An Overdue Response

Hi everyone.

It’s been over five months since everything happened. I have never been good with words, and I’m especially bad at verbalizing my feelings. I’ve always hid my insecurities, and it’s hard for me to open up about things, even to the people closest to me. It was nearly 2am for me on April 26th when Nanoless and Bao posted their documents together, after I had finished streaming earlier in the night. I was awake for almost 48 hours by the time I posted my apology. Looking back at it, no, it wasn’t good. I was not in a sound state of mind when it was written. I was blindsided by any of this coming out and the accusations made against me. No one involved tried contacting me privately beforehand. I was unable to eat, sleep, or do anything else but watch more documents and statements be released while everything fell apart. I didn’t have Red, I didn’t have my friends, but I had the weight of the entire internet waiting to see what I was going to say, and how I was going to say it wrong. I didn’t have access to search for all the evidence to defend myself with the growing list of allegations, and I didn’t have time to put it all together cohesively anyways. I was petrified. How could I possibly respond “correctly” to a coordinated effort like this in the state I was in without just blindly accepting fault for all the things I didn’t do or never knew happened. I rushed to get something out, defend myself the best I could in the heat of the moment, and post it just so I could rest. No matter what I would end up saying it would never have been good enough.

It took me a long time to mentally recover and have the ability to face any of this again. I couldn’t look at anything “Sinder” related without breaking down. All of my fans that looked up to me were led to believe I was evil, and encouraged to destroy or donate my merch. Almost everyone I knew or cared about turned on me in an instant, and anyone who’s ever had anything to say about me did. I had only one of my close friends message me after everything was out there. I received rape, dox, and death threats over these accusations. So I stepped away from the internet. I reconnected with Red and we worked things out between ourselves. When we were both ready to, he helped me with the long process of making this document. I didn’t say almost anything else to anyone sooner, privately or publicly, because no one would believe me until I had absolutely everything put together to post all at once, in one place.

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Purpose of this Document

To present the full story and the facts and evidence around what happened with complete transparency, defend myself against what’s been said about me, and provide mine and Red’s perspectives and motivations about each situation. It wasn’t my choice to make this public, but since it is, my side of the story matters too.
To take accountability for everything that each of us are guilty of in the past couple years, whether they were revealed in the original documents or not. This document will not absolve either of us of all wrongdoing, and it isn’t trying to.
Dispel rumors, misconceptions, and theories about me, show how and why things actually occurred, and point out and refute discrepancies and lies in the claims or statements made against me. We’ve done things wrong, but the amount and degree of them has been incredibly exaggerated or completely made up.

This document contains speculation. Baseless accusations were made against me without evidence, so I’ve kept speculation labeled as such in this document. Most of it is supported by circumstantial evidence, but it should not be treated as solid fact.
This document is not to fuel harassment or spread hate towards anyone involved. I am doing what’s listed above and posting this document in the same public setting the original documents were. If you have harassed anyone involved “in my defense”, you are not my supporter. Your actions are reprehensible and I’ve never advocated for anyone to do this for any reason. I’m sorry to anyone who’s been affected by any actions of rogue community members against my principles.

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I have been made out to be a two faced, greedy, jealous, psychopathic narcissist who’s maliciously used, stalked, sabotaged, and betrayed those closest to me, and anyone around me, for my own gain for years, manipulating my way to the top like some kind of evil mastermind.

You were lied to. There are things I’ve done wrong, but this image of me could not be further from reality. This was a complete public assassination of my character over what were lies and assumptions, followed by my cancellation and disappearance, with my accusers profiting from it. If I was really the awful person I was made out to be then this document wouldn’t exist. I wouldn’t have any way to refute the claims made against me. I could’ve just continued streaming and profited from the drama and the over thirty million views this situation garnered. I could’ve let everyone forget about this and come back like nothing ever happened. But it’s not true, and I couldn’t allow myself to move on without making things right. Everything that’s come out and stories that followed have been blown way out of proportion and turned into crazy conspiracies. Both Red and I have done wrong, and all of that will be addressed here, but the story everyone was told was not the reality of what happened. Every single person I’ve ever interacted with in the past almost five years, even those closest to me, and every single interaction with them, would have to have been fake for the story told about me to be true.

I believe that there were two people responsible for how things played out, with a third person merely having an axe to grind against someone they never liked. Nanoless lied overwhelmingly about what happened between her and Red, sat back, and played everyone, including my friends. Shylily lied about me from the start, orchestrated things behind the scenes, and manipulated the public to their side. Silvervale took the opportunity to lie all about our interactions together, making things even worse for me. They had the most to gain from my cancellation, including their own satisfaction. None of them could take accountability for their own actions and pushed it all onto me instead. The only two people that could disprove their lies were just made into lying manipulators and wiped off the internet.

Aside from the labeled speculation, everything presented in this document is true to the best of mine and Red’s knowledge. I have nothing to hide, and there isn’t a reason to hide anything anymore. The bulk of what’s shown here was over the past two plus years. Keep in mind that no matter who you are, opinions, thoughts, and feelings can change a lot over such a long period of time, for better or worse. I went back and forth on a lot of things to put in here, asking myself if I should leave them out for the people I still care for, or keep them in for my own sake. No matter what evidence is included in this document, it wouldn’t be surprising if it’s claimed that even with all of the evidence, all of this is just me trying to lie, manipulate, and gaslight my way out of what happened, and that no one should possibly believe me again.

To show that I stand by everything written here and that I’m sorry for the things I’ve done wrong, I made a very hard decision. I’m giving up my part ownership position of Gamer Supps. I’ve worked so hard for them since December of 2022, and earning this position was one of the biggest accomplishments of my life. I’m honored they chose to give me the opportunity and I’ve been immensely proud to have the title. As sad as I am to do this, I feel the need to protect the company I love, the people that work there, and everyone associated over my own interests. Gamer Supps suffered a lot of damage when all of the accusations were made about me, and that fell on my shoulders. This is my responsibility as part owner, and I don’t want any more harm or negativity to come to them by having this position. I didn’t have to do this, and I wasn’t asked, forced, or coerced into making this decision. There are things more important to me than “business.” I notified them of my decision in June, and it will take effect at the same time this document is published.

Each tab in this document is about the people and events related to the claims made against me where I’ve provided links to each person’s respective statements for reference, the evidence, context, and mine and Red’s thoughts around each situation. You're intended to read each section, and in the order they’re presented. This document should be viewed in desktop and light mode for the formatting to appear correctly. Some information and screenshots appear in multiple sections for whoever it’s relevant to. The first few sections, being Nanoless, Bao, VCard & Numi’s Concert, and Shylily, culminate in a section breaking down what you’ve seen throughout them, with the last few sections of this document being standalone. Unless stated otherwise, every link in this document is working at the time this is posted. This document will not be edited after it’s posted either. Because we live in 2025 I need to say that this document was written without the use of AI. I understand some of the things in this document may be damaging to the people involved. They understood that their claims would be damaging to me before they publicly made them too. Everyone can review the evidence for themselves and decide what really happened, and if I really am the person you were led to believe me to be.

The burden of proof is on the accuser, not the accused.

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Redacted

Red helped me put this entire document together. We want to be upfront and honest that this was a two person effort. His own commentary is present throughout it and is labeled as his and highlighted in blue .

Red: Hello, I’m Red. I’m Sinder’s long time partner and have worked alongside her since she started this career. I helped her put this document together to set the record straight. Over the past few months I’ve had to come to terms with being the reason why Sinder’s image, her relationships, and her career were all ruined. I hurt people who were our friends. I fucked up, and she had to answer to the world for it by herself. My actions ruined everything for her and I’m taking responsibility and helping her pick up the pieces. I didn’t want to put something out sooner without her that could’ve made things worse. I ask that you don’t hold what I did against her.

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Red and I

Red and I are still together. We had a falling out and spent time apart after the documents dropped on April 26th. But he was still here for me when I was ready to talk to him again. We were able to work things out between us and forgive each other for what happened. I wasn’t planning to say anything about this again publicly, but I felt I needed to.

Years ago, I cheated on Red online for my own selfish reasons, and the things I said about him were out of my own frustrations and past experiences. I made things sound much worse than they were at the time and mischaracterized the person he is. Red already knew that this happened way before it was made public in April, and no one else was ever told about it before then either. We addressed both of our problems in our relationship and moved past it a long time ago. It had nothing to do with my career or current events, and isn’t relevant to talk about further. We disagree, we get mad at each other, we argue, but our relationship isn’t toxic or abusive in any way. I would appreciate it if the speculation around it would stop.

Red and I have always had some level of communication problems, even with each other. Neither of us are good communicators beyond surface level. It’s hard to open up and we get in our own heads about things. We butt heads and disagree with each other sometimes, and even more so working together all day every day. It’s gotten much better over the years, but it’s never been perfect. So the idea that anyone, in any relationship, would know about, and agree with everything their partner feels, says, and does is crazy to me. I’m not the only one who’s ever had a significant other keep secrets from them, and neither is Red. Every relationship is different and has its own nuances, dynamics, and problems, functioning in a way that only the two people involved know of and fully understand. No one looking in can say otherwise. Because I cheated on Red, should I assume that everyone’s significant other has cheated on them in the past? Should I assume that all of my friends’ relationships are the same as mine? No, and for me to claim I know exactly how things work between any of them just because I’m their friend that sees them a few times a year is ridiculous.

When I became Sinder, we wanted to keep our relationship private. In public, Red was simply my manager, and we hid our relationship from my friends for over a year during multiple trips. We agreed that I’d tell my closest friends about our relationship in March of 2024 because we felt we were close enough and trusted them enough to tell them. When we traveled, my friends saw us always close by each other, and showing each other our work dms on our phones, almost all of the time from chats we were both in, instead of talking about things out loud to keep up with our projects while away, and to keep them private between us. It’s easier to say “look at this” to keep each other on the same page, rather than have a verbal conversation while we’re around other people at almost all times while away. What they saw at conventions or on vacations was all they saw. Only Red and I would have any idea how we worked together and acted around each other when at home.

I lived with Red and his family from the Summer of 2022 to the end of February 2025. I have never outright told anyone this, including my closest friends. We wanted to keep at least part of our personal lives private from everyone, even telling some people we lived apart. On stream I’ve always said I lived with family friends and streamed in a basement. The basement part is true. It’s where I spent the majority of my time, and it’s where I worked and streamed from. My career started there in 2021 with my ASMR. Red was the one with the pc, mic, and experience with content creation since it’s always been his hobby. I would go there more and more often until I moved in when I became a full time streamer. For most of my earliest streams with my png model, Red would be in the room with me, modding on a laptop and making sure things would run smoothly. He was there as my tech support since at the time I could barely play games, let alone understand how to use and fix OBS if something went wrong. We built my own pc and I stopped needing him by my side by the time I debuted my first model in June 2022. He moved his pc into his own room and has worked from there since. Starting sometime last year, my streams kept disconnecting and we couldn’t figure out why. This was going on for months and no matter what we did, it kept happening. We thought there could be something wrong with the internet there that we couldn’t fix. So as a last resort, my parents and I made space for me to move back in with them with my entire stream setup in February. We were able to fix the problem, but it ended up having nothing to do with the internet at all. I’ve been working and living here since, separate from Red.

The reason why I’m revealing all of this now is because we could’ve easily gone through each other’s dms whenever we wanted in those three years, but we didn’t. It’s not like we never showed each other our messages directly. We did, all the time, but we didn’t comb through each other’s dms at the end of every day to read anything we may have said, and I don’t know anyone who’d say that’s normal to do. We would just tell each other things that happened and that was that. I never felt the need to look over his shoulder to check on anything and everything he was saying and to who. We trusted each other and he’s always had my best interest in mind.

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Working Together

I’m choosing to have Red continue working with me. He will be doing most of what he did for me before, but will not be doing any work related communication for me in any channels I’m not also a part of. I now have access to his Discord account to check on things myself if I need to. It’s clear to me that he learned his own lesson from what happened.

He made mistakes, and I forgave him. I wouldn’t be where I am without him and he’s just as much a part of Sinder as I am. He wasn’t just a manager that handled some messages, and he had a part in a lot of the things I did. He’s always been the main creative mind behind my debuts and other releases too. Even with how involved he was, Red is still his own person, with his own ideas, his own opinions, his own feelings towards people, his own goals, and his own ambitions, working under the same brand as me. He’s always been the business sensible one out of us, and the work side of things was always his focus. We worked together on almost everything, but we didn’t agree on everything. There've been many business or creative decisions we’d argue back and forth about, sometimes taking days to reach a compromise. Red didn’t always consult me before making his own choices in his messages with our partners. A lot of the time I agreed with what he did or said and it was fine. But sometimes I didn’t, and we either compromised, or I had him walk back what he said. Red didn’t tell me about every single interaction he had with people we worked with, and I didn’t expect him to. I trusted him. There was never a reason for him to not tell me something important. That was until we disagreed about one of my friends, Bao.

At the start of this year, we moved a lot of our work related conversations with various artists into a project server so everything could be organized into one place. I could be included in discussions and decision making where I needed to be, and would be able to see everything being said without having to rely on Red to relay every detail of the things he was handling. This was for organization, convenience, and so I could interact with every person working with me directly. However, this didn’t mean Red didn’t still use his dms to do business or talk to people we were working with. Besides the allegations in Nano’s document, no one else we’ve worked with has ever complained about Red, and we’ve both worked with dozens of people who I believe would say their experience working with us was nothing but positive.

Like I said in my apology, there were things Red didn't tell me about, or hid from me, and did without me knowing in his dms. They’re all shown in this document in the order below. I didn’t know about these things beyond what I was told, if I was at all.

Red’s inclusion of Bao and Cotton in his exclusivity deal with Nano in January 2025.

Red telling Artist #1 Bao was someone he considered “competition” while discussing exclusivity on the same day as his deal with Nano.

Red’s conversation with Nano about Shylily in April 2025.

Red’s conversations with Mod #1 about Silvervale throughout 2024 and into 2025.

Red asking Artist #2 about not working with Silvervale in March 2025.

Red’s conversation with Artist #1 about Silvervale in April 2025, which Artist #1 told me about days later.

The names of Artist #1, Artist #2, and Mod #1 are hidden to protect their privacy since they weren’t directly involved in everything that happened in April. They will be reintroduced later in this document.

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Falling Out

The night the first documents were posted, Red was here with me. I ended my stream and he came over to see me while we worked on a few things together. We were still awake when Nano and Bao posted their documents at almost 2am EST. I didn’t understand what was going on and started panicking. Red tried to explain what happened, but I blew up at him and kicked him out, regrettably refusing his help. We weren’t in contact for almost a month after.

I had one close friend reach out to me after things were public, and I responded to them sometime after Red was gone. I chose not to include their own message here.

I was distraught, and I posted that Red was fired later that morning. I wasn’t trying to “throw him under the bus” and avoid accountability. I was blindsided by my friends publicly pointing the finger at me for his words and actions I didn’t even know about, and I didn’t agree with. I didn’t know what else to do.

In my apology I said:

“As of yesterday he is no longer working with me, and I have not extensively discussed any of this with him.”

Because Red will continue working with me, I will be deleting this tweet sometime after posting this document.

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 4:24 AM EST

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1916045825584644450

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My Apology & Taking Accountability

Now that I’ve reviewed everything that happened and had time to reflect on my own actions, there are some details I need to point out and corrections I need to make from my apology. Then, I’ll go over the things Red, or I, or both of us did wrong so we can take responsibility. Each section after this will explain the full story around each major individual involved, anything Red and I did, and defending ourselves against everything we didn’t do. Quotes from my apology will be present throughout this document to show what they were in reference to.

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Screenshots that are directly of or taken from another document are highlighted with an orange border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

Quotes from my apology are highlighted in gray .

Red’s own comments on anything being presented are labeled and highlighted in blue .

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My apology for reference: My Apology

Posted on 4/27/2025 at 4:16 PM EST

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1916587357626605610

The things I claimed and admitted to in my apology were based on what I knew at the time, what was published in everyone else’s documents, and what Red told me right after. I shut him out when I shouldn’t have. I made my apology without his help, without all of the info in front of me, and without knowing the full scope of what happened, how it happened, or what to believe. I was under extreme stress and pressure to say something as soon as I could, and was expected to accept fault for everything I was accused of, but not guilty of doing. Some of the things I wrote were overly apologetic and I made things sound worse than they actually were because of the severity of the situation.

The main takeaway people had from my apology was that I pushed everything onto Red and didn’t take accountability for anything myself.

What I blamed Red for in my apology, because he was guilty of doing them:

Him telling me how great it would be to work together with Silvervale.
Him holding a grudge against Bao.

What I blamed Red for in my apology when I was also guilty:

Red was the one with the business oriented outlook on things from the start. I adopted that same mindset myself from working together as time went on. I wrongly made it sound like I was brainwashed into thinking this way in my apology.

What Red was guilty of in my apology that I didn’t know about until writing it:

Red and Nano ever talking about a model for Giri in November 2023.
Red including Bao and Cotton in his conversation and eventual deal with Nano around exclusivity in January 2025, and badmouthing Bao in their dms as if they were our shared feelings.
Red talking to Nano about Shylily and her model in April 2025.

Things I said about Red in my apology that I was wrong about:

He did not manipulate Nano.
He did not push Nano to not work with Silvervale, and she was not a constant topic between them.

Things I took accountability for in my apology:

Agreeing with Red to talk with Nano about exclusivity, agreeing to specifically name Silvervale in the terms, and knowing a deal involving her was made.
Guilt tripping Nano.
Feeling overly attached to Nano and her work.
Not knowing about what Red had said about Bao to Nano when I should’ve.
Not speaking to Bao about Red’s feelings towards her, and letting it spiral to the point it did.
Being upset and taking it personally when Bao hired my video editor.
Being upset when Sacramore told us he wouldn’t be working with us again.
Confiding in Red about Shyily’s behavior towards me.
Becoming resentful towards Silvervale.
Letting my insecurities and public comments influence my feelings towards Silvervale.
Assuming Spite copied me.
Being very possessive of my design details early on in my career.
Overreacting to NyanTales’ hellhound OC design, which was apologized for in the past.
Cheating on my boyfriend.
Neglecting, or leaving behind, friends of mine.

I admitted to the world that I cheated on my secret boyfriend and the story pushed was that “I took no accountability, and used him as a scapegoat.” Even with all of these concessions of what I did do, I was still somehow a narcissist who couldn’t accept fault. What I did was not admit to “the right things” the people making these claims already decided I was guilty of. They also expected me to apologize for everything I’ve ever done without any of it ever being mentioned, even if the matter was already settled in the past.

I understand that the things my manager did that I didn’t know about are ultimately my responsibility, and my ignorance doesn’t change that. I should’ve taken more care to check up on what he was saying and doing. But I was being blamed publicly for things I had nothing to do with. My accusers went out of their way to claim “Sinder did this, and Sinder said that”, completely disregarding Red’s agency from any of his own words and actions. The “proof” I must’ve known about everything he’s ever said and done was because they said we worked on things together on our phones during the few times a year we were traveling, and Nano’s document showed two of my screenshots from over a year apart from separate situations where I knew more or less what had happened between her and Red. There was no other evidence presented for their claim, but they told everyone it absolutely had to be this way. Emphasis was placed on Red’s usage of “we” and “our” as if they could know for a fact that it meant Red was always speaking with my knowledge, approval, and oversight every single time he said it. This was necessary for their narrative to work against me.

This is what I said in my apology about this:

“I do not condone anything about what Red said about Bao in these dms either, and him using "we" and "our" in this context is abhorrently incorrect and I believe was done to gain greater credibility behind what he was saying.”

Red: I have always been more or less the “creative lead” on things we did, like model designs, project ideas, and art in general, and Sinder often agreed with my creative judgement. She trusted me to do the communication I did for her without oversight. For example, a lot of times I would be the one talking to the artists we were working with who only knew me as “Sinder’s manager.” If I knew the direction I wanted to take something, with or without talking to Sinder beforehand, and I said “I want this art to be like this” instead of “Sinder wants this art to be like this”, then it felt like an awkward thing for me to say. In my mind, to the person we’re working with I’m just the manager, not the creator, not the streamer, not their client. What I myself wanted wasn’t important, what Sinder wanted was. So in order to give weight to what I would say I started using “we” early on, without speaking for her directly saying “Sinder.” If “we” wanted to do something a certain way, then it’d give me agency by implying that we both agreed on and made the decision, that Sinder was aware of the decision being made, regardless of if she actually was or wasn’t at the time, and that my words had meaning. I was speaking on “we, the brand’s” behalf. It became a habit of mine to talk this way regarding any projects or business dealings. I didn’t start doing this because anyone told me I should be. I didn’t speak like this all the time, or in every single message. It’s not like Sinder never knew about what I was saying when saying “we.” If afterwards she did disagree with me on something then I’d have to walk back what I said and say that “Sinder actually wants it this way”, for example. Very often Sinder was on the same page as me beforehand, or would agree with what I said without her knowledge using “we” afterwards.

In the case of the exclusivity deal with Nano, I used “we” when talking about Bao so it’d seem like Sinder also backed how I felt. Sinder not only wasn’t aware of this, but I knew she didn’t agree with me about what I was saying. In our conversation Nano said herself that she was “not really down (with) working with people who Sinder (didn’t) want (her) to”, so I made sure to tell Nano how “we” felt, expressing my own feelings to her as if they were both of ours. This will all be shown in Nano’s section.

There are 3 things in my apology I need to correct that will be shown in full detail in this document:

Missing information, lies, and incorrect statements in my apology:

I left out a lot of information regarding my experience with Silvervale in trying to overly apologize to her, and ended up making things sound much worse than what really happened.
I lied about not knowing that Red spoke to Nano about Spite in 2023 to not make things worse for myself by revealing more than Nano or Spite did about what happened regarding her.
I was wrong about which year the situation with NyanTales took place in. I wrote that it was after my debut, but it was actually an entire year earlier.

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My apology, and the accusations made against me, did not cover everything Red and I have done wrong. I’ve laid out everything below that will be presented throughout this document so we can address them and take responsibility. Explaining the motives and reasoning behind our actions are not meant to justify or diminish them, or the feelings of those affected, but to understand why they happened.

Everything one of us, or both of us, are guilty of, that accountability is taken for and shown in this document, in the order they’re presented in:

We both became neglectful of many friendships and personal relationships online and irl.
Red and I became consumed by our work and prioritized my career over all else.
Red considered everyone, including our friends, competition to some degree, and I agreed.
Red and I left Tricky at our hotel in Tokyo one day during our Japan trip in October 2024.
I chose to distance myself from Cotton after what happened between her and a friend.
I tried going back on my agreement with the artist Nixeu in April 2025.
Red asked Nano to not work with Spite in January 2023 and told me about it afterwards. I lied about not knowing he spoke to her about Spite in my apology to avoid talking about it.
Red initially dissuaded Nano from accepting a model from Giri in November 2023.
I guilt tripped Nano in November 2023 and February 2025, but still sided with her.
Red reassured Nano about her considering and canceling Bao’s model in August 2024.
I knew Bao’s model was canceled in August 2024 and didn’t try to do anything about it.
Red and I agreed to talk with Nano about exclusivity, including not to work with Silvervale specifically on any more models, in January 2025.
Red and Nano agreed to a deal for her not to work with Silver, Bao, or Cotton in January 2025, only telling me about Silvervale’s inclusion.
Red spoke to Nano about Shylily in April 2025 after seeing Nano work on a model for her, and never told me about this conversation.
We asked our video editor about exclusivity after Bao started working with them in September 2023.
Red convinced himself Bao gatekept her video editor to hurt our future music video projects in December 2024, then held a grudge and list of grievances against her.
I didn’t speak to Bao to clear things up about what I knew Red held against her, and it led to me being an awful friend to her for months at the start of 2025.
Both Red and I mismanaged the planning and communication with Numi about her concert at the start of February 2025. I pulled out of performing in her show, and almost didn’t go after choosing business over my friend.
We both grew to dislike Silvervale over the past few years for various reasons, including harassment and comparisons, my own insecurities, and how Silvervale acted towards me.
Red asked an artist not to work with Silvervale in March 2025 and never told me about it.
Red and I assumed Spite was copying me in 2022 and early 2023.
I overreacted to NyanTales’ hellhound OC design in 2021.

Every claim of wrongdoing that was made against Red or I that isn’t listed above is not true, whether it was an assumption or a lie, in someone’s document, statement about me, or verbally on stream. I would list the false accusations here, but there’s been such a ridiculous amount at this point that I don’t even know where to start. I will let this document speak for itself.

These actions were not “over years” like the public was told. The majority of these actions happened in an 8 month span from August 2024 to April 2025. How each person was affected, if they were affected at all, is explained throughout this document. Nothing was black and white, and none of these actions were motivated by jealousy, envy, greed, or being malicious for the sake of it.

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My Friends

It’s been falsely claimed that I was using, manipulating, sabotaging, betraying, and backstabbing all of my friends for years in an effort to “deplatform” them and ruin their careers. There was never some kind of years long grand conspiracy of deceit against anyone, and I have never “pushed the ladder down behind me.” I have never been jealous or envious of any of my friends, or anyone else. My friends were not stepping stones I used to further myself. I loved my friends. Our experiences together were real. Our memories together are real. It hurts that I even need to say that here. There are plenty of things my friends know I’ve done for them, helped them with, or included them in for no other reason than that they were my friends. I’ve always answered their questions and offered them advice when they asked, done my best to be there and support them at their debuts, with their own endeavors, and I’ve personally bought so much of their merch for myself without ever saying so. I literally brought brownies my mom made across the country to share with them. I spent my own time making one of a kind cosplay pieces of their vtubers for them for no other reason than that they were my friends. More than the three finished pieces below were planned for more of my friends, including Bao, before I put all of my crafting focus into my Nihilister cosplay. It meant a lot to me that I could make things that meant a lot to them.

I don’t know what they think I did against them other than what I listed above, or where these ideas came from, or what rumors they were hearing about me, or how my friends collectively agreed this must’ve been the case after everything we’ve done and shared with each other. I absolutely could’ve been a much better friend, but I just can’t believe every single one of them thought this little of me at a moment’s notice. There were about a dozen of my friends involved before Nano’s document was posted, and still not one of them said anything to me before they were posted publicly.

A lot of my friendships did suffer due to where my priorities have been, especially over the course of 2024. Because of my focus being overwhelmingly on work, and less and less on my personal relationships outside of it, I neglected people I cared about, and so did Red. Both online and irl. Even my closest friends. Unless it was about work, I didn’t put as much energy into just talking and hanging out, but that’s not to say I never did, never wanted to, or disliked them for any reason. I had my things going on, and I know they had theirs. When I wasn’t streaming or working on something, I’d be isolating or hanging out with Red to decompress, and I didn’t have the energy to socialize. I tried to plan collabs with friends as often as I could, and it was a way to hang out while still appeasing my content brain. My collabs with my friends were made into YouTube videos, but to say that I was using them for that, as if countless other vtubers don’t do the same thing, is crazy. When I was traveling to see my friends, all I wanted to do was hang out and spend as much time together as I could, and it was the happiest I was. Red and I always loved, valued, looked out for, and appreciated our friends, even if we didn’t show it as often as we should’ve.

I’m sorry to those of my friends who I haven’t given the time they gave to me. I’m sorry for those I haven’t spoken to in a long time for no other reason than my own negligence. And I’m sorry to my friends that I only focused on work with, and didn’t spend enough time being your friend outside of it.

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The Business Mindset

Red and I slowly became more closed off and neglectful of people over the past couple years, but especially throughout 2024, focusing more and more of our time and energy on this career. Work became almost 24/7 for us, never taking a break. It was our job, our hobby, and almost all we talked about. We loved what we did, but we both became consumed by the content grind. Our work life balance became nonexistent. We were going, and going, and going all day every day as a two person team, working to an obsessive degree. We were always trying to do more, with more people, all the time. Everything became about doing bigger things, achieving more, accomplishing more, growing bigger, launching more cool things, having more opportunities, while keeping up with at least four to five streams a week. Our problem wasn’t greed, like it was claimed, it was ambition. Ambition that was wearing us too thin to keep up with everything, but it was never enough to take a step back and relax. We were always looking ahead, always had to be progressing, and never stopped to appreciate where we were, or the people around us.

The money was nice, but it’s never been the driving factor for anything we did. It was an indicator of a successful project, event, or merch drop that anyone understood. The majority of what I’ve made and spent went back into my work, or towards the house my dad has been building. I’ve released a lot of merch, and it’s something Red and I have both been passionate about. Coming up with and releasing cool, new merch products is one of the most fun and fulfilling things to work on. And being on new products, like a drink flavor or trading card game, was super exciting to us. It was always about launching cool things for my community over the money it made. I’ve turned down merchandise opportunities, and many more sponsorship opportunities than I’ve ever accepted, only taking on those I really wanted or had a strong interest in, even though a lot of them were paying very well. Being a greedy, money hungry person has been falsely projected onto me. It’s never been all about the money for either of us.

One instance I may be called out for regarding this was during my heavenhound model debut. During my lore video, I had an intermission where my chat needed to fill a goal bar on screen with bits to progress the video. It was the easiest way for me to implement interactivity into the debut, and my chat having direct involvement by “cheering” me on was important to the story being shown. The motivation wasn’t to have people give me money for the sake of it.

This mindset got myself and my career to where it was, but it took over our lives to an unhealthy degree, leading to the deterioration of our health and relationships with people. Being canceled and away from work gave us the time to address this problem in our personal lives. For example, I have my own dog now who’s been keeping me busy. I’ve gotten back into cosplay after not working on my Nihilister build for months. I’ve been trying to lead a healthier lifestyle and I’ve been going to the gym regularly. Despite finding it difficult to be motivated about things since April, I’ve been making changes so I don’t fall back into the same unhealthy work mindset I was in.

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Competition

In my apology I said:

“I'm disgusted with myself for buying into the narrative that my friends were "competition.””

“I just learned about all this myself and there could have been so many other friends affected by the narrative that things always had to be competitive.”

Red always considered everyone our competition, including my friends. I understood and agreed with his reasoning below. It didn’t change anything between my friends and I, and I didn’t treat them any differently because of it. The only person I became directly competitive against was Silvervale, and that wasn’t right of me.

Red: The content creation sphere is massive, and the vtuber sphere is a fraction of that with its own audience. Everyone is always doing something, launching something, playing something, and it’s a constant race of relevancy, whether you want to look at it that way or not. It’s the nature of the industry. Part of the reason why we were always working on new things, releasing bigger things, at a faster and faster rate was to stay competitive in the space. In a general sense, everyone was competition. Friends, other vtubers, and other content creators. But at the same time that anyone and everyone could be considered competition, they were also collaborators, coworkers, and partners. The end goal was about staying relevant and in people’s minds, and making sure our projects could succeed alongside anything going on at any given time, while also topping our own things we’ve done in the past. At no point was this view ever motivation or an excuse to hurt, take advantage of, or put down creators around us. Especially friends. This is a business, it’s a job, but keeping the business aspect of things in mind didn’t affect the way I saw our friendships with people or the way I treated them. They were my friends too, and we both cared about them, supported them, and helped them out when they needed it. I’ve always had the backs of the people closest to us.

The only people I’ve ever considered as direct competition in the negative sense were people either we had something against, or they had or did something against us, and were working with artists important to us. By April 2025 this was only Silvervale from how she acted towards Sinder for years, Bao after what I thought she did to us and our other friends in December of 2024, but only until sometime after my deal with Nano in January 2025, and potentially soon to be Lily by the way she was treating Sinder and coincidentally getting a model from Nanoless at the same time. It was wrong of me to feel this way, especially towards Bao, and I’m sorry.

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Here I want to address the people Red and I hurt that don’t have a larger section in this document.

Trickywi

My friends, Red, and I traveled to Japan last year. About a week into our trip around the country, we arrived in Tokyo for the last few days there. Red, Tricky, and I were all talking about going to the Godzilla store the night we arrived, but other plans left us with no time to go. The next morning, Red and I were up super early and were ready to leave the hotel around 8 or 9am. We waited in our hotel room for about an hour without hearing from Tricky at all. Because we only had a few days left in Japan, Red and I wanted to make the most of our remaining time. We were around friends all week and didn’t have much, if any, time alone together in Japan either. The other half dozen of us there either had their own plans, or were still sleeping too. There were other friends staying at the same hotel as Red, Tricky and I. So instead of waiting around for Tricky to wake up, we selfishly chose to go out into the city and to the Godzilla store without her. By the time Tricky was awake and ready to leave the hotel, Red and I were across the city and didn’t go back to get her. We only met up with her towards the end of the day when everyone reconvened somewhere.

Red and I are sorry to Tricky for leaving her behind and hurting her. We’ve always been there for her, especially when we’ve traveled together. We didn’t think she’d be left completely alone with how many of us were together in Tokyo, but we still should’ve waited for her instead of going off on our own. She was one of our best friends and we’re both so sorry.

CottontailVA

I’m sorry to Cotton for the way I’ve avoided her and turned down collabs together for a situation that had nothing to do with me. I thought I was being a good friend to someone I was close with, but it was unfair to her to treat her that way. I did not agree with how Red included her name in his deal with Nano, and I wouldn’t have let him if I knew about it, regardless of how I felt about her at the time.

Red: It was wrong of me to ask Nano not to work with Cotton. It was a spur of the moment thing, and after hearing about the situation she was involved in, I took it upon myself to do what I thought was right by another friend. Cotton’s always been nice to me personally, and she didn’t deserve that. I’m sorry.

Nixeu

Nixeu deleted her tweet with her document about me. She shouldn’t have, because she was right. I was going to include it here for reference, but I’ve left it out because of what she wrote in it. So instead I’ve summarized the situation below.

Nixeu, or @IomayaAF, is an artist that reached out to me via email about making artwork in exchange for showing it off and giving a shoutout to her Patreon on stream. I hadn’t seen the email, but she made a tweet laying out her terms tagging me in it. I messaged her that I was interested. I put her in contact with Red and he handled things from there. Through Red, we made our agreement. It wasn’t until she had a large portion of the sketch finished when I had changed my mind about our agreement and didn’t want to do it anymore. I don’t know what was going through my head or what my reason was for this, but I told Red to call it off. Red tried to make it seem like there was miscommunication somewhere to save face for me, but it was really because I was being unprofessional. He talked to me and I agreed to follow through with the art showcase and shoutout on my stream. However, I failed to follow Nixeu’s terms as they were agreed upon. I didn’t verbally shout out her Patreon, and only showed the link to it that was on her artwork. I also didn’t show the censored, NSFW version of the art, but that was because I was worried about getting in trouble with Twitch.

This was an unprecedented situation I caused with an artist, and I’ve never done something like this with anyone else. I handled an agreement I made extremely and regrettably unprofessionally. This was way out of character for me, and I’m sorry to Nixeu for how I handled things and for the stress I caused her. I encourage anyone reading this to please support her and her incredible work.

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Nanoless

Nano’s document for reference: Terminating my work with Sinder.

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 1:42 AM EST

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1916005023646916910

Nano’s document claimed both Red and I manipulated, used, and dragged her into drama, while slandering multiple vtubers, including our friends. These claims were the basis for everything else publicly released afterwards. Documents from half a dozen people, and many others tweeting their grievances with me. It all hinged on Nano’s document being posted, and its validity.

When I wrote my apology I said:

“I was not fully aware of the extent of Red’s manipulation over Nano’s commission decisions.”

When I wrote this poorly worded sentence, I hadn’t seen any of these dms. I was in a panic, and didn’t think Nano would be lying about anything. But now that I’ve read Red’s dms myself, I can say that Nano was not manipulated, abused, used, lied to, mistreated, expected to take action over any drama she was told about, or incapable of making her own decisions regarding her commissions and clientele. She was never forced to do or not do anything, has always been in control of her own choices, and always had the ability to say no. She was met with understanding and faced no repercussions professionally or personally from either of us when she did. Nano’s messages with Red were deceitfully presented to push a narrative that never happened. I don’t believe Nano ever showed the full context of her messages with Red to my friends. Her claims were backed by Shylily and I believe they were misled into blindly supporting her.

Nano was a close friend who we respected, and was a massive part of my own success. I’ve only ever praised her, privately and publicly. There was nothing she could do for me to hold anything against her or choose to stop working with her. Red and I always encouraged Nano to do what was best for her, not us. Red, who handled our plans with her, made sure to work around her schedule, push projects back if she needed more time on them or to take a break, and give her first priority on projects she was interested in. He trusted her, and the extent he “lied” to her about the other people involved was in telling her his own genuine thoughts, observations, and experiences with them as he knew them. The same way my accusers did to the public with how they assumed how Red and I had to have operated together.

The claim that Red and I worked to sabotage projects Nano had is a lie. We both would praise her for the work she did for other people, and I’ve always celebrated and supported new Nano model siblings when they debuted. Even if Red was really asking Nano to cancel every model she had, it was ultimately still her choice to do it or not, but all of the blame for her actions was somehow put on me.

There were only four people Red ever explicitly asked Nano not to work with, with her agreeing not to. The first was Spite at the start of 2023. Red asked Nano himself and he told me about it after. I lied about knowing this in my apology since it was never mentioned in Nano’s or Spite’s documents. Bao, Cotton, and Silvervale were all part of their exclusivity deal in January of 2025, and each for Red’s own reasons. I was only ever aware of and in agreement of asking Nano not to work with Silver anymore. Red never told me about the other two. I am not guilty of him using his free will to push his own agenda and express his own feelings to Nano, but I understand that as my manager, everything he said to her, or anyone else, is my responsibility whether I knew about it or not. Although they were friends, it was unprofessional of him to talk gossip and work interchangeably.

We’ve worked with Nano for four years. She is an incredible artist who I’ve treasured working alongside for my entire career. I put my faith in her at the start when we were both much smaller creators. She saved me from a year long struggle to get my first model, and she’s been with me every step of my journey since. I wanted Nano to be a part of anything she could, and chose to make her artwork the backbone of my brand. I love and appreciate every single thing she’s done for me, and I’m proud of everything I’ve been able to do for her. In April, I believe Nano found herself in a situation she couldn’t back out of, and then chose to do what would result in the most beneficial outcome for herself. Hide the truth.

Below are a large portion of Nano’s dms with Red and I over the past two and a half years that show any situations brought up in Nano’s document in full context, show the relationship we had with her, how she felt about us and other people involved in everything, and any other relevant conversations that weren’t included in what was posted to the public. I’ve also included some of my own messages with her, and some messages with other people. Some of these dms are repeated and included in the following sections of this document. Nano’s profile picture is different in some of these screenshots because of them being taken at different times throughout making this document.

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Everything is in chronological order, and all dates and times are in EST.

I’ve censored any private information or names of people who aren’t directly involved.

Screenshots that include messages that were in any of the documents are highlighted with a red border.

Screenshots that are directly of or taken from another document are highlighted with an orange border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

Quotes from my apology are highlighted in gray .

Red’s own comments on anything being presented are labeled and highlighted in blue .

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1/23/2023 - By the start of 2023, Nano was already sharing her commission plans with Red. She also told him that it was okay for us to commission someone else for merch artwork Red had previously talked to her about. Red said it was no problem for us to wait for her to do it.

Like I said in my apology:

“In regards to Nanoless, for the majority of the time working with her, Red was the one almost solely doing the communication about new plans and negotiations through his private DMs.”

Later that day was the first time Red brought up Spite to Nano.

Red asked Nano not to work with Spite, and she gladly agreed not to. Red only told me about this after it was done. It wasn’t something we talked about beforehand, but I was okay with it. Nano never said anything about this to me, and we’ve never talked about Spite. I shared the feelings Red expressed here since he was the only other one who knew how I felt. What he said about negative comments I was getting was true. Everything regarding Spite is presented in her section of this document.

This was not included in Nano’s or Spite’s documents at all. Why? Since they didn’t say anything about it, I chose not to either. I lied about not knowing about Red’s conversations with Nano about Spite to try and not make things worse for myself, but I still accidentally alluded to it because of the state I was in.

This was what I said in my apology:

“Once again, I had no involvement or knowledge of Red bringing up Spite to Nano in 2023. My only personal involvement with excluding someone specific from working with Nano was Silver.”

Red: Sinder was upset over what we both thought was Spite copying her. I saw Spite interacting with Nano, possibly with the intent of trying to work with her. I went to Nano myself and asked her not to without talking to Sinder first. This was about one person and one artist they never worked with before who was fine with agreeing to it. As far as I know it never actually affected Spite. I have never talked about Spite with any other artist, and I’m sorry to her that I asked this of Nano.

This was the 1st of 4 total times, with 3 different artists, I had ever specifically asked anyone to not work with someone else, which are all presented in this document.

Red: I started the conversation as if we were asking Nano to do this, like I would any other time.

Red: But then I tell Nano “I just wanted to ask if you’re okay with being 1 Hellhound exclusive.” and, “I feel really bad asking you something like this.”

Nano and I have never talked about Spite. Here’s me searching “spite” in my own dms with Nano:

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1/26/2023 - An example of the relationship Red had with Nano and how they would talk with each other. Nano told Red she wants to make my winter outfit after Red messaged her about it a few days earlier on 1/22/2023.

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3/27/2023 - Red asked about Nano’s other work for us to plan around with her, and Nano willingly shared. This was normal between them.

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3/29/2023 - Nano told Red she wouldn’t be able to meet the deadline for two pieces of art she was doing for me. Red was sympathetic and extended the deadline for her. Nano implied that she’s been taking on too many projects.

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4/2/2023 - 4/14/2023 - Nano turned down artwork plans that were previously discussed for some time off. Eventually, Red told her we were able to find another artist for those plans. In between, Red praised Nano for her work on another vtuber’s model.

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4/12/2023 - I messaged Nano about starting on some pose ideas for my first Waifu Cup when she was ready and available to.

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4/30/2023 - I told Nano I was trying to get her the okay to work on my Waifu Cup art on stream so it’d be easier for her, and I told her how much it meant to me to have the first Waifu Cup with her artwork on it.

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5/4/2023 - 5/5/2023 - I asked Nano about one of my then upcoming model sister’s debuts when planning my demon debut so they wouldn’t accidentally fall on the same day.

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5/4/2023 - 5/5/2023 - Red asked about Nano’s projects, about when Silver contacted her about her model made in 2022, and encouraged her to set aside time for her own content.

Red: I asked Nano about when she made Silver’s first model from her because we grew suspicious of if it had anything to do with Sinder and her debut about a couple months earlier. Nano wasn’t well known as a model artist in the summer of 2022, and had only done 3 models at that point, including Sinder’s. More about this topic is in Silver’s section of the document.

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5/5/2023 - I thanked Nano for the Waifu Cup artwork she made for me, and her scale figure was announced.

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5/9/2023 - 5/10/2023 - Red talked to Nano about the situation with my first Waifu Cup, which led to him revealing our experience with Silvervale over the past two years. Spite was mentioned towards the end of their conversation, and it was the last time she was ever talked about between them.

Before this, I was told that Silvervale had her own Waifu Cup with Nano’s artwork on it that was already far into production. I was very excited and proud to have the first cup with Nano’s art, and all of a sudden that wasn’t going to be the case. Not only that, but if my cup was going to be released after Silver’s, I would’ve been harassed for copying her again.

Red: I did not lie to Nano about anything I said in this conversation, and I would’ve had no reason to. Everything I said was as I genuinely thought and experienced, speaking to a friend I trusted.

Red: Silver didn’t like Sinder, and how she would respond to Sinder’s raids is the past experience we had to infer that Lily’s reactions to her raids, along with her other behavior, signaled she had a problem with Sinder.

Red: Nano: “DW I LOVE GOSSIPS” Nano’s always been open to talking about drama and gossip with me.

In between these screenshots, Red told Nano the story about the long process of getting my first model, but it’s not relevant to show here.

Red: I’m using “we’re” here, but Sinder had no idea this conversation was happening until I told her about it later. I was speaking for both of us without her knowledge or consent.

Red: I didn’t realize this message was cut off when these screenshots were taken.

They briefly talked about Silver leaving VShojo between these screenshots.

Red: Nano clarified to me that she was the one who went to Silver about a new model when she told me about it on 5/4/2023, but was already regretting it due to not being up for more model work. Nano taking on more models than she could handle will continue to happen over the next couple years.

Red told me the gist of his conversation with Nano, and the next morning I messaged her about it.

Later in our conversation, we were talking about my scale figure that was in pre production.

When Nano suggested I have Goodsmile make my demon figure, I said they didn’t even want Silver, which is something I heard from another friend. Goodsmile is very hard to get to work with. She was a much larger creator than me at the time so I thought my chances of working with them were even smaller. I chose to keep this in, and I’m pointing this out because it’s the only time I said anything mean about Silver in any of my dms with anyone.

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5/15/2023 - I messaged Nano to tell her we needed to change the artwork on one side of my Waifu Cup because it was too similar to Silver’s.

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5/25/2023 - Nano suggested an artist for a reference sheet, and Red told her that we were holding onto my winter outfit for her to do since she was interested.

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7/5/2023 - Nano asked Red if we could pay for a commission for her and subtract the total from the work she did for us. We’ve done this multiple times over the years to help her when she needed it, and she’d take the difference off of our commissions. This was while we were at Anime Expo and had just bought a lifesize standee of her.

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7/16/2023 - 7/21/2023 - I showed Nano that I included her eye symbol in my demon room after my debut, which I’ve been including in all of my major room backgrounds for years. Nano wasn’t a tool for Red or I to use, she was someone we both cherished working with. She said she was planning to start on my winter design soon.

6/25/2022 - Nano’s eye symbol in my first room.

7/15/2023 - Nano’s eye symbol in my demon room.

10/13/2023 - Nano’s eye symbol in my second room, a framed picture with her, and her mascot.

Before it’s questioned, Bao’s mascot is on the table because it looks like it’s made of glass and filled with liquid. Bao is framed with me and my other closest friends on the wall.

12/15/2024 - Nano’s eye symbol in my heavenhound room.

4/4/2025 - Not a room background, but Nano was asked to include her own standee of herself on my most recent starting screen that I had on my desk irl.

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7/18/2023 - 7/19/2023 - Red messaged Nano about Silver asking about a model right after my demon model debut.

Red: Nano mentioned to me that more people are contacting her for models because of Sinder.

Red: After I asked, Nano told me Silver already asked her for a model after Sinder’s demon debut, which was 3 days before this. When I enthusiastically said “WAIT DID YOU TELL HER NO?” about that model, Nano had the ability to tell me no, Silver was still her client, regardless of how I felt about it, which I accepted. That’s just business. Her calling Silver Sinder’s “enemy” at the time were her words, not mine, and not how we viewed Silvervale at this time, just someone treating her unfairly.

Red: We just wanted Silver to get along with Sinder, but we could recognize the way she’d always acted towards Sinder.

Red: Me saying “I think Sinder and Silver will always be fighting for your work behind the scenes” is the first instance of me implying we would eventually be competing directly with anyone.

Red: Nano: “may i know whats up? kinda like to gossip.” Nano’s always been open to talking about drama and gossip with me.

Red: Nano got tired of hearing about drama around Silvervale specifically.

Red: Again I mention competition with Silver because of the fact she couldn’t get along, leading to my thoughts about her being competition down the road, but I was sympathetic to Silver’s point of view too.

Red: I said we were fighting for Sinder and Silver’s shared audience’s “wallets with our cups and figures” because Sinder’s and Silver’s first waifu cups dropped a week apart on 7/15/2022 and 7/21/2022, and their scale figures a month apart on 7/15/2022 and 8/12/2022. We “undercut” Silver’s figure by having an earlier release date than her to avoid Sinder being accused of copying her again. We wanted Silver to at least be on good terms with Sinder. Anyone could see the potential success they’d have working together, including the “money they could make.”

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7/20/2023 - Red complimented Nano’s work she did for Silver, and told her I wanted “Nano everything.”

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8/10/2023 - Red discussed plans with Nano that she was interested in doing, and gave her priority before bringing plans to any other artist. We ultimately decided to wait until Nano was ready to make my winter outfit like it had been discussed with her all year. The blank message shown below was an animated emote on a frame that didn’t show anything.

There’s an unrelated conversation between these messages.

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8/29/2023 - Almost three weeks later, Red checked with Nano on my winter outfit since she was working on a new model, but assured her it was okay that she hadn’t started it yet.

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9/22/2023 - 9/24/2023 - About a month later, Nano asked Red for us to find someone else to do my winter model art due to her workload. Red offered to push the model art back since we had no one else in mind to do it. We wanted to prioritize model work with Nano over the Gamer Supps artwork Red asked her about. Nano did the artwork in October and started my winter model in November.

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10/9/2023 - 10/12/2023 - I messaged Nano about my projects and tried to make them easier for her to do.

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11/17/2023 - Red asked Nano about her current projects. We were thinking about model plans with another artist at this time because of Nano’s busy schedule lately, although nothing ended up coming of it. This is when Red allegedly manipulated Nano and forced her to cancel Silvervale’s model.

Red: My “Oof” reaction in this screenshot was due to the number of projects she had on her to do list, not about who was on it. This was the first time I had seen Nano would be working with Bao on a model.

Red: I was asking questions about Bao’s design here to find out if it would be compatible with Boss Rush’s theme, “like a lore outfit.” Boss Rush was only an idea between me and Sinder at the time, but we knew what the concept would eventually be, just not who would be included.

Red: We were very loyal to Nano when it came to our models. This was during a time where there were significant upgrades in the overall model art and rigging quality in the vtuber sphere, and more and more people were going to Nano for models, taking up more of her time.

Red: This is the first time I said anything about Nano’s models being “less special” if everyone had one. This was about supply and demand, and the perceived value of Nano’s models if they weren’t as scarce. Like I said above, this was not to discredit the quality of her work or her talent as an artist.

Red: “Gotta do what ya gotta do to stay relevant”, or staying competitive in the vtuber sphere, in a general sense.

Red: Nano said it’d be an honor to keep making Sinder’s models, but if she chose to work with someone else she said “it is what it is.” Almost like it was “just business.”

Red: To be clear, my comment above saying “we take pride in calling you her artist” was not about owning Nano or keeping her from working with anyone else. It was because Nano’s art and style had become synonymous with Sinder and her brand, and she was the artist we personally prioritized and supported over all others. I also mention to Nano the pressure Sinder and I felt even back then to constantly be doing more new and exciting things, which led to how unhealthy our work life balance eventually became.

Red: Just by talking about our plans to Nano she said I was “making her rethink her current waitlist”, calling Sinder “the best baby I got tbh.”

Above, Red said to Nano, “You and your husband need a house.” Before I’m accused of not censoring that personal information and outing her, it’s public on Nano’s Twitter profile that Mio is her husband. He is also her manager.

https://x.com/nanoless_

Red: After Nano said she was rethinking her waitlist I said I won’t stop her if she wanted to make more time for us. She responded saying she was thinking about getting rid of the later ones. I thought Nano should keep Bao on her list because she was Sinder’s friend, but I didn’t want to take a solid stance on it if Nano was thinking about removing her herself. Nano said here she really wanted to work with Bao.

Red: Nano told me Bao’s model was planned for June. Then 2 minutes after I asked her what she could get rid of she showed me she removed Silvervale’s and Cotton’s model from her waitlist. Then she said she was going to blame it on Mio, her manager and husband, because “she’s dying” with her commissions.

Red: I didn’t ask Nano to cancel anyone’s models. She chose to cancel Cotton and Silver’s models herself. Even though I was biased about Silvervale, I had nothing against Cotton back then and didn’t even say anything once to Nano about her, yet she chose to cancel her model too. She said she was "feeling more light”, implying that she really was dying with her commissions. I told her she should do what’s best for herself. After Nano first showed me her new waitlist I told Sinder she canceled Silvervale’s model, she was trying to buy a house, and that we could give her more work to help her. She was excited to do as much as we could for Nano.

Nano told me about Silver’s model in July, but it was only canceled here in November. If I was the one who had Silver’s model canceled, why did I tell her it was okay, and then wait 4 months to “force and manipulate” Nano to cancel it? Why would Nano have been able to tell me no in July about Silvervale and then never again, or about anyone else?

Here’s Nano canceling the model with Silver in their dms, blaming Mio and her workload. This screenshot is from Silver’s document.

Here is my message to Silver two days before Red’s conversation with Nano even happened, on 11/15/2023. This message was framed in Silver’s document as me taunting her while Red and I were supposedly plotting against her, which is completely untrue. My message to her was genuine. The full context of my dms with Silvervale are in her section of the document.

I replied to Nano’s tweet showing off mine and Silver’s merch the night before Red had this conversation with her too.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1725379647024619754

As you read from the conversation above, Red didn’t ask or make Nano cancel Silver’s model.

Image from Silver’s document:

This is what Red told Nano in May about working with Silver.

In July, Nano told Red that Silver was still her client, no matter how he may have felt about it.

And here’s Nano in her own public Discord server the very next day on November 18th saying she’s “healthier and less stressed” after choosing to remove Silver and Cotton from her commission waitlist.

But here’s Nano’s reaction on 4/26/25 to finding out about my message to Silver, and the image of how it was portrayed in Silver’s document. Nano would’ve known exactly what happened with Silver’s model.

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1916268553465954367

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11/19/2023 - Nano told Red that Giri approached her about a model. I chose to leave her name uncensored here since I had mentioned her in my apology after finding out about it:

“And I was never even aware Nano was ever planning to work on a model for another of my friends, Giri.”

Red talked about another project with Nano between these screenshots.

Red: I was half kidding when I told Nano about paying for her to not work with Silver on a model because she had just canceled her model 2 days earlier. Nano then said I was right, “this is business world” in reference to what I said about paying her not to work with Silver. Which is the exact opposite to what mine and Sinder’s later comments about “business” meant.

Unrelated conversation continues again between these screenshots.

Red: My reaction towards Giri inquiring about a model had nothing to do with Giri at all, and I’ve never had anything against her. It was about more and more people wanting Nano’s models in general, not anyone in particular, and this was right after Nano had just removed 2 models from her schedule. I never told Sinder about Giri because it never went anywhere and there was no reason to. I hoped Silver would find someone else to do her model so she wouldn’t come back to Nano for one. Unlike Sinder, by this point in time I had already basically written off Silvervale because of the underserved way she treated her.

Jumping ahead again.

Red: Nano asked me when she should have Bao’s model done. Nowhere do I say she should cancel it. Nano suggested she may get it done sooner than June.

Red: Nano refers to herself as a “dedicated Sinder slave” after our conversation, which isn’t something I ever implied she’d be, or that I wanted her to only work with us.

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11/20/2023 - Someone I worked with asked me about how it was working with Nano since one of their friends was commissioning her for a model. A few days after their message I responded, praising Nano.

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11/23/2023 - Red messaged Nano about me and one of my model sisters. We didn’t have a problem with sharing Nano as a model mama with anyone, and I’ve always supported them.

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11/25/2023 - Nano voiced her concerns to Red about their previous conversations where she got the impression Red wanted her to only make models for me, and the confusion around it is cleared up between them. This situation shows that Nano was capable of putting her foot down and making decisions for herself, despite any accused manipulation.

Red: I was confused because I never told Nano she should only be working with Sinder from now on, and I didn’t ask her to cancel anything either. I stated I thought that the more she made the “less special” they were, and talked about Sinder’s plans, then she canceled 2 models. I thought it was because she wanted to do more with us. To be fair to Nano, I didn’t explain my point of view about her models at all, but I didn’t bring it up to somehow manipulate her. It came down to a conflict of interest from my client perspective and her artist perspective.

First of all, this way of thinking about the value of Nano’s models was my thought process, and Sinder understood and went along with it. Not everyone will feel or see the way I did here, and that’s okay, because I don’t think this is a right or wrong issue. It just comes down to what each person values as a vtuber, artist, or a viewer. This shows just how much we admired Nano and her work that we were putting her on a pedestal. This had nothing to do with the idea that other people with her models would be “Sinder clones”, or that her work was less incredible because there was more of it.

To me it was a matter of supply and demand. Just like a rare trading card, the more models Nano made, and the more often she would, the less valuable they’d become for the people who have them. Nano’s models are all of incredible quality, extremely unique, and highly sought after, but they’d each individually be “less special”, or valuable, if there were 100 of them rather than only 10. From a vtuber’s perspective, your visual identity is extremely important. A model isn’t just any other asset. Your design, your model, and its art style are a huge part of what makes them who they are and how they’re represented and recognized. It’s an extension of yourself. The fewer vtubers with their model’s art style, the more unique it is to have it. They stand out more, and it becomes a more personal, defining feature of and to that vtuber, representing that artist. We all know of at least one vtuber who has the only model from a certain artist, or one of a handful of models from them. The more models that artist makes, and the easier it is to get one, will inherently lessen the perceived value of the vtubers’ visual identities who have those models.

I only thought this way over models because of the role and importance they play for a vtuber, and the importance Nano’s art was to our brand. It was never about who was asking Nano for a model, just that more and more people were. More new model clients meant more recurring model clients, meaning less time for anything we wanted to do with Nano, which is why we considered an exclusivity deal in January 2025. My priority has always been our plans and our schedule. Everything a vtuber does revolves around new model debuts. Merch, music, events, and more are all planned around a new model or outfit as a centerpiece. That’s why I always asked Nano about her schedule and where she could fit in our plans at the consistent pace we’ve always. That way we could keep up with the pressure to always do bigger and better things, all around new models.

On the other hand, as you’ll read, I could also completely sympathize with Nano’s perspective as an artist. In an artist’s view, they want their art to be everywhere, and seen by as many people as possible, and have more and more people appreciate their craft, hard work, and love they put into what they do. More artwork for more clients means more of their work will be seen by more people, leading to more new clients and more new opportunities to sustain themselves financially. New ideas and new concepts that come in keep work exciting and prevent creatively burning out from doing the same thing over and over again with the same older clients. When Nano told me how she felt I was 100% on board with what she was saying and had no reason to argue against her. Even if my priority has always been Sinder’s projects, I also cared about and prioritized Nano as my friend and what she wanted to do for herself. I apologized to Nano for the confusion and accepted her decision without any pushback.

When I said “Business is business” in these messages it was referring to the fact that Nano made a business decision that was best for her, even if it wasn’t necessarily what I wanted, and I respected it, didn’t hold it against her, and worked around it with her.

Red: I was completely understanding and sympathetic to Nano’s side of things and working with Silvervale. The drama she was talking about was about Silvervale. I never asked her not to, or to cancel her model, but if she wanted to work with Silver then there was nothing I was going to say to stop her. It was her business decision and I respected it, just like I always had. “Business is business.”

In Red’s message at the bottom, he was joking. Of course I was okay with Nano’s decision, and my conversation with Nano about this is below.

Red: Just like before, I told Nano she needs to do what’s best for her. I didn’t say anything about Silver in our conversation where Nano canceled her model.

Red: Nano: “I might be able to, considering I’ll only take Silver back.” Again, I did not say anything about Cotton, but Nano canceled her model anyway and never took it back.

Red: Once again, saying “Business is business” here is me telling Nano that no matter what her decision on Giri’s model was, I would accept whatever outcome she chose. I didn’t want to affect her decision about it, and Giri never came up between us again.

I asked Nano if she told Silver she canceled her model because of Sinder because before this Nano was under the impression I asked her to only work with us, when I didn’t. She canceled Silver’s model at the end of that same conversation. I didn’t know what she might’ve told Silver, but Sinder had nothing to do with it.

Red: I apologized to Nano for all of this again, and both her and I were satisfied.

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11/26/2023 - Here are my own dms with Nano about what happened, where I say “it’s just business.” Red told me about his conversation with Nano before she messaged me and my use of the phrase had the same meaning as his, since Nano just heard it from him.

In my apology I said:

“Me saying "it's just business" was referring to my acceptance of Nano's business decisions, whether she chose to work with me or not. This was not in reference to anyone's model being canceled, further explaining to her that it's okay if she chooses not to work with me. I can understand where the next part can sound manipulative, but my intention was to reminisce about the journey we had together up to this point, since at this time I wasn't sure if this is where Nano and I would stop working together as frequently as we had been, and I'd have to look for a new model artist. I then encourage her to work on projects she's excited about while I talk with Red to find a project that would work with her schedule.”

When she came to me about what they’ve been talking about, Nano told me she thought and chose to cancel models because of what Red said. Red only expressed his opinion to her. He didn’t ask or imply for her to cancel anything on anyone, and when she came to him about it, he understood and sympathized with her view.

I understood what Red’s reasoning was in the screenshot Nano sent, but no matter what she chose to do, it was just business.

Since it has been completely ignored in my apology, deceptively misinterpreted, and turned into a meme, let me explain again what I meant by “It’s just business” when I used the phrase myself. If Nano had chosen to pause, delay, or cancel any planned or future work with me, for any reason she would give me - whether due to other clients, burnout, or any other reason, then it was “just business.” Both Red and I had repeatedly reassured Nano over the years that there was nothing she could say or do to make us choose to stop working with her, and nothing about our work together would ever make me rethink the friendship I had with her. Our feelings did not dictate Nano’s business and commission decisions. We always made accommodations for her to be able to work with us when she could, and she was always willing and excited to do things with us. If she had come to us herself saying she didn’t want to work with us ever again, then that was just business.

Neither of our comments were made trying to convince her to sabotage or cancel any projects for anyone else using “business” to justify it. “It’s just business” was used in this conversation, about this situation alone, to tell Nano we accepted what she wanted to do. I don’t remember using the phrase anywhere else again, but it has been turned into this catchphrase I’ve allegedly had all along to sabotage people.

If you were to present my conversation with Nano first, without any of the context of Red’s discussion with her happening just before this, it could look like I was directly responding to Nano’s message about canceling other people’s models as “just business.” This is how it was presented in Nano’s document. You’d also have to ignore everything else I said in that same message to Nano, and everything else from this same conversation that referenced what Red had told Nano the day before. When you have the full context of this situation in the order it happened in, my “it’s just business” comment means something completely different than what it was deceptively portrayed as to the public.

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11/27/2023 - Nano told Red she was going to take Silver’s model back. Two days later, she told him that Silver might have found another artist and was waiting for confirmation. Nano had plenty of time to tell Silver she’d take back her model if she wanted to, but never did. Nano and Silver blamed us for her model being canceled.

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12/10/2023 - 12/12/2023 - Nano told Red she wouldn’t be taking any commissions until February for a break. Red asked her when she’d be able to start my winter outfit starting screen art and she told him mid January.

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2/16/2024 - Red told Nano that one of my future model sisters showed me her model Nano was working on. We were on an irl trip in February 2024 when this new sister first told Red and I that they were working with her. We were both excited for them and expressed how wonderful it was to work with Nano.

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2/17/2024 - Red moving projects around to accommodate Nano. We preferred all of my model artwork to be done by her.

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5/21/2024 - Messages I had with Nano showing I was happy for her about projects she was working on.

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5/31/2024 - Nano told Red she was feeling burnt out, and he said we’d delay my next model for her when she was ready for it. We wanted Nano to be the one who made all of my major models and outfits. We had no problem waiting for her like we had in the past.

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6/3/2024 - Red asked Nano about a merch artwork commission, giving her the opportunity before anyone else.

Red: We left out a Pyro Pup floatie toggle from Sinder’s bikini model to not copy Lily’s, which had debuted earlier in the year.

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6/10/2024 - My own messages with Nano where I helped her with an audio question. I was always willing to help Nano, or any of my friends, when I was asked for advice or help.

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6/25/2024 - Nano told Red that she may be looking to focus on more projects with me because she was getting fewer commissions, and would be taking less too. We were her most loyal and repetitious client.

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7/1/2024 - Nano delivered a project to Red, and a collab with her comes up again.

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7/6/2024 - While at Anime Expo, Red and I made sure we were there to see Nano at her first ever meet and greet.

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7/23/2024 - One of my friends messaged me asking about working with Nano. I’ve never dissuaded anyone from working with Nano, or said anything bad about her.

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7/23/2024 - 7/26/2024 - Red asked Nano if she knew when Bao’s model was going to debut so we could plan our schedule around it, like we’ve done in the past with other people she’s worked with. It was the end of July and he thought her model was already finished. The last time Nano had mentioned it to him was in November, and she told him she planned to have it done in June. We saw the design at Weebcon in March when Bao showed us.

Red: Sinder’s angel model was booked for October. I was also excited for what I thought was a model she was making for someone else.

Red: Nano told me she didn’t want to take anyone from her public commission form so she can do more streaming herself, saying she wanted to “move on with her own brand”, and work with Sinder until we chose not to anymore. I encouraged her and offered her my help.

Red: Nano brings up the idea of canceling models first after expressing she wanted to do her own thing, and that she “honestly would” if she didn’t feel committed to them.

Red: I asked about Bao being one of the finished models that hadn’t debuted yet because I was under the impression Bao was already done. Nano told me her model wasn’t even started. Me saying to her that “we’ll find a new mama” for being busy was a joke, like earlier in the conversation when I joked about firing her.

Red: Out of nowhere Nano asked me “do you think bao would kill me if i cancel with her?” She was already considering canceling it on her own. This was a huge difference from how she felt about Bao’s model last November.

I told Nano I thought she should do what was best for her, that less model work meant she could do what she wanted to sooner, and we’d help her with streaming. From my own experience with Bao I thought she could be whiny and pushy when things didn’t go her way, so I thought she’d complain and guilt trip Nano. I was being honest with my friend about another friend. I never asked her to cancel Bao’s model, or any other model. Nano told me she was already thinking about it, plus canceling another vtuber’s model, so this wasn’t just about Bao. Nano could’ve said anyone’s model and I still would’ve said the same thing if that’s what she thought was best for her, and her doing so agreed with how I thought about more Nano models. She told me Bao’s model hadn't even been started either, and I assumed all that was done must’ve been the design. I was closer to Nano than I was to Bao, so I was for supporting Nano with what she wanted to do over telling her to keep any projects she was already considering canceling. None of this context was shown in Nano’s or Bao’s documents.

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7/31/2024 - 8/1/2024 - Nano was involved in drama with a Live2D rigger. I thought it was important to bring up how Nano reacted and responded to the situation.

Nano made a public callout post about this Live2D rigger she’s worked with in the past after seeing someone else’s post about them.

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1818535613987000393

Nano admitted she never communicated with the person she publicly called out.

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1818537926591918176

Nano said she could stand up to clients and refuse to work with them if they were having their model rigged by this person.

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1818541376130179414

Here are Red’s dms with Nano the day this happened. He talked to Nano about two new models she made, and showed her support over this drama. Nano had no problems with gossiping with Red.

Red: Some of my messages here aged really well.

As stated in this rigger’s now deleted tweet, Nano “removed herself from direct conversation, and used emotional language to attack and rally rather than actually caring about fixing (the problem)”

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8/4/2024 - 8/5/2024 - Red asked Nano if she decided to cancel any model projects like they had talked about before. He did not name anyone.

Red: The reason why I followed up and asked Nano if she had canceled anything was because it could possibly affect our project schedule with her. Nano said she “Didn’t cancel anything yet.” She did not tell me she decided not to cancel anything at all. Then she told me to give her a moment about it. She told me previously there were at least 2 models she was considering canceling.

There were unrelated messages about my own project they were talking about between these screenshots.

Red: I bumped Nano again about 6 hours later and she said someone was replying to her now.

Red: Another 20 minutes later is when I say to Nano “DID YOU CANCEL MODELS?”It was in all caps because of the previous messages sent and the fact I still hadn’t heard anything from her about it. She said she didn’t, and I said her “arc” of doing what she wanted to do would be delayed far into the future, joking with her like I always had.

Red: Nano brought up Bao again saying she’s scared to cancel with her. She didn’t say she chose not to cancel any of her projects, or that she didn’t want to cancel with Bao anymore, only that she was scared to do it, which explained why she hadn’t canceled anything yet. I was not the one to bring up Bao, again, and I didn’t specify anyone we had previously talked about. I reassured Nano about it and told her I thought she should be at least somewhat paid for the design she made and the work she put into it. My thought that Bao could possibly “start shit” over this was the same as I said before, where I thought she’d complain or guilt trip Nano over it. Nano agreed with me, then said she regretted opening her other model applications in the first place. All of the leadup to this conversation was left out of Nano’s and Bao’s documents.

Red: 45 minutes after, Nano said she was able to start on Sinder’s angel model right away, when earlier she said she wasn’t able to and had planned to start in October.

This was all Red told me in our dms right after he talked to Nano.

Later that night, Red told me Nano was going to cancel Bao’s model because she wanted to stream more and focus on her own vtubing career. He said we would help her out, and that Nano was able to start on my heavenhound model early now. I felt bad for Bao because I saw how excited she was about the design she showed us in person, but I was under the impression that this was what Nano wanted. She was my friend too, and I wasn’t going to pressure her to do something she didn’t want to do. I didn’t see Red’s messages and only knew what he told me.

Red: If I really wanted Nano to cancel Bao’s model for some malicious reason, and knew I could make her do it through some kind of manipulation, why would I have waited 8 months after I first found out about it in November of 2023 and told Nano she shouldn’t? Why did I wait 4 months after Weebcon in March 2024 when Bao showed it to us? Why, when I thought Bao’s model was already finished in June like she told me it was planned for, would I have gone out of my way to make Nano cancel it now? Although I was closer with Nano, Bao was still a friend, and I didn’t have any problems with her back then. My opinion of how she could respond to Nano canceling on her doesn’t change that. Nano has worked with multiple friends of ours in the past and it wasn’t a problem, including Bao in this situation. I was supporting what Nano expressed to me she wanted to do for herself, and as her friend I reassured her it would be okay.

This wasn’t for Nano to have more time for us instead of anything she had planned. The only projects we had upcoming with Nano at this time was Sinder’s angel model and starting screen art, which we were content with being started in October, like Nano told me before. It was only after all of this that Nano told me she could start it earlier, which affected our project timeline. That’s why I asked if she decided to cancel anything, but I didn’t expect her to move our project up.

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8/6/2024 - Red messaged Nano and asked how her conversation with Bao went.

Red: Nano said she was scared to talk to Bao, so being her friend I asked how it went. If Bao’s design was done, and the model wasn’t even started, like Nano told me it wasn’t, then I didn’t think it was a problem if Bao could just take the design to another model artist. Hypothetically, I thought there still would’ve been time to hit her planned Valentines debut window Nano told me about.

Red: The whole situation was wrong of both of us. Nano shouldn’t have asked me about what she wanted to do with her other commissions, and I shouldn’t have weighed in on what I thought. I’m sorry to Bao for my actions and that this happened at all.

It was after this when Bao messaged our group chat with our friends saying that Nano dropped her as a client. I felt guilty knowing about this before Bao had told us. I didn’t know what to say so I didn’t say anything. I was the one who was known to always work with Nano, but if this was her decision I didn’t want to get involved. I should’ve been a better friend to Bao and at least tried doing something for her, but I didn’t.

After I posted my apology on 4/27/2025, Bao tweeted this, talking about her model being canceled last August asking how I didn’t know about it. It was a standalone tweet, not as a reply to my apology, and not quoting it either.

https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1916603928789369299

I was aware that in this instance Bao’s model was canceled, and before she said anything. I haven’t claimed otherwise anywhere, and I didn’t say anything about it in my apology. I was not aware of Red giving Bao’s name to Nano in his exclusivity negotiations in January 2025.

This is what I said:

“Regarding the exclusivity deal made between them, I had no part in the direct negotiations of their eventual agreement, and I had no knowledge of Bao and Cotton being included in this list. If I had known my friends were included I would've said something to put a stop to it.”

After Bao posted, I messaged the one friend that could get a message to her since she had already unfriended me and I had no way to contact her. Red and I had a falling out the night the documents dropped, and we didn’t live together anymore either, so I had no way to access his dms myself to go back and see everything he was saying and doing to make sure it was right. All I had to go off of was what Red told me in August about this, what was posted in Nano and Bao’s documents, and now Bao’s tweet after my apology. I don’t know if she ever got this message, and she never reached out to talk. I told this friend that I didn’t know the model was canceled because of Red’s conversation with Nano, and not that I didn’t know it was canceled at all.

This is the same friend I messaged before about Red and I.

In Bao’s tweet, she said that before her model was canceled in August of 2024, they “were so close to begin Live2D and rigging.”

And in Nano’s document it said that “Red asked me to cancel on one of their closest friends (Bao) by asking me to cancel my work mid progress”, followed by saying “Red contacted me specifically to check on me canceling the model I had planned with Bao.” Neither of which were actually shown, or true.

A little over a week before Bao’s model was canceled, Nano told Red that Bao’s model hadn’t even been started. And as you’ve seen, Red never asked Nano to cancel Bao’s model.

How could it have been canceled mid progress and close to being rigged if it wasn’t started? And if it was so close to rigging, why would Nano have even considered canceling it instead of just finishing it?

I’d think Bao would’ve said if her model was cancelled mid progress in her messages to me and our friends if it was, instead of just that she was dropped as a client.

In Bao’s document she said “there was suddenly back and forth on whether or not (Nano) had the physical and mental capacity to continue (her) model.”

Which lines up with what Nano said to Red, and how Nano repeatedly overbooked herself, but was never shown anywhere.

Bao saying there was a “back and forth” also could imply that Nano already approached her saying she may not continue her model before August 5th when Red messaged Nano .

Also, Red didn’t contact Nano to “specifically check on Nano canceling Bao’s model” like was claimed. He messaged her to see if she decided to cancel any other projects she expressed interest in canceling that Nano previously mentioned.

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8/18/2024 - Another conversation between Red and Nano to show how Nano was treated, trying to plan my collab with her, and Red complimenting art Nano did for someone else.

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8/28/2024 - After over a year of Red and I encouraging Nano to come on my stream, we finally had our first collab together. It was on her birthday, by Mio’s suggestion to Red.

https://youtu.be/R_l-_o7JIgs

7/15/2024 - 7/19/2024

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8/29/2024 - 9/17/2024 - My dms with Nano after she was on my stream, celebrating another one of her models debuting, and our messages around my birthday.

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9/27/2024 - Nano told Red she was up to take on more of our work, followed by another instance that shows how Nano was treated.

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9/29/2024 - About two months after canceling Bao’s model, Nano asked Red about us paying for her to cancel her projects. She brought up the possibility of some kind of exclusivity deal to Red for the first time, saying she “just wants to do Sinder stuff.”

This is what I said about Nano accepting my projects in my apology:

“Everytime I had been told that Nano had agreed to work on a new commission with me, it had been willingly and with excitement. From my point of view it was that she genuinely wanted to be working on these things. I wanted to work with Nano as much as I possibly could, making her art the face of my brand.”

This was followed by her canceling a long list of model projects herself for a bunch of different vtubers after filling up her waitlist with more projects than she could reasonably take on again.

“Of her own volition, Nano canceled a large portion of her model commissions last September.”

This entire conversation was left out of Nano’s document, and all of the blame for these model cancellations was put on me and Red. If you were one of the six vtubers who had a project with Nano canceled around this time, this was what happened. Once again, I had no involvement in this conversation and was only told about what happened afterwards.

Red: Nano asked me if we’d be willing to pay for her to cancel all of her commissions for other vtubers that aren’t Sinder related.

Red: Nano told me she’s freaking out with her commissions, because she’s accepted too many, and just wants to do Sinder stuff, plus her own things, exactly like she’s been telling me for months. What happened with Bao’s model was a precursor to this. She is the first one to suggest the possibility of exclusivity to me, showing she had interest in making an exclusivity deal with Sinder and I as far back as September 2024.

Red: I was open to the idea of exclusivity but the details needed to be figured out. If Nano chose to keep working with us we’d always have something for her to do. I asked Nano to clarify and yes, she suggested we pay for her to cancel on 6 other vtubers. I wasn’t going to pay Nano just to cancel other projects, except Silvervale who I said as a joke, but if she chose to cancel them herself we’d help replace the income with our own stuff.

I chose to leave the list of names uncensored here so these people know exactly how and why their models were canceled, since it was falsely blamed on me and Red.

Red: Nano wanted us to pay for her to cancel these 7 commissions for other people. If we were to pay her the price of them just to cancel them, it would’ve cost us $40,000 to $50,000.

Red: Focusing on Sinder and her own content was Nano’s dream. I told her we’d give her everything we could, but warned I didn’t know she’d be making the same money as she would from these model commissions.

Red: I asked Nano what she wanted to work on, and then she decided to cancel everything herself.

Red: Nano canceled everything because she accepted too much, saying she was thinking about doing this for a long time, like she told me two months earlier leading up to canceling with Bao.

Red: Nano was more than able to make her own business decisions and cancel projects herself, just like in November of 2023, all without me allegedly manipulating her.

In her own TOS, Nano states that she can cancel anything she’s already agreed to or started on at any time, for any reason. She still lied that these cancellations were all because of us.

https://nanoless.carrd.co/#terms

——————————

9/30/2024 - A month after my one on one collab with Nano, I planned a collab with her, my model rigger, and two of my model sisters.

https://youtu.be/DRFmDwOYnVI

My model sisters were my friends, and not just the ones shown here. The claims that I tried to sabotage them or had anything against them, or any of my other friends, due to working with Nano or having her art is blatantly untrue. In my apology I said:

“Nano has an amazing skill where she's able to draw each of her vtuber children uniquely, so I was never upset seeing new model siblings. In many cases I was there cheering them on at their debuts, and looking to collab with them as "sisters” when I could.”

Here are another two collabs I planned with my two model sisters above. The fact we both had Nano models was celebrated between us.

10/4/2023

https://youtu.be/RXddzberkmc

4/22/2024

https://youtu.be/kgUxSn-ynP4

Here are my conversations with each of them about their new models with Nano. I left these conversations uncensored.

5/11/2023

3/2/2024

And here’s two streams where I supported my model sister Buffpup’s game development endeavors by playing her games on my stream, telling my fans to support her too, because she was my friend.

11/11/2023

https://youtu.be/OV7ypCFmvK8?si=FbbLT98RPdqxFl42

3/21/2025

https://youtu.be/XZgCIkQ8bSo?si=xwZ7FSlKMyc2FQ3P

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10/3/2024 - Red messaged Nano to support her about her stream that day, and about our projects.

——————————
11/5/2024 - Red worked with Nano to make sure our projects were spaced to accommodate her.

——————————

12/5/2024 - One of my brand new model sisters organized a Nano model sister collab with me and another one of our model sisters. I was happy to agree to it and also streamed it myself. Red sent Nano a picture of us together. This was the one we found out about in February on our irl trip.

https://youtu.be/HNSpQ-RaPZc

——————————
12/7/2024 - 12/14/2024 - Another example of how Nano was treated by Red.

Red: I never followed up with Nano about the short hair design I was talking about since it wasn’t a big deal.

Red: After Nano won her VTuber Award she posted an image of her current and upcoming models. She told me who these 3 models were, with one being for one of the people Sinder praised Nano to.

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1868112617132507415

Here are my own messages with Nano after she won VTuber Parent of the Year.

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12/27/2024 - 12/31/2024 - Another conversation between Red and Nano. As you can see over the course of their messages, Nano’s worked with many other people besides us and it was never a problem. Red often praised her work regardless of who she was working with.

Red: My message wishing Nano luck was about this:

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1873493177417802050

——————————

The next event in the timeline with Nano was when she and Red made their exclusivity deal. But before we go over that, I want to address why we thought to ask her about exclusivity in the first place.

There was another person we were consistently working with, and that was Artist #1. They wanted to discuss a permanent, paid position with us, and suggested some kind of exclusivity for the work they did. Just like with Nano, Red handled any business related discussions with them. There is more that happened with Artist #1 in Bao’s and Silvervale’s sections of this document.

1/9/2024 - Artist #1 messaged Red to pitch him their idea.

1/10/2024 - Artist #1 messaged Red the next morning about our video editor, and then said they’d be willing to offer some kind of exclusivity due to “competitiveness in the field.” In the brief conversation Red and I had about it, we agreed that if we were going to pay them consistently for their work, like my video editor, we’d want to work out some kind of exclusivity with them.

The next time Red and I talked about this, he said we should ask Nano for some kind of exclusivity too. Nano had suggested exclusivity to him in September, and talking to Artist #1 gave him the idea to ask her about it again.

In my apology I said:

“We had come to the conclusion that it'd be in my best interest to talk with Nano about making more time for my projects by negotiating with her to cut out other work. This was wrong for us to push onto her, and it was wrong to the other creators who wanted the chance of working with her.”

What I should’ve said was “negotiating with her to take on less work.” We were never thinking about asking her to cut out or cancel anything she already had planned.

Red and I had agreed we should ask Nano to not accept any more brand new model clients, and to not make models or outfits for Silvervale anymore. Nano would have more time to work on my projects, and Silver wouldn’t be able to get another model from Nano, and I wouldn’t be compared to her if she chose to get a new one from someone else. Her artwork commissions and projects with her current model clients wouldn’t be touched.

This is what I said about Silvervale in my apology in regards to this exclusivity deal:

“So at the point I was working with Nano consistently we brought up not making any more models for her. If a vtuber model is how everyone recognizes you, then it'd be harder to compare us directly if we no longer look alike or have that shared similarity. It was a wrong and selfish decision, but it made me feel better, and that's why it was a constant topic with Nano. Red pushed for this harder than I ever did because he knew how it affected me for years, but no matter what the outcome was I wasn't going to walk away from working with Nano.”

I don’t know why I said it was a constant topic with Nano, or that Red pushed harder for this, other than being overly apologetic. Red only had any meaningful conversation about Silver with Nano in May and July of 2023, and two situations that involved her in November of 2023, and January of 2025.

“There was only one specific creator we were responsible for naming and pressuring Nano into reconsidering projects with, not an entire list.”

I was overly apologetic here and saying we were pressuring her was false. Red and I agreed to ask Nano about Silver when talking about exclusivity, which he did. The only projects Nano would have reconsidered would’ve been future ones. Hers was the only name Red and I discussed.

As for the exclusivity with Artist #1, Red and I had only agreed that we wanted to have it for their work, and didn’t talk about naming anyone to them.
——————————
1/15/2025 - This was when Nano and Red made their exclusivity deal. I didn’t know Red was planning to talk to her about it that day, or even knew he had until after they had already come to an agreement, without my involvement. Red brought this up to Nano in their private dms, and not in our project server chat where all three of us were.

The quotes from my apology above refer to this deal they made.

In Nano’s and Bao’s documents, this conversation was presented out of order and purposely left out information.

Red: This was the 2nd of 4 total times, with 3 different artists, I had ever specifically asked anyone to not work with someone else, which are all presented in this document. In this instance it was in negotiations for an exclusivity deal.

Red: What I told Nano we were looking for was exactly what Sinder and I agreed to. Not taking on any brand new model clients, and not to make any more models or outfits with Silvervale. Existing model clients and artwork commissions wouldn’t be affected. This was so Nano would have more time to focus on our projects, and was the only other time since November 2023 that I ever mentioned anything about the value of Nano’s models the more there were. I wanted to preserve the value of existing Nano models, like Sinder’s, and the more models Nano accepted, the more recurring clients she’d have, meaning she’d have less time for any projects we may ask her to for. Models were the most time consuming thing she did. We never considered including and cutting off any of Nano’s existing model clients since many of them were our friends, besides Silver. Sinder has always been supportive of anyone who’s debuted a model by Nano.

Red: I chose to include Bao’s name to get even with her for what I thought she did, which is explained in her section, and I threw Cotton’s name in there for hurting a friend and because I knew she was on Nano’s waitlist in the past. Neither of them were ever discussed with Sinder, and Sinder strongly disagreed with what I thought about Bao, but if I was going to make a deal with Nano then I wanted to try to include Bao at the very least. Including their names here was entirely on me.

I didn’t want them to be able to get a model from Nano, but I wasn’t looking to have her cancel anything on anyone. I knew Nano didn’t have anything lined up with Silver, the last time I heard she had Cotton down for a model was when she canceled it in 2023, and I was under the impression that Bao moved on to another artist after Nano canceled on her the first time in August, since that was the last time Nano mentioned it.

I had no idea Nano even had Bao on her to do list again, so I said it was fine to leave things as they were when Nano revealed it to me. I did feel bad about the idea of Nano canceling on Bao a second time, even if I didn’t want her to work with Nano, and I would’ve left it there. Nano asked me if I was sure, and said she’s not down to work with people Sinder didn’t want her to. Sinder only agreed to ask Nano about Silvervale and did not agree with me about Bao. Before this, I was using “we” and “our” like I would in any conversation with any one of our partners. But if Nano was okay with what she wanted, I made sure to tell her how “we both.” felt. In an overzealous attempt to get even with Bao, I took advantage of that and made it sound like Sinder agreed with my feelings about her when I knew it wasn’t true. It was the only time I lied about anything to Nano, and it was wrong of me to do this. Everything I said in this conversation were my own thoughts.

My hesitancy and Nano’s reassurance were both left out of Nano’s and Bao’s documents.

I knew about what happened with Cotton and a friend and I distanced myself from her because of it. But I absolutely do not agree that it was a good reason for Red to involve her. What happened had nothing to do with me and it wasn’t our place to do anything like this because of it.

What Red described to Nano below was his incorrect theory about Bao making her editor Sacramore go exclusive with her because of Boss Rush’s music video he made. I knew he thought this way in December but I never agreed with him and he held it against her. I was completely unaware that any of this was told to Nano. I should’ve talked to Bao about it but I never did.

Red: My comment about Silvervale and Gamer Supps was based on our personal opinion about things we saw. Silver using her 3D model predominantly at the time was one way we justified asking Nano this. I didn’t say anything about Sinder’s insecurities about comparisons between them, but Sinder talked to Nano about it when Nano went to her about canceling our agreement.

My message about Cotton was cut out of the screenshot in Nano’s document, but not in Bao’s document. I don’t know why Nano would do that herself, and would later say to me “I don’t really care about Bao and Cotton.” Nano’s messages saying “i rather work with Sinder than Bao dw, being Sinder’s mom means a lot to me” were removed as well, and this was framed as me showering her with love to manipulate her, instead of it being me responding to what she said like what actually happened.

When I told Nano that Bao’s song’s “flopped” I was referring to how Bao thought of them, implying that I thought it was motivation for her to do what I was telling Nano. This wasn’t explained to Nano at the time, but it’s explained in Bao’s section.

“Plus none of this can leave our chat” and “AGAIN THIS IS ALL SECRET TALK” was to keep this from everyone, including Sinder.

The image of the chat from Nano’s document with the message about Cotton edited out:

The image of the chat from Bao’s document containing the message about Cotton:

Red: I was mad at Bao for what I thought was her gatekeeping her music video editor, Sacramore, from working with us on any other music videos. The other things I said about Bao here were all non issues that became a list of grievances after what I thought she did. There are more details about this in Bao’s section of the document. It sounded so harsh because I was angry about it, and I was venting to someone I trusted about something I genuinely believed happened. I thought that if she was going to gatekeep her editor, then I was going to try gatekeeping our artist. I couldn’t see what I thought happened making sense any other way. Everything I said here I believed, and was true to my own observations and experiences. They were not lies I was making up just because. I now know I was wrong. Nano was the only person I told my feelings and theory about Bao to other than Sinder.

Red: Nano said “OH, WE CAN DO A DEAL”, “ill cancel my model with bao, LIKE FOR EVER”, and then suggested I pay for her own model rigging in return below, which she’d discount from our next project payment. Nano made me an offer to cancel Bao’s model that’d benefit her, and was okay with doing it for what’d ultimately zero out to nothing. This was not shown in Nano’s or Bao’s documents.

Red: Nano told me we’d have to make a separate deal for new model clients, separate from her proposed idea about Bao’s cancellation and her model rigging payment. That deal is what she earlier said she’d want some kind of payment for. Instead of focusing on new model clients, I chose to focus on the people I listed to her, and offered the deal above. She said she wanted some kind of payment agreement for new model exclusivity, which “would be another deal”, but I didn’t refuse to pay her for it like was claimed. The original proposition was only over models, but since I pivoted and new model clients were off the table and we were just talking about these 3, I suggested that it include all work. I told her she wouldn’t have to pay us the few thousand for her rigging back from her offer, and I’d guarantee her as many projects as she wanted. She worked with Silver occasionally, never with Cotton, and only with Bao on her model, so she wouldn’t be missing out on income we wouldn’t be ready to replace.

Red: Nano: “it do be fair but… ok, can i ask for Demon sinder figure?”, “yay deal”

Red: Nano and I went back and forth and negotiated a deal and we both agreed to it. It was a deal made on each other’s word, and there was no contract involved. She had equal say in what she’d want or need out of our deal before agreeing to it. She was fully aware of what she was agreeing to and was completely capable of turning me down if she had chosen to, and I would’ve accepted that like always.

But If I knew all along I could just manipulate Nano to do whatever I wanted, like I had allegedly done before, including canceling models, why didn’t I just do that instead of making any kind of deal with her in the first place? This was a mutual agreement made between both of us. She made the offer to cancel Bao’s model, we negotiated, and both of us agreed to the deal we made. But the end of this conversation and the final terms of our deal were never shown in Nano’s document.

Also, I didn’t refuse to pay for exclusivity like it was falsely claimed in her document. I was absolutely open to exclusivity payments just like I was to Artist #1, our video editor, shown in Bao’s section, and Artist #2 in Silvervale’s section. Nano suggested it for model exclusivity, but like she said, that “would be another deal.” I moved on from that to focus on the 3 people I brought up, and both sides agreed to this deal without revisiting the idea of payments again, other than us paying for her model rigging.

There was no manipulation and I didn’t lie to her about what I actually believed at the time.

I did, and always have, cared about our friends. I was under the impression that what Bao did was against me, Sinder, Tricky, and Vienna, and Cotton hurt another one of our friends I cared about. I made this mistake in trying to do what I thought was right by them at the time, without considering the people it would affect.

——————————

After this happened, I was told Nano agreed she wouldn’t work with Silvervale at all anymore, we’d continue working with Nano on lots of projects like we’ve always done, we’d fully pay for Nano’s new model’s rigging, and she’d be sent a free demon figure. Red never told me that Bao and Cotton were ever talked about or included in their agreement, or that Bao had another model that was canceled. Their deal didn’t include the part about Nano not taking any new model clients we had talked about before, but I was okay with leaving it as I was told it was.

Like I said in my apology:

There is nothing tangible I can show to prove that I didn’t know what happened between them. I can’t prove I didn’t know something.

Red: I didn’t tell Sinder everything because I knew she disagreed with me about Bao and she’d get pissed. I was confident she wouldn’t find out about it though with how all of the business discussions with Nano were through me, and even if she did later then it would already be long done. Sinder wouldn’t have told Bao about it after the fact either. I was stubborn and wanted to get back at the kind of person I thought Bao was more than keeping Sinder’s feelings in mind. I didn’t mention Cotton’s name to Sinder either since I didn’t know how she’d react, and I didn’t want her to find out about Bao. She only agreed to Silver, so that’s all I told her.

——————————

1/15/2025 - Shortly after the deal was made with Nano and he told me about it, Red messaged Artist #1 about our thoughts on their agreement.

Red: When I said “There’s a few people we compete with that we’d rather withhold your work from if agreeable”, I was thinking of giving them the same names I had given Nano. They had told me recently that they started working with Bao, and they’ve worked with Silver in the past. Sinder and I didn’t talk about any names to give to Artist #1.

Red: Because Silver didn’t like Sinder, and I had something against Bao now, I considered Bao and Silvervale competition. Artist #1 didn’t know either of our thoughts on Silvervale or Bao, unlike what I told Nano. I didn’t bother to bring up Cotton’s name since she never interacted with Artist #1.

This was the 3rd of 4 total times, with 3 different artists, I had ever specifically asked anyone to not work with someone else, which are all presented in this document.

——————————

1/16/2025 - The next day Artist #1 sent Red a document that laid out everything in their agreement.

Red: Artist #1 sent a written agreement to go over. As far as I remember there was a carve out for both Silver and Bao, and I didn’t push for this to be changed. Regardless of what I said the night before, they were their clients already and left things open to work with them. I had them post it in our project server to discuss it there and where Sinder could see it herself. This agreement with Artist #1 never actually happened due to other reasons that delayed us finalizing things.
——————————
2/10/2025 - 2/20/2025 - Nano canceled the exclusivity deal she made with Red about a month after it was made so she could work with Silver. This conversation with Red wasn’t included at all in Nano’s document, only my dms with her. Nano faced no repercussions from either of us for going back on her word, and Silvervale didn’t lose out on any projects with Nano because of her agreement with Red.

Red: Nano: “I don’t really care about Bao and Cotton.”

Nano couldn’t keep her word on the deal she agreed to because Silvervale asked her for a commission. Silver lost no work with Nano. Just like in November of 2023, Silver was the tipping point for her, so I don’t know why she agreed to our deal to begin with. Nano still had no problem sharing with me exactly what she was doing for Silver over a week later. I never got confirmation from Nano that she canceled Bao’s model a 2nd time before or after she walked back our agreement, and I never asked. I had mostly moved on from my volatile feelings towards Bao, and I no longer considered her “competition”, even if I didn’t have a favorable opinion of her. She was still Sinder’s friend.

Nano went back on our agreement only a week after we paid for her model rigging on 2/3/2025, the one thing she asked for out of our deal.

——————————
2/11/2025 - Nano messaged me the next day about her walking back on the deal she made with Red. He had already talked with me about her canceling the agreement specifically to work with Silver on something. She didn’t mention Bao or Cotton at all to me, and Silver didn’t lose out on any opportunity with Nano due to this deal. Nano got tired of hearing about Silvervale and didn’t want to be involved in any issues regarding her, but didn’t say anything about keeping her out of drama to Red. She faced no backlash from Red or I from going back on her word. Even though I was upset because this was my last resort to try ending the comparisons between Silver and I, I was content with Nano working on what she wanted to and didn’t hold it against her, like always.

Quote about this from my apology:

“When Nano had messaged me about this agreement almost a month later I was under the assumption this was only about Silvervale. I was upset and my initial messages to her were very guilt trippy, but I wasn’t going to force Nano to do anything she wasn’t okay with and tried reassuring her that I was okay with her decision.”

Searching “bao” and “cotton” in my own dms with Nano:

——————————

4/9/2025 - In our project server, Red was telling Nano about our next model plans after my sleepy outfit debuted.

——————————
4/11/2025 - Red saw Nano working on a new model for Shylily for the first time. He messaged her and asked questions about the timeline of the model.

Red: I asked Nano about Lily and her projects just like I would any other time, and Nano gave me the information, just like she would any other time. I thought that Lily getting a model from Nano could possibly be related to how she was treating Sinder lately.

That night I saw Red and he told me Nano was working on a model for Shylily, but didn’t say anything about him asking Nano about it, or that he would. I was happy with the idea that Shylily and I were going to be model sisters, especially since we’re both part owners of the same company. Red thought we might have to consider that we’d be competing with Shylily with the way she was treating me and the fact she was working with Nano now, similar to how things were with Silvervale. I didn’t agree. In my mind, Shylily and I weren’t going to be “competing” for anything, and this would be another thing we’d have in common to hopefully bring us together. I was only concerned with why she would’ve been upset with me lately and was anxious about it.

——————————
4/12/2025 - The next day, Red went back to Nano to ask about Shylily again and tell her what I’ve been experiencing with her. These are also the last messages Red had with Nano, and the last conversation either of us had with her in either of our dms and project server. I had no knowledge of these conversations until Nano’s document was released two weeks later. Everything I was experiencing with Shylily at the time is explained in her section of this document.

In my apology I wrote:

“I had no idea there was even a conversation about Shylily recently between Red and Nano until reading her document. It's true I had confided in Red that lately I hadn't been hearing from Lily like I had in the past and was worried something was wrong, but that's as far as it went, and he took it upon himself to try digging for more info”

Red: I didn’t share any of this conversation or the conversation above with Sinder because there wasn’t anything super meaningful or pressing I thought she needed to know about.

Red: I followed up with Nano about Lily because of the way she was acting towards Sinder over the past few weeks. It really seemed like Lily had a problem with Sinder.

Red: I didn’t lie about anything I said here. Me saying “Ever since after VCard launched” was because around then was the last time I remembered them collabing and talking with each other, like I said after. I remembered Lily saying it was too soon to get a new model around the start of the year, but I didn’t consider the 3 to 4 months that passed when I said this, and obviously Lily changed her mind since then.

Red: This is the only time I ever said anything to anyone other than Sinder about competing with Lily. If Lily had a problem with Sinder, and at the same time started working with our model artist, then yes, we wouldn’t be working together anymore. In my mind we’d be competing with her, at the very least over Nano’s time. If Lily wasn’t treating Sinder differently, I wouldn’t have had any reason to think the timing of Lily’s model with Nano was suspect, and no reason to ask Nano anything when she started working on Lily’s model. I would’ve felt the same way about it that Sinder did.

Between these screenshots they were talking about something unrelated.

Red: I stayed informed with Nano’s plans because of who she was to us and our brand. It’s always been that way and it’s never been a problem with her. I said we have to stay competitive, as in a general sense with the entire vtuber sphere, “even when we sHoUlDnT hAvE tO” with someone like Lily who we thought was a friend, now acting this way.

Red: It wasn’t either of us who had a problem with Lily or treating her differently for no apparent reason.

Red: These are my last messages with Nano. I guess saying anything bad about Lily was a step too far for her. I don’t know why if she thought I was lying about Lily for some reason she didn’t just ask me to verify what I was telling her instead of leaking our messages. I never asked, told, implied, or said anything to Nano about not working with Lily or canceling her model she already started, and I had no intention to.
——————————
4/15/2025 - This is the last message in my dms with Nano. She never replied and never messaged me to talk about things from her document privately.

In my apology I wrote:

“Nano had also never come to me as seriously and professionally as her document was, looking to address the issues she had with either of us, or to terminate our partnership.”

Our partnership was terminated before Nano’s document was posted, but not by her.

——————————

4/15/2025 - 4/16/2025 - Three days after Red’s messages with Nano about Lily, and about ten hours after my message above, Red was added into a group chat by Nano with her “new manager.” Red was told that effective immediately, Nano would be taking an indefinite hiatus from working with us due to burnout, and explaining away why Red hadn’t heard from Nano in days. We knew Nano’s manager had always been her husband Mio, so him being replaced and Nano coming to this decision out of nowhere made no sense. I was never added into this chat, and wasn’t even aware of it happening until the day after when Red talked to me about it.

Red: Nano added me to this chat originally since this was the first time I’d ever been in contact with this other person. At the time these screenshots were taken Nano had already left the chat, the Discord messages of her adding me into the chat and her leaving were gone, and I was apparently made the group owner. Nano never sent a message in this chat and was the original group owner.

Red: Akira messaged this chat first and renamed the chat to “Nanoless Commissions”, showing that I didn’t make this group or initiate this conversation. Akira said Nano was “meaning to say this for a while” but everything Akira describes she never showed anything remotely similar to. Nano was always excited for our projects, including just days before this.

Red: I immediately accepted this decision if it’s what Nano wanted. My comment saying Nano is a bit disorganized was meant to be endearing to her. I said “Thank you for the work you’ve done for us, Nano” because she was in this chat at the time.

Red: I asked Akira more questions and tried to speculate on some kind of timeline when Nano may possibly be able to work with us again, since this threw off our plans for the rest of the year. Then I asked specifically if there “were any other factors from her perspective that led to this decision besides artistic burnout?”, thinking my conversation about Shylily with her could’ve had something to do with this. I was reassured it was just burnout and artistic pressure. Now I know I was right to suspect this.

Red: I didn’t want to move on from Nano, and said we’d wait for her and change our plans around instead of replacing her as Sinder’s model artist. I first told Sinder about this before I said I “broke the news to her.”

This reasoning Akira gave us didn’t make sense. On 4/9/2025, Nano showed no signs of burnout, ready and willing to take on the next project, excited about my new design.

And the last thing Nano said to Red, on 4/12/2025, she showed no signs of being burnt out either.

The last time Nano had implied she was burnt out from work in any way was to Red in September 2024 when she canceled a bunch of her projects herself, over seven months earlier.

After Akira’s messages I was heartbroken, distraught, and didn’t know where to go from here. Akira asked for Nano to not be contacted, and despite everything, I still respected Nano enough to not reach out if that's how she felt. Red reassured me that things would be okay and that we’d work with Nano again when she was ready. There was nothing that I could think of as to why Nano would come to this decision, and without saying anything to me at all. I canceled my Fansly stream I was supposed to have that night.

https://x.com/Sinderotica/status/1912618328717131959

Here’s my post on Fansly. I’m not linking it directly because Fansly is a NSFW site.

4/21/2025 - Five days later, Red messaged Akira again.

If this was truly what Nano was feeling, even if we were completely unaware of it and she chose not to talk to us at all about it, we still accepted her decision with hopes of working with her again in the future. I was extremely hurt by how Nano went about this. She didn’t even give us the courtesy to explain herself after years of working together, and instead sent someone we’ve never even heard of to say goodbye for her. The last message above was five days before Nano posted her document.

——————————

4/26/2025 - Red and I were together when Nano posted her document at 1:42am EST. She was the first one to post. Around this time, Red sent her a dm saying “Nano please”, but deleted it right after. I messaged her “Nano can we talk”, but deleted it too. She then removed us as friends on Discord so we couldn’t contact her again.

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1916005023646916910

——————————

Bao

Bao’s document for reference: I was hurt personally and professional by Sinder and her manager

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 1:48 AM EST

https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1916006443242639566

Bao has always been a great friend to me, and I couldn’t own up to being a terrible friend to her when I wrote my apology. I’ve neglected Bao, the same as a lot of other friends of mine, but more than the others in my closest circle. There was so much I couldn’t explain in my apology about what happened between Red and I over Bao that’s all presented below. Because of Red’s resentment towards her after he thought she went out of her way to sabotage us at the end of last year, she became a sore topic between us. My partner’s opinion of my friend pressured me to treat her differently to avoid any conflict between us. I never tried to talk to Bao about it because I didn’t agree with Red to begin with, and I didn’t want to start any drama between us. I was ignorant to the way she felt isolated from me and our other friends earlier this year. She was hurting and I didn’t do anything about it. I’m sorry to her for never addressing the problem when I could’ve, and I’m sorry I made her feel unwanted.

I knew Bao had a model planned with Nano. She showed it to me at Weebcon in March of last year. I also knew that the model was canceled in August before she told me and our friends. I was told that Nano chose to cancel Bao’s model so she could focus on her own content. I had no reason to ask to read Red’s messages myself when this happened. When Bao messaged me and our friends, I felt bad that I already knew about it. I saw how excited she was about this model, but I didn’t do anything to try and help her. I was under the impression this was what Nano wanted, and I’ve always been on Nano’s side about what she chose to work on. As far as I was aware, Bao didn’t have any plans with Nano for a model again after that. I didn’t know it was ever replanned or that Red brought Bao up to Nano in their exclusivity deal in January. I did not and do not agree with what he said about Bao to her then.

Bao was recovering from surgery when she was told one of her closest friends betrayed her. I don’t know what she was shown or told by Nano and Shylily, or our other friends involved, when she made her decision to make everything public, but I believe she was misinformed. I wish she would’ve talked to me first, but I don’t hold that against her. I never talked to her when I knew Red had a problem with her and I was neglecting her, so I didn’t deserve that courtesy back. Bao was encouraged to reveal my relationship with Red in her document, but she didn’t. I appreciate her choosing not to say anything about it before I did.

Bao was one of the first people who genuinely inspired me to become a vtuber in 2020. I was lucky enough to become her friend and get to know her. She works extremely hard on everything she does, especially her music. With how much bullshit she’s been through, she is one of the strongest people I’ve ever met. Bao is the kind of person who’ll always have her friends’ backs. I’m sorry that I didn’t do the same for her, and for never being the friend she deserved me to be.

Red: I’m sorry to Bao. I completely misjudged her character, jumped to conclusions, and made a mistake that not only hurt her with Nano, but continued to hurt her because of my influence on Sinder’s actions towards her for months afterwards. I’m ashamed of the way I felt about someone who’s only been a supportive friend to us. I was too immature to look past my personal resentment towards her to talk to her about the things that made me feel that way in the first place. I went out of my way to get even with someone and take an opportunity away from them who had only hurt us in my own headcanon. I also want to apologize to Bao for reassuring Nano it was okay to cancel her model last August. I was only considering Nano’s feelings and how it would affect us, and not Bao. I’m sorry.

Below we’ve laid out anything Red or I have experienced with or related to Bao that are relevant to everything that’s happened. This includes conversations with our mutual video editor, Red’s conversations with Nano about Bao’s model, our real life experiences, and the production of Boss Rush’s music video with Sacramore, leading up to what Red told Nano in their exclusivity deal.

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Everything is in chronological order, and all dates and times are in EST.

I’ve censored any private information or names of people who aren’t directly involved.

Screenshots that include messages that were in any of the documents are highlighted with a red border.

Screenshots that are directly of or taken from another document are highlighted with an orange border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

Quotes from my apology are highlighted in gray .

Red’s own comments on anything being presented are labeled and highlighted in blue .

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9/30/2023 - Video Editor Exclusivity #1

The first time Red asked our video editor about working with us exclusively was a couple weeks after we saw they had worked with Bao. Initially, I took them working with Bao personally when I shouldn’t have. I thought it must’ve been because my content wasn’t good enough, or as good as Bao’s in this case. I thought it could be that I wasn't paying them enough so they were looking for other work. I was upset, but not at her. She was my friend. Red wanted them to have the time to do more for us in general, so he wanted to ask them about becoming exclusive for that reason. Red also asked how much they’d be looking to be paid for exclusivity. They turned him down and it wasn’t a problem. We were both satisfied with their response and accepted their decision. I got over my insecurity and was happy they were supporting my friend with her content. It was only over our shared video editor that I ever saw Bao as any kind of “competition”, but it didn’t affect how I treated her.

In my apology I said:

“Yes, Red and I were initially upset when Bao hired my editor, and I took it personally when I shouldn't have. I felt as if maybe my content wasn't good enough, or like I wasn't paying enough for his work. But I accepted it and was happy for him for getting that bag and supporting one of my friends at the same time.”

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11/17/2023 - Finding Out About Bao’s Model

Red asked Nano about her current projects like he often would.

Later in their conversation Bao was mentioned again.

Red: Nano told me Bao’s model was planned for June.

11/19/2023 - Nano asked Red about Bao’s model timeline.

Red: Nano asked me when she should have Bao’s model done. Nowhere do I say she should cancel it. Nano suggested she may get it done sooner than June.

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3/29/2024 - 3/31/2024 - Weebcon 2024

At Weebcon is where Bao showed us her new model design Nano was working on for her.

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7/15/2024 - 7/19/2024 - The She Wolf Cover Song

Bao messaged Red about doing a cover of She Wolf with me for her Halloween cover album. This was the first and only time she went to Red in their dms to plan something with me. She first told Red this song would be a duet.

She messaged Red again later, now telling him that Numi was involved. Red asked me about this, and he told Bao that I said I was down to do it. I also said she could’ve just messaged me about this, and I don’t know why she didn’t. Red asked her to clarify if it would be just the two of us like she said, or three of us now, but Bao never responded.

Three days later, Bao messaged me to add me into her project server for the song. This was the first thing she said to me about it. Red never told me Bao said anything about Numi’s inclusion in the three days since, and only told me it’d be a duet when talking to me about it. Numi being included wasn’t a problem at all, and the three of us did the cover together.

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7/23/2024 - 8/6/2024 - Bao’s Model Cancellation

These are Red’s dms with Nano leading up to when she canceled Bao’s model.

7/23/2024 - 7/26/2024 - Red asked Nano if she knew when Bao’s model was going to debut so we could plan our schedule around it, like we’ve done in the past with other people she’s worked with. It was the end of July and he thought her model was already finished. The last time Nano had mentioned it to him was in November, and she told him she planned to have it done in June. We saw the design at Weebcon in March when Bao showed us.

Red: Sinder’s angel model was booked for October. I was also excited for what I thought was a model she was making for someone else.

Red: Nano brings up the idea of canceling models first after expressing she wanted to do her own thing, and that she “honestly would” if she didn’t feel committed to them.

8/4/2024 - 8/5/2024 - Red asked Nano if she decided to cancel any model projects like they had talked about before. He did not name anyone.

Red: The reason why I followed up and asked Nano if she had canceled anything was because it could possibly affect our project schedule with her. Nano said she “Didn’t cancel anything yet.” She did not tell me she decided not to cancel anything at all. Then she told me to give her a moment about it. She told me previously there were at least 2 models she was considering canceling.

There were unrelated messages about my own project they were talking about between these screenshots.

Red: I bumped Nano again about 6 hours later and she said someone was replying to her now.

Red: 45 minutes after, Nano said she was able to start on Sinder’s angel model right away, when earlier she said she wasn’t able to and had planned to start in October.

This was all Red told me in our dms right after he talked to Nano.

8/6/2024 - Red messaged Nano and asked how her conversation with Bao went.

After I posted my apology on 4/27/2025, Bao tweeted this, talking about her model being canceled last August. It was a standalone tweet, not as a reply to my apology, and not quoting it either.

https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1916603928789369299

This is what I said:

This is the same friend I messaged before about Red and I.

In Bao’s tweet she said that before her model was canceled in August of 2024 they “were so close to begin Live2D and rigging.”

A little over a week before Bao’s model was canceled, Nano told Red that Bao’s model hadn’t even been started. And as you’ve seen, Red never asked Nano to cancel Bao’s model.

I’d think Bao would’ve said if her model was cancelled mid progress in her messages to me and our friends if it was, instead of just that she was dropped as a client.

In Bao’s document she said “there was suddenly back and forth on whether or not (Nano) had the physical and mental capacity to continue (her) model.”

Which lines up with what Nano said to Red, and how Nano repeatedly overbooked herself, but was never shown anywhere.

Bao saying there was a “back and forth” also could imply that Nano already approached her saying she may not continue her model before August 5th when Red messaged Nano .

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8/9/2024 - Video Editor Exclusivity #2

The second time Red asked our video editor about becoming exclusive was after our other editor had stepped down from working with us on August 5th. Instead of finding a replacement, we wanted to see if they could have the time to fill the gap in content left behind, plus any extra videos they’d be available to make for us. Red offered them a raise, but they turned him down and we moved on. This had nothing to do with Bao.

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8/27/2024 - Last Solo Collab with Bao

This was the day of my last one on one collab with Bao. She had asked me to make clay animals together on 8/3/2024, and it took us three weeks to get materials delivered and finally schedule it. We ended up making vtuber mascots. I was happy Bao wanted to do something artsy together since I already did my own crafting streams and I wasn’t able to do hand cam crafting collabs with other vtubers very often. https://youtu.be/erJJoFc_wL8?si=AqnkR2EcLtUAiTfa

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~8/31/2024 - Natural Disaster

Bao released her original song, Natural Disaster, featuring our other friends alongside her.

Red: This event is here because of what I watched Bao say on her stream either on the day the song was released or sometime in the couple weeks before then. She was talking about how difficult, frustrating, and time consuming it was to work with inexperienced singers on music projects, and that she would rather work with vsingers from now on who know what they’re doing and can match her high skill level. These were her closest friends she was talking about, live on stream. I couldn’t find an archived VOD of this stream anywhere to prove this happened either. What I remember is how it made me think Bao viewed her friends, and how I felt about it.

At this same time, Bao, Numi, and I were working on our She Wolf cover. Red told me this and it made me anxious about the song, and I felt like I had a lot of pressure on me to do well. I barely had any singing experience and wasn’t anywhere near Bao’s level. But she asked me to be a part of this and I wanted to do my best for her.

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9/19/2024 - 9/23/2024 - TwitchCon 2024

Red: There’s 3 things that happened at TwitchCon last year that further formed the opinion I had of Bao.

The first night there Sinder, her friends, and I went out to dinner somewhere nice. Bao was supposed to be there with us but never showed up. It was the first chance the close friends had to see each other in months, in person, away from work, and she blew them off. Everyone present was talking about her not being there.

One of our friends was telling us that they were working on a song with Bao, and Bao asked about them having a music video to go with it. The song this friend was making with Sinder at the time was planned to have a music video, but they weren’t planning on having one for the song with Bao. They said that Bao got upset with them, guilt tripping them over their decision about their own content. This reinforces what I had told Nano about Bao.

The last night before everyone went home the friends were planning to go to dinner. I ended up getting sick and stayed behind. In the group chat while they were figuring out where to eat, Bao said that she wanted to go somewhere fancy or she wasn’t going. This was the last night everyone was together, but there were still caveats she had to just spend time with her friends. Neither Sinder or I have access to this group chat anymore.

At a party at TwitchCon was where we met Sacramore, Bao’s video editor. He came to me and said he’d love to work together and make a music video for me, which is why Red would ask him to make one for Boss Rush.

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9/28/2024 - 10/4/2024 - Sacramore and Boss Rush’s Music Video #1

Since this is the first time Sacramore has been mentioned, here is his document for reference: ..

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 2:05 AM EST

https://x.com/SacramoreTV/status/1916010750956495163

Red reached out to Sac after TwitchCon about a music video project, which was the one for Boss Rush’s song. They discussed it over the next week, but Sac couldn’t fit it into his schedule at the time.

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10/5/2024 - 10/18/2024 - Japan Trip

Red: There’s 2 things that happened during our trip to Japan with our friends last year.

Bao got mad at another one of our friends for something that happened at a restaurant with a rude owner. She got pissed and yelled at and belittled our friend when they did nothing wrong. They confided in Sinder and I afterwards and were very upset over it. But it was fine because they said ‘that’s just how Bao is.”

Everyone got together for what we called our “Canadian Thanksgiving” dinner, since it was a few days earlier. It was the last night all of the friends would be together, just like TwitchCon, and again Bao never showed up. She said she was on her way and then some time later said never mind she’s not coming. We all were aware this was the last time we’d all see each other until 2025.

After TwitchCon and Japan I was pretty convinced about how I thought Bao viewed and valued her friends outside of making content together.

I experienced these things in Japan and at TwitchCon too. I was put off by them in the moment, but I didn’t think about them beyond when they happened.

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10/23/2024 - 11/30/2024 - Sacramore and Boss Rush’s Music Video #2

After getting back from Japan, Red messaged Sac again about Boss Rush’s music video since the planned release date was pushed back again. These are all of their dms over the course of the music video’s production.

Red: I offered to pay double for Sac’s work because I knew it’d be a tight deadline and was desperate for his help. Sac was 1 of 2 music video editors we knew, and the other wouldn’t have been able to pull off this video in this timeframe. Sac’s music videos always come out great and this project needed to be the best it could.

Red: I sent Sac the merch assets as soon as they were given to me.

Red: For transparency, there were 14 timestamps total, but some were cut off between these two screenshots.

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11/29/2024 - Bao’s Comment on Boss Rush’s Song

My new music group Boss Rush premiered our first song at the end of November. Red and I were going through the comments and we both saw Bao’s. He didn’t want me to like hers, so I gave in just to satisfy him. At the end of the day, it was just a comment.

Red: After the past few months I had a pretty solid opinion of how I thought Bao viewed her friends, so I told Sinder she shouldn’t like it. I was persistent about it, so she listened to me. It was very petty of me towards a friend showing support.

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~12/5/2024 - 12/9/2024 - Group Chat with Bao

Sometime in between these dates, Bao started a group chat with both Red and I. We were both removed from this group so we don’t have access to what was said. As far as we remember, she wanted to do something together. Red was adamant to me about not wanting to plan anything with her at that time, so we didn’t.

Red: Bao’s never messaged us like this before, and this was right after Boss Rush popped off with another 2 friends involved. I wasn’t opposed to doing things with her completely, but the timing was suspicious to me after the past few experiences with her, and I saw this as her trying to gain something from us. So I brushed her off. What stood out to me is that she addressed Sinder specifically as the “lead singer of Boss Rush.”

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12/10/2024 - Sacramore Exclusivity

Eleven days after the music video was finished and released, Red messaged Sac about another project for February. He said he was working exclusively with Bao going forward.

In my apology I said:

“And yes, I was also upset when Sac, the Boss Rush MV editor, had told us that he won't be working on any future projects with us and would instead be working exclusively for Bao. But Red got it in his head that it was Bao's fault that it happened, and seemingly held a grudge against her for it. He was very passionate about Boss Rush and the potential future projects around it, but he told me without an MV editor as talented as Sac, the future projects wouldn't reach the same heights, so he created this headcanon that's laid out in those dms.”

Red: The last time I spoke to Sac he said he was honored to be a part of Boss Rush’s project and was looking forward to the next music video together. Everyone loved the video he made and it was already nearing half a million views. I didn’t know Sac well at all so I had no real basis to know how he actually felt, but I just couldn’t understand his decision, coming out of nowhere.

Red: As we were messaging, I was going back and forth talking to Sinder about this, which is why there’s gaps in time in my responses to Sac. By the end of our conversation I was suspicious of his reasoning.

Right after this, Red messaged our video editor about music video editors and what happened with Sac. They’re close with and works with Bao and her other editors, including Sac.

Red: Our video editor gave me the same reasoning for Sac’s decision as he did, and I should’ve taken it as fact by then. But I didn’t, and still thought something else must’ve happened.

Red: Sac told me he was going exclusive with Bao because of his own content and goals he wanted to prioritize. In his position as a vtuber video editor for a significant amount of time, I just didn’t understand his vague reasoning or what content and community he was talking about. This was just 11 days after Boss Rush premiered.

It was this message from Sac that made me suspicious of what his actual reason was for going exclusive with Bao. He only said all this after he was pushed about his decision, and this was only days after Sinder and I turned down Bao in that group chat where she called Sinder “the lead singer of Boss Rush.” Because of my experience with Bao over the past few months, I had confirmation bias. I convinced myself Sac was doing this because Bao must’ve guilt tripped and convinced him not to work with anyone other than her, including Boss Rush. And I was mad that this wasn’t even just against Sinder and I, but Tricky and Vienna too, who I cared about as much as Sinder did.

Red: Another thing that hasn’t been mentioned up to this point is what Bao thought of her own music throughout last year. She would talk publicly in her Discord server about how depressed she was about her own songs. About how nothing she did was performing well, and guilt tripping her fans about not liking them or listening to them due to the low view counts, ignoring their supportive messages like it meant nothing to her because the numbers didn’t reflect them. She wanted to quit making music entirely because she thought her songs performed so poorly. The only songs of hers from last year that I could imagine she considered successful were Miss RGB, Natural Disaster, and the She Wolf cover, all of which included her friends.

When I told Nano that Bao’s song’s “flopped” I was referring to how Bao thought of them, implying that I thought it was motivation for her to do what I was telling Nano. Music that had dozens of thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of views, wasn't good enough for Bao, although I didn’t elaborate on any of that to Nano. In my own opinion, all of her songs performed fine, if not great. I don’t know why she needed views to validate music she made if it was something she enjoyed doing in the first place. I know how this reasoning sounds when you just look at what my message to Nano said, and it doesn't look good on me.

We were banned from Bao’s Discord server so I don’t have any evidence to show this happening. I don’t know if Bao’s messages about this still exist, but I know there’s plenty of baobble buddies out there who would remember this. Bao’s TMJ she talked about in her document had nothing to do with anything I said to Nano, and wasn’t something I even considered.

Another similar instance I remember happening in Bao’s server was on Sinder’s birthday last year when her, Bao, and their friends were playing Jackbox Games together. Sinder was streaming and invited them all to play, and Bao was streaming her end at first but abruptly ended it not long after starting. I checked her Discord server to see if anyone knew what happened. Bao was chatting in a public channel saying her CCV was too low to keep streaming and no one cared about watching her. Her community was trying to encourage and support her, but I remember she replied to a fan saying something like “stop fucking talking”, and telling them all that nothing she did mattered. This is how she was talking directly to her fans supporting her, and while in a collab on her friend’s birthday of all days, more concerned about her numbers rather than having a good time together. I don’t know if these messages still exist either, but about her music wasn’t the only time that she’d berate herself in her server and guilt trip her fans about it.

Here is part of the full VOD from 9/14/2024 for reference: https://youtu.be/srYFKe2AElA

Red: One thing I found while putting this document together was this tweet from Bao earlier this year on 3/15/2025 that indirectly supports the above. Bao said she was struggling with an unhealthy work life balance, like us. She wasn’t enjoying content creation, implying she was too focused on the numbers, and what she did was never enough for her: https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1900763714825187773

Red: She also spoke about her jaw pain in this tweet that she mentioned in her document. This was not something I had ever considered, and had nothing to do with my opinion or actions towards her.

Red: With everything I had seen, heard, and experienced with and around Bao over the past few months all added up, I had come to this conclusion:

Boss Rush’s song came out and was performing great right away. Bao, who was upset with her own music’s performance throughout the year, and who really cared about numbers, saw how well the song her musically inexperienced friends made was doing. She also found out her video editor Sac had made the music video for it. These made her upset. She messaged Sinder and I about doing something together in the week that followed, calling Sinder “the lead singer of Boss Rush”, but we turned her down. She was also turned down about doing a music video with another friend recently, who was guilt tripped about it, and now us refusing to make content with her made things worse. She must’ve spoken to Sac sometime after about how depressed she was over all of this, guilt tripping him about everything she’s done for him into not working with anyone else going forward. When Sac told me why he made his decision to go exclusive he emphasized how indebted to Bao he was, which would make sense if he was guilt tripped into this.

Sure there were times before this I thought Bao could be whiny or pushy, but I never held anything against her before. Now I was convinced she was selfish, only cared about her friends when clout was involved, and had intentionally screwed us over out of jealousy of her friends’ success. Things that were never a problem to me, like her working with our same video editor for the past year and a half, suddenly became an issue. Everything I saw over these few months showed a pattern of behavior that led to this happening. I thought I was crazy for being the only one to see it, with all her friends always giving her behavior a pass because “that’s just how Bao is.” I couldn’t possibly think her editor just decided to go exclusive with Bao right after Boss Rush just because he wanted to, and Bao had no involvement in his choice. It was completely unbelievable to me that someone would just do that themselves with the way this perfect storm of events lined up. If there was a greater explanation or reasoning behind these events and Bao’s actions, I never knew about them. I formed my opinion on what I did know and experience, like anyone else would. It wasn’t founded on jealousy of Bao, and I wasn’t just making things up to lie to Nano about her for no reason. But at the same time, I never sought out the truth and never talked to Bao about it. I was mad at her and already decided what she did. I thought that if I did bring it up she’d just lie about it and it wouldn’t matter.

I had thoroughly brainwashed myself into thinking there was no way this wasn’t the case, but as I now know, I was wrong. I misinterpreted the situation and misjudged Bao’s intentions due to my confirmation bias, going as far as to disregard every positive interaction I had with Bao, or any of the good things I’ve seen her do, just to fit this narrative. I jumped to conclusions, and doubled down without ever trying to find out if this was really true or not. But with every little thing that happened, I was so sure that this must’ve been the case and I held it against Bao. It was stupid and immature of me, and Bao didn’t deserve the way I thought about her, or my actions that followed.

And Bao did know about the music video Sac was working on for us. I was wrong. While going through my messages for this document, he said as much to me when I first asked him about doing the music video. From the time he said that and then became exclusive it had been over 2 months. We’d gone to Japan, and I handled conversations with lots of other people every day. I forgot about it and thought Bao was unaware of him working with us. There was no conversation at the TwitchCon party we were at that I can remember Bao being a part of while talking to Sac specifically about working together. She was there talking to us at different points, but not at the same time as that.

Red: I want to say I’m sorry to Sac for the pressure I put him under while working on our music video, and overworking him during the holidays with what he was experiencing at the time. If I had things better planned and finished sooner there wouldn’t have been such a time crunch. I also want to apologize for the hostility in my messages to him when he told me he was closing his commissions. It was his choice to do so, and I shouldn’t have distrusted him.

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12/12/2024 - Argument with Red

Red came up with his theory about Bao and brought it to me. This was a verbal conversation so I have no evidence of it, only of the events around it. I didn’t believe Bao would pressure her editor just to hurt us. I was upset about not being able to work with Sac again too, but I told him we’d just have to find a new editor. When confronted with her actions over the past few times we saw her, I said they weren’t a big deal. Red was persistent and went through his evidence over and over, until I got mad too. I caved on the YouTube comment, and I understood what he was saying to me, but I didn’t agree with his conclusion. I was already stressed out because of my new model debut in three days, and I was hosting the VTuber Awards preshow the day before that. That’s where my Fansly announcement would also be, and another thing I was nervous about doing at all. Now Red was telling me he “knew” one of my friends had purposely done this to me. I defiantly told him it wasn’t true and to get over it. Red told me to ask Bao about it, but I told him to since he was the one with the problem. I had a collab on another friend’s channel the next day that included Bao. Red wanted me to cancel it last minute because she was involved, after I had already made an announcement about it in my Discord server earlier.

I didn’t want to hear it, got upset, and just went to bed from the stress of everything. Because of our fight, I was asleep and missed the Okami sequel announcement. I tweeted about it when I woke up.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1867451599532306564

Neither of us ever talked to Bao about any of this, even after just days earlier she had started a group chat with us both. It’s my fault for never trying to clear things up when I had the chance. I just wanted this to go away and keep the peace between me and my friends.

In my apology I said:

“I wasn't convinced this was the case, but it's my fault for never speaking with Bao about these things directly to clear things up, and letting it spiral to the point it got to.”

“I'm sorry for not reaching out sooner about these ideas that were put into my head. I wish we would've been able to talk about this, too.”

Red: Regardless of how I personally felt about Bao now, I was still friendly with her the couple times I talked to her afterwards. She was still Sinder’s friend. I asked Bao for advice about something work related in December, and the last time I spoke to her was at the end of the year when her, Sinder, and their friends were dealing with something else going on. Getting even with Bao wasn’t something I ever thought about doing until the opportunity to came up when going to Nano about exclusivity.

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12/13/2024 - 12/14/2024 - The Collab with Bao and Friends

I was at my friend’s collab the next day with Bao. Bao messaged me afterwards apologizing for something that happened on stream. I didn’t see her message right away because of everything I had going on that weekend. I replied after the VTA preshow was over. I thought about saying something to Bao about what Red told me, but I didn’t. I didn’t want to start anything over what I believed to be nothing in the first place, and I had a hard time talking about things in general. I trusted Bao, I was still mad at Red, and my new debut was the next day.

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12/14/2024 - 12/15/2024 - Artist #1 and Bao

Artist #1 told Red that they’re working with Bao now.

Red: Artist #1 told me they were working with Bao now. This was only a few days after I spoke to Sac, and Sinder and I had an argument over my theory about Bao. The other “regular people we work with” I was talking about here was Nano, from when she was working with Bao earlier in the year. I told Artist #1 that it wasn’t a big deal they were working with her. Artist #1 never knew my thoughts on Bao that were told to Nano in January.

I was mad at Bao, but I wasn’t planning to do anything about it. It was only when I went to ask Nano about exclusivity did I have the idea to include Bao’s name as a way to get even with her.

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12/15/2024 - Sacramore’s Announcement

Sacramore made his announcement about working exclusively with Bao. This was the same day as my heavenhound model debut.

https://x.com/SacramoreTV/status/1868367359372906638

Red: As far as I was aware, Sac was already basically exclusive to Bao to the same degree our video editor was to us, if not more so. For him to do a complete 180 in under 2 weeks from Boss Rush’s release was unbelievable to me. He put his exclusivity with Bao in writing, publicly, and asked to be completely anonymous without being credited going forward with no reason other than he wanted to. I just couldn’t believe there wasn’t more to it. I don’t know if Sac ended up making any of his own content like he told me since this happened.

Recently, Sac opened his commissions again and is apparently not working with Bao anymore. The very thing that sent me over the edge about Bao last December didn’t seem to last.

9/20/2025

https://x.com/SacramoreTV/status/1969416291023774094

9/24/2025

https://x.com/SacramoreTV/status/1971030271098225104

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1/10/2025 - 2/11/2025 - Artist #1 and Nano’s Exclusivity Deal

Like was shown in Nano’s section, Artist #1 wanted to discuss a permanent, paid position with us, and suggested some kind of exclusivity for the work they did. Just like with Nano, Red handled any business related discussions with them. This is where the idea to go to Nano about exclusivity came from.

1/10/2024 - Artist #1 messaged Red the morning after pitching their idea to him about our video editor, and then said they’d be willing to offer some kind of exclusivity due to “competitiveness in the field.” In the brief conversation Red and I had about it, we agreed that if we were going to pay them consistently for their work, like my video editor, we’d want to work out some kind of exclusivity with them.

As for the exclusivity with Artist #1, Red and I had only agreed that we wanted to have it for their work, and didn’t talk about naming anyone to them.

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1/15/2025 - This was when Nano and Red made their exclusivity deal. I didn’t know Red was planning to talk to her about it that day, or even knew he had until after they had already come to an agreement, without my involvement. Red brought this up to Nano in their private dms, and not in our project server chat where all three of us were.

This quote from my apology refers to this deal they made:

“We had come to the conclusion that it’d be in my best interest to talk with Nano about making more time for my projects by negotiating with her to cut out other work. This was wrong for us to push onto her, and it was wrong to the other creators who wanted the chance of working with her. There was only one specific creator we were responsible for naming and pressuring Nano into reconsidering projects with, not an entire list.”

I should’ve said “negotiating with her to take on less work.” We were never thinking about asking her to cut out or cancel anything she already had planned.

In Nano’s and Bao’s documents, this conversation was presented out of order and purposely left out information.

Red: I chose to include Bao’s name to get even with her for what I thought she did to us, and I threw Cotton’s name in there for hurting a friend and because I knew she was on Nano’s waitlist in the past. Neither of them were ever discussed with Sinder, and Sinder strongly disagreed with what I thought about Bao, but if I was going to make a deal with Nano then I wanted to try to include Bao at the very least. Including their names here was entirely on me.

My hesitancy and Nano’s reassurance were both left out of Nano’s and Bao’s documents.

Red: My message about Cotton was cut out of the screenshot in Nano’s document, but not in Bao’s document. I don’t know why Nano would do that herself, and would later say to me “I don’t really care about Bao and Cotton.” Nano’s messages saying “i rather work with Sinder than Bao dw, being Sinder’s mom means a lot to me” were removed as well, and this was framed as me showering her with love to manipulate her, instead of it being me responding to what she said like what actually happened.

When I told Nano that Bao’s song’s “flopped” I was referring to how Bao thought of them, implying that I thought it was motivation for her to do what I was telling Nano, although I didn’t explain that to her.

“Plus none of this can leave our chat” and “AGAIN THIS IS ALL SECRET TALK” was to keep this from everyone, including Sinder.

The image of the chat from Nano’s document with the message about Cotton edited out:

The image of the chat from Bao’s document containing the message about Cotton.

Red: I was mad at Bao for what I thought was her gatekeeping her music video editor, Sacramore, from working with us on any other music videos. The other things I said about Bao here were all non issues that became a list of grievances after what I thought she did. It sounded so harsh because I was angry about it, and I was venting to someone I trusted about something I genuinely believed happened. I thought that if she was going to gatekeep her editor, then I was going to try gatekeeping our artist. I couldn’t see what I thought happened making sense any other way. Everything I said here I believed, and was true to my own observations and experiences. They were not lies I was making up just because. I now know I was wrong. Nano was the only person I told my feelings and theory about Bao to other than Sinder.

Red: Nano: “it do be fair but… ok, can i ask for Demon sinder figure?”, “yay deal”

There was no manipulation and I didn’t lie to her about what I actually believed at the time.

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Like I said in my apology:

There is nothing tangible I can show to prove that I didn’t know what happened between them. I can’t prove I didn’t know something.

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1/15/2025 - Shortly after the deal was made with Nano and he told me about it, Red messaged Artist #1 about our thoughts on their agreement.

Red: When I said “There’s a few people we compete with that we’d rather withhold your work from if agreeable”, I was thinking of giving them the same names I had given Nano. They had told me recently that they started working with Bao, and they worked with Silver in the past. Sinder and I didn’t talk about any names to give to Artist #1.

This was the 3rd of 4 total times, with 3 different artists, I had ever specifically asked anyone to not work with someone else, which are all presented in this document.

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1/16/2025 - The next day, Artist #1 sent Red a document that laid out everything in their agreement.

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2/10/2025 - 2/20/2025 - Nano canceled the exclusivity deal she made with Red about a month after it was made so she could work with Silver. This conversation with Red wasn’t included at all in Nano’s document, only my dms with her. Nano faced no repercussions from either of us for going back on her word.

Red: Nano: “I don’t really care about Bao and Cotton.”

Quote about this from my apology:

Searching “bao” and “cotton” in my own dms with Nano:

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3/28/2025 - Last Messages with Bao

These are the last messages in my dms with Bao.

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Being a Bad Friend, Compromising with Red, and Boss Rush’s Role

After our argument in December, Red and I didn’t talk about Bao again until sometime after my heavenhound debut. He pressured me not to interact with her professionally anymore. I wasn’t going to agree to that, but I didn’t want this to cause problems between us at home. Bao was a friend that lived across the country, I only saw every few months, and already didn’t do things often with. I lived with Red. So I chose to do just enough to keep the peace, finding a middle ground between us. I didn’t plan anything with Bao one on one, which we already rarely did, I didn’t raid her in the times I was able, and I didn’t retweet artwork of us two together on my NSFW Twitter account. Red didn’t want to include Bao in anything Boss Rush related either, including collabs.

Red: It was wrong of me to push my feelings about Sinder’s friend onto her and expect her to essentially cut her off. Initially in December, I didn’t want Sinder, the brand, to interact with Bao’s at all. I didn’t want Bao to be included in anything Boss Rush related either because I thought their music video was the motivation to make Sac go exclusive. I took what I thought happened as Bao acting against all 3 of the girls, not just Sinder. After my deal with Nano I considered us even, and by the time Nano walked her deal back I didn’t care to find out if Bao’s model was still canceled. I wasn’t angry at Bao anymore, just soured on her. I eased up on my feelings towards her with Sinder as months went by, but the way things had been was the way they stayed. I was eventually open to the idea of a 6 person Boss Rush song with all of Sinder’s friends, including Bao.

It was in group activities with her and our friends that I still interacted with and collabed with Bao like always. I was one of the six of us that often took the initiative and tried planning things for all of us to do together.

12/27/2024

I didn’t talk to Bao outside of our friends’ group chat unless she messaged me first, but the same was already true for her before my disagreement with Red, and for almost all of my other friends for a long time, like I explained in the accountability section of this document. Besides our group chat, the exception to that was with Boss Rush.

Since Boss Rush’s inception in March 2024, I’ve gotten to be much closer friends with Tricky and Vienna than with other friends. After our first song premiered at the end of November, I chose to focus on doing more together with them. It was much easier to plan things between the three of us, rather than all six of us, because of everyone’s conflicting schedules and other things they may have had going on. Boss Rush felt like our version of Bao, Numi, and Shylily’s Bikini Bottoms group, making music, collabing together, and doing our own thing outside of plans with everyone.

Because of this, Red and I felt like Yuzu was left out. He had the idea early on that we’d like to eventually bring Yuzu into Boss Rush so she would be included in something too. This idea came before he ever had anything against Bao. These are all Red’s messages in our Boss Rush group chat where he talked about the idea of Yuzu and a song we’d make with her. The first two messages are cropped because they’re part of a long string of dms that aren’t relevant.

7/11/2024

7/16/2024

12/15/2024

1/26/2025

When we would be looking for a fourth person for our Boss Rush collabs this year, Red would suggest Yuzu. Her being involved alongside Boss Rush would’ve led up to her being introduced in a new song. It’d be a hint to the fans the same way the frequent collabs between Tricky, Vienna, and I throughout last year were intended to be before Boss Rush debuted. But when I was canceled, we still hadn’t talked to Yuzu about joining Boss Rush or doing a song with us. There was only one collab between us four specifically in January, but I did end up playing through Split Fiction with Yuzu in March too. There were five Boss Rush collabs, and five Girliepop collabs that included Bao, since the start of 2025 and before April.

In March, Bao asked me and our friends in our group chat about doing a group song together for the end of 2025 in December. I turned her down, but I would’ve been willing to do one next year. It wasn’t because of Red, and it wasn’t because I didn’t want to. I had six to seven music projects already lined up for this year, with one of the most important being Boss Rush’s song with Yuzu projected for December already.

I know it doesn’t mean much without all the details of what they are, or who they were supposed to be with, but this was my music release schedule for this year when Bao asked:

June 2025 - A cover song for my third anniversary
August 2025 - Boss Rush’s second song
September 2025 - An original song produced by Numi
October 2025 - An original song I was asked to be a part of by a creator I look up to
October 2025 - Boss Rush’s third song
December 2025 - Boss Rush’s fourth song, which was planned to include Yuzu
Sometime in 2025 - A cover song I was asked to do with another friend

The Boss Rush projects in August and December were planned to be much bigger endeavors, similar to the first song’s launch. Boss Rush’s song for October might’ve been pushed to 2026 to have more time for December’s song, and that’s what my focus was on. I didn’t want Boss Rush’s December release to conflict with the project Bao wanted to do together. I know the time investment needed to put music projects together and how difficult it is to get myself to record my own vocals sometimes. I didn’t want to sacrifice the plans I already had for this year and commit to another song. Even Numi said no to Bao at first because of her own schedule. I was removed from this chat when the documents were posted so I don’t have screenshots of anything from it.

With how much more I was doing and planning with mine and Bao’s other friends within our same friend group, and because of how I was neglecting her, Bao felt isolated, also evident from her tweets in March.

https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1901348757998080370

https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1903914942950183025

We still did things together as a big group, even though I chose to turn down the group song, and Numi never seemed to have a problem with the few of us doing things separately, but I understand how Bao must’ve felt. I wasn’t including Bao in any of my own things, and when our friends had free time, it went towards our plans together, without her. Numi said Bao confided in her about me and the way she thought I felt about her, but never did Bao try talking to me directly about how she felt, the same way I didn’t talk to her about Red’s feelings.

I was neglectful of Bao and my friendship with her, and ignorant of how the things I did, and did without her, were making her feel. I stayed quiet and gave in to Red, hoping he would move on over time, never knowing what he did and said behind my back. I was an awful friend to Bao for months when she didn’t deserve it.

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4/26/2025 - Bao posted her document just six minutes after Nano posted hers, at 1:48am EST. She had already removed Red and I as friends on Discord, and blocked us both on Twitter.

https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1916006443242639566

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12/27/2024 - This is a message I sent to another close friend at the end of December. Ironically, I didn’t have healthy communication with my friends. I couldn’t open up to them or talk to them about difficult subjects. I never spoke to Bao about anything that was going on. In the next section, I go over how my lack of communication hurt Numi too.

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VCard & Numi's Concert

VCard & Numi’s Concert

I messed up and hurt one of my friends, Numi. I agreed to be a part of her concert in NYC in February, but I let her down and canceled my performance. Then when VCard’s launch date was delayed to her concert weekend, I put business over my friendship when I chose to not even be there for her so I could be representing a company and streaming with Shylily, which I mistakenly planned on the same day. Although I did make it to Numi’s show, I still made a decision that hurt her. All while preparing for her own concerts, Numi had been producing an original song for me since December. I was asking a lot of her when I wasn’t doing the same in return. I made her feel more like a business partner than a friend.

Numi has always been an incredible friend and I was lucky to have her care about me. She always motivated and inspired me, especially when it came to music. I was the one who was a bad friend. Her messages are only here for context. I’m sorry to her again for this whole situation I caused.

I didn’t bring any of this up before because it wasn’t something that involved anyone who had posted a document about me. I thought this was settled at the end of January, privately between Numi and I. Apparently I was expected to talk about it, and when I didn’t, it was used against me. This situation was vaguely described to push the idea of my manipulation, avoidance of accountability, and sabotage of my friends. But none of that is true to what actually happened. It was caused by my own miscommunication, fears and anxieties, and misplaced priorities. So I want to go through the entire series of events, my thoughts, feelings, and decisions leading up to VCard’s launch, my collab with Shylily, and Numi’s concert in New York City.

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Everything is in chronological order, and all dates and times are in EST.

I’ve censored any private information or names of people who aren’t directly involved.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

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9/1/2024 - While messaging Red, Numi brought up her concert for the first time to either of us. She asked him to ask me if I’d want to perform or go to her NYC show, and Red told her to message me herself since she was my friend. We don’t remember if Red ever asked me about this at the time because Numi said she would later on. There was never a message to Numi from Red or I getting back to her about this question.

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11/25/2024 - 11/26/2024 - Numi messaged me and invited me to her NYC concert. I remember her bringing it up to me in person somewhere before this, but I don’t remember where, when, or what was said.

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12/26/2024 - Numi messaged Red about my performance in her show, saying I agreed to do it. She told him the setlist was already done too. Red was adamant about us being at Numi’s concert there from the start. This was the first message from Numi to either of us about any kind of planning for her concert, just over a month before it.

When Red asked me about this, I was confused. I didn’t remember telling Numi I’d sing alongside her at one of her shows, especially with how I felt about singing. Numi didn’t mention performing when she brought up her concert to me on 11/26/2025, a month before messaging Red. I couldn’t find any messages between us or any clips from our recent collabs talking about it. I remembered talking about her concerts with her in person at some point, and I guessed I must’ve agreed to it on one of our trips together. Instead of trying to talk to Numi about the confusion and causing problems, I just accepted it because whether I remembered saying it or not, she had the impression I would perform. I really shouldn’t have stayed quiet, but I didn’t want to let Numi down. I never told her this, and by the time I finally spoke to her about how I felt, how could I have?

Numi never messaged me directly about the concert, which is why I left all of the communication about these plans over the next month up to Red when it shouldn’t have been.
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12/26/2024 - 12/27/2024 - This is when I first brought up the idea of a VCard collab with Shylily. I wanted to become closer friends with her and VCard was something I think we were both really excited about. My Gamer Supps part owner announcement was coming soon, and I felt that doing something together for the launch of their new game would be a great idea for the brand. VCard was supposed to release on 1/17/2025.

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1/6/2025 - Red messaged Numi about the hotel so he could start planning our trip to her concert.

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1/7/2025 - 1/9/2025 - I asked Shylily about the VCard collab again to make actual plans since the release was under two weeks away on the 17th. I suggested the day after release, on Saturday, which would’ve been the 18th. Shylily replied the next day, and at the same time VCard’s release date was delayed to the 31st. All I was thinking was that the collab was moved to 2 weeks later than planned, at the end of the month. Then we talked about doing other things together.

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1/10/2025 - Red finally got back to Numi about her question about my performance and told her about some of the struggles we’ve been discussing over the past couple weeks. However, Red only said it was about performing on stage, when it was specifically about singing with a live mic. I should’ve gone to Numi to talk to her myself. I didn’t want to bail on my friend, but my anxieties around performing live were stressing me out despite trying to psych myself up. I was indecisive and couldn’t make a decision on what to do. Numi told him that we shouldn’t feel obligated to go to either of her concerts, including the one I was supposed to perform at.

Later the same night I was talking to Numi about matching shirts she was making for us. I suggested we could wear them together when I saw her in NYC because I was still planning to be there, but hadn’t decided if I was going to be able to perform or not. I didn’t say anything about my performance in her show, and she didn’t ask about what Red said to her earlier that day.

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1/13/2025 - A few days later, I chose not to perform in the show. Red told Numi, but he didn’t go into detail about it and just said it was about the live mic. This was 19 days before the concert. Nearly 3 weeks before the show.

This is why I chose not to perform:

I was too anxious to get on stage and sing with a live mic. This was the biggest reason I made the decision to not do the show. The only time I did something similar to this was at Weebcon in 2023. I performed on stage in full cosplay while pre recorded audio of me singing played over the speakers. I almost pulled out of that show about a week before the con because I thought I’d have to sing live. My one track mind told me this concert had to be sung live, especially if I was supposed to be singing alongside Numi, and I didn’t consider any other options or work around. I have never been confident in my singing abilities, and I’ve been saying it for years. Every time I’ve recorded a song I would do dozens of different takes for each verse, and then I’d have Red listen to them all and pick out the ones he thought were the best. It was only after I heard my vocals mixed into a song did I think it sounded alright. Although I’ve done karaoke many times with my friends, this was a completely different scenario. I was deathly afraid of singing live in front of a crowd of fans for what would’ve been my first time.

Here’s a conversation with another friend about almost canceling my performance in Weebcon’s concert from 4/3/2024.

I didn’t really want to make a public appearance on stage without being in cosplay. My cosplay takes up a lot of space when I travel, mostly for the tail and wig. The only way I would’ve been able to get the whole thing there was if we drove, but Red didn’t want to drive in NYC, and I was worried about anyone following me in costume after we left. Even though I would’ve been most comfortable on stage wearing everything, I would’ve been okay with just wearing my Sinder wig by itself, but it didn’t fix my problem with singing live.
I didn’t think my part of the show was that important or integral to the concert overall, and that pulling out wouldn't have been that much of an inconvenience to Numi. As far as either of us knew, there weren’t any songs planned for me to do yet and the setlist was done in December. Sexy Drug was the only song Numi and I had covered together, so I assumed that would’ve been the only one. Any other songs in the setlist that may have been intended for me to perform were never communicated. She suggested to Red that I could perform one of my songs, but I only had two songs to choose from, Convergence of Sin and my cover of Winter Rain. Even if we sang them all, that was a total of three songs. I didn’t think it’d be a problem to fill in that one to three song gap in the setlist, if she even had to. I don’t know anything about the prep work that goes into planning a concert though.

Red told me that Numi reassured him that I shouldn’t feel pressured or obligated to perform, or even go to the concert, three days before this. This furthered the idea that my guest performance must not have been that integral to the overall concert, and it’d be okay to her if I pulled out.

I kept putting off making a decision because of my anxiety of performing vs the stress of letting down Numi. I should’ve made my choice sooner and messaged her myself to talk about it with her instead of Red, and she never messaged me to ask about my decision either. Maybe we would’ve been able to make something work for me instead of letting my fears get the better of me. Red and I were still going to the concert, even if I wasn’t performing. Bao would end up filling in my spot in the show at the last minute, being a much better friend than I was.

Gamer Supps, VCard, and my collab with Shylily had nothing to do with my decision not to perform, only about not going to the show later. My collab with Shylily was not scheduled at this time. In absolutely no way was I trying to somehow sabotage Numi and her concert.
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1/16/2025 - I finally made my part owner announcement on Twitter. Most of my focus since the new year was on making this announcement. I started with Gamer Supps in December of 2022, and I was offered the position in November 2024. This was a huge milestone and accomplishment for me. I was extremely proud to be representing them, and was honored to have been given the role.

But with this title, I now felt like I had more responsibility. I felt pressured by no one other than myself to prove to Gamer Supps that they made the right choice by giving me this position, and the only example of another vtuber part owner was Shylily. She has been the Gamer Supps vtuber. I wanted to live up to what she’s been in the eyes of the company and the vtuber community. She spearheaded VCard, represented them at the VTuber Awards, and she’s synonymous with their brand.

VCard was the company's first massive drop of the year, and planned to launch right after my announcement, before the game was delayed. I saw it as the perfect opportunity for me to really step up as a new part owner. There was obviously money to be made, but I was focused on making the most of the launch weekend to show my passion and dedication for the company and their new project. I wanted to be there advertising the new game and representing Gamer Supps as best I could. I thought the collab with Shylily would be a great way to do that, together, the two vtuber part owners side by side, while sharing something we both were excited about, which is why I reached out to her about it in December.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1879955011305910332

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1/22/2025 - In her song production server, Numi told us how her shows will affect her schedule around the song she was making for me. The conversation following this message was the last one in this chat before the concert. Below Red talked about the release date for this song, but we pushed it back to my birthday sometime after this.

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1/26/2025 - Four days later, I checked in with Shylily about our VCard collab so we can plan a time. I first asked to plan it the day after release, on Saturday, just like the original plan was. I asked Shylily about 3pm EST, but we settled on 1pm EST, and I said we can “go for however long you want!”

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1/27/2025 - 1/28/2025 - The next day I told Red the time of the collab to put in my schedule, but he told me that that was the night of Numi’s concert. All I’ve been thinking about was VCard’s launch at the end of the week, and I completely forgot about her show when I was messaging Shylily. The release was delayed by two weeks, and I made a mistake. I felt obligated to be around for Gamer Supps, and I didn’t want to cancel on Numi or Shylily, so Red scrambled to figure out how we were going to make this work. However, there wasn’t a train to NYC that left late enough to stream and get to the concert in time. Red told me that he’d support whatever I decided, and ultimately I chose my career over my friend’s important event. I messaged Numi to tell her we wouldn’t be coming because of VCard and the responsibility I felt to be around for it. The way I saw it, it would’ve been like I was calling out of work during an important or busy weekend right after a big promotion to go on a friend’s weekend birthday trip. I’ve always taken my jobs seriously, even before streaming. After becoming a part owner I took that title seriously and put expectations on myself that not even the company did.

The collab with Shylily could’ve been rescheduled. There was no obligation for either of us to do it that day, or any other time, or to do the collab together at all. It was my idea and Shylily agreed to it. The only thing stopping me from rescheduling with her was the importance I put on being present for VCard’s launch weekend, and the pressure I put on myself in my new position. The collab itself wasn’t the main reason I made my choice, and it’s not as if I didn’t want to go to the concert. Red telling me Numi said it was okay if we didn’t go was also a factor in my decision. I’d come to find out that this was just Numi being Numi, and it really did mean a lot to her that we’d be there.

My brain goblins told me Numi would have lots of our other friends there cheering her on, and that my presence wouldn’t be missed if I wasn’t. I never told this to her either.

On the 28th, before I heard from Numi, Red was able to find a train at a different station that could get us to the show in time and still do the collab with Shylily if it was scheduled a little earlier. I messaged Numi to tell her we might actually be there, and Red messaged her later that night when we had a plan. We just needed to hear from her. He told her I was feeling guilty about my decision not to go in the first place.

Red’s messages to Numi:

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1/28/2025 - 1/29/2025 - I asked Shylily if we could start our collab an hour earlier to have more time to stream together before I had to leave to make the train. I didn’t tell Shylily about the concert. I just wanted everything to just work out.

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1/29/2025 - I was up super late that night feeling so stressed and guilty about my choices around Numi and her concert, and how disconnected I felt from a lot of my friends lately. Red and I were always so focused on work, and I never felt like I could “take time off”, even for the smallest things. I let down one of my best friends when I pulled out of her show, and even though I was still going now, I basically told her that I’d choose my job over being there for her. I’m not the type of person to make my feelings like this public very often, but I did.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1884522621489869162

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1/29/2025 - 1/30/2025 - Numi responded to me, told me how she felt, and I apologized to her. I’ve never been able to open up about my feelings, anxieties, self esteem, or insecurities, and I never even tried to go to Numi and talk things out sooner. She was getting mixed signals from Red and I, and I wish I handled communicating with her better.

I didn’t tell her about my collab with Shylily until now because that wasn’t the main reason behind the decision I made, and up until two days earlier, I was always coming to her concert. I didn’t want her to get the impression I was choosing Shylily over her.

I told Numi my part ownership announcement didn’t “make the splash I thought it would.” This was such a major and massive accomplishment to me and it felt like a lot of people, including some of my closest friends, didn’t notice or care. This made me put more pressure on myself to take the upcoming opportunity of VCard’s launch weekend to do my best to prove to the company that I deserved the part ownership in the first place, leading to my decision not to go to Numi’s concert.

When I told Numi about it in my message I said “For full transparency I made plans to collab with Lily the day after VCard's launch day, which would've been the 18th. But because the launch was pushed back, the collab was pushed to this weekend. I didn't really know how to tell her no so I planned it as early in the day as possible to be able to make the late train to NYC.” I thought I was clear by what I said that I was the one who made the plans, not Shylily. So when I said “I didn’t really know how to tell her no” I wasn't blaming Shylily for the collab I planned, but I understand how it could read that way. I was not okay when I wrote my message. What I meant was “I didn’t really know how to tell her no, the collab isn’t happening anymore”, or “I didn’t really know how to cancel on her.” My intention was not to somehow avoid blame and pin everything on Shylily to “save my ass”, as she put it, as if she was the entire reason I made the choices I did, when the rest of my message shows I accepted fault for my mistakes. And again, I didn’t even mention Shylily originally.

Saying I felt pressure to live up to what Shylily is for Gamer Supps was not me blaming Shylily either. I was explaining myself. The bar Shylily set is what I wanted to reach for the company and community now that I had the same part owner position. I put this pressure on myself, and it’s what led to me making the mistake of choosing business over my friend.

I felt so bad that I was willing to try getting on stage with Numi for at least one song, and to reschedule my collab with Shylily to be there sooner for her. I was willing to do anything to try to make this right. I never said the collab was something “I couldn’t miss.”

Despite what I did, Numi accepted my apology. It took me almost two hours to say anything else because I broke down. All of the stress I’ve been under and guilt of what I’ve done hit me after reading Numi’s message. This whole situation was a wake up call for me about how I’ve always bottled everything up, and what my priorities should be, and that I couldn’t let something like this happen again.

Now, I was anxious about seeing Numi knowing that I hurt her, and I didn’t want to bring the mood down if she felt weird about seeing me in a few days. I was overthinking everything. This was not a way for me to manipulate my way out of the situation. I messaged her again when I collected myself a few hours later to figure out our plans.

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2/1/2025 - This is the conversation Shylily and I had the day of our collab, and the concert. The first message from me was about a mistake that I explain in Shylily’s section of this document. After our collab I told her that I was going to Numi’s concert for the first and only time.

https://youtu.be/aGqatsLJuh0

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2/1/2025 - Red and I made it to the concert in time, and I was part of the off-collab Numi did in the hotel room the following day. Numi and I wore our matching shirts together, and we spent the rest of the weekend there with friends.

2/2/2025

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1886099414160224489

I was already planning to be at Numi’s next concert in the US, if not both of them. I wasn’t going to let Numi down again. These two shows happened at the end of July. I wasn’t there for obvious reasons.

3/21/2025 - 3/22/2025

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Shylily

Shylily’s reply to my apology for reference:

https://x.com/shylilytwitch/status/1916623888433463331

Posted after my apology on 4/27/2025 at 6:41 PM EST

Shylily was a friend, but I’ve never been close with her. I wanted to get to know her better because of how close she was to my other friends. She’s someone I’ve always looked up to. I saw her as a role model, and as of this year, a potential business partner. I wanted to live up to who she’s been for the vtuber community, and Gamer Supps now that I held the same title. She was the only example of a vtuber in that position before me, and set the bar for what a Gamer Supps part owner is and does. I’ve never been jealous of her, or envious of what she had, and I didn’t see her as my competition at any point.

Since October of 2024, Shylily and I had been messaging back and forth every now and then in our dms, leading up to our interactions before and during our VCard collab you saw in the previous section. From the second half of March, she stopped replying to my messages. It’s not odd to get busy and miss messages, and I was guilty of that all the time to too many people, but it was out of the ordinary and was going on for almost a whole month by the time I was canceled. This was alongside her seemingly dodging collabs we were both a part of and offputting reactions to me raiding her. I became anxious about what was going on in March and April because I viewed her in such high regard.

Shylily didn’t have her own document about me, and didn’t say anything until after I did, but she was the first one Nano contacted about any of this and was involved the entire way through. Shylily pulled everyone together to organize, plan, write, and post the documents that ended in my cancellation, and her lie filled reply to my apology was the final nail in my coffin. Her actions show she clearly had something against me before Nano ever said anything to her, and she couldn’t take accountability and admit to it until I was already in the ground. Shylily said she wanted her own section, so here it is.

I’ll show and explain everything I was experiencing with Shylily for the couple months leading up to what happened since it’s relevant to understand what Red told Nano in their messages. I won’t be repeating things that included Shylily in the previous section about VCard, and this section will pick up right before the release of the game and my collab with her.

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Everything is in chronological order, and all dates and times are in EST.

I’ve censored any private information or names of people who aren’t directly involved.

Screenshots that include messages that were in any of the documents are highlighted with a red border.

Screenshots that are directly of or taken from another document are highlighted with an orange border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

Video timestamps are linked to directly and highlighted in green .

Quotes from my apology are highlighted in gray .

Red’s own comments on anything being presented are labeled and highlighted in blue .

——————————

VCard Launch Information

I need to talk about this first, because I made a mistake and knew it upset Shylily, even if she couldn’t admit it to me.

1/26/2025 - Red and I were planning my stream for VCard’s launch day and asked Gamer Supps about Shylily’s “exclusive” unboxing stream to make sure we weren’t stepping on her toes. During my stream on the 31st, I didn’t start doing anything VCard related until 3pm EST out of respect for her. Red then gave Gamer Supps a list of questions I wrote down for him that my community had asked me about VCard on one of my previous streams.

1/30/2025 - Since the questions asked were stated to be from my community, and I wasn’t told that this information was confidential and couldn’t be shared, I assumed it was okay for me to tell my chat the answers to their questions on my stream. This stream was the day before the game’s launch day, and no info had been released on what was going on, how things would work, or what things were priced at. The information I gave made it onto the Gamer Supps or VCard subreddit, and into Shylily’s Discord server, both citing me specifically as the source.

Right after my stream ended, Gamer Supps sent me updated info about the box pricing.

1/31/2025 - This was the day VCard launched. Shylily talked about how angry and annoyed she was about VCard info leaking early, including incorrect info. She claimed she didn’t know who leaked information, saying “I guess people are just excited to be the ones to spread stuff before me.”

33:54 - 44:08 https://youtu.be/UYTYuSezyuA?t=2034

Of the info I gave out the day before, I was wrong about the price by five dollars, which I was only updated about after my stream ended. The other thing I advertised that I assumed would be the case, but was wrong about, was VCard being available twenty minutes early on the Gamer Supps app. All of their drops were consistently like this for a long time, but it was only on VCard’s launch day did Red and I find out that this was discontinued. Everything else was correct, but I didn’t know I wasn’t supposed to say anything about it.

Shylily said that official sources were the only ones with correct info, meaning herself and the Gamer Supps or VCard Twitter accounts. When someone asked if I was an official source, she said no. I was a part owner now, and I didn’t know there was a difference between me and the other official sources. I was given the information directly from the source, thought it was okay to make public, and thought I was doing the right thing by answering questions the community had. My motivation wasn’t to “be the first” to share this info. The community didn’t know what was going on just a day before the game launched, and instead of leaving them in the dark, I gave them the answers to the questions asked on their behalf. As a new part owner, people were looking to me for answers about VCard, and I thought I was doing the right thing by informing them. I was wrong to do so and made a mistake, and I made sure to correct the info I had wrong on my stream on launch day.

That night I messaged Shylily to apologize about what I did. After what happened with Numi two nights earlier, I was making an effort to be more open about things. Shylily avoided saying I was the person who was leaking info, or admitting I was who she was mad at. I was the only one who could’ve shared the incorrect price and was the one mistakenly advertising the early app preorders, and there were posts citing me as the source of all this leaked information. Shylily knew it was me, sounded pretty mad on stream at the leaker who was “excited to be the (one) to spread stuff before (her)”, but danced around it as if she was never mad at me. In the end, she praised me for “having the balls” to reach out to her about this.

2/16/2025 - In another conversation with Gamer Supps a couple weeks later, we asked for them to clarify to us what is and isn’t able to be shared publicly going forward, after what happened during VCard’s launch. I was told that “There was not really a certain source” the launch info was supposed to come from.

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2/5/2025 - The very last collab I had with Shylily was a few days after our VCard collab.

https://youtu.be/Ltkhi8LQFtM

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3/3/2025 - This was the first time either of us messaged each other since our VCard collab on February 1st. I asked Shylily if she wanted to play Split Fiction with me. It was a long game that we would’ve been able to bond over white getting to know each other better. She told me she’d pass on the game, and that was fine. Then I asked Numi, who was also unavailable. She told me that Yuzu was interested and I happily played through the game with her.

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3/11/2025 - The last time Shylily and I spoke was when she reached out to me about disconnecting problems she was having with OBS. Trying to fix my own disconnecting problems are what made me move back in with my parents before this conversation.

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After this there were two different REPO collabs Shylily and I were both supposed to be a part of. This was when I thought things started to change between me and Shylily.

3/21/2025 - This was the first REPO collab. It was originally going to be on the 15th, but was rescheduled to the 21st. Shylily was supposed to be there, but she decided to cancel last minute due to a Bikini Bottoms collab she had going on that day. I understood just like everyone else, and this alone wasn’t a problem to me.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_T5oZP6Oo

3/27/2025 - This second collab never happened, but was being planned in a group chat. Shylily was added to the chat but apparently couldn’t make it shortly after. She never messaged in this chat directly before she was removed. These are all of the messages here, and it never went anywhere after this.

——————————
From then, these are the rest of my dms with Shylily. Below I’ll explain them and other events that were happening in between.

3/28/2025 - I messaged Shylily the day after the above collab chat happened when the new VCard rules were announced and the TableTop Sim version was revealed. I would’ve thought she’d love the idea of playing together to advertise and show off the new rules of her game. It’d generate hype and renewed interest in VCard after lots of people were dissatisfied with the first edition’s game mechanics. It was an idea motivated by the business implications of it, but it was something to do together as friends that I thought we’d both be excited about. It would’ve benefited us both, and the entire brand.

3/30/2025 - I raided Shylily:

6:52:52 https://youtu.be/yDBEnZN4dso?t=24772

Shylily greeted the raiders and didn't say hi to me, or thank me for the raid. I didn’t see it when it happened, but If you were to watch for another five minutes, after she’d basically moved on with her stream, you’d see she then did quickly thank me for the raid. If she was able to greet my raiders when the raid first happened then why couldn’t she have also said hi and thanked me then? I wasn’t upset about this since it was just one raid. Nano’s document had a link to the exact timestamp this raid happened in Shylily's defense.

4/7/2025 - A week later, I still hadn’t heard from Shylily. I messaged her again about playing a different game together. I just wanted to hang out since she hadn’t been able to make the past two collabs that we were both supposed to be a part of, and maybe she didn’t like my idea about VCard. She turned me down when I asked about Split Fiction a month earlier, so it’s not like she hadn’t done that before, or couldn’t have done that again.

4/11/2025 - I raided Shylily again:

5:49:28 https://youtu.be/Vaz46f5QNZI?t=20968

Shylily didn’t say hi or thank me for the raid like you’d expect your friend to do, or any streamer to do. She said hi to my raiders, but didn’t thank them either. She goes on to read one of my chat messages, but this was the second time Shylily had an offputting reaction to me sending my community to her in the past couple weeks, coupled with removing herself from collabs I was a part of and ghosting my messages. This more recent raid was not linked in Nano’s document.

I decided to dm her again to bump what I sent her before. After still not hearing from her I was convinced I had done something wrong.

I wasn’t expecting an over the top reaction from Shylily just because I raided. Just a hello and thanks for the raid, like any other streamer would do, especially from someone who was a friend. In the past, Silvervale, who Red and I knew had a problem with me, purposely refused to say my name when I raided her. She continually ghosted my messages, and got a model from Nano at a suspicious time, among other things, which will all be shown in her section. These specific experiences with someone else who we knew didn’t like me further led both Red and I to believe that Shylily had a problem with me for some reason.

I wouldn’t have thought that the individual things I experienced with Shylily were pointing to a greater problem if they weren’t all happening over the same few weeks.

——————————

4/11/2025 - The same day as my second raid, Red saw Nano working on a new model for Shylily for the first time. He messaged her and asked questions about the timeline of the model.

In my apology I wrote:

Red: I didn’t share any of this conversation or the conversation above with Sinder because there wasn’t anything super meaningful or pressing I thought she needed to know about.

Red: I followed up with Nano about Lily because of the way she was acting towards Sinder over the past few weeks. It really seemed like Lily had a problem with Sinder.

Between these screenshots they were talking about something unrelated.

Red: It wasn’t either of us who had a problem with Lily or treating her differently for no apparent reason.

Red: These are my last messages with Nano. I guess saying anything bad about Lily was a step too far for her. I don’t know why if she did think I was lying about Lily for some reason she didn’t just ask me to verify what I was telling her instead of leaking our messages. I never asked, told, implied, or said anything to Nano about not working with Lily or canceling her model she already started, and I had no intention to.

——————————
4/15/2025 - I still hadn’t heard from Shylily, so I tried messaging Boeska about my previous dms to her.

Boeska told me Shylily “rarely uses Discord” and “only really uses it for business meetings and stuff”, which was weird because until these past few weeks, I didn’t have any problems getting a hold of her in our dms. I hadn’t had to message Boeska to get to Shylily since before October 2024, so this was out of the ordinary by now.

The messages below were the same day in the group chat with us and Shylily. I was fine with not doing anything together and I just wanted to hear from her since I had no idea if something was wrong. Nothing else was ever said in this chat.

Boeska told me Shylily would be “very occupied in the coming months” because of a trip somewhere, implying I shouldn’t expect to plan something.
——————————
4/21/2025 - This was my last message to Shylily, five days before anyone posted their documents. I tried to talk to her about whatever was going on and clear things up between us. Shylily never responded, even after praising me in the past for “having the balls” to reach out to her.

——————————

The Breakdown

Nanoless, Shylily, and almost a dozen of my friends planned the original documents about me. It took them two days to decide to cancel me. Everything was dropped on me out of nowhere, and somehow I was expected to have the perfect response to the claims they had already determined I was guilty of.

When I first started this document, I thought my friends all lied about me, Red, and Nano to protect her and hurt me. I couldn’t understand why. But as things came together, I was no longer convinced that was the case. It didn’t make sense for all of my closest friends to maliciously and willingly lie to the public about me at a moment’s notice, no matter what they thought I did to them. However, there’s one thing I believe happened that would connect all of their “lies” back to one place. At the start of this document, I said I was convinced there were two people who drastically influenced how things played out before and after my cancellation.

Shylily lied to Nanoless about her own actions towards me, telling Nanoless she was being manipulated when she wasn’t. Under the excuse of manipulation that Shylily gave to her, I believe Nanoless lied to everyone about her experience with Red and I to avoid accountability for any of her own actions. With Shylily supporting her, they lied to my friends, and they lied to you.

I believe my friends were manipulated by the last people they’d expect to be the manipulators. I believe what my other friends did and said were because they were misinformed about what really happened and were convinced to see things the way they weren’t. All of them were making or supporting accusations against me that “happened over years”, when the timeline for the things those accusations were based on was really only 5 to 8 months long, leading up to my cancellation on 4/26/2025. They were operating under a different set of information than me, and they used what they already knew to jump to conclusions. They may have also been manipulated not to contact me or Red for our sides of the story because it’d contradict what was being told to them.

In this section, I’ll be breaking down the documents and statements from Nanoless, Bao, Shylily and my other friends who were involved. I use their own words and all of the evidence in the past few sections to build a timeline of events, address their claims, and draw conclusions about how and why things happened the way they did.

——————————

Every topic is separated and all dates and times are in EST.

Screenshots that are directly of or taken from another document are highlighted with an orange border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

Video timestamps are linked to directly and highlighted in green .

Any sections based on speculation are labeled in pink .

——————————

Who was involved before anything was public?

Nanoless

Nano was the source of all of the Discord screenshots that were the starting point for all of the claims that followed. She posted the first document.

Shylily

Shylily was the first person Nano contacted about Red’s dms. She was involved in everything from the start.

Red’s messages to Nano about Bao were the heart of their claims. She was included as soon as she was able after her surgery. She posted her document minutes after Nano.

Numi

Numi's involvement is evidenced by Shylily’s knowledge of my private dms with her about her concert. She also gave a list of people who were involved on her stream on 4/28/2025.

The Other 3 Girliepops

I don’t believe they were a major part of planning anything that happened, and had no malicious involvement. They were only brought into this to help corroborate things the rest of them talked about.

Buffpup and the Other 3 VchiBan Members

Numi said that Buff and the other three VChiBan members were also included in their calls together. On Buff's stream from 7/22/2025 she basically said she and “a lot” of other people were involved before things were made public. The vod of this stream was made private within a week or two of it happening.

Sacramore

Bao’s video editor Sac had his document written and posted shortly after Bao’s. What Red said to Nano about Bao in January was about him too.

Of these 12 people, no one contacted me before everything was made public, and only one of them reached out to me right afterwards.

I don’t have evidence of anyone else being included on this list, although there’s more people I suspect to have at least been aware of what was happening beforehand, if not also involved in the planning themselves.

I do not believe anyone else who was mentioned in Nano’s document were involved at all in the planning of anything beforehand, including Cotton, Silvervale, and Spite. As Nano’s document states, their names were censored in it because none of them gave their consent for them to appear before it was posted. Seeing as they all made it known their names were the ones censored shortly after, they must have only been contacted very shortly before it was posted. Cotton tweeted one of Nano’s screenshots with her name uncensored about two hours after her document was posted, and Silvervale and Spite posted their own documents with Nano’s screenshots about 14 and 8 hours after Nano’s respectively.

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The 17 Day Timeline: 4/11/2025 - 4/28/2025

This is the timeline of what happened, starting with Red’s messages to Nano about Shylily on 4/11, and ending with Shylily’s stream on 4/28.

4/11/2025

Red saw Nano working on a model for Shylily on her stream and messaged her about it.

(Screenshots in Nano’s section)

I raided Shylily for a second time in the past couple weeks, and she had another off-putting response to it.

4/12/2025

Red messaged Nano about Shylily again and talked about her behavior towards me recently. This was the last time Nano messaged either one of us.

(Screenshots in Nano’s and Shylily’s sections)

4/14/2025 or 4/15/2025

Nano showed Shylily the things Red said about her. She was the first person Nano spoke to about it. Shylily told Nano Red was manipulating her, leading to Nano leaking more of their dms. Shylily told her to contact the people affected, including Bao.

Shylily said the screenshots Nano showed her were from “a few days ago” when she saw them. She said this was what "started it all."

Speculation:

Whether Nano decided to show Shylily more of her messages with Red herself, or Shylily actually asked if Red ever said anything about anyone else, I can’t say for certain, but can’t rule out the possibility. How much of the context and content of her messages Nano showed to Shylily is also unknown. Shylily convinced Nano she was being lied to, used, and manipulated. Shylily could’ve also instructed Nano to end contact and cut ties with Red and I, who she warned would continue to lie and manipulate her if she didn’t.

4/15/2025

I messaged Boeska since I hadn’t heard from Shylily directly in weeks. He implied she’d be too busy to plan anything with me anytime soon.

(Screenshots in Shylily’s section)

I messaged Nano for the last time, asking her to come on my stream again. She never replied.

(Screenshot in Nano’s section)

Akira, Nano’s “new manager”, messaged Red about Nano parting ways with us due to “artistic burnout.”

(Screenshots in Nano’s section)

4/16/2025

Red messaged Akira again for more clarification on what was happening with Nano.

(Screenshots in Nano’s section)

4/18/2025

Nano did not message Bao. Shylily did instead, telling her they needed to talk. Bao told Shylily she wasn’t in the right head space and to wait until after her surgery. However, it was rescheduled for Monday, 4/21/2025. They did not talk until after Bao recovered from surgery.

Speculation:

Nano could’ve messaged Bao about this too, like Shylily suggested, but apparently didn’t. Shylily was the one to reach out to Bao to tell her this information. Why?

4/21/2025 - 4/23/2025 Speculation

Sometime between these dates was when my other friends first were informed and got involved in what was happening. A few of them had plans to go to a Ren Faire between the 18th and 20th. Red and I were originally supposed to go too, but had to cancel because of family plans for Easter. I don't think Shylily would’ve told any of them about this while on their trip between these dates. The last message from any of my friends was from Numi in our dms on the night of the 21st. It was uncharacteristically short.

On her stream on 7/22/2025, Buff said that:

“With the “fire vtuber" that happened recently, a lot of us didn’t say anything until the person who was affected said something. And we all went to said person and said “Hey, what do you want to do?” And they said “I want to do this”, and we said “Okay girl, like you go do that and we’ll be here to support it.”

The way Buff said this implies that my friends all knew about what happened before “the person who was affected”, Bao, was even involved because of her surgery. “A lot of us didn’t say anything until the person who was affected said something” isn’t talking about saying something publicly, because right after, Buff said they asked that person what they wanted to do about the situation, which Bao revealed was her choice. The vod of this stream was made private within a week or two of it happening.

4/21/2025

I sent my last message to Shylily to talk about whatever was going on between us. She never replied.

(Screenshot in Shylily’s section)

Red sent a final message to Akira about Nano.

(Screenshots in Nano’s section)

Bao underwent her surgery and started recovery.

4/23/2025

Bao finally talked with Shylily about what was going on, and they made a group chat to gather evidence, corroborate stories, and plan the documents together. Bao’s editor Sacramore was involved sometime after this, most likely by her.

Bao’s document said “I found out about this less than 48 hours ago” at the time it was posted on the night of the 25th PST, and Lily said this was five days before her stream on the 28th.

Speculation:

It’s possible that Bao’s other editors, including my own video editor, may have known about this ahead of time too.

4/25 in PST, 4/26 in EST

Nano’s, Bao’s, and Sacramore’s documents were posted within the same twenty three minute span.

Nano’s at 1:42am EST.

(Screenshot in Nano’s section)

Bao’s just six minutes later, at 1:48am EST.

(Screenshot in Bao’s section)

And Sacramore’s seventeen minutes after that, at 2:05am EST.

(Screenshot in Bao’s section)

Sometime during this, both Red and I sent separate messages to Nano that were soon deleted, followed by her blocking us.

Speculation:

Their documents were posted together in the middle of the night in my timezone so I’d be asleep when it happened. I wouldn't have a chance to do or say anything to anyone before their narrative about me was widespread out of Shylily’s “fear” of me manipulating my way out of it.

Shortly before, Cotton, Silvervale, and Spite were contacted about their inclusion and possibly encouraged to make their own statements, evident by their names still being censored in Nano’s document when it was posted, but Cotton tweeting one of Nano’s uncensored screenshots just two hours after, and Silver’s and Spite’s documents posted the next day including Nano’s dm screenshots too, with their own names uncensored. They weren’t contacted by Nano, but I believe by Shylily, just like Bao was.

I had a fight and falling out with Red before 3:29am EST, which led to me firing him at 4:24am EST

(Screenshots in Red’s section)

The documents and statements posted by others throughout April 26th and 27th weren’t preplanned alongside Nano’s, Bao’s, and Sacramore’s, so I won’t list them here.

4/27/2025

I posted my apology at 4:16pm EST

(Screenshot in My Apology section)

Bao replied to my apology with her own post at 5:22pm EST

(Screenshot in Nano’s and Bao’s sections)

Shylily replied directly to my apology at 6:41pm EST

(Screenshot in Shylily’s section)

Bao streamed that night to talk about everything.

4/28/2025

Buffpup had her stream.

Shylily had her stream.

Numi had her stream.

Everyone else streamed their thoughts throughout the rest of the week.

——————————

Nano’s “New Manager” Speculation

The first thing that needs to be addressed is Nano’s “new manager”, whose messages were shown at the end of Nano’s section. Who is Akira, and how did they get involved? It’s very hard to believe they were ever actually Nano's manager, so how are they connected and how did they get in contact with Red?

Akira is the game director of Kernel Hearts, and founder of the game studio Emphemera Games in Argentina.

Akira follows Nanoless, but nowhere on their page does it say anything about Nanoless.

Nano does not follow Akira, and nowhere on her page, or website, does it say anything about Akira being her manager or business contact either. They’ve never interacted on Twitter either.

Mio, Nano’s husband who’s always acted as her manager, is present on Nano’s profile.

However, Momotexx follows Akira, as the screenshot above shows.

Momo is the lead artist of Akira’s upcoming game Kernel Hearts, and is also from Argentina.

https://x.com/KernelHearts/status/1887602440964628746

Momo is also close friends with Nano, who she saw irl on 5/2/2025, five days after I posted my apology on 4/27/2025, and a week after Nano posted her document.

https://x.com/Momotexx/status/1918369543254168050

I don’t know if Nano knew Akira already, but Momo is the only connection I could find between them.

In the past, Nano’s talked to her friends about things Red had said to her.

In November 2023, it was Nano’s friends who told her that it was unfair for Nano to only work with us. This is something Nano was confused about, and not something Red said to her.

In January 2025, Nano went to her friends for advice about exclusivity when talking business with Red.

In a conversation from 11/28/2024 that wasn’t shown in Nano’s section, Nano was shown to be leaking private artwork she was working on for my upcoming debut to her friend.

After speaking to Shylily about Red, could Nano have gone to her friend Momo who connected her with Akira to play the role as her “new manager” to Red? Akira was someone Red and I didn’t know, and now we know Red’s conversation with him wasn’t genuine, evident by what happened after, but also the fact Nano removed evidence of her ever being in the chat to begin with. She then made Red the group leader before leaving. To leave a Discord group you own, you need to manually choose someone to be the leader. She did not choose her “manager” Akira in this chat supposedly about her commissions. She chose Red to make it look like it was his group all along, and that she was never a part of it, because their actual goal was to separate us from Nano altogether.

So why was this done, and why do I think this was only after Nano spoke to Shylily?

Nano avoided ever communicating directly with either Red or I again after 4/12/2025, and I don’t believe she would’ve gone through this effort with Akira on her own. Everything started when Shylily told Nano that the things Red said about her were all lies and manipulation. Wouldn’t it be likely that at some point Shylily would suggest, or direct Nano to separate herself from Red and I to avoid being further lied to and manipulated? Nano then needed to find someone neither Red or I knew to separate us, since she couldn’t do it herself, the same way she couldn’t contact Bao herself and Shylily had to do it for her.

——————————

Nano’s Message Screenshots: Timezones and Context Speculation

Before going over Nano’s document, we discovered that some of Nano’s screenshots are dated in two different timezones relative to EST. Some one hour ahead, and some two hours ahead. For her screenshots to show this, Nano’s account would have to have been physically logged into in two different timezones when taking them sometime between 4/12/2025 - 4/26/2025. Nano would’ve had no reason to have these screenshots from conversations years apart and years earlier already taken before Red spoke to her on 4/12/2025, and must’ve had at least some taken during the same time as her conversation with Shylily just days later to show her.

This is the first screenshot shown in Nano’s document about the exclusivity deal. The first message is timestamped at 8:29pm.

This is Nano’s message in Red’s dms, shown as 6:29pm in EST. Nano’s screenshot is two hours ahead of EST.

This is one of the screenshots about Shylily in Nano’s document. The first message shows 10:16pm.

Here’s the message in Red’s dms showing 9:16pm EST. Nano’s screenshot is only one hour ahead.

If Nano was the one who took all of her own screenshots herself in the same two week span, from 4/12/2025 to 4/26/2025, this discrepancy shouldn’t exist. This shows Nano likely wasn’t acting alone when taking screenshots of her own dms that were shown in her document.

Here is a list of the dates and topics of the screenshots that appear in Nano’s document, and the time difference to EST. I’ve also listed which conversations were shown in full and which are missing context in her document:

5/10/2023 - 1 hour ahead - Spite

Does not show the full conversation, or everything that was said about Spite.

7/19/2023 - 1 hour ahead - Silvervale

Does not show the full conversation, or anything from the previous conversation about Silvervale from 5/10/2023.

11/19/2023 - 2 hours ahead - “Exclusivity” and “It’s just business”

Does not show the full conversation, and never showed the pivotal conversation that happened before this on 11/17/2023.

11/25/2023 - 2 hours ahead - “Exclusivity” and “It’s just business”

Does not show the full conversation, and is also missing the context from 11/17/2023.

11/26/2023 - 2 hours ahead - “Exclusivity” and “It’s just business” (Nano’s dms with me)

Does show the full conversation, but missing the context of anything from 11/17/2023, and was presented before any of the dms from 11/25/2023 with Red in Nano’s document.

8/5/2024 - 1 hour ahead - Bao

Does not show the full conversation, and doesn’t show any of the vital context from the conversation on 7/26/2024. It also doesn’t show any of the following dms on 8/6/2024, or what this situation led up to on 9/29/2024.

1/15/2025 - 2 hours ahead - The Exclusivity Deal

Does not show the full conversation, and what’s shown is manipulated to hide Nano’s guilt and acceptance of the deal with Red.

2/11/2025 - 2 hours ahead - Canceling the Exclusivity Deal (Nano’s dms with me)

Does not show the full conversation, and does not show Nano’s messages to Red canceling the deal from 2/10/2025.

4/12/2025 - 1 hour ahead - Shylily

Does show the full, relevant parts of the conversation. Nano said nothing incriminating, and everything Red said was claimed as false when it wasn’t.

The full context of what happened in Red and Nano’s dms would’ve shown Nano’s guilt and Red’s innocence.

——————————

Breaking Down Nano’s Document

Nano’s story in her document was the basis for any information from anyone else involved being made public, with her dms being the source of many of the claims made. How else could anyone come out publicly and use Nano’s messages with my manager as evidence unless she was a victim herself? Nano lied to my friends and lied to the public, saying that what was presented in her document was what truly happened. Let’s go through Nano’s document piece by piece.

Nano’s document for reference: Terminating my work with Sinder.

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 1:42 AM EST

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1916005023646916910

“I wanted to share my experience with Sinder and Red manipulating me…”

Nano wasn’t manipulated to do anything she didn’t want to at any point in any conversation with Red or I. Treating Nano well over the years we’ve worked with her is not manipulation. Red gossiping with his friend Nano about drama and his feelings towards other people without asking for anything in return is not manipulation. Red expressing his opinion without asking her to make any changes in her work is not manipulation. Both of us sympathizing with her point of view on different occasions is not manipulation. Red reassuring Nano about her wanting to cancel models, no matter whose it was, is not manipulation. Red telling Nano about what he had against Bao after she asked him to explain it to her is not manipulation. Red and Nano negotiating a mutually agreed upon deal is not manipulation.

“…using me…”

Nano was never “used.” She was a cherished work partner and friend to both me and Red. We both did everything we could for her, and I’ve praised her countless times on stream and to friends.

“…and dragging me into drama…”

Nano never had a problem with Red gossiping to her about drama. She had no problem talking about the drama about Bao in January, or about Shylily in April.

The only person Nano got tired of hearing about and wanted nothing to do with the drama related to her was Silvervale, because of her own relationship with her.

“…while sabotaging, slandering & spreading lies about people I thought were her closest friends.”

The only person Red had a hand in “sabotaging” was Bao, when Nano offered to him that she’d cancel Bao’s model in exchange for paying for her own model rigging. He didn’t go into the conversation with Nano looking to have anything canceled with Nano. He wanted to prevent Bao from working with her because of his own opinions as part of an exclusivity deal. He told Nano never mind when finding out about her model, before Nano said it was okay and inquired further before she offered to cancel it.

Red didn’t lie about anyone he talked to Nano about. Not Spite, Silver, Bao, or Shylily. Even if some things he said could’ve been wrong, everything he said to her was based on his own opinions, experiences, observations, and what he genuinely believed to be true. The way you’d talk to a friend. The same way my friends said how they thought Red and I worked together at home, and about what they were led to believe happened. He did not maliciously lie about anyone to sabotage them.

“I want to share what I’ve endured over the years.”

You’ve seen what Nano had to “endure” over the years in her section of this document.

“(I) wasn't sure if what I felt and experienced working was real or just burnout…”

This is the only time burnout is mentioned in Nano’s document, even though that was the entire reason “her manager” Akira told Red she wanted to stop working together about a week earlier. If Nano genuinely felt this way, then she showed no signs of it to either of us, including in her last messages to us.

The last time she implied feeling burnt out was seven months earlier in September 2024 when she canceled seven models herself.

The one and only time Nano specifically said she was feeling burnout to Red was in May of 2024, almost an entire year earlier. Nano never expressed to me directly that she ever felt this way.

“…I think this proves that I was lied to and manipulated over the course of years while working with Sinder.”

This is an interesting thing to say after knowing the full context of Nano’s dms with Red, and as you’ll see, how many lies are present in this document to manipulate the narrative to the public, and the fact my friends were lied to and manipulated to support her.

This was an assumption made to pin all the blame for Red’s words and actions on me, and there was no way Nano or anyone else could definitively say that in every single instance this was the case. It’s not true. The only evidence shown to argue this case was of three total screenshots of my dms with Nano that were from two conversations almost two years apart from each other where I was told more or less what happened between her and Red beforehand. Nano’s entire document purposely refers to both Red and I as one throughout it to push this assumption necessary to the narrative as fact.

An excuse as to why this document is not written like Nano would, and evidence that she did not write or put it together herself.

Below you’ll see that what's presented first in Nano’s document is what happened regarding Bao. Not by talking about herself, or the alleged abuse she experienced, or what happened first chronologically. Nano is on record saying she doesn’t care about Bao, so it’s puzzling why she chose to do this herself.

And before breaking down this section about Bao, I also need to point out the problem with the presentation of her model cancellation in Nano’s document. Bao’s model was canceled once in August of 2024 because Nano was overwhelmed with her workload, and again in January 2025 due to her offering and agreeing to do it in her deal with Red. Nano’s document misleads you into believing all of Red’s messages about Bao and her model are from one time, never specifying a difference in the presentation of messages that were over five months apart, but placing the dms from January 2025 right before August 2024. It then deceitfully manipulates the messages to leave out vital context and misconstrue what actually happened in each case.

“…spreading rumors while manipulating me that it’s all in our best interest.”

Nowhere in the screenshots presented does Red say to Nano that anything would be “all in our best interest.” Red has never said anything like this to Nano.

“…they also complain and accuse Bao of giving “their” editor too much work, resulting in the editor not having any time for new clients which will be important later on.”

Red did not make this claim against Bao, and said nothing about our video editor not having time for new clients. Our editor wasn’t seeking to take on more clients, and was content editing for me and Bao only. This is what he said, which is what the screenshots below show in her document.

And this couldn’t have been confused with Bao’s editor. Not only because she specified she was talking about our editor in what was written, but because Red’s dms specify our editor and her editor as different people in the same conversation that’s shown next.

This claim was only made to push the false narrative that we were maliciously overworking Nano, which is brought up later in her document.

“The screenshots below show them showing their affection & appreciation immediately followed by spreading rumors and lies to make other clients appear problematic to manipulate any future decisions regarding commissions.”

Here is a direct claim of manipulation by Nano, with screenshotted evidence presented. However, when you have the full context, you can see the “affection & appreciation” Red showed was in response to Nano’s own messages that were purposely cut from the document. Why weren’t these messages shown?

Next are three screenshots from January 2025 presented in her document. As you saw in Nano’s section, this was not the beginning of Red’s conversation with Nano about their exclusivity deal, but this is where it was chosen to start. The messages have been purposely manipulated to remove context, so I’ve added back what was missing in their messages between these images, highlighted with a white border. I’ve done so for the rest of her document too. I’ve also dated each non sequential screenshot Nano presented in EST, like they’re dated in Red’s screenshots, to show when each one happened. The chronology of events was disregarded in her document to push its narrative. I’ve also labeled the difference in time in the screenshots compared to EST due to the timezone discrepancy I talked about.

Note: The first image shown in Nano’s document has Red’s message about Cotton edited out of it. Nano, having no relationship with Cotton, would have no reason to do this herself, and this message was included in the screenshot in Bao’s document. Nano said, “I don’t really care about Bao and Cotton.”

Screenshots from 1/15/2025 at 6:25 PM - 6:54 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

What is presented next is a screenshot from over five months prior, in August of 2024, when Bao’s model was canceled the first time.

Screenshot in this image is from 8/5/2024 at 3:13 PM EST, shown as one hour ahead of EST

“Red asked me to cancel on one of their closest friends (Bao) by asking me to cancel my work mid progress…”

Nano’s document never shows where Red asked Nano to cancel Bao’s model because it didn’t happen. Bao’s model was canceled, but he did not ask her to do it. Not in August of 2024 or in January of 2025. In the instance last year shown above in Nano’s document, she was the one to bring up and consider canceling Bao’s model. All Red did was reassure her in 2024 that it was okay to do so since that is what she implied she wanted, and ended up going through with it herself.

Plus, about a week before it was canceled, Nano told Red that Bao’s model hadn’t even been started. How could it have been canceled mid progress?

Even though Nano’s document only presents Bao’s model being canceled once, and the evidence shown above was from August 2024, let’s assume that Bao’s model was canceled mid progress in January 2025. Well in January, Nano told Red Bao’s model was “on (her) list.” As in, on her commission list, and not mid progress. I do not believe Nano would cancel a project if she had any significant amount of work invested into it already.

Red did not ask her to cancel Bao’s model in January either. Nano offered and agreed to do it in their deal, but that wasn’t shown or mentioned in Nano’s document at all. The document could only show Bao’s model being canceled in August because it couldn’t show anything about it in January without implicating Nano herself. The narrative that Nano was a victim would fall apart because she gladly and willingly offered and agreed to a deal where she benefited at Bao’s expense. In addition, it was easy for her to offer to cancel the model again because of the fact it was not mid progress.

“It was upsetting to me that Red contacted me specifically to check on me canceling the model I had planned with Bao.”

Her document also doesn’t show where Red supposedly contacted Nano “specifically to check on (her) canceling the model (she) had planned with Bao” because it doesn’t exist. He messaged her to see if she decided to cancel any other projects she expressed interest in canceling that they previously discussed, to which she replied “(not) yet.”

And I can imagine how “upsetting” this all must’ve been for her, considering she was the one who brought up canceling Bao’s model in the first place in August, even telling her that she didn’t think she could finish her model, and in January was the one who offered to cancel Bao’s model in exchange for paying for her own model’s rigging.

“…they mentioned wanting an exclusivity contract, but they didn’t want to pay for exclusivity…”

Neither Red or I had a problem with paying Nano for model exclusivity, which was shown with our video editor, Artist #1, and Artist #2, who will be shown in Silvervale’s section.

To our video editor:

To Artist #1:

To Artist #2

Nano said she’d want a monthly fee, and Red explained to her what we were looking for, which led to him talking about the three people he didn’t want her to work with.

Afterwards, Nano offered to cancel Bao’s model in exchange for paying for her model rigging, and that an exclusivity deal “about new babies” would be separate from the deal they eventually came to.

They made a mutual agreement without general model exclusivity and payment being involved. Why wasn’t this shown in Nano’s document?

“…but rather when a creator from their blacklist comes asking for a commission, they would guarantee me model work for Sinder only and if anyone asked me for commissions they’d commission me instead to compensate for not working with other creators. This felt very strange…”

Red told Nano that if Silvervale asked her for art, we’d replace that work with our own art project. He did not specify model work, or say anything about “Sinder only.” It must not have “felt very strange” to Nano at the time, because she said herself “it do be fair”, then accepted the deal, willingly doing this to Silvervale for her own gain.

This was only in regards to Silver, like Red says directly above, and never once did he suggest this applied to anyone else who’d ask her for a commission like Nano’s document just claimed.

“…one of the accusations they made was overworking their editor…”

As you saw, this was never an accusation Red made about Bao, and this was the closest thing he said. Earlier in the document it said this baseless claim about overworking our editor would be important later on so it could support another baseless claim presented here.

“…yet their “solution” to me working with other creators was for them to essentially overwork me to keep me from working on other projects.”

This is everything we commissioned Nano for in the past year. Nano willingly and excitedly accepted and made time for everything listed here, and besides the increase in Gamer Supps work, our project cadence with her has always been consistent. We’ve always had Nano make my models and outfits with a new starting screen for each of my debuts. We went to her for any major artwork for Gamer Supps projects because of how important she was to my brand image, and how important they were to her, with the exception of my VCard artworks specifically because they would’ve overloaded her schedule. She could have always turned us down if she wanted to, and if she couldn’t take our work at the time, we would’ve either found another artist or pushed our plans back for her like we always have.

March 2024 - Gamer Supps Waifu Cup art
April 2024 - 2.0 model Pyro Pup addition
May 2024 - Unreleased Gamer Supps art
June 2024 - Bikini model outfit
August 2024 - Heavenhound model
October 2024 - Unreleased Gamer Supps art
November 2024 - Heavenhound starting screen art
December 2024 - Unreleased Gamer Supps art
January 2025 - Gamer Supps AFK label art
February 2025 - Sleepy model
March 2025 - Sleepy starting screen art

The argument that we were “overworking her” to purposefully keep her from other projects is objectively false. The only project she was “kept from” was when she offered to cancel Bao’s model and made a deal with Red in January. And any potential Silvervale projects she would’ve been “kept from”, she never was, because she went back on her agreement a week after her model’s rigging was paid for, and as soon as Silver asked her for artwork. Silver didn’t lose out on working with Nano.

The last time she implied feeling overworked was seven months earlier in September 2024 when she canceled seven models herself, and had no problem doing so when she wanted to lighten her workload. She could’ve done the same to us, but never did. She “just wanted to do Sinder stuff.”

Nano’s document goes from:

“…they didn’t want to pay for exclusivity…”

Which was untrue. Nano said new model exclusivity would be a different deal than what her and Red eventually agreed on, and payment wasn’t included in the deal they made.

To:

“…but rather when a creator from their blacklist comes asking for a commission, they would guarantee me model work for Sinder only…”

By terms of the agreement she agreed to, if she turned down a commission for Silvervale, we’d replace any income with a project of our own that she’d otherwise lose by doing so.

To:

“…yet their “solution” to me working with other creators was for them to essentially overwork me to keep me from working on other projects.”

The “solution” was the deal Red and Nano agreed to, but wasn’t shown in her document. How could we have been “overworking” Nano by replacing Silvervale’s projects she would’ve otherwise accepted anyway? Does that mean when Silver asked her for artwork and Nano walked back on the deal, Silver was then overworking her? Or only if she turned Silver down and we gave her a replacement project, then that would be us overworking her? This conclusion doesn’t make sense and is a blatant lie about what happened, strung together to make it sound like we were abusing Nano when we weren’t.

“…their primary concern is that the more non Sinder models I make, the less “valuable” my existing models become… that by working with other people I’m somehow making my existing models less special.”

I’m just going to quote a part of what Red said in Nano’s section about this. His full reasoning can be found there:

“To (Red) it was a matter of supply and demand. Just like a rare trading card, the more models Nano made, and the more often she would, the less valuable they’d become for the people who have them. Nano’s models are all of incredible quality, extremely unique, and highly sought after, but they’d each individually be “less special”, or valuable, if there were 100 of them rather than only 10. From a vtuber’s perspective, your visual identity is extremely important. Your design, your model, and its art style are a huge part of what makes them who they are and how they’re represented and recognized. The fewer vtubers with their model’s art style, the more unique it is to have it. They stand out more, and it becomes a more personal, defining feature of that vtuber, representing that artist. We all know of at least one vtuber who has the only model from a certain artist, or one of a handful of models from them. The more models that artist makes, and the easier it is to get one, will inherently lessen the perceived value of the vtubers’ visual identities who have those models.”

“Following screenshot is of them setting up the blacklist, saying I am not allowed to work with any new clients or create any new outfits for (Silvervale) specifically & justifying those things by saying that with each model, my art becomes less unique & special and therefore Sinder somehow will become less special.”

The following screenshot is of Red stating the terms to start negotiating an exclusivity deal, specifying that her existing model clients and her artwork commissions would be unaffected. How Red justified the terms he started with doesn’t matter, Nano didn’t have to agree with him. They never spoke about his thought process here and still reached an agreement at the end of their conversation.

“The idea that my work as an artist and designer is devalued by working with other people is insane and hurtful.”

Red’s model ideology should never have been shared with Nano unless he actually explained to her what he was talking about. He never forced Nano to agree with him, and both of us could see and understand both sides of the argument, which is why it wasn’t brought up since 2023 until he went to Nano about exclusivity. Nano didn’t push back or question it when Red said it and was still willing to negotiate an exclusivity deal that would’ve prevented her from working with other people.

“After realizing what taking a deal with them would really mean for both my workload and my mental health I backed out.”

The way this is written makes it seem like Nano never agreed to a deal with Red, when she actually did, but it’s purposely never shown in her document. Nano said the deal was fair and gladly accepted it, but it’s specifically cut off in the screenshots from her document. Red asked her to confirm the details of their agreement and she did. She only backed out a month later after she had already gotten what she wanted and because Silver approached her for a commission and she couldn’t turn her down. Her messages canceling the deal to Red were, again, never shown. Her workload wasn’t and wouldn’t have been affected at all, other than her having less work after canceling Bao’s model, which was presented as only happening once in her document.

Screenshot from 1/15/2025 at 4:48 PM - 6:12 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

Then the screenshots jump to the end of their conversation an hour later, but cut off right before Nano calls the deal fair and accepts it to make the argument she never agreed to a deal with Red.

Screenshot from 1/15/2025 at 7:00 PM - 7:05 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

“Another example of speaking ill of other creators right after they saw I was working with Shylily, trying to once again make the idea of working with other clients seem like I am setting myself up with problematic people… to get me to reconsider working with them.”

That’s not at all what happened or was implied to Nano by Red in their conversation. At no point did he say anything about reconsidering work with Shylily, or to cancel her plans. Red told Nano what I’d been experiencing with Shylily because he thought that her working with Nano on a model could be correlated, and he’s always gossiped with her as his friend.

“They also continuously kept asking about my other clients’ plans…”

Which had been done for well over two years between Red and Nano, with her willingly sharing them, even about Shylily which is what this is in reference to. For Nano to suddenly imply this was a problem to her is contradictory to years of her own behavior.

“…and immediately went into slandering Lily.”

Red did not slander Shylily. The things Red told Nano were true to what I was actually experiencing with her.

“…keep trying to bring drama in as reasons for me to go exclusive and that working only with Sinder is them trying to look out for me.”

The deal Red and Nano had was made three months earlier, and ended two months before this conversation. It only involved three people. Nano and Red never talked about exclusivity beyond what happened there, and Nano never said it was off the table. Red wouldn’t have had to convince her to go exclusive, somehow using drama to do that. It was a matter of making another deal, like Nano said. She was the first one to bring up the possibility of exclusivity.

In their conversation about Shylily, there was nothing about exclusivity, working only with me, that this drama was any kind of reason for her to do so, or Red ever saying he was looking out for her. This claim misleads you again to believe that Nano never agreed to a deal with Red to begin with when she actually did.

These screenshots were from April of 2025.

Screenshots from 4/12/2025 at 9:16 PM - 9:25 PM EST, shown as one hour ahead of EST

“The idea that they need to “stay informed” & “gauge the competition” is extremely upsetting and toxic to me.”

Sharing her plans has never bothered Nano in the years of working with Red, and for her to flip her opinion of this out of nowhere is unbelievable. Besides willingly sharing what she was doing with Shylily two weeks before I was canceled, she even shared her project plans with Silvervale after canceling her deal with Red because of it.

And Red never used the phrase "gauge the competition” like is quoted in Nano’s document. These are the closest things he said.

“The “competition” they’re referring to are people I thought they considered friends, who always helped, supported, and platformed Sinder.”

The “competition” referred to in the messages shown was one person, not plural. Red said he thought we’d have to start considering Shylily as competition with how she was treating me at the time of this conversation. I did not start to view her this way and only wanted to fix what was going on, evident in my message to her on 4/21/2025.

“When I pushed back the immediate response was blaming the other creators and implying that they “initiated” it by trying to work with me…”

No, Shylily working with Nano was not the catalyst for Red thinking this way, but it was the reason he talked to Nano about her. Again, this conversation is about Shylily, not plural “creators.” Red said to Nano that it felt like we’d have to compete with Shylily, and start considering her as competition, because of her unwarranted actions and change in attitude towards me. She was not treating me like a friend, and working with Nano on a new model was just another thing on top of what I was already experiencing that Red thought was related.

“…and that somehow justified their actions.”

What actions? What action did Red take against Shylily in his messages to Nano besides asking Nano questions and daring to tell her what Shylily was doing towards me?

“They imply Lily ignored Sinder when she spent over a minute thanking the raid which you can see in this clip.”

Red said Shylily wouldn’t acknowledge me by name, not ignore my raid. Red clearly says in his messages to Nano that I raided Shylily “a couple times”, but Nano’s document only addressed one of them.

Nano included an exact time stamped link to one of the two times I raided Shylily that Red told her about in Shylily’s defense. Here’s the link to that raid from 3/30/2025.

6:52:52 https://youtu.be/yDBEnZN4dso?t=24772

Shylily greeted the raiders and didn't say hi to me, or thank me for the raid. I didn’t see it when it happened, but If you were to watch for another five minutes, after she’d basically moved on with her stream, you’d see she then did quickly thank me for the raid. If she was able to greet my raiders when the raid first happened, then why couldn’t she have also said hi and thanked me then? I wasn’t upset about this since it was just one raid.

However, what wasn’t linked in Nano’s document was the second, more recent raid Red told Nano about from 4/11/25, a day before he spoke to her about how Shylily was acting.

5:49:28 https://youtu.be/Vaz46f5QNZI?t=20968

Shylily didn’t say hi or thank me for the raid like you’d expect your friend to do, or any streamer to do. She said hi to my raiders, but didn’t thank them either. She goes on to read one of my chat messages, but this was the second time Shylily had an offputting reaction to me sending my community to her in the past couple weeks, coupled with removing herself from collabs I was a part of and ghosting my messages. The same day as this raid, Red saw Nano working on a new model for Shylily for the first time. He thought it could be connected to how she was acting towards me.

In the past, Silvervale, who Red and I knew had a problem with me, purposely refused to say my name when I raided her, continually ghosted my messages, and got a model from Nano at a suspicious time, among other things, which will all be shown in her section. These specific experiences with someone else who we knew didn’t like me further led both Red and I to believe that Shylily had something wrong with me for some reason.

I will talk about my raids to Shylily again when I go over the things she said herself.

Screenshots from 4/12/2025 at 9:29 PM - 10:02 PM EST, shown as one hour ahead of EST

The drama Nano’s talking about in the next screenshot is specifically in regards to Silvervale after she canceled the exclusivity deal. The only time Nano had ever said she didn’t want to be involved in drama was around Silvervale. She never had a problem with Red gossiping to her about drama, and had no problem talking about the drama about Bao in January, or about Shylily in April.

The “baseless claims” being referred to here was me telling Nano people were still comparing us to this day, which was true and had affected me for years.

I agree that I was guilt tripping Nano with this message. I was upset that she went back on this deal because it was a last resort that could’ve ended one of the biggest direct comparisons people drew about me and Silver when she eventually got a new model from someone else. The outcome of this conversation and Nano’s decision didn’t change because of it, and we reached a mutual understanding.

These screenshots below were two months before the conversation Red had with her about Shylily, in February of 2025, when she told me about her canceling her agreement with Red.

Screenshots from 2/11/2025 at 5:18 PM - 9:13 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

Her messages canceling the deal with Red the day before she messaged me about it were never shown in her document.

“Justifying their behavior by stating that they are simply looking out for me…”

Once again, where is the message where either of us state “that (we) are simply looking out for (Nano)?” I justified my behavior with how I felt towards Silvervale because of the actions of her and her community towards me. When Nano came to me about how she felt and didn’t want to be involved in drama around Silver, I was okay with it and didn’t hold it against her. She didn’t need to agree to the terms of the exclusivity deal if she didn’t agree with Silvervale being included, but she did.

“…and manipulating me into being grateful for earning well thanks to them despite the loss of work from long time returning clients and new clients.”

Nano was not manipulated to say what she said to me. There was no loss of work for Nano with Silvervale, or any other clients due to mine or Red’s actions. The reason why she ultimately went back on the deal she agreed to was because Silver approached her about a commission, and Nano couldn’t turn it down.

“Another example of going after other clients of mine from before, claiming that having more clients alongside them makes my work less special with the recurrence of “it’s just business.””

Neither of us have “gone after other clients of hers”, unless you count Red and Nano’s negotiations about exclusivity.

Here is what Red said about Nano’s work being less special from November 2023, which was referred to in the screenshots in my dms shown in Nano’s document below. This is what he said, and there was no conversation further about it. It was the one and only time he brought up the value of Nano’s model other than mentioning it once when negotiating their exclusivity deal in January 2025.

As was explained before, the dishonest framing of “it’s just business” by Nano’s document was intentional. The conversation with the use of “it’s just business” was from November of 2023. Nano clearly understood what we meant by it back then for it to never have come up again until her document was written.

“Manipulating me into believing that working with her is special for multiple reasons and that I risk losing that special something as a client if I “prefer” to work with others.”

I agree that me saying “But if you prefer to work with other clients instead of me…” was guilt tripping her. I regret how I phrased this, but I already accepted her decision by my use of “it’s just business” like Red had said to her the day before. Neither me or Red tried to change Nano’s opinion or her decision, and she was not manipulated to change her position on what she wanted. We both agreed with her and accepted it.

I thought that I wouldn’t be a “Nano model only” vtuber anymore because of her not having a lot of time for my projects to keep up with my model cadence. I thought I’d have to find another model artist, which is why I reminisced about my first model with her. I told her it felt special to “only have her model art for my outfits”, and to let me know if she wouldn’t have time for me to only use her artwork for my models, not to be the one, single vtuber with her model art.

“No acknowledgement of my reasoning & need of working with other clients due to the nature of my work. Solely focused on their issues.”

Here’s what was said to Nano in both mine and Red’s dms with her during this situation. All of these messages are from the same conversation and appear in the screenshots from Nano’s document below, however they’re separated among three topics the document covers. Red and I understood Nano’s position and agreed with her. We didn’t force her into anything, or force her into thinking a certain way to her own detriment.

Yes, Red spoke for me all the time to lots of different people because that’s been his job as my manager, and I trusted him. But Red also spoke for himself, and for the brand. No, we didn’t always agree on our feelings or wants. There’s been many times he’s had to walk things back because I disagreed, or we’ve had to compromise on decisions. To assume that in every single instance for forever that we were 100% in agreement on things is crazy. There were a total of two times Nano had ever messaged me about her conversations with Red. This situation from 2023, and when she canceled the exclusivity deal in 2025.

Like I pointed out when talking about “it’s just business” in Nano’s section, Nano’s document presents my conversation with Nano from this situation before any of the context of Red’s conversation with her that happened a day earlier, deceptively masking the context of my use of the phrase. Unless you were paying attention to the dates of the messages in Nano’s document, you’d never know the timeline of events.

Screenshot from 11/26/2023 at 1:03 PM - 5:22 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

In the full context of the conversation from the screenshots below, Red never said anything about Nano being exclusive to us, or ever told her to only work on Sinder related things. He never said every design was a “Sinder clone”, because his reasoning wasn’t about other models being Sinder clones. The messages in this screenshot happened in November of 2023, over a year before the exclusivity deal, but Nano’s document doesn’t point that out. Here is everything Red said that Nano took as him asking her to not work with anyone but me. He was confused in his message because he never asked her to do this, or was somehow making her do this.

Red’s full thought process behind Nano’s work being “less special” and no longer unique was explained in her section, but he didn’t explain his point of view to her. This was not a black and white issue, and Red and I could understand both sides of it, ultimately sympathizing and agreeing with Nano’s perspective.

Screenshots from 11/25/2023 at 8:46 AM - 8:59 AM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

Both mine and Red’s use of “it’s just business”, or similar phrases, were dishonestly misinterpreted and twisted to fit the idea that it was to somehow justify sabotaging others. Like I explained before, the phrase was used to accept Nano’s decision in 2023, regardless of our feelings on that decision. If you were to actually read the screenshots that were presented in Nano’s document right below this, you’d understand that in no way is Red using the phrase “business is business” to try and sabotage anyone.

If you only look at my messages without the context of Red’s conversation with Nano happening the day before, then it looks like I’m saying “it’s just business” about Nano canceling models. That is not what I meant. I spoke to Red about his conversation with Nano before hearing from her, and my use of “it’s just business” was in reference to what he said. Presented out of order, out of context, and if you’re someone other than Nano who hadn’t experienced talking to Red and I back to back in this situation, you’d see my message to Nano and get the wrong idea. Nano’s document purposely showed my message first, without any context before it, to manipulate the narrative.

Screenshots from 11/25/2023 at 9:00 AM - 9:24 AM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST, and continuing from the above.

“Making sure none of this reaches the other vtubers & is all kept hush hush, while also providing proof that they know what they do is ill intended & should not get out, as it would cause issues for Sinder’s career to be painted in this light.”

The example shown in the next screenshot is after Nano canceled Silvervale’s model. Red did not ask her to, make her do it, or target Silver in any way. Obviously he wouldn’t want Nano to tell Silver it was my fault, because it wasn’t, or the fact they were talking about her at all. The only other time Red asked Nano to keep things between them about another vtuber was when they made their exclusivity deal. Not only to keep what he said between them from the other vtubers, but to keep what he said and did against Bao from me too.

“Note that the uncalled shot at (Silvervale) is even spoilered (a hidden message in discord) so it wouldn’t accidentally be leaked.”

Pointing out and claiming a message was hidden “so it wouldn’t accidentally be leaked” as the reason doesn’t make any sense. Red fully trusted Nano to keep things private between them, not just this one censored message. Who else would that one message in Nano’s dms, that was immediately buried, be accidentally leaked to if it wasn’t spoilered? Nano leaked that exact message here, and hiding did nothing to stop it from getting leaked after all.

Screenshot from 11/25/2023 at 9:30 AM - 9:34 AM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

Screenshot from 11/19/2023 at 2:50 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

“The constant obsession with Silvervale…”

There were a total of three major instances where Silver came up in Red’s messages with Nano, two of which were in 2023, and the other in January 2025, and in the aftermath of those cases were the only times Nano and I talked about her. My experience with Silvervale is explained in her section of this document.

“…claiming that she is asking for it by causing this “unspoken competition” which is coming from absolutely no other source than Sinder herself.”

No other source other than Red. These are Red’s words. He did not say “she was asking for it”, and sympathized with Silver’s perspective. This exact screenshot is what’s shown next in Nano’s document. I did view Silver as competition, but not until 2024, which will be shown in her section.

Screenshot from 7/19/2023 at 11:46 AM EST, shown as one hour ahead of EST

Screenshot from 7/19/2023 at 11:51 AM EST, shown as one hour ahead of EST

And the last image Nano presents below is from May 2023, where Red is talking about Spite, not Silvervale, but it’s never pointed out that this is about someone else or from a different time. This is all that was shown about Spite, and Nano’s document didn’t include anything about Red asking and Nano agreeing she wouldn’t work with Spite for some reason, even though it’d help Nano’s case.

Screenshot from 5/10/2023 at 3:14 AM - 3:16 AM EST, shown as one hour ahead of EST

“I’d like to highlight the irony of expecting to be entitled to recognition for her own efforts and size when her own active efforts are tied to sabotaging this very same vtuber.”

Me trying to gain Silver’s recognition came far before there was any kind of effort to ever try doing anything against her. They were not simultaneous, and a huge majority of the context around my relationship with Silvervale over the years was never explained to the public, including by myself in my apology.

“ Also feeling entitled & insisting to be recognized by someone else is odd.”

I didn’t feel entitled to be recognized by her, I felt pressured to. On one hand I was being harassed for being similar to her, and on the other I was constantly asked to do things with her. If at the bare minimum we could get along on Twitter, it would’ve stopped the hate and satisfied the fans wanting us to interact. Similar to how another couple popular vtubers that had beef in the past publicly ended the feud between them. But Silver couldn’t allow herself to do even that.

“I hope everything makes sense & everyone who has been hurt, manipulated, or sabotaged by her will find closure.”

I hope the events presented here make even more sense than they did before.

——————————

Nano’s Message Screenshots: Manipulation Speculation

Another thing I’d like to point out is the fact that Nano’s screenshots present in both her and Bao’s documents were manipulated after Nano had already given them to Shylily and Bao. Meaning that someone helped Nano cover up information, and proving Nano did not originally present the screenshots to them this way.

Here is one of the screenshots in Nano’s document. The bottom is cut off.

Here is the same screenshot from Bao’s document. The image is in higher quality, the censorship is done differently, and the bottom where Nano says the deal was fair is present. Nano was the only one who could’ve had these screenshots from her dms with Red to give to Bao to use. Even the timestamps of the dms are the same.

If Bao’s document had the full screenshot, then that means Nano showed them the full screenshot. But at some point after showing Shylily, Bao, and my friends, it was decided to edit the screenshot in Nano’s document to crop out her calling the deal fair, removing her guilt.

Another example is of the image of Red’s message about Cotton.

In Nano’s document, the message about Cotton is deliberately doctored out of the image, as if it never existed. Nano, who had no relationship with Cotton and is on record saying she didn’t care about her, would have had no reason to do this.

But Bao’s document shows the message and just censors Cotton’s name. It also contains the message at the bottom unlike the screenshot Nano’s used. I’m unsure why Bao’s own name is censored in the screenshot from her document.

So if my friends knew what the full screenshots showed here, but they were manipulated in Nano’s document before showing them to the public, then who did it? At the very least I know that Nano’s specific message calling their deal with Red fair was seen by Shylily, Bao, and my friends.

My friends who were involved are not stupid. They wouldn’t have done this to me if Nano didn’t show them everything that happened first, right? I originally thought that, as my friends, they would’ve wanted to be fully informed on everything that happened before making their decision to cancel me.

Unless, the first person Nano contacted, the one who told Nano she was being manipulated to begin with, the one who contacted Bao for her, was backing all of her claims to them. I believe with Shylily already on her side, Nano lied to her about her experiences with us from the start to hide her own guilt and push it all onto us. How could she show Shylily what she did and said about one of her best friends, Bao?

If Shylily was only shown the snippets of the dms that Nano chose to show her, she wouldn’t have cared what the full context was. Shylily saw what Red said about her, and that was enough for her to agree with whatever story Nano told her with whatever little evidence was given for it. The rest of my friends could’ve just been told by Shylily and Nano what happened and also weren’t shown anything beyond Nano’s cherry picked screenshots, completely trusting in their story, and jumping to conclusions because of their past experiences. Especially in Bao’s case, who was right out of surgery, whose most trusted friends were telling her what happened, and posted her document two days later. Supporting the idea that they may not have seen everything is that no one tried to contact me about any of this, and may have been manipulated not to under the guise that I’d be the one to manipulate them. If they did, they would’ve heard a contradicting story.

——————————

What was Nano’s motive to leak messages to Shylily and to eventually post this document? Speculation

Everything that was posted was on top of Nano’s claims, but if her story isn’t true, she wasn’t manipulated, and Red didn’t lie to her, then what was her motivation?

Nano’s “manager” Akira told Red that Nano wouldn’t be working with us anymore due to artistic burnout, and for no other reason. Burnout is mentioned once in Nano’s document, and she showed no signs of burnout in our conversations with her for seven months. Since I was canceled,she’s continued to work on more than plenty of projects. It doesn't make sense as a motive.

As can be seen from our dms, Nano was always treated well by us and was always excited to work on my projects, even right up to her last messages to us. Not wanting to work together wouldn’t be her motive.

Since working with Nano, my work alone has made her over $100,000, with about $60,000 of that being within the last year from when I was canceled. Given that I was her most frequent client, she wouldn’t have had a monetary reason to do this.

Nano’s reasoning behind many of her claims written in her document are contradictory to how she behaved for years, and how she responded to situations when they happened. Those couldn’t have been her motive.

Nano only leaked her dms with Red after he talked to her about Shylily. Why was that her turning point? If Nano had concerns about what Red was saying about Shylily then why didn’t she ask him for evidence? Why didn’t she come talk to me about it?

Because she suspected Red, who’s been on her side for years, of lying before she’d ever suspect the Shylily of any wrongdoing.

I believe Nano was curious about the things Red said about Shylily and asked her about them. Shylily lied to Nano about her own actions and told her she was being manipulated by Red. If we’re to believe that Nano was so easily manipulated by my manager in their casual conversation, then how likely is it that Nano could’ve been manipulated, used, or pressured by the biggest, pissed off indie vtuber Shylily directly throughout this whole ordeal?

Nano betrayed Red’s trust in her after believing everything Shylily said and either willingly leaked more dms to Shylily for her opinion, or Shylily asked Nano if there was more to see. There was no backing out now. She had to go along with the events that came next, and carefully maneuvered her way to the best possible outcome for herself. Nothing from Nano’s dms could be made public without her cooperation, and her cooperation wouldn’t make sense if she wasn’t also a victim. Shylily, in lying to Nano, inadvertently gave her the excuse and support she needed to blame all of her actions on Red and I without ever having to show for it. Nano leaking messages, hiding the truth, and going along with the plan to post her document was about self serving, self preservation in the eyes of Shylily, my friends, and the public, at the expense of people who supported her for years.

——————————

Who wrote Nano’s document? Speculation

I do not believe Nano wrote her own document, and whoever did manipulated the information Nano had and maliciously wrote about me. Nano then presented it to the public and the real author kept their hands clean from any direct involvement.

Nano’s document states itself that she did not write it or put it together. This is further evidenced by the fact Nano’s dms are typed completely differently to how her document was written.

Her document starts with Bao’s involvement, not about herself, and not about what chronologically happened first. Nano is on record saying she didn’t care about Bao.

The message from Red about Cotton “hurting one of our friends” was cut out of the screenshot in Nano’s document. Nano would have no reason to do this, and she’s on record saying she didn’t care about Cotton. Nano had no prior relationship with our friend who was hurt either.

The way Nano’s document claimed she felt about Red asking about her plans and gossiping with her contradicts years of her own behavior. Issues with situations over the past couple years claimed in her document weren’t a problem to her when they happened.

Nano would’ve known exactly how the events presented played out and the full context behind them. She lied about them, and someone who was just using Nano’s messages helped her do it. They didn’t care about the validity of the claims being made, only that they supported the greater narrative, purposely leaving out critical context and distorting the order of events.

Only one screenshot of messages about Spite was included. Nano’s document never mentioned Red asking her not to work with Spite, even though that seemingly would’ve helped her argument. The person who wrote it didn’t know about it ever happening. However, I believe this wasn’t included on purpose.

Nano’s document repeatedly uses the “&” symbol throughout it. Not just in section titles, but in the written text too, twenty five times. Not once in the years of working together has she ever used this symbol in either of our messages with her, and in my experience anywhere else, it’s not commonly used.

A dozen people, including Nano, Shylily, and Bao, were involved in the planning of these documents. Bao’s document doesn’t contain any use of “&”, and I believe Bao wrote her document herself. However, Shylily’s reply to my apology tweet used “&” a total of fifteen times in its writing.

Did Shylily write Nano’s document?

Shylily was already giving me multiple signs that she had a problem with me before any of this happened, even saying on stream she always had a bad feeling about me.

Shylily was involved from the very start, being the first person Nano told about Red’s messages.

Shylily was more than willing to lie about me herself, as you will see below.

Shylily was the one who reached out to Bao for Nano, and most likely was the one to do the same with Cotton, Silvervale, and Spite.

Nano’s document starts with what happened with Bao, which would make sense if Shylily wrote it instead of Nano.

The message about Cotton hurting a friend of ours is edited out of the screenshot of Red’s dms. Shylily is also close friends with that person and may have done this to keep them out of things.

A link to the exact timestamp of one of my two raids into Shylily’s stream that Red told Nano about just so happened to be included in her document in Shylily’s defense, but not the incriminating one.

Nano’s document claimed manipulation when there wasn’t any. Shylily was the one who told Nano she was being manipulated, and she was the only other person involved who pushed that claim to the public. Shylily started her reply to my apology with it, discrediting anything I said.

“The absolute audacity to sit here & continue to manipulate & gaslight is absolute insanity.”

My use of “It’s just business” was dishonestly portrayed in Nano’s document. Shylily used the phrase in her reply to me, was the only person who lied about the meaning behind it to the public, and made it into a meme at my expense.

Nano’s document says my friends “platformed” me when talking about competition. That is very specific wording. Shylily said something very similar in her reply to my apology. She also said very similar things on her stream.

Nano’s document:

“The “competition” they’re referring to are people I thought they considered friends, who always helped, supported, and platformed Sinder.”

Shylily’s reply:

“Everything you do is out of competition through your constant need to one-up the people who are the sole reason you even have these opportunities & platforms to earn from to begin with.”

Shylily’s stream:

These two quotes from Nano’s document are also very similar to what Shylily said on her stream. Both were claiming manipulation, and Shylily specifically used the word “problematic” when describing someone Nano wouldn’t want to work with.

Nano’s document:

“…spreading rumors and lies to make other clients appear problematic to manipulate any future decisions regarding commissions.”

Shylily’s stream:

“It was about me being slandered, throwing all kinds of accusations around to Nano, making me seem problematic, weird, making me sound like a person someone wouldn’t want to work with”

Shylily implied she was directly involved in making the documents on her stream.

“I don’t know where I was, but let me just say in this section that she dedicated to Cotton and me, she said “Sorry for not having any knowledge of this.” And that’s where I kind of got mad because like I said, a lot of the stuff that we posted about is only stuff we have hardcoded receipts for. Obviously, there is lots of experience that doesn’t exist on paper. It’s only private experience. But there is also more receipts, verifiable receipts that weren’t added to the doc because either they are smaller things that just only really become a problem when added up, or they were a little too private to be shared. They contain information that people just don’t want to publicly have there, but it is kind of important for context, you know. So you pick and choose what you want to have up there.”

And most importantly, Nano’s document is filled with the use of “&” in its writing, just like, and only like, Shylily’s own reply to me.

It’s fairly obvious to me that Nano conspired with Shylily to write her document for her. Even if Nano lied to Shylily from the start, Shylily still helped Nano lie. Besides presenting everything in such a convoluted order, there were doctored screenshots in her document like I showed above. The same screenshots in Bao’s document being uncropped and unedited shows that Bao was being honest with the information she was given, but Nano and Shylily weren’t.

Being the person who presumably wrote Nano’s document, Shylily, and Nano, would’ve known exactly what I meant by “it’s just business.” But she was the one who lied the most about it, in Nano’s document, in her reply to me, and on her stream. Interesting how she was able to connect my messages from that same conversation with Nano to how I must’ve known about what Red said in his dms with her two years later, but somehow not the fact that my use of the phrase and its meaning came directly from what he said the day before.

11/25/2023

11/26/2023

——————————

Breaking Down Bao’s Document

Originally I had gone through Bao’s entire document pointing out the lies within it. But I no longer believe she and my other friends were lying. They were misinformed, and were speaking from what they thought was true. Nano and Shylily lied to and manipulated them all to see the story their way. Bao was understandably hurt when she found out about what happened, and wasn’t in a sound state of mind after her surgery. I’ll only be going over parts of Bao’s document with the context that she may not have had the full story from Nano, or our side of the story, and pointing out her assumptions that weren’t true.

Just like in Nano’s document, Bao’s document presents things as if her model was only canceled once in August 2024, even though Nano canceled it a second time in her deal with Red in January 2025. I will address this down below.

Bao’s document for reference: I was hurt personally and professional by Sinder and her manager

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 1:48 AM EST

https://x.com/baovtuber/status/1916006443242639566

Just like Nano’s document, this was an assumption that they corroborated with each other, and Bao refers to Red’s actions as both of ours in her document. This wasn’t true and no one could definitively say that in every single instance Red was just a surrogate for my thoughts and feelings. Red is an individual who can think and feel for himself. Bao shows zero screenshots of my own dms in her document.

One of the only times Bao had firsthand experience of the way Red and I worked together was with the She Wolf cover song. Bao messaged Red, not me, and Red didn’t tell me all of the information when he asked me about it, or in the three days before Bao messaged me directly. Her own experience with us should’ve cast doubt on this claim.

As I will show, Bao is clearly talking about her model being canceled in August of 2024 here.

“After she finished both the design and base model sketch, there was suddenly back and forth on whether or not she had the physical and mental capacity to continue my model.”

Nano told Red herself that Bao’s model hadn’t been started yet.

Two weeks before canceling Bao’s model, Nano told him she wanted to cancel models, asking him about canceling on Bao specifically, and telling him she wasn’t the only one she was considering canceling. Bao saying there was a “back and forth” could imply that Nano approached her before August 5th, when Red messaged Nano again, already saying she may not continue her model.

“In a private group chat that Sinder was a part of, I shared how devastated I was and she did not comment or say anything despite others in the group chat comforting and reassuring me.”

This was Bao’s message she sent to our group chat when her model was canceled on August 6th 2024, which she also included in her tweet replying to my apology. I knew about this before Bao did. I felt guilty about it and didn’t know what to say, so I didn’t say anything. I should’ve been a better friend and at least tried talking to Nano for her, but I didn’t. If this was Nano’s decision like I was told, then I wasn’t going to get involved.

This claim is false. Bao would only have said this if Nano told her this was what was happening. Bao had reason to believe it too, with Nano telling her that her model was one of the ongoing commissions affected.

Right after talking all about August 2024, when her model was canceled the first time, Bao presents screenshots from January 15th 2025, over five months later, to explain why her model was canceled in August. It is out of order and missing context as well.

The screenshots Bao shows of Nano’s dms with Red are the same ones Nano uses in her document, including the timezone discrepancies I discussed. I will include the date and time of them in EST like I did before, and as shown in the full context of these conversations in Nano’s section of this document.

Screenshot from 1/15/2025 at 7:00 PM - 7:05 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

Like was shown above, Nano’s messages calling the deal fair and asking for a demon figure were cut from this exact same screenshot in Nano’s document, but are present in Bao’s document. Here’s what it looks like in Nano’s document:

Screenshot from 1/15/2025 at 6:29 PM - 6:34 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

As I pointed out before, Bao’s document shows the message about Cotton above, unlike Nano’s. And just like in Nano’s document, the following messages from Nano are missing entirely. This wasn’t Bao’s fault they were missing, it’s all Nano gave her.

Screenshot from 1/15/2025 at 6:52 PM - 6:54 PM EST, shown as two hours ahead of EST

And again, the messages from Nano right after this are missing too.

“Nanoless asks Redacted on why he is encouraging her to not finish my model.”

This statement is false, and it’s not what happened, but Bao may have been told this was the case. This list above was how Red felt about Bao, and his reasoning as to why he wanted to exclude her from working with Nano in his exclusivity deal in January 2025. But Bao, who only had the context Nano shared with her, applied these reasons to her model being canceled in August 2024 to explain why “Red manipulated Nano to cancel it then.”

While Red was looking to prevent Bao from working with Nano, which was wrong, he didn’t even know Bao had a model planned with her again. When Nano told him about it, he backed off, followed by Nano asking if he was sure and for him to explain why to her.

“This is what Redacted lists as reasons why Nanoless should cancel her ongoing Live2D commission with me…”

Bao’s model was canceled in August 2024 after Nano told Red Bao’s model wasn’t started.

And just like I showed before, Nano said here that she had Bao on her commission list, as in, not ongoing. I do not believe Nano would cancel a project if she had any significant amount of work invested into it already.

“Friends do not sabotage other friends out of business opportunities. Friends do not spread lies to fuel selfish narratives. Friends do not use the private information they get from the privilege of being close friends just to use it to manipulate others.”

I’ve never done any of these things. My friends both knowingly and unknowingly sabotaged me out of innumerable business opportunities when they chose to make this public. Nanoless and Shylily spread lies about me to fuel their own selfish narratives to my friends and to the public. Nano used the private information Nano had in her messages with Red that she had from being close friends with him to use it to manipulate my friends and the public.

Bao’s model wasn’t sabotaged by Red when it was originally canceled in 2024, he didn’t lie about anything he genuinely believed about her, and none of the five reasons Bao listed above, or anything else Red said to Nano about Bao, were private information or things he knew from the privilege of either of us being friends with her.

After showing screenshots from January 2025, the next screenshot she presents is from August 2024 where she states it’s another screenshot of Red urging Nano to cancel her model, as if from the same situation.

Screenshot is from 8/5/2024 at 3:13 PM EST, shown as one hour ahead of EST

These are all Red’s messages, not from “them” like Bao says. Nano wanted to cancel Bao’s model and Red reassured her about it. Red said “I remember her showing it to us at Weebcon”, without ever “mentioning how excited (Bao) was about it when (she) showed (us) the design.”

In Nano’s section, Red explained that he thought Nano should still be paid for the design work she did for Bao. The possibility of her “starting shit” was based on his own opinion of how she could react to the bad news from Nano. This screenshot of their dms shown in Bao’s document was not included in Nano’s document.

We were completely unaware Bao encouraged our video editor to take our exclusivity offer. This call apparently happened over a month before I was canceled, over a month after Nano canceled the deal with Red, and over two months since they first made it. Our video editor never told Red or I about this. The few times they asked for raises while working with me, I was more than happy to accommodate them every single time.

Red pieced together the narrative he convinced himself of and told Nano, as was laid out in Bao’s section. Bao was the one who spoke ill of her own songs’ performance in her public Discord server last year, and Red decided it was a contributing factor in what happened. It had nothing to do with the TMJ she’s talking about, but I can see why she’d think it was. Her “most vulnerable moments” were not used against her.

“If you look at the timeline of events from Nano’s document…”

I don’t know how anyone can understand the timeline of events from Nano’s document when everything was presented out of order and out of context.

“…some of those messages date back years. I found out about this less than 48 hours ago, and they did not give me common courtesy of talking to me privately about this over those years.”

This was not over years. The only times Nano and Red had meaningful conversations about Bao was at the end of July and early August 2024, and in January 2025. From the time Bao’s document was written, the oldest of these messages would’ve been about 9 months old. The problem Red had with Bao was only in December 2024, about 4 and a half months before her document was posted. Either one of us should’ve talked to Bao when we had the chance, and we didn’t.

“My thoughts, feelings, my most vulnerable, darkest moments, that I shared in confidence… may have been used as information to ruin my chances to have the same vtuber model as someone I thought was my friend…”

None of the reasons Bao listed above, or anything else Red said to Nano about Bao, was private information, things she shared in confidence, or had anything to do with her “most vulnerable, darkest moments.”

——————————

Bao’s Stream on 4/27/2025:

Bao streamed the night after posting her tweet in response to my apology. Just like her document, I won’t be going over everything Bao said on her stream, and many of the things she said were because she was convinced it was the truth. I’m choosing to believe she wasn’t lying, but she was wrong.

4/27/2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ggvd2hB-Etk&ab_channel=BaoTheWhaleVODs

9:56 - 10:56 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=596

“Well, I don’t know. I can’t even remember what the conversation was like, because I was just in such a state of- it was like I’m hearing what Lily and Nano are telling me, but it’s like I cannot compute it… I just kind of remember seeing the screenshots…”

How much did Nano tell Bao, and how much did Shylily say for her? The screenshots Bao saw couldn’t have been more than what Shylily saw. I believe Nano hid the full context of them from the start.

17:16 - 20:16 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=1036

“In every scenario I tried to wrap my head around what I would have done if I was in their shoes. I just, I can’t, I couldn’t understand it. We have been through so much offline and online and there is nothing more confusing and more painful than seeing someone in your friend group be so kind and so warm to everyone around you and feeling that they have slowly become colder and colder towards you and not knowing what you did or if it’s your imagination. But because everyone loves them, you don’t know if you want to say anything. And so you keep it to yourself and you keep hoping it’s your imagination. But then the cruel realization hits that it wasn’t, and it’s even worse than you could have ever imagined. And you wonder why all those times where they talked over you or ignored you if you had done something wrong. And I just kept asking myself out of everyone in our friend group, why was it me? And like, what did I do differently? And for so long, I was jealous of how warm they treated my friends. And I wondered why it just felt so different towards me. Reading everything confirming my worst fears was awful.

Bao couldn’t understand what happened because she didn’t have the full context, or ever know the motivations and reasoning behind it that was explained in her section. Red and I never talked to her when we should’ve, and I’m sorry to Bao for that.

23:59 - 26:35 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=1439

“Everyone knows how special a vtuber’s debut is. That is kind of the most important day of a vtuber’s career, and all of the preparation and foresight needed to make it happen. No one tells you how stressful the project management is. No one tells you how to run a commission, all of the assets, all of the coordination with merch shops to have everything come out on the dot. Making sure that at the same time you’re planning everything, you are having to advertise it. You know, you look at a content creator online and even though you are seeing one person on the screen, behind that one person is a really big team that they have to coordinate with. And that takes a lot of time. And if you are a vtuber and you have models and live 2D artists to work with, you know that they’re booked out sometimes years in advance. And to have a sudden cancellation like that happen so suddenly right in the middle of everything happening is, it’s so, I can’t even begin to tell you like how hard it is to pivot and to restructure how the rest of the next month or couple of months is going to go in order to fill up that space. Some vtubers planned this out years in advance. I’m not even joking. So to say I was devastated when my model was canceled is kind of an understatement.

I completely sympathize with what Bao said here, which is part of the reason why Nano was so important to Red and I as my model artist.

26:35 - 28:12 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=1595

“I sat on that design for so long. And I was so heartbroken that I just deleted the tweet where I teased it. I just, I couldn’t even look at it anymore. I don’t know. Maybe it’s stupid, but if you’re a vtuber, your model is what represents you and you really do have to fall in love with it because it’s an extension of yourself. And so, I had that model as my subathon goal, one of my top subathon goals for a while. And you know, I showed it to everybody around me. I’m very used to very cute, dainty designs and I wanted to see what it would feel like to have a sexier model. And ever since that happened, I thought about getting a different artist and keeping the design, but it felt like it wasn’t the same. And I didn’t want an artist to just draw over the design. So I shelved it, and I hoped that maybe one day Nano would be free enough to take my commission. I told her that even if it was years from now, I would love to revisit the commission.”

Bao said here that her model with Nano was shelved, and implied that it wasn’t ever rescheduled again.

29:28 - 30:25 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=1768

“There’s so many ways to be competitive and still not hurt other people in the process. And, I don’t know, I feel like even when she was so much smaller than me and was just starting out, I still remember showing up calling her during a random stream and just making a little bit out of it. And like for, I think I speak for all of my friends, but we wouldn’t be where we are if it weren’t for each other. And I have always felt that way, that every success that each of us has is everyone’s success.”

I was never competitive towards Bao in the same way I felt I was towards Silvervale. I agree with everything Bao said here, and I’ll always be grateful to her and my friends for what they did for me, and proud of what I was able to do for them too.

31:56 - 33:02 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=1916

“Like, and that’s the most fucked up part about it is like the whole time I was like what did I do? Like what did I do? And like why was I even considered a threat at all? I felt like she was so much more successful and I felt like she had everything that I could ever dream of and like there was no need to kick the ladder down. There was no need.”

If Bao, or any of my friends, had come to us before making things public, they would’ve found out the motivations behind what Red did. Bao was never considered a threat. Someone put that idea into her head, because it’s not something ever said in Red’s messages.

33:14 - 33:52 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=1994

“How could you accuse me of being a thief when I spent five hours talking to our editor, telling him and assuring him that I would never stop being his friend, even if he took an exclusivity deal with you. And it would mean I would only have two editors for my channel. And like that still did not stop me from considering your financial well being and the success and growth of your channel. And they could not even spare the same thought for me.”

Like I explained when going over Bao’s document, our editor never told Red or I about this conversation with Bao. We had no idea it ever happened. Red was the one who had a problem with our editor working with Bao, and only after December 2024. Before that, it wasn’t a problem for either of us, except initially like I explained in Bao’s section. Red’s conversation with Nano about it was in January 2025, two months before Bao’s conversation with our editor.

35:19 - 36:37 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=2119

“Like you do not know how many times I was told to put in my Google doc the fact that you had a significant other. And no matter how many people told me to put it in, and how stupid I would be to not put it in, I could not bring myself to put it in because I knew what that would do to your reputation. And you could not spare that same thought for me. It would have been so easy for me to prove that you had seen the messages, but I couldn’t do it because in the end I still wouldn’t do that to you. And so I wonder why you would do that to me.”

I appreciate Bao not putting my relationship in her document while under the pressure from Shylily and our other friends to do so, but I would never do that to anyone, like she claimed I would. Red and I being in a relationship doesn’t prove that I had seen all of his messages. My friends had no way of knowing that or not just because we were together. However, if Nano lied about the alleged “years of manipulation and abuse she suffered” with us, then I can see why my friends wouldn’t believe I didn’t know about about any of the things I actually didn’t. But the story Nano told them isn’t true.

37:29 - 39:04 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=2249

“So I looked at, when I read your apology, I was just looking for some semblance of I just wanted to know if you would know what to say. I just wanted to know if you ever had thought of me as a close friend or if it was just one sided or not. And I felt like I still didn’t know by the end of reading your apology. And that really fucking sucks. And now I just don’t know what to think or what to believe and how easily I could have turned this into a personal vendetta. But I kept it strictly about the people and the clients that were affected and how their careers were put on pause because suddenly a month long project was put on hold, and to pivot so suddenly, especially when so many vtuber debuts are tied around a holiday or a birthday, on dates that cannot be changed.”

When I wrote my apology, I was blindsided by what Red did and said about her to Nano behind my back, and everyone thought it was my fault. I couldn’t accurately explain everything that happened between Red and I over Bao with the pressure I was under, but I also felt I couldn’t own up to the way I treated Bao and the role I played in making her feel the way she did without that context. I didn’t know what to do, or what to say, or how to say it, so I said the bare minimum. Bao deserved better at the time, and I hope I can make it right now.

Bao mentions that she kept her document about the people and clients that were affected. Was she talking about these clients? Bao wouldn't have known what really happened to their projects, but Nano did.

39:53 - 40:34 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=2393

“Numi forgave you when you didn't come to her concert that you were planning with her for over half a year. I wonder if you knew how devastated she was and how in the middle of the year when I was so depressed and there were some days where I could not even bring myself to leave my bed, I still managed to fly six hours to New York to be there for her.”

Bao saying I “didn’t come to (Numi’s) concert that (I was) planning with her for over half a year” was the only thing she “lied” about on her stream. I’m choosing to believe this was just a mistake in the heat of the moment and not a deliberate lie. There is a portion of this section below talking about Numi’s concert where I’ll talk about this again.

40:52 - 42:27 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=2452

“I feel like at every single, at every single pivotal moment where you had the choice to be a good person and a good friend, you chose not to be. And no matter how many times me and our friends try to wrap our heads around it and try to make sense of it, we can’t. We can’t because every single time, we come to the realization that that’s not what we would do if we cared. At some point, what are you even trying to one up?”

The only pivotal moments I can assume Bao was talking about here was with Numi’s concert, that she just spoke about, and possibly when I didn’t say anything after her model was canceled in August. Bao and the rest of my friends didn’t understand because they didn’t have the full story. I was never trying to one up any of my friends, including Bao.

45:34 - 48:09 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=2734

“And even then, you’re bound to get jealous as a content creator. But what you choose to do with that jealousy is what defines your character. You can either let it make you spiteful or you can fuel it to forge your own success. Because when you’re a streamer, yeah, you can share audiences with people, but at the end of the day, you are building your own community. You shouldn’t focus on trying to take what other people have because that’s not how you get it. That’s what they made for themselves… I felt like from my point of view they were so much more further ahead than me, than I could even imagine. And I (got) kicked down a ladder that I feel like I initially gave you. None of us would be where we are without each other.”

Jealousy didn’t fuel anything Red or I did. Someone else was telling Bao that was the case. None of the evidence shows I, or Red, ever being jealous of anyone, because we weren’t. I don’t know what Bao is talking about when she implies I was taking other people’s communities for myself, and I didn’t kick down the ladder on her. In January, Red made a mistake that I didn’t know about to stop it from happening.

I agree, Bao was someone who was kind to a vtuber much smaller than her. Someone she had no obligation to show any kindness to. But she did, and so did the rest of my friends, and I’ll always be thankful to them for it and everything they’ve done for me.

50:50 - 50:55 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=3050

“You could not have had this go on for so long and not know about it.”

“This” wasn’t going on, and not for as long as my friends were misled to believe by Nano. Any of the problems Red had with Bao only started in December 2024. If I were them, I can understand why it’d be unbelievable too.

52:37 - 54:13 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=3157

“I feel like I was tasked with an impossible choice. And I hate it, but I had to be in the position where it had to be me to say something or no one else would. And it’s not about whether or not I am right or wrong, but it’s the fact that I didn’t even want to be in this position to begin with. And I know that for so many people to be affected that it was the right decision to do. But it really fucking sucks that I had to do it in the first place. And I feel like I’ve been given that impossible task so many times already in my career. If I don’t say something, then no one else will. And if I had a choice to not do it, then I would take it. But I know that would be the wrong choice.”

Just like Buff said, Bao had an impossible choice given to her by everyone involved:

I believe Bao made the best choice with the information she had, the state of mind she was in, and for all of the people she was thinking about when making it. I forgive her for what she chose to do.

What I don’t understand is why the choice to make anything public was left up to Bao? Why didn’t they look to Nano to say something when all of the “evidence” was from her dms? Why was it Bao’s responsibility to say something “or no one else would?” Why would they put that pressure on her in the state she was in?

Speculation

Nano could’ve said she wouldn’t make anything public without Bao. Nano knew her story was a lie all along. It couldn’t stand on its own, so she wasn’t going to say anything unless it was backed up by Bao.

55:01 - 55:23 https://youtu.be/Ggvd2hB-Etk?t=3301

“I just wish my apology had any semblance of evidence that you even knew me as a person, and not just someone that you had to surpass. And when I read it, I felt like you didn’t.”

Bao was never someone I felt I needed to surpass. Someone else must’ve convinced her that was the case.

I cared about Bao, but Bao was my friend that I wasn’t treating like my friend for too long. I’m sorry I wasn’t a better one to her when I needed to be.

——————————

Why did Shylily have to contact Bao for Nano? Speculation

Shylily encouraged Nano to bring her dms to the people affected, including Bao, but Shylily was the one who ended up reaching out to Bao. Why?

I don’t think Nano could confront Bao herself. Nano only showed Shylily the select screenshots of what happened in her dms with Red over Bao’s model, not the full context. The difference was that Shylily was already on her side after she told Nano she was being manipulated. If Nano went to Bao alone, Bao wouldn’t have any of that preestablished context, meaning Nano would’ve had to explain what happened to her model by itself. Bao would’ve obviously wanted to see all of the messages of it happening, and Nano would’ve incriminated herself.

But if Shylily was the one to contact Bao for her, Shylily could explain Red’s “manipulation” in the messages about herself first. Then Nano wouldn’t need to show the full context of the messages about Bao and her model because Shylily was vouching for her. She just had to nod along. Bao wouldn’t have doubted Shylily’s word.

——————————

Was Bao’s model really canceled a second time? Speculation

Throughout this document I’ve been writing under the assumption that Bao’s model with Nano was canceled twice. First in August of 2024, and second in January 2025.

Nano told Red in January that Bao’s model was on her commission list, and went as far as to offer to cancel it a second time herself, eventually agreeing to do so in their deal:

But Nano’s document, which Shylily presumably wrote for her with the information Nano gave her, and Bao’s document, never mentioned her model ever being canceled another time after August 2024. She said on stream that after her model was canceled the first time it was shelved:

“So I shelved it, and I hoped that maybe one day Nano would be free enough to take my commission. I told her that even if it was years from now, I would love to revisit the commission.”

Unless Bao was lying, I don’t believe her model was ever officially rescheduled with Nano after August 2024, meaning it couldn’t have been canceled a second time.

What I think happened is that when Bao’s model was canceled and she told Nano the above, Nano kept Bao’s model on her commission list in something like an indefinite waitlist section unbeknownst to Bao. When Red approached Nano about their exclusivity deal and brought up Bao’s name, Nano said it was “on her list”, not telling him the context of it being there. After encouraging Red to explain his reasoning to her, she offered to “cancel” Bao’s model forever in exchange for us paying for her own model’s rigging which she’d discount from our next commission with her.

Why would Nano have been so quick to offer to cancel Bao’s model a second time when she didn’t have the courage to do it the first time in August 2024?

Because Nano didn’t have to cancel it this time. She never had to confront Bao because the model was never rescheduled. Nano knew she wasn’t accountable for Bao’s model when she made Red her offer, but Red didn’t know that. She used it to negotiate with Red to get what she wanted at Bao’s expense, offering to cancel it for basically nothing. In making this deal, she just had to forever kick the model down the road, never making time for it, while Bao would forever cling onto hope that she would.

Out of the messages I showed above, these were the only ones present in Nano’s document.

Nano never showed Bao, Shylily, and my friends the messages where she and Red were talking about Bao’s model in January. She never showed when it was first brought up, when Nano offered to cancel it, or when they made their agreement. Nano lied to my friends and told them she never made a deal with Red, like it said in Nano’s document, and they believed her. She never showed them it happening, and nothing happened to prove it did other than Nano’s rigging getting paid for, including Bao’s model never actually getting canceled a second time. No matter what Red said to Nano in that conversation, no one that was named in their agreed upon deal suffered any losses due to it before it was canceled.

——————————

Did Nano even want to make Bao’s model? Speculation

In November of 2023, Nano was excited to do Bao’s model, before there was a design for it. All that was known was that it’d be a “mommy” model and it was planned for June 2024.

Bao showed Red and I the finished design for this model at Weebcon in March of 2024.

Bao’s model was planned for June 2024, but by the end of July, it hadn’t even been started. Nano told Red she was considering canceling her model, and he encouraged her to do what she thought was best for her.

Nano canceled Bao’s model at the start of August 2024.

Bao said on her stream on 4/27/2025 that her model was shelved after it was canceled.

“So I shelved it, and I hoped that maybe one day Nano would be free enough to take my commission. I told her that even if it was years from now, I would love to revisit the commission.”

When negotiating a deal with Red in January 2025, Nano offered to cancel Bao’s model forever in exchange for paying for her model’s rigging that she’d discount from our next commission. Essentially canceling it for nothing. When she canceled her deal with him about a month later because she wanted to work with Silvervale, she told Red she didn’t care about Bao.

Nano was excited to work with Bao in November 2023, but after the design was made, she didn’t want to make the actual model for it. I’m not going to say what that design was out of respect for Bao’s plans, but it’s plausible that it could’ve been a factor. Nano canceled the model once, and without having to deal with the guilt of canceling it a second time, offered to “cancel” it forever for her own benefit. Red coming to her in January was just an outside excuse for her to never have to actually do it, while getting something she wanted out of it at the same time.

It doesn’t sound like Nano wanted to make Bao’s model, no matter when or if she ever made time for it.

Do you know what Nano specifically said she did want to work on?

——————————

Shylily’s Response to my Apology

Shylily’s reply to my apology is what canceled me. With over 8 million views, it’s full of false accusations made without showing any evidence, and triggering language to turn people against me, painting me in as bad of a light as possible, the same way Nano’s document was written. I’m willing to bet that most people just read Shylily’s reply and nothing else. It’s much easier to only read this than read my whole apology, and who wouldn’t trust Shylily?

Shylily’s reply to my apology for reference:

https://x.com/shylilytwitch/status/1916623888433463331

Posted after my apology on 4/27/2025 at 6:41 PM EST

“The absolute audacity to sit here & continue to manipulate & gaslight is absolute insanity.”

The first thing Shylily did was completely discredit anything I said in my apology as unbelievable, claiming it was all manipulation and gaslighting. No one was going to question her, she’s Shylily. Shylily was involved in everything from the start, convinced Nano she was being manipulated, organized my friends against me, and evidently wrote Nano’s document for her.

“The pain & mental torment you've caused to the ones closest & most supportive of you has been devastating & I have never been so heart broken & hurt so badly for my friends…”

Yes, I hurt Numi when I chose business over her concert, and I apologized, but I was still there at the show for her. I was a terrible friend to Bao and should’ve talked to her instead of ignoring the problem with Red. I selfishly left Tricky behind in Japan when I wanted to make the most of my time there. I’m not innocent of ever hurting my friends.

“You are the fakest person I've ever had the displeasure of supporting! Reading (& hearing) of how you've really viewed me behind my back, not just through screenshots of your Man but also your very OWN messages while having to sit here & read through these bullshit lies you spin makes me want to vomit.”

The only message I ever sent to anyone about how I “viewed (Shylily) behind (her) back” was about how I looked up to her as a role model, and that once I became a part owner of Gamer Supps I felt pressured, by no one other than myself, to live up to the bar she set. This was what I said to Numi when apologizing to her about her concert, and wasn’t a situation that was brought up by anyone before Shylily’s reply to my already posted apology.

Red said he thought we’d have to start considering her competition if she was going to treat me differently for seemingly no reason, and was now working with our most valued artist. I didn’t feel that way, and those weren’t my words.

“To claim that you didn't know a SINGLE THING & had zero awareness of what your Man was up to when everyone who's shared even a single moment with you knows that you basically operate as the same person, sharing every waking moment…”

I didn’t say I didn’t know a “SINGLE THING” Red ever did. I didn’t know about the specifics of what happened in Red’s conversations with Nano and the other few instances shown in this document. He summarized things to me, but didn’t tell me everything, and lied to me about their exclusivity deal. I didn’t read his messages myself, and I didn’t question what he told me because I trusted him. The only thing I lied about not knowing was about Red talking to Nano about Spite, and that was to not make the situation worse for myself. Shylily and my friends who corroborated that we operate as the same person did not have any idea how Red and I worked together at home, or even the fact we lived together. The same way they didn’t ever see us argue, or knew that I cheated on him in the past. Them blaming everything on me only works if it’s to be believed we share every message, thought, and feeling, and before they’re acted upon.

“...while loving to jump at the slightest opportunity to turn into your most slanderous self as soon as the opportunity was given, even when talking about your friends is sickening.”

I don’t know what Shylily thinks she’s referring to. I’ve never slandered any of my friends. What Red said in his own messages to Nano about Bao were his own opinions. As explained, Red didn’t maliciously lie about anyone like Shylily did about me, and only said what he believed was true from his own experience. Red is his own person with his own thoughts, feelings, opinions, and experiences, but his own personal involvement in what happened was intentionally ignored to pin all the blame on me.

“I have experienced your own actions without Red, in a situation where in your own screenshotted words, you express a "pressure to live up to what Lily is", and proceeded to throw one of your most loyal & supportive friends under the bus after months of continuous planning just because you consistently chose business over friends, never feeling bad for failing them.”

Shylily brings up what happened with Numi’s concert, something I had no idea I was expected to address since it was already settled between us and wasn’t related to any of the accusations made against me. I’m going to break this part down in pieces.

“I have experienced your own actions without Red, in a situation where in your own screenshotted words, you express a "pressure to live up to what Lily is…"

Shylily did not experience this. This was in a private conversation between Numi and I. She said this was “in (my) own screenshotted words”, but there were never any screenshots of any of this situation made public, but she chose to address it publicly.

“…and proceeded to throw one of your most loyal & supportive friends under the bus after months of continuous planning…”

I did not proceed to throw Numi under the bus. I said this while I was apologizing to her for the decision I made, ending with me trying to make my mistakes right by facing my fears and getting on stage, or rescheduling the collab I had with Shylily to be at her concert sooner. I did make it to her concert and I was there to support her.

Shylily says “months of continuous planning”, but the first message of Numi trying to plan anything with me was to Red, 2 and a half weeks before I decided not to perform, and 5 weeks before the show itself. There was nothing planned beyond me being on stage because of my own hesitancy, not even having songs picked out. Bao also said this was being planned for “over half a year”, which may be true for the concert itself, but not me being involved.

“…just because you consistently chose business over friends, never feeling bad for failing them.”

I did choose business over a friend when it was between VCard after my promotion to part owner and making it to Numi’s concert, but I did feel bad about my decisions before I had even heard from Numi. My tweet is evidence of that. I was wrong and I apologized to her. I was still at her show supporting her. Me canceling my performance had nothing to do with business and everything to do with my own fears and insecurities.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1884522621489869162

“Just to earn the bag & compete with me over a VCard collab that YOU rescheduled to be on the exact date your friend needed you to keep an important promise.”

Our collab had nothing to do with “earning the bag.” I had already earned plenty the day before on the actual launch day. It was about being responsible as a new part owner of the brand and representing them during a very important launch weekend alongside Shylily. If I wanted to compete with Shylily then I wouldn’t have asked to collab. Why would I have wanted to share the screen with her in that case? I wanted to collab to work together so her card game was as big of a success as we could make it for the entire company. I rescheduled our collab on that day oblivious to my friend’s event in my blind excitement for VCard, as I explained before. It was a mistake, and I made another mistake choosing it over going to the concert. But the collab was rescheduled after I had already pulled out of the performance. I agreed to be in the show, but I never made a promise to Numi I would perform, or that I would be there, and Numi even told Red it was okay if I didn’t do either.

But, it sounds a lot worse on me for Shylily to claim that I did break a promise to a friend for money. Agreeing to do something and making a promise to a friend have very different connotations, especially when making claims to the public without any evidence.

“You actively lied about it to them, instead blaming ME for a collab YOU rescheduled, adding me to the pool of excuses to save your ass, when you realized you were being a bad friend. Why blame me for choosing to miss an obligation YOU agreed to. On one of the most important days in that friend's career?”

Shylily said I blamed her for missing an obligation I agreed to. No. What I agreed to was to perform, and I didn’t perform because of my own reasons. Not going to the concert is what she’s talking about, which by Numi’s own words I wasn’t obligated to go to. I didn’t lie to Numi, and I didn’t blame Shylily, and the fact she thinks I did points out the importance she gives herself when it wasn’t about her. She made my apology to Numi about her when it wasn’t. I took accountability for what I did and apologized to my friend, and still made it to her show after our collab.

When I made the decision not to go to Numi’s concert, I told her I felt obligated to be around for VCard’s launch weekend as a partial Gamer Supps owner now. My collab with Shylily was planned for that day, but even if that wasn’t happening, my choice would’ve likely been the same.

When I apologized to her, I told her I felt pressured to live up to what Shylily is for Gamer Supps and the vtuber community now that I had the same position. I wasn’t blaming Shylily, it was about my new position as part owner. Shylily was the only example to follow in the footsteps of, and she set the bar I felt I needed to hold myself to for the company.

I then told Numi that” I made plans to collab with Shylily the day after VCard’s launch day”, and that “I planned it as early in the day as possible” to make it to her show. I should’ve been more clear when I said that “I didn’t really know how to tell (Shylily) no”, as I explained in the VCard section of this document. This was not at all me blaming Shylily for the collab I planned with her, or that it was the main reason I made the choice I did.

I said “I shouldn’t have thought to put a product launch over my friend’s once in a lifetime event”, because my decision wasn’t solely about the collab with Shylily, or trying to blame her for it. My decision was because it was VCard’s launch weekend.

“Everything you do is out of competition through your constant need to one-up the people who are the sole reason you even have these opportunities & platforms to earn from to begin with. You're welcome btw…”

I, myself, only viewed one person as competition. It wasn’t Shylily, and it wasn’t any of my friends. And yes, my friends have helped me along the way, some a lot more than others that I should’ve been more grateful towards, and we all grew together. But I don’t owe every single thing I have to them, and I especially don’t owe anything to Shylily. Her saying “you’re welcome btw…” comes off as extremely narcissistic, as if she had any major impact on where I am and what I’ve accomplished, and expects credit for it. Other than the few collabs we had, most of which were on my stream, and a skeb she agreed to let me get, I have no idea what she could be talking about. As far as she’s said, she’s always had a bad feeling about me, making it seem like the few things we did do together, she begrudgingly agreed to in the first place.

“You claim that "it's just business" well, in the business world, there has to be accountability & all you've done is try to shove it away & admit to nothing.”

Shylily purposely misconstrued my “it’s just business” quote into something to attack me with, just like in Nano’s document. In the actual context of the situation where this quote comes from, I meant it to accept whatever decision Nano chose for herself, regardless of how I feel about it, because in the end, “it’s just business.” If you actually read my apology, you’d see that I admitted to more than “nothing” like she claims here. I just didn’t admit to the things I didn’t do.

“In true narcissistic fashion you're only feeling sorry about yourself & your own consequences & your career & try to salvage it.”

Again, if you actually read my apology, you’d see that I apologize and take accountability for the things I did do. Shylily is the only person who made the claim I was narcissistic, and given her actions before and after this, it really seems like projection.

“I'm sorry for everyone who looked up to you as an inspiration and I'm especially sorry for your fans. Pyro Pups deserve better..”

If how Shylily handled everything, and what she did to me, is what’s supposed to be “better” than what I was to the Pyro Pups, then it’s not my community I’d feel sorry for.

——————————

Shylily’s Stream on 4/28/2025:

Shylily didn’t hold back at all on her stream, telling her viewers how she really felt about me. She went full mask off and convinced the public it was completely justified, mockingly saying it’s all “just business.”

If it wasn’t evident by her tweet, you’ll see from her stream that Shylily is not a reliable or trustworthy narrator.

4/28/2025

https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?si=2p3XzYaazbyeVipx

10:22 - 10:48 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=622

“…The business eye should be green with a dollar sign. Yeah, but, or maybe like a little knife. Sorry. This is going to be my way of coping with this. I- You’re going to have to just sit through this. They’re going to have to sit through these very distasteful comments… It’s shrimply business.”

Throughout her stream, Shylily justifies her petty jabs at me as her way of coping. Just like her tweet, she continually makes fun of the phrase “it’s just business.” She was the one who purposely lied about what I meant by it to make it look bad on me.

11:05 - 11:21 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=665

“You don’t have to give me bitties and shmoney to make me feel better - we’re not like that in here! I’m sorry. I’m not sorry, but like, coping okay? Coping.”

Petty.

19:58 - 20:06 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=1198

“I don’t know what you’re talking about. We just- We’re just going to be back on business tonight. It’s just, just business as usual.”

Petty.

22:11 - 22:57 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=1331

“I also just saw someone feeling bad for taking the apology seriously and feeling dumb about it. I’m going to be honest, okay? I’m having a hard time being upset with anyone who still trusts and forgives her because, and I say this in all honesty, the reason it worked for so long is because her words are as sweet as butter. And chances are you’re probably simply just as easily manipulated as everyone else. If you read all of these things and you see nothing wrong with it, give it a few years. Experience will show you what the fuck is behind those messages.”

Shylily continues to discredit anything I said in my apology, manipulating the audience to see things her way. “You’re probably simply just as easily manipulated as everyone else” if you don’t.

24:06 - 24:51 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=1446

“The only night that was difficult was the first night after dropping the first doc. The first Google doccy! Sorry- That was the only tough night. That was the only tough one. It was 10:00AM, I had to go to bed and just being scared of what the heck a literal manipulator could possibly come up with overnight, and what a shit show you could possibly wake up to when they have a platform that they use to manipulate hundreds of thousands of people with.”

Shylily was terrified about how I could manipulate my way out of this, which is why I believe the documents were posted when they were, so I wouldn’t be able to respond.

25:32 - 25:42 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=1532

“It’s literally just hearsay. The entire apology. And worst of all, throughout this whole hearsay, it’s full of bullshit.”

Shylily doesn’t know what hearsay is. One’s personal account is not hearsay. You’ve already seen the “bullshit" put out against me in Nano’s document, and by the end of Shylily’s stream, you’ll see more.

27:45 - 28:05 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=1665

“It’s been a week, hasn’t it? (Laughs) I’m sorry I’m laughing, I’m actually really sad, but it’s just, it’s how I cope. I don’t know what to tell you. I don’t know. I don’t know how to tell you. If you don’t understand, this might sound do fucked up and psychotic, but I just, I just need to laugh. Let me cope.”

Shylily was gleeful over my cancellation.

32:30 - 33:48 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=1950

“I highly suggest you check it out yourself. Everything that is publicly available is through receipts. Needlessly to say, more stuff has happened. Needlessly to say, but most of these things don’t have receipts or the receipts have personal private stuff attached to it that’s just, you just can’t share… Some of the stuff we might talk about today is hearsay because that’s just my own experience that happened in person. It’s my word against whoever else wants to challenge it and that’s okay. But we made sure and we all agree that everything we put online will only be receipts. Only receipts that we have, nothing else. No emotions, no experiences, no hearsay, no nothing. Only receipts. So obviously there’s more. There is more receipts too, but those contain info that’s just, it contains sensitive stuff about others themselves or even the criminal herself.”

If more proof of their claims wasn’t shown due to it containing personal info like Shylily said, I have no idea what it’d be if not what’s already been shown and censored in this document. I didn’t seem to have that problem putting my evidence together. She may be talking about my messages with Numi, and maybe Numi didn’t want that to be made public. Or, Shylily’s giving a bullshit reason why the full context of Nano’s messages weren’t shown, and the evidence she claims to have doesn’t exist. Shylily also calls me a “criminal” in another petty insult.

45:07 - 46:08 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=2707

“God that- Oh when she said that and when she tried to bring me onto- Okay, I know when she said that and she tried to make this thing with me and we were doing a collab and she was just like, “Oh, the Charizard and Blastoise of VCard doing the-” (Gags) Oh, like, how dare you sit there and pretend to be some box legendary of something that you didn’t create. Disgusting. Trust me, we all cringed, but people sometimes get excited and they do cringeworthy stuff.”

There was a lot of animosity behind Shylily’s words here. Why?

47:08 - 47:53 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=2828

“It is typical narcissistic manipulation fashion, like, this whole document, like I said, if you don’t see it that way, I don’t blame you. Chances are you’re too young and naive. You’re just as gullible and easy to manipulate. If you don’t see it, I fully get it. I don’t support it. I hope you’ll eventually see it. But it’s typical. I take accountability for nothing. I shoved the blame over to my man. I knew nothing. Everything was behind my back. I’m sorry you feel this way. Like come on.

Shylily manipulated her audience to her side, basically calling them stupid if they don’t see things her way.

48:01 - 48:29 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=2881

“-companies don’t want to have bad PR? You know, in “it’s just business” fashion, when a company has an employee fuck up, guess what? The company has to take action because of the employee. The company has to pay damages and make amends for the employee. “It’s just business” is what our good ol’ little friend “Snake” would say.”

Petty.

49:00 - 49:12 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=2940

“You burned your Sinder merch? Honestly, if I can’t encourage you, you paid for it, you do what the fuck you want. But if I can encourage you to do something, donate it… Okay but, again, you do what you want to do. If that’s how you cope with this, that’s also okay. But two things. Not to defend anything of what she’s done, but you’re just a viewer. You don’t have to atone for someone’s sins and feel bad about the good times you’ve had. Whether they were fake or not, doesn’t matter. You had a good time. Those are your memories to keep, you know. But, on top of that, again, if you cope by burning your merch, I ain’t judging. You cope the way you want to cope. I cope through memes and making fun of things. That also isn’t fucking perfect. But if you have it in you and you can cope with it, try and donate everything you’ve got. Any shirt, sweater, figurine, plush, whatever the fuck it is, just donate it.”

Shylily encourages viewers to donate any merch of mine they may have, but doesn’t disavow burning it either.

53:05 - 53:37 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=3185

“The thing with the no drama rule is every time you have rules like this, there is a line that cannot be crossed. Cause once that line is crossed it’s fair game. And based on people’s reaction, I don’t think anyone blames me for getting involved and speaking up and strongly speaking about it. Once a certain line is crossed, it’s fair fucking game. I don’t give a fuck what kind of rules or morals I’ve got. It’s fair fucking game.”

53:37 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=3217

Lily is raided, and reacts exactly how you’d expect.

1:02:46 - 1:03:30 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=3766

“It’s when the dominoes fell. The dominoes fell. The actual starting point, the dominoes fell when one thing leaked. One singular thing, like five or so days ago. One thing leaked. A singular thing. And I go- It was about me being slandered, throwing all kinds of accusations around to Nano, making me seem problematic, weird, making me sound like a person someone wouldn’t want to work with, because who- who does those things?”

“One thing” did not leak “five or so days ago.” By what Bao said, Shylily messaged her on Friday, April 18th about what Nano told her. Five days before this stream was Wednesday, April 23rd, when Bao was brought into things after her surgery. As the timeline at the top of this page shows, “one thing leaked” two weeks before this. Shylily knew about this for two weeks by the time of her stream, and in that time never said anything to me.

The things Red said weren’t slander, and below you’ll see Shylily admit that herself.

1:03:30 - 1:05:09 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=3810

“They were saying I dodged collabs with them, collabs that had like seven fucking other people in there. Collabs I was thrown into in a big ass group chat and simply said, “Sorry, can’t do, I have something that day.” One of them was a dentist thing. I didn’t have it on that specific day, but I just didn’t want to. The day after the dentist, I just simply didn’t fucking want to. And the other one, yeah, I dodged. Yeah, I did. Yeah. Okay. Yeah, one of them I did because that one I already knew. And the other one, yes I dodged. But you know what’s weird? The one person that is the reason for me dodging is the one concerned as to why I’m dodging. What about the six other people who were just looking at me dodging and going “Oh, okay. She’s busy.” It’s kind of weird that the only person that has a reason to be weary was actually weary. What about the six other people that I also just left hanging where I said, “Sorry, I’m busy.” They just took it and they were like, “Okay, we’ll just replace someone else, cool.” You know, it’s called projection cause she fuckin knew. She knew. So anyways, I was accused of dodging, which somewhat fairly, I did do once.”

Shylily starts by talking about dodging collabs.

Here’s what Red said:

The one and only collab she can be talking about here was this REPO collab that happened on 3/21/2025.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aA_T5oZP6Oo

Here are the first messages of that collab being planned. It was originally going to be on 3/15/2025. Shylily said she was available.

One of our friends couldn’t make the 3/15 date for the collab, and because we wanted to include everyone, the collab was rescheduled to 3/21. Shylily said she was free, again.

On stream, Shylily said she “had something that day” she dodged the collab, and that it was a dentist appointment. But then says she didn’t have the appointment on the day of the collab, but the day after the dentist she didn’t want to collab.

Well, here’s Shylily’s tweet about her dentist appointment from 3/8/2025. That’s not 3/15 or 3/21?

https://x.com/shylilytwitch/status/1898344949206155695

So then, before anything else, Shylily said “And the other one, yeah, I dodged. Yeah I did. Okay. Yeah, one of them I did because that one I already knew. And the other one, yes I dodged.”

She said she dodged one collab with the excuse that she “already knew”, and another collab just because. So what Red said about dodging collabs wasn’t slander like she lied about.

The other collab I believe she’s referring to is this one that never happened from 3/27/2025 that was shown in Shylily’s section.

So if one collab was dodged on 3/21, and the other collab being planned on 3/27 was dodged, how could Shylily use the excuse that she “already knew” what happened between Nano and Red from their conversation on 4/12?

But this is what she said next:

“But you know what’s weird? The one person that is the reason for me dodging is the one concerned as to why I’m dodging. What about the six other people who were just looking at me dodging and going “Oh, okay. She’s busy.” It’s kind of weird that the only person that has a reason to be weary was actually weary. What about the six other people that I also just left hanging where I said, “Sorry, I’m busy.” They just took it and they were like, “Okay, we’ll just replace someone else, cool.” You know, it’s called projection cause she fuckin knew. She knew.”

The only collab Shylily could be talking about here is the REPO collab from 3/21.

First, let me address why she thinks I was “concerned and weary.” The day of the collab we were told Shylily wasn’t going to make it because of a Bikini Bottoms collab she had that day. Because we rescheduled this collab once for another friend, I thought we were going to reschedule again for Shylily so she could play with us. That’s all.

So far she’s said this collab was dodged because of a dentist appointment, then it was the day after a dentist appointment so she didn’t feel like it, then it was because she “already knew” what happened over two weeks in the future somehow, when in reality it was because of a Bikini Bottoms collab that day.

But did she dodge because of the Bikini Bottoms that day? No.

It’s true that Shylily had a Bikini Bottoms collab that day, but that was only at 2pm EST. Our REPO collab was at 11am EST, and lasted about three hours. Shylily would’ve been able to do both. Okay, but maybe she didn’t want to stream that long?

Shylily started her stream that day at 11am EST, just chatting for three hours until her Bikini Bottoms collab while the rest of us played REPO without her.

https://x.com/shylilytwitch/status/1903100072255963302

Here’s the vod of Shylily’s stream, with Bikini Bottoms starting about three hours in.

https://youtu.be/bh0vKEdJupo?t=10307

She could’ve played with us, but she dodged. Why? I believe it was because Shylily already had something against me unrelated to anything to do with Nano, and didn't want to “platform me” on her stream.

“The one person that is the reason for me dodging is the one concerned as to why I’m dodging.”

Shylily dodged at least two collabs with me. Red did not lie to Nano, and Shylily lied to everyone saying it was slander. She admitted to it herself on stream.

“So anyways, I was accused of dodging, which somewhat fairly, I did do once.”

1:05:09 - 1:06:32 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=3909

“Anyways, I was accused of not acknowledging her when she raids and like, oh, sorry. You know when Buff raided me earlier, I’m sorry for not calling Buff’s full government fucking Twitch.tv name. “Buffpup of Twitch.tv thank you so much for your raid and bringing your community from Buffpup from Twitch.tv over here.” Like, now I get to say it, when she raided she is center fucking stage. I am pausing my sponsor to talk to her!… Like, I’m having a normal ass reaction to a raid like I have with everyone. Oh sorry, I didn’t say “of VchiBan”, Sorry, “Buffpup from Twitch.tv of VchiBan.” There we go. My bad, my bad. Sorry. Can’t make mistakes like that. I don’t want to be a snake, you know? Got to get the full government name out there because apparently people don’t feel graced. Otherwise, people don’t feel like they did a good job raiding you. Like, damn, I’m sorry.

Next Shylily talks about the times I raided her and made a petty joke out of it.

Here’s what Red said:

Here are those two raids to Shylily:

3/30/2025 - Shylily greeted the raiders and didn't say hi or thank me for the raid.

6:52:52 https://youtu.be/yDBEnZN4dso?t=24772

4/11/2025 - Again, Shylily greeted the raiders and didn't say hi or thank me for the raid.

5:49:28 https://youtu.be/Vaz46f5QNZI?t=20968

The first thing she said was:

“Like, now I get to say it, when she raided she is center fucking stage. I am pausing my sponsor to talk to her!”

But at the start of both of these raids, Shylily said both of her sponsorships had already ended.

3/30/2025

6:53:20 https://youtu.be/yDBEnZN4dso?t=24800

“We were sponsored, but the game was really fun so I just kept playing…”

4/11/2025

5:49:55 https://youtu.be/Vaz46f5QNZI?t=20995

“We had a sponsor earlier. Oh, we do- No, we don’t have a sponsor anymore.”

Turns out she didn’t have to pause her sponsor to talk to me, as if that was her excuse to not say hi and thank me for sending her my community.

Then she said:

“Like, I’m having a normal ass reaction to a raid like I have with everyone.”

So what is a normal reaction to a raid from Shylily?

Here are a bunch of raids Shylily received in the same timeframe my two raids were. You can see how she reacted to them compared to mine.

4/2/2025 - 4:02:51 https://youtu.be/OL3r3P4gud0?t=14571

4/5/2025 - 1:58:22 https://youtu.be/2PWYytb5Lj4?t=7102

This raid happened while Shylily was in the middle of a sponsored segment.

4/6/2025 - 2:14:31 https://youtu.be/f8zUtQd3PMw?t=8071

4/12/2025 - 1:46:09 https://youtu.be/lfKoGqoXs3Q?t=6369

4/13/2025 - 11:38 https://youtu.be/on-rtclCRzE?t=698

22:26 https://youtu.be/on-rtclCRzE?t=1346

25:43 https://youtu.be/on-rtclCRzE?t=1543

5:57:15 https://youtu.be/on-rtclCRzE?t=21435

4/15/2025 - 4:52:31 https://youtu.be/KeCDXMBecxs?t=17551

There is a straightforward way Shylily thanks raids, the same way any streamer does. It’s more or less a variation of “____, thank you for the raid.” So why were my raids different unless she had a problem with me? Even for my raid on 3/30/2025, it’s like Shylily had to catch herself from how she’d normally greet a raid, and then chose not to greet me or thank me. Only later does she do so, catching herself again.

This was not about some kind of narcissistic entitlement or “feeling graced” by her for her not using my two syllable, “full government Twitch.tv name”, Sinder. There is a clear difference from how she treated me from other raiders. Unless you genuinely miss it or are unable to, I believe you should thank someone for raiding your stream. It’s common courtesy. Red wasn’t slandering Shylily to Nano about this, and Shylily lied about it.

Just as an example, here’s how Shylily would react to my raids in the past, this one being from the start of the year on 1/4/2025:

6:16:06 https://youtu.be/aK8OSE4gksk?t=22566

And this one from last year on 11/20/2024:

4:10:42 https://youtu.be/RPfJh3MnCX0?t=15042

And here are the messages she sent me after this raid. I in no way expected something like this every time I raided Shylily or anyone else.

1:06:39 - 1:06:53 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=3992

“Them saying I’ve been weird ever since VCard, which also isn’t true. We’ve literally done a collab ever since. We’ve talked ever since, I contacted her for a technical issue that you guys said she also had ever since.”

The last collab Shylily and I were in together was on 2/5/2025, four days after our VCard collab when the game launched. The only times we talked after that was when she turned me down for a collab on 3/3/2025, messaged me because she needed my help on 3/11/2025, and then in the group chat for the REPO collab she dodged. That’s it. To say this generalized claim from Red was an issue is ridiculous.

1:06:53 - 1:07:34 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4013

“It’s just, you know, just a bunch of stuff that makes me sound weird and competitive, when again, reflecting. That one screenshot started it all, and that was from, at that point, a few days ago. That one screenshot. That one- and I was like that’s fucked up, and I gave Nano the receipts of it’s not true. I did say- oh, I did ghost her in the dm once, I didn’t see the dm, but somehow before Nano worked on my 3.0 model that wasn’t a problem.”

That “bunch of stuff” was all true, so does that mean Shylily was weird and competitive towards me?

Shylily said that screenshot of Red’s dms that “started it all” were “from, at that point, a few days ago.” So not “five or so days ago” like she claimed earlier.

Shylily said she “gave Nano the receipts of it’s not true.” I don’t know what she would’ve shown Nano to convince her Red was lying to her about these things since they were all true, but she did somehow.

Shylily said she ghosted my dm once and that she didn’t see it, saying it wasn’t a problem before Nano worked on her new model. Once again admitting to something that Red said she was doing that she lied to everyone saying it was slander.

Her ghosting me was a problem before Nano was working on her 3.0 model. That’s why Red told Nano about it. Like I said in Shylily’s section, there wouldn’t have been any reason for Red to suspect Shylily getting a model from Nano if at the same time she wasn’t ghosting me, amongst all the other things she was doing.

From the first message she ghosted, to when she talked to Nano about Red was 17 days, and I had sent her three messages in that time.

1:07:34 - 1:08:19 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4054

“Everyone who is in contact with me, anyone who is close, even my viewers, everyone knows I suck at Discord. I’m very distant. I’m very messey. I don’t check often and I’m not very thorough. So, and she knows that too because it happened last year as well. She knows it too. It’s why we have a group chat with her and Boeska and me in it. So she wants to plan something. Hello? So she wants to plan something. She knows where to go, and she has used it, in the past, recently for VCards and stuff.”

I had no problems communicating directly with Shylily on Discord for almost six months to talk and plan things, not going through Boeska at all, and then all of a sudden there was a problem. The “VCards and stuff” she claims were through our group chat with him is a lie. I planned our VCard collab directly with Shylily in our dms that you read through entirely in that section.

1:08:28 - 1:09:00 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4108

“You don’t know every message I send on your behalf, obviously? Oh, oh yeah. Oh yeah I forgot. Boeska operates completely independent and I have absolutely no knowledge of anything happening ever. I just want this to be public knowledge so if I get canceled, I can throw him under the bus. Even when there is screenshots proving that I clearly am aware and I am confirming and doubling down and siding with him. I just want you guys to know.”

Petty.

1:09:07 - 1:09:40 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4147

“So anyways, yes, I am guilty of dodging a collab cause I simply didn’t fucking feel like it. And yes, I am guilty of ghosting two messages where she asks for a collab, which by the way, she also only does when there is something business related. AFK drop, VCard drop, any event, any debut, any announcement, any merch. Then I’m important. Then we can network.”

Shylily again admits to dodging a collab, this time settling on the “didn’t fucking feel like it” excuse.

Now she said she’s guilty of ghosting two of my messages, not one like she just said.

Shylily claims I only asked for collabs when there’s something “business related” involved, as if I was trying to profit off of her presence. She should know that claim is bullshit since one of the last times she responded to me was when I asked her to play Split Fiction on 3/3/2025, completely removed from any new drops or debuts.

But let’s look at the other times I asked her to collab too.

I explained my motivations for these two collabs in Shylily’s section. She ghosted them. On 4/4/2025 I had my sleepy model debut and AFK merch drop. That had nothing to do with wanting to collab with her for either of these.

The VCard collab on 2/1/2025 was explained in that section of this document. Yes, it was obviously a business motivated collab, but I also wanted to get to know Shylily better over something I thought we’d both be excited about.

Besides these, there were two other times I had ever asked Shylily to collab. Once in 2023, and once in 2024. That’s it. I didn’t know Shylily super well, and always assumed she was really busy. I had to go through Boeska to plan with her, and never wanted to bother her. In both cases, it took weeks if not months to actually make plans.

The first time I asked to collab was right after seeing her at TwitchCon Paris in 2023, which I just so happened to have my demon model debut already planned for right after my trip, and it had nothing to do with asking Shylily to do something together.

7/13/2023

7/22/2023 - I messaged Boeska since Shylily didn’t respond.

My demon model debut was on 7/15/2023, and this collab was on 8/30/2023.

8/30/2023

https://youtu.be/NMUnus1poc0?si=EOs-W7W-pDJc5Xp6

The second time I asked to collab was for my anniversary subathon in June 2024, since I was asking friends to come on my stream for it. She wasn’t able to, so I asked to plan something for July instead. After not hearing back for a month, I messaged again asking about a Nikke collab at the end of August after my bikini model debut was planned. Shylily had been using her new bikini model all year, and was the only one of my vtuber friends who was really into Nikke like me. What better way to do this Nikke collab but in bikinis together?

My bikini model debut was on 8/16/2024, and this collab was on 9/5/2024.

9/5/2024

https://youtu.be/QpJvGr3TGMc?si=4MhMT5XZEzT-i8hT

1:09:47 - 1:10:02 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4187

“So I am guilty of that, but like I said, I would like to excuse myself from those two sins because she knows better. It’s been a thing last year and last year it wasn’t a problem. Only until Nano worked on me, it was a problem.”

So, on her very first stream after I was canceled, Shylily admitted to ghosting me, admitted to dodging collabs with me, and made a joke out of me raiding her. The reason any of this happened was because Shylily lied and told Nano Red was slandering her, and she was being manipulated by him. Then, Nano’s document repeated that the things he said about Shylily were lies and slander. Well, all of those “slanderous lies” were true. I showed they were true, Shylily herself admitted they were true, and here we are. So why did she lie about them?

Shylily said she’d like to “excuse (herself) from those two sins” she admitted to, and then she blamed her actions on me because “(I should've known) better.”

Taking no accountability? Deflecting? Narcissistic manipulation?

All of the things Shylily projected onto me?

1:10:02 - 1:11:28 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4202

“Anyways, long story short, that was the one message that got everything rolling because I explained how that’s weird, that’s cringe and manipulative to do and bother Nano with. If she has a problem, why not come to me? And boy, that’s where it started. That’s where poor Nano realized that there is more such incidents and if this is weird, she has critical thinking, and she's like if this is weird are the others also weird, the ones where she literally on the screenshots says she feels bad for doing all these things she’s being asked to do. That’s where it started and obviously me being a friend, I told- I talked to Nano and I was like Nano I’m going to be honest, some of the stuff you have here is heartbreaking. I’m thankful for you showing this to me, but I highly encourage you to show, to share this with the people affected, especially Bao, because you know that one nasty one where she sabotages Bao. Especially that one. And Nano the fucking gigachad agreed. She agreed.”

Shyily makes a point that I should’ve just talked to her, not go to Nano. But I didn’t go to Nano. Red did. As much as Shylily wanted to push the idea, Red and I are not the same person. When I was ready to confront Shylily about what was going on, I did. She never responded because she was already in the middle of organizing my cancellation.

Did “poor Nano” realize there were “more incidents”, or did Shylily ask her if there were more? And what did Red ask Nano to do that she supposedly felt bad about? Nothing.

Shylily highly encouraged Nano to share these things with Bao, but Shylily was the one who had to reach out to Bao herself. Nano may have agreed, but she couldn’t do it without Shylily’s help.

1:11:29 - 1:15:28 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4289

“So we made a group chat like a few days later because Bao had surgery, so it took a while. We made a group chat. Can you imagine that gigachad fucking whale comes out of surgey and has to deal with this. That group chat we used to expose everything, not just you know from Nano’s messages and having to deal with her manipulation, but we also came to realize that everything that happened to us individually weren’t those- those weren’t isolated incidences, where you’re like well fuck it happens. Sometimes you do something that you regret. Sometimes you call your friend a bitch. Sometimes you throw a friend under another bus in the heat of the moment. Hopefully you regret doing that, but that’s a different story. But we realized that it wasn’t just a coincidence. It wasn’t just one incident. It wasn’t just an isolated incident. It was a year long pattern. Everything connected. It was a pattern that consisted over years that just kept going, nonstop, you know. And that’s when we knew this is fucked up. And respect to my friends, we all decided after all of the receipts, and obviously being very emotionally unstable, to sleep over it for a night. Obviously, we were all ready for blood. We were like, “what the fuck, no way.” But we still decided to sleep a night over it. Give it one night. Let’s sleep over it one night. The next day once everyone was awake and had time to deal with their emotions, we all still knew this has to happen. Like I’m sorry, but sleeping over this just made it so much more clear that this can’t be. And this is where I noticed this isn’t just to expose what she’s done to us. This is to expose the fact that she is doing these things, and who?- This is speculation. This is complete speculation. But if that’s the stuff that happens in this circle, what else could happen? A pattern is a pattern. You know, again, speculation, but we were like, how we would feel terrible knowing that she conducts business throughout the next couple years hurting more people like this. Can’t do. Can’t do. No. It turns out, yeah. Turns out it was a bit bigger than just our group. Google doccy. Turns out it was just a bit bigger than our group. And so yeah, and we all knew she was going to throw her manager under the bus. We all fucking knew. We all- when you look at the screenshots and you know her and you see the manipulation, the first fucking thing you know is she’ll throw her manger under the bus. Everything went live and you know what she’s done? The first thing they both did, they messaged Nano going “Nano, please.” You know what the absolute fucking gigachat did? Blocked. Blocked.”

“Obviously, we were all ready for blood.”

On her stream, Bao didn’t sound like she was “ready for blood?” Was Shylily projecting that bloodlust onto everyone involved so it didn’t sound like she wasn’t the weird and problematic one, or was Bao putting on a performance for the audience?

“But we still decided to sleep a night over it. Give it one night.”

“We all still knew this has to happen.”

With the limited misinformation they got from Nano, Shylily, ready for blood, pushing things along, and my friends using their confirmation bias from a few other past experiences, they chose to cancel me over one night, without ever contacting me.

1:16:02 - 1:17:54 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4562

“But then, the next evening, the quote unquote apology dropped. And one part struck me specifically, because she very clearly, first of all, isn’t a fucking apology… But it wasn’t even an apology. It was I’m sorry you feel this way. I’m sorry that happened to you. I’m sorry you got caught in this. I’m sorry I was manipulated into hurting you. Fuck of an apology bro. And one thing that struck me specifically is when she dedicated a section to me and someone else. First of all, okay, I am petty. I didn’t even get a section for myself. I am going to be super petty. Not even a section for myself. For someone that is so upset for me not naming her full fucking government Twitch.tv name. For someone to just put me in a document as “Lily” when previously referring to me as “the other Gamer Supps owner”, I don’t even get a section for myself with my name properly fucking written. Come on bro, don’t be such a hypocrite. You don’t get to be upset at that shit and then put me there, throw me in there and be like I’m so sorry I had no knowledge of this. And that’s when I got mad because no knowledge my ass, but here’s the problem. A lot of what we know is hearsay cause the girls spend time together. Vacation, travel, blah blah blah, you know?...

Shylily complained that she didn’t get her own section in my apology, as if anything was actually done to her. My two syllable name and a thank you was too much to ask for after raiding my friend. I didn’t refer to Shylily as “the other Gamer Supps owner”, Red did. Separate person.

“I don’t even get a section for myself with my name properly fucking written. Come on bro, don’t be such a hypocrite. You don’t get to be upset at that shit and then put me there, throw me in there and be like I’m so sorry I had no knowledge of this.”

I don’t get to be upset at the petty actions towards me because I called her “Lily.” This is extremely narcissistic.

1:18:49 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4729

While waiting for her ad break to end:
“Chat, it’s just business! It’s just, I’m just making a living! It’s just business! I’m sorry, it’s just business.”

Petty.

1:19:54 - 1:20:54 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4794

Like I said already, If more proof of their claims existed and wasn’t shown due to it containing personal info like she claimed, they could’ve censored it. My private messages with Numi are the only thing I can imagine she’s talking about. If it is that, and Numi wanted to keep it private, then Shylily chose to baselessly talk all about Numi’s concert in her tweet and on her stream against Numi’s wishes because she knew how talking about it would make me look.

1:20:57 - 1:24:19 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4857

“For her to claim she has no knowledge when I know for a fact she does, but I have no proof other than hearsay, it reminded me of that one, of that one fact. The one receipt we do have though, where she herself personally throws me under the bus, and I made sure to quote her own words because again, that screenshot isn’t public. But I made sure to quote her words. She’ll know what we’re talking about. Those quotation marks, the literal quote. I made sure she knows what I’m talking about, what I’m referring about. The screenshot isn’t there, but there's a couple like that. And the fact that you only took accountability for stuff that’s been published and not the stuff that was kept hidden enough for me to have her use me as part of an excuse as to why she had to let her friend down. That very same friend that spent months of prep, hard work, and effort, and received a million empty promises just because a couple days before that she wanted to reschedule a VCard collab to, you know, make a nice big boom as a collab and sell a bunch of boxes to make some bag. Yeah. Imagine for a fucking collab. Could have had the collab any other day, too. Could have been a day or two earlier. Could have been a day or two later. She rescheduled that collab to be on that date. She put it there on that date that she knew she couldn’t. And the only time she ever felt sorry in both the apology and before, guess what? When she was put in her fucking place. People saying, “Why didn’t you handle this privately?” We did once. We did. And she’s only deflecting and pretending to be apologetic when put on the spot. No proper apology from her before the crash. None. None. She’s only sorry when she gets caught. Cause she knows fucking with that friend that she fucked with will mean the end of her career. Cause if you’re not good standing with that person, you’re not good standing with like probably 80% of the indies that matter to her, cause she is the glue that keeps them fucking together half the time. She wasn’t sorry because she fucked over her friend’s opportunity on a day that she said she’ll be there. She was sorry she was caught in true narcissistic, selfish, egotistic fashion. She’s sorry she got caught.”

“For her to claim she has no knowledge when I know for a fact she does, but I have no proof…” Shylily had no proof I knew anything, she just “knew” I did, but pushed everything to be made public anyway.

Shylily is talking about Numi’s concert here, but never shows anything about it. The quote she used in her reply to me was from my private conversation with Numi. “Pressure to live up to what Lily is.” Shylily expected me to take public accountability for an already privately settled situation, once again falsely claiming that I used her as an excuse, and that it was all about the money to me.

When asked why she didn't handle this privately, Shylily said “We did once. We did.”

She’s talking about my private apology to Numi about her concert, which ended with me taking accountability and trying to make things right, and Numi forgiving me. “They” didn’t handle anything privately before. Shylily didn’t handle anything privately. But then she wanted to imply that because Red said “we” in his messages to Nano, it meant I knew of and agreed with everything he said. Once again putting standards on me that she wasn’t holding herself to.

I believe Shylily was the one who was pushing everyone not to handle any of this privately.

Here are my final messages with Shylily, Nano, and Bao.

4/21/2025

4/15/2025

3/28/2025

Just to make it clear, the person Shylily said you need to be in good standing with is Numi.

Shylily also said “She was sorry she was caught in true narcissistic, selfish, egotistic fashion. She’s sorry she got caught.”

1:24:19 - 1:25:43 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5090

“Oh, let me just platform that very same person that tried to deplatform me and all of my friends that helped her get there to begin with. Let me just continue to platform that one person that tried to backstab us when begging to be in our positions. Fuck no. Throwing me and Gamer Supps under the bus to save her ass. Fuck no. “All the pressure I feel.” What pressure? The pressure you begged for? The pressure you told them you wanted to have? The responsibility you asked for? Where you wanted to be alongside me? Fuck no. What pressure? Hell no. Fuck off my dick bro.”

No, Red and I didn’t try to deplatform Shylily, any of my friends, or anyone else. None of either of our actions remotely come close to that. Shylily did that to me. The most anyone was “backstabbed” was in the deal Red made with Nano behind my back, and I already went over how that really played out. If there was any evidence of me trying to deplatform and backstab any of my friends, why didn’t Shylily show that at all?

Then, talking about Numi’s concert again, says I blamed her and Gamer Supps when I didn’t. It didn’t happen. She goes on to talk about the pressure I was under when I made that decision. No, I didn’t beg for that pressure, and I didn’t beg for my part ownership position like she claims. I was surprised with the offer by Gamer Supps because of my performance with the company, and I accepted it. By what she claimed, Shylily seems to agree that the position did come with pressure and responsibility. The same pressure and responsibility that led to me making my decision about the concert.

1:26:55 - 1:29:11 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5215

“Chat, you’re not the only person that says I always had a feeling. I know lots of you are probably men, so you wouldn’t maybe quite get it, but as a woman, you can’t not get along with another woman based on a gut feeling. You can’t do that. You’re a catty bitch, you can’t do that. You can’t not get along with someone because- of no reason, when they prove to be everything but a threat. You can’t do that. I’m sure it happens with guys too, maybe. You can’t just be like, “Nah, she’s too nice.” You can’t do that. What the fuck kind of reason is she’s being too nice to not like someone? You can’t do that. So most people stay back, usually when you have a gut feeling, in my case, anyways. Usually when you have a gut feeling you stay back and you observe. You take distance. I’m a very distant, very in my own lane kind of person to begin with. I’m very distant, very minding my own business, very just me and myself time, you know? Usually you stay back and then you observe for an entire year of how nothing goes wrong and how your friends like that friend and how everything seems peachy. And then you’re like, you know what, my gut feeling is fucking ass, I fucking knew it. Shouldn’t have trusted it. You know what? Should have trusted it. Yeah. I’m sure guys can also be catty, yeah. But yeah, I can’t always trust my gut cause I’ve also had gut feelings about people where I’m like, you know what, that was unnecessary. I was just already cautious based on nothing.”

Shylily told her chat she’s always had a bad gut feeling about me.

1:29:26 - 1:33:30 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5366

“Long story short, vtuber makes friends in the vtuber space. Friends appreciate having a friend. Turns out they were never a friend. They never intended or wanted to be friends. It was never about friendship. It was always about climbing the career ladder. Said friend, let’s call her “Snake.” Said friend sabotaged, backstabbed, and manipulated behind the scenes. When everything came out because of the first screenshot leaking, followed by more stuff leaking, everyone got together and realized, “Wow, we’ve been fucked for the last couple years.” Interesting. Anyways, fast forward. Google doccy. Fast forward. Apology without a ukulele. And I kind of crashed out because how fucking dare you take zero accountability. All she had to do- You want a good apology for when you fuck up? Vtubers, future streamers? Write this shit down. You ever need an apology for when you actually fuck up, for when you are the bad bitch? Just say, “I’m fucking sorry I acted this way. My greed has caused a lot of damage. Greed that got to me from growing too fast and being too filthy rich by riding on my friends backs instead of seeing how grateful I was supposed to be for it. I saw them as nothing but an asset. I’ve been truly blinded by how absolutely malicious, vile, and toxic I’ve treated them behind the scenes, pretending to be a friend while separating business and sabotaging them. I can never repair the damage I’ve caused, and I see now clearly what it truly means to lose everything that you were supposed to be grateful for. I’ll take some time away and hope to better myself. I’ll never be able to repair what I’ve broken, but I can try and come forward and be a better person in hopes to have learned from this absolutely awful thing that I’ve done to my most closest and most supportive, loving friends, that are the sole reason I have this platform to begin with.” Boom. Just own up to it. Take some accountability. Just be like, “Yeah, I’ve been a dick. Yeah, I’ve been a fucking ass. Yeah, I’ve been blinded. So blinded by my success and money and greed for even more. The greed was unbearable. Yes, I’m terrible.” Done. Of course I wouldn’t fucking believe her. What the fuck. Manipulator. Fucking of course not. Obviously not. But it’s the only way to set things right. You can’t fix them, but it’s the only way to set things right and to maybe not be a fucking laughingstock for like the next half a year.”

Shylily’s summary of what happened is a complete lie. Then she presents how she thinks I should’ve apologized for the things she decided I did, falsely framing me as greedy from "growing too fast and being too filthy rich.” This is coming from Shylily.

1:34:38 - 1:35:40 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5678

“Yeah, the way she barely acknowledged her fan base in her apology. What the fuck? She gave you guys one fucking line. She gave you one fucking line. She’s like, “Yeah, I’m sorry. I’m sorry you feel bad with me.” Like what? Girl? Holy shit. Crazy. So at the very end of the doccy, the Google doccy, you get a little, quick, “Oh yeah, sorry, I forgot, yeah, I’m sorry you feel this way.” What can I say? It’s shrimply business. Yeah. Shrimply business. It is what it is. Cheers!”

She continues to turn my audience against me in a string of petty insults. I’m sorry that when I was being attacked publicly from all sides by everyone I knew, the focus of what I wrote wasn't on my community.

1:39:39 - 1:40:01 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5979

“She saw me as competition, painted it on me for asking for it by wanting a model from the same model mama, which is a bit weird when she's the one begging for a partial owner and all kinds of other things that she wants from me. But hey, somehow I’m the one who’s looking for trouble for wanting a new model.”

I didn’t see Shylily as competition, and Red’s view was more than just going to Nano for a model. If she treated me like a friend, it wouldn’t have been something he brought up to her.

She claimed I was “begging for partial ownership and all kinds of other things (I wanted) from (her).”

That’s wild. Not only did she have nothing to do with my part ownership, as if she had the power to give it to me, not once have I ever said anything about that to her. Ever. “All kinds of other things I wanted from her?” To hang out and get to know her? I’ve never begged Shylily for anything. What a narcissistic thing to say.

1:42:24 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=6144

“Maybe they will just rebrand Sinder’s flavor into “It’s Just Business.” It might still sell.”

Petty.

2:15:57 - 2:16:43 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=8157

“Yes queen, show us nothing! Address nothing! Shift all the blame! And on top of that, only apologize for the shit that’s public, and not all the other stuff you’ve done! I didn’t know the things that my man said and also the things I’ve done myself all by myself that you guys have receipts of but you didn’t post them so I didn’t know and didn’t apologize for them. Yes queen, shift the blame.”

Shyliliy was the one who was expecting me to publicly take accountability for everything and anything I’ve ever done, like what happened with Numi’s concert, even though it was already settled privately between us.

2:17:00 - 2:19:40 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=8220

“I will not deny that, obviously, you won’t always know every single little thing, the ins and outs of every single detail and word. But be for real. To sit and pretend that your man and manager handles everything for you without you knowing a singular freaking- Be for real… Like obviously there’s going to be situations where you might genuinely get fucked over by what someone else is doing and you didn’t know. But not for years, and not for so long, and not for every single thing. When you yourself have receipts of doubling down and doing the same thing, also in person, but that’s hearsay. So can’t put it on a Google doccy, but, we know better… Red is with Sinder like 24/7, and we’ve seen them share messages by going like, here, check this out, like- but again, like I said, this isn’t proof, this is hearsay, I understand. But this topic is beyond just you guys and seeing what she’s done, it’s also just personal stuff that bleeds into it obviously, right? So it’s clearly also hearsay. Obviously there will be some hearsay to say, but the Google doccys only have receipts. They obviously only have receipts. They only talk truth. They only talk facts. Only receipts. But obviously there’s more from spending so much time, travels and vacations together.”

Shylily says “you won’t always know every single little thing”, in reference to me knowing about Red’s messages. But the standard of knowing everything was unfairly applied to me when it mattered. Shylily also claimed “this” was going on for years, when it wasn’t. She says the times my friends saw us sharing messages on our phones in person prove I knew everything.

Shylily said the documents, Nano’s and Bao’s, “only talk the truth. They only talk facts.”

2:23:10 - 2:23:30 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=8590

“It’s a long story. Long story short, a friend of our friend circle that has been a friend for many years turned out to never have been a friend. We were just stepping stones in her career ladder and like, it wasn’t enough to just step over us. She wanted to also just burn the fucking ladder down that she climbed.”

This is a blatant lie, and it’s not true at all. I believe Shylily must’ve been the one who convinced my friends of this.

2:23:55 - 2:25:10 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=8635

“Also crazy what happened to Silver. Crazy. The shit she sold us. The shit she said. I knew it wasn’t the truth because I’ve heard the exact opposite story. But when she goes on and on for years, you eventually feel like that one story you’ve heard isn’t true. You’ll start to doubt the source. You’re like, really? Is that?- To hate someone on such a deep level that literally doens’t talk to you, doesn’t hurt you, doesn’t do anything to you, doesn’t get in your way, minds their own business… Yeah, same for Spite.

I’ve never said anything about Silvervale to Shylily. I don’t know how she can claim she “knew it wasn’t the truth” unless she heard the opposite story from Silvervale herself. Everything I told my other friends about mine and Red’s experience with Silver was true, and it’s all laid out in her section of this document. Both of us had no reason to lie to them about her. You’ll see how I really felt about Silvervale and how our relationship played out in her section.

2:27:00 - 2:27:21 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=8820

“Yeah, luckily, somehow I’ve never known about the Spite situation. Completely oblivious. But then again, I wasn’t nearly as close. Didn’t spend nearly as much time with her as my other friends. But that was somehow still enough to see me as a fucking threat. Even though I’ve done nothing but platform her whenever she asked to be platformed.”

The only time she’s “platformed” me and streamed any of our collabs herself was our VCard collab on 2/1/2025. Other than that, the few times we’ve done anything together it’s always been on my stream. I platformed her more than she ever did me, with her dodging the REPO collab possibly so she wouldn’t “platform” me.

2:29:02 - 2:30:11 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=8942

“Man, why? The crazy part to me is you’re the face of vtubing. Why do you still have to quench and squelch the very friends who put you there between your toes. You’ve got it all. You’re burning these bridges for like the last 2%, 3%? Like what? Like do you not do any self reflecting? Look at your fucking YouTube. Every single video is about someone… It’s never about you. And there’s nothing wrong with it. Some people simply operate better when bouncing off of other personalities. But to have messages demanding recognition from people you despise, and sabotage, because you’re bigger and better than them, and got there on your own?”

Yes, my YouTube channel is made up of videos of me and my friends, but everything Shylily said here is a lie. I wasn’t burning bridges. I wasn’t demanding recognition. I wasn’t sabotaging anyone. The things she’s referring to here, and completely mischaracterizing, are from something Red said about Silvervale once in July of 2023. She’s talking as if they were my own words, that it somehow applies to other people other than Silvervale, and it’s relevant to my own actions almost two years after the fact.

2:32:40 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=9160

“Hello Yocci- Oh sorry, I must acknowledge people by their full legal government name, or else I’m misbehaving. I’m being weird and acting weird, I’m sorry. Thank you for gracing me with your presence in my chat today Yoclesh from Twitch.tv.”

Petty.

2:35:30 - 2:36:03 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=9330

“God, I was just so angry. Every paragraph that was just deflecting. You know what also hit me really wrong? You know what hit me the wrong way? All of the damage she caused to specifically Spite and Silver. All of the damage she caused. All the bad mouthing. All of the sabotaging career things. All she did was- “Me being called these things caused me to do it. Me being manipulated by the hate caused me to do it.” What about everything you caused?

“Every paragraph that was just deflecting”, kind of like how Shylily deflected her actions to Nano to begin with? And then after admitting to them on this stream, blamed it on me?

Shylily makes a good point here. What about everything I, or Red, caused to Silvervale and Spite? Well, I’ve laid out everything that was caused to either of them at the start of this document in the accountability section. You’ll see it in their own sections too. You’ll also see all of the things I didn’t cause, but the public was told I caused. You already saw Nano canceling Silver’s model in November 2023, but blaming it on me, and Silvervale and Spite made plenty of their own claims too that are addressed in their sections.

2:36:32 - 2:36:51 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=9392

“What destroyed me was Bao being sad in the same group chat Sinder was in about her model being canceled? Yeah. Imagine. Didn’t even have the balls to fucking say anything. You know what? Because she knew what she was doing was fucking wrong. She knew.

Wrong again, but Shyliy seems to know a lot about “having the balls to say anything” when she could never say anything herself.

2:39:37 - 2:40:00 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=9577

“Like, in your own words, it’s just business. I’m sorry, but then in true business fashion, you’re going to have to take responsibility for what happens in your business, just like everyone else. If someone truly does get fucked over, if someone truly does something behind your back, well, you can’t just be like, “it wasn’t me” and throw your hands in the air and be like, “well too bad.””

Shylily’s use of “it’s just business” was obviously not the same as my use of the phrase.

2:40:58 - 2:41:12 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=9658

“We found out like fucking five days ago. Collected the evidence for a day, and then slept over it for a day to really- because we realized we have career ending fucking evidence. So we went to fucking bed, then posted it.”

Shylily again lies about the timeline of events. She found out about this two weeks ago, not five days ago. “Five days ago” was when Shylily and Nano told Bao after her surgery. They actually didn’t have “career ending fucking evidence”, but because Nano lied to everyone, and everything Red said was projected onto me, I believe Shylily used the little “evidence” she had to make sure it ended my career.

2:42:32 - 2:43:28 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=9752

“You know what? Again, I’m not even upset at your friend because he probably sees this, and just like the people before, he is just being successfully manipulated. I want to be mad and be like “what the fuck’s wrong with you?” Chances are your friend’s probably just some very naive young guy or girl and goes, “I don’t think that’s enough.” And I’m like, well give it a few more years. Go see the real world and you will see the absolute audacity, narcissistic manipulation in all of this. If you don’t see anything wrong with ____ proof of someone sabotaging the friends that platform them, I don’t know man.”

Shylily told a viewer that their friend was naive for asking for more evidence of the claims made against me. It’s really funny that Shylily said to give it a few more years before they’d see the “absolute audacity, narcissistic manipulation in all of this”, because it only took five months to make the narcissistic manipulation abundantly clear.

Throughout her whole stream trashing me, Shylily avoided accountability, gave excuses, deflected, and made jokes out of the things she was doing while simultaneously admitting to everything she claimed was slander and manipulation that turned Nano against me in the first place. Shylily didn’t care about the lies she was telling about me on stream. She won, and celebrated my cancellation. She couldn’t help but take a victory lap around my corpse. Says a lot about her narcissistic character. Accountability only mattered to her when it’s the other way around. I should’ve known better than to expect the Shylily to hold herself to the same standards as she did “Snake.”

Shylily is the only one who was involved that has a highlight video of her stream talking about me on her main YouTube channel. She was more than happy to profit off of this, and broadcast her lies about me to her 1,000,000 subscribers.

https://youtu.be/7Q7_EsJ9yEk?si=ruZxySLokEiMnJLL

——————————

What did Shylily have against me in the first place? Speculation

Shylily lied about me on her stream, lied about me in her reply, lied about me to my friends, and lied to Nano at the very start. The actions she said were slander, she admitted to on stream. Clearly, Shylily had something against me before Red ever talked to Nano about her, according to her as early as 3/21/2025 when she dodged the REPO collab. So what was her problem?

“The one person that is the reason for me dodging is the one concerned as to why I’m dodging.”

Let’s look at some of the things she said on her stream again:

11:05 - 11:21 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=665

“You don’t have to give me bitties and shmoney to make me feel better - we’re not like that in here! I’m sorry. I’m not sorry, but like, coping okay? Coping.”

45:07 - 46:08 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=2707

49:00 - 49:12 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=2940

1:09:07 - 1:09:40 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4147

1:20:57 - 1:24:19 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=4857

“…That very same friend that spent months of prep, hard work, and effort, and received a million empty promises just because a couple days before that she wanted to reschedule a VCard collab to, you know, make a nice big boom as a collab and sell a bunch of boxes to make some bag. Yeah. Imagine for a fucking collab. Could have had the collab any other day, too…”

1:24:19 - 1:25:43 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5090

1:29:26 - 1:33:30 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5366

“…All she had to do- You want a good apology for when you fuck up? Vtubers, future streamers? Write this shit down. You ever need an apology for when you actually fuck up, for when you are the bad bitch? Just say, “I’m fucking sorry I acted this way. My greed has caused a lot of damage. Greed that got to me from growing too fast and being too filthy rich by riding on my friends backs instead of seeing how grateful I was supposed to be for it. I saw them as nothing but an asset. I’ve been truly blinded by how absolutely malicious, vile, and toxic I’ve treated them behind the scenes, pretending to be a friend while separating business and sabotaging them. I can never repair the damage I’ve caused, and I see now clearly what it truly means to lose everything that you were supposed to be grateful for. I’ll take some time away and hope to better myself. I’ll never be able to repair what I’ve broken, but I can try and come forward and be a better person in hopes to have learned from this absolutely awful thing that I’ve done to my most closest and most supportive, loving friends, that are the sole reason I have this platform to begin with.” Boom. Just own up to it. Take some accountability. Just be like, “Yeah, I’ve been a dick. Yeah, I’ve been a fucking ass. Yeah, I’ve been blinded. So blinded by my success and money and greed for even more. The greed was unbearable. Yes, I’m terrible.” Done. Of course I wouldn’t fucking believe her. What the fuck. Manipulator. Fucking of course not. Obviously not. But it’s the only way to set things right. You can’t fix them, but it’s the only way to set things right and to maybe not be a fucking laughingstock for like the next half a year.”

1:39:39 - 1:40:01 https://youtu.be/sju9NXxseD4?t=5979

Shylily viewed me as a very greedy person, and that all of my actions were due to my alleged greed. She encouraged viewers to donate any and all of my merch, but didn’t dissuade them from burning it either. Shylily also wants to make it seem like I begged to be in her position at Gamer Supps as a part owner, even begging her for it, as if I was jealous of her. Not because I actually earned it like she did. She seemed to have a very emotional outburst when talking about me calling myself “the Charizard of VCard.”

Not that she’d know this, but for my debut anniversary on 6/25/2025 I was supposed to be releasing a limited edition tub of Pyro Power with a promo VCard, both with art drawn by Nanoless. Red and I fought with Gamer Supps to make my promo card the same card across all purchases instead of having a one in ten chance of getting the holographic one. It could’ve made so much more money if people needed to buy a bunch of tubs to get the “right” card, but it wasn’t about the money to me, or Red.

But let’s look at more evidence of this besides what she said on her stream.

The first message of mine Shylily ghosted was about another VCard collab when the rules were updated.

3/28/2025

The very next day on her stream from 3/29/2025, Shylily received a TTS message about my then upcoming AFK flavor.

The first thing she said was that she had nothing to do with my part ownership.

“Oh, because she’s co owner? That has nothing to do with me, bro. I don’t have a saying that. That shit had nothing to do with me. Don’t look at me, bro. It’s got nothing to do with me. That’s Gamer Supps- leave me out of that shit… It ain’t got nothing to do with me… Those are all Gamer Supps decision.”

She then says Gamer Supps has been “begging” her to make a new flavor. She goes into an almost ten minute rant about how she’s “not all about the money”, but that she has a bunch of things lined up she could release whenever she wants, but she’s not like that. Pretty blatantly in contrast to the TTS message about me.

3/29/2025

34:31 - 44:07 https://youtu.be/XNf3J-ZzBlg?t=2071

This was well before Red ever talked to Nano about Shylily on 4/12.

On her stream from 4/29/2025, a day after talking about my cancellation, Shylily told her audience she highly suggests that the right thing for me to do is to give up my Gamer Supps part ownership.

4/29/2025

39:26 - 45:14 https://youtu.be/PxhCBUXEFyA?t=2366

“Okay, so this is pure speculation okay, like, pure speculation. This hasn’t happened yet, and I am not in a position to talk to Gamer Supps about it to begin with either. Right. Pure speculation. I highly doubt they would remove a flavor fully. I don’t even think they would remove her who shall not be named fully to begin with. As a, I’m not sure how much business knowledge any of you guys have, but any amount of partial ownership makes it difficult to just force someone to step down. They can step down willingly, which I highly suggest she does. If she has any ounce of guilt, regret, and anything, you know, she would do it herself to protect the others, to truly show that she cares about the others that have to forcefully associate with her, alongside her despite the damages she has caused in their careers. Not just morally and emotionally, but also financially. Like, you know, debuts can be expensive… If I had to guess where this is going, I think Gamer Supps is kind of forced to wait for her to return. I am pretty sure she has kind of- I am certain or hope that she is currently far from the interwebs. So currently there isn’t really anything you can do. But if I had to speculate on a few options that could happen if she comes back, surrenders her shares and sells them at a fair market value. So she can protect the people who no longer wish to be associated alongside a brand that supports her that she has once been the face of… Either she does this not only as a sign to show that she can and is bettering herself and she is making decisions to start undoing some of the hurt by distancing herself from the ones she has hurt. So they no longer have to associate alongside her forcefully, or she does the opposite and we’ll see. I don’t know. And or she simply remains just an affiliate of the brand, not a bigger name, not in anything. She’s just part of the affiliation.”

I want to make this clear. I reached my decision to give up my part ownership myself, and Shylily had nothing to do with my choice.

But Shylily said this as if I needed to repent for the lies she and others told about me. Gamer Supps had nothing to do with anything that happened, but that didn’t stop Shylily from telling her viewers it was what she wanted me to do. If Shylily really cared about the impact my part ownership would have on Gamer Supps, she would’ve considered handling things privately with me instead of being the driving force in making all of these lies public, losing the company hundreds of thousands of dollars. She probably knew all of this controversy about me could be a way to push me out of the company, all while keeping her own hands clean. It wouldn't look good for Shylily to go after the “other Gamer Supps owner” after all.

Two days after that stream on 5/1/2025, Shylily couldn’t help herself and made an announcement in the VCard production server where the staff, vtubers, and artists develop the game, notifying everyone. She chose to involve the over seventy people in this server in what happened, personally.

I don’t have a screenshot of the discord notification, or the full message, because it was deleted shortly after it was made. However, I have a screenshot of my notification history from that day when it happened showing a part of what she said.

5/1/2025

“I feel sorry for you guys dealing with stuff that is none of yo(ur business, or concern?)”

If Shylily wasn’t trying to get everyone in this server involved, then no one would have to be dealing with this “stuff” like she said.

Here is the Discord channel it was in.

Here is proof of the date of this screenshot.

At some point, she even took the time to go back and delete her reply to my part ownership announcement.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1880098216836059430

Not only did Shylily admit to always having a bad feeling about me, but I believe Shylily had a problem with me because of my performance in Gamer Supps. I was now a part owner, a title she exclusively held as a vtuber before me. Something unique to her. I would always be planning and launching things with Gamer Supps, something she was unwilling to do like she said on her stream from 3/29/2025. She viewed that as a cash grab, as greedy. But I don’t think just being a part owner was the problem. I think most importantly, she didn’t like how enthusiastic I was about VCard, and the role I was carving out for myself in it. Not only did I mistakenly give out information early when VCard launched, like I showed in that section, but mine became the most sought after card in her game.

The Charizard of VCard

“Oh, the Charizard and Blastoise of VCard doing the-” (Gags) Oh, like, how dare you sit there and pretend to be some box legendary of something that you didn’t create. Disgusting. Trust me, we all cringed, but people sometimes get excited and they do cringeworthy stuff.”

I called myself the “Charizard” to advertise myself in the game, and advertise the cards themselves. Everyone knows Pokemon, and everyone knows Charizard. VCard’s first set of cards was like Pokemon’s base set. I compared myself and Shylily to the Charizard and Blastoise of the vtuber card game because we were the two vtuber part owners of Gamer Supps. Like Pokemon Red and Blue. Calling myself this wasn’t to try to steal her thunder in her game, or take credit for it in any way. I may have called her Blastoise, but she’s literally the Pikachu of VCard.

Shylily didn’t like me calling myself “the Charizard.” She didn’t like the prominence it gave me in her game. But Gamer Supps did.

This is from one of my Gamer Supps contacts last December. We’ll call them GS #1.

12/12/2024

This is from another person at Gamer Supps, GS #2, a few days before VCard launched on 1/31/2025.

1/28/2025

Another message from GS #1 over a month after VCard launched.

3/11/2025

And here’s a message from another person at Gamer Supps, GS #3.

3/14/2025

Set 2: Awakened Worlds

Out of the very few vtubers not returning in set two of VCard, I was one of them. However, that wasn’t supposed to be the case. My three cards for set two were completed before I was canceled, and I was going to be a water type. I was told weeks after my cancellation that I had been removed from the lineup.

Here’s a cropped version of one of my card artworks that went unused.

I may be wrong about this, but after I was cancelled and removed, another vtuber who I didn’t remember being part of the set was able to be added and presumably fill my vacant water card slot.

——————————

The Claims About Numi’s Concert, and her Stream on 4/28/2025

Like I said in the section about this, I was expected to talk about this in my apology when:

It was never mentioned in Nano’s or Bao’s documents, because why would it have been?
It was about Numi, who was not one of my accusers.
It was settled privately between Numi and I in January, where I already took accountability for my actions.

This event was publicly used against me, especially by Shylily, after I had already made my apology and had no way to defend myself or tell my side of the story. It was vaguely talked about without ever showing any evidence to support the narrative of me betraying and manipulating my friends.

“Over half a year” of Planning

Bao said I was planning Numi’s concert with her for “over half a year.”

Shylily said there was “months of continuous planning” in her reply to my apology.

If this was planned with me “over half a year”, why was Numi’s first message to me inviting me as a guest on 11/25/2024, about two months before the concert? And only a month later, and just over 5 weeks before the show, messaged Red, not me, to start planning my performance on 12/26/2024? Numi’s concert in NYC was on February 1st, 2025. Her concert in general may have been planned for longer, but not my inclusion in it.

11/25/2024

12/26/2024

No Remorse

Shylily said I “never (felt) bad for failing (my friends)”, in reference to Numi’s concert, and on stream said “And the only time she ever felt sorry in both the apology and before, guess what? When she was put in her fucking place.”

This is a lie. Here’s the tweet I made in the middle of the night after I messaged Numi about not coming to her show, and before I heard from her.

1/29/2025

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1884522621489869162

A Broken Promise

Shylily said I broke “an important promise”, and on stream said Numi “received a million empty promises” from me.

I never promised Numi I’d perform at her show, or that I’d be there. Red didn’t do so on my behalf either. I’ve shown all of the messages about the concert. Numi said that it was okay if I didn’t perform, and okay if I didn’t go before either of my decisions were made.

1/10/2025

Shifting Blame

Shylily said I blamed her for my decision not to go to Numi’s concert, and I “(used her) as part of an excuse as to why (I) had to let (my) friend down.”

I didn’t blame Shylily, and I didn’t lie to Numi. My reason was always primarily my part ownership promotion with Gamer Supps, and the responsibility I felt to be there for VCard’s launch. While the collab was part of it, it was never the main reason, and I likely would’ve made the same decision if there wasn’t a collab planned.

1/29/2025

“Sinder wasn’t at the concert”

Bao told her audience on 4/27/2025 that I didn’t go to Numi’s concert.

Shylily also implied I wasn’t there in her reply to my apology, and then said on stream “She wasn’t sorry because she fucked over her friend’s opportunity on a day that she said she’ll be there.”

But I was there. I told Shylily I was going to Numi’s concert in our dms immediately after our VCard collab on February 1st.

2/1/2025

On Bao’s stream when she originally talked about Numi’s concert, she said I was there herself.

https://youtu.be/ZfP3zmvQaYg?t=840

I was on Numi’s stream with Bao and Numi in her hotel room the next morning on February 2nd. Here’s a clip of that stream where we’re talking about the concert.

https://youtu.be/MuM38rSR39c?t=168

And here’s a clip of Vienna talking about me being “literally in front of (her)” at the concert.

https://youtu.be/Wk3qRYJCGF4?t=996

If that’s not enough, here’s some screenshots of the videos Red took at Numi’s concert in NYC on February 1st:

You can see that these pictures look just like the image of the concert in Numi’s own tweet, including the stage lights, lightsticks in the crowd, and the outfit she was wearing.

2/1/2025

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1886099414160224489

Numi’s Stream on 4/28/2025

The main thing I want to look at from Numi’s stream is her retelling of what happened between us leading up to her concert on 2/1/2025. Below is the full transcript of everything she said about it so you can see it in full context. I’ll be breaking down the bolded parts underneath that.

One thing that needs to be clarified is that Numi had two concerts at the start of the year about a week apart from each other. She had one in LA on January 26th, and one in NYC on February 1st. I was only ever intended to perform at her show in NYC. In what she said below, it sounds like she refers to both of them at different points, but never clarifies which show she’s talking about.

https://beacons.ai/numitickets

4/28/2025

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s1DqpwLJVJ0&ab_channel=NumiClips-FanChannel

15:32 - 26:35 https://youtu.be/s1DqpwLJVJ0?t=1047

“I’m somebody that I feel if there is an issue, I want to talk about it. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s something that I always want to do. And there was something that happened between us a couple months ago that I had talked to her about for months that she agreed to and was super excited about. But any other things that I heard about were not from herself, but from Red. Sorry, I’m just trying to figure out if I want to- I don’t want to bring more onto it. I don’t want to make it worse, you know, I don’t want to. But I know that it was brought up, and I want to add clarification. I think people can connect the dots on what happened, if you guys are a Noomba, and you were going to a concert, you probably were able to fill in the blanks with what happened. I was not upset about the fact that she couldn’t perform. Because a lot of the things that come with performing take a lot of, you know, courage to get out on stage and it’s not something that’s for everyone, especially if you’re a vtuber who’s used to being behind a screen. My issue was never with that. My issue was the fact that I never knew how she was feeling. Anything that I was told was from Red. I just had a bunch of different reasons for why potentially they weren’t going to be able to do it. It was very close to the date, a week and a half before, when I got told about that. And I think the thing that sucks the most about it was because from her perspective, she was talking about how excited she was and then it was that same day from him that he said they’re not going to do it anymore. I have my music friend Holmes who spent, you know, dozens of hours working on the set list for, you know, me and office drummer to perform, and we put a lot of time and effort into putting this together, and I asked every single month for months and wasn’t told about it until it was at a point where we literally couldn’t find a replacement. And even after that, I still didn’t hear anything about how she actually felt. I was super sad, obviously. Bao, even though she wasn’t doing good, immediately said she would fly to New York with me and do the concert with me. And she didn’t have to, but she did. And I think it’s been said many times that she’s my best friend, but she saw me in a state like that and even though she was hurting, she put all of that aside just to be there for me, and to be there for me when Sinder couldn’t even tell me herself how she felt. I feel so mad thinking about how she did that for me and to save her for not being able to go. And to find out that she felt that way about my best friend who has never given me any reason to not think of her as one of the best people I’ve ever met now. And I talked to her about how I felt and- I told Bao how I felt, and I didn’t really know what to do and I said like I just want to hear it from her. I just wanted to hear how she felt. I would forgive it. I just wanted to know how she was feeling through all of this, and not through somebody else. And I said if she does come up to me and tell me that it’s any other reason than you know stage fright, anxiety, worries, I would not be happy. And I get a message from her a couple days after my concert saying that she couldn’t go because she felt responsibility as- I said that the number one thing that I didn’t want to hear was if she talked to me if she put business above her friends. And I would have literally accepted anything else. But the reason that she gave me was putting business above me over her new position and how she felt obligated to do this stream that she said she had to do. I said, “Yeah, uh, go for it. Yeah go for it.” I think at that point that’s when I kind of felt like my view started to crumble a little bit. I think that just really sucked and I didn’t reply because at that point I was on a ski trip with my friends who flew from different countries to watch me perform. I came back home and I had an amazing dinner and introduced my family to all of my friends who flew in. And I just didn’t want to think about somebody who would put business over me, you know. And then afterwards, I didn’t- After I didn’t reply, sent a message asking, saying maybe they can make it after all, and then getting a message from Red saying she felt really guilty she couldn’t go and we want to make it so that we can be there for you. And I just think that’s what really caused me to want to say something and I did, and I messaged Sinder and expressed my disappointment and she apologized and told me all of the reasons that she should have said instead of bringing up the business. I forgave her, but I saw that she brought up a collab that she said she couldn’t miss, and I didn’t believe that because if there’s one person outside of Bao that I know would not put business over me, it’s Lily. And I found out that I was lied to and that this was something that could have definitely been changed and didn’t have to be on the day of a concert. So, yeah, I think after that I felt like a lot of trust was broken and I would rather, you know, I just wanted to move on from that, but I couldn’t see her the same exact way after that. And like I said, there’s so many things that could have been said, but she didn’t until I asked her what I wanted, after I just asked for her own opinions and her own feelings. And I do sit here- I sat wondering that if I didn’t say anything, would she have even said anything at all? And it just feels- I don’t know. I said, I hope you don’t turn into somebody that will always prioritize the business over the people who care about you, and I guess that’s also why I was shocked to see everything. But also it made sense because of what I saw. I just feel so fucking shit about it because these are just all things that- with everything, could have been prevented just by talking to people. Like just, it’s all so self inflicted-”

“I’m somebody that I feel if there is an issue, I want to talk about it. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s something that I always want to do. And there was something that happened between us a couple months ago that I had talked to her about for months that she agreed to and was super excited about. But any other things that I heard about were not from herself, but from Red.”

Numi’s first and only message to me about her concert was on 11/25/2024, where she invited me to go, and didn’t say anything about performing. This was about two months before her show in NYC.

11/25/2024 - 11/26/2024

She had messaged Red on 9/1/2024 about me either performing or going to her show, but this never went anywhere and she was never given an answer.

9/1/2024

Her next message about the concert was to Red a month later on 12/26/2024 to start planning things. She did not message me about it. This was about 5 weeks before her show in NYC.

12/26/2024

“My issue was the fact that I never knew how she was feeling. Anything that I was told was from Red.”

I agree that I should’ve talked to Numi much sooner than I did, and been open with her from the start. It was wrong of me to let Red communicate my feelings for me. Numi never messaged me about the show, or how I was feeling about it, only Red. She never told the public that she went to Red in their dms for communication about this from the start.

“I just had a bunch of different reasons for why potentially they weren’t going to be able to do it. It was very close to the date, a week and a half before, when I got told about that.”

Red messaged Numi about why I might not perform over three weeks, twenty two days, before the concert in NYC, on 1/10/2025.

1/10/2025

“And I think the thing that sucks the most about it was because from her perspective, she was talking about how excited she was and then it was that same day from him that he said they’re not going to do it anymore.”

On the same day as Red’s messages to Numi above, I messaged Numi about the matching shirts she was making for us. I was excited about wearing them to the concert or during our collab in the hotel together and said nothing about my performance. I understand why this was confusing in contrast to what Red said to her earlier that day.

1/10/2025

Three days later is when Red told Numi I wasn’t going to perform. This was 19 days before the concert in NYC. When Numi said “a week and a half before”, I can only assume she was talking about the date of her LA concert, which I wasn’t performing at, but even that was a day under two weeks away.

1/13/2025

“I have my music friend Holmes who spent, you know, dozens of hours working on the set list for, you know, me and office drummer to perform, and we put a lot of time and effort into putting this together, and I asked every single month for months and wasn’t told about it until it was at a point where we literally couldn’t find a replacement.”

Numi told Red in December that they already had a set list made, with an opening for me to perform one of my own songs if I wanted to. If there were any songs already planned in the setlist for me to perform, it was never communicated to Red or I.

12/26/2024

I don’t know what Numi means by “I asked every single month for months and wasn’t told about it until it was at a point where we literally couldn’t find a replacement.”

Numi’s message above to Red was the one time she asked either of us about my performance in the concert, and the only time she messaged either of us first about planning it in general. She did not ask either of us “every single month for months” when this one message from her was 5 weeks before her concert.

On stream she said they “literally couldn’t find a replacement” for me, but from her messages to Red, it sounded like she didn’t need a replacement guest. It was her show, she had a setlist made, and as far as I ever knew, it didn’t include me at the time I pulled out. She told Red three days before he canceled that she never announced me as a guest, and that I shouldn’t feel pressured to perform, or even go at all.

1/10/2025

“…(Bao) put all of that aside just to be there for me, and to be there for me when Sinder couldn’t even tell me herself how she felt. I feel so mad thinking about how she did that for me and to save her for not being able to go. And to find out that she felt that way about my best friend who has never given me any reason to not think of her as one of the best people I’ve ever met now. And I talked to her about how I felt and- I told Bao how I felt, and I didn’t really know what to do and I said like I just want to hear it from her.”

When Numi said Bao “(saved me) for not being able to go”, it sounds like I didn’t go to her concert at all when I actually did. I did not feel the way she thinks I did about Bao as explained in her section of this document, and she was an infinitely better friend than I was in this situation.

Numi said she told Bao about how she felt about me not performing, but never confronted me about it. At the start of this retelling, Numi said “I’m somebody that I feel if there is an issue, I want to talk about it. It’s uncomfortable, but it’s something that I always want to do.” I agree, I should’ve talked to Numi, but she made it seem like it wasn’t a problem for me not to perform to Red. If it really was an issue like she’s saying, she never messaged me either.

“I just wanted to know how she was feeling through all of this, and not through somebody else. And I said if she does come up to me and tell me that it’s any other reason than you know stage fright, anxiety, worries, I would not be happy. And I get a message from her a couple days after my concert saying that she couldn’t go because she felt responsibility as- … But the reason that she gave me was putting business above me over her new position and how she felt obligated to do this stream that she said she had to do. I said, “Yeah, uh, go for it. Yeah go for it.””

Again, Numi doesn’t specify what concert she’s talking about here. I messaged her the night after her concert in LA, not after the show I was supposed to perform at in NYC.

1/27/2025

This was my reasoning for not going to her show, not about not performing. Numi, just like Shylily, is mixing up these two separate things into one. I did put my career over her, and that was wrong of me. The stage fright, anxiety, and worries were all true as to why I didn’t perform, and that decision was made two weeks before this one. I did not, anywhere here, tell Numi I “felt obligated to do this stream that she said she had to do.”, like she said, and she didn’t reply telling me to “go for it.” My collab with Shylily wasn’t even scheduled at the time my performance was canceled on 1/13/2025, and wasn’t my reason for choosing not to go to her show later on.

“After I didn’t reply, sent a message asking, saying maybe they can make it after all, and then getting a message from Red saying she felt really guilty she couldn’t go and we want to make it so that we can be there for you. And I just think that’s what really caused me to want to say something and I did, and I messaged Sinder and expressed my disappointment and she apologized and told me all of the reasons that she should have said instead of bringing up the business.”

The night I sent my first message to Numi, I did feel guilty about it, but it was Red who told her that when it should’ve been me. Here, Numi again confuses the two different reasons for not performing and not going to her show.

1/28/2025

1/29/2025

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1884522621489869162

“I forgave her, but I saw that she brought up a collab that she said she couldn’t miss, and I didn’t believe that because if there’s one person outside of Bao that I know would not put business over me, it’s Lily. And I found out that I was lied to and that this was something that could have definitely been changed and didn’t have to be on the day of a concert.”

Where did I say that? Where did I lie to Numi and say that? What I did say is that I could reschedule the collab to make my mistake up to her.

1/27/2025

1/29/2025

I believe Shylily convinced Numi to see things her way and made her believe my intentions were to hurt, sabotage, and lie to her, the same way she “convinced” Nano to believe Red was lying and manipulating her.

“I sat wondering that if I didn’t say anything, would she have even said anything at all? And it just feels- I don’t know. I said, I hope you don’t turn into somebody that will always prioritize the business over the people who care about you.”

No, I wouldn’t have said anything. I would’ve kept my mistake to myself and hoped Numi didn’t hate me because of it. I could not open up about how I felt. It was this conversation with Numi that made me take steps to change the way I’ve been so closed off to people, and made me realize I can’t keep holding everything in. I wasn’t going to put business over a friend in a situation like this again, and wanted to be absolutely sure I was there for her at her next show.

3/21/2025

Numi, Bao, and Shyily couldn’t have been misinformed on what happened with Numi’s concert. They knew what happened, what I said, and that I was at the show. I’m choosing to believe that Numi and Bao didn’t intentionally lie about the concert. Emotions were high and maybe they were speaking from feelings rather than fact, but the story told to the public wasn’t true, and no evidence of what happened was shown.

Another thing I want to address is what Numi said about Bao and Tricky being isolated.

I’ve already conceded Bao was isolated due to my actions and apologized in her section of this document, and I apologized to Tricky in the accountability section for leaving her behind that day in Japan. But Tricky was not isolated by me or Red. I was doing things all the time with her online, and with Boss Rush, and Red and I were almost always with Tricky during every trip we were on together when no one else was. All the time we spent around Tricky made her one of our closest friends. Red and I have done more for her than anyone else. Tricky confided in us about all the times she felt hurt by others when traveling. But Tricky, like myself, has always wanted to keep the peace between everyone instead of bringing things like that up.

——————————

Nanoless’ Lies Speculation

Throughout this document, I’ve been basing my argument on the assumption that Nano didn’t share the full story of what happened between her and Red to Shylily, my friends, and the public, and instead lied to “save her ass”, as Shylily would say. Why? Here is what that led me to believe this was the case.

Nano had Shylily on her side from the start because she was the one who told Nano she was being manipulated. No matter the story she told or little evidence she showed, Shylily would back Nano up to my friends.

Nano couldn’t go to Bao herself about what she showed Shylily because she would’ve had to show the full context of Bao’s model being canceled to her. Nano had Shylily contact Bao so she could explain things and vouch for her story. Nano also wasn’t going to show Shylily what she said about her best friend Bao.

The exclusivity deal between Red and Nano had nothing tangible happen to anyone other than Nano as a result of it, including Bao’s model “being canceled”, something Bao never hinted at knowing. Nano could’ve lied about it never being agreed to without ever showing the full dms, just like it’s lied about never happening in her document that Shylily presumably wrote for her.

Nano blamed all of her past model cancellations on us under the excuse of years of manipulation that Shylily gave her. All of my friends, including Shylily, were all saying that all of this was happening “over years” and “going on for so long” when nothing was. They all used that timeline to support their belief that there was no way I didn’t know about the few things Red actually did without telling me. On her stream when talking about making her decision to make everything public, Bao said, “And I know that for so many people to be affected that it was the right decision to do.” If my friends had the full story, they would’ve known nothing was happening over years, Nano wasn’t manipulated, and she was guilty of “affecting so many people” with her own cancellations.

The decision to make things public was left up to Bao, and if she didn’t say something “no one else (would).” Even though all of the alleged evidence of wrongdoing was in Nano’s dms, who claimed she was the victim of abuse and manipulation and sabotage of other vtubers for years, she wasn’t going to make a statement on her own.

Red asking Nano not to work with Spite wasn’t shown in her document, even with other messages about Spite being included. Why? You’d think it’d support her story of sabotaging other creators. I believe it wasn’t shown in her document, or to my friends at all, because Red didn’t manipulate Nano to do it. Red asked her, and Nano gladly and willingly agreed with him. The same way she didn’t show her gladly and willingly agreeing to the exclusivity deal. She wasn’t manipulated and her story would fall apart.

Nano replied to Silvervale’s document saying “I literally can’t believe this”, as if she didn’t know exactly how and why Silvervale’s model was really canceled. If my friends had seen everything, they would’ve known Nano was guilty of doing this herself.

Bao’s document doesn’t crop out Nano’s message calling her exclusivity deal with Red fair. If Bao knew everything that happened and was just trying to lie to protect Nano, this message would’ve been cropped like it is in Nano’s document, which Shylily had a big hand in putting together.

My friend’s confirmation bias towards me because of Numi’s concert and Bao’s feelings of isolation gave Nano the cover to leave out details in her story and what was shown to them. They weren’t concerned with Nano’s actions, but the actions they were convinced I did by her and Shylily. I believe Shylily pushed everything along to be executed in a matter of days, and Bao was given the choice to make everything public when she wasn’t in a great headspace after surgery. There also wasn’t a lot of time to think the evidence over, and no one communicated with me to find out my side of the story.

Is it more believable that one person lied, with the support of another, to convince my friends of their story, or that almost a dozen people, all of my closest friends, all willingly agreed to and conspired to publicly lie about me in a matter of days?

When I started this document, I was under the belief that all of my friends lied about what happened to protect Nano and hurt me for Bao’s sake. As naive as it may be of me, and even though there’s evidence for that actually being what happened too, I’m choosing to believe that wasn’t the case. If I’m wrong about Nano lying to my friends, and they actually did see everything in her dms, then that means they all lied about me.

It is also plausible Nano shared more of her dms with Shylily than the rest of my friends since she helped Nano put her document together, helping her lie.

Even though she claimed she was a victim, Nano didn’t hesitate to post the most recent artwork I commissioned from her only two days after she posted her document.

4/28/2025

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1916990540807373239

Shylily’s Manipulation Speculation

Shylily was involved in everything from the start and came out of this the hero. There isn’t a lot of hard evidence of it, but due to her actions and things she’s said, I believe she may have manipulated everyone and how everything played out. She seemed to have a lot of knowledge about how a “narcissistic manipulator” would act, so let’s look at her own actions.

Shylily lied to Nano and manipulated her to believe she was being lied to and manipulated by Red about the things he was saying when she wasn’t.

Shylily most likely wrote Nano’s document for her. She used Nano’s information to tell whatever story she wanted, writing lie after lie, and then had it posted as if she had nothing to do with it.

On her stream, Shylily said she was afraid of how I’d manipulate my way out of things after the documents were posted. With that, it’s possible Shylily could’ve been the one to instruct Nano to separate herself from Red and I due to the “threat of being further manipulated”, being why Nano cut contact with us through Akira. If Shylily told my friends the same thing, then it’d support why no one ever reached out to talk to me.

Shylily was the one to back up Nano’s story and false claims of manipulation to Bao and the rest of my friends with the limited screenshots Nano gave them as proof.

Shylily convinced Numi I lied to her in our private conversation about her concert and blamed the things I did on Shylily. Shylily also could’ve used this event to justify to my friends why they shouldn’t talk to me. On stream she said “they” tried talking to me “once”, in reference to this to explain why they didn’t talk to me this time.

Shylily was the one who saw me as greedy and jealous, and I believe she pushed those ideas to my friends and convinced them those were my motives behind their claims.

Shylily’s reply to my apology starts with manipulating the public to distrust everything I wrote, and the rest is filled with lies to turn everyone against me.

On stream, Shylily basically told her chat that they’re stupid if they don’t blindly agree with her and her retelling of events, and that I’m the narcissistic manipulator.

This started because Shylily lied to and manipulated Nano. My friends, and the public, wouldn’t have had any reason to distrust anything Shylily said, and they had other reasons to jump to conclusions too. Shylily didn’t like me for her own reasons and wanted to hurt me because of what was said about Bao in Nano’s dms with Red. She brought everyone together and manipulated things along to turn everyone against me, then admitted on stream to all of the “slander” Red told Nano.

The Reward for Lying Speculation

After lying about our years of working together, Nano was rewarded with over 50,000 followers on Twitter, a Waifu Cup with Gamer Supps, a Makeship plushie, everyone in the world wanting to work with her, the support and praise of the biggest vtubers out there, and endless sympathy for everything she “endured” while working with me.

8/28/2025

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1961130874944040995

8/29/2025

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1961507420334608792

Shylily not only replaced me in my own friend group, but as the hero of the story, she gained the biggest and most consistent growth in her viewership after canceling me out of everyone involved.

https://twitchtracker.com/shylily/statistics

I’m the greedy one, but Shylily didn’t miss the opportunity to capitalize on her new hero status a week after she tore me apart on her stream and drop her limited edition Blo’Hole Blast.

5/5/2025 https://x.com/shylilytwitch/status/1919480399379759303

Nano and Shylily lied to each other, then lied together, each for their own reasons. Nano to avoid any accountability for her actions and stay in the good graces of Shylily and friends, and Shylily to get revenge for Bao and take out someone she didn’t like, and admittedly never did. They both gained the most out of doing this, and possibly never knew they lied to each other’s faces for their own ends.

Now, Shylily may have replaced me as Nano’s “new Sinder.” Judging by what they’re actively working on together, they couldn’t have made my point for me any better.

9/2/2025 https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2556405778?filter=archives&sort=time

——————————

A Skeb with Shylily

There’s one last thing I want to show to really cover all of my bases. I didn’t know where else to put it so I’ve added it here. I asked Shylily if I could get a skeb of us together. After it was delivered, I intentionally waited about three weeks to send it to her so I could post it closer to my original vtuber debut date that I was preparing for a year and a half.

1/25/2022 - I messaged Shylily about getting a skeb together in January. This was our first time talking privately, but we were interacting on Twitter back and forth for a couple weeks before this.

One of the first things Shylily ever privately said to me was that our themes together reminded her of Groudon and Kyogre. I thought it was pretty cringe of her to say that, as if she was some kind of box legendary in a skeb she wasn’t even helping pay for.

Even though she made this comparison, it’s not like she’d ever portray herself in a Groudon and Kyogre-esque fight sequence against a fire themed enemy where she comes out as the hero and saves her friends, especially not just months after she took pleasure in and had a major role in canceling me.

https://youtu.be/DBPZ12EcVvU?si=32jIQj9jGzt-DfyK

I know how long a project like this takes to complete, and even though I’m sure Shylily had a story she wanted to tell, someone else was credited with writing this lore video. I just find it ironic that it happened.

The skeb was delivered at the end of May, on 5/25/2022.

6/19/2022 - I sent Shylily the completed artwork on the 19th, and posted it on 6/23/2022, two days before my debut.

6/23/2022 - By the time this art was posted, it had been just shy of six months since the skeb was placed.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1539954886229598210

——————————

My Skeb Page:

Since I just talked about the skeb with Shylily, I might as well address this too. For years the skebs I had gotten with people have been held against me, as if I were just using the people I got them with for clout. Shylily’s skeb was the only one that I held off on giving her to post right before my debut, but that wasn’t my intention when it was ordered that January.

I was ordering skeb artwork from January 2021 to January 2023, and about three quarters of my skebs were ordered before my original debut on 6/25/2022. Before I was an actual vtuber with a model, I got skebs for fun, to show thanks to people, to grow existing friendships, and to have art to post on Twitter while I waited for my debut to be ready.

Every vtuber I had gotten a skeb together with was either with someone I was actively working with, had already worked with, or was someone who I was already friends with, or acquainted with, at the time I ordered them. I asked everyone for their permission to get one beforehand, except for the few cases it was a surprise meant to be a gift for someone. As far as I remember and can tell by my financial files, I paid for all of these myself, including Shylily’s, and I never expected anyone to chip in.

This is every skeb I ordered, with about half of them being of myself. The censored skebs below are NSFW. There are two skebs with Tricky and Aruuu that didn’t show up on this page that I’ve shown below this instead.

https://skeb.jp/@SinderVTuber

——————————

In Conclusion

In Bao’s section, Red explained his grudge against Bao that led to his and Nano’s exclusivity deal.

Does it matter explaining why Red held things against Bao that he told Nano about, or explaining that I only treated Bao differently because of Red’s feelings towards her? No. But since this was all made public, it had to be explained. What both of us did was wrong, and we should’ve addressed the problem when we could’ve.

But it matters how Red got to his conclusion about Bao.

Red couldn’t see the whole situation around Bao and Sac any other way. After Sac went exclusive, Red pieced together every action he experienced and noticed from Bao to corroborate a story, based on assumptions, and a pattern of behavior that made perfect sense to him. He ignored any of the good things Bao had done, now thinking she was being fake about everything. He didn’t contact Bao about any of this at all to verify his theory. He was angry at her and already made up his mind about what she’d done, and thought she’d lie about it anyway. Red eventually tried to get even with her by making a deal with Nano to take the opportunity of working with her away from Bao. Once the truth came out, he turned out to be wrong.

What Red did was:

Pieced together an assumed story about someone from observations and experiences with them after something negative happened regarding them, adding up to a supposed pattern of behavior.

Focused solely on all of the negative things that happened with that person that fit the confirmation bias towards them, never considering any of the positives, which all became part of the conspiracy.

Never contacted the person to find out the truth of this story due to being angry at them for what was already determined happened, and thinking they’d lie their way out of accountability.

Took retaliatory action against that person in response to what it was assumed they did.

The story about the person turned out to be wrong to begin with.

Well, couldn’t Bao and my friends have done the same thing?

They heard what Nano and Shylily were telling them, saw select screenshots of Red’s messages with Nano, and assumed there couldn’t be any other way but me knowing and agreeing with everything Red said and did. They used their combined experiences with us to back up their theory, were convinced of my motives by someone other than myself, and corroborated a pattern of behavior. No matter what I’d done for them or what we did together in the past, everything was now seen as an act to use or betray them. None of them contacted me at all to verify their claims and instead jumped to conclusions. They were mad at me for what they were already convinced I did, and were probably told I’d manipulate my way out of it. Then they took action against me that they thought I deserved in return by writing and posting their documents to the public.

My friends made their decisions with the information they were given. They were quick to assume that everything Red said were my shared thoughts, but they weren’t. My friends never saw Red and I argue, didn’t know we lived together, never knew I cheated on Red, and couldn’t have known how our relationship was beyond what they saw during the half a dozen times we traveled every year. They decided that this was the culmination of some long series of wrongs I’ve committed against them to further myself. I am not a perfect person by any means, but to claim that everything I’ve ever done with my friends, for them, shared with them, felt with them, was all fake is wrong and unbelievable. Where are any of the screenshots of me badmouthing, backstabbing, or sabotaging them? They were not rungs on a ladder for me to surpass. I have never had real friends until I found them.

They used their status in the community as some of the biggest vtubers around, ambushing me in the middle of the night, to publicly out the person they were falsely convinced was some kind of evil mastermind. They all did this together, so no one was going to question their group's corroborated story. It was okay to ruin me and ignore our history together because they were convinced they were doing it for the sake of friendship. If you asked questions, or asked for more evidence, you were banned, blocked, and silenced, because how dare you question those grieving in this difficult time. The public wouldn’t have known any better unless I gave the full context of what really happened in this document, rather than what was vaguely told to them through recollection and hurt feelings.

Bao lost out on a vtuber model with Nanoless, the artist who wanted to cancel it in the first place, and who convinced her it was my fault.

I decided to pull out of my unplanned performance in Numi’s concert because of my own anxieties, and I was a bad friend when I made the choice initially not to be there for her.

I lost my friends, my career, countless opportunities, and my reputation to millions of people has been ruined, permanently. My name has been dragged through the dirt and has become an insult synonymous with insincerity and betrayal. I’m avoided being spoken of like I’m vtuber Voldemort now, and some people are pretending like I never existed.

These things are not equal. The damage my friends have inadvertently caused to me is irreparable and immeasurable, all over conjecture, lies they were fed, things I never knew happened, and opinions I did not agree with. Whether they knew the truth or not, they all perpetuated lies about me to the public and my life has been forever altered because of it.

Despite it all, I still forgive them.

Numi said on her stream that “talking about things is always the better option.” The pivotal thing my friends didn’t do was talk to me or Red about anything, never hearing what we had to say about Nano’s and Shylily’s claims. Even Bao on her stream was left questioning the motive behind things.

Everything that happened circles back to poor communication, from everyone.

Both Red and I didn’t communicate with Bao about his problems with her in December 2024.

I didn’t communicate with Numi about performing in her concert, and how I felt about it before I canceled on her.

If there were ever really any problems Nano had with us, she never communicated it.

Numi didn’t communicate with me about her concert, only trying to plan things through Red, and confided in Bao about how she felt about me canceling.

Bao didn’t communicate with me about her feelings of isolation, only expressing those feelings to Numi privately.

Shylily didn’t communicate with me about whatever problem she had with me and resorted to petty actions instead.

No one communicated with me or Red before choosing to make everything public, ending in my cancellation.

—————————————————

In Conclusion: Nanoless

I don’t think Nano’s actions didn’t start out malicious. She wanted to find out if what Red said was true, and Shylily used that against me. I do not believe Nano ever shared the full, true story of what happened between her, Red, and I with my friends, and instead chose to protect herself and lie about everything. It’s hard to believe Nano put her own document together, and it’s heavily evidenced that Shylily did. Nano sat back and let Shylily take the wheel for her after knowingly lying about what happened between us. When you consider that Nano’s and Bao’s documents were planned together and posted simultaneously, it was on purpose to put “my betrayal” of my friend first and foremost, even though Nano said she didn’t care about Bao.

After viewing the entirety of Red’s dms with Nano and having the full context of their conversations, It’s very clear that Nano’s entire document was maliciously and deceptively written to push a false narrative to the public on which everyone else’s claims could be based on, while using emotionally triggering language in its accusations throughout. With the biggest vtuber, Shylily, supporting her, no one would question Nano’s claims, even my friends. When put under scrutiny, there are so many details purposely left out, giving the freedom to tell whatever story they wanted that the dms that were shown vaguely supported. Screenshots from conversations over two years presented out of order, missing context, and mixed and matched to fit a narrative. Even going as far as to boldly edit a screenshot to remove a message. Claims were made without evidence, and straight up lies were told, meant to be believed by the public who wouldn’t know any better. Some of the claims in Nano’s document don’t even match the screenshots provided as evidence. It’s like no one actually read the screenshots provided and either just read what was written, or just listened to the large voices telling everyone what they said happened. This document was falsely written to paint Nano as a victim who had no agency in her choices without showing any of her guilt, and Red and I as evil, manipulative people who only wanted to use Nano for our own gain, sabotaging every project she’s ever canceled, and cherry picking exactly what needed to be shown to make that case. Everyone was told that everything in Red’s messages “had to be” my thoughts and feelings as well for all the blame to be put onto me, as if he isn’t his own person. Only three total screenshots of my own words from two conversations over a year apart from each other were shown. The only manipulation here was to the evidence in Nano's document, and to the public’s perception of me.

Neither of us sabotaged any vtuber’s projects with Nano. As you’ve seen from our messages, we’ve always praised Nano for the work she did with others. I’ve always supported my model sisters, and I platformed them myself on my stream, even if I could also understand the reasoning behind Red saying “more Nano models means they’re less special.”

In the case of the exclusivity deal in January 2025, Red asked Nano not to work with Bao, Cotton, or Silvervale. Nano said she had a model planned with Bao that he didn’t know about before, and Bao probably didn’t know about it either. Nano offered to cancel Bao’s model in exchange for payment of her own model’s rigging. They negotiated and made a deal that was never shown to the public. To argue that Nano was manipulated in any way is crazy. Nano was just as complicit in their deal as Red was. She had no problem asking him about and talking about the drama around Bao that her document claimed she wanted nothing to do with, and then offered to cancel Bao’s model herself. I had nothing to do with this happening and had no knowledge of it until the documents were posted. Red and Nano are the only two people that could’ve told me about this, and neither of them did. There’s nothing to show for it because it didn’t happen. I can’t prove a negative.

Nano lied and pushed all of her agency of her own actions onto Red, then Shylily and my friends took Red’s agency away from him and his actions, and then blamed everything either one of them did on me. Nano used us as a scapegoat for her canceling Bao’s model when she was the one who wanted to do it in the first place. She canceled Silvervale’s and Cotton’s models in November of 2023 and blamed it on us. And when she said she was going to take Silver’s model back, she didn’t, because she was “healthier and less stressed.” She canceled 7 models in September of 2024, avoiding accountability for herself and implying to those clients that it wasn’t her fault, it was my fault. I don’t know if the 10 canceled projects talked about in Red’s dms with Nano was everything she ever canceled, or everything she blamed us for with her document, but it’s all he ever knew about. Nano was clearly capable of thinking for herself and was always in control of her own business decisions. She repeatedly overextended herself and overbooked too many projects that she couldn’t handle, again and again. If Nano was able to cancel on some of the biggest vtubers out there, bigger than me, she could’ve chosen to cancel plans with us, or stopped working with me altogether if she really felt the way it says she did in her document. But not once did she. Instead, she said she “just wanted to do Sinder stuff.” We didn’t hold any power over Nano. We didn’t threaten her, we didn’t blackmail her, and we didn’t manipulate her. We were her most loyal, supportive, sympathetic, and repetitious clients who genuinely cared about her, and she knew it.

Even if Nano genuinely had anything against us the way her document explains, which she never, ever showed or expressed, she could’ve aired her grievances with us and parted ways, evidenced by our acceptance of Akira’s messages. But instead, she found herself in this situation, and as soon as it was advantageous for her to do so, she conspired to cut all contact with us, and use us as a scapegoat for her own actions under the guise of abuse after one conversation with Shylily. It didn’t matter who we were to her, just that she would’ve been caught without blaming us and using the manipulation excuse. She carved a path to the best outcome possible for herself and came out of this with more support than ever.

As stated in this artist’s now deleted tweet, Nano “removed herself from direct conversation, and used emotional language to attack and rally rather than actually caring about fixing (the problem)”

Nano has shown herself to be an entirely self serving and opportunistic person pretending to be meek whose word means nothing. Given the opportunity to further herself or gain something to her benefit, even at someone else’s expense, at the biggest vtubers’ expense, or even if it’s at the expense of people as supportive as we were to her, she’ll take it.

The public was lied to about what really happened between myself, Red, and Nano. Nano wasn’t manipulated, she wasn’t a victim, and I didn’t betray Bao or any of my other friends. Nanoless betrayed me, and in the end I was nothing to her. It really was “just business” to Nano. Red and I were her most supportive and loyal clients over 4 years, paying for her to be taught how to cut art for model rigging in the first place, giving her over $100,000 to buy her new house, building our careers side by side, and this is how she thanked us. No matter what Nano did, she will continue to be supported by the people she worked with to cancel me, and by people that want her artistic talent.

I will continue to use my art and models from Nanoless until they can be replaced.

—————————————————

In Conclusion: Shylily

I used to look up to Shylily. But now, I don’t know how anyone can.

The “L” she holds on her forehead must stand for liar, because Shylily was the first person to do so. She had her own grudges against me before this all started and “in true narcissistic fashion” she lied to and manipulated Nano to avoid accountability, turning her against me. She’s Shylily, so of course Nano was going to believe anything she said. The only thing “done” to Shylily was that Red dared to speak about what she was guilty of doing, and thought we’d have to consider her competition for her petty, unwarranted behavior towards me. She still expected her own section in my apology though, as if I had anything to apologize to her for other than not knowing she was talked about. She probably just wanted a concession from me for some narcissistic sense of victory.

Shylily wants to claim she “sucks at Discord”, and Boeska told me that Shylily “rarely uses Discord”, “only for business meetings and stuff.” I guess that part was true, because this was all “just business” to her. She had no problem using, understanding, navigating, organizing, and communicating with a dozen or more people in Discord consistently over two weeks when it came to canceling me, but for some reason didn’t “have the balls” to respond when I tried to resolve things between us. From my own experience, her “sucking at Discord” is an excuse to avoid accountability for her to not put in the time and energy to talk to people she doesn’t feel are worthy of her time, including her friends. Something I was attacked for.

I’m confident Shylily wrote Nano’s document for her, used Bao as the emotional centerpiece, and told whatever story she wanted to tell. She hid behind the scenes and kept her hands clean of involvement, staying out of the drama until it came to dunking on my tweet and making sure I’d stay down. She became the hero, defender of her friends, and turned me into the villain. Shylily projected her own actions and behavior of narcissism, manipulation, jealousy, and avoiding accountability onto me, and convinced all of my friends of it too while manipulating everyone to believe everything I’ve ever said was me lying through my teeth with “words like honey.” She threw her morals out the window, lied, and claimed I was trying to deplatform them when Shylily was the one eager to deplatform me. Shylily is deathly afraid of losing relevance, and she gladly conspired to take out the person she felt she was losing relevance to in her own passion project, and pushed my cancellation to be done as soon as Bao was out of surgery with Nano’s “career ending evidence.” No one was going to distrust Shylily’s word or side against her. Her celebrating my cancellation on her stream was justified in the eyes of the public she misled, all while admitting to the “slander” that started this.

Shylily didn’t care about accountability. She was “ready for blood”, and she got it.

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It’s very easy to lie about someone when the person being lied about is the only one who can disprove them, and everyone was manipulated to believe anything they could say in their defense couldn’t be trusted. Twist what really happened to fit a narrative, then repeat it over and over again until it’s believed to be fact.

“Sinder took no accountability!”

“Sinder knew everything!”

“Sinder betrayed her friends!”

“It’s just business!”

And no matter how many times they claimed “Sinder did this” and “Sinder did that”, it doesn’t make any of Red’s actions my actions. Any evidence shown of my actual involvement was near nonexistent. Just because they corroborated their stories and told them loudly and emotionally doesn’t make them true. If you need to present your evidence dishonestly, out of order, out of context, even doctoring it, and then make claims that the evidence doesn’t even show, then maybe that evidence isn’t reliable, and the real story is different from the story being told.

This was a witch hunt, and everyone involved just wanted to move on from it as soon as I was gone.

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Silvervale

Silvervale’s document for reference: I am "Vtuber1"

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 6:18 PM EST

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1916255691578449999

Silvervale and I have never been friends.

There were three reasons I tried to make some kind of connection with her throughout the years.

I have been endlessly compared to and harassed about my similarities to Silvervale that ate at my insecurities ever since I started my vtubing career. These comments weren’t true, but I believed Silvervale bought into them and disliked me for it. If Silvervale and I could clear things up, be on good terms, and to be able to publicly acknowledge each other, it would’ve helped to end the harassment both of us were getting for so long.

Any creative or business endeavors Silvervale and I did together could’ve been very successful and benefited us both. I’ve gotten countless requests from fans asking for this, Red had lots of ideas of potential things we could’ve done, and I was always open to working together with her.

I genuinely sought a friendship with someone I was repeatedly told was very similar to me in our personalities, likes, and interests.

Silvervale was never obligated to do any of these things, and I never felt that she was. I just wanted to get along. For so long I held out hope that we could talk things out, but she showed me through her own behavior how she really felt about me due to no actions of my own. My pursuit to fix things between us turned to mixed feelings, and after she repeatedly gave me reason to, I grew to resent Silvervale by the summer of 2024. The never ending harassment for “copying” her, and other circumstances around her didn’t help. In the times I confided in my friends about my experiences with Silver, they’d all agree with me and tell me their own stories about her.

It was Silvervale’s dislike of me and her actions towards me throughout the years that informed mine and Red’s opinion on Shylily’s and her feelings about me before I was canceled. Silver wouldn’t acknowledge me by name when I’d raid her, ghosted my messages for months, and got her model from Nanoless at a very suspicious time. A similarly petty pattern of behavior, without any communication.

Here are some of the things I said about Silvervale in my apology.

“I grew more and more resentful of Silver over time, between the constant belittling of myself, a controversy around my first waifu cup, and other incidents, even though she herself never interacted with me directly. And it was also that fact that made me insecure, like I wanted to know if she believed all of these things or not. It really felt as if she didn't like that I even existed in the same space.”

“Silver was completely undeserving of this treatment, and it was my own insecurities that led me to making this choice. I became unapologetically evil towards her due to no direct action of her own.”

“I was so wrong for letting everyone get in my head about all these malicious feelings. I'm so sorry for any opportunities I've taken away from you.”

I was overly apologetic because of the severity of the moment. I chose not to go into detail about any of my interactions with Silver, and even said there wasn’t any between us when there was. I felt awful about the feelings I had about her, calling myself “unapologetically evil” when I wasn’t. I did not sabotage Silvervale. I agreed to ask Nano not to work with her on models anymore, where Silver lost nothing, and I apologized for the opportunities I took from her, when there really wasn’t any. In doing so, I gave Silvervale the ability to fill in the gaps in the story however she wanted. Despite apologizing to her for evils far beyond what I’ve ever actually done, it didn’t stop Silvervale from confidently lying about me when she finally had the chance.

Silver said that she wanted her community to be “fully informed about everything”, so below is my full experience with and around Silvervale, ending with a breakdown of her document, and a showcase of all of the lies she told on her stream.

Throughout the start of the timeline, I’ll place the screenshots of Red’s retelling of events to Nano from May 2023 to show that he wasn’t lying to her. They’re highlighted with a blue border like his commentary. That conversation is also included below, just like it was in Nano’s section of this document.

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Everything is in chronological order, and all dates and times are in EST.

I’ve censored any private information or names of people who aren’t directly involved.

Screenshots that include messages that were in any of the documents are highlighted with a red border.

Screenshots that are directly of or taken from another document are highlighted with an orange border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

Quotes from my apology are highlighted in gray .

Red’s own comments on anything being presented are labeled and highlighted in blue .

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Accusations of Copying Silvervale

I have been accused, compared, and harassed for years by people thinking I copied everything about Silvervale, including my personality, voice, and even my laugh. I was never going to address this publicly, but I’m taking this opportunity to lay everything out and show that I didn’t copy her.

A quote from my apology:

“Since I started streaming I have been ruthlessly compared to Silvervale, being called the discount version of her. I was accused of copying her design, copying her personality, even copying her laugh of all things. And there was a large number of people who were diehard believers in the fact that I "stole" all of these attributes maliciously for my own gain, citing the art I posted of us together calling her an "inspiration", when in reality this was referring to the decision to become a hellhound.”

Before November of 2020, what I knew about Silvervale was as much as I knew about the only other western vtubers at the time. Almost nothing. I knew who she was but I didn’t watch her content. It was only after VShojo debuted and Silver rebranded did I start following her.

11/15/2020 - My original vtuber concept based on my ASMR persona was finished, and I was waiting to work with the artist Red and I contacted to design my character in December. I was originally going to be a cherry blossom wolf girl.

11/24/2020 - VShojo was announced. This was Silvervale’s original design and description on VShojo’s website: https://web.archive.org/web/20201124174007/https://www.vshojo.com/

The same day, Red emailed the artist that was designing my character that we’re changing our plans.

Red references Silver’s design above in his message. In my apology I said:

“The only time Silvervale was mentioned in the original designing of my character was when we explained why we were pivoting to something else, and there were no references of her character involved.”

Silvervale had her redebut stream to reveal her new model and sakura wolf design later that same night on 11/24/2020:

https://x.com/VShojo/status/1331364360007028738

https://youtu.be/dor-lBUwt5k

12/8/2020 - The details for Sinder’s character were finished.

Name:
The original name we had in mind was Ember, but thought it was too generic. Red came up with the name Sinder by combining sin with cinder. Sin relating to Hell, and cinder to fire, which made Sinder the Hellhound, and I liked the wordplay aspect of it. It had nothing to do with it sounding like Silver. The name Embers was going to be reused for my fanbase, but we scrapped it and didn’t have a fan name until much later.

Personality:

You can see from my original character sheet from 11/15/2020 above, and Silver’s description on the VShojo website, that Silver and I inherently share a lot of personality traits.

Art Tag:
#sinderdoodle came from it sounding like snickerdoodle, relating to my love of sweets, but also to drawings of me. It was intended to be used for my own artwork I’ll show below too, “Sinder’s doodles.” The other idea was #Sindraw, like #drawshi, but I didn’t like the way it sounded. Our choice had nothing to do with Silver’s art tag being #DoodleVale.

Design:
Below is the document where all of the references were given to the artist to design Sinder. None of them are of Silvervale. Sinder’s bangs are based off of my hair irl.

12/16/2020 - My design was finished. I’ve never held changing my original design from a sakura wolf to a hellhound against Silver. I was thankful for it, since Sinder was a much better idea than what I had before, and it’s what led me to calling her an “inspiration” soon after this.

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Referencing Silvervale

When my character design was finished, I then needed to get stream assets. Red and I looked over all of the popular vtuber’s credits at the time to find artists we liked who we could work with. That included Silvervale’s. There’s a handful of things that I referenced from Silver throughout the years that aren’t included in this document, such as emotes and 3D models.

12/20/2020 - We liked Silver’s chibi art on her Twitch panels, and her stream alerts. Red messaged the same artist that made hers for exactly those things, citing Silver as a reference. He got to know this artist and they became our friend. They were the only artist in the vtubing space we really knew at the start of 2021, and happened to be mutual friends with Silvervale.

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Fan Art of Silvervale

After I had a character design, I had planned to draw a series of fan artwork of myself with different vtubers I liked, looked up to, or were an inspiration to me in some way, and post them using my #sinderdoodle tag. I had four planned, started three, but only ever finished one. I chose to draw Silvervale first because I thought our designs looked the best next to each other. I was going to draw Froot because she was an inspiration and reference I used for my design, and Bao because she was one of my first inspirations to get into vtubing aside from Holomyth.

In my apology I said:

“I was genuinely interested in pursuing a friendship with her, and drew fan art myself of us together.”

1/15/2021 - I posted a picture of the artwork I was working on. I drew it on paper, scanned it, then finished it on my tablet laptop.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1350185138777423875

1/31/2021 - I posted the finished art. I called Silver an inspiration because she inspired Sinder’s creation. Without her rebranding into a sakura wolf, Sinder wouldn’t exist. I used #sindervale because I thought it was a cute way to put our names together that went with the art. Me saying maybe we’d be part of the same pack was about my ambition to be part of VShojo at the time, the big, new western vtuber group.

After it was posted, Silver’s mom saw my art, liked it, retweeted it, and commented on it.

This image is from The Wayback Machine, archived from the same date, since this original tweet was deleted. I don’t know why this would even have a snapshot in the Wayback Machine at all, or why the page is in German. I had under five thousand followers at the time. The only reason I have this post’s link to even find it on the Wayback Machine is because Silvervale did, and she showed it on her stream on 4/30/2025.

https://web.archive.org/web/20210131155201/https://twitter.com/SinderVTuber/status/1355906567963631620

2/1/2021 - By the next morning, Silver’s mom had deleted her comment, unliked my tweet, and unretweeted it. Red messaged our artist mutual friend and told them what happened and asked if I did something wrong. I had no way of contacting Silver or her mom to ask them directly, so Red brought it up to them thinking they might know. They pointed out the #sindervale tag as the problem. I came from the cosplay community and I know what a ship tag is. Vtubers have art tags, meme tags, general tags, and more. I did not intend for the tag I used to come across as a ship tag with someone I haven’t even met, and it was stupid of me to not have even thought of it. I deleted the tweet right after and never used #sindervale again.

Red’s dms with the artist:

Later that day Silver messaged me directly, and I completely understood where she was coming from. I made a mistake and I was so upset with myself that this was my first interaction with her.

My dms with Silvervale:

Red’s dms with the artist after I spoke to Silver:

2/5/2021 - I reposted my artwork and rewrote part of my tweet. Silver’s fan art was the only one I ever did because I felt anxious and discouraged by how this situation played out. Besides replying to her tweets, this was my last and only interaction with Silvervale until late 2022, almost two years later. People have used the fact I called Silver an “inspiration” in this tweet as evidence for me copying her.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1357832104592162820

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Demon Design

11/16/2021 - Since some people think that my demon design was a way to copy Silver’s goddess design, and Red later made the comparison to Nano in their dms, I wanted to show the timeline for it here. This was when I first brought the idea to Nano. The idea came from seeing Froot’s evil alternate design a year earlier in December of 2020, and I knew I wanted to have a similar outfit since then.

12/2/2021 - Silvervale revealed her goddess design for the first time.

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1466590477906501639

12/13/2021 - My demon design was started.

2/27/2022 - The original, unused demon design was finished. It was later updated and made into a new model that debuted in 2023.

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My First Model Debut

6/25/2022 - I debuted my first model after over a year of trying to get one. I was finally able to use and show off my model by Nano, which was the third one she ever made, but the first one she made after I had her taught by another artist to cut art layers correctly for Live2D.

I was harassed for allegedly copying everything about Silvervale. My model was also directly compared to her original L2D model as looking too much alike, being used as proof that I must have copied her.

By Red’s account, Silvervale was lurking in my chat sometime during my debut stream while he was modding. She was gifted sub while there, but never said anything. She never followed me on Twitch, or Twitter, and never acknowledged me after.

6/30/2022 - Starting a few days after my debut, Silver started to advertise her big, brand new model being worked on.

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1542622252700602368

7/9/2022 - https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1545929303656898560

7/30/2022 - Unfortunately, her model wasn’t going to be ready for her birthday, so sometime in July she decided to get a replacement model. She asked Nanoless just weeks after my debut. Nano was not a well known model artist back then. I was her third model she ever made, and I had her trained on how to cut her art for L2D. By 7/30/2022, Nano already had Silver’s model fully drawn. Red sent me this copy pasted message from Silver in her server. I responded with “great” because we both knew that if Nano was making her a new model, I was going to be accused of copying her again.

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8/2/2022 - Silver tweeted she was going to review plushie collections on stream. I replied with my plushie collection hoping she’d see it. It was another thing we both had in common, and now that I was actually a vtuber, I was hopeful to be able to connect with her and move past the awkward fan art situation from 2021. She never did this stream. It could’ve been for any reason that she didn’t, but looking back and seeing that my reply to her was the most liked one, it would have been seen. I feel she had no reason other than not wanting to acknowledge or “platform” me in any way by going through these replies on her stream. This matched her behavior towards me going forward.

https://x.com/_silvervale_/status/1554501528395841536

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1554503521030082560

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8/12/2022 - I reposted my fan art for Silver’s birthday, and she debuted her new model from Nanoless just a month and a half after mine. Even though I debuted my model from Nano before Silver, I was still accused of copying her, and that I got a model from Nano because she did.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1558085609566126086

https://youtu.be/L3ENTzHqWdo?si=eTgbpj8npCui8ATP

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TwitchCon 2022

10/8/2022 - I tweeted a meme during TwitchCon weekend a little while before going to Silvervale’s meet and greet. I was planning to go to introduce myself to her directly, since our last personal interaction was when I first made my fan art. This was an older, inside joke between Red and I, and wasn’t a meme going around.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1578815308915408898

At one of my impromptu meet and greets during this TwitchCon, I had someone bold enough to confront me and ask me about copying Silvervale’s model and artist. I had to clarify to them that she got her model from Nano after I did.

I went to Silver’s meet and greet with Aruuu and Red. This was the first time I spoke with her directly since my dms with her on Twitter at the start of 2021. While we were waiting in line, or right after the meet and greet, Aruuu suggested the idea of a “canine collab” between us two and Silver. This is the image of us meeting Silver that Aruuu posted later that day. I did not make my own tweet about meeting Silver.

https://x.com/DeputyARUUU/status/1578889655377743872

Here was Silvervale’s reply to Aruuu’s tweet.

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1579547425991454721

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10/11/2022 - I messaged Aruuu on my way home from TwitchCon if she was actually planning to ask Silvervale about the collab together, which she did.

The screenshot of Aruuu’s dms with Silver that she sent me. She never got back to Aruuu about this. Silver said here that a collab together “would be a ton of fun.”

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10/16/2022 - Silver tweeted her own version of my meme a week after mine. Before I was retroactively accused of copying her again, I replied to her tweet with my own. This was not a meme format going around, and I don’t own this format by any means, but the fact she just so happened to do the same thing I did right after I went to her meet and greet, without following me on Twitter, and without ever acknowledging me, was very off putting.
https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1581708049030356995
https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1581732454087335936

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10/17/2022 - A mutual friend introduced Silver and I directly in a Minecraft server we were both part of while I was streaming. They chose to take me around and introduce me to lots of people, including Silver. I did not ask them to meet her. Outside of Silver’s meet and greets at TwitchCon in 2022 and 2023, this was the only time we’ve spoken verbally, and the only time we’ve interacted in a stream setting, on my stream. Silvervale was not streaming.

https://youtu.be/N9F-T4xJTR0?t=33360

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11/30/2022 - After becoming a vtuber myself, meeting her in person, being introduced by a mutual friend, and playing in the same Minecraft server for a while, another interest we had in common, and looking past the things she might’ve been doing towards me, I had built up the confidence to try reaching out to Silver again. I was able to dm her on Twitter because of my fan art situation, otherwise I would’ve had no way of contacting her. Her dms are closed to people she doesn’t follow, and I wasn’t friends with her on Discord. I refrained from messaging her for almost two years because I didn’t want it to be weird and embarrassing like our first interaction ended up being. I didn’t ask her for a collab, or try using her, or try to profit off of her. I asked her if she just wanted to hang out in Minecraft off stream to get to know each other over a game we both enjoyed. Silvervale never replied, and I never pushed or pressured her to.

This is what I said in my apology:

“I tried reaching out some time ago to try to start up a friendly conversation to change things and make things right, say hi to you at conventions, and support your endeavors, but despite all that I was still being eaten alive by my own doubts and fear or harassment. I was pressured by the community as a whole to try reaching out to collaborate since I got these messages so often comparing us, and I hoped we could work something out.”

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12/2/2022 - Two days after messaging Silver, and almost two months after TwitchCon, I thought about the collab with Silver and Aruuu and asked her if she ever heard from Silvervale about it. Aruuu never said anything about this again, and I didn’t ask about it again. It was okay with me that this never happened. Aruuu would later admit she never actually messaged Silvervale like she said below.

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Community and Mascot Name

11/11/2022 - The first time the name Pyro Pup was ever brought up was from a viewer who suggested it since I didn’t have a community name yet. I didn’t want to choose a name at that point because I didn’t have a mascot designed yet. My chat really liked the name though.

https://youtu.be/SB0PPRBpKsU?t=5400

1/26/2023 - Two months later, I revealed the finished design of my mascot and asked my chat for name suggestions. Its placeholder name was “Little friend.” One of the names suggested was Pyro Pup again, and my chat ultimately chose it.

https://youtu.be/RVAUHeoQwDw?t=3193

1/28/2023

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4/12/2023 - I messaged Nano about starting on some pose ideas for my first Waifu Cup when she was ready and available to.

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4/21/2023 - 4/22/2023 - I raided Silvervale and she didn’t acknowledge me by name. I’ve raided Silver multiple times over the years, and every time she refused to say my name when for anyone else I’ve seen, she would. After this raid, Red and I both separately messaged one of our friends about it. We confided in this friend about my situation with Silvervale and Spite at Weebcon 2023 a couple weeks before this, where they offered to try talking to Silver about me. As far as we know they never did, and these were the only messages to them about Silvervale.

58:10 https://youtu.be/TusSsp8c9TI?t=3490

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4/26/2023 - One of my friends and I had a conversation about Silvervale leaving VShojo, which led me to open up to them about my experience with her. There are gaps in the screenshots where irrelevant things were being talked about.

I also want to point out that the emote reaction to my message below about “genuine friends” wasn’t there before, and this friend deleted at least one message of theirs from an unshown part of this conversation.

When I said “somebody did that to me”, it was in reference to Spite, although she was never discussed here. Everything about Spite will be addressed in her section.

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Red: I asked Nano about when she made Silver’s first model from her because we grew suspicious of if it had anything to do with Sinder and her debut about a couple months earlier. The few things that happened with Silver by this point in time made us believe she had a problem with Sinder. Silver had worked with Nano before, but she wasn’t known for making models in summer of 2022. Nano had only done 3 models at that time, including Sinder’s. Sinder debuted on 6/25/2022, and since I was modding the chat, I saw Silvervale lurking at the start of the stream for a little while when Sinder was introducing herself. I have no proof since I didn’t think I’d ever need a screenshot of it, but I’ve been present modding in 99% of Sinder’s streams ever. Since Sinder came out with her design in 2021 she was always compared and harassed about being a copy of Silvervale. There was only one direct interaction between Silver and Sinder before her debut when she made fan art of them together. We had also been working with a mutual artist friend of Silver’s for a lot of that time, who was first drawing Sinder’s model before it fell through. Silver knew who Sinder was, and Sinder was gaining popularity right off the bat. If Silver believed Sinder was ripping her off, then upstaging her with a new model by the same artist right after her debut would be a great way to do it. After Silver’s debut in August, Sinder was harassed that she copied Silver’s model too. Being a much smaller creator than her at the time, people didn’t realize Sinder actually debuted first.

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5/5/2023 - I thanked Nano for the Waifu Cup artwork she made for me, and her scale figure was announced.

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5/9/2023 - 5/10/2023 - Red talked to Nano about the situation with my first Waifu Cup, which led to him revealing our experience with Silvervale over the past two years.

Red: I did not lie to Nano about anything I said in this conversation, and I would’ve had no reason to. Everything I said was as I genuinely thought and experienced, speaking to a friend I trusted.

Red: Nano: “DW I LOVE GOSSIPS” Nano’s always been open to talking about drama and gossip with me.

In between these screenshots, Red told Nano the story about the long process of getting my first model, but it’s not relevant to show here.

Red: I’m using “we’re” here, but Sinder had no idea this conversation was happening until I told her about it later. I was speaking for both of us without her knowledge or consent.

Red: I didn’t realize this message was cut off when these screenshots were taken.

They briefly talked about Silver leaving VShojo between these screenshots.

Red told me the gist of his conversation with Nano and the next morning I messaged her about it.

Later in our conversation, we were talking about my scale figure that was in pre production.

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Mod #1:

5/13/2023 - I had Discord and Twitch moderator applications open, and one of Silver’s mods applied. They were chosen because of their experience modding for another large vtuber. I’ll refer to them as Mod #1.

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5/12/2023 - 5/13/2023 - I asked Nano to record some voice lines for my lore video or my upcoming debut. I asked a lot of my friends to participate. A couple of the lines I gave them were in reference to the comments I got about Silvervale.

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5/15/2023 - I messaged Nano to tell her we needed to change the artwork on one side of my Waifu Cup because it was too similar to Silver’s.

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7/14/2023 and 7/21/2023 - Nano and Gamer Supps were able to work incredibly hard to get my Waifu Cup released before Silvervale’s. It was important to me to have the first cup with Nano’s art on it because of how much she meant to me, and what it meant to me to be the first one to represent her on one. I was incredibly anxious about the harassment I’d get for “copying” Silver again if mine was released right after hers with the same artist. I was worried that my drop would be overshadowed by the first full color cup too.

7/14/2023

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1679928892889415681

7/21/2023

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1682472404474273792

This is what my Waifu Cup was originally supposed to look like, with the flame heart artwork on one side. I had the same flame heart kiss animation on my model and I loved having it represented here. I was made to change it to avoid being too similar to Silvervale’s cup. Silver’s artwork was finished a long time before mine. I was at least able to use it on my desk mat, but I was still incredibly upset it wasn’t the art on my cup or shirt. This was not Silver’s fault and I never blamed her for this, but this added to my negative experiences around her.

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7/18/2023 - 7/19/2023 - Red messaged Nano about Silver asking about a model right after my demon model debut.

Red: Nano mentioned to me that more people are contacting her for models because of Sinder.

Red: We just wanted Silver to get along with Sinder, but we could recognize the way she’d always acted towards Sinder.

Red: Me saying “I think Sinder and Silver will always be fighting for your work behind the scenes” is the first instance of me implying we would eventually be competing directly with anyone.

Red: Nano: “may i know whats up? kinda like to gossip.” Nano’s always been open to talking about drama and gossip with me.

Red: Nano got tired of hearing about drama around Silvervale specifically.

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TwitchCon 2023

10/20/2023 - Silver and I had back to back meet and greets at the Mythic Talent booth at TwitchCon. When mine ended, I saw her line wasn’t busy so I hopped into it to say hi to her. The last time I tried talking to her was my Twitter message about Minecraft almost a year earlier. Another friend of ours happened to be there to see Silver too, so I waited in line with them. When I saw her, I congratulated her on her Novel Horizons figure and Starforge PC that were both displayed at Mythic’s booth, told her she should be proud of all of the cool things she was doing recently, and I wished her luck on whatever she was planning next. Silver nodded along, thanking me, and I left. Red took a picture of me talking with her in the moment, which is not something either of us planned to do beforehand. Later in the day, I posted it on Twitter. I didn’t see the harm in posting a cute picture of us together. We were both with Mythic Talent, everyone wanted to see us interact, and showing us on friendly terms could stop the harassment.

I said in my apology:

“The photo of me at the meet and greet was taken candidly and I thought it looked so cute, and I posted it without asking you which was wrong of me.”

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1715513368721899908

Right after I tweeted, Red messaged our Mythic contacts about asking Silvervale to do something together.

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10/23/2023 - Silvervale messaged me on Twitter three days later, where she said she isn’t interested in collabs but is “always down if (I) want to message or anything though!” Some time after this message giving me the okay, I sent Silver a friend request on Discord.

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My Messages with Silvervale

Here are all of my dms with Silver after she said to contact her on Discord, since only a few of them have been shown. I will go over them below.

This quote from my apology applies here too:

10/25/2023 - 11/3/2023 - Silver messaged me after accepting my friend request. This was our first, and only, conversation in our dms. After turning down a collab, I brought up every other thing Red had talked about us doing together to see what she thought and get it out of the way now.

“On the other hand, Red was in my ear the whole time saying how great working together would be, since again, he's been the business oriented side of my brand.”

Maybe Silver just didn’t want to stream together and would be open to doing something else. I didn’t say it at the time, but I also brought these things up because of the dozens and dozens of requests I’d see of fans wanting us to do something together too. I said “I’d love to chat more either way.”, followed by “I completely understand” when she turned me down again. Silver never showed that message, and it was cut off in her document.

This was the final of two times I ever asked Silver to do something together, and the first and only time I asked her to do something professionally together. I didn’t mind her saying no, I was just glad to finally be able to talk and try to connect. While Red had lots of ideas for us to work together, I wanted to try fixing whatever problem she had with me and at least be on good terms. If the public saw us friendly with each other, then I believed the harassment would stop.

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11/15/2023 - I messaged Silver after I received her Gamer Supps merch. I supported all of my model sisters, even Silvervale.

This message was used in Silver’s own document against me to make it seem like I was taunting her, claiming that Red and I were planning to force Nano cancel Silver’s model. I sent this before she had the conversation with Red where Nano canceled Silver’s model herself.

I replied to Nano’s tweet showing off mine and Silver’s merch the next night too.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1725379647024619754

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11/17/2023 - Here are Red’s dms with Nano, two days after my message to Silver, when Nano made the decision to remove Silvervale from her wait list and cancel her model. The full conversation was in Nano’s section of this document.

Red: Only 2 minutes after I asked her what she could get rid of she showed me she removed Silvervale’s and Cotton’s model from her waitlist. Then she said she was going to blame it on Mio, her manager and husband, because “she’s dying” with her commissions.

Here’s Nano canceling the model with Silver in their dms, blaming Mio and her workload. This screenshot is from Silver’s document.

Red didn’t ask or make Nano cancel Silver’s model.

Image from Silver’s document:

This is what Red told Nano in May about working with Silver.

In July, Nano told Red that Silver was still her client, no matter how he may have felt about it.

Another day later on the 19th when Red and Nano were talking again, Red commented on Silver finding another model artist.

Red: I hoped Silver would find someone else to do her model so she wouldn’t come back to Nano for one. Unlike Sinder, by this point in time I had already basically written off Silvervale because of the underserved way she treated her.

After clearing things up between them, Nano told Red she was going to take back Silver’s model but never did.

https://x.com/Nanoless_/status/1916268553465954367

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12/6/2023 - I messaged Silver about her VTuber Award nomination.

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2/16/2024 - I messaged Silver to congratulate her on her new model she debuted. When I went to her stream to support her, my messages weren’t sending. I didn’t know what the problem was at the time, but came to find out later that I was restricted in her chat, meaning all of my messages were held for review and only visible to her and her mods.

Silver had been ghosting my messages for months, but I gave her the benefit of the doubt that she just genuinely missed them. She told me she was “always down if (I) want to message.” When this happened, despite everything telling me not to, I still clung onto the hope that we could make amends. I wasn’t oblivious to the way Silver had been treating me since I first debuted, and maybe I was too naive in thinking this way.

There were multiple times I thought to just straight up ask her about the problems between us so we could try and work our differences out, but I never had the courage to send that message.

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Gamer Supps Flavors

4/19/2024 and 4/26/2024 - Silver’s Gamer Supps flavor launched one week before mine. Once again I was told I was copying her, not just because her flavor was out before mine, but because we both had a label drawn by Nano. This was the second time our Gamer Supps launches were back to back.

4/19/2024

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1781397356723708089

4/26/2024

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1783937064045601275

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5/4/2024 - I messaged Silver to congratulate her on her Gamer Supps flavor. This was the last message I ever sent to her.

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Red’s Conversations with Mod #1

5/7/2024 - I had mod applications open again, and another two of Silvervale’s moderators applied after being encouraged to by Mod #1. Red messaged Mod #1 for their opinion on these new applicants. They’ve been modding for Silver for almost two years alongside them. Red then asked about me being restricted in her Twitch chat a few months earlier, and if there were any problems her mod team had with me since Mod #1 had been around for a long time.

Mod #1 asked Red to keep their conversations private from me. I was never told about these conversations Red was having with them or what he was told by Mod #1 over the following year, until Red and I were putting this document together.

Red: I want to apologize to Mod #1 for including our messages here. I hope you understand.

Red: Mod #1 told me they encouraged these couple of Silver’s mods to apply to our mod application.

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5/8/2024 - The other two of Silver’s mods who applied were accepted because of their experience and recommendation from Mod #1.

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5/24/2024 - Silver had tweeted her own version of this emote saying “hiiii”, and I replied to her using my Pyro Pup one. Shortly after, she deleted her tweet and never reposted it. This was the last time I tried interacting with Silvervale.

You can see this was a reply to @_Silvervale_ here.

After this, I gave up on holding out hope for fixing things between Silver and I. She had a problem with me for years and never wanted to address it. I would’ve preferred if she told me off directly instead of being fake to my face.

5/25/2024 - The next day, Red messaged Mod #1 about the tweet. They told him that the post was shared in Silver’s Discord server. Users there were wishing for a collab between us, and then all of their messages were deleted.

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5/30/2024 - Mod #1 messaged Red and told him that more of my emotes were getting blacklisted in Silver’s chat.

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6/24/2024 - Mod #1 told Red that they suspected Silver may have canceled her stream due to my second anniversary subathon, citing what she said in her announcement. They’ve been modding for her for about two years and would have a good idea of her motivations. My actual vtuber debut anniversary is on June 25th. I don’t have a screenshot of her announcement since Red was banned from her server, and I was never in Silver’s server.

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6/25/2024 - Red expressed concern to Mod #1 about the treatment of the mods Silver and I shared. Mod #1 told Red that everything they’ve seen from Silver’s side has been petty drama.

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7/11/2024 - Mod #1 told Red that her chatters found out that my name was a blocked term in her chat.

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7/19/2024 - Mod #1 messaged Red again about the drama in Silver’s mod chat about me.

Messages between two of Silver’s moderators, not including Mod #1, talking about how I was restricted in her Twitch chat.

One of the same mods above made an analogy about what I can only assume is me occasionally chatting in Silver’s Twitch chat and replying to her tweets, as if I was trying to take “her crowd” away from her. This analogy, and them saying “I have told you in private multiple times to very nicely, please leave me alone in every aspect of my life” didn’t come from nowhere. It leads me to believe this is what Silver had been telling her mods happened between us. As you can see by the entirety of our dms I’ve shown, nothing even similar to this was ever once said to me by Silvervale, even after I reached out to her directly about my messages not sending in her chat.

Here is the screenshot of Mod #1’s conversation with another one of Silver’s mods that they sent Red.

Mod #1 is green .

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My Bikini Debut and Silvervale’s Birthday

As early as March 2024, Red and I were planning a Gamer Supps merch drop with my second Waifu Cup for my anniversary on June 25th. Everything wasn’t going to be ready in time, so at the end of April we pushed it back to August to launch alongside my bikini outfit debut. I wanted that debut to be between my vtuber anniversary on June 25th and my birthday on September 14th, and since my first bikini debut was in October of 2022, I wanted to actually debut it in the summer this time. We planned for August 16th.

At first, we were given the okay that August 16th was available to launch my merch. Almost two months later, we were told we couldn’t launch that day because another creator was having their own drop, and it was requested at the start of the year. It wouldn’t have mattered if it wasn’t another vtuber, but since we were told it was a similar drop to ours, and for a special date, Red pieced together that it could only be Silvervale.

The timing chosen for my August debut and drop we were planning had nothing to do with Silvervale, or her birthday. Once Red figured out it was her who was launching something at the same time as me for the third time in a row, unintentionally throwing a wrench in things again, and after my interactions with her since TwitchCon, is when I became competitive towards Silver. We doubled down in trying to launch the weekend of the 16th, if not on the 16th itself. We did eventually compromise to launch the week before on August 9th, even if it wouldn’t be alongside my debut. However, a couple weeks before the release, we were told the 16th was suddenly available, so we moved my drop to that day.

Silver launched her birthday merch drop with her new 3D model debut on August 13th, a day after her birthday, and I launched my merch drop alongside my bikini outfit debut on August 16th.

8/14/2024 - Silver’s tweet was on the 14th, but her drop was released on the 13th.
https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1823889304025731544

8/16/2024

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1824567488182620520

Silvervale debuted a 3D model with two separate outfits. You can see the pose, design, and theming of the two outfits in this artwork.

Back in 2023, I debuted my 2.0 outfit and demon models, which were a pair to each other. You can see the pose, design, and theming of the two outfits in this artwork, from the same artist as the one above.

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Nano’s Exclusivity Deal and Artist #1

Like was shown in Nano’s and Bao’s sections, Artist #1 wanted to discuss a permanent, paid position with us, and suggested some kind of exclusivity for the work they did. Just like with Nano, Red handled any business related discussions with them. This is where the idea to go to Nano about exclusivity came from.

This is what I said about Silvervale in my apology in regards to this exclusivity deal:

“There was only one specific creator we were responsible for naming and pressuring Nano into reconsidering projects with, not an entire list.”

As for the exclusivity with Artist #1, Red and I had only agreed that we wanted to include it for their work, and didn’t talk about naming anyone to them.

1/15/2025 - This was when Nano and Red made their exclusivity deal. I didn’t know Red was planning to talk to her about it that day, or even knew he had until after they had already come to an agreement, without my involvement. This is everything that was said about Silver, and the full conversation is in Nano’s section.

We didn’t want Silver to be able to get a new model from Nano, but I wasn’t looking to have her cancel anything. I knew Nano didn’t have anything lined up with Silver.

Artist #1

As was shown in Nano’s section of the document, Red and Artist #1 also spoke about Silvervale in their own exclusivity talks on the same day.

Red: Because Silver didn’t like Sinder, I considered her competition. Artist #1 didn’t know either of our thoughts on Silvervale, unlike what I told Nano.

This was the 3rd of 4 total times, with 3 different artists, I had ever specifically asked anyone to not work with someone else, which are all presented in this document.

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1/16/2025 - The next day Artist #1 sent Red a document that laid out everything in their agreement.

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Artist #2:

2/7/2025 - 2/12/2025 - These are messages with who we’ll call Artist #2 in my project server, where I am also present. Red offered to pay Artist #2 to narrow down their clientele so they’d have more time for our projects. He was not suggesting they cancel anything on anyone, but in the future they be paid extra to accept less commissions and instead have time to accept more of our commissions. They sounded open to this idea.

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Nano Cancels the Deal

2/10/2025 - 2/20/2025 - Nano canceled the exclusivity deal she made with Red about a month after it was made so she could work with Silver. Silvervale didn’t lose out on any projects with Nano because of her agreement with Red.

Red: Nano couldn’t keep her word on the deal she agreed to because Silvervale asked her for a commission. Silver lost no work with Nano. Just like in November of 2023, Silver was the tipping point for her, so I don’t know why she agreed to our deal to begin with. Nano still had no problem sharing with me exactly what she was doing for Silver over a week later.

2/11/2025 - Nano messaged me the next day about her walking back on the deal she made with Red. He had already talked with me about her canceling the agreement specifically to work with Silver on something. She didn’t mention Bao or Cotton at all to me, and Silver didn’t lose out on any opportunity with Nano due to this deal. Nano got tired of hearing about Silvervale and didn’t want to be involved in any issues regarding her, but didn’t say anything about keeping her out of drama to Red. She faced no backlash from Red or I from going back on her word. Even though I was upset because this was my last resort to try ending the comparisons between Silver and I, I was content with Nano working on what she wanted to and didn’t hold it against her, like always.

Quote about this from my apology:

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3/13/2024 - Mod #1 messaged Red and told him someone in her Twitch chat was banned for asking about collabing with me.

Later that day, Mod #1 told Red that another of Silver’s mods was rude to them just for pulling one of my VCards.

“Hearing about Silver’s dislike for (Sinder is) why I’m not fond of her that much either.”

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2/20/2025 - 3/24/2025 - Red messaged Artist #2 in their dms separately from our chat in my project server to, eventually, ask them not to work with Silvervale. I was not aware of him doing this, or of his messages with Artist #2 until putting this document together.

Red: Nano canceled our deal 10 days before this because of Silvervale. Out of my own dislike for her and the value I placed on this artist, I asked them if they were willing not to work with her. I didn’t have a reason for not telling Sinder about this, I just didn’t.

This was the 4th of 4 total times, with 3 different artists, I had ever specifically asked anyone to not work with someone else, which are all presented in this document.

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AFK and Pixel Drops

4/4/2025 and 4/11/2025 - I launched my AFK flavor and merch, and the very next week Silver drops her pixel merch drop, making this the fourth time our Gamer Supps drops have been released back to back. The first time was to try and release my cup ahead of hers and they happened to be back to back, the second time with our flavors could’ve been a coincidence, and the third was bad timing. For it to happen again, randomly in April, separate from any other events, was weird.

4/4/2025

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1908233662551757110

4/11/2025

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1910710682208670129

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Talking to Artist #1 About Silvervale

4/11/2025 - Red messaged Artist #1 asking if they were the one who took irl pictures of Silver’s pixel merch, which they were. Once again, Red didn’t tell me about this conversation he had with someone about Silvervale. On this same day, and the day after on 4/12/2025, was when Red talked to Nano about Shylily, another conversation he didn’t tell me about.

For reference, here’s one of the pictures Red was talking about that Silver showed on her stream on 4/11/2025, but only posted on 4/14/2025.

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1911844904831172871

The message Artist #1 references above was their own message to Red from 2/21/2025. The reason why this is relevant is because if Artist #1 had the sampled merch items in their hands on this date to take pictures, then the merch drop would’ve already been completed and ready to be launched at almost any time Silver wanted, almost two months beforehand.

2/21/2025

Their conversation continued, with Artist #1 pointing out how mine and Silver’s merch always drop back to back, leading to Red telling him about the problems between her and I.

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4/13/2025 - 4/14/2025 - Artist #1 messaged me in our dms to ask if Red had told me about his conversation with them about Silver three days earlier, which he didn’t. Red never told me about this himself, the same way he never told me about his conversation with Nano about Shylily days earlier, his messages with Mod #1 and with Artist #2 about Silvervale, or that Bao and Cotton were part of his exclusivity deal with Nano.

——————————

Breaking Down Silvervale’s Document

In the events regarding Nano, Silvervale, like my friends, only knew what information Nano shared. I won’t be adding or addressing most of the dm screenshots shown in Silver’s document since they were all present within Nano’s document, and the full conversations were already shown.

After going through the things Silver wrote, I’ll address the many things she claimed on her stream.

Silvervale’s document for reference: I am "Vtuber1"

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 6:18 PM EST

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1916255691578449999

Silver, who wanted no personal or professional relationship with me at all, wouldn’t have had any knowledge about how Red and I conducted ourselves together. She just agreed with the narrative that my other accusers decided and added to the choir of voices pushing all the blame onto me.

Nano was not manipulated, abused, or treated as a tool by Red or I in the almost four years working together.

One of the first screenshots Silver shows is this one. The message where Nano called the deal with Red fair, which included not working with Silvervale again, is completely removed from Silver’s version of the screenshot. This is something Silver did herself.

Here is the same screenshot in Nano’s document where the bottom is also cut off to hide what Nano said.

And this is how it appears in Bao’s document. Nano’s message isn’t cropped out because Bao had no reason to remove it.

No one was sabotaged because of Red or I and Nano wasn’t manipulated, but Silver pushed readers to empathize with these false claims and the incomplete evidence on display.

I drew fan art of us, I asked her to hang out offline to get to know each other, and I went to see her at her public events. When finally given the chance to ask her, she refused any kind of business relationship. I was okay with it. I accepted it. That’s what Red prioritized me pursuing. I just wanted to try to be her friend, and if not friends, then at least on good terms. She’s absolutely correct in saying that she has the right to not vibe with someone. She was never obligated to be my friend. But instead of telling me that directly, she was completely two faced to me. I did nothing wrong to her and yet she still held some hatred against me for existing alongside her.

I could’ve messaged Silver on Twitter again. I could’ve friended her on Discord out of the blue. To me, both of those would’ve been weird considering our history. So after being at Mythic’s booth together, Red and I tried going through Mythic.

You can literally see the tonal shift in Silvervale’s two messages to Mythic after my name is brought up. She could’ve let Mythic tell me she wasn’t interested and went on about her day. She made the decision to message me on Twitter, which was never shown in her document.

In her document, Silver said “(She) told (Mythic) (she) would rather not collab but accepted (my) friend request on Discord after turning (me) down”, but never showed where she turned me down in our Twitter dms.

10/23/2023

Silver didn’t message me to tell me off or that she wanted nothing to do with me, like one of her mods implied she claimed to them.

She told me she was “always down if (I) want to message or anything!” I have been in Discord servers with Silvervale for years and never once sent her a friend request because I thought It’d be really weird to. It was only after Silvervale sent me this message explicitly saying that messaging on Discord would work better that I did.

Silver was the first one to message me, both on Twitter and on Discord. She conveniently cropped out my very next message after she turned me down where I completely understood her decision, or any of my following messages that had nothing to do with “monetized collabs.”

10/24/2023 - 10/29/2023

She didn’t say anything to me here, or in her Twitter message, about the picture I posted of us just days earlier either. She could’ve asked me to take it down if she had a problem with it, the same way she did about my fan art in the past, and I would’ve.

These two messages are presented out of order in Silver’s document. In Nano’s document they were presented in the correct order, and you can clearly see the timestamps on these two messages. I don’t know why Silver deliberately chose to lay them out this way other than to try making Red’s messages sound worse.

I’ve already explained this in Nano’s section, but Silver’s model wasn’t canceled due to Red or I pressuring her to do it. Nano canceled it herself.

11/17/2023

The very next day in her own public Discord server, Nano said she was “healthier and less stressed” after canceling Silver’s model.

11/18/2023

When Nano went to Red to clear up the confusion about their previous conversation, Red reassured her about working with Silvervale, and that he understood her position.

11/25/2023

Nano told Red she was going to take back Silver’s model, but never did.

11/25/2023

11/27/2023

If Nano lied and told Silver that her model was canceled because of me, then I can’t blame Silver for thinking that was the case. Nano chose to cancel Silvervale’s model in November 2023. It was not mine or Red’s fault. She never took it back like she told Red she was going to do because she was “healthier and less stressed.”

Despite this, I don’t expect Silvervale to care about what really happened to her model, since Nano’s currently making her a brand new one.

9/17/2025

This is the only other message between us Silver showed in her document. She framed this dm from me as if I was secretly taunting her while working to get her model canceled. That story is completely untrue, and this message was two days before Red even had the conversation with Nano where she canceled Silver’s model. My message was genuine, and Silver ghosted it anyway after inviting me to message her.

I didn’t do anything to warrant Silver’s hate of me other than just existing as Sinder.

Nano canceled Silvervale’s model in 2023 herself. Nano also canceled her deal she made with Red because Silver asked her for art, meaning Silver lost out on nothing due to their agreement. Their agreement was for Nano not to work with Silver anymore, not sabotage her and get something she had in the works canceled. Neither of us sought to have Silver’s projects canceled. Red asked one other artist not to work with her on his own, and as far as he knew nothing was canceled because of it.

The “rumors” expressed about Silvervale were true to our own experiences with her. There was no reason for Red or I to lie about that, the same way there wasn’t a reason for Red to lie to Nano about my experience with Shylily.

I hope this document and the evidence presented will convince you that Silvervale is the person that I’ve shown her to be.

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Silvervale’s Claims On Her Streams

When Silvervale finally had the opportunity to talk all about me on her stream, she showed her true colors to everyone. However, no one watching would’ve known what those colors really were.

Almost everything Silvervale said about me on her stream was greatly exaggerated or a lie.

4/29/2025

https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?si=AwMTaZlNGt5b2TWc

12:37 - 12:45 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=757

“I obviously- I didn’t want to talk about this, but I feel like I have to.”

Silver “didn’t want to talk about this”, and then goes on to egregiously lie about me.

17:43 - 17:53 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1063

“To find out that I’ve been systematically being torn down for years.”

If she was, it wasn't by me or Red.

18:22 - 18:29 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1102

“So yeah, I just found out about all of this like a day or so before I put out my doc.”

Silvervale posted her document towards the end of the day on April 26th. If Silver only found out about this a day or so beforehand, it supports my timeline in the Breakdown section of when she, Cotton, and Spite were first contacted.

19:54 - 20:43 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1194

“I was asked if I wanted my name censored, and I wanted it censored so that people wouldn’t know that it was me. But when I went back and looked at the doc or the pictures about everything that happened, I went back to my messages with her and I saw that one where she was so excited that we shared art, and we shared a model, and I didn’t think anything of it at all. And then I saw the fucking timestamp on it and I just couldn’t take it man. It was so fucked up. It was so vile and cruel and malicious for no reason.”

Silver’s referring to my message to her two days before Nano canceled her model in November of 2023. I’ve already debunked this claim. My message to her was genuine.

20:59 - 21:50 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1260

“…I didn’t know her. I wasn’t her friend. I was just someone that she beat down progressively over years for no reason. And I feel like that says a lot about a person. And I just really needed to get it out there because it was just sitting inside of me. Like so much was just sitting inside of me that I was realizing was just horrible that I’ve gone through and I couldn’t say anything because I thought she was just a really business savvy person, you know? I didn’t know what was going on. Yeah and it’s just been gnawing at me and seeing that I just, I felt like I had to get my side out there.”

As you’ve seen, Silvervale was not “beat down progressively over years for no reason” by me or Red, but Silvervale is implying that she’s had a problem with me for a long time.

22:21 - 22:32 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1341

“I didn’t talk to her. I never talked about her. Like she was there for years talking about me.”

She did talk to me, more than she showed, and she did talk about me, evidenced by what her mods said about me.

22:32 - 23:32 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1352

“Like I got weird vibes ever since, like I guess where it all started, and a lot of you probably don’t even remember this, but it stuck with me. She had this fan art of me and her, and she made a ship tag Sindervale. She’s the one that came up with that art tag. And she talked about how close our designs were and that she wanted to be wolf girls together, and it was so strange because I didn’t know this person, like she just came out of nowhere. And the art was sweet, but I didn’t wanna retweet that, like, I don’t want to push a ship tag.”

Here is the image of my original post again.

I explained above that I didn’t mean for my tag to be considered as a ship tag, but Silver was valid for thinking this, and I agreed with her, which is why I immediately deleted the post once I realized.

23:32 - 23:47 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1413

“And what was really weird is- so my mom, my mom retweets tons of art of me, and she’s amazing and I love her so much. And she didn’t retweet that one.”

Silvervale is lying. Her mom did retweet my artwork, liked, and commented on it before she unretweeted it later. Silver acknowledged that she did too.

23:47 - 25:23 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1428

“So Sinder’s manager messaged Yocci. I don’t know why they messaged Yocci. Maybe because they didn’t want to message my mom, but they messaged Yocci asking why my mom didn’t retweet the art, which is such a weird thing to do. Like, what, why is that just expected? And like if that’s being the first thing you do, like that really shows that your whole goal is just social media traction… but that’s so fucked up, and so shameless and strange and weird and just really showed their hand like this is all we care about. So that was the first thing in a whole slew of things where it really just felt like this person does not care about me and is not genuine and I just don’t want to deal with it. It was so weird… I think the tweet got deleted and reworded and the ship tag got taken out, but that stuck with me for forever cause it was just so fucking weird.”

This would be an extremely weird thing to do, if it’s what happened. But Silvervale is lying to make me sound crazy.

Red messaged Yocci because she was our only friend in this space at the time, and she was mutual friends with Silver. He didn’t ask why her mom didn’t retweet my art, but why she unretweeted it, because there must’ve been some kind of problem with it.

I never expected her mom to interact with my fan art, or for Silver to either. That would be weird and insane. Silver said that me choosing to spend hours of my own time making fan art of us together was so "shameless, strange, and weird” because she chose to interpret my actions in the worst way possible.

25:33 - 26:15 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1533

“And then there’s the TwitchCon picture, and I don’t want people to get the wrong idea about it. Like, you got to TwitchCon to get a picture with your streamer if it’s like a meet and greet. That’s totally normal most of the time. Like, you don’t have to ask. It’s sweet when you do, but it’s kind of expected you’re in like a public place, you’re going to get a picture taken, especially if you’re just like on a screen. But the fact that it was like a candid picture from far away at the perfect angle to make it look good and then insinuate that we were closer like wolf girls together, like I don’t know you. I want you to leave me alone. Like leave me alone.”

The picture was taken in the moment and wasn’t preplanned. Silvervale never told me to leave her alone. She did the opposite just days later.

If Silver had a problem with the picture I posted, you’d think she would’ve said something about it in this message, but she didn’t. She didn’t say anything about it in our Discord messages either. If she did, I would’ve taken it down just like I did my fan art years earlier.

26:15 - 27:01 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1575

“And that’s the reason I haven’t done any meet and greets since then. Because I’ve been so scared. I know it’s really, really fucked up and stupid, but I didn’t want to deal with it again because you’re trapped and you can’t run away. Like, I didn’t want her to talk to me again. I was so scared. I wanted to go to TwitchCon in person and give people hugs and sign merch and stuff and then it was like what if she’s there and how do I get out of that, like, and I didn’t want to deal with it so I didn't do it.”

If Silver was truly scared of me coming to talk to her and showering her with compliments like I did, she could’ve told Mythic not to let me in her meet and greet line again if she didn’t want me there at future events. She’s blaming me for not going to TwitchCon because of the possibility I’d interact with her. Anyone who’s met me in person knows who I am and how I act. I don’t know what she was afraid of, especially when all I did was praise and encourage her at her last meet and greet. Again, she told her chat she didn’t want me to talk to her again, but this is what she messaged me directly herself.

27:01 - 27:47 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1621

“I don’t know, it makes me feel pathetic. I don’t like feeling pathetic, like to be scared of someone like this, but I was. I feel really stupid and I could never say anything because like if you talk about how someone gives you weird vibes then you just come off like petty or something. But like she made me so fucking uncomfortable constantly. And I was very clear, I was very direct, like, I just don’t want to be your friend. I don’t want to talk to you. I said it as nicely as I could.”

Where? Where was Silver very direct and say anything like that to me?

27:47 - 28:20 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1668

“Like she reached out to my manager to try and get a collab, which was so uncomfortable and it made me so stressed and anxious and it was like going to your parent or your teacher to pressure you even more, like that’s an extra step above. Like who does that? You could have messaged me. Like the fact that you go to my manager that you know I’m going to have a hard time saying no to was just so uncomfortable.”

The one and only other time I messaged Silver myself to do something together, about a year earlier, she never responded. It wasn’t about an on stream collab, just to hang out offline. I wasn’t friends with her on Discord, so I couldn’t message her there.

Red was the one with the idea and who brought up asking Silvervale to do something together with Mythic, and I agreed. It was just to ask if she was interested, “if she’s down.”

No, I didn’t know Silver would have a hard time saying no to her talent manager, once again interpreting my actions in the worst way possible, because I never had a problem saying no to mine. Your talent manager is always on the side of whatever you want to do or not do. The screenshot she shared of this conversation doesn’t show her having any problem saying no to them. She very sternly turned them down at the mention of my name.

28:20 - 28:50 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1700

“And I was like, I was very clear. I said I’m flattered by the persistence, because god fucking damn it she was persistent. But I just didn’t want it. Like I should- you should be allowed to just not want to talk to someone… Like why did it have to be me when I very clearly was not interested.”

Silver is right, she was allowed to just not talk to me. I would’ve been okay with that if that’s what she told me. That’s not what she told me. She was not very clear.

After Silver told me she was always down to message, and I had asked about the possibility of everything else other than a collab, I just tried to talk to her. I sent her five messages after our first conversation over the next six months, all of which she ghosted. Nothing I said in any of those messages was about a collab, and all of them were just saying nice things to her.

Persistent about a collab? No. Aruuu asked Silver about the collab she had the idea for in October 2022 that never went anywhere. I asked to hang out offline, not collab, at the end of November 2022, which Silver never responded to. Mythic asking Silver about a collab, her messaging me, and me asking about anything other than a collab on Discord were all in the span of a few days in October 2023. That’s every instance there was any attempt from me to do anything with Silvervale.

Persistent in trying to talk to her like she said she was always down to do? Kinda, yeah. When she never replied to my message on Twitter from a year earlier, and from what she said in her message to me, I gave her the benefit of the doubt that she was missing my Discord messages and would eventually see and respond to one.

28:50 - 29:40 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1730

“Like to go to the extent that she did to just harass me in weird ways. It was really bad. And like they were all just little things, you know? Like little things that was like I don’t really like this. I wish this would stop, but like I couldn’t say anything. I couldn’t do anything. Like it was, I was, I just accepted this is just how it is, you know? And I just, I tried to get away from it as much as I could. I distanced myself. I tried to just not address it and just do my own thing. She just wouldn’t leave me alone.

After our first conversation on Discord, I messaged her five times with positive messages over six months. I occasionally would say hi in her Twitch chat, until I was restricted. I very rarely replied to her on Twitter. I don’t know what constitutes me harassing her after she told me she was always down to message.

Silvervale never communicated to me about anything. She falsely claimed to her chat that she was very direct with me about how she felt while portraying me as this malicious person.

29:40 - 30:04 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1780

“And I don’t understand why she was so obsessed. Like, I’m sure there were other people that didn’t talk to her. Why did it matter so much that I didn’t? I just, it doesn’t make any sense.”

I was not obsessed with Silvervale. Red wanted to pursue working together because he knew anything we did together would be a success. But to me, if Silvervale and I were on good terms publicly, whether through something like a collab, or as small as interacting on Twitter, the harassment I was getting, and she was supposedly getting too, could've ended. I don’t know what “doesn’t make any sense” to her.

31:36 - 33:00 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1896

“…I just prefer that if I’m going to be playing games with someone on stream, it’s someone that I know well and I know that they love me for who I am and not what they can get out of me. And I was super clear. I was super clear that I wasn’t interested in a collab. And I tried to be as nice as I possibly could. Like I don’t know how else I could have worded that. Like that’s a transactional relationship. If you come at me asking for a collab and I say no and then you say, “Well okay, how about merch? How about a song? How about this? How about that?” Like, I don’t want the money. I don’t want the stress. Like, if I do one thing then people expect more. You know, it’s a gateway into having this person attached to my life that I don't know and I’m not comfortable with. So, if I do one thing, I have to do all the other things. And I just didn’t want to deal with that. Her intentions were super clear, and all she kept asking was for a fucking merch and fucking collabs. Like oh, we look the same. Okay we’re the same made up magical animal, why does that fucking matter? Like I didn’t want to be around her and I wish you would have just left me alone.”

As I explained, I asked Silvervale about every possibility other than a collab to see if she was interested in anything else Red had talked about us doing together to get it all out of the way. I asked her once, she said no, I accepted that, and I moved on just trying to be friendly with her. I didn’t expect Silvervale to agree to do anything with me. I certainly didn’t expect Silvervale to reach out to me herself and tell me she was always down to message either.

33:07 - 34:37 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=1987

“It’s just so fucked up how she hid it? I am surprised. I had no idea this was going on. I had no idea. I mean, none of us did. So, I guess she hid it really well. And like I don’t want people thinking like there’s no one nice in the world, like there is, but it was amazing how two faced she was and how well she hid everything. And it’s fucking scary. Like it’s always what I was afraid of from other streamers. And like you hear horror stories about like “Oh, this person’s so different off stream” but like, holy fuck dude. Like, wow. It’s maniacal. Like it’s so fucked up. I just, the more I found, the more I couldn’t believe it. Like, it's like it’s a bad movie. It’s just so irrationally evil in every single way. Just cause I didn’t want- just cause I didn’t want to do a collab with you, you wanted to tear my life apart.”

It’s amazing how two faced Silvervale was and how well she hid everything. I accepted her decision when she told me she didn’t want to collab after the one time I asked. She hid that from the public.

35:09 - 35:21 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2109

“I guess the fact that I just wasn’t interested set her off so much and just like fucking broke her brain to the point she just wanted to take me out because I said no thank you.”

Silvervale told me she wasn’t interested in a collab, and I was okay with that. She never showed that in her document, and didn’t show that to her chat. At no point was I trying to “take her out.” I wanted to ask Nano not to work with her on new models anymore so Silver would get a model from someone else, and the biggest thing we were compared over wouldn’t be a problem anymore. I don’t see how her not being able to work with Nanoless on a model would’ve “taken her out.”

Silver blamed me for all of the misfortunes in her career when I did nothing to her, and the one time I agreed to try doing something, it didn’t affect her. While I was focusing on my own content, she looked at me with scorn for years, but she broke me?

35:27 - 38:08 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2127

“And I keep hearing this story that I hated her. I never hated her. I just didn’t want her around me. Like I respected that she was so business oriented. Like it sucks, but I respected that, you know? Like she was a go getter. She was very very business oriented and that was really admirable and impressive, you know, like to grow so much so fast. And she seemed really driven, but I just wasn’t interested in associating with her. Like I just didn’t want to be friends with someone I could tell was going to use me as a rung on a ladder. Like I just didn’t have the emotional bandwidth to deal with that. And I got so many weird vibes from her. But like I never in a million years could have imagined it was this bad. Like I just thought that’s a little weird, she doesn’t really care much about people, but there’s no way she’s- like finding out that she was this cruel and malicious like not only to me but like her best friends that she made memories with and spent years with and did like things together. Like I can’t imagine sitting next to someone and like making memories, going on trips, and like, and then you think about how badly you want to take them down while doing that is insane… That’s just fucking nuts dude. It’s so evil. Like the things I saw and the things that keep coming out, like they’re vile. How she treated people like that thought she was their best friend is fucking vile. And it’s surprising that it took this long. I guess if she was like that, like I don’t know how you hide something like that. Like your true self.”

It’s obvious Silvervale had a problem with me for years. She did not respect me enough to even respond to my messages, even to tell me off “directly” like she lied about doing. Everything she said here is untrue, and she’s just maliciously parroting the claims Shylily and my friends made.

39:12 - 41:30 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2352

“And like she kept making this claim that her actions towards me were like fueled by how often she saw us compared. A comparison that she originally even made with that fan art. So I don’t know why she was surprised if you are the one that pushed that in the first place. Like you were just like a color swap of me and you said that. You literally said look, we're opposites. We’re so cute. Like, why are you surprised? And I heard these same comparisons all the time too. All the fucking time. Constantly. I saw them in my chat. I saw them in Discord. I saw them on Twitter. I saw them constantly all the time. But I would never do this. Like if just being compared to me is the reason that you go around telling everyone that I hate you and you slander me all because we were compared like it’s fucked up. Like when I saw those things, sure I get like I get fucking sad. Like how can you not get sad when people are calling this other person the better version of you and always asking why don't you collab with so and so? You’re so much alike, oh you remind me so much of blah blah blah. Like I get said, but I just think about how I could do better and put my little fucking horse blinders on and like be in my little bubble and do my own shit… I would never lash out and try to ruin someone’s career. Like, people get compared all the time, but no one fucking does this. This is insane.”

“You wore that revealing dress, so you deserve what happened.”

That’s Silvervale’s argument about my fan art and how it related to years of harassment I got for being her “dollar store” version. I drew fan art of us because she inadvertently inspired Sinder’s creation, not to be sent hate and called names for years.

Seeing comments comparing us didn’t have anything to do with me knowing Silvervale hated me. Her own actions told me that. Nothing I ever told to anyone about Silvervale was slander, or untrue to the way she treated me.

Silvervale said herself that she got upset because of the comparisons made between us, but instead of just being friendly to one another, she decided to put on her blinders and ignore it because she couldn’t bring herself to show me the kindness I showed her at every turn.

Silvervale wouldn’t have been able to work with Nano, if Nano didn’t cancel her deal as soon as Silvervale asked her for something. She would’ve lost out on one artist who initially agreed to cut her off. That is hardly anything to ruin her career.

41:30 - 41:57 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2490

“And it’s baffling that it went on for fucking years. Like actual years in the background just silently tormenting me and like ruining so many projects. Like I didn’t even know how- I just thought I was unlucky you know? Like it just kept happening. I was like, oh okay that sucks, but you know, I’ll find another artist, I’ll think of something else.”

Nothing went on for years. I didn’t ruin Silvervale’s projects, and she blamed me for everything that went wrong for her.

41:57 - 43:37 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2517

“It was my fucking birthday dude. Like I was cringe, I don’t know, but like birthdays are important. And it was really special. And Nano would come to me originally with that model like that it makes it so fucked up cause like I originally didn’t even ask for a model. She came to me and she was like “I learned all this stuff and I love your model so much I really want to give you another one with all the new things I can do and the new Live2D shit” and I was like okay sure. Like it’s almost my birthday, it would be amazing to have you do my birthday model. And we sketched it and it was beautiful. It was so beautiful, and then it just got taken away… But finding out that you literally took it away from me because it’s something I would be happy about and something that meant something to me, that’s so fucked up. Like it’s just so evil. Like it’s so comically evil, it’s insane. And this went on for years. Like years. I had no fucking idea that any of this was happening.”

In May of 2023, Nano told Red that she was the one to ask Silvervale about making a new model for her.

Nano canceled Silvervale’s model herself in November 2023, and then chose not to take it back when she had the chance to.

Silvervale’s birthday is August 12th. How was this supposed to be her birthday model if her birthday had already passed months ago by the time her model was canceled, and when it was only scheduled to be started in January 2024?

Silvervale saying I had her model canceled for her birthday does sound extremely evil. Which is why she said it. I had nothing to do with her model being canceled.

44:14 - 45:18 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2654

“And like I’ve been contacted by other artists after my doc came out. And I guess I’m really glad that I put that part in there about worrying that she had been saying things about me because that was true apparently. They told me that she had told them that I hated her and I was this malicious person and that I was so mean and I just hated her so much. Like usually conveniently right after doing a project or art piece or something with me that got traction and she didn’t like it. And they told me that hearing that made them less inclined to work with me again because they think I’m this evil terrible person, because why would she say that if it wasn’t true? Like why would you lie about someone? And this happened so much. Like it wasn’t just Nano. It was so many other people.”

Silver claimed that she was contacted by “so many” other artists telling her I was slandering her, “conveniently right after doing a project or art piece” with her because I allegedly didn’t like the traction it got. Why would she say this if it wasn’t true?

There were three artists total Red or I have ever talked to about how Silvervale treated me. Nanoless, Artist #1, and Artist #2.

Silver isn’t talking about Nano, and she says as much. Nano was the only artist I talked to about Silvervale.

She could possibly be talking about Artist #1, but Red was the one who talked to them about Silvervale.

I can rule out Artist #2 being someone she’s referring to here by something she said at the end of her stream, which will be addressed.

Meaning that there weren't “so many” other artists reaching out to Silvervale.

Either I’m choosing to leave out conversations I allegedly had with other artists about Silvervale in this document for some reason, or a bunch of artists, separately from each other, all decided to message Silver and lie to her and tell her the same story, all at the same time, or Silvervale is lying to her audience again to make me sound worse.

If Silvervale’s telling the truth, then she should have no problem with showing the messages from these artists.

45:51 - 46:50 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2751

“All I ever did was just wanna play video games and stream and happen to be the same fucking animal. That’s it. Like that’s the reason you want to destroy my whole career and ruin friendships and tear me down because people compare you to me. Like it’s fucked. It’s so fucked. I just, I don’t know. It doesn’t feel real. Like it feels like I’m in this alternate reality fucking nightmare. Like it’s insane to find out all this and know that I was like being silently destroyed from someone. It feels like a bad comic book villain. Like who does this?”

I didn’t want to destroy Silvervale, or her career, and I didn’t try to. I wanted to ask Nano not to make models for her anymore because of the comparisons between us and harassment I got over it, and because of the way Silvervale acted towards me for years for no reason.

46:52 - 47:24 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2812

“And her apology. Oh my fucking god her apology dude. Like no words can express how fucking disgusting that was. It was zero accountability. Like it’s so fucked up. Like all of it is just so fucked up. And it’s like even like I feel bad saying mean things about her, like even if they’re true.”

Silvervale repeated Shylily’s claim that I took zero accountability in my apology, yet I apologized the most to Silvervale. I called myself “unapologetically evil” towards her and didn’t go into detail of our interactions laid out in this section of this document.

She said she “felt bad saying mean things about (me), even if they’re true”, but almost everything she’s claimed about me has been a lie.

48:37 - 49:02 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2917

“It’s nice to know the reason why I kept being kicked down constantly. I just thought I was really unlucky. Yeah. Like relieved. I’m relieved to know what was happening. Like I don't think I’m- I’m not like a problematic person.”

Silvervale was not kicked down constantly by me or Red.

Silvervale claimed she isn’t a problematic person.

48:37 - 50:16 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=2980

“Like she could have just said “Okay like if you don’t want to do things with me that’s fine. I’ll just go find other people to talk to or like ask someone else.” Like all I did was say no thank you in the nicest way I could possibly think of. And I was very direct. Like I’m a very direct person. Like I’m a very communicative person. If I have a problem, I will tell you. If something makes me uncomfortable, I will tell you. And I straight up told her like, no thank you I’m not interested. And that just pissed her off.”

I could’ve just said “Okay if you don’t want to do things with me that’s fine.”

Silvervale is a very direct person. She’s a very communicative person.

If she has a problem, she will tell you. If something makes her uncomfortable, she will tell you.

50:18 - 51:04 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3018

““Oh, think of all the money we could make.” Okay, that’s nice. I don’t fucking care. Like I would much rather be thousands of dollars cheaper than have this weighing on my mental for the rest of my life. Did she actually say that? Yeah. Her and her Red, her boyfriend slash manager just kept talking about how much money they could make if they did things with me. Like it’s so fucked. That’s all I was to them. I was just a fucking walking money bag that they wanted. Like it’s insane.”

Red said this to Nano in May of 2023, once, expressing that working together would be mutually beneficial for us both. His message before this literally says it wasn’t about the money, it was about Silver getting along with me.

51:05 - 52:08 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3065

“And I feel bad like, I feel bad speaking ill of like a Gamer Supps partner. Like I even had to tell Gamer Supps I’m so sorry. Like I’m sorry that I put out a doc. I’m sorry that I spoke ill of someone that’s such a big part of their company. Like I fucking love Gamer Supps and I feel bad speaking ill of someone, but like this is so fucked up dude. Like it’s not okay. It’s not okay. It’s not okay to treat people like this. Like, there’s business and there’s fucking I don’t even know what to call it. Like this is so fucked. Like there’s business partnerships and there’s business relationships as a streamer and I get that and that’s totally fucking fine, but this is insane. This is actually insane. It’s so malicious and it’s so horrible.”

I don’t know why Silvervale dragged Gamer Supps into this conversation other than to look considerate to them and her audience.

52:08 - 52:51 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3128

“Like I’ve always been a little uncomfortable, but I had no idea. And I could never say anything. And like I always felt so bad. And you’re like oh I love her, oh she’s so much like you, you should collab. And like I can’t say- I could never come out and say no, sorry, she just wants to use me. Like then that would explode and I would seem like the bad person because I didn’t want to do it, like, and I just had to deal with that for so long. It’s just so fucked up dude.”

I didn’t want to use Silvervale. I wanted to be on good terms with Silvervale, if not eventually friends. Something she didn’t ever want. That wouldn’t have been a problem if she had just told me that “directly” instead of being two faced to me and then playing the victim.

52:51 - 53:38 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3171

“Like I just keep thinking about all the things that I had plans for and like I would talk about having plans for and then they would fall through and like it’s kind of a little thing. But even like, I was so excited for the Oblivion launch and I was like I want to get another model from Lime Breaker just like my Fallout one that’s interactive and swaps weapons and like we collect stuff over time and that’ll be so cool. And then Lime has a big commission and he can’t do it. And then guess who that commission’s for? Like it’s just, this is fucking crazy dude.”

Silvervale continues to attribute any of her plans that fell through as my fault. She admits she had a problem with me working with someone she seemingly considered one of “her” artists. I got an unreleased art piece commissioned from them because I liked their work, and they drew fan art of me in the past. It had nothing to do with Silvervale, or because I somehow telepathically knew she was planning to ask them for a new model in the near future.

53:50 - 54:24 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3230

“Like I was nothing to her. Like I was not a threat. Like I wasn’t someone she interacted with on the daily like her friends. Like I was no one. Like why did you have to step on me constantly and just beat me down from the shadows then fucking message me and revel in it and just laught to yourself like “Oh, fuck this bitch.” Like this is not okay.”

I did not step on Silvervale constantly, or “beat her down from the shadows.” All of my messages to Silvervale were genuine, but she couldn’t see them for anything other than what she wanted to see them as.

56:21 - 57:23 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3381

“…Like this was their life. Like the die hard fans that buy merch and say you’re their oshi. Like you are the hugest part of someone’s life and that is a big responsibility to be someone that they can be proud of, that they can love forever. And to just throw that away is so fucked up. To not even think about them, to just think about the dollars they can give you and not think about how this would affect them and what they would do when they find all of this out cause she had to think they would find out eventually right? Like did she think that she could do this forever? Was the plan always to have Red as a scapegoat? I don’t know. It would make sense, I guess. But, you like- she’d have to think it would come out eventually.”

What a crazy thing for Silvervale to say. She’d have to think this would come out eventually?

57:23 - 57:52 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3443

“And thank god for Nano. Thank god for Nano coming out. But like, some of the artists that talked to me even said like I really wanted to say something. But what would that do if someone, if they messaged me and they were like “Hey is it true that you hate Sinder?” and I just be like “No what? Where did you hear that from?” And they just be like “Okay.” And then it wouldn’t go anywhere.”

Where are the messages from “some of the artists”, plural, who told Silvervale they really wanted to say something to her about me?

57:54 - 58:52 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3474

“Like the fact that Nano came out, I admire her so much, and I appreciate that so much because so many of us would never have any idea and it would probably have gone on for years and she probably would have done this to more people and made more friends and abuse their trust more. So, like as fucked up as it is, and as much as it fucking hurt to see someone say those things about me that I respected and loved, I’m really thankful that she did because I can’t imagine where we’d be in five years if that was still happening. Like, would I even have a career? Would I have just been like so demoralized from everything in my life going wrong? Like what would her friends do, you know? Like it’s so fucked.”

Nothing went on for years, and I didn’t abuse my friend’s trust just to betray them. Silvervale’s career wouldn’t have ended if Nano decided to abide by her agreement with Red and not work with her. Silver again implies "everything in her life going wrong” would’ve somehow been my fault.

59:01 - 59:25 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3541

“It hurt to see (Nano) say some of that? Yeah, but like I understand, I mentioned it in my doc. Like I understand what she was going through. Like the extent of the emotional torment and manipulation. She believed Sinder was her best friend in the whole world and that all these other people were out to get her, and I get that, like I understand where her mindset was.”

Nano lied. Nano wasn’t abused, and she wasn’t manipulated.

1:00:07 - 1:01:16 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3607

“I don’t think this has ever happened like in the history of streamers, like there’s being competitive and there's business relationships, but this is insane. Like this is actual sabotage. Actual libel. Like I was being slandered for five years. I can’t do math. I’m pretty sure it was like three years, four- it was a long fucking time. Like my whole fucking career. I was just being slandered to an insane degree by someone that like, I like admired. Not admired, because I knew she was like a clout hungry snake, but like she was very business savvy and that’s neat I guess. I wouldn’t even say it was respect- you know what I mean. I had no problems with her.”

All of the evidence for the things Red and I have said about Silvervale is all shown here. We did not slander her to anyone, and everything said was based on our own personal experiences.

Shylily called me a snake, and Silver went out of her way to call me a “clout hungry snake.” If anyone’s worthy of that title it’s Silvervale, lying all throughout her stream, and claiming she “had no problems with (me)” in the same breath.

1:01:16 - 1:02:22 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=3676

“It just sucked. It sucked getting compared. It sucked thinking that I wasn’t good enough… And I would see some of my community leave. I would see my mods join her mod team and wonder why I wasn’t good enough. And I don’t know if she sought them out because they were my mods, but I guess a lot of stuff starts to make sense… And I hope with all of my heart that her community can find new homes.”

The fact that Silvervale is saying it sucked to be compared is funny, because she was never harassed the way I was. She was never “blue Sinder” like I was “red Silvervale.” If only there was a way we could’ve made the comparisons between us stop.

Silver goes on to blame me for her community apparently leaving hers and becoming Pyro Pups, as if they couldn’t be both of our fans. Maybe her community leaving could’ve had something to do with her choosing to change her stream time to mornings instead of nights? Did she do that because of me? How would I have taken them from her specifically? Mind control? Targeted ads? Like, what?

Her mods all willingly applied to my mod applications and were chosen due to their experience modding. Maybe they wanted to mod for me because my server was a much more inviting place to be by Mod #1’s account shown in this section above, or maybe because Silver started making them pay her to have the privilege of the job, and apparently abused them when they only tried helping her.

1:08:42 - 1:09:11 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=4122

“You know, maybe people can stop being so fake. I don’t know if they will, but you can hope I guess. It’s not hard to be a good person, it’s really not. It’s so much more effort to lie to people and manipulate people. And how did that not get stressful, you know? Like how did you not feel bad, at least a little bit?”

This is the most ironic thing Silvervale could’ve possibly said.

1:10:11 - 1:10:55 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=4211

“Thank you guys, you’re so sweet. Thank you for being here and taking the time out of your day to be here for me. I was really anxious to come back. Like I know I didn’t do anything wrong, but like I feel bad saying these things about someone else cause like I didn't think about her at all. Like she wasn’t a part of my life. Like it feels weird to talk about her, you know. But I really appreciate you guys being here and supporting me and being so sweet. And thank you for all of your subs.”

Silver said she didn’t do anything wrong while lying about all of these things she supposedly felt bad saying about me. I was someone she claimed she didn’t, ever, think about, at all. The person she attributed every misfortune in her career to for years, including her audience and her mods choosing to watch and support me.

1:11:16 - 1:12:48 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=4276

“Petal pups and petal pals… Did she get Pyro Pups from that too? I don’t know. I don’t know what I inspired and what I didn’t, but there’s a lot of things like her art tag. Like there’s so many things that I don’t know. I have no idea. But who fucking knows anymore bro. Well, I don’t want to think about it. It’s weird. It’s weird dude. Oh thank you for the sub to Lily. Lily’s been so sweet. She’s been such a fantastic person. She’s been a rock for all of us through all of this.”

As explained, Pyro Pups and my art tag were not derived from Silvervale’s brand.

Silver calling Shylily the “rock” for everyone points to her being the one who reached out to Silver, and the one at the head of planning my cancellation.

1:22:50 - 1:23:30 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=4969

“It’s nice to get it off my chest. It’s nice to talk about it cause I could never say like “Hey, this person makes me uncomfortable. Can we not talk about them?” Because then like you read into that and then you know like I could, I just had to sit there and suffer in silence and hope it would go away, and it never went away because I was a boss she couldn’t beat. I was a goal she couldn’t achieve. Like I don’t know why it mattered so much to have me do something with you when we don’t even, like, we don't interact at all.”

First of all, it is extremely narcissistic of her to claim she was a “boss I couldn’t beat” and a “goal I couldn’t achieve.” But it’s especially ironic when she’s the one blaming me for everything that’s been going wrong in her career.

The one time I asked her about a professional collab, through Mythic and directly, I accepted her turning me down. But why did it matter that we did something together? For years we’ve both been harassed about the other, and at the same time begged by fans to do anything with each other. How do we appease both parties? We do something together. Literally anything, even as small as interacting on Twitter. If we’re seen on good terms, the fans have no reason to perpetuate this stupid bullshit of comparing us, and the fans that want to see us together are satisfied with their two favorite vtubers interacting. But Silver couldn’t look past her own ego to even communicate with me, and would rather sit there and blame everything that went wrong on me.

1:30:58 - 1:31:25 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=5458

“Like I can talk about it- I’ve talked about it to my mom, and some of my friends when they find out about it, but I feel like it’s so different walking to you guys about it, you know? And I didn’t talk to anyone like about her ever. Like so it’s all just like coming out of nowhere”

Silvervale is lying. Her mods didn’t all have a negative opinion of me for no reason. One of them made an analogy of Silver being “very direct” with me, something they’d only know if Silver told them she was. Another one of them said that they heard about Silver’s dislike for me. How would they know that unless Silver talked about me?

1:32:56 - 1:33:28 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=5576

“Did Nyan know a bit? I won’t go into her side, but she had met Sinder at a party and she had told her something very catty and snide and it stuck with her, and it bothered her for a long time. I think she mentioned she got a backhanded comment and it was like, it was really fucked up. Like it was a really fucked up thing to say.”

I spoke to Nyanners at a party at AX in the summer of 2023, and it couldn’t have been for more than fifteen minutes. I’d like to know what I said that stuck with her because I don’t remember saying anything remotely similar to what’s being described here, and I can’t imagine I would’ve when I was sitting directly across from her. This was the first time I’d ever met her and spoken to her, and I’ve never had any ill feelings towards Nyanners. We’ve spoken briefly at other events since, and we were both only kind to each other.

1:33:30 - 1:33:28 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=5610

“And like they’re my best friends, so they know that like I would feel sad sometimes if there were a lot of comparisons, but I would just be like, a little sad, it’s a little rough, I wish people would stop talking about it and I wish she would leave me alone. Cause it was really hard and she would not leave me alone. But I never talked about her. Like after I told her I didn’t want a transactional relationship, that was it. And I just said like, “Please go away. Leave me alone.” And she’s not in my life. I don’t talk about her. I don’t think about her. I just wanted her to leave me alone.”

What could’ve possibly stopped these comparisons that made Silver sad?

I sent Silver five messages over six months after our first conversation on Discord. She never told me to “please go away” or “leave me alone.” She lied.

1:46:38 - 1:48:11 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=6398

“…Like that just shows how dedicated they are and how supportive they are and how much of like- they put so much into making their partners happy. And I am so incredibly happy with them. That’s why I’m also so fucking pissed off because like she distrespected Gamer Supps and they are the nicest people. Like I had dinner with the CEO and my reps and they were the nicest fucking people. Sorry, I’m like, it’s just fucked to take advantage of that an like to cost them money and effort from all the artists that worked on those merch things and all the people behind the scenes that figure out the logistics and manufacturing and like to just disrespect them like that is heartbreaking because they are amazing. And I’m usually not like, oh, I love this company kind of person, but like Gamer Supps is different man. Like they’re so different. They’re wonderful people and she was a partial owner. So it’s like extra terrible because that reflects on them you know, and that is like the highest honor you could possibly have. And to take advantage of that is so horrible.”

I love Gamer Supps too, so how did I disrespect or take advantage of Gamer Supps in any way, in anything I did? I didn’t, but that didn’t stop Silver from claiming I did.

1:50:20 - 1:51:36 https://youtu.be/1xoDSJJ-mB0?t=6620

“I have dakis for sale on Cuddly Octopus.. I want to get another one. We plan out our drops like the whole year, so I have like a whole year of really cool drops planned. And we’ll have another one in the future, so don’t worry. The artist that I wanted to work with canceled on me. So I have to figure out another artist to draw it. But we’ll be fine… Yeah, I don’t want to assume, and I don’t want to straight up ask them, you know, but I would not be surprised because they worked very closely with them”

Based on the project, I can only assume this person we worked closely with is Artist #2. If it is, Red didn’t know Silver had anything planned with them that would’ve been canceled. This would prove that Artist #2 couldn’t have been one of the artists Silver claimed reached out to her after my cancellation if she didn’t know if we were involved in this project getting canceled or not. If Artist #2 reached out, that would’ve been something told to her. That leaves Nano and Artist #1 as the only two artists that could’ve reached out to Silver about anything Red or I said about her.

—————————————————

The very next day, Silvervale chose to talk more about my fan art from 2021. Instead of correcting her story from the day before, she doubled down on lying about what really happened.

4/30/2025

https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?si=-VFA6i29iaXeKyUl

14:23 - 14:44 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=863

“And I have a little bit more to talk about, or kind of address, elaborate on, I guess. I don’t know the best way to phrase that and kind of explain some things.”

16:16 - 16:37 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=976

“I really appreciate people that came back if they were here before. Thank you for rejoining the community and being a part of our home and hanging out with us again. I appreciate it a lot, it’s nice to have you back.”

Silvervale makes another comment about her viewers returning, insinuating that I stole them from her and was keeping them from supporting and watching her in some way.

On her previous stream she said she “would see some of (her) community leave.”

Both of these comments from her support what Mod #1 said to Red about Silver’s announcement canceling her stream specifically during my anniversary subathon in 2024, meaning as far back as last summer she felt this way, if not much earlier.

21:31 - 21:54 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=1291

“Like I’m glad I feel relieved to be able to like move on from things, but it’s hitting me harder than I thought it would, like physically. It’s been a lot and it’s been stressful to like think back through the course of fucking four years, you know?”

I barely did anything to Silvervale “through the course of fucking four years.”

22:21 - 23:21 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=1341

“So there’s one thing I wanted to I guess elaborate on. I don’t feel like I really need to, but I saw some people that had some questions that I think are valid questions. So yesterday I mentioned the ship tag fan art. That was the very first thing I can think of that made me feel uncomfortable with the situation and is the first thing that made me question her motivations towards me. And I think some people were confused because you can find that art, but it’s a different tweet than the one that gave me those feelings. So I don’t want people to think that I was being untruthful or anything, but it makes sense that you can’t find that tweet if you don’t have the link to the original one cause she did repost it.”

“I don’t want people to think that I was being untruthful or anything”

23:24 - 24:16 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=1404

“You can find it through the Wayback Machine, cause I had the link to the old tweet because my mom had messaged me about it, which is how the whole thing started. And I was talking to Yocci about it when she was messaged… Okay so this is from the Wayback Machine, but that’s the original tweet that she made and she started the sindervale tag and said that she wants us to be part of the same wolfpack someday.”

Here is the tweet as Silvervale showed it on her stream.

In order for Silver to find this on the Wayback Machine, she needed the link to my original, deleted tweet, and she said she had it because her mom messaged her about it. So because her mom did retweet my art, contrary to the story Silver has been telling, is it more likely that her mom messaged Silver the link to my tweet she already liked, commented on, and retweeted, or that Silver saw her mom’s retweet of my fan art, and then messaged her saying she had a problem with it, prompting her mom to delete everything? I believe Silver was even lying about this.

24:16 - 25:15 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=1457

“And imagine seeing that from someone you don’t know who has been posting art of them with people they don’t know for weeks and really feeling uncomfortable about it. So it was really creepy and very weird and uncomfortable, and my mom was like “I don’t know what to do about this.” She was really really stressed and really anxious and I was really stressed and anxious. I think it went on for a couple days, not being sure what to do because if I didn’t reply to it, it looked suspicious. I don’t know. Weird that I wasn’t replying to it. The whole thing was very stressful. It was very weird and it came out of nowhere. It was really uncomfortable.”

First Silvervale claimed I was posting art of myself with people I didn’t know for weeks. She’s talking about my skebs that I addressed in the previous section. Everyone I got skebs with knew me at the time I ordered them, so she’s wrong.

She said me posting these skebs made her even more uncomfortable when she saw my fan art. As you can see from the screenshot of Silver’s stream above, my original fan art tweet that had the sindervale tag was posted on 1/31/2021 and wasn’t up for more than 24 hours before it was deleted.

Here is my very first skeb request with another vtuber. It was delivered to me one day earlier on 1/30/2021.

Here are my Twitter media posts from 12/1/2020, before Sinder was even designed, to 2/6/2021, after I had already reposted the fan art of Silver and I without the tag. There is one meme I made of myself and another vtuber that was posted before my fan art. There are no other art posts of myself and other vtubers, because they didn’t exist yet. So how can Silver claim that my nonexistent skebs made her even more uncomfortable about my fan art of us together? She’s lying again, making me sound worse by retroactively throwing that detail into her story.

Silver goes on to say her mom didn't know what to do about this and that she was really stressed and anxious over it. Her mom liked, commented on, and retweeted my post, so I find this hard to believe, unless Silver was the one who went to her mom with a problem with it, and then her mom didn’t know what to do. It literally wouldn’t have mattered, but she couldn’t even take accountability for something this minor that happened in 2021.

If Silvervale didn’t reply to my art, it wouldn’t have looked suspicious at all. Does Silvervale reply to every single piece of fan art she gets?

She talks about how uncomfortable, and stressful, and anxious this made her, but I was nobody at the time. Here’s my Twitter profile from 3/16/2021, a month and a half after my fan art was posted. I had under five thousand followers. I wasn’t even a vtuber yet, and wouldn’t be for well over another year. As I said before, I didn’t expect any kind of interaction from Silver or her mom.

Here’s Silvervale’s profile from 2/2/2021, right when this happened, and she had over a hundred thousand followers.

25:15 - 26:53 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=1515

“And I think some people were wondering like why I didn’t talk to her about it. I did. I did actually message her about it and I told her that the ship tag made me uncomfortable, after my mom was messaging me, it was super uncomfortable. And after her manager had- I don’t- her manager reached out to Yocci. I don’t know why. I think some people were also confused that it was Yocci’s art. It wasn’t Yocci’s art. Her manager had just messaged Yocci because he knew I was friends with Yocci, which is also very strange. I don’t know why they didn’t just ask me or my mom. Maybe that in their mind came off as too clouty, but what they were doing was too, they knew what they were doing. It was very calculated. Everything was calculated for the sole goal of getting interactions to grow, which is something people do. That’s why people make fan art, but when it’s done so blatantly like this in such an uncomfortable way, that’s where it becomes a problem. So her manager had reached out to Yocci saying like “Why didn’t Silver’s mom retweet this? Do you know?”, in case I had talked to her about it. It was very strange. It was very weird and I didn’t want Yocci to have to deal with it. I didn’t want my mom to have to deal with it. It was very uncomfortable. It was very stressful. I get stressed very easily and it hits me really hard. And I don’t want to deal with things like that.”

Red messaged Yocci because she was our only friend in the vtuber space at the time, and she was mutual friends with Silver. Silver has always had her dms on Twitter closed, so I couldn’t reach out to her, and I wasn’t going to message her mom directly about unretweeting my art since that seemed like it’d be even weirder than asking a mutual friend their opinion. It had nothing to do with “being too clouty” like Silvervale is projecting onto me. None of this was calculated and it’s crazy for her to think it was. At the time, I was a nobody in this space making fan art for people that inspired some aspect of the start of my vtubing journey.

Red did not ask why Silver’s mom didn’t retweet my fan art. Silvervale lied to her viewers about this two days in a row.

26:53 - 28:26 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=1613

“So I had messaged her. Let me find it. I messaged her on Twitter and I reached out and told her that I was super uncomfortable with the ship tag and I didn’t want to interact with it, and it was very uncomfortable for me because I didn’t know her and she was like “Oh my god, sorry, I totally didn’t mean it to come off that way”, but she did. But she knew that the only way for me to interact with it and get those clicks that she wanted on that tweet would be if she deleted it and reposted it without the ship tag, which is what she did. So I commented on that art like she wanted me to because I didn’t want to escalate. And that’s the first thing that ever happened that made me really uncomfortable and put the thought in my mind that she wasn’t a genuine person. And yeah, that’s where it started. That’s where it was very strange and very uncomfortable and very manipulative, but I didn’t tell anyone other than my mom and Yocci. And that was always something that was in the back of my mind and why I didn’t want to interact with her.”

Silvervale was looking for the worst in me from the start and completely twisted my actions towards her into some malicious, clout driven endeavor when that’s not at all what happened on my side. Silver never liked me, and she said as much. She said she didn’t want to escalate things, but just like with Mythic in 2023, she could’ve just ignored the situation and moved on, but she felt the need to say something.

In the image of our dms she showed on her stream, you can literally see her message acknowledging that her mom unretweeted my fan art, and not the story she claimed. She couldn’t have misremembered what happened after going back to find these messages to show on stream. She chose to lie about it.

Silver said my fan art “was always something that was in the back of (her) mind and why (she) didn’t want to interact with (me).” So she lied to me directly in this message. She held a several year grudge against me over a misunderstanding that I sympathized with her over and fully complied with fixing.

32:13 - 32:38 https://youtu.be/q1qLtjRNQeY?t=1933

"My biggest concern is about you guys. I want you guys to be fully informed about everything and I want you guys to be comfortable and for you to know what’s going on with me because you guys are my whole world. You’re what I build my life around, and I want to make sure that you guys know everything that’s going on with me.”

I agree with Silvervale. I believe everyone should be fully informed about everything.

——————————

In Conclusion: Silvervale

I was not jealous of Silvervale, I did not obsess over Silvervale, and I did not copy Silvervale. For years I have been harassed for being her lesser half, and my existence was discounted as a poor ripoff of someone else. The lengths people went to convince themselves I did everything to copy Silvervale throughout my career, down to copying her laugh, are the same lengths my friends must’ve gone to to convince themselves I was somehow sabotaging them for years. Neither was true. My insecurities about these comments ate at me for so long. I’ve had to go to similar lengths just to avoid getting harassed over these comparisons. I’ve only ever wanted to get along with Silver, but I got off on the wrong foot with her because of my mistake in my original fan art post, and she never forgot that. Once it was apparent that Silvervale wasn’t willing to show me the kindness and respect I showed her, and that I couldn’t expect her help in ending these hateful comparisons between us, I resorted to agreeing with Red to ask Nano to stop making models for her. Eventually, one of the biggest things we were compared over wouldn’t be an issue anymore. What we did was wrong, no matter how Silvervale treated me, but she quite literally lost out on nothing due to my actions.

I didn’t have a problem with Silvervale herself because of other people’s comments about us. My problem was with the way she treated me opposite to what she said to me when I did nothing to warrant it. She pretended to be friendly, then ghosted me, restricted me from her chat, and blacklisted anything to do with me, all without ever saying a word directly to me about how she really felt. Regardless of how I felt about Silvervale, I never did anything so petty to her. I made fan art of us together. I asked her to hang out offline once. I asked her to collab once. Over the course of two years, that was too much for her.

Silvervale claimed she was “very direct” with me when she wasn’t, so let me be direct with you.

Silvervale is a master emotional manipulator. If Shylily claimed I was a narcissistic manipulator, then I don’t even know how she’d describe Silvervale. She effortlessly lied directly to her audience she claims to care so much about through her crocodile tears. She manipulated them into giving her the support she felt I was taking from her for years. On stream she would lie about me, then manipulate her viewers by saying how awful and stressful everything was and how uncomfortable and anxious I made her. She repeated that exact thing over and over again, turning me into the big bad wolf I never was, ending with how much she cared about and loved her fans. She manipulated the majority of her mod team against me, and even emotionally manipulated one of her mods for the sin of trying their best to help her out with something she asked for help with. Silver couldn’t take accountability for her own actions towards me and lied about them to everyone when I was already down.

Silver had to lie about everything she experienced with me because if she told the truth, it’d show her being at fault, not me. There was literally no reason to lie about what happened with my fan art from 2021. I was already canceled, but Silvervale wanted to make me look worse for no other reason than that she could. She said anything she wanted about me because I was the only one who could refute it. I drew fan art of us together and she took it personally, and held it against me ever since. Silver’s been so full of spite towards me that if she wants to claim she wasn’t lying about everything, then she’s deluded herself into believing an alternate reality of twisted fan fiction where I’ve been the cause of all of her problems and her own personal comic book villain. She was never willing to bury the hatchet, until she was able to bury it in my back. How can anyone trust anything Silvervale says after this?

Silvervale resented me for what she saw as me trying to use her, stealing her viewers and mods away from her, and being just as successful as her in my own right, despite just being her “copy.” She became adamant to turn her mods against me, remove all mentions of me from her Discord server and Twitch chat, refused to do something as small as reply to each other on Twitter, and couldn’t bring herself to even thank me by name when I raided her as to not give me any public validation. She could only see my words and actions in the petty, threatened way she chose to interpret them in. I was nothing but kind to her for years, and instead of just telling me to fuck off like she truly felt, she was two faced, and then lied to her chat about her willingness to be direct. She pretended not to see my supportive messages to her for months while she lied to her mods about me and soft banned me in her chat for simply saying hi every now and then. She expressed she didn’t like getting harassed over comparisons to me either, but she never could acknowledge that simply getting along could’ve helped end that for both of us. I never expected her to do anything with me, just to treat me like a person. She was seething over my existence alongside her, and blamed me for every inconvenience she’s suffered in her career ever since I wrote #sindervale in a long deleted tweet. But she claimed she was the one that broke my brain. Maybe if she looked in the mirror instead of glaring over at me for four years, she would’ve recognized the problem.

Just like every other situation I’ve discussed in this document, the issues with Silvervale were due to a severe lack of communication. A refusal to communicate. Silvervale didn’t start my cancellation, but once it was in motion, she jumped on board to throw as much fuel onto the fire as she could. Ever since her “years long abuser” was taken out of the picture, and Silvervale "reclaimed her community from me”, she’s been much more active than she’s ever been, now doing hand cam streams and even planning to cosplay. She’s been profiting off of all of the lies she told about me, just like Nano, who’s making a brand new model for her right now.

——————————

A Pattern of Behavior Speculation

Silvervale did not like me. It’s very clear by her own behavior over the past few years, her own mods accounts, and her lies.

My second debut anniversary was on 6/25/2024. It’s very likely, evidenced by her own words on stream and the account of one of her longtime mods, that she canceled her stream on 6/24/2024 because of my celebration subathon, meaning she knew when it was.

In August of 2024, my bikini debut and merch drop coincided with the week of Silver’s birthday debut and merch drop, an important event for her where she debuted a similar pair of outfits to my 2.0 and demon designs from the year before.

Her pixel merch drop was presumably completed and ready to release at any time almost two months ahead of the eventual launch date on 4/11/2025, and just so happened to be released a week after my AFK merch drop on 4/4/2025.

I got to be canceled for my anniversary this year on June 25th, but I was supposed to be launching a limited edition label of Pyro Power with a promo card on that day, both with art drawn by Nano, planned as far back as February.

6/26/2025 - Silver had the same bikini debut and merch drop I had during her birthday week and merch drop last year, a day after my anniversary this year.

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1938417915566719312

During her stream about me on 4/29/2025 she said that, “we plan out our drops like the whole year, so I have like a whole year of really cool drops planned.” , and in 2024 she had her birthday drop planned as far back as the start of the year too. In almost all cases Gamer Supps lets creators choose when they want their drops to be.

Her bikini debut and merch drop was already put together before my cancellation, and she would’ve been able to schedule it whenever she wanted. If the pattern of back to back releases was to continue, I believe Silver planned this at the same time as my drop to spite me and overshadow my anniversary, the same way I’m sure she felt my bikini drop did on her birthday week last year.

Another thing I noticed were the unusual amount of similarities in our beach background environments, which were both done by the same artist.

Her beach background from June 2025:

My beach background from August 2024:

A screenshot from her debut stream with her beach bar overlay:

A screenshot of my debut stream from August 2024 with my beach bar overlay:

But she broke me?

——————————

And if she didn’t make it clear, Silvervale “prefers to not do collabs”, and doesn’t want any “transactional relationships.”

9/26/2025

https://x.com/shylilytwitch/status/1971585032776274183

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1971602674559914086

Birds of a feather.

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Aruuu

Aruuu’s tweets for reference:
https://x.com/DeputyARUUU/status/1916639157079642534
https://x.com/DeputyARUUU/status/1917034611743330723

Posted after my apology on 4/27/2025 at 7:42 PM EST

Posted after my apology on 4/28/2025 at 9:54 PM EST

Aruuu took the opportunity to speak out against me and lie, claiming that I used her as a tool to get to Silvervale, and that’s all she ever was to me.

I met Aruuu during a Twitch Rivals event in September of 2022, and I met her in person with Red at TwitchCon the following month. At the con, she mentioned that she knew Silvervale while we were sitting by the VShojo booth. This was the first time I learned this, and I didn’t “notice they were mutuals” like she claimed. I told her I was planning to go to her meet and greet the next day. I had nothing against Silvervale at the time this happened, and I wasn't motivated to meet her by “deep hatred” like Aruuu claimed. I chose to invite Aruuu to come with me because I was nervous to see her myself, but I was going either way. Red was with us, but he stepped away to the side when we saw Silver. While Aruuu, Red, and I were waiting in line, or right after the meet and greet, Aruuu was the one who suggested the idea of a “canine collab” between us two and Silver, even though she claimed “I pushed it onto her” in her tweet. Since it was a verbal conversation three years ago, I don’t have any evidence of this other than Red and I both being able to corroborate it.

However, Red told this exact thing to Nano in May of 2023:

5/10/2023

After the con, I asked Aruuu about the idea to see if she was serious, and she happily asked Silver about it. At the start of December, I asked Aruuu again about the collab to check if she’d heard anything about it. She said “Let me message her right now!”, which she admitted was a lie in her tweet. Aruuu never said anything else about it and I didn’t ask her again. This in no way changed my friendship or view of Aruuu. She said “by 2023 our interactions nearly stopped”, but yet we continued to message each other on and off over the next 8 months. I even asked her to voice in one of my lore videos in May of 2023, and when she was hesitant about being a part of it, I reassured her I still wanted her to be. It was around that time Aruuu fell out of vtubing and we grew apart. The last messages in our dms were from her asking me about doing the IT escape room at TwitchCon that year. Although I never replied to her directly, us and a group of friends did plan and do the Saw escape room there that year, which was organized in a separate Discord server.

I have no idea what she’s talking about in her tweet when saying “(Sinder) made it clear irl that she didn’t even like me.” I would see Aruuu at conventions and events, and every time I’ve interacted with her I always treated her as my friend. She hasn’t messaged me, and I haven’t messaged her. But now it’s because I was always just using her to get to Silvervale. I messaged her about the collab she had the idea for twice, ever, almost a year before we stopped talking. Silver had no obligation to do anything with us, and I didn’t hold the fact that the collab never happened against Aruuu. Her suddenly thinking she’d like to come back to vtubing, in the same tweet she lied about me when it was popular to do so, is extremely opportunistic.

Below are the entirety of my dms with Aruuu.

——————————

Everything is in chronological order, and all dates and times are in EST.

I’ve censored any private information or names of people who aren’t directly involved.

Screenshots that include messages that were in any of the documents are highlighted with a red border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

——————————

10/7/2022 - 10/11/2022 - Messages during my trip to TwitchCon.

10/8/2022 - I asked Aruuu if she wanted to come meet Silvervale with me. I was going to the meet and greet myself either way.

The image of us meeting Silver that Aruuu posted later that day. I did not make my own tweet about meeting Silver.

https://x.com/DeputyARUUU/status/1578889655377743872

Here was Silvervale’s reply to Aruuu’s tweet.

https://x.com/_Silvervale_/status/1579547425991454721

10/11/2022 - I messaged Aruuu on my way home from TwitchCon if she was actually planning to ask Silvervale about a collab together, which she did. I said “Were you still thinking about messaging Silvervale?” because the collab was her idea.

The screenshot of Aruuu’s dms with Silver that she sent me. Silver never got back to Aruuu about this, and Aruuu never brought it up to me or Silver again.

10/24/2022 - Here is the vod of the collab Aruuu and I planned together.

https://youtu.be/kYIxSL7s0lQ?si=ldk1FEqHfVd469h7

11/11/2022 - Between the messages above, Aruuu and I had another collab with a couple of our friends that was planned in a group chat.

https://youtu.be/DHcP3hwEjNA?si=ChxRYpVzRNfTXF7w

11/30/2022 - I asked Aruuu if she was okay with me getting a skeb of us together.

12/2/2022 - Almost two months after TwitchCon I asked Aruuu if she’d ever heard from Silvervale about the collab. In her tweet, she admitted she never actually asked Silver about it again, and neither of us brought it up after this. Two days earlier on 11/30/2022 I messaged Silver on Twitter about hanging out off stream, and doing so reminded me of the collab with Aruuu.

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Spite

Spite’s document for reference: My Experience With Sinder

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 12:29 PM EST

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1916167855998919074

I’m very sorry to Spite for the harassment she’s gotten over the years for absolutely no reason other than being similar to me. I know how it feels to be called a copy, or inferior version of someone else when you know it’s not true. I disliked Spite for what I thought was her copying me, and I was harassed for being similar to her too, just not nearly to the degree I was with Silvervale. I never reached out to talk things out with Spite, and I should have. I’m sorry. I’ve never condoned or told anyone to harass any other creator, even if I’ve ever held anything against them myself.

I lied when talking about Spite in my apology. I knew Red had talked to Nano about her in 2023. He had gone as far as to ask her not to work with Spite. It was not something I had anything to do with, but I was okay with it after he told me Nano agreed. I lied so I wouldn’t make things worse for myself and admit to more than I was being accused of at a time when everything was crashing down for me. I’m sorry to her for being unknowingly excluded from working with Nano because of how I felt about her.

I believe Spite was contacted by Shylily and compelled to make a public statement about me. It’s made up of allegations without evidence, and is purely based on conjecture. She’s profited off of these baseless accusations since making them against me. If Spite was never shown the screenshots of Red asking Nano not to work with her, which I feel Spite would’ve included in her document, then she made her statement over one screenshot of Red’s dms talking about her from May of 2023. At no point have I ever stolen or copied anything from Spite. Besides Red, I’ve only talked about my grievances with Spite to a handful of friends. Following her on Twitter is the extent Red and I have ever been “watching her”, and I haven’t cared about what she was up to beyond mid 2023. I moved past all of this a long time ago and I wish no ill will towards Spite.

——————————

Every topic is separated and is in chronological order, and all dates and times are in EST.

I’ve censored any private information or names of people who aren’t directly involved.

Screenshots that include messages that were in any of the documents are highlighted with a red border.

Screenshots that are directly of or taken from another document are highlighted with an orange border.

Dates, and important messages within any screenshots, are highlighted in yellow .

Quotes from my apology are highlighted in gray .

Red’s own comments on anything being presented are labeled and highlighted in blue .

Any sections based on speculation are labeled in pink . ——————————
Copying Spite

The first thing I want to show is the evidence that I didn’t copy Spite’s designs or outfits at any point, including the blue fire merch artwork I have of myself.

Original Design

12/16/2020 - My original character design was finished. My reference sheet also describes my blue flames.

2/9/2021 - I posted my full reference sheet on Twitter for the first time.
https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1359316528290742276

Spite made her Twitter account in May of 2021, about three months after my post.

6/27/2021 - I posted my “png model” that I was using to stream from 6/15/2021 until my model debut a year later on 6/25/2022. It had an alternate blue version I used sometimes too.
https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1409286012174540800

My first ever vod in YouTube Studio with the upload date.

7/3/2021 - As far as I could find, this was the first time Spite ever posted her character design on Twitter.

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1411400418752700416

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Demon Design

11/16/2021 - Since it’s my more fantastical outfit, this was when I first brought the idea of my demon design to Nano. The idea came from seeing Froot’s evil alternate design a year earlier in December of 2020, and I knew I wanted to have a similar outfit since then.

12/13/2021 - The demon design was started.

Here are all of the references I gave to Nano:

2/27/2022 - The original demon design was finished about four months before my original model debut on 6/25/2022. This version of the design never became a model.

7/15/2023 - The demon design was updated and the model finally debuted on this date.
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Summer Outfit

6/14/2022 - Red gave Nano the references for my summer outfit in their dms before I had even debuted my first model on 6/25/2022. It was designed to cover my already designed bikini outfit to be safe to use on Twitch, which you can see the straps of on the model’s neck and hips in the image below.

7/20/2022 - Spite said she worked with her model artist on her new outfit. There is no fire in Spite’s ears in this image of her, but they were on her final model when it debuted.

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Merch Artwork

11/12/2022 - I described what kind of artwork I was looking for to the artist. I asked for it to be “partially grayscale but with bright colorful highlights and details.” It’s public knowledge who made this artwork, so I’ve chosen not to censor their name here.

12/6/2022 - After receiving the first draft I decided I wanted to “try something with my blue flame coloration with a limited color palette instead.” Another artist I was working with on merch art was making something with my normal, orange flames.

12/17/2022 - The artwork was finished for the merch drop that launched on 12/25/2022.

The reason why a blue fire design was chosen was because my whole first merch drop was themed around my two fire colors. I suggested the limited palette because I thought it'd be a good look for the clothing it was planned for. When it was done, I recognized that the finished piece could be mistaken for Spite, but I really liked how it came out and didn’t want to change it. Any major changes to the art would’ve delayed the entire drop too.
https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1607113188801134592

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Heavenhound Outfit:

8/13/2023 - I submitted my commission request to design my heavenhound outfit to the artist. The request form was opened on 8/9/2023. It’s public knowledge who designed this outfit, so I’ve chosen not to censor their name here.

https://x.com/epebe_/status/1689325600815685653

The design references I submitted:

8/24/2023 - 12/29/2023 - My dms with the artist up until the design was actually started on 1/4/2024.

1/4/2024 - The artist contacted me to start my heavenhound design and we worked on it over the next few months.

4/19/2024 - After working on it for the past few months, the base design was almost finalized.

4/29/2024 - Spite designed her Greek goddess outfit on stream.

5/24/2024 - The final design and reference sheet were completed. This model debuted almost seven months later on 12/15/2024.

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Sleepy Outfit

8/10/2023 - The first time Red brought up our idea of a comfy, gamer, pajama outfit.

4/20/2024 - Spite debuted her outfit that has a hoodie and side bangs.

11/24/2024 - Red asked Nano about doing a pajama outfit to debut alongside the release of my AFK flavor on 4/4/2025.

1/23/2025 - Red gave our references to Nano in our project server.

Here’s the final model design. Our full outfits weren’t shown in Spite’s document. The only similarities between our outfits are that they both have hoodies with zippers, shorts, and hair over one eye.

Spite only showed these outfits close up next to each other, because when zoomed out, it’s much easier to see there’s no basis for this accusation. Here is the image she used in her document:

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Tweets

Here are the two instances Spite pointed out in her document when I tweeted at or around the same time as her own events. The first being one of my debut teaser tweets, and another an asmr tweet.

Debut Teaser

5/12/2022 - Two days before my teaser tweet, Red messaged me when he made the teaser image.

5/13/2022 - Spite tweeted about her debut happening the next day.

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1525113641401319425

5/14/2022 - I posted my debut teaser. I couldn’t find anything that showed that I posted it when I did because of Spite. It was a Saturday about a month before my planned debut date.

In my apology I said:

“The first thing (Spite) mentions (in her document) is a debut teaser in 2022 that was apparently posted on the same day as her original debut, which I honestly don’t know if at the time this was intentional or not. I don’t know when I first discovered Spite and it could’ve been after she debuted.”

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1525529760411095042

——————————

ASMR Post

9/22/2022 - Spite announced her first ASMR stream for 9/24/2022.

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1572963931743834112

9/24/2022 - I posted art of Tashi and Sinder on Twitter to advertise my ASMR channel I was still trying to keep up with.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1573797510006689793

I had been working on a few new ASMR videos before this post was made since it had been almost two months since my last upload. I always kept up with my one video per week ASMR schedule, but since debuting as Sinder, I hadn’t been. Two days after this post, I uploaded a new video, followed by two more over the next couple weeks. My tweet had nothing to do with Spite’s.

——————————

There is one tweet I found that I know I made in spite of her. This was after six months of what I thought was Spite copying me, and being compared to her and harassed for being similar. It was wrong and petty of me to do this.

1/10/2023 - Spite announced her new outfit debut.

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1612860509648293890

1/12/2023 - On the day of her debut, I posted my blue merch artwork.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1613629246609494016

Spite tweeted when she went live.

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1613643456882016258

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Spite Copying Me Speculation

I would also like to show my point of view and why I thought Spite was the one copying me back in 2022 and early 2023, which led to Red asking Nano not to work with her. We were the only two prominent hellhound or cerberus themed vtubers at the time all of this occurred. This section should be considered speculation, the same as Spite’s entire document was about me. Everything presented here could’ve been sheer coincidence, and I don’t have any evidence proving it was otherwise.

Before 6/25/2022 - Spite’s designs, with the one on the right debuting on 5/14/2022.

6/25/2022 - My original model debuted.

7/11/2022 - Spite came into my chat to introduce herself and gave me bits, so she knew who I was. This was the first and only time she was in my chat.

Here’s my vod showing this: https://youtu.be/FHvn6qOgcLk?t=5073

9/3/2022 - Spite’s new model debuted.

She said in her document it was worked on on 7/20/2022. There are no ear flames on Spite in this image.

——————————
5/14/2022 - My debut teaser, which happened to be posted on the same day as one of her model debuts.
https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1525529760411095042

8/29/2022 - Spite’s new model debut teaser for the model above.
https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1564251530978623489

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Before and after 6/25/2022 - I had an animated version of my hellhound running to the right as an alert on my stream. I had it on my pre debut streams as well, but you can see it at my debut here in both colors.

https://youtu.be/nVTH74aH7wg?t=1379

9/7/2022 - Spite posts animated art of her other two cerberus heads running to the right. I thought she used this for her alerts too, but I couldn’t find any clips of it to prove that. Hers also has fire in the ears, on the paws, and a brightly colored tail.

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1567497927282642944

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6/27/2021 - My “png model” that I was using to stream for a year from June of 2021 until my model debut in June of 2022, and its alternate blue version.
https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1409286012174540800

10/17/2022 - Spite posted artwork of her new design by her model artist.
https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1582081015488487424

——————————

~1/12/2023 - Around the same time as her new outfit debut, she also started using the fire emoji in her Twitter name when she hadn’t before.

This snapshot from 10/3/2022 on the Wayback Machine shows her without it.

And this snapshot from 3/12/2023 was the earliest one that shows her using the fire emoji.

——————————
I’ve always had an alternate blue fire color toggle as part of my design. It was on my reference sheet and the biggest and most well known gimmick of my original model. I used it frequently on stream. This was before editing and changing model layer colors was a built in feature of VTube Studio.

9/29/2022 - I made a post emphasizing my two fire colors.

https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1575653680782921728

10/23/2022 - Spite started using an alternate red coloration of her new model, which she continued using from then on. I don’t know if this was the first time she used it on stream, it could’ve been earlier, but it’s the earliest I could find her posting about it.
https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1584246646904619008

Here’s a full image of her new red coloration.

1/5/2023 - I posted about my two different colored shirts, focusing on my two fire colors. https://x.com/SinderVTuber/status/1611211138594910212

1/18/2023 - Spite posted an image of her new outfit focusing on her blue and red colors about two weeks later.
https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1615756037386027009

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1/23/2023 - Red’s first conversation with Nano about Spite was five days after Spite’s post above. He asked her not to work with her, and Nano gladly agreed not to. Red only told me about this after it was done. It wasn’t something we talked about beforehand, but I was okay with it. Nano never said anything about this to me and we’ve never talked about Spite. I shared the feelings Red expressed here since he was the only other one who knew how I felt. What he said about negative comments I was getting was true.

This was not included in Nano’s or Spite’s documents at all. Since they didn’t say anything about it, I chose not to either. I lied about not knowing about Red’s conversations with Nano about Spite to try and not make things worse for myself, but I still accidentally alluded to it because of the mental state I was in.

This was what I said in my apology:

“Once again, I had no involvement or knowledge of Red bringing up Spite to Nano in 2023. My only personal involvement with excluding someone specific from working with Nano was Silver.”

This was the 1st of 4 total times, with 3 different artists, I had ever specifically asked anyone to not work with someone else, which are all presented in this document.

Red: I started the conversation as if we were asking Nano to do this, like I would any other time.

Red: But then tell Nano “I just wanted to ask if you’re okay with being 1 Hellhound exclusive.” and, “I feel really bad asking you something like this.”

Nano and I have never talked about Spite. Here’s me searching “spite” in my own dms with Nano:

——————————

5/10/2023 - The only other time Red ever talked about Spite with Nano was in the middle of another conversation they were having about Silvervale.

Red: Spite only came up in this conversation because of what Nano said about “being moved by spite.” I was talking shit about her with a trusted friend, but I didn’t lie to Nano about anything I said. I told her what I believed to be true. I’m sorry to Spite for talking about her like this.

7/11/2022 - Like Red said, Spite came into my chat to introduce herself and gave me bits.

9/22/2022 - Spite’s tweet that Red refers to in his dms with Nano. It was posted on the same day as her ASMR announcement I showed above.

https://x.com/SpiteVtuber/status/1572972672052793344

——————————

My Design Elements and NyanTales’ Claims

As I stated in my apology, I was very possessive and protective over my design and its details before and around the time of my first debut. My fire and its colors changing effect had never been done on a vtuber before and were my most unique design aspect. I was stressed and worried I’d miss out on capitalizing on those features first since my debut took a year and a half to happen after my character design was finished.

Spite included an image of her messages from NyanTales on 1/25/2023 in her document where she talked about an incident we had over my design.

The situation she’s referring to happened in September of 2021, four years ago, and nine months before I had debuted my first model. It was very early on in my career and the first time I had experienced someone copying me and my design. This was settled between us and we both went our separate ways afterwards.

This is all I said about NyanTales in my apology. I was wrong about the year this happened, which goes to show my composure at the time of writing it. My debut was 6/25/2022, but this happened on 9/10/2021:

“(NyanTales is) an ASMRtist who at one point posted a hellhound oc for one of their upcoming ASMR videos, and it was undoubtedly created using me as a reference. This was right after my debut, and like I said, I was very protective of my design elements being unique to me and I overreacted. Shortly after, I apologized and they agreed to adjust the character design and I thought the matter was settled.”

I wasn’t going to say anything more about this than I did in my apology, but since NyanTales’ own tweet about this situation had almost half a million views when I took this screenshot, before it was deleted, I’d like to go over her claims about what happened.

Here was the link to her tweet: https://x.com/TalesNyan/status/1916167752471003396

Posted on 4/26/2025 at 12:29 PM EST, at the exact same time as Spite’s document.

This was the artwork she presented to the public. It’s used in her ASMR video uploaded on 7/19/2022. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oU3toh3opaM&ab_channel=NyanTalesASMR

However, this artwork of her hellhound character is not the one there was a problem over.

9/9/2021 - Here is her original quote tweet about this character design on the Wayback Machine. In her messages to Spite, she called this character a dog girl when she called it a “Hell Hound girl” here.

Here is the original artwork. It is not the art she presented in her tweet on 4/26/2025. I was upset with how overall similar this was to my design, not only because of the fire in the ears.

And here’s my original design for comparison, taken from my reference sheet.

I don’t know why she didn’t post the actual artwork there was a dispute over in her tweet, other than to try making me look worse, because the video with the correct character artwork in it from 1/4/2022 is public on her YouTube channel. This is what the design was edited to look like after we settled things. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L_uoIwwD9JQ&ab_channel=NyanTalesASMR

In her tweet, she claimed I “sent my entire following to attack (her) because (she) made an ASMR roleplay with this hell hound OC”, I “made (her) delete every tweet regarding it after it happened”, and states “smaller creators like (herself) were just intimidated into silence.”

First of all, I didn’t send anyone to attack her, and this was long before she made an ASMR roleplay with this OC. She made her tweet that the character design was finished on 9/9/2021.

9/10/2021 - Sometime after seeing NyanTales’ tweet, Red messaged an artist friend of ours for advice about it since they dealt with a similar situation in the vtuber scene recently. This was their entire conversation.

It was after this that our friend acted on their own and commented on NyanTales’ tweet to defend me, with another couple of our friends joining in.

I messaged the friend Red reached out to after they commented on the tweet.

And in a group chat with that same friend, Red, and another friend.

I never sent anyone to attack and harass her, or retweet the post or any of the replies. What I did was like my friend’s comments and at some point reply myself, although I have no clue what I said back then.

I messaged NyanTales that same night to work things out privately, where I allegedly “made (her) delete every tweet regarding it after it happened.”

Below I said “you should be careful with what (artists) give back to you in the future. It could lead to another situation like this with someone else,” and it sounds a lot worse reading it back now than I meant it back then. I asked her to remove only the artwork tweet until revisions were made, followed by her saying “I’ll remove my tweets if you remove yours”, which I agreed to.

Below I pointed out that the only people that made rude comments on her post were a few of my friends, and she acknowledged I wasn’t responsible for what they said.

Below, I asked if she’d be deleting her replies too, since I already had after she said “I’ll remove my tweets if you remove yours.”

She messaged me again on 10/18/2021 with the art revisions.

For more proof against the claim that I “sent my entire following to attack her”, here’s her original tweet from 9/9/2021, before my friends commented on the 10th. You can see it has three comments.

And here’s one of my friend’s comments on their post a day later on 9/10/2021. Their tweet was posted at 5:50pm EST, but this snapshot shows the time in PST. NyanTales’ tweet now had eight comments.

And searching on Twitter for replies to NyanTales’ from 9/10/2021 to 9/11/2021 shows two total comments, both from friends defending me. There were a handful of negative comments on her tweet at most, far from her claim that it was “my entire following.”

Regarding the size of “my entire following”, she also said “smaller creators like (herself) were just intimidated into silence.” I did not intimidate her into silence about this as is shown in our dms, and when this happened, we were both creators of similar size.

Here is her YouTube channel size from 9/14/2021.

Here is my ASMR YouTube channel size from 10/12/2021. Sinder was just a Twitter account at this time.

This entire situation with NyanTales was sorted out years ago and had no reason to be brought back up.

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I am aware I did not and do not have the exclusive right to have fire on my character design, specifically in my ears. It is my most iconic feature, but that doesn’t make it only my feature. Your vtuber character design is something that represents you, and in an IP driven world, your design is very important to your brand. When someone adds similar details to their own design, or their design looks very inspired by yours, it can feel personal, like they took part of you for themselves. As I grew, I became much less concerned about other vtubers using fire elements like mine. I’ve seen many new vtubers with fire in their ears, and many adding the swirl too, but fire with a swirl has always been a common trope. While it’d bum me out when everything around that detail looked as if it could’ve been taken from me, I recognized that I probably inspired a lot of people to design themselves that way. I do not and have not held it against any vtubers who have fire on them, in their ears, have it change colors, are hellhounds, or have any other design element they share with me after moving past my feelings about Spite in 2023.

My friends would sometimes come to me about vtubers they’d seen that they thought were copying my fire features, like here, which made me feel justified in feeling bad about it, like I wasn’t alone. Nobody likes to feel like someone is copying or ripping off something as personal as their vtuber design. Not me, not Spite, and I’m sure not Silvervale either.

At some point before I took the screenshot above, this friend deleted a message that I replied to, which is shown in this image from the day these messages were sent. I don’t know when or why they deleted it. The hour discrepancy in the time of these screenshots was because I was at an airport in CST at the time.

I have friends with fire on them, friends with fire in their ears, and friends with fire ears. It never bothered me to have that in common with them.

Here’s an example with one of my friends from 3/15/2023:

And with another friend on 4/1/2023:

I remember having another conversation being happy about another friend having fire ears, but I think it was in person last year since it wasn’t in our dms.

Here was another one of my friends coming to me on 12/15/2024 about a similar design they were planning to one of my outfits, and I was excited for them:

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Message To The Pyro Pups

To any current or former Pyro Pups, I’m so sorry to each and every one of you that I’ve disappointed. I can imagine what it must’ve felt like to have someone you look up to be revealed as a monster, and your community torn apart. I made a poorly put together statement and disappeared, leaving you all angry, confused, and lost. Many of you lost faith in me. I’m sorry I haven’t said anything sooner, but I hope now you can at least understand why.

I’ve received messages from many Pyro Pups who were hurt. Some of these people I personally knew and had met in person. It broke my heart hearing how many of them viewed me after this, but I understand. To any Pyro Pups who choose not to support me going forward, I can accept that. Thank you for everything you’ve done for me over the years. I’m glad I could be your o-kami oshi for the time I was. I only ask that you continue to love and support your new favorite creators the same way you did for me.

I’ve also gotten lots of messages from Pyro Pups in support of me, encouraging me to go on. To those of you who’ve continued to believe in me, thank you. I appreciate you keeping the fire of the community burning all this time. I’ve read your messages and they’ve given me the hope that I could make it through this. You’ve shown me that there’s something to come back to. That includes the moderators who’ve stuck around and managed my Discord server and the community in my absence. I can’t thank you enough for your help keeping everyone together.

To anyone who’s sent hate or harassment “in support of me”, you are not a Pyro Pup. You are not my fan. You are deplorable, disgusting, and I do not want anything to do with you. I’ve never condoned or encouraged that behavior from anyone, for any reason, and the circumstances haven't made me sacrifice my morals. That goes for anyone who does the same after this document is posted. What’s done is done, and regardless of what I’ve said in this document, it’s not an excuse to harass anyone named here. Leave them alone or you will be removed from my community. I want to sincerely apologize again to anyone who has been affected by these people.

The Pyro Pups have been the best community I could’ve ever asked for, and I’ve been incredibly lucky to have them. They have never been just numbers to me. I love going live and talking to them for hours on end. Hanging out with them made me smile when I was upset, and they’ve always been there for me. They’re the reason why I was ever able to do any of the cool things I could. Not only have they shown me immense kindness for the time I’ve been streaming, they’ve done the same for each other. They have each other’s backs, help each other when they can, encourage each other, and are a positive force to anyone they interact with. I’m happy I could inspire them to do good, make friends, and tap into their creativity. They’re all so talented and I’m grateful for the vast amount of fan art I’ve gotten from them too. Even if they aren’t supporting me anymore, or if I was no longer around, I know now that being a Pyro Pup will continue to mean much more than just being a fan of mine. They’re incredibly strong, loving, and I’m very proud of them. I will always be indebted to them for everything they’ve done for me.

Red: Hey gang, I need to apologize to you all too. It’s my fault any of this happened in the first place. My mistakes sent Sinder into hiding and left you all questioning what to do. I’m sorry I caused all of this. I hope you can still support Sinder and the projects we create in the future. Thank you to those who’ve stuck around. Your support has been a big help.

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Looking Ahead

Earlier this year, my world fell apart. I lost my friends, my fans, and opportunities I could’ve only ever dreamed of. But sometimes things need to fall apart in order to rebuild them back better. I’m choosing to look on the bright side. I needed something to break me out of my cycle of working all day everyday, and adjust my lifestyle for a healthier work life balance. This was a long overdue reminder that the friends I’ve made should’ve been the most important thing in the world to me, and I should’ve put more time and energy into my relationships with them outside of the work we did together. They were supposed to be by my side even when I’m not Sinder anymore, and I lost sight of that in my never ending pursuit of the next big thing. It forced me to recognize that through my own actions or inaction I was hurting people that only ever wanted the best for me. If ever given the chance, I don’t plan on making that mistake again. Despite everything that’s happened, I forgive my friends. I don’t hold anything against my friends who weren’t involved, the artists I’ve worked with, business partners, and former mods for anything they did after this all happened, and I’m sorry for how they were affected by all of this.

I’ve had more than enough time to think everything over, over and over again. Obviously, the root cause of almost everything that happened was because of poor communication, between Red and I, between me and my friends, and between them and me, and poor decisions made under pressure. I was under pressure from Red about his feelings about Bao that made me distance myself from her, pressure on myself that made me choose VCard over going to Numi’s concert, and pressure from harassment and my insecurities that led to trying to cut off Silvervale from Nano’s models. Red and I both had plenty of time to talk things out with people, and neither of us did. Everything that was made public could’ve been settled privately. This has set an awful precedent for the entirety of the vtuber community, which I feel has become more divisive and drama filled since this happened. I’ve always had problems communicating with people. I will do my best to be more open about what I’m thinking and feeling to them, even if it’s difficult, to avoid any other situations like this from ever happening again. Red and I have both made mistakes. We aren’t perfect people, but we aren’t evil either. We’re going to try to contact anyone we owe an apology to personally, even if an apology to them was in this document, and hope to move on.

I don’t blame the internet for being the internet, making memes at my expense, and countless news and drama channels farming this for views. It’s just business, and this is just another Google doccy. But I didn’t want to hide from this for the rest of my life, and I couldn’t let my legacy be decided by anyone other than myself. Now there’s nothing else for me to say and I can finally look ahead. I’m ready to return to doing what I love, even if it’s on a smaller scale. I want to stream again. I want to create again. I want to inspire people again. I want to be someone people can look up to again. I love being a vtuber, and I love being Sinder. Thank you for reading, and thank you for waiting.

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