens of riders slammed on their brakes or yelled at their friends who went straight to stop and turn around. (Brian C)
- Add signage or road markings to tell riders to slow down on downhill of 212th way SE and before the intersection with E Lake Sammamish Pkwy (Emily PH)
- The entire course is on public roads, so we can’t cut off riders, all we can do is end support for them, which of course is a bad look and worse PR. (Eugene C)
- There wasn’t a clear Dan Henry if at all on the roundabout just past the falls, and several riders turned right across the bridge into Fall City (Ben T) Neither Snoqualmie nor North Bend was very well marked IMO, I’ve ridden that route five or six times and still got off route at the Mt Si turnaround, as the Dan Henrys there were small and scarce (Eugene C) Agreed! (Emily ph)
- The dispatch voices were very clear!! Much clearer than on Chilly Hilly where we could barely understand the muffled voices. (Ben T) Agreed! (Troy M.)
- We should maybe include a note on the ride info to not be tempted to go into the middle of the bridge to take photos of Mt. Si up in the valley above the falls. Maybe we put a sign up “Take photos here” before or after the bridge at a safer location? (Ben T)
- A volunteer was stationed at mile 13.8 of 100 route, left turn onto Trilogy Parkway from Novelty Hill. Volunteer was standing ineffectively on the right - the southeast corner. This person would have been much more helpful if on the left - the northwest corner- where they could have better judged and directed riders as to whether it was safe to make the turn on the yellow arrow. (marlene)
- Roundabouts - particularly those that are approached on downhills, need to be really well marked. Dan henry’s at the start of them should show what angle you are leaving ( I’ll draw you some pictures of what I mean) and within them, you should put symbols to show continuing and possibly ‘x’’s where you should not exit. YES please
- Specifically regarding the above, please consider adding a A board with a ‘Left Turn Ahead’ or ‘Slow down, turn ahead’ indication before the 90 degree left turn in Sammamish at NE 8th St. and 244 Ave NE- it’s a slight downhill at that point and Eugene and I came across a crash there (he was okay, just broke his seat) and witnessed several ‘oh-poop’ moments of riders coming in hot and either just making the turn or shooting right by and continuing down the hill which gets steeper immediately afterwards. Many seemed to have missed the Dan Henry marks there, I did too but know the route. I’ve witnessed crashes there on past rides in dry and wet conditions too, it’s a slightly off-camber roundabout. (Troy M.) This would be a great spot for a volunteer ringing a cowbell and pointing out the turn! (Eugene C)
- As I got a late start on FW this year, I couldn’t help thinking of the hundreds of riders who had already faced the obstacles I removed from the course.
For rides where we have a sufficient number of Outriders, as seems to sometimes happen now, would it be worth considering dedicating one Outrider as a “presweep”? That is, start as early as possible (even before the official start) and remove debris from the course that has occurred overnight (or since any other course cleaning), focussing on (i) glass; (ii) fasteners, pieces of concrete saws, and other metal debris; (iii) branches and other large objects on shoulder or roadway; (iv) anything that could cause a rider to veer out of a bike lane or shoulder into traffic; and (v) gravel or other debris that could cause a spill in a turn.
I’ve thought about this for a while, and I was hesitant because the presweep wouldn’t necessarily stay out in front of the fastest riders, but on reflection, that’s not critical. For example, with glass removal we’re preventing flats, some of which other outriders would need to fix later, and at the same time we’re improving the overall experience.
This is a different sort of task, with minimal interaction with our riders and minimal opportunity to exercise first-aid or mechanical skills. Not all Outriders would want this task, and probably few would want it for every ride, however, there must be a few introverts among us who would enjoy this work at least on occasion. A strong rider would be required. Better would be two fairly strong riders who could paceline. I suspect it would be better to test this idea on a smaller ride than STP. (Erik N) Or two ebike rider(s) (Eugene C). a Sag could drive ahead. Might not see everthing you can from a bike. But can carry a broom! (Brian C) Dave Douglas actually pre-drives the course just before the event, but it's obviously not as easy to see from a car what you’ll see from the saddle (Eugene C), Agreed, pre-ride seems like a very good idea (Bert) - Possibly pre-ride the day prior to the ride in a car with a broom (Bill)
- This is a question for tubeless experts. I helped some folks with a tubeless flat. They got a patch in on the second try (good thing, as I don’t have patches and haven’t yet learned how to use them), then got the tire to seat on the first try with a CO2 cart. They reckoned they only had 40 PSI in the tire so wanted to add some air. I offered my pump but they preferred I use it, so I applied my screw-on pump and pumped the tire up. After I was done, one of the riders didn’t like how the valve core was sitting in the stem, so he messed with it with his wrench, and it popped out. He tried to put the valve back in, but it wouldn’t thread. I offered him a valve core from one of my CBC tubes, but had trouble communicating the idea that they are interchangeable. Luckily, another rider in their party had a spare stem which she donated to the other bike. I asked to see the stem that fell out, and it had a broken section of thread, possibly from being repeatedly inserted and removed, so that explains why the core wouldn’t go back in, and I think that core would have failed fairly soon anyway. However, it’s also possible that, when I pumped up the tire, I loosened a valve core that would have held up for the rest of FW.
AFAICT, tubeless cores will leak unless they are very tight, and if this is not true, it seems to be widely believed. This would explain why the only valve core I’ve ever seen with broken threads came from a tubeless rig: these cores are probably overtightened with some frequency, and consequently are damaged. One could argue that autoextracting a core under these conditions would be a safety service to the rider, but politically I don’t think that works. Would one or more of the following be best practices for hand-inflating tubeless rigs? (i) lubricate the threads of a screw-on pump; (ii) tighten a screw-on-pump firmly, to make sure the valve core is not loose; (ii) use a valve wrench to make sure the valve core is not loose prior to pumping; (iii) use a valve wrench to make sure the valve core is not loose after pumping; (iv) minimally tighten a screw-on pump to reduce friction on removal; (v) do not use screw-on pumps with tubeless rigs; (vi) carry replacement valve cores and a valve wrench and offer to replace the valve core prior to CO2 inflation; (vii) do not directly work on tubeless tires and offer riders use of a pump only.
[Ben T] - Avoid screw on pumps if you can, but otherwise I would make sure the wheel valve is tight before screwing on the pump, minimally tighten the pump, and make sure the valve is secure after. This is true whether tubed or tubeless. Tubeless may be here to stay, but IMO in the context of roadside/trailside repair we should just be putting inner tubes into these tires to get them either to the next mechanic or to the finish, If any roadside repair is going to take more than 20 minutes or so we should SAG the rider instead IMO, otherwise the Outrider will fall too far behind the pack to be of help to anyone else (other than on STP where the train of riders is effectively endless). Agree on avoiding screw on pumps, stopped using my Lezyne due to that bad design (Eugene C)
[Ben T] - I wholeheartedly disagree. We’re talking about pumping up a tire, with one type of pump. That would be the same whether it had a tube or not. Also plugging a tire is 100x faster and easier than putting in a tube. I could show you how if you’d like. Thanks, I’ve plugged tubeless holes and I’ve been an instructor for Outrider course sections on that, but I’m sure you have more experience and I would love to have you be faculty for the next one if you’re up for it! The point though is same with chain repair or booting tires, if you are comfortable with it, go for it, if not either ask for help if anyone else is nearby or just get them to the next rest stop. Also, I’ve had riders including one I was helping another Outrider with this year who THOUGHT they had tubeless and did not… when I plunged the bacon strip into the tire that the rider THOUGHT was tubeless it promptly collapsed the rest of the way, because I’d just pushed the awl through the inner tube they didn’t know they had ;-) This year the rider also thought they had a tubeless tire, but the other Outrider figured out that the rider was misinformed, since there was no sealant anywhere to be seen. (Eugene C)
If you don’t have a plug, do not inflate the tire to the normal pressure if it sealed itself, then can start to leak again. In my experience it can take 30 minutes or more for the sealant to be fully solidified in the puncture. (Bill)
- I should have made a request to the Ops Ctr team for anyone riding who had a possible solution for a broken chain early in the ride. The rider had a fixable chain if I had a 9-speed quick link, I carry a 11 and a 12, I will carry a 7-9 in future. He had already called for a SAG car when I got to him and I reported it too prior to knowing that info. He ended up getting SAGged back and I heard on Zello some folks working with OC to sort out finding a 9-speed link for him. Anyway, my point is- I wasn’t thinking about just calling it in as a ‘hey- does anyone nearby have…’ kind of thing as the SAG car was on scene already. Just a reminder that, as a group, we collectively likely have what someone may need and it may be nearby, it’s worth asking the OC. (Troy M.) The whole idea behind having a dedicated Outrider SAG car was to carry stuff for us, basically to be our “caddy” using golf terms. They could carry not just extra tubes but extra tires, sealant, an air compressor, heck, why not spare saddles and spare pedals too? I’ve donated about 15 used but usable tires to Cascade for that purpose, to be carried by our SAG (Eugene C)
At least one SAG was carrying quick links of all sizes… (Brian C)
- I find that this ride makes people think they can do the 100 and then they realize they can’t after doing 50 miles but there’s not any easy way to bike back to the start other then getting a SAG which takes SAG away from incident responses. I’m not sure if rerouting it so that it somehow loops back closer to the start before adding more miles would work, but it’s something to think about. It’s very close to STP so folks think if they can do the 100 miles then they can do the STP which isn’t exactly true. I think if people can do the 50 or 70 they can probably do the STP because those both have a lot of elevation and take a while so they can see what a longer ride is like. (Jessica M) I’d love to see the Flying Wheels route thoroughly revamped. With the Issaquah Preston trail now very rideable (it used to be chunky gravel) I’d love to see the route skip the Inglewood Hill turn and instead go all the way to Issaquah with a rest stop at the Troll, then take the the Issaquah Preston trail, which leaves an easy ride to Snoqualmie Falls from the other direction, so this would also take that trafficky climb from Fall City up to the falls out of the equation. You could still go down that hill on the return leg, and then get back to Marymoor via Duthie Hill Road like we do now. This would also take Duvall, Carnation, Paradise Valley and High Bridge Road out, all of which are full of people who do not like cyclists. (Eugene C)
- I really wish we could close the climb up to Snoqualmie Falls. I realize that probably isn’t possible, but while I was climbing it, a bunch of race cars drove up past me very loudly with a lot of backfire sounds. It was frankly obnoxious and I feel like it almost blew out my hearing when they popped the backfire next to me. There were at least a dozen of those cars on a joyride. We also got passed too closely on some of the route near Maltby and I think there could have been more bike event signs out on the route. (Jessica M)
- Maybe we can stage some flaggers/outriders for steep descents where some of the accidents happened in the rain? (Jessica M)
- Have Outrider Operations answer the help line. The help line has been answered at SAG Net Control which then dispatches vehicles. On Saturday, many calls were of the flat tire variety and an Outrider often came up and resolved the issue. The SAG wasted time looking for the rider. Several times when I was on the phone with the rider, an Outrider rolled up.
Outrider Ops can answer the phone (recommend a separate volunteer) and tell the caller an Outrider will be along, or dispatch an Outrider via Zello especially if a Med Outrider is indicated. If a transport is necessary, ask SAG net (text, phone, Zello, etc.). SAGs can pre position and roll forward without the need to patrol the routes (a safety issue IMHO) . Agree, first response to all rider calls should be an Outrider Coordinator who can then decide if SAG is needed. SAG cars should be held in reserve for those calls IMO (Eugene C) - Dispatches from Ops directly to a SAG via Zello unnecessarily delayed response times and could not be tracked by SAG Net. (Dave SAG Net)
- The SAG response to the accident seemed to go as designed, making sure the helmet went with the patient and transporting the bike to Finish. Another SAG flagged riders at the top of the hill. Kudos to Emily, et al., for being on scene as well. (Dave SAG Net)
- Set up the first aid tent earlier. Two SAGs had medical transports and had trouble delivering patients. (Dave SAG Net)
- Zello and CalTopo worked great for SAG Net. “Dropping a pin” is a feature we can add to facilitate SAG navigation to a service call. CalTopo is our go-to app at SAG Net. (Dave SAG Net)
- The issue of the hand-crank rider with a non-typical bike and physical limitations should be resolved with options for the future. It took three people to fix his tire twice (plus a mechanic at a rest stop) and there was no way for SAGs to transport the bike. The call was elevated to Ops and communications were very satisfactory. (Dave SAG Net)
- I’d love to see statistics on issues, e.g. issues solved by outrider on scene, max number of issues that an outrider has solved (who had the most and gets an award!), total number of calls received directly by riders, SAG issue solved, transfers from outrider to SAG, transfers from SAT to outrider, keeping outriders at the finish in reserve after their rides (were they used at all?) (Bert)
- At the same token I’d like to see if there if we can define KPIs, e.g. time to help arrival, number of outriders passing a particular point within 15 minutes, cluster of outriders along the course or at particular intervals. (Bert)
- If i remember correctly, right there were about 1400 riders total with about half going on the 100 mile route. We had 50 outriders, that means an outrider for every 28 riders or so. Would that be a good ratio at the beginning of the season and how does this KPI change as the season progresses?
- If we want to motivate people to finish strong the last couple of miles we might want to work with local high school cheerleader squads rather than rely on outriders? (Bert)
- Having a beer garden was a great improvement from last year. However, I’m not sure if there is an option to move it to a lawn area with trees perhaps? I found the metal bleachers a bit uncomfortable and did not stay long. (Bert)
- Limited food options at the finish. I don’t know about you but my goto meal after a long ride is often a burrito. That’s probably a healthier choice than a sausage. Could that be an option next year?(Bert)
- Was it just me noticing it or was there more talk via walkie talkie than texting on Zello on this ride? It makes me wonder if we we have a communication preference? I think talking would be preferred since it does not require looking down on the device while riding and still being able to follow along. (Bert)
- It might also be beneficial to provide the mile mark on a particular route when communicating help requests. I was unfamiliar with the route but my bike computer kept track of how far I’ve traveled already. IF provided with the mile mark within the route I would be able to easily determine it I’d be close enough to provide assistance. (Bert) SAGs would like to see the mile markers displayed on the CalTopo map. (Dave SAG net)
- I can't find where it was on the map, but just before getting back onto the busy road to head up to Snowqualmie, there was a strip of short strip of neighborhood riding, there was no road marking the final L turn before then making a right back onto the road. I had initially gone straight that led me to construction signs along side the highway and when I was back tracking I saw a few others fly by me headed where I had just returned from and I later saw them walking with their bikes along the path under construction behind the highway barricade. Also very much agree with the roundabouts being poorly marked and should have more visible signage early on. [Jodie]
Bike and Brews on 6/23
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Pre-ride feedback
- Can one outrider trail the last rider? SAGs have done this, but it is tricky in a motor vehicle. Knowing the last rider will help rest stops demobilize. Dave Wilma
- Could the Outrider team reach out to the SAG team through Alan Jones, jones83alan@gmail.com? We would like to coordinate before the ride. Dave Wilma
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider pre-ride debrief meeting.
Post-ride feedback
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STP on 7/14-15
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Event producer
XX - email
Pre-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider pre-ride debrief meeting.
Post-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider post-ride debrief meeting.
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RSVP on 8/24-25
Route
Event producer
XX - email
Pre-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider pre-ride debrief meeting.
Post-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider post-ride debrief meeting.
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WWR on 9/5
Route
Event producer
XX - email
Pre-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider pre-ride debrief meeting.
Post-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider post-ride debrief meeting.
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KCC on 10/6
Route
Event producer
XX - email
Pre-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider pre-ride debrief meeting.
Post-ride feedback
Post-ride feedback will be added to this document after the Outrider post-ride debrief meeting.
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