Season 2, Episode 24: Emergent Strategy Podcast
“Holding Change with Micky ScottBey Jones”
*Please note: these transcripts are intended to increase the accessibility of the podcast; there should be no reprinting or distribution without permission.
adrienne: Hello, beloved listeners. This is adrienne, and I wanted to give a special introduction for this next episode. This is a little different from what we normally play in this feed, but we wanted more people to hear it, to experience this conversation. So, last year, we published a book called Holding Change: The Way of Emergent Strategy Facilitation and Mediation. And in the book, there’s a piece by Micky ScottBey Jones called, “An Invitation to Brave Space.” I think it might’ve been just before the book had been sent to print and was coming--. I think it might’ve been a week before it actually landed landed in the world, I got a message from Micky, that she had been accused of plagiarism, and a lot rolled out from that process. So, what follows is that conversation. And I think it’s a really good opportunity for all of us to learn together how we navigate boundaries, how we iterate in public, how we own and don’t own concepts, and what accountability looks like when you’re not able to necessarily be in touch with the person that you caused harm to. So, just a note on this, my audio is not the best on this recording, but we think there’s enough quality for you to catch the conversation, and the most important part is really what she’s sharing; her lessons over this past year. And we wanted to share it with you all. I hope you enjoy it. I hope that you learn something as we did. Alright. Love y’all.
Micky: Yes, I wanna find a way to be accountable and live accountability. Disappearing is not it. Like, that--. We can't just keep disappearing people. (1:56) And, and I can't participate in that by letting myself disappear.
Theme Music (“Wolves” - Hurray for the Riff Raff)
adrienne: I am really grateful that you are down to have this conversation with me, and that you're down to have it publicly. You know, we've talked privately some, and so, for folks who are just joining us and they're like, what is this? You know, Holding Change came out. I did interviews, I did this whole interview series, and all the different contributors came on. And Micky, I didn't have come on at that time, because there was a controversy <laugh> unfolding with the piece that, that you had submitted to us. And I wanna--, now that we've talked--. We've been in a process--. So it's almost been a year. You know, you let me know that things were unfolding, and that there was a issue going on. And then, we've been in communication mostly through email during that time about like, okay, what do we do? What are you doing? Like, what's happening? And now, we've reached a place in that process, where it feels like at least enough has moved to be able to talk about it. And it's--, I want, I wanted us to do a live, because I feel like it's so important to model for people, like, so we're all talking about accountability, accountability, this and that. But like, what does it actually look like when you make a mistake, when you have to step into an accountability process? And what does it look like as you're coming through it? What does it look like to start to come through to the other side of it, when it's not like a neat, clean, bow tied situation? So, I think--, I have questions, the same questions that I asked a lot of the other people, which I will ask you. But I think, first, it would be helpful if you just gave a context of like, here's what happened, y'all. (4:10) You know, just how, how you wanna, what you wanna share about it. And then, I'll ask you a little bit about, you know, process, learning, conflict.
Micky: Well, you know, it's weird. All of this is very weird. Like, it--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --feels tender and fragile and sticky, like, so many adjectives. Part of the thing that's weird is, like, in the past I've been known in very particular circles, right? So, like, and generally that's like faith-y, justice-y kind of circles. And then it kind of morphed more into, like, general movement circles, right? So, like, when all of this unfolded, when I was essentially publicly accused of plagiarism, and I'll get to every, like--. Let me tell the story, but, like, not everybody saw it. Like, very, actually, I think, a kind of small percentage of the internet saw it.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: For--, for a number of reasons. One, it, like, first unfolded on Facebook and, like, generationally, who's on Facebook, who--, you know? And then, also, I, like, answered it and, and was very--, and publicly apologized very, very quickly. And, and some would say, like--. I have had people on all ends of the spectrum: like, you took way too much responsibility, you over apologized--no, you didn't say this exact thing. So that wasn't enough, right? Everybody had opinions about it. And so--.
adrienne: Yep.
Micky: But even at the very beginning, I was, like, trying to talk to, like, my colleagues privately; talk to, you know, Beth, the person that claimed ownership of a, of about a third of--, I mean, about two thirds of the words in the poem, "Invitation to Brave Space." And so, like, I was trying to go through certain channels, which means you can't answer somebody on the internet immediately, right?
adrienne: Right, right.
Micky: And also trying to process. Like, trying to go through my own, like, oh, is, is that what happened? (6:12) And, oh, what do I need to, to come clean about, and what do I need to address? And, like, trying to do all that work so it was coming from a genuine place, right? Cause I do have this kind of--, while I also over apologize or, or, or tend towards over accountability, I also tend to, like, want to only be--, like, apologize for what I know I've done, right? So I hold both of those things inside of my--. So, like, when all that's happening in real time--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --it's, it's a, like, it's just a lot to navigate. and there's no, like, right way, like, we don't know the right ways to do that. Right?
adrienne: Well, so let's slow it down, right? Cause I feel like you're--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: Because you're living in it, you're right in the middle. So, rewind a little bit to there--. Because it's actually a really--. I mean, like, we've--, you know, we're recognizing this when we were talking, It's really a story between us, too. That, years ago, I found this image of this poem that appeared to be kind of written on a door or something. And it was talking about, you know, that we can't create necessarily safe spaces for each other. That there--, we've gotta create something where that allows us to take risks. And I posted that. You asked where it was from, like, you know, you had reached out, you were like, where--, do you know where this is from? And I was like--
Micky: Yeah. Yeah.
adrienne: --this is who posted it to me, [WORD UNCLEAR]. And at that point we didn't know more than that, and--
Micky: So, what's also--
adrienne: What happened in there.
Micky: --interesting is I commented. I commented twice. I commented saying, this is what I mean by brave space! Like, I was jazzed. I was, like, it lit me up, and I also tagged, like, colleagues--
adrienne: Yep.
Micky: --like. So, for me, from, there was no, there was never this element of like, ooh, I'm gonna secretly take this and use it. (7:59) And then, I was in contact with you with like, oh, I have adapted it to what, to my understanding of brave space. I, you know, gave it this title, I really wanna use it in this work and da da da da da, and, like, was super excited and kind of--. I searched. Like I, I went to--, tried to find the person that you said posted it, and then--
adrienne: Yep.
Micky: And so, I originally put something like, I can't remember, but I put, like, inspired by an unknown author's poem. Cause I had done some, like--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --again, I added about a third more words and changed things around and added, you know, that it was about brave space and all of this stuff. And so you know, still understandably plagiarism. Like, adding a third to two-thirds more is not, like, not great. And--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: I am usually a meticulous person when it comes to quoting someone, giving people credit. And so, I don't--. I don't know what made me think I could do that or whatever--. You know, like, I don't feel like I've gotten to some point of, like, well I just wanted to be loved by everyone or some--, you know, some deep, psychological reason. It's, like, it was just legit a bad call, and it was a bad call that was made in community. Like, I talked to people about it. And so, that's why, also it didn't like, [makes alarm noises] bad thing, you know.
adrienne: And also I think people were responding to it. Like, there's something in the original piece and something in what you added that is so necessary for this time, that people were responding to it, like, holy shit, I want this. But, in that process--. Yeah, cause I think that moment of, like, when did that "in collaboration with an unknown writer" fall away, right? And I wanna name this that I often find this happens even, like, in Emergent Strategy, there's so many people actually quoted in that book. And I will see something that posted that's, like, by adrienne maree brown. And I try to grab it, and be like, no, that was Dara Ku [Phonetic]; no, that was this other person. And you know, I try to grab it every time, but I can't grab it every time. Or even, like, there's stuff that's more nuanced, like move at the speed of trust, I'm like, that is from Mervyn Marcano. (10:09) And it also seems to have shown up by, it's from these other people, and people are--, you know, the internet is a lazy space when it comes to crediting. But then really, like, it's hardcore when it's like, wait, that--, I want that credit. Like, it's both and happen. So. I wanna name all of that. Cause, even this morning, sort of separate from this, but, like, as a meme person, you know, I was like, y'all, I be posting these memes. I don't know where they all come from. Everybody's always like, where did this come from? Credit this person, whatever. And I'm like, it's the internet. I don't know where it's all coming from. And I feel like this was an early version of that in some ways. Like, this was kind of a meme initially, but, so then, this thing is spreading out. It's going viral. A lot of people are reposting it, listening to it. So, I reached out to you, and I asked if you could, if we could include it in Holding Change, cause it feels like such a fundamental way to understand what holding change is, and if you could give it some more context, right? So, you know, for me this was the part where we had to get clean. Cause I'm like, you sub-- you did. You submitted it to me. You signed a contact, you know, that this was your work. It was, you know, for us that was the place where I was like--
Micky: Right?
adrienne: And then, was it after that that you, that you heard that there was--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: The issu--, that Beth reached out to you, but Beth--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: --who neither of us know.
Micky: So, Beth reached out to me. I mean, there's, I could--, there are a lot of details, but it doesn't really matter. Eventually, Beth and I were in contact, and I didn't actually ask her to prove it. Apparently the, the wall that it was on is in a building that no longer exists. And, you know, so I didn't ask for any proof. There, there, to my knowledge isn't a digital version. Like there isn't proof per se. (12:02)
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: And what's also interesting is, like, as it rolled along, like, you--. You had no memory, other people had no memory of you ever posting it as a meme. So, it was like, it just, like, you know, we--.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: It just was such a non thing, like, because sometimes people do adapt work and add to it and change and whatever.
adrienne: Right.
Micky: Like, it happens sometimes with permission. And so I think, it just never occurred--wouldn't have had permission.
adrienne: Did y'all ever have an accountability conversation or an accountability process? Like, what?
Micky: We had a conversation.
adrienne: How far did that process go?
Micky: I was actually <laugh> like, I was supposed to have surgery the last week of June. And all of this had happened and--
adrienne: Right.
Micky: And, and it was, you know, people that loved us were, like, going back and forth on our social medias, like, Micky [WORDS UNCLEAR] no, this is Beth, she needs dah dah dah, you know, people were angry, which I 100% understand. And I didn't feel like it was my place to, like, tell people how they needed to feel. So, people were duking it out, and Beth initiated a conversation, and of course I was, like, yes, I would be happy to talk to you, like, if you're open, please. And so we had a zoom call, spoke face to face over, over video. And I, I--, and I actually put all of this on my social media and it's stayed on there. I haven't taken anything off. And, you know, we had about an hour long conversation and you know, she seemed at the time, very kind. She was, like, I wanted to have this conversation before you went into surgery so this wouldn't be hanging over your head. Like, you know, I do justice work, too. Like, this obviously has touched a lot of people. Done beautiful work. You do beautiful work.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: I want us to, to have a, have conversations and work this out. (13:58) And the agreement was I would source some transformative justice folks, some, some facilitators, and we would, and I would pay for the whole thing, and we would have, you know, a process and work through it. And, and then I never heard from her again, <laugh>. So I don't, you know, Yeah. I don't know what happened. She requested several things: that I go online and tell people about the conversation, and things like that. So I did. And I never heard from her again. I, I, I contacted the facilitators, had several meetings with them, paid them. You know, so I, I had an accountability pod just for me. Like, she didn't ask for that, but that was something that was really for me.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: And yeah, you know, and then my, the team that I was working with professionally at the time wanted to go through a process. And so, I went through a process with them. Unfortunately, it did not go very well, and we weren't able to complete a process and, you know, so I don't know how she feels or anything. Like, I don't know what to do about that--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --right, like.
adrienne: Yeah, I mean that's part of why I wanted you to, that's part of what I wanna talk about. You know, that's part of why I was like, okay, when I saw that you were posting about it, you know, that you were kind of, you--. Cause you posted about that.
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: And then you kind of disappeared, right? I feel like in accountability online moments, that's often the thing that happens, is there's this initial flurry, which, when you're in it, it's like, this is the whole world. Everyone in the entire world can see this, is watching this, whatever it is. But there's this initial flurry, and then there's a disappearance. And sometimes people come back, and we see--, and you know, come back and they're, like, that never happened, let's just move on. Sometimes people come back and it's, like, here's the thing I've done, and here's the steps I'm taking moving forward, and I, you know--. Which I feel like that's, kind of, you came back, and you're like, here's where I'm at now. (16:03) And willing to talk about it some, which I feel like I think it's gonna be very important to have, have that be a part of these cycles, these part of these practices for stuff like this, where it's, like, there's a harm that was done, There's the intentions behind all of it, and then there's a lot of mystery, right? I think, in our dream world for how accountability works, it's, like, all the are really good, and the harm was really harmless, and, like, everyone got to sit down, and it was great. And then, we all feel at peace, and here's the clear outcome. And as someone who mediates this stuff often, and still, and mostly behind the scenes, that's almost never what actually happens. What much more often happens is things like this, where threads get dropped. Things, like, where it's, like, strangers who are, like, oh, at first I thought it was cool, but actually, I'm fucking pissed, <laugh> and I need to go be--, or, you know, we don't know. It's like, anything could happen, right? But I think being able to show, like, even without the closure, like, a clear process of, like, here's the full closure, you have to move on. As a, as a human, you have to, there's still work for you to do. And the piece is still in the world. So, like, what I've been experiencing is, it's one of the most popular pieces in holding change, right? It really deeply resonates with people. And I've been, like, what do we do as, you know, what do I do as the person who published this book? And, and you know, how do, how does AK hold this? It's like, well this thing is out there, you know? And, and it's really of value to people, like, the book, you know--. There's not a way to just be, like, okay, everybody--, especially since we don't have an answer from, from her, where it's--, here's what we can do to make, make things fair or right. (18:00) So, you know, what we've landed on is that if we reach a place where we need another printing, then we'll include in there what the information is, what we know, a paragraph about it, to just give people that context, so that they understand, you know, what we think the [WORDS MISSING] of this piece is and of the work is. So, I wanna ask you now, June, 2022; what is your relationship to this piece? What is your relationship to the essay that you wrote? Is that still feeling like a part of the work that you're called to move and called to do? Like, where is it landed for you?
Micky: Well--
adrienne: Or--
Micky: I have two copies of the book, and 100% honestly, I've barely opened it, you know, because it's really--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --just really painful. Like, it's one of those things, like, now having--. I mean, I was already into it before, like, I was already looking at a lot of stuff around conflict and TJ and RJ and, like, how do we do this stuff?
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: I think when you first wrote your--, the essay that became, We Will Not Cancel Us, I, like, texted you and I was, like, adrienne, this [WORD MISSING] it. Like, it--.
adrienne: Yes.
Micky: You know? And, so, but then, when you are the person who is the harm doer or is in the center of the conflict, doesn't, none of that stuff matters.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: Like it's, you can't come to the table with, like, here's all of the things I know about conflict transformation, and you should listen to me, because people don't wanna hear it. And it's, like, everybody's too tender and, and you're also a mess. Like, I was a mess.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: I have such a deep, like, I'm an enneagram teacher, and I'm a type one, and like, I--
adrienne: Mmm.
Micky: My deepest desire in the world is to be good, and to be right, and to not fuck things up, and I fucked up, and that sucks. And like, hurting people you love, and that you've built work with really sucks. (20:03) And it's, like, that spiral, like, is tough. And so I, you know, my body flipped out. It was really hard to be present for months, and you know, so, like, there was a time when I didn't--, I wasn't even sure if I would ever use my, my own name again. Like, I was like, I'll just go by MJ for the rest of eternity. Mickey ScottBey Jones can die, like, didn't know if I could handle it.
adrienne: Wow.
Micky: Which is all my stuff and nobody else's stuff to clean up. But it's, like, it was, that was part of the reality. And so--
adrienne: I just wanna pop--, just interject there. I think it's actually really important to name that reality, because I think that this good bad paradigm, right? So you're, like, I'm trying to be good. I wanna be good. Which, I think most-- tons and tons and tons of people are, like, I wanna be good <laugh>, right? I--, first, I wanna be seen as good. And we know--. I think those of us who do mediation and, and this work are like, there's--. The good bad paradigm is actually part of the problem. Like, it's good people and bad people, and part of what plays out online is that you're a good person until you're a bad person. Until you make a mistake that people know about, and then you're bad. And I think that we don't--. Part of what led to writing We Will Not Cancel Us, part of it is, like, how do we honor, like, okay, stuff happens, but then, there's still humans doing it. Humans who have to learn from whatever these mistakes are, and only some humans get caught. Like, the thing that you did, like, I know tons and tons of people have, have done work like that, but you, you got caught in it, and then you're like, I--I'm taking accountability, but it's not a clean process, and you know, but people also step away, right? I find it to--, you know, a lot of the people that I've supported who've gone through this experience get so isolated in that moment that it's like, I've done something that I feel ashamed about. I've done something that other people are making me feel ashamed about, also. (22:06) And there's no one who's necessarily staying close in to help inter--intervene on just the shame. Cause the shame is, like--, the shame is actually keeping us from the deeper work. Like, if you go under this, it'll be like, despair: I don't deserve to exist. Everything, you know, so, we stay, it's like, uhp. You know, like, I'm gonna hit this shame, but I won't necessarily get under it to the deeper work I need to heal. And there's [WORD MISSING] to guide that. And I keep wishing--and I've talked about this before, that there was, like, circles that were, like--, we're gonna hold space for those who have caused harm to be able to look at the shame, feel what's underneath it that might have contributed to making the choices.
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: Right? Making the bad calls. Because there is something under there that's like--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: --it feels good. It it is, like, I've contributed something really necessary to the world. Like, I've contributed something that people really need, and, like, okay, I fudged it. You know, like, there's some parts of--. So, there's something in there that's like being nourished by it. And if we don't get down underneath the shame to, like, here's what's being nourished, then that part--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: --it takes so much longer to heal. It takes so much to heal. And I wanna name that because I know that that's part of what happened, and part of how I was interacting with you during that time was, like, I do wanna hold you accountable. You put my work at risk, you--, all of that is true. And, I know you to be a human being. I know you to be someone who's always trying to contribute to your community. I know that you will learn from this. I wanna [WORD MISSING] touch with you through that process. And I was really grateful to hear that you had a pod.
Music Break: “Life on Earth” plays
adrienne: Speak a little bit about the pulling together the pod. Like, how did you know that was the move you wanted to make? (24:05) How did you identify who was gonna be in the pod that you could trust?
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: And how did that process go?
Micky: Well, can I say one more thing about the what [WORDS MISSING] -ip is to the piece now?
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: Like, I reread the essay. I read, you know, all of it, but, like, the essay, you know, 100% purely me. Like, I can 100% say that. And I read it, and I was like--
adrienne: Uh-huh.
Micky: --damn, that's good. Like, I was really proud of myself, and it was the things that I deeply believe in. And I think maybe why I'm--. I mean, part of the reason--, there are so many reasons why I'm, like, yeah, I'm not just going to disappear. Like, I just, like, yes, I wanna find a way to be accountable and live accountability. Disappearing is not it. Like--. That we can't just keep disappearing people and, and I can't participate in that by letting myself disappear. Like, yeah, I could go become a data analyst and, like, never engage any of these circles again. And that's an option. And it might end up being my option. Like, I may not be able to build sustainable work in, you know, these areas again, but I can try and I can just see if there's another way. And so, yeah, I still really believe that if we can figure out how to show up and do our own work, that we're going to actually be able to make more progress together. And, like, that's how we're going to create the world we want.
adrienne: I'm like, this is the practice right now. It's like, you, you <laugh> you, you did something and then you're taking the risk of being like, I did that.
Micky: But I would--
adrienne: I did that.
Micky: I wouldn't have gotten back here without my pod.
adrienne: Uh-huh.
Micky: I didn't find the work of Kai Cheng Thom until later. But Kai Cheng Thom's work; her work around understanding the window of, of what she calls transformation. instead of the window of tolerance, like, and, and, like--, oh that's--, I, I was getting, you know, so far out of it that it was, like, really hard for me to be a full participant, and for people to know that I was really sincere, because I was, like, just struggling to survive every circle because it just, I-I was just thrown off. (26:27) My survival brain was just in alarm. And--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: So, like her, her work and, and I did go directly <laugh> to as many people on TJ, RJ stuff.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: And I, like, looked into like, like I don't know how you google search, like, what happens after plagiarism? Or, who plagiarized, and what did they do? How did they make it right? Like, I tried all the Google searches and, and learned like--
adrienne: Yep.
Micky: --no one ever admits to plagiarism. Never ever. And we have people that we know and love. Like, everyone knows MLK plagiarized throughout his academic career. Everyone knows Zora Neale Hurston plagiarized. Like, and for the most part, you ignore it. You ignore it. Like--
adrienne: Mmm.
Micky: --she died penniless. And maybe, as part of that, there were lots of other things, but, like, so, some people we punish, and they can never write again. And some people we just, it's fine. There's enough other goodness in them. And so I, you know, but I was trying to figure out, I was trying to learn from our ancestors, right? Like, and like my pod, it was a mix of people who knew me really well, like, friends, but particular friends who, like, know all my shit.
adrienne: Yeah. Yeah.
Micky: Then it was also a friend who's been in TJ for 20 years. A friend who's a, like, a peacemaker, like, literally was involved in the struggles in Ireland. You know, another friend that does DEI kind of work--like, they all did--. (28:06) A minister. Like--
adrienne: Yup.
Micky: --people who did different things, but--, and who knew me at different levels, and some of them knew each other, but some of them didn't.
adrienne: Was it you that was, like, these are the people, and here's the invitation--
Micky: No.
adrienne: --or was someone already--
Micky: Totally on my own. I followed Mia Mingus's piece on accountability pods, and I, like, made--. I, like, literally printed out the diagram and made my circles of people, and <laugh> like, went through several versions of those. And I did really want people who were gonna call me on my shit, and who also were interested in my survival. And so--
adrienne: <whisper> Yes.
Micky: --we met, you know, together. I made sure they knew everything. I was, like, you all can have all of the information you want. Nothing is off limits. And they also then attended circles with me or any difficult conversations if I felt like I needed it, which I usually did. And--
adrienne: Yep.
Micky: And they got to know each other, and they also--. Like, we had kind of a closing circle a few weeks ago, Not that we'll never talk to each other again, but I wanted to have a, kind of a, we've done this work together, and now--, you know. And so--
Adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --it was very kind of self, like, everyone was a part. It was, it--, there was no hierarchy. And so it, I--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --it saved my life. I mean, truly saved my life. I--I don't know what would've happened without it, because they just, they wanted to make sure that I, that I survived not just professionally or something, like, because there--, you know, were really difficult moments for me. And they were, like--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --absolutely not. You need to go lay down, or you need to have enough [WORDS MISSING] for another circle or whatever. And they made sure that I was surviving as well. (30:01)
adrienne: Yeah, I mean I'm really grateful for that pod. I'm really grateful you survived this year. I think that you still have a lot more that you're gonna give to the world. And even if you don't give another thing, like, you deserve to exist. You're living and learning and healing. And, you know, it does make me think. This is one of the things that I'm always interested in is, like, there's some people in the world, you know, that we call out, we do direct actions, we do this stuff, and as far as we can see, there's no intention to be good in them. And so, the shame thing doesn't really have that much impact. Being embarrassed doesn't even have that much impact. And then there are folks who are like, no, I really care, like, what people think about me; as someone who's trying to create good in the world, it really matters to me, and it can strip my identity so fully that it can put me on the verge of danger to myself. And I just, I think naming that because this is part of why I think the strategy of call outs is not actually the move that we wanna make with each other laterally or, you know, like--, when we're in the same movement spaces or where we're in a space where it's, like, I can be in contact with you. And so, because the impact of public shame on people who actually care about being a part of community can be so detrimental, I think we should be so much more careful with it. I wanted to ask you if there's anything else you wanna share about the process of the essay. You know, you said you were like, damn, this is good. Like, do you feel like there's a future in which the work of the essay could continue with you? That there's something there without the poem? Yeah. Does it feel like there's a process for this to move forward into, or?
Micky: I don't know, <laugh>, I don't know yet. You know.
adrienne: Yeah
Micky: Becau--. I mean, part of, again, what makes it tricky is what I said at the beginning is, like, because not everybody knows and there's, like, not a end point. Like, the conver--, I have the conversation again every single time someone talks about it, or I talk about it, it's like, you know, every time I interview for a job, or, if I'm gonna work with another organization, or if someone, you know, wants to hire me to come speak. Like, so, if they don't know about it, now I have to confess it to them, then that--, then they're, like, not sure how to move forward that--. (32:25) It's like such a thing that I don't--. Like, and nobody knows what's the right thing to do. So, like, elders and friends who are like, stop it, stop doing that. You don't have to apologize to everyone on the planet that you ever did a thing. And then some that are like, no, you need to lead with it every time--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --everyone needs to understand. It needs to be in bold print across your forehead. Like, so I, I'm still navigat--, and not, not only that, like, my own body reaction to, like, having conversations about something I did wrong or bad is, like, real, a real thing.
adrienne: Well, and it's also, it's so interesting because in most of the ways that we hold these processes, we're really looking for, what is the thing that's gonna make it right, that comes from the person who is harmed, right? That it's like, the person who's harmed is like, here's the boundary I need, here's the way I need you to talk about it moving forward. Here's--, or the, I want you to never talk about in moving forward, or whatever else that, that's comes from the survivor of harm. And in this case, you know, I think because you're kind of flying without that and having to source from within, that's also part of why I was like, let's create a little thing. You know, let's make something here that you just be, like, there. It's over there. Go watch that and then talk to me, because I was, like, really moved by both by the like, oh, I know--. You know, like, I've fucked up. I've done stuff that's wrong before. And, like, some of it has been in, in public or public in, in front of people I cared about. A lot of it hasn't been, and I know a lot of people like that who are just, like, ooh. You know? So part of what I was interested in is like, I felt the good intention in you. I also felt the fuck up in you, you know. I also felt the desire to make it right in you. (34:11) And I feel now the, like, question like the unknown and the unknown is the beginner's mind place, right? Where we could be, like, okay, like, this is what we know, and how we move forward from here is, like, we need brave space. We still need brave space. And one of the things I've always thought is really interesting is that the original poem doesn't have the words brave space in it. Like, that that framework, the idea, it's--it's moving in that direction, but like the, the naming of it is something that you did, and you added to it. And, yeah. I--I think, as you're living through it, living into brave space right now, the way will just emerge one step at a time, right? So it was, like, we talked; it was like, well, it feels like a good next step is to enter brave space together publicly and then we'll see from, from that space. Like I, you know, like--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: Take a while and be, like, how does this feel? Because I also know a lot of other people who have been called out, gone through cancellation, and are struggling with the same things. And I, I mentioned this to you, but my practice with when people reach out to me, like, this is going on, this is happening to me now, and I've actually had a lot of people since We Will Not Cancel Us came out, I've had a lot of people who are initially very skeptical or critical of the initial essay or of the text circle back to me and be like, it happened to me. I didn't understand. Now that it's happened, I understand in a different way. And so, I'm like, I think this is happening a lot, and I try to pair people up or connect people, you know, I'm like, you're an ED who got canceled, here's another one. And I don't know what you'll figure out together, but I do think it's helpful to be in a conversation that's, like, how often are we put in these structures that we're all navigating without a map? And then some people stumble into the quicksand and some people, you know, find [WORD UNCLEAR] and some people figure something else out. (36:07) But I think the one step at a time with any, you know, it's, like, kind of a sobriety. I don't know if that, if that feels like a case for you, cause--. And you can feel free not to answer this, but, to your knowledge, is this the only time that this happened--
Micky: Oh yeah. I mean--
adrienne: --for you?
Micky: --yeah. I've written one full book. I've been in several other books, journal stuff, like--
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: I, I know how to write, you know, never [WORDS MISSING] kind of issues with plagiarism in college or high school, anything. So, it's not a pattern.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: But it's like, some of us are gonna fuck up publicly or, and or it's just gonna become known publicly. And some of us are not. I mean, I've had a lot of people--I don't know if it's a lot. I have had people reach out to me and be, like, uhhh, yeah, I--I've done similar things, or I can imagine that something I've done would, especially now--like you were saying with meme culture, like, I've just had people be scared, either scared of this happening to them, whether it's about this or not, whether it's plagiarism or maybe I [WORDS MISSING] thing and I didn't like--
adrienne: Yes.
Micky: --fully quote the source. Or maybe it's something totally unrelated. I mean, many of us, I think, are terrified that one day something, you know, an argument with a partner that got outta hand, or, you know, and you yelled at them and said they were, you know, cussed them out of their name and whatever, <laugh> and you know, whatever. Like, people are worried that something's gonna come back from the past.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: And they're gonna get called out about it.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: And then their thing is--. Whatever they have is gonna be over. And you know, there has to be some other way to deal with people, Not people who don't give a shit, but people who really do, who really wanna, like, answer for whatever they've done, without it meaning that everything--
adrienne: Yes.
Micky: --you've done is now a pile of shit. And I felt really [WORD MISSING] about that before this happened to me. But I, I mean that's what this has now done is, like, now I wanna say that publicly. (38:10) I was afraid to say that publicly before. I was afraid to say: Hey. Y'all, maybe we should do this another way. You know, I remember feeling afraid for you when We Will Not Cancel Us came out--, like afraid, like, felt it in my body and I still was, like, yeah, I should just still be quiet, you know, and I'm not gonna be quiet.
adrienne: Yeah. I mean I think that's part of the move. You know, I'll say over these past few years for me, I've been like, if we're trying to change these entire systems of harm, and we stay quiet when our own people are being attacked without data, right? If we're like, oh, well if I don't have the whole case, or if I don't fully agree with every single thing, or if I don't fully understand it all, I'm not gonna say anything. Or even worse, if I have my own small critique of this person, which I've seen happen to a lot of our leaders, where people are, like, you know, whatever they're getting called out on is some whole other thing. Maybe it's true, not true; but I also don't agree with something about them, so I'm just gonna stay over here in my lane. And I'm, like, it's just so easy to rend a very important movement moment into these pieces that can't have any impact. When We Will Not Cancel Us came out, I was terrified. I was absolutely terrified. I felt like I had to write it. I felt like I was being pushed by ancestors and forces beyond me to do it. But I was, like, my--, this is not my brand <laugh>, or this is not--, I don't even [WORD MISSING] brand, but I'm like, this is not my way. Like, I'm like, let's all, you know, figure it out, getting along. And I was just like, no, I wanna draw a line here that there's behavior that is not up to what we need the standard to be for movement if we're trying to actually create the, the level of change we need in the timeline that we wanna create it. Because it's also--, there's something, like, every time something gets powerful and starts to have impact, that's when, you know, people can be like, oh, that person's bad, and they're like, oh, fuck it. (40:06) And it's like, hold on, like, that--. Also, none of the work is ever held by just one person. Nothing is ever even ideated by just one person. Like, I'm like, I named emergent strategy, but tons of people were doing it, and tons of people will, you know it, it's indigenous wisdom.
Micky: Yep.
adrienne: Which, I also think brave space is indigenous wisdom.
Micky: That's right.
adrienne: I think it goes back in all of us, this way of thinking and there's a lineage. So, it's like, I see people reusing and remixing my words all the time, and some times it's accurate and they just don't use my name, and sometimes they get it really off, and I'm grateful that they didn't use my name. I'm like, uuh, that's not it. But, whatever it is, it's like there's a whole journey of, like, we're in this wider field together and capitalism makes us feel like we have to own things in this very tight, credited way, but also capitalism has stolen credit from those who deserved it. It's a contradictory thing.
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: And maybe we're raising more questions and answers here, but to me it just felt important to name, like, what it feels like to be in it. Like, what it feels like to be in the questions and in a messy moment and still be a human being that has made a good offer to the world, and is trying to figure out how to move forward with that. And I do think that this is part of the path, right? I do think, like, being able to, to see a human being and be, like, it's not just, like, that plagiarist over there. You know, it's like this is Micky ScottBey Jones. She had a whole story before this happened. She made this mistake. She is examining what led to that, and as soon as she was called in around it, she acknowledged it. And she's in the process of that now. Like, for the rest of your life, this is a part of your story, this is part of what you'll be working on. And we all have stories like this. (42:03)
(40:26) Music Break - “nightqueen” plays. “You know, they call me the night queen, ‘cause I live in the dark. And I don't let nobody near me, and not betray my heart.
adrienne: I wanna thank you for stepping up and being willing to be in the conversation. It feels like part of this accountability process, and it feels like--. I hope that other people who have gone through this similar experience to you can see this and, and gain something from it. Even if it's just like, oh shit, I didn't know I could do an accountability pod. Right? I didn't understand that. Mia Mingus is someone who, like, I feel like I say her name a lot because she's given such very tangible tools. So, that--, there's a super tangible tool about the pods themselves. She also has a super tangible tool about how to give a good apology, right? Which I felt like when I read what you had posted, I was like, this feels like a really solid, thorough accounting for what happened without disappearing context, Right? Without disappearing the fact that it's, like, you know, like, I don't know this person, I don't know this process. I know that this person tells me that this is what happened, and I'm trying to honor that, and I know that this person didn't continue in the process with me, and I don't know why, right? Anything could happen. Like, life is overwhelming for people. <Laugh> Sort of like, if I, if there's a chance that I can truly be accountable, and there's a relationship here to be accountable for, I always try to opt into that. And then there's people where I'm like, you're not interested in accountability from me. You're interested in destroying me. You're interested in dismissing me, erasing me from my life. So I can't--, that's not something I'll be able to engage in <laugh> because my job is to be life moving towards life. But I think that part with the internet gets very sticky, right?
adrienne: It's like--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: --this idea of being accountable to the whole world, like, anyone who can see you and make a comment or say something about you is complex. (44:12) And I just wanna honor that I feel like you took Beth Strano at her word, and her community stood up and, and was like, yeah, you know, like, there's reason for her to be angry. There's a real thing going on here, and I wanna, you know, like, extend good energy. You know, she has total permission to never engage in any of this. Like, that's the work that she gets to do.
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: Right? Anything that we are doing here, even in talking about it that she's like, no, you know, we'll figure that out <laugh>.
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: But it felt important to say: yes, this exists, this [WORD UNCLEAR], this resource is there, the plagiarism is there, the accountability process has happened, and the work of brave space continues.
Micky: Yeah. Sorry my phone was dying. <Laugh>,I had to plug in. I mean, adrienne, there's so much that, like--. I mean, it's almost like I wanna, now I wanna, like, write about this, but that also feels weird to, like, do that. But, like, just even the ways, like, in, with, when you and I were in contact, you know, that you very clearly were, like, this is what I have capacity for and this is what I don't, You were like, I don't have capacity for talking in person right now, but we can keep going through email. You signed one of your emails to me, like, holding your humanity. And I, like, that--. I was in tears. It did me in, like, that did so much for me, like, that you weren't just like, f you, you know, but you, like, were leading with my humanity and the--, and just that you were very clear about what you had capacity for, and you still told me how you felt. You didn't try and clean it up, and you were, like, here are the practical elements, and I wanna be updated on this, this, and this. Like, I mean, obviously you had already built up some skill, and that's the thing is, like, I feel like a lot of us want this. (46:06) Want a, like, pathways that allow for people to mess up or that have messed up to do what they can to make it right. Like, we've gotten it kind of on a big scale, right? Like, you murder somebody, you go to prison--,
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: --we want a way for you to integrate back into society. But it's, like, they also kind of paid a little price cause they were in prison, and it's gonna be hard for them, but we don't know what to do with people who are, like, in our midst and do something that's kind of shitty, but, like, obviously isn't the end of the world. Like, we don't have a--, we haven't figured out how to, like, kind of bring it down; and those really practical ways that you did that, I didn't feel in any way like you were just trying not to deal with it because you set boundaries, because you were clear about your capacity. I felt, like, honored in that. I felt like you were gonna take care of you to--, that's brave space. You were taking care of you, and you were letting me take care of me, and you weren't trying to take care of my stuff. Like, no matter how, like, sad I sounded or whatever. You're like, you do, you take care of you, and I'll take care of me. And it's like, that's it. There is an underground, like, one of the things I have discovered is there is an underground of people who've been canceled, of people who've been accused of things and felt like they--, their community abandoned them or isolated them, and they are talking to each other. I was part of a Discord where it's, like, people are telling their stories, are saying, like, will you all just talk to me? Can I have some friends to go through this with? Cause, you know, varying degrees of isolation happen for people and you know, and I'm talking about people on the left who are like, I don't know how to deal. And so it's like, what are we going to do so that people don't just become, you know, like, abandoned underground and don't know who to talk to. We gotta find some way to include the people who have been accused of doing something. And of course not people who are dangerous. That's not what I'm talking about.
adrienne: The, I think this is the point to me is, like, when I say abolition, right?(48:09)
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: I mean abolition. The whole thing. I'm like this, this idea of, of prisons, of policing each other, and of punishment, [WORD MISSING] it worked to actually stop harm, like, if it worked, we would not have harm because we have the most punishment of all people, all nations, of all time. Like, we're the most punitive, and it doesn't work except to break the spirits, right? So, I feel like even in the most egregious cases, we have to figure it out. We have to figure out, you killed someone: like what is the journey by which we can figure out why that happened and how to never have it happen again, to recover your soul, and--. And something much less egregious, but, for someone it feels like, you know, I mean, I remember, I read that piece, you know, that Beth Strano posted.
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: She's like, I am so angry about this. I am so hurt by this, and it's like, holy shit! Okay, like what I did, it really hurt you, and I have to make sure to reclaim the part of my soul that was able to hurt you. And she also has to find--or she, they, I don't know--, but the--, you know, that person has to figure out, what is my process of, of getting this right? And I think this is where our movement is struggling the most right now. Both because we don't necessarily have a hundred percent commitment to abolition [WORDS MISSING] concept or [WORDS MISSING] about what we mean by it. I think people are like, um, you know--
Micky: Right.
adrienne: Abolition sounds good. I don't--. What is that, right? So, I feel like, there's, there's things where we get the language ahead of the understanding and ahead of the practice, then we're--, it's almost like we barrel through the language before we even get a chance to, like, land in it. For me it's taken a good, like, 12 year journey of, like, learning, unlearning, unlearning. (50:03) Like, I kept being like, yeah, I'm an abolitionist, and then Mariame Kaba would post something, and I'd be like, alright. What? <Micky laughs> And then I would have to sit with that, being like, well Mariame Kaba is always correct--
Micky: Right.
adrienne: So, I have to contend with that. Like, I have to contend with, like, Mia Mingus, like, I have to contend with, like, all these people that I'm looking up to and learning from are pushing that and saying no, further. Like, we meet everyone in all cases. There is another way, and it's not gonna be a top down state system. And so, then for us in the left, it's like, okay, then in a moment like this--
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: --this is actually our chance to practice. And it seems small for some people. And you know, when you reached out to me it was like, phbhh, you know, I could turn the other way.
Micky: Yeah.
adrienne: I could be really upset with you. Like, I was upset, but I--. Then I was like, you know what, this isn't even about me. This isn't per--, a personal thing. This is your work. This is something that you've gotta figure out and work on--
Micky: That's right.
adrienne: And it's something we don't structurally have figured out. And I can drop the personal out of it. I can see your humanity. And I'm, like, you're gonna learn from this practice, and whatever you learn, it's gonna be of use to the collective if you let it be. And [WORDS MISSING] right now, and I'm really grateful for the--
Micky: Me too.
adrienne: --grateful for this, and [WORDS MISSING] I'm here with you now. And I'm sorry, I just saw something went by that said my audio was choppy. Sorry about that. So, hopefully stuff was clear enough, and yeah, I--, I don't know that there's more that we need to say at this point. Do you feel complete? Do you feel satisfied?
Micky: I mean, I will say there's just one other thing that's kind of inside me about perfectionism. I think this whole thing has also completely rearranged my relationship with perfectionism. I think, before, I spent a lot of energy trying to show up perfect to--, and we do that in a lot of ways in movement, right? It's like, we have to have read all the books, we have to have known all concepts, like, already, day one, like, if you have not read every Angela Davis book, get out. (52:10) And I tried to be really perfect, right? Like never--, which actually just leads us to a lot of behavior of hiding and, like, you know, gonna make, just making sure that you never get caught doing anything that could lead you to getting put out of the village, right? So I'm not, I'm not interested in that anymore. Like, I've already been put outta the village and lived. So, like, there's not a whole lot you can do to me. People are either going to like me or they're not. People are either going to think I'm sincere or they don't. Like, there's literally nothing I can do about it, so I wanna welcome other--. Like, that's I think what I was trying to get to. And I also didn't realize, like, the somatic pieces and because, like, it wasn't until we were probably 45 minutes into this conversation, that my body calmed down. Like I, I checked my heart rate before we got on.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: And it had already gone up from 97 to 122 or something. Like, my heart rate was like, no, no, no, no, you're walking into a lion's den, like, it was freaking out, and I was working with myself, and I have so many things now that I can do to, like, ask myself, am I safe? Okay, you're safe in your body. We're okay right now. You're in your house. No one can come get you and, you know, string you up on a pole for plagiarizing. Like, I have to do that work inside myself now.
adrienne: Yeah.
Micky: And I thought I understood that before. I thought I was working with the ways I try to be perfect and try--. Even at the beginning of all this, like, literally looking up: Mia Mingus, Four Parts of an Apology. Okay, how do I perfectly apologize? And everybody will know that I'm, like, you know, I mean this, and I'm a good person, and how do I have the most perfect pod ever? Like, trying so hard. And now I'm, like, I'm not going to be perfect. And that's not how we do this together, and let's try a lot of shit and fuck it up, so we can figure it out. (54:09) That's what I'm in for now.
adrienne: I mean, this is--, this is actually the, the only way I'm able to publish anything ever, right, is that I'm like, there's a very good chance that something in this book is totally wrong or gonna [WORD MISSING] somebody, or, you know, I'm doing my very, very, very best to [WORD MISSING] like, here's what I know right now, here's everything I can tell you right now, and, you know, I'm offering with the maximum love that I can offer it. And, you know, there's a poem that I wrote that tons of people love, and then someone came, and they were like, it's ableist. And I was like, <gasp> now I, I didn't see that when I wrote it, you know, but it, it says, like, we're all walking in this way, whatever. And it's like, ah! You know? It's so important to me to be, like, I understand what I meant when I wrote it, and at the--, in the context, I was still someone who was walking easily. Am I able [WORDS MISSING]. Now I'm like, y'all gonna wheelchair me to the revolution and now [WORDS MISSING] to me. Right? But I think also that hindsight piece, it's like, we can go back and try to understand, but it's also just being with, and I think you're doing an incredible job of this, of just being like, I can't lie and pretend I figured it all out, I just know that it did happen. And I am accountable for it. And Micky, I'm so grateful that you are doing what you're doing, and that you're willing to share it. And I see the fearlessness in you, and this is how we hold change.
Micky: Thank you. Thank you.
adrienne: This podcast is produced by Mari Orozco. Production coordination is by Aliana Coello. Transcription is by Hannah Pepper-Cunningham. Music for the Emergent Strategy podcast is provided by Hurray for the Riff Raff, from their album, "Life on Earth." To support the ongoing work of ESII, make a donation at alliedmedia.org/esii. (56:10)