READ FIRST BEFORE EDIT
Basically this is what the title says: a collection of everything Sheik related.
Since there are so many good and informative posts on smashboards (most of them from KirbyKaze, lol) but many of them are lost somewhere between thousands and thousands post containing spam, bullshit, leffen, etc.
My idea was to collect all of the good posts in this document → less work (if everyone contributes) and more profit
If having this document open for everyone to edit doesnt’t work out, I’ll restrict access
also don’t forget to give credit (name of originator and link to original post)
- Tero
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Frame Data Utilt Grab
Green means shield stun
Red means not shield stun
U-tilt's second hit connects on frame 19 so that's why it's there
19 / 19 U-tilt hits (hitlag 1)
20 / (hitlag 2)
21 / (hitlag 3)
22 / (hitlag 4)
23 / 20 U-tilt
24 / 21 U-tilt
25 / 22 U-tilt
26 / 23 U-tilt
27 / 24 U-tilt
28 / 25 U-tilt
29 / 26 U-tilt IASA / grab 1
30 / grab 2
31 / grab 3
32 / grab 4
33 / grab 5
34 / grab 6
35 / grab 7 (hits)
Credit: KirbyKaze http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=293304
added by Tero
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Frame Advantage After Hitting a Shield
We could all use the actual formula
floor[(damage + 4.45) / 2.235]
Or we could just defer to the chart below
DMG (in percent) - ADV (in frames)
01% - 02
02% - 02
03% - 03
04% - 03
05% - 04
06% - 04
07% - 05
08% - 05
09% - 06
10% - 06
11% - 06
12% - 07
13% - 07
14% - 08
15% - 08
16% - 09
17% - 09
18% - 10
19% - 10
20% - 10
21% - 11
22% - 11
23% - 12
24% - 12
25% - 13
26% - 13
27% - 14
28% - 14
29% - 14
30% - 15
31% - 15
32% - 16
33% - 16
34% - 17
35% - 17
36% - 18
How to use:
With ground moves:
Fox u-tilt = 12% at full power
Hits on frame 5-11
Finishes frame 23 with IASA (24 without)
Take the hit frame you're hitting on (5) and add the corresponding frame advantage (7). Then subtract the move's duration from that number (23).
([hit frame] + [percent-based frame advantage]) - [Move duration] = Net Frame Advantage
For Fox's u-tilt at full power, this would look like:
(05 + 07) - 23 = -11
He is therefore at -11 for u-tilting a shield.
With aerial moves:
First and foremost, aerials are weird because you don't know when you're hitting with them in the air. So completely precise calculations, while possible, aren't usually gonna match exactly what's happening in a match because we don't see in frames (unless you're Sveet or Strong Bad).
Instead, you kind of get a general idea of safety by comparing the l-cancel time to the amount of shield stun you glean.
I'll use Sheik's fair as an example because I'm familiar with it.
F-Air
Total: 33
Hit: 5-7
Auto cancel: <4 11>
Landlag: 16
L canceled: 8
Let's assume full power. 13%. That means 7 frames of shield stun. So basically, if you hit the fair at ground level (lowest point of their shield) and L-cancel immediately after, you are at -1. The higher you do the attack on their shield, the less advantage you gain.
Autocancel messes with this, though, because you can also theoretically land on the frame your move autocancels (which means you'd be doing the move earlier, and reducing recovery time, potentially making it produce more frame advantage than low aerial [or comparable]).
So if Sheik hits on frame 7 of her fair, and lands on frame 11, from 7 to 11 she takes 4 frames to get to the ground, and another 4 for standard landing lag. So, 8 frames of lag total. Her fair profits 7 stun (before calculations are finished). So, once again, she's at -1.
Credit: KirbyKaze http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?t=309694
added by Tero
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Additional information about frame advantages
When looking at frame advantages, there are some important numbers that you should always keep in mind to get a better idea of the big picture. Below are both universal numbers, shared by the entire cast, and numbers specific to certain characters who are quite important in the OoS department, characters you should pay quite close attention to when attacking their shields:
Credit: bubbaking http://www.smashboards.com/showpost.php?p=15323556&postcount=12694
added by Tero
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Magus
The point where they can begin to do a different getup than stand is based entirely on the attack's launch power, which has been multiplied by their weight, so it follows the weight list in the same way.
Attacks like Peach's jab for example, which has a fixed knockback, will always allow Fox/Falco to Roll or Attack in addition to Stand on a forced getup with it, while it will always force CF to Stand regardless of what he holds/presses on forced getup. This is because the base knockback of her slap multiplied by Fox/Falco's weight puts the launching power beyond the needed amount to allow the additional options, whereas when multiplied by CF's weight the power is below the required amount.
Regardless of the options the attack's launch power allows, in order for them to get a forced getup in the first place they need to be on the ground following the attack after like 13 frames or something, which is a short animation where they lay back down following the ground hit. If they're still in the air when the animation completes they go into a neutral fall stance and simply land on their feet and can do whatever.
This is the damage they need to be at after the hit for Sheik's Needles and Jab to allow the extra Roll and Attack options on a forced getup. Below this they will always do the normal stand on forced getup.
They both seem to have the same damages so I suppose they have roughly the same power at that damage range. Non-fastfallers won't hit the ground again nearly as fast so they land on their feet instead easily when using a Jab. FFers do this too at higher damages or when they DI/SDI the Jab upwards at lower damage.
Bowser .... 45
DK ........ 44
Samus ..... 44
Ganon ..... 43
Yoshi ..... 43
CF ........ 42
Link ...... 42
Dr Mario .. 42
Luigi ..... 42
Mario ..... 42
Ness ...... 40
Peach ..... 39
Sheik ..... 39
Zelda ..... 39
ICs ....... 39
Marth ..... 39
Mewtwo .... 38
Roy ....... 38
Y Link .... 38
Falco ..... 37
Pikachu ... 37
Fox ....... 36
Kirby ..... 35
Jiggs ..... 33
G&W ....... 33
Pichu ..... 32
For the Jab, these are the faster falling and more relevant characters that don't get out of it easily. This is the percent after the hit that these characters will begin to land on their feet if they hold UP when jabbed off the floor.
Fox ....... 71
Falco ..... 43
CF ........ 33
Sheik ..... 25
Roy ....... 20
DK ........ 19
^^ If you're wondering why Fox's is so high there it's because of his fall acceleration being much higher than everyone else's.
Credit: Magus http://www.smashboards.com/showthread.php?p=5327530#post5327530
added by Tero
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Okay you guys have to understand something about the main movement techniques. The below is very general, but a good rule of thumb.
Ground movement breakdown:
Dash options > anything with jump, anything with shield, grab, dash attack, side-B. Can be canceled into a dash in the opposite direction at any point during a large window, enabling high mobility. When this window passes, the movement changes and becomes a "Run" instead of a "Dash". At this point, options change again.
Run options > access to dash cancel enables everything (semi-unique access to ground normals without walking), but requires a commitment of your character running a set distance forward (varies for character). You are also required to face forward. Immediate turn-around retreats by dashing the opposite direction after a dash cancel is tough so most people wavedash there. It is often better than wavedash when you have the distance to support it. Often used for resetting dash dance camp launch points.
Wavedash options > everything (semi-unique access to ground normals without walking) but requires a commitment (10+ frames) of inactivity the other movements don't suffer from. Allows you certain facing liberties, adds a low amount of external momentum that affects subsequent dashes and walking. Often used for resetting dash dance camp launch points. It is the only way to retreat the opponent while facing the opponent aside from empty pivots (which have a technically limiting factor and aren't much better anyway as far as I'm concerned).
Short hop options > all your aerials, DJ, DJ > WL, air-dodge, fast fall, no-fast fall, directional fades.
Walking and standing > everything enabled but has the drawback of basically getting you nowhere in terms of handling the opponent's efforts to gain a superior position on the map or relative to your character in the matchup because of how slow you're moving.
So using the above, think about efficiency. This game is about having your good and relevant options available and using them to limit the opponent's. This means that you need to be able to act cleanly and smoothly. However, we also have to respect the limitations of certain movements and rules of the game. For this reason, WD into jab is okay for tech chase because their landing area may be too far for you to be able to walk > jab but too close for dash > run > DC > jab to work. In that same vein, while I'll admit that trot > jab sometimes happens but it's usually suboptimal because it's not an option available out of the trot itself. This means I have to wait out the entire animation of the trot, which is a pretty big commitment all things considered.
So yeah, food for thought.
Credit: KirbyKaze http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-320#post-15360853
added by Tero
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Samus Matchup
Against Samus you just d-throw uair and never let her come down.
Okay, now the fluff on the Samus matchup. Since you guys like fluff. Samus's game on defense mostly revolves around WD back into normals, shield, and crouch counterattacks. Suffice to say, Samus obviously likes the ground. Fortunately, her ground game sucks vs Sheik. In terms of ground vs. air, Sheik's SH goes over a lot of her stuff when used properly (basically up angle f-tilt / f-smash and u-tilt hit you). And those three options can sometimes be beaten by the sheer priority, speed, and range advantage of Sheik's fair and bair so her efforts often fizzle just because Sheik's moves are literally better. In ground vs. ground, Sheik's ground game is obviously fine vs Samus's ground game if only because Sheik can out-camp her and has an enormous grab that does enormous amounts of damage. Sheik's shield is also very good against Samus's ground stuff, since Samus defends mainly with normals and they can all be grab-punished if not spaced meticulously (and even if it is spaced well, some of it is still punishable). Samus will try to counter this with grabs. However, Samus's grab is bad so you mostly just roll or jump on it if you think she's doing it or knee-jerk react to it. From there, enjoy your free throw.
Because of all these slants in design, Samus is largely a conditioning character and depends on making you tunnel vision on certain options in order to win exchanges in losing matchups. In this one, she's going to try to condition you to jump at certain times so she can out-time you and start combos off her fair and other garbage. This will require grabs on her part since jump is the obvious counter to her grab. If possible, try to find the tell for her grab attempt or recognize when she's in 'grab' mode. If you can discern that, you can avoid getting hit by her for stupid amounts of time simply because shield and proper movement out of it is too good.
Credit: KirbyKaze http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-319#post-15334382
added by Tero
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Doc Matchup
Keep Doc above you with uair. I would almost always d-throw > u-tilt > uair if the opportunity presented itself. After like 20, switch to uairs. Eventually fair him to get him offstage. Treat DI away like you would on Peach and fair / f-tilt mixup, sometimes illegitimate dash attack, and the chain grab at low percents (0-30? not sure). When he's descending, bair or dash dance grab. His dair has high priority below so go from the side (hence why bair is good).
In general the Doc matchup is just showing him how much longer your pokes are than his (f-tilt, fair, bair, grab). DI up on jabs and DJ the grab or d-smash follow. From there everything is gravy. Shield > WD back is reasonable, but his d-smash isn't WD OOS punishable at full power since it does ridiculous damage so just be patient vs it or get into a spot where you can outrange him more. Or jump it preemptively, or after the jab on your shield if your timing is good (since Doc's jab has terrible cancel frames).
Credit: KK http://smashboards.com/threads/sheik-strategy-qna.129276/page-319
added by Tero
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Techchase
As I have stated numerous times, I tech chase the way I do with the consistency I do because I learned where the invincibility runs out in the spacies' animations (and some other characters, over time, since low percent tech chases became important vs them but let's not get bogged down in detail) so I have a specific visual cue I look for that signals to me that I'm supposed to grab them for the tech stand, jab because I saw the green flash (indicating ground bounce), or start running because they tech rolled, and so forth. Over time, I realized that I could continue to do this but add little touches that provided protection or contingencies vs certain routine responses of the defending character without sacrificing any mental energy, reaction consistency, and so forth (spacing outside Fox's shine range to improve grab rate vs tech stand, for instance). So, really, it just meant I was making my reaction window a couple frames bigger than it's supposed to be, based strictly off the frame data.
When I practiced regularly, that was my main method of doing the tech chase with every character (I had something like this for every character I played at all). This resulted in a lot of standard positional responses on my end after throws and certain types of hits (that would produce a knockdown). This is what let me kill people in one hit by tech chasing into a launcher into a combo into dair > u-smash or something into fair > edgeguard.
However, as we all know, I'm not strategically perfect and get bored with that kind of play if it's all I do (unless it's someone I dislike or something) since I do like to guess because I like to combo and act silly. So I had to learn behavioral and habitual tendencies, which is what bubbaking is talking about (although not with much depth). On that subject, I will say that people tend to be obvious in general anyway with how they react to being hit even though they're mixing up their tech (or think they are) so this results in me getting a lot of really stupid plays. Nonsense that could rival Drephen's combo video. In general, people tend to think they're too clever.
That's not to say stuff you're talking about is not useful but I kind of expect people to notice things like that by now. It's 2013 and I learned that stuff in 2007 (and posted about it a lot). Really, it's more useful to put yourself in the opponent's shoes for stuff like that rather than record tech habits and play numbers. But that requires a high amount of finesse, so I don't expect noobs to get it.
added by Tero
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Techchase on Falcon
It's possible for Sheik to jab where you land in case you don't tech, and still techchase grab you by reaction after the jab if they time it to hit the moment you touch the ground, and no matter how you DI the throw or how you tech. However, when you land near the end of the jab's range (like if you DI the throw away), they'll need to boost grab to reach you in time if you techroll away and you have the full room to do so. They could also dash attack then instead of boost grabbing to get you before the techroll ends.
If they do this correctly, your only real chance is to not tech and escape through the jab on landing. If they don't boost grab though you can also DI and tech away then buffer a roll to avoid a grab, and DI/ASDI for a dash attack so you don't lift off the ground from it.
Starting at like 18-20% before the throw, if you DI Sheik's jab up&towards and c-stick up you finish the lay back down animation before you land. If you just hold up without using the c-stick it'll work from like 25% or something. If you manage to SDI the jab upward it'll work even at 0%.
Since you go into the regular falling animation from there if you're still in the air after it ends you'll just land on your feet afterwards and can go into whatever. When you don't complete the lay back down animation before landing from the hit is when you're forced to do a getup when it ends.
Sheik still has a good 4+ frame advantage on you if you land like that, but if they see the jab hit and then wait expecting you to begin doing the invincible getup afterwards then you could roll/grab/jab/fwd-B or something.
You can also instead doublejump right before you land if you time it well which is generally ideal, but harder to do.
I don't really know why, but you don't seem to be able to do the getup rolls/attack in addition to the stand up off Sheik's jab until he's at 42% or more after the jab (around 30% when you get grabbed). If he's at any less than that and you don't finish the lay back down animation before landing following the jab, you'll always do the stand up in place regardless of what you hold/press.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/is-there-a-way-out-of-sheiks-tech-chase.190936/#post-5258166
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I actually now believe it's realistically possible to simply techchase grab Falcon with Shiek by reaction without the use of the jab at all (in other words no way of escaping if they do it right unless you go offstage or onto a platform or something). Sheik can react to the initial left/right movement of a techroll and boost grab, and if you don't move either way then react to if that was a tech in place and grab, and if it was a missed tech they are alsoable to react to those options and shieldgrab a getup attack or standup by reacting to a length of stationary getup activity with a shield (the minimum length of time before left/right movement of rolls), or react to a roll from its left/right movement and boost grab.
The pure reaction to the getup attack is really hard to shield in time consistently though when he lands on his back or behind Sheik since it will hit sooner then, but with enough practice it should be possible for some people to do.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/is-there-a-way-out-of-sheiks-tech-chase.190936/#post-5271071
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I mentioned before that Sheik doesn't need to jab. Both his tech set of getups and non-tech set of getups can be chased by reaction. In addition to jabbing when he lands then following if he teched or get him on forced getup if they don't tech, you can also just follow if they teched and if he didn't then crouch and wait next to him and chase a roll or shieldgrab a stand or getup attack.
The only iffy thing to react in time to is his face upward getup attack where he spins since it hits in front sooner than the other one which is really easy to shield in time, but you can CC grab his getup attack till over 100 if you don't shield quick enough and it also only does about 5 damage.
I don't know about Marth, but I do know that another Falcon is also fast enough to chase grab Falcon's tech set and non-tech set by reaction the same way when right next to him, but you'd need to get into that position by the time you would react to a techroll which might not always be possible. You don't need to already be next to where they land when they start the techroll, but just be there by the time you would react to one and crouch if they don't start moving left/right after landing for their tech in place or non-tech getups.
http://www.smashboards.com/threads/is-there-a-way-out-of-sheiks-tech-chase.190936/#post-5437565
Credit: Magus
added by Tero
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Peach Matchup
Your weak ground moves suck vs her if she's any good when she's on the ground because float nair OOS and crouch cancel > lolcombo / d-smash are good. Tipped f-tilt is kind of the exception to this rule (it's vulnerable to super spaced d-tilt but only Armada seems capable of doing that consistently) but it's not much better than grabbing anyway (although f-tilting to bait a d-smash counterattack and then grabbing the d-smash lag is super pro). I have mixed feelings on the rest of her stuff but generally there's a situation where her non-grab ground game can work (d-smash to push her offstage, for instance).
Grab her as much as you can and whenever possible. Fair into grab. Needles into grab. Fair > wait for her to sidestep or d-smash > grab. Anything into grab. Grab rapes her. It puts her in the air in a comboable position.
Speaking of the air... if she's in the air just outrange her in any way that's appropriate. I like bair. Fair combos into f-tilt into more stuff at lower percents. Uair is also generally good because she's vulnerable as hell during her free fall back to the stage because bair is gigantic - overextending uair chains is often totally acceptable (and even recommended) because of this.
Her shield pressure is unsafe if she jabs (but shield-punishing it requires a decent reaction and there are small nuances to doing it). Your shield holds pretty well vs her d-smash; if you can, try to shield DI away from it so you avoid the late hits to your shield (this decreases the chance of shield stab and improves the window to WD OOS grab punish her). Her aerials' frame advantage on your shield are dependent on a mix of how high they hit your shield and how much damage they do. For instance - a high soft bair is probably punishable. But ground float nair or fair is probably not. So get a feel for it. I eyeball it now for the most part. Rolling away from her is generally good because she's slow and needs a read to catch it unless you're by the edge or something.
Shoot needles to deny turnip pulls if you're on the same plane as her. At a certain distance you can also just dash attack or grab her. If you're just barely too far to punish it directly (or your reaction is off by a bit), you can alternatively get all up in her business and wail on her with SH aerials and crap because her defensive options with the veggie are atrocious. Just watch out for umbrella OOS and turnip throw OOS and you're golden.
added by Tero
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Ground game: Sheiks ground game is really good against Falcon and something you should use more. CC is really good against some of Falcons approaches (You against Jeapie 2.17 and M2k vs Mango 7.23). F-tilt has a lot of priority and beat/trade with a lot of falcons stuff and is fast (Me against Nizro 3rd match 0.20 and 1.35 - 0.27 first match). Those f-tilts also beat nair (connect to grab) but I can´t find a perfect example on that atm. You should also use more needles they are great at rack up damage and many people start appraoching cause they are not patient enough (trust me). But be careful cause they are a bit slow so don´t use them to much when they are on close range
Arieal/Plattform game: CF has retarted priority/hitbox with that uair so don´t use plattforms much. Situation you can use plattforms is if you have Falcon on close range (m2k vs Mango 6.08) The reason why Sheiks use plattforms sometimes when falcon is close to the plattform (not under) is beacause Falcon can´t coming from more than one angle pretty much but if you stay on plattform when he is far away he can come from a lot more of angles AND your needles becomes less effective (close range =needles works - far away= not)
Both Fair and Bair is okay but don´t use those arielas more than your ground game. Bair is more safe and connect to grab sometimes. Fair is less safe but connect to grab too (Me against Nizro third game 0.09). I guess mix up between them is good but I go more for bair in generall cause it is more safe.
Dashdance: Something that is really important in this MU and this is your key to beat many appraoches from Falcon and then grab him (No example here. Really bad I only have the first set I played Sheik against Falcon recorded). This is really good but the spaceing is a bit tricky but this is REALLY good. You maybe wonder why you just can´t f-tilt from what you have read so far but this can happen (Armada vs Nizro 3rd match 2.13). Falcon can also run then shield grab your f-tilt (if you don´t space 100% correctly which is hard sience he runs into you). So mix up between those too.
Edguarding: Really important point and once he is out he should not get in. If Falcon is coming back Never use fair (Amsah vs Jeapie 2.47). Instead use (M2k vs Mango 7.28). Use M2ks example on high damage (cause you can´t combo) and dair when he has high % enough to give you a free combo. With that I mean use the dair like you does with Falco. Like you should be closer to the center of the stage after you jump from the edge then Falcon (so he can´t DI into the stage pretty much) cause this gives you a free fair or in worst case scenario bair (turn around needle cancel fair is usefull sometimes). And ofc use traditioal bair from the edge when "normal" situations comes. Next really important point with edgeguarding is staying on the ground (main key for the MU). Compare your example against Hax (1.20 and 5.06) (You against Jeapie 1.05) with (Armada vs Nizro 3rd match 3.30) (M2k vs Mango 4.57). I know you maybe say it is a bit different BUT Hax didn´t even reached the plattform so he can´t come from a angle you can´t cover with that f-tilt. Look at (Me against Nizro 3rd match 3.26) staying on the ground in those situations is really good too. Reason is that Sheik is way to Slow in the air so stay on the ground as much as possible (no plattforms is really good for Sheik but wait work on other stages too if they don´t have enough space to plattfrom cancel it you know. The only situations you should jump off stage is if Falcon is coming way to high from above to stay on the ground (M2k vs Mango 4.30).
Throws: Compare (you against Jeapie 0.40 and 2.01) with (You came all this way....) (Me against Nizro the 2 first stock 3rd match) No plattforms on those matches but I think you can see how effective d-thorw is so never use uppthrow. Falcon has the worst roll in the game so play on reaction allways and be patient. If Falcon is on a plattforms but haven´t teched and you are close (in the middle under the plattform) wait. He can´t escape at all.
DI: Really hard part of the MU but in generall I prefer DI down away from Falcons combos. Falcon seems to have a hard time to combo Sheik is you use this DI (but ofc mix up). If you have around 60 % Falcon will use upp throw and a really good thing to do is DI into him from the throw and DI away down on the uair (they will use knee if you DI like that all the time so be carefull) they can´t combo you. The reason is cause they have no speed from the Uair sience you DI into him from the throw. My experience against a lot of Falcons is why I belive this works really good.
Pressure: Falcons always use their jabs so jump is ofc not so good in any form. What to do is hard to say but I guess just wait and then try to do something but not jump out from it at least.
Combos: Except from the d-throw part use reactions. Maybe it is boring but 0-deth Falcon is so easy. You came all this way... and my 3rd match against Nizro proves a lot of reactions (and that video is really old and my Sheik is way better than that cause I used random stuff cause I didn´t know the MU really good back then). Like always wait for the roll THEN go. Falcon can´t do anything against it and it works every singles time. Wait then do normal Sheik combos. Reactions is underrated in generall but don´t use it against Falcon pretty much all the time is bad I think (okay if you have a perfect read/feeling go for it but not to often). Many Falcons don´t tech all the time so then I guess you have to go for uppsmash sometimes. That is not reaction but when I say "do that" ofc I mean in generall. Jab reset is overrated and Falcons smash DI it a lot (like a lot of exmaple excist in your set aganst Hax). A mindgame that works many times is just walking to them and pretend you are going for a jab then they smash DI and just walks up and you can grab again (use sheld if they by misstake use a button too).
Weird NTSC stuff: (M2k vs Mango 2.40) stuff like this you have to check up by yourself cause Im not so famaliar with ntsc Sheik.
Random stuff: You came all this way.... 0.28. Needles is really good and somehow hit Falcon sometimes even if he sweetspot way better than that example so if you are to far away to ht him eith anything else use that.
Matches I have been useing to help you with thise MU.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-bL_irjGpfM - Amsah vs Jeapie
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rgmHr5vJKh8 - Armada against Nizro first match (all three matches is there)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kpbCBT1TGdg - You cam all this way....
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o3CPw3Rc6hY - M2k vs Mango
Here you have it.
The last one of the videos dosen't work
The guide maybe seems a little weird but that's because I wrote it to Amsah in the first place.
Credit: Armada http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbykazes-sheik-mu-guide-postponed-indefinitely.313447/page-11#post-14876969
added by Tero
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Sheik vs Fox
I'm gonna clean this up before it's put into the OP, add some stuff on the shield game (since Sheik's shield is a strong option vs Fox but there's a lot to it) add stuff on gimping (I feel silly writing about gimping because I'm so bad at it but whatever the guide's not complete without it I guess) but here's a really rough version of the Fox section atm. Some stuff repeats. This hasn't been seriously edited yet so read at your own risk.
Hard MU. For either character. Requires a lot of self-control because he's basically always trying to bait you or out maneuver you. Even when he's in your face doing shield pressure he's trying to provoke something so he can rape you for it. This makes a lot of typical go-to defenses, jukes, and such a bit nerfed. In exchange, Fox is squishy as hell and Sheik has answers to just about everything he does.
One of many challenges Sheik faces in this one is how strict Fox can be about timings, positioning, and spacing. The fact that Sheik is airborne for a while works for her at far spacings because it grants a large window to reactively fair (or whatever) against approaches meant to go around things (dash FH stuff and anything off platforms, basically). At closer spacings, its height can be a liability (though it can work). This is where the MU is tricky. Ground stuff is generally strong vs close Fox but the fact that her ground moves are so vulnerable to crouch (or they're grab) means further emphasis is placed on creating reaction windows with movement (WD back) so you don't misstep into a dash shield, crouch, or similar. Furthermore, Fox can simply out-time your attack even vs your efforts to out-time him if he just makes a better play. Fox and Sheik, woefully, both have answers for each other.
On that note, if the Fox has weak timings, just flail and cover your retreat aerial with whatever. But good Foxes can get you for this. People bad vs Sheik usually lose to decently executed move spam, crouch grab, jab reset, Nair OOS, or b-throw. So if you suspect badness on your opponent's part, run a diagnostic for any of those (especially if you have a big lead). Sheik is somewhat squishy (she's not so much frail as she is susceptible to certain things really badly) but learning your opponents limitations is worth X% in combo damage. Sheik has a godlike disrespect game vs people that don't understand the nuances of fighting her.
Anyway, moving along to stuff that works or is true because they are factual & good. Awesomely, Fox's attack game is somewhat constricted vs Sheik for similar reasons it gets funneled vs Peach. Sheik is as heavy as Peach and carries a bunch of frame 5 crouch options (tilts and d-smash). She also has as good a crouch grab as you will get without picking Marth. She has a faster Nair OOS and WD. This means Fox has to put some effort into pressuring your shield. Moreover his shine grab isn't super scary to Sheik either - if his shine is staled once then you can Nair on it legitimately. As a frame 3 jumper, Sheik has a good OOS against shenanigans and such (Sheik is generally good vs shine-based pressure but runs into trouble when people try to fish for her OOS jump stuff [or shield grabs] 'cuz, again, duration of a Sheik jump is long). Sheik's defense comes with other limitations too - ever notice how people don't generally avoid approaching Sheik the way they do Peach? This is because Sheik's attacks generally have percents where they go "online" whereas Peach's stuff generally works at any percent. They also require hit confirms & some vague amount of reaction to follow up on whereas Peach's hits hit hard immediately. Why is this important? Psychology time! The focus when being attacked & defending is more to break the attacker's stance - not so much comboing (people drop combos when they're trying to regain footing or are staggered way more than when their stance is proper). Being able to combo perfectly when staggered is a power only Armada and 2K7 M2K really seem to have - it's very rare to be able to punish perfectly, regardless of pressure & where your focus is.
This means that, though Sheik can crouch into counterattacks effectively, her counterattacks (minus grab, kind of) have limitations. Foxes that understand this can be pretty bold about what they do sub-30% so long as it handles grab and grab setups decently (which can have varying levels of difficulty, depending on the Sheik's handler). Anyway, point is there's a rough 30 percent or so on Fox's fresh stock and Sheik gets better as Fox eats damage - Fox improves a bit but mostly stays about the same regardless of Sheik's damage (he picks up some auto-death combos at some point and at like certain percents he can be more bold with sex kicks vs grounded Sheik). The first 30% can be really rough without a good grab because trading is really strong for Fox (14% average move vs 10% average move) and he's better at getting his low percent BnB combos (does Sheik even have really sophisticated low percent BnBs on Fox? Most of her stuff is freestyle or reaction d-throw regrab IMO) started because of dair, shine, generally higher BKB moves, and u-throw.
Because Fox will want to avoid your naked grab as much as possible (especially at low percent) we need to know what he's going to do and how to counter it. This can mean setting up a grab or just taking the stray hits the anti-grab strat leaves him open to. The ball's really in his court on this one - trying to force it into Sheik's is going to go badly.
Fox's anti-grab movement...
A simple grab avoidance strat is to play platforms and to play mostly bait-oriented. Fox is probably the best at this style of play. That said, Sheik has answers. Aerials, especially bair, are strong vs Fox because their range & priority enables them to out-space Fox's legs. You're rarely going to be actually chasing Fox up to the platforms with this or try to intercept his movement path directly - that's very dangerous because even slight timing or positioning changes by Fox can ruin the strategy. Instead you're usually going to counter-bait and try to make him fall on top of it. Going for uairs to start combos can be worthwhile but the narrow hitbox and vulnerability to slight position changes makes it dangerous (although not going for them period can also be a mistake because they're her best combo starter vs platform camp after 20%).
Against more conventional Fox play (with the ground, dashing, jumping, etc), fair and bair are still very good at low percent. Done properly, both can be used vs CC with reasonable success. With a proper reaction & the right spacing / timing mix, SH back fair can interchangeably beat SH and FJ aerials by Fox. Bair is obviously strong vs Foxes that play above Sheik and is useful for the range (low bair > dash away is very hard to punish directly). That said, they also require a jump commitment - this means that they can be stuffed if the spacing is even slightly off and then you're in the air with Sheik being comboed by Fox, which is where Sheik is most vulnerable - Fox's ability to launch her in tons of combo situations coupled with her defensive mix (low priority below, light-medium weight, semi-FFer) often makes her combo food. That said, spaced fair & bair are solid low % damage tools. They sometimes can illegitimately lead to grab too (fair > grab is a classic). There are also some legitimate grab setups off them on airborne foes too, which is dandy.
At low percent you can do a good amount of stuff with needles. Hitting him with a full set if he commits far away helps get him to the magic 24% (use if he's camping or trying to do a juke or bait from the top platform to the floor on a larger level like Battlefield or Dreamland). Descending air needles can combo into grab (obviously useful). Finally, lingering needles can be used to control space in an odd way. You can put needles on the ground and stay behind it (usually you shield or WD back if they come in at that point). If Fox's attack touches the needle, he hits it and goes through hitlag. This extra lag usually nets a free hit (likely grab) and makes his aerials shield grabbable (which is rape). It's a good tactic for keeping breathing room or funneling approach options to certain spots (or even getting grabs on inattentive opponents).
You're going to want be really good at reacting to approach cues. A common misconception is that Sheik works in neutral on prediction. She can, I suppose. But she benefits tremendously from you constructing parts of her defense more reactively - attacking their attacks when they commit (or can't deal with the attack well) and otherwise maintaining a strong posture & defense. Being able to recognize Fox's commitments during FJ stuff makes it way easier to counter - if you can't, you're liable to be raped by his "vertical dash dance" (his variable DJ game is really strong - one of his best tools vs Sheik and many other characters).
Tilts deserve a note for low percent play because u-tilt and f-tilt have some situational uses even before they produce knockdowns. U-tilt, because of it's ludicrous IASA frames following the 2nd hit, is a reasonable option vs Foxes that play directly above. It's one of the more legitimate ways to combo him into grab at this percent. However, it often trades with his more priority aerials (bair, nair) which can be dangerous. That said, it can beat either with better positioning / timing and the super low KB on both hits gives it odd interactions with SDI, fast-falling, platforms, and shines. So it's far from 100% reliable even if it can lead to incredibly convenient plays (leading into grab can often solve the low% problem or even kill Fox outright). Finally, f-tilt is an okay choice if Fox SHs a lot because barring an SDI you can often f-tilt, stun him long enough to be forced to land (giving him 4 frames of inaction as he lands, plus whatever f-tilt did). By forcing Fox to do this, you create a window to grab his landing (which can be really powerful). That said, at the sub24% range, f-tilt (overall) isn't nearly as powerful as it gets as the stock unfolds and fair > f-tilting blindly will get you killed by counterattacks at low percents. Follow fair baits & protections with movement at low percent (most of the time).
D-smash sucks until 18-20% or so. Period. Unless you can hit multiple hits of it (near the edge, backwards d-smash, other janky things, etc). When it forces knockdown it's main uses are crouch option, combo finisher, and combo linker on staggered foes. It's also good at punishing misbehaviors with the tech window - you can often follow up on non-teched d-smashes with dash attack, grabs, or even more d-smash (shoutouts to Drephen).
General defense stuff:
You're going to want be really good at reacting to approach cues. A common misconception is that Sheik works in neutral on prediction. She can. But she benefits tremendously from you constructing her defense more reactively - attacking their attacks when they commit (or can't deal with the attack well) and otherwise maintaining a strong posture & defense. Being able to recognize Fox's commitments during FJ stuff makes it way easier to counter - if you can't, you're liable to be raped by his "vertical dash dance" (his variable DJ game is really strong - one of his best tools vs Sheik and many other characters).
Dash attack gets its own section.
A lot of people, I feel, struggle with dash attack placement. Partially because they misunderstand it. To clarify, dash attack has a small series of hitboxes above it - not in front. Dash attack is solid for sneaking below moves but bad for challenging them head on (it can lose to virtually anything if it doesn't out-time them). This makes it's only merit an approach based on its high horizontal attack space stuffing moves. It's not awful, but it's undeniably flimsy (especially when compared to the rest of her). If you really must dash attack approach Foxes, it can work... but understand even her grab (and nair) covers her front better than dash attack and Sheik-savvy Foxes basically always accommodate that lunge into their defensive spacing - so you need to catch them off-guard, which is hard.
Moving on - aside from awkward, spontaneous approaches, dash attack is primarily used for combos and to lag-punish with its crazy lunge & attack speed. It can be used to cross up shields and bait OOS actions that barely whiff (excellent vs low range chars). Strong option at 20%+. Its main shortcoming is its weakness to ground tech on grounded foes so mix it up with grabs and tech timing punishes (when possible) to discourage such behavior.
Brief talk of combos...
In general, your combos on Fox are going to set up their finishers by a mix of throw, tilts, dash attack, her launch aerials. U-smash also comes up at low percents. Dair is a very strong option whenever possible because of the lower KB than uair, and the speed at which Sheik can action to follow it. Reverse hit dash attack is also important trick to know because it counters the old adage - "Just hold away from Sheik." It also opens up opportunities for very optimal combo extensions (dair & uairs).
Now, after all that prep, we need to finish. This is the easy part because she has an insanely solid, single move finisher that denies Fox precious recovery height. I obviously refer to her fair - this is what you pick fof consistency because it's easy to hit and has a consistently reliable trajectory. Flashier kill options include eeak aerial > strong aerial /d-smash. These kinds of finishers are also solid and prey on the habit to survival DI for fair (think Falcon DI traps except Sheik's less good at horizontal air combos). Finally, we have my favorite - tipped u-smash. Tipped u-smash is generslly considered a flashy, overkil choice but it has strong strategic merit beneath how awesome it is. It's essentially a attempt to plan around & counter survival efforts of people who attempt to stay mid-stage when Sheik combos them and build height. Tipped u-smash combos are usually a mesh of dash attack, dair, u-tilt, f-tilt, and on occasion uair.
Now to talk about Fox's combos...
Escaping Fox combos is difficult but doable. Unfortunately, Fox can make himself really hard to punish for misstepping or being outplayed during his punish. Sheik leaves more vulnerabilities (because she does her comboing on the ground, mainly, with ground moves). Accept this and move on - you need more precision for certain links or you'll die. Oh well. In exchange, Fox's high KB attacks often makes his extended links (barring shine and nair chains) dry up after 50% or so and this places emphasis on option covering & reading for him whereas Sheik can usually continue tech chasing or keep going with her large array of launchers.
SDI is key vs his multiple-hit moves and the shine. On drills, SDI through him if has a lot of momentum going at you. On stationary ones SDI away. If you perform a good SDI on a dair, you can often counterattack him. Grab is ideal, but d-smash and co. are easier & often just as appropriate (consistency with your plays will win you games).
On horizontal chains (Nair, Bair) it can be worthwhile to SDI in and up to force him to do a vertical combo. Your ultimate goal is to DI away on something horizontal without momentum. Even on DI down and away, because the momentum aerials track DI so well you will almost be comboed further (barring really good SDI).
<<<This space is reserved for Fox's u-throw and what you can do about his 3 main options out of it at low percent, and his 3 main options at medium percent. High percent is basically, "Attempt SDI on uair, survival DI on bairs. Don't be predictable during free-fall and see if his movement tells you anything about what he's trying to punish.">>>
On up airs you benefit from knowing a few things. One, SDIing to the side is better at low percents because his FJ height makes the uair meaty as hell, so SDIing to avoid it vertically is a horrible idea. Two, Fox has legit 2nd uair FJs if you DI the throw to the side at 80-95ish. Third, SDI up escapes works best when his uair barely reaches you (high percent). Finally, DIing the throw behind and DIing the uair the opposite way maximizes distance between you and is a pretty standard combo damage mitigation strategy.
When hit offstage high, falling to the edge with good drifting is strong. Be ready to fair shine spike attempts. You don't have a real answer aside from outranging it or air-dodging through it. You could also attempt a janky up+B. Not a great go-to (as a primary option) but sometimes viable. No lag high poofs force Fox to behave differently and often use hard moves - it's hard to shine the low landing lag version. Just beware of them u-tilting or similar - you won't get your jump back and that brings a huge risk.
When hit off low, sometimes just poising onstage "safely" is a good option because combos are DIable and losing a low percent stock is huge gamble. Pull away with your DJ to outspace offensive shine spikes. Rambo defensive, coverage strats if you can reach Fox - if not, use your best judgment. A lot of people are still bad vs the double explosion landing recovery so always keep it in mind. Especially if you notice shoddy invulnerability storage. If they like to release the edge to cover non-sweetspot poof angles & landings, try very hard to get that sweetspot by any means necessary (you sweetspot by skipping the white explosion with no hitbox - do this by aiming down + towards the edge [sideways produces the white explosion]). You will sometimes be kill-maimed here but such is Sheik's recovery.
Recovering onto platforms is okay for guaranteeing extra recovery height. It's not hard for Fox to 2nd hit uair you in that position though. It also denies him conventional shine follows. Usually a good choice. Be ready for drill-grabs and other shineless setups.
Ground tech is important to survive d-smashes, helps you survive bairs & f-smashes, and is useless vs shine, uair, grab, and u-smash. Strong normal DI & SDI can often suffice until very high percents (except vs d-smash, which can loop vs Sheik at really dumb percents if you can't ground tech it because of the trajectory).
Edgeguarding for Sheik on high Fox recoveries can be treated similar to how she swats them in the neutral. Jumping and aligning yourself with them is a good cover for illusions - just bair or nair if you hear the 'ding'. Then follow up until they're sufficiently dead.
Unfortunately, onstage strategies like this that counter the illusion defensively can run into issue with firefoxes. There isn't a perfect answer. You can still usually cover a good chunk of his options by waiting & hitting him out of high trajectories with bair or whatever (I sometimes go for combos because if I hit him before he lands you just need to combo a jumpless Fox to take the stock). And you can cover lower ones by protecting the edge.
If you recognize the firefox quickly you can rambo him with fair or RNS bair too - this is good because they're big moves and the closer you are to Fox's firefox you are, the more his options shrink (angles don't shift his position as drastically). Because of this, many players (M2K and myself included) often take to ramboing him offstage as the default. However, Fox falls faster than Sheik and RNS bair has startup so he may slip by with illusion. Or jump out of your bair's reach and firefox. If you notice him doing that or going low to counter aggressive aerial, abort the mission. Grab the edge and do a typical ledgehop bair edgeguard (or similar) until he's the appropriate amount of dead.
On low recoveries, weak ledgehop bairs and needles cover so much it's dumb. You can do other stuff like... let Fox pass the lip of the stage in some positions (harder though 'cuz Fox sweetspot technology is strong) and time charge d-smash, fair, etc. but bair & needles will cover 80%+ of low recovery situations. Fairing him into the stage is okay at 37%- or so (when fair puts them below 50% there's not enough KB to let them tech it, and it forces them lower than weak bair, so it's a really strong tool).
If Fox likes to hover just above Sheik's height offstage, or around Sheik's height, be ready to tilt, d-smash, nair, bair, or needle the action. This may sound dumb, but d-smash hits low. A lot of the time they're trying to go above that move specifically. Also, f-tilt takes time to reach its full vertical swing - for this reason, alternatives like nair and such are good to keep in mind. Needles vs needle-height opponents (or those going for the edge) are less good than they used to be in 2008 or so because spacies have gotten better at SDI up into illusion / air-dodge but all that means is throw a bunch or make sure you can follow up on it (I needle > jab > d-smashed Mango to counter the SDI once - there are other options too). Like with high recoveries, be ready to switch to offstage rambo mode if they firefox (or pick between covering the edge area or covering the free-fall zones if you recognize the firefox too slowly).
Run off DJ (sometimes delayed) nair can be a good generic cover for a bunch of stuff. As always, picking up on habits makes this much easier. And remember Fox wants to screw with your timing as much as he can - be ready for stalls and low dives. Stalls can be countered by skipping the DJ and falling on top of him. Low dives are beaten by aborting and turning it into a basic low edgeguard.
I do not endorse the chain for anything. Especially edgeguarding. It's vulnerability to SDI hurts it more than most realize. Moreover, there are more effective ways to edgeguard for damage that also often lead to kills (dair comboing a jumpless Fox is really easy).
added by Tero
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Knockdown % vs Fox
Tumble hitstun AKA knockdown %'s against Fox with Sheik's relevant moves as determined by KirbyKaze. NTSC is assumed.
Fresh = never landed any hitbox of the move within the last 9 moves used.
Stale = hit with the move in all 9 stale moves slots. Just an upper range on when the move would knock down if you were really spamming it.
Percents are for BEFORE the move hits. I didn't do decimals because that's horrible/useless and would take even longer than this already tedious task.
[table]Move | Knockdown (Fresh) | Knockdown (Stale) | CCing Knockdown (Fresh) | CCing Knockdown (Stale)
Dash Attack (Strong) | 20% | 24% | 61% | 66%
Dash Attack (Flub) | 59% | 62% | 114% | 117%
Ftilt | 24% | 27% | 80% | 83%
Utilt (Hit 1) | 43% | 47% | 85% | 88%
Utilt (Hit 2) | 63% | 65% | 123% | 124%
Dtilt | 40% | 44% | 103% | 106%
Fsmash (Second hit) | 16% | 21% | 76% | 80%
Usmash (Weak) | 7% | 13% | 41% | 47%
Dsmash (First hit) | 19% | 25% | 61% | 67%
Nair (Strong) | 35% | 41% | 66% | 72%
Nair (Early Flub) | 55% | 60% | 97% | 101%
Nair (Weak) | 62% | 66% | 107% | 111%
Fair | 39% | 45% | 72% | 78%
Bair (Strong) | 26% | 32% | 57% | 63%
Uair (Strong) | 21% | 26% | 51% | 56%
Uair (Weak) | 37% | 41% | 75% | 79%
[/table]
I didn't do Fsmash 1st hit because it never tumbles against any character unless they're currently charging a smash and are Fox's weight or lighter (lol), where it tumbles at 0% because it's set knockback. If you want tumble % for if you hit with both hits of fsmash, subtract 4-5%ish from the % listed.
I didn't do other variations of Bair because that move has literally 7 different possibilities for knockback values and I'm just not doing that. LOL.
If I were to do this against another character/for another character, I'd make a spreadsheet specifically for it. Doing trial and error with victim damage for everything was very tedious. x_x It took me like an hour.
credit: Strong Bad http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbykazes-sheik-mu-guide-postponed-indefinitely.313447/page-11#post-14932806
added by Tero
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vs Jigglypuff
A word from the author: I skimmed the Sheik board today and noticed people answering questions about this MU and several others. Since discussion seems to be shifting back into something I somewhat enjoy, I decided to craft the second MU for my guide. Falco is put on hold because I just learned a lot about fighting spacies that I wish to incorporate into his section and Fox’s section. Fox is on hold for a similar reason.
On that note, since Tope is leaving us to become an American pirate (and he’s perhaps the one of the only other Sheiks in the universe who I think is actually good at this one) I figured I’d give you guys something to chew on while I’m banned. This should cover most questions of the MU.
This part of the guide is strictly for NTSC.
All numbers are ‘before the hit’.
1. Background Information
This MU has a lot of history to it. In earlier times, this MU was considered easy for everyone’s favourite ninja. But the past few years (2009 onwards) have been a very interesting time for SSBM. M2K unveiled his super tournament-threat Sheik. Armada showed prowess on the national scale by taking second at Genesis with the Peach that changed how over two-thirds the Melee population looked at Peach. And we discovered a second heavy tournament-threat Sheik in Europe, something that we haven’t had in ages.
All of these were then stopped by the most hardcore pudding-pop diva-bunny ever. The aftermath was staggering. Numbers were tossed around haphazardly. Some claimed the Sheik Puff MU was horrific whereas others made excuses for inexperience. Whole regions began learning secondary characters in an effort to counter the jiggling menace. It was a very strange time. Nowadays, it is generally agreed upon that this one isn’t so grim. There is not yet a solid consensus on who has the advantage, but the strategy is at least beginning to be settled.
This is perhaps one of the most irritating characters Sheik faces for a variety of reasons. The constant proximity of death makes this a challenge that punishes you very heavily for slip ups – whether they are errors in tech or poor decisions. Many of Sheik’s time-honored advantages evaporate in the face of a character who resists combos, edgeguards, gimps, and whose range compares to yours. But Sheik is still a threat in this one if you understand Puff’s limitations, and she comes with needles. Even in our crazy Melee universe, sharp objects are still good against balloons.
2. Mechanical Information
There’s a lot of mechanical and technical information vs. Puff because her character design is weird and has all sorts of little gimmicks and nonsense.
Shield Counterattacks:
Are almost totally worthless vs Puff's aerials. It's stupidly easy for her to avoid it because of crouch, aerial mobility, range, etc. So unless they give you a cue that nair OOS or whatever will work (crossing up, being in the air forever, etc), then don't bother. Puff can decide for Sheik's nair OOS and shield grab to suck pretty much at will. So yeah, usually they're gonna suck.
Rest and Death:
DI Rest to kill yourself if you’re over about 10-15% (depending on stage and positioning) so you can punish her for hitting with it. This is important so Puff does not use Rest to cover too much ground either getting ahead or coming back when she’s at KO percent.
To get a feel for survivability, at the edge of Pokemon Stadium, up tilt Rest kills Sheik at 0 (according to M2K, who I trust). Use that as a general base as to whether or not it’s worth attempting to DI to survive or not. Generally it won’t be, but surviving rests when it’s appropriate to do so will prevent you from losing games.
Teching vs Puff:
Sheik has wonderfully huge tech rolls so tech rolling is actually really good against Puff. This forces Puff to take preemptive actions to cover multiple options or far techs, so if you can spot her cues (as to which she’s covering) you can often get out for free, which is great.
With non-tech options, rolling into her is absolutely horrible because it’s the easiest thing for her to react to and rest. It can be tempting to go for getup attacks to try and shake her, but be wary of rest OOS and her ability to fish for it with her DJs. Standing and moving away from her are probably going to be your best bet (usually).
On platforms it’s a bit different. Something you’ll notice is that in certain positions, Puffs like to down throw Sheik because if Sheik DIs anywhere but away, she can be directly comboed or rested. So it’s often used in certain positions where DIing away will put Sheik on a platform. In these cases, Puffs are usually looking for tech stands for the rest because they’re the fastest option. Try to observe which way the Puff is committing with her jump and trick her with a tech roll. You’ll sometimes get caught anyway and die, but the biggest mistake players make in this situation is limiting their tech selection to the stand; make Puff work to kill you.
Puff Crouch Mechanics:
Puff’s crouch mechanic vs. grab – Puff’s crouch will dodge Sheik’s dash grab and standing grab. For the first 10+ frames (not sure the exact amount) of her crouching animation, Jigglypuff sits still and you cannot grab this. However, after that period, she begins to fidget about at set intervals. While she is fidgeting about, you can dash grab to overlap her head and nick her.
Ground needles work similarly. You can shoot her with sets of ground needles when she fidgets, but not when she’s simply crouching. You need a bunch (3+) because the needles shoot low every third or second needle (forget which). Single needles will still miss.
In order to connect aerial needles > grab on her crouch, you require to connect minimum two needles during descent. The timing is fairly tight. You can practice this by setting a CPU Puff to crouch in training mode (calibrate the stick ‘up’) to get a feel for it. It is a reasonable trick. I do not recommend using this as a rest punishment (as many have suggested in the past) because of the versatility of the full needle set as an edgeguard, zoning tool, and combo finisher (which is worth more than the 6-9% extra from a needle grab setup).
Puff’s crouch vs. dash attack – Surprisingly, dash attack is one of the moves I like most against Puff’s crouch. Though risky, it’s a reasonably good trick if used correctly (and sparingly) for racking damage and even scoring kills vs. her duck.
At 50% (or so) your dash attack begins to knock her over. Knocking her down and down smashing isn’t a bad play by any means for racking damage.
At 80% (or so) your dash attack begins to launch her, in spite of her crouch. The reduced KB (because she was crouching) keeps her from drifting away too far. Tight timing is required for you to follow up on it (the stun is also reduced) but you can combo to fair and uair off this. At 90%+, it’s feasible to kill her with this (so I don’t really recommend you do it below that percent if you can help it, except perhaps on Yoshi’s Story).
At about 120% (or so) your dash attack begins to kill her on most stages (not Dreamland) if she’s not crouching (dash attacking beneath her bairs and such for a KO is not a terrible idea).
Rest Punishes:
These are fairly optimized AFAIK. There’s probably room for improvement but this is what I got so far. I do other stuff sometimes but these are tried, true, and work.
At roughly 75% on standard ceiling heights (BF, FD, FoD, PS) it is optimal to simply fully charge an up smash and KO her off the roof (from the floor). You will have to fiddle for more exact percents.
If she misses a Rest on the platforms of neutral Pokemon Stadium, you can tipper up smash her feet (her feet stick through the level and extend her hurtbox going down). On Yoshi’s Story’s side platforms, you can tipper up smash beneath her if she’s on the half of the platform closest to the center. It kills on Yoshi’s Story (fully charged) at something ridiculous (maybe like 23?).
If those options aren’t available you’re probably going to fully charge needles and then either SH an aerial (dair or uair) on top of her or do a down throw combo.
At 18% your strong up air (assuming full power uair) will knock over Jigglypuff if she attempts to hold down on it. This allows you to follow up with a down smash (even if she techs; if she tech rolls then you can dash attack or unload the set of needles and take the damage). If you’re ballsy, you can attempt a jab reset (which works if she continues to hold down on it, but if she doesn’t then you lose the combo). If she does not hold down on the up air and gets popped up in stun, you simply follow with more aerials. If you’re lucky, you might get a second up air into another aerial. You’re more likely to simply get a nair or fair, however. Do the up air as low to the ground as possible for this to be effective.
Dair functions similarly except it knocks over closer to 40%. Do the dair as low to the ground as possible to maximize your ability to dash after her DI (if she DIs away) so you can follow. This punish is effective up to about 60% or so.
If you are worried about platform interference with your jumps or whatever (relevant on YS and FoD) or simply want to do something easier, a simple d-throw combo (any fast aerial, probably fair or uair) will also suffice and do comparable damage. The main benefit to hitting her high as possible is positional, however, since Sheik likes to threaten with bair and needles as Puff is coming down. This is why the low uair and dair combos are good.
Throw Combos:
You can always link uair after you d-throw Jigglypuff. Below about 20% it's better to fair if she DIs away from your d-throw. However, around 20% the uair opens up a few options you don’t have otherwise (namely a second aerial, and the option to protect her landing area with needles or zone with bairs). Fair is still really good, though and easier to hit (if you mistime the uair you can be rested and it’s a fairly tight timing if they DIed the d-throw away). For non-lethal percents, pick your poison.
D-throw > up air kills her on away DI (on both the throw and on the up air) around 85-90% on most standard levels (not Dreamland, which is about 100%). You can sometimes play little DI games with fair (expecting her to DI to the side to survive the up air) if you’re near the edge at slightly lower percents.
The Importance of Storing Needles:
Puff is going to be luring you a lot in this MU so charge your needles whenever nothing is going on (if you’re in a safe position to do so). They are amazing. This is why:
Offstage: having the full set of needles gives your edgeguarding a buff because it allows for better and further distance needle cancels into fairs (or more needles) because of the longer stun time. It covers a larger area for longer too, which makes clipping jumps easier (her later jumps are smaller than her early ones, so following up on the edgeguard sometimes becomes possible). Even if you just rack damage on her offstage that’s completely fine.
Onstage: they’re just nice to have because comboing into the full set of needles off your stray fairs and such adds a lot of damage. Using the needles to keep her from attempting to land on the ground (and thus forcing her onto platforms) makes it easier to hit follows and rack damage. If nothing else, it exerts a weird form of pressure on her that she either has to respect and work around or she eats a good chunk of damage. Needles are incredible. Charge them. Love them.
3. Combat Stuff
Well, that was a lot of nonsense. Let’s move onto the fun stuff. The MU actually breaks down easily enough. There are just a lot of little rules that you are expected to know, and teensy nuances that you need to be aware of in order to avoid dying an untimely death to her godlike down+B.
Puff’s Air Game:
The most important move in Sheik’s entire moveset against Jigglypuff is bair. If you learn nothing else from this guide, learn bair. The Puff match comes down to a lot of aerial spacing and movement because of how volatile Jiggs can be against everything else. Bair has a lot of important traits for interacting with Puff aerials. Its range is huge and it has enormous priority. Just about anything in Sheik’s bair space will likely be trumped by it. Since Jigglypuff likes to jump to initiate, this is invaluable. The angle that Sheik aims her leg at is important because it makes it good for moving underneath and around the moves that Jigglypuff will be protecting herself with (which will often be her own bair). By moving away from Puff, it’s very reasonable to beat non-bair aerials aimed to go under Sheik’s bair, provided you can put enough distance between the two of you.
As a bonus, Sheik's bair often combos into itself. So it's even good for racking damage.
Sheik’s bair can be used to counter a lot of Jigglypuff’s generic bair spacing. The positioning is a bit over a bair’s length away (yours, not Puff's). Crouching under Puff's rising bair (both FJ and SH rising back air misses against your crouch) and then jumping up with your own bair is a good way to counter standard FJ double bairs by Puff. Falling aerials can be reacted to (jump and bair first; you have a big speed advantage) or punished with evasion (mostly jumping over them, maybe dash dance punish if you’re really quick [don’t try to dash dance grab]). Losing the rising bair hurts Puff. Similarly, if you notice she turns around to attack with a sex kick or dair (which can hit your crouch while rising) you can simply jump away and outprioritize it with bair.
As a quick side note, the crouch's effectiveness against her primary spacing tool enables a bunch of options for sneaking around. Crouch > WD movements are a pretty good way to fish for d-tilts, which can be a reasonable way to kill her at high percents (75%+). Escapable, but not a terrible plan. Anyway, back to bair...
The amount of aerial approach space that Sheik’s bair covers necessitates that an approaching Puff attempts to play around it or get under it. She can attempt typical lag punishes (usually with evasion > dash attack or f-smash, bairing further away, and grab stuff [run under bair, block, shield grab]) but these are handled mostly by not swinging blindly when she tries to bait the bair with farther-spaced jumps, or by simply keeping proper bair distance.
If you notice Puff is retreating a lot to try and lure you into attacking her, you can just shoot needles at her. Fullscreen bair camps by Puff give you ample opportunity to charge full sets and unload them as she attempts to land; pay attention to how she spends her jumps and when she’s bairing. Challenging her airspace aggressively when she is in full retreat is very difficult. It is very easy for her to move back further, double jump out of reach, or change her position in some similar way (which leads to you possibly getting hit). Hitbox drag works very favourably for her here. Half-retreats, stationary aerials, and weaves (when she jumps forward and pulls back) can sometimes be aerialed aggressively (or even naired around). This style of play is not bad when used sparingly, but do not underestimate her ability to drift further from you. Sheik’s low aerial mobility works against her here.
Up tilt does a good job covering approaches directly on top of Sheik. Puffs often attempt to nair coming down off of platforms or after they’ve been comboed (or similarly been forced above you). It covers an area that bair doesn't.
Puff comes with a reasonable pair of sex kicks so I’ll cover them briefly. They’re not really hard to deal with relative to her other stuff but you should know the basics. You can counter most of her SH sex kicks with SH back fairs, bairs, and even f-tilts. It’s also reasonable to sneak down tilts underneath them as she’s falling with them, provided you can move back enough. It is viable to CC down smash on them, but be careful because she can poke with nair and then drift back outside of your range (although if she commits and goes into you then it’s pretty good).
Against higher sex kicks (DJ and FJ versions), just treat them like you would any other high approach. Up tilts and bairs. Not much else to say. You can fair, if you want, and it can work, but her weaving is reasonably good against this whereas it’s much poorer against your bair.
Sheik on Platforms:
I wasn’t really sure where to put this so I put it here. Platforms are kind of a weird hybrid of air game and ground game.
Platform camping used to be the best general strategy to do the MU and it’s a useful skill to have. The platform camping principle is simple: Puff is slow going up and down whereas Sheik is not. Sheik moves fast across platforms whereas Puff does not. This allows you to get a speed advantage and zone certain areas very effectively; mostly through the needle triangle.
The needle triangle is very good against aerial Puff. If Puff approaches into the needle triangle of the platform then you can actually get some very good combos from it at low percents. Aerial needle (cancel on platform somehow) > run off fair > follow (f-tilt, fair, etc) is pretty easy to land if they jump into the needle. At higher percents you can exchange the run off fair with a weak aerial (bair) and link from there. This sort of thing relies a bit on Puff moving into the triangle zone, but it’s not a bad position for Sheik defensively if you can get up there safely.
One of her main counters is to get under you and shark with uairs through the platform. She will likely do this by shielding needles and WDing OOS deep enough into the triangle so the needles miss. You can do pretty typical shield stuff (lightshield to slide off the platform facing forwards; often get a free bair this way), run off the platform, or reposition with the top platform in response but there is a danger in being above Jigglypuff for so long. Those up airs can very easily kill you. I’m not sure how the shield drop interacts with her stuff.
Another thing she might try is to aim for Sheik’s face, outside the needle triangle. This requires her to have some height, however, because Sheik is atop a platform. This can be annoying, but isn’t unbearable because you can take the ground floor in response to this, and play Sheik’s typical game with bair when she’s below Puff. You can also simply bair or fair on the platform itself, or maneuver with the top platform.
Life on the Edge:
Puff is going to want to corner you at the edge. Your shield is very important in this position. Puff generally looks for people to swing at her, so she can punish the lag and score a gimp or bair chain (which converts into a gimp). It’s not unreasonable to return to the edge and replenish your shield in the event this happens. Having proficiency with ledgedashes can give you invaluable options in this situation. Small ledgedashes are an effective way to possibly catch Puff aiming her bair further away from the edge, in the expectation that you will ledgedash deep (or roll, get up attack, deep ledgehop fairs, etc). Once onstage, you can begin a less optimal version of the crouch strategy (you don’t have as ideal spacing) or attempt to dash through her. Going on the platform is similarly reasonable, but be wary of wavelanding forward when you do so (she will try to protect that space). Paying attention to her positioning and whether she can cover that option is very important. Once you’re on the platform, if you didn’t waveland forward, you can decide to go around her or return to land (if she’s going high in preparation of you going forward on the platform) and see if you can make back ground through the middle.
It will be tempting to go for the middle with quicker, more dynamic actions (roll, waveland, etc). Wavelanding across the side platform and rolling to the middle are not terrible options when used sparingly but try to do them when Puff is committed to something else so you don’t get punished for them (particularly the roll; you can be rested for it).
Another important thing to note about being by the edge is that you will probably tempt Puff into going for grabs on you by shielding so much. If possible, try to WD back on these efforts (other actions can be stuffed by her changing her mind and going for an aerial, WD back, etc). If WD is not available because of space constraints, you may require alternative options (SH, FJ > platform, FJ > waveland, etc). Jumping OOS on attempted empty jump > grabs is also fairly good (this is also a point in the MU where sidestep has a lot of potential, though it’s admittedly risky).
Sheik’s low dash is conducive to running under aerials. For this reason, running through Puff’s aerials to reach the middle (or even just to get under her) is not unheard of. Dashing under her bairs is not a bad way of positioning yourself to attack her (dash attack, rising aerials, etc) or push her away from the middle of the stage.
When Sheik has Puff pushed to the edge, your game does not really change too much. Positioning should be roughly a third of the stage’s length from the edge (can vary, depending on how competent you are with platforms, etc). If Puff is holding the ledge, shooting ground needles as she comes up with whatever is a fairly simple, effective way to put pressure on her without risking anything. Unload, charge, repeat if necessary. However, be careful – being near the edge often makes Puffs go for riskier plays (gimmicky throw setups, Pounds, cross up aerials, etc) so be wary of these and punish them accordingly. Be patient; make her do all the work. Bairs are your friend. Pounds and b-throws are probably the most dangerous thing here, so watch for them the most. If she pounds your shield, remember that you can do more than simply nair OOS (up smash, grab, and up air OOS can all be good).
In general, if you have Puff with her back to the edge, you’re probably doing well so long as you’re not getting gimped. Puff is less troublesome when she’s pressured.
Handling Grounded Puff:
A lot of the above has mostly related to Puff when she’s in the air. Grounded Puff is a little different.
On grounded Puff you mostly want to be facing forward (if you’re intending to challenge her). There’s not really much you need to do about her ground game when she’s not crouching or shielding. If she’s not crouching then standard SHFFAC fairs are pretty effective (they need to be a bit lower because she’s short). If you’re on defense and she’s grounded, be wary of her efforts to WD into you and pierce your shield with up tilt. You can shield grab her up tilt, on that note. Her dash attack goes quite a distance too so be aware of that as an option but it can similarly be shield grabbed. You can hang outside her f-smash range pretty easily and just wait pretty effectively versus most of her ground stuff.
Her crouch is annoying, but not really that different.
On her crouch, you really only have a few options to engage it directly. Low fairs are okay; so are aerial needles. You don’t necessarily need the needles to combo into anything, but linking them into down tilt or down smash is a pretty good way to rack damage. Going for the needle grab is okay but requires you essentially be in her face for it to work and that can be dangerous (her spontaneously doing up tilt out of crouch, or moving under you with WD is a real threat). Beware of typical stuff against low aerials (her jumping with an attack, WD back > attack, etc).
Riskier options include down smash and dash attack. Puff can shield punish both of these with aerial OOS fairly easily. But they aren’t horrendous against her crouch (they have percentage restrictions so you don’t get crouch-rested; down smash is weird against shields and near the edge).
Finally, you have the option to simply not engage it all that much. This is not a bad option at all. Invoke the platform needle position. Her crouch doesn’t actually do much if you’re not close enough for it to be relevant and it doesn’t do anything against platform play. So if you decide you do not feel comfortable challenging the ducking Puff, there’s nothing that says you really have to. Charge your needles across the stage and wait, prepare to down smash her if necessary as she WDs into you, go under a platform in preparation of FJ needles > needle cancel if you want, and so forth. Make her come to you and reposition. It’s really not that bad.
All this stuff with needles, down smash, dash attack, and low aerials will likely encourage blocking by Puff. Believe it or not, you want her to block. This is the one time in the MU where it’s actually okay to go for grabs on Puff without it being some kind of lag punish or gimmicky needle setup. However, it is strongly advised you max-range your standing grab. The standing grab and range requirements are precautions so she does not get a rest for sidestepping something; if you do the dash grab, the lag makes it possible to be rested from sidestep and other OOS options. Puff crouches when she jumps OOS so max ranging is similarly important to reduce risk of rest KO and force her to punish with aerials and such, which are manageable. It is not guaranteed by any means but this system allows you to fight with a favourable risk-reward for Sheik on the table, which is rare in this MU.
Empty jump to grab is your friend. Walk forward grab is your friend. Dash to crouch or WD down (to break the momentum so you can space) grab is your friend. Give her the impression that you are going to do something she can shield-punish, or that she wants to shield, and then grab.
Edgeguarding Puff:
Shoot her with needles whenever you can. Stealing jumps and stuffing pounds are very, very important!
On high recoveries you sort of have to accept that there’s nothing you can do for sure so you just want to stay below her and threaten with whatever you can. Bair, up tilt, f-tilt, jab, even CC d-smash. Be wary of pounds. There’s not much to say about this. Sheik is one of the characters that actually can jump offstage and swing a bair at a high Puff, but it’s very risky and if Puff spots you doing it then she can usually pull back enough to avoid the bair (and possibly pound at you and kill you). That said, it’s not a bad idea to threaten with it (remember to avoid the pound!) and abort mission, grab edge, etc. If you see her attack offstage for whatever reason in your range (whiffed pound, fair, etc) then feel free to swing.
On low recoveries, whenever you can ledgehop nair a Jigglypuff into the edge and stage-spike her, do it. None of them have ever really learned how to ledge tech, so if you catch them hugging the wall (which will happen sometimes, because they’ll try to do it to make your bair soft hit) then just nair them. Beyond that, shoot them with as many needles as you can and make them drop as many jumps as possible. Needle > fair if you can. Hitting strong bair gives them height (assuming they survive it), but if they’ve lost a bunch of jumps then it’s not bad to do it just to push them away and force them to Pound a bunch to recover. Otherwise, you generally want to minimize how much height she can gain and try to choke her jumps as much as possible. Again, I stress don’t get pounded (or baired or whatever attack she swings with). It is likely that she will try and trick you by hovering just outside your ledgehop bair range; just shoot her with needles for this.
I want to stress that you be very careful with your invincibility because trades can very easily kill you in this position. Edgeguarding a low Puff recovery is hard to make lethal even if you rack a lot of damage (barring a stage-spike). If you drop an edgeguard because you hit with a poof or naired her across the stage when she air-dodged up, that’s not as bad as risking your stock because a pound traded with something. Racking damage is perfectly fine.
General trick: if Puff goes over the lip of the stage after 100% or so on most stages then it’s reasonable to just ledgehop uair and attempt to kill them. Nair is also good because of its size, duration, and how easy it is to strong hit.
Credit: KK http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbykazes-sheik-mu-guide-postponed-indefinitely.313447/
added by Tero
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vs Marth and vs Puff
For marth, working your grab game really helps. KK obviously has a very good grab combo tree that you can work on vs marths. Oftentimes getting the grab is the hard part: marths nowadays space well with late fairs and dtilts to cover their butts. Move around a lot (DD, wavedash, even rolls are okay) against marth, don't give him time to set up space with fair/nair. Your dash attack should go through high nairs and set up for some uairs.
Crouch cancel his moves! Any aerial that he doesn't tipper can be CCed. If the marth is good this won't lead to a grab, however, because they'll have pushed you far enough away. I find CC->dtilt a fairly decent option, CC ->dash attack as well, which is really good if you can consistently get it.
Never get stuck on platforms. Marth and Falcon are in a particularly advantageous position after they stick you on a platform and get under you. Try to tilt the shield down and get off the platform asap, with wavedash out of shield, shielddrop (hard), and or just jump and drop through.
Also be mindful of when you are spotdodging. Marth is weak to well placed spotdodges, since 95% of his moves are single hit, short duration moves, many of which are laggy afterwards. Most marths wait for you to do the instinctual, habitual spotdodges, and then punish accordingly. You can really throw off the marth by spotdodging upon reaction/unpredictably.
I have been losing to dart recently, but I aim to change that next tourney. I've never given much thought to the matchup, because people didn't use to be good at it, so I would just win against every marth.
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Vs Puff:
KK told me that puff has 2 main gay things he will try against you: float camping, and ground camping. Float camping with bairs is the strat that KK prepped against in the WFs set that he beat hbox in. If you go watch the APEX set again, KK uses well times dsmashes to knock him away/rack damage, as well as downtilts when he knows hbox will be DIing in so he can get the quick uair. Dthrow->uair is a guaranteed kill, even with horizontal DI away at 80-90%, just practice dash->rising SH uair.
Ground camping involves puff crouching a ton.
Be wary about grabbing puff. Good puffs crouch everything, so even though grabs are the best way to rack damage, they are also high risk. Also avoid low percent dairs, dsmashes, or dash attacks either, since they are easily CCed -> rest.
One pitfall that I see many sheiks doing is trying to defend with poorly spaced bairs. It doesn't work on puff: your bair has a blind spot between the legs that is a perfect opening for puff to stick her own back air in and kick sheik's pseudo nuts. Basically, either throw out rising bairs to catch puff on the way up, or low bairs so that her leg isn't extended for a long time, becoming an easy target for puff.
Never be directly above puff, avoid her uairs and utilts, which both combo into rests
Tilt your shield down on the ground, puff goes for 2 moves that easily shield poke sheik's legs: the dair drill and the utilt.
Same as with the marth matchup, or many other matchups: be constantly moving. You don't want puff to space those free bairs on your shield and get away easily.
And last important advice: be excruciatingly patient against puff, and keep yourself vigilant for openings. Sheik vs puff requires much innovation, since most sheiks are still bad at the matchup. You can't just play like your normal self and expect to win.
credit: darkatma http://smashboards.com/threads/kirbykazes-sheik-mu-guide-postponed-indefinitely.313447/page-10#post-14329330
added by Tero
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