Dimension 20
Fantasy High: Extra Credit
Parties are Weird but Friendship is Dope
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Brennan: Dimension 20 presents Fantasy High Extra Credit, a weekly talk-back show where we chat about newly streamed episodes of previously behind the paywall only episodes of Fantasy High, leading up to the beginning of our live, weekly Twitch game with the original Dimension 20 cast in a returning adventure in the world of Spire. My name is Brennan Lee Mulligan, I'm your humble host and dungeon master, and I'm so excited. I'm gonna make a couple quick announcements 'cause we've had some questions on Twitter about important stuff. Real quick, just hang on with me! Number one. If you're wondering, hey, do I subscribe to Twitch? Do I go to Dropout? What am I supposed to do? I'm gonna tell you what's going on. You can always watch the stuff that we are airing live on Twitch for free. Just go to the Twitch channel. Just go to DropoutLive and you can watch the stuff that we're airing while it's airing. And if you're like, I'm not gonna be there right when it's airing, I live at the North Pole. The times, the time zones, they don't work. Though I guess you're in every time zone if you're at the North Pole. God, that's crazy. The important thing is, if you can't watch it when it's live, what you can do instead is, you have to subscribe to our Twitch, and you can see the VOD. It'll be captured and go up later. So if there's a live play show that we're doing or one of these talk-backs, you can catch it there. If you're a completionist, however, if you want to see everything, you gotta sign up for Dropout. Anything we do on this Twitch is going to go to Dropout. So if you're someone who's a Dropout subscriber? (blowing a kiss) We love you. Thank you for subscribing to Dropout. You're always gonna get everything. Anything we do here is gonna go to Dropout. It may be three days. It may be seven days. But it's gonna get to Dropout sooner or later. So you will always get all of the live shows we do here on Twitch, you'll get all our talk-backs, all that stuff. So, we're airing it, you get to watch it for free on Twitch. If you want to subscribe to our Twitch channel, you can watch our Twitch stuff that we do any time, and if you want to see all the Dimension 20 stuff that there ever is, you gotta head over to Dropout.tv, sign up. Cool. With me today are our incredible guests Rick Perry and Lou Wilson!
Rick: Howdy.
Brennan: Rick Perry is our production designer, our set and mini guru. The maestro extraordinaire behind all of the incredible battle sets, minis, and the dimensional dome itself. Rick, thank you so much for being here today.
Rick: My pleasure, thank you for having me.
Brennan: And we have, of course, Mr. Lou Wilson, AKA Fabian Seacaster, AKA Kingston Brown!
Lou: There it is. Hey, thank you so much for having me today. I'm excited to be here.
Brennan: Ugh, beautiful. Gang, we've just screened episodes 11 and 12 of Fantasy High here on Twitch. Holy moly, these were some big ones. This was after Murph shot Daybreak in the head, and we had to do a couple months of downtime all of a sudden.
Lou: Still the most, I think, intense. The murder-suicide in episode one was like, whoa. But those were NPCs. They're grown men. It was a real moment to watch Riz, the Ball, run up and brain a guy.
Brennan: Yes, our high school freshman, shooting an unconscious man in the skull, and ending his life.
Lou: Yes.
Brennan: Now, Daybreak did try to create the apocalypse.
Lou: Fair, so it was a service. But also, hot damn.
Rick: Incredibly violent episode.
Lou: Yeah. That whole fight. And the torturing of Ragh Barkrock that happens?
Brennan: So, yeah, that's where we start the episode, is with Gorgug underneath Ragh, putting him in a headlock, and we have this incredible moment of, at the beginning of this episode, this is a couple lines that Ragh says here. I think he says the thing of, "If anyone messes with you guys..." You conscript him to help iron out your rep at the school. And he says "If anyone messes with you guys, "I'm gonna fuck them."
(Rick laughing)
I think he also says, "And when Coach Daybreak tells me to jump, "I say fuck, please," or something along those lines.
Lou: It's like, yeah. 'Cause I remember Ally's response immediately after is, "Yeah, that's the phrase." But yeah. Yeah, Ragh was real off on that one.
Brennan: Real off. And then we did this time skip. We had the gifts were revealed to be from Fabian.
Lou: Yes.
Brennan: Fabian's wonderful gifts. Which Lou contacted me outside of game.
Lou: I was feeling very emotional toward my fellow PCs, and truly was like, Fabian would buy them something. He would! It's just like, it's in his nature. He's got all this money, he has to do something with it. Of course, I buy my friends dumb stuff. So, yeah, I just emailed Brennan. And I think I had a list. I created all the gifts, and I was like, give him this and give her that.
: That's awesome.
Lou: Yeah, it was a whole-
Brennan: And then I gave them all magical properties.
Lou: Yes.
Brennan: Which I was like, this is so cool and sweet. I definitely want to give them all these magic items. So this was a really fun ep too, because we did this timeskip, and I had to move all of this information around. I'll give you guys a little behind the scenes here. It's something that I don't think has ever been addressed, even on the Discord.
Lou: Is this an exclusive?
Brennan: This is an exclusive. This is a Twitch exclusive.
Lou: Talk-back exclusive!
Brennan: What ended up happening was, this was an episode where Sklonda Gukgak was basically like, we are following the palimpsests, trying to get them extradited from the Harvestmen who have brought them to Highcourt. Right? And what's interesting with that is, that was a total fabrication of the bad guys. The palimpsests obviously never left Elmville. But there was an element of that storyline where I don't think you guys ever discovered that that was a total fabrication. So if anyone's ever been wondering, that was all set up by KVX and everything else. That was like, that idea of where the palimpsests have gone. That was a total fabrication that the PCs actually never undid. So that's a little exclusive here.
Lou: That's a classic Brennan intense story level thing that me as a PC, just... It's clean over my head.
Rick: When does that stuff occur to you, that like...? Is it...?
Brennan: You know, you're trying to run this vast conspiracy in your mind that maybe people plumb the depths of, or maybe they don't. Or maybe they just run up into the middle of it and stab all the right people, and all those secrets... That's the thing, is a lot of wheeling and dealing can be cut short by just getting stabbed in the head.
Lou: There you go, dude.
Brennan: Lesson for all of you guys at home. We end that episode with the party at Ostentatia Wallace's house. The classic line from Aelwyn Abernant, "I came here to fuck."
Lou: Immediately one of the best lines in the whole show, if you ask me.
Rick: I like the keelhauled, or whatever that is?
Lou: Oh, "You ready to get keelhauled tonight?"
(Brennan laughing)
Hell yeah, I am! God, that and "You're a nasty little..." Like, there's so many. The one rule, somebody has to be invisible at all times, and if they get stabbed, they have to drink?
(Brennan laughing)
It was very cool. I feel like it's one of those very classic high school moments reimagined in the Fantasy High setting, and I just wish we hadn't been fighting so much so I could've got my first kiss or whatever.
(Brennan laughing)
I guess I did get my first kiss.
Brennan: You did!
Lou: I guess I was looking for my first hookup. You know?
Brennan: Yeah.
Lou: As the imaginary 16-year-old boy, Fabian Seacaster.
(Brennan laughing)
I was just dying.
Brennan: That was such a funny choice for you to make Fabian into Aelwyn. Was there ever a moment where you were like, "I think Fabian's..." Or was it immediate?
Lou: It was like, and I can say this and not have it be weird. But it was like a straight-up, this person reminds me of my dad. I love my dad, I'm sexually attracted to this person. I'm not sexually attracted to my dad, but I'm sexually attracted to this person because of the qualities they have like my dad.
Brennan: Yeah. Like, I have aspirational affection for my parent, and then here's a person that embodies those aspirational aspects,
Lou: Yeah.
Brennan: And is also hot to me.
Lou: It's like somebody who dates somebody who looks like their mom. Or has qualities. It was very much, my kneejerk reaction was, this person reminds me a lot of a female Bill Seacaster. I'm attracted to this. Not me! Not me. Him! (Points to fabian picture behind him)
(Brennan laughing)
Is attracted to this. And so it was no question in my mind.
Brennan: No questions.
Lou: I was in love instantly.
Brennan: You're like, oh, attractive magical elven Bill Seacaster. Let's make it happen.
Lou: Please.
Brennan: Incredible.
Rick: That was a great turn.
Brennan: Speaking of the party at Ostentatia Wallace's house, Rick, this house set.
Lou: My god, dude! I was watching the episode and having a flashback. Like, you built some amazing sets in your time, Rick. But this one was, like... I remember them pulling apart. I was like, yo! It was incredible.
Rick: Thank you.
Brennan: Especially given the fact that it was a magical combat, and I had someone with the Blink spell that allows you to move something like 10 or 15 feet in any direction. And all of a sudden I go, like, oh, this in a house is unbelievably effective.
Rick: Yeah.
Brennan: The idea of fighting a wizard teleporting around in a teenage house party is just such a rich and compelling idea, and when you made the set, Rick, it was unbelievable. All you're trying to do when you have a cast like the one we had for Fantasy High is be like, how can I give these people the most fodder for incredible moves? And we got Gorgug tackling the fire elemental into the beer pong table, the back-yard wrestling move.
Rick: Yeah.
Brennan: We got the swimming pool, the motorcycle up the stairs.
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Lou: Yeah.
Rick: That was awesome.
Lou: Thanks, Rick.
Brennan: So, this is awesome, to have a chance to get you in front of the camera.
Rick: Sure.
Brennan: Talk about, because this was our first season. Now, we're all old hat at this, but when you were first setting down to create the battle sets for season one. Not only this particular fight like, but for that whole season. What were the big unexpected challenges, moving into doing this? And then specifically for this episode.
Rick: Sure.
Brennan: When did it come together for you?
Rick: I mean, I will say, even now, because of the stuff that you guys do, it's such a mashup of weird things, and it's never very conventional, as far as what kits and minis and stuff are available. So it's still always curveballs coming. But that season, this season, Fantasy High was... I don't know. There's a lot of modern kits out there, so it's really just about sourcing, trying to figure out what's available, and how can we change it up and add to it, and make it match the idea. The house set is a kit from a company called Sally Forth, and so they actually make a house like that, that you can buy per floors, and so we got that, and sort of changed it up a little bit, and we added some texture to it. You know, put some details and stuff in. The back-yard stuff, a lot of that stuff is... (laughing) woo-hoo!
Brennan: Rick Perry the god! Thanks, Thursatool.
Rick: Thursatool.
Lou: Hell yes.
Brennan: Thursatool, very correct.
Rick: Thank you. Yeah, so a lot of that back-yard stuff is things from model railroad stuff. Because people are decorating their model train stuff. And then some things were straight-up customs. Like the beer pong is...
Lou: Yeah, I was gonna ask. Can you buy...?
Rick: No, I mean, that one was maybe the thing I'm most proud of in a way, just 'cause it's so bizarre. But we work with Adam Levine, who's the guy who prints all you guys's-
Lou: I'm sorry, did you just say you work with Adam Levine?
Brennan: The dude from Maroon 5 is part of Rick's...
Rick: He prints minis for us.
(Brennan laughing)
Lou: That's unreal, dude.
Brennan: He's passionate about TTRPG man
Lou: Yeah, exactly
Rick: Yes, he likes Warhammer... No, different Adam Levine.
Lou: Okay, fair enough.
Rick: He lives in North Hollywood, and he prints stuff for us. But he also is able to make some stuff himself in 3D. And so we worked with him to build that little beer pong table. He printed 'em up for us, and Shane, one of our painters, painted 'em. But yeah.
Lou: Incredible.
Rick: A lot of fun.
Brennan: Dude, yeah. That house, that was so... And I was so glad we get to use every level.
Lou: I was gonna say!
Brennan: The roof.
Lou: We do end up on the roof.
Brennan: Yes, yes, yes. Man, some of those athletics rolls were brutal, getting up on that thing.
Lou: Riz takes a full fall.
Brennan: Takes a full fall. Gets blasted with lightning a couple times. It's a rough time for our boy Riz. So, we wanna turn it over to you guys. Get some questions, both for our master set designer and mini designer, Rick Perry, and also for Mr. Seacaster himself. This first one's from Inevitableruffian.
“Question for Rick. How did you get into D20? Are you someone who does props and miniatures for shows, and you're applying those skills to tabletop miniatures, or are you practiced specifically in tabletop miniatures and sets, and were searched for…”
That's all that fits in the box right now, that's all I can read.
Rick: The question's too long!
Brennan: Question's too long. Oh,
“and sets, and were you searched out for that?”
Thank you, Inevitableruffian.
Rick: Thanks for the question. I've been doing art department work for I think almost 15 years. This is the first show I've ever done miniatures for. So, I'd worked with College Humor on some sketches a little bit before this, and then the first producer, Lou, called me in because of that.
Lou: Me?
Rick: Lou Stinnette. Lucrezia Stinnette.
Lou: Oh, that's right. Sorry. You know a lot of people with names that are other people's names, who it would be unreal if they were those people.
Rick: Throwing stuff out there. Yeah, so I feel like maybe I am kind of an expert on miniatures and tabletop stuff. But I played D&D before, and I DM and so on. So this was a really exciting project to get to work on.
Brennan: Well, I remember talking to you originally, and the second that you were like, I'm a gamer, I play with minis. Even though it hadn't necessarily been something you had done as a production designer before, you were very familiar with running games, and when we talking about the design for battle sets, it was so clear that you understood what they needed to be able to do, both for the camera as a production designer, but even I would say as significant as that, what they needed to be able to do for the game.
Rick: Sure.
Brennan: How they needed to be engaging and fun, and provide these opportunities. And truly, so many easter eggs and toys are buried into these sets, it's incredible. There's so many opportunities. The fucking ladder that comes loose in the mithril fight. All these amazing opportunities.
Rick: Thank you.
Brennan: Sometimes, even one or two extra, like a vulture, that ends up being so interesting. These guys can't fucking get over it!
Lou: I literally... Do I try and land next to the vulture? Or close to the vulture?
Brennan: I feel like no-one gets gotten as bad by the vulture as Beardsley. Ally truly... You can look back and see them, like, full... Even after I'm like, the vulture has flown away, I have removed the vulture from the set, the vulture is not part of it.
Rick: There's no vulture.
Brennan: There's no vulture.
Lou: Well, you have to understand, you had planted birds in the episode as being something.
Rick: The owls.
Lou: This is your fault.
Rick: My fault.
Lou: You said winged things. The both of you are to blame for this. Don't put this on these PCs, all right? We were following the trail of breadcrumbs, and I'll tell you, at the very end was the full loaf of bread that was a vulture on top of a water tower, okay? I'll defend Ally to the death, okay?
(Brennan laughing)
They were right to ask questions at that vulture.
Brennan: I guess I'm wrong. I guess I'm wrong. Soupcat asks for Rick,
“any dream idea for a set design? Some crazy cool minis.”
Rick: Always (laughs). The show basically is just crazy sets and minis, I think. So stay tuned, we're doing some exciting stuff right now.
Brennan: We're in the middle of shooting season five right now.
Lou: Goddamn.
Brennan: Where we do some stuff with the sets that are truly... One in particular I'm thinking of is mind-blowing. To me, at least. Of like a full chain of something you just haven't seen in a D&D actual play show before. Rick and I have also talked because I think aesthetically, we're very into the idea of hot suns, hot guns, space, sci-fi stuff. And we have just shot the shit about ideas, not even with a story in mind, but just like, what kind of battles could you do in a sci-fi, outer space kind of setting?
Rick: Yeah, concepts for ships, and battling on the surface of the ship, or just weird planets. Weird, you know, I mean...
Brennan: Things to do with gravity and scale and all the insane stuff you can do in terms of space battle and space warfare.
Rick: Got ideas for that.
Brennan: Extremely dope stuff on the horizon. Chieflanevis. Thank you, Chieflanevis, for the question.
“For Lou and Rick. Who's your favorite NPC from both Fantasy High and Unsleeping City?”
Bearing in mind that we are only at episode 1.08 for Unsleeping City. So spoilers ahoy.
Lou: 1.08 is the-
Brennan: Subway.
Lou: Trip to Nod?
Brennan: Yes, the trip to Nod. The subway battle on the trip to Nod.
Lou: Great. I think mine... Fantasy High, I feel like is obvious. It's Bill Seacaster. It's my father. And just I think our dynamic as well, playing with you, as me, as Bill, gave me the most satisfaction. And was just the funnest. You know, the sea shanty, and all the craziness that was Bill Seacaster was just so fun to play. And then for Unsleeping City... Rick, do you have one? I feel like I need a second.
Rick: I think I have two, and they're probably conventional. It's two that were mentioned on the last talk-back thing. I think Gilear for Fantasy High.
Lou: Of course.
Rick: I mean, Seacaster is...
Lou: No, but Gilear is-
Rick: Singular. But Gilear is just that sweet spot of, like, weirdo...
(Brennan laughing)
Just a really amazing character. And then for Unsleeping City, I think Wally, maybe.
Lou: Wally is.
Brennan: Wally's right up there yeah. We have to have Wally and Gilear in the morning. The sports radio. Come back to Wally and Gilear in the morning! No, I will say too, playing those characters. Gilear is so fun to play. We talked a lot about Gilear on the last thing, as just so joyful. And brought so much joy to Emily and the other players. Bill, playing Bill was so much fun, and I think it came across in the scenes I did as Bill that I was like, this is kind of my... DMs have their NPCs that are kind of like their PCs, in a sense, where it's like, oh, this is the character-
Rick: Proxy for you.
Brennan: It's a proxy for you. Or I'm playing this character. And I remember the idea of playing a character that is fully, on the alignment chart, I would say chaotic evil. And loves his son more than anything in the world, and it is a pure, unadulterated love, was so much fun to play. And the whole thing of how insanely impulsive and violent he is. To me, the thing I like about pirates as just a concept is the idea of, it's the chaos of no impulse control. Of the most swingy a mood can get. Where I'm just laughing so much in this moment, and then a moment later I'm like, I'll have your throat! You know, like, argh! This insane, like, oh god! This person is truly as tempestuous as the sea. Like, in a moment they can go from one thing to the other. And just playing, I think the scene where Bill really locked in for me was after the Black Pit, when you guys all go to the house. Because he has the great scene with you where he, after school, after the attack, was like that. But the moment that I locked into Bill was when you were like, "Papa! "Don't give drugs to my friends."
Lou: Yeah, he gives snuff to all my friends.
Brennan: For a second, it was like the dad and the pirate captain perfectly interlocked and he just went, "When you have a guest in your home..." made giving drugs to your friends part of his dad thing of like, this is how you show hospitality to people. I was like, I am fully locked into this character, and I get this guy.
Lou: I'm going to go real deep cut. I mean, don't get me wrong. I love Wally. But I will say, and I guess it's also tied into my excitement at the beginning of Unsleeping City. It's truly the minorest of characters I don't think we ever see again. Pete's landlord's son.
(Brennan and Rick laughing)
I remember his name was like, Lakshmi.
Brennan: No, his name was Yagdash.
Lou: Yagdash! I truly had a moment when you were like, your portrayal of Yagdash is like, this person. 'Cause I remember they were such a, like... Pete was like, "Yo, lie for me, Yagdash." And Yagdash was just like, "No." And I remember being like, oh, this is going to be great. I can't wait. Yagdash is a big one. I truly, it took me a second to get there, but then I was like, I really love Yagdash.
Rick: That whole sequence is amazing.
Lou: Yes.
Rick: All that.
Brennan: That's the thing about Unsleeping City, too, that I think was really interesting. Unlike Fantasy High, where in Fantasy High, we establish who these people's families are, and that's the characters that you see. It's like, these are high school kids. When you're in high school, the people that you see is the same rotating cast. With Unsleeping City, there's a tremendous amount of like... Hey, there's eight million people that live in this place, and you can go a month without seeing somebody. You can go a while without seeing somebody. So there's a much broader cast of characters, that you see more infrequently, with who the heroes of the Unsleeping City are. So Yagdash, yeah, he shows up in that first episode and hasn't showed up again. I remember him, this idea of kind of a chinstrap beard.
Lou: Yes.
Brennan: I kind of see him in a velour jumpsuit.
Lou: Yes, Yagdash!
Brennan: You know, like an Eastern European, kind of. Is he a gangster, or maybe not? Maybe he just wants to be. Maybe he hangs out at the same place where gangsters are, and he cashes in on that. And it's this very funny idea, this guy's like, "I thought you were drug dealer?"
Lou: Yes, exactly.
Brennan: What I love about him is, the moment where he can't lie for Pete is not because he's trying to screw Pete over. It's because he's truly like, "What? I thought you were gangster!"
Lou: I got mad love for Yagdash.
(Brennan laughing)
Truly, my one qualm with Unsleeping City, not enough Yagdash.
(Brennan laughing)
Rick: Pete's doctor is great too.
Lou: Yes!
Brennan: Oh, Dr. Primjitzski. That's right! Yes, I love Lugash Primjitzski. Yeah, he's Dr. Lugash, who Kingston Brown of course loves. He's a great doctor.
Lou: That's right.
Brennan: Cutestkitten2.
“Bill Seacaster would 100% bribe colleges to get Fabian into the best college. Not even a question, just a factual-”
Lou: That's a fact. We have him bribing in the show.
Brennan: Canon!
Lou: He has history of bribing.
Brennan: Canon.
Lou: That's, of course, if he was alive and not exploded.
Brennan: Exactly. Apcarnist. Thank you, Apcarnist, for the question.
“In terms of pacing the story and ensuring hitting plot points and whatnot, what is the unwritten agreement like between everyone? How far off the rails are allowed?”
Thank you for the question, Apcarnist. So, we have here Rick, who's our production designer, and Lou, who's one of our cast members. And there's an interesting balance that happens here, because in order for us to have the incredible, immersive sets that we have, Rick and I go to work the second the players have created their characters. So, they create their characters. That allows me to know what in the world I should flesh out and what I should kind of prepare. Like, I don't want to plot the season out or put my things in place. In other words, I don't think, as a DM, this is my hot take. I don't think as a DM, you should have a plot before you know who your main characters are. That is something that is totally uncontroversial to say about writing a novel, but weirdly controversial when it comes to D&D, right? Where you'll be like, no, I have an adventure, and they'll make their PCs, and whatever. I'll run them through it, whatever. But for me, that's problematic, because I can't include Bill Seacaster in a Fantasy High story unless Fabian Seacaster is one of the Bad Kids. Why would Bill Seacaster be in Elmville unless his son was going to Aguefort? You know what I'm saying? So, they make their characters and then right after that, me and Rick get together, and we sit down and start to talk about what the season's going to look like. What the characters can face, what kind of battles we want to do. And that's an awesome back and forth that's usually me beating out the story while Rick is beating out, like, here's what we can make, here's cool mechanics, here's what we can kind of come together with, and we'll come up with those battle sets. As we go through them, we will sometimes find an order, and some seasons, that order is completely set in stone. Other times, there's a little flex or wiggle room, in terms of what happens next. I have never had to keep... It's a weird thing. There's a weird balance between keeping things on the rails and letting those guys go wherever they want. Without patting myself on the back too much, mostly I've been able to guess where the PCs are gonna wanna go. And that's not to say that I'm psychic, but a lot of this can just be done cleverly. I didn't have to keep the PCs on the rails too much in Fantasy High, because the story is a mystery. Does that make sense? The breadcrumbs-
Lou: You asking?
(Brennan humming)
No, just-
Brennan: Get in the comments if that doesn't make sense.
(Lou laughs)
But there is an element of, these kids want to solve the mystery. I have these sets that happen in a certain order. So do they have to stay on the rails? Partially. Do I want the PCs to have total freedom to do whatever they want to do? Absolutely. The spirit of D&D is not there if the PCs don't have the freedom for their actions to matter. However, those things aren't as mutually exclusive as they sound. Anticipating what the PCs are going to do, we can philosophically get into ideas about free will and what that means. But for the most part, if you have been careful with what kind of story you're telling, you can give your PCs total freedom and pretty correctly anticipate what they're going to want to do. Because with a mystery, they're gonna go to the next place where the next clue is, and most of the battles in Fantasy High cleave to that, right? So there's a certain degree of that in these campaigns of being able to have our cake and eat it too, where we're able to keep the battle sets coming in the order that they're supposed to come, and the PCs are totally afforded the freedom to choose where they're gonna go. And it's just on me to be clever enough to set up the highest reward for where the next battle set is gonna be.
Lou: Yeah, I mean, I'd agree. With regard to patting you on the back more than needed, but it speaks to the strength of the narrative that the next best thing to do, the next obvious thing to do, is go to the place. And I mean, it's not even raily. It just feels like as a PC who's in it, it just feels like the next logical move. It's like, oh, the information we now have suggests that what we need is at the Durinson Mithril Factory. And you make space for us to go, well, we want to go stop at our dad's house first. Then we wanna go get milkshakes. Then we're gonna go to the Durison Mithril Factory. It's not that we are railroaded into, well, we got what we need. The next step is the Durinson Mithril Factory. It's that we just understand that eventually, we should go to that location.
Brennan: Yeah, absolutely. I think there's more overlap.
Rick: I think too, any good DM, the battles, and even the bad guys they're gonna fight, and all these things are flexible until the moment that they're not. And so it allows you a little bit of, when you're trying to figure out how to get them there, or what the angle is that hooks them in. Usually there's multiple pot vectors that this location or this bad guy has multiple connections to different players, so it seemed to me as an outside observer of those moments, that it allows you to flex and to find really a organic and really intuitive way to pull them into a location for a battle. When we're taping, I sit in the side. My work is mostly done, and I'm listening. It's always amazing to me that I'm looking at the clock of how much time has run by. I know that in ten minutes they're supposed to be at the Durinson Mithril Factory fighting this battle, 'cause we spent a week making it or whatever, but they're doing something so completely different, and I have no idea how he is gonna get them there, and it's always, I'm just sitting like, freaking out. Like, oh my god, what's gonna happen, you know? And every time, it's beautiful.
Lou: Yeah.
Brennan: Aw, shucks. That means the world to me.
Lou: But yeah, we're also great PCs who, when you're like, you got invited to Ostentatia's party, we don't go, "Man, fuck..." Oh, I'm sorry for cursing.
(Brennan laughing)
But we're not like, "Man, I don't need Ostentatia's party." I don't know. To our credit, no. I think we all also are committed and invested in your story, which again, patting you on the back, you've created a story and a world that we are fully invested in, but it's like, yeah.
Rick: It's like a dance or something.
Lou: Yeah, it's like we also want to dance with you, and are excited with where you're taking us, and I think that's the balance that we strike in this series that allows us to do what we do, is that you create worlds that we're invested enough in, that we're like, we'd like to see... I mean, we go to the hospital, and I believe in this role-play episode-
Brennan: The previous, yeah.
Lou: We had a disguise, with a fake pregnancy, and again, Emily making out with an adult man. So, don't act like we don't do what we want, all right?
Brennan: You guys extremely do what you want, and in fact I can't stop you.
Lou: Boom.
Brennan: But you're absolutely right, there's a dance there. You guys are not out to screw me, and that's an important element. You guys are very game, and when I present an opportunity for you, you guys seize it. You are not antagonistic, and that's something that I think needs to happen in games. But I think the mutual trade there, like the unspoken agreement that you're referring to in your great question, the unspoken agreement is this. Your PCs, if they are kind, as my six PCs are, will always take your offers and run with them if on the other side of the bargain, you as a DM never ever force your players into a situation where they feel like they're not playing their character truthfully. So your job as a DM, if you have some rails, if you're running a module, if you have pre-built sets, if there are certain things in mind, you can have some rails laid down. Your PCs, if they are kind and good to you, will see those rails, acknowledge them and go for them, and your payment for that is, you have to return and say, all of these rails are always going to feel like the right choice for your characters. I know your characters well enough to know that this will feel like the most logical course of action for them. Great question, thank you for that. Thicketnymph,
“question for Lou. Did you have any qualms about saying you'd kill Pete in front of Ally? Their response seemed like they had no idea you would say that.”
Lou: Ugh, wow, jump into the Unsleeping City. I thought we were just having fun in the fun zone!
Brennan: In the Fantasy High zone.
Lou: In the Fantasy High fun zone! Look at this fun boy! There's no weight of the world, voice of the people on this young boy's shoulders. Did I have a problem saying it? No, straight up, no.
(Brennan laughing)
I have a problem, I was thinking about this on the ride over here. I truly have a problem with getting too deep into character, and that's not a brag, I truly think it is to my emotional detriment.
Brennan: It's not a problem, it's a solution.
Lou: No, it's a problem, okay!
Brennan: It's great.
Lou: It's truly, like, I get mad at other PCs, as a PC, but then I can't distinguish it from the people that they are, so I'm just mad at... Like, we stand up from the table and I'm just mad at Emily.
(Brennan laughing)
Because I'm mad at Sofia. It's too much. But truly in that moment, I was so comfortable and confident in saying that. I love Ally to death, but I mean, I don't feel like... I'll defend Kingston's actions forever, but it was like, in that moment, for Kingston, I mean, again, I haven't watched the episode recently, so my wording, I'm not But I'm 90% sure Kingston's wording is that if it comes to it, he has no problem doing it.
Brennan: I would love to jump in here and talk about this. We're fully going off of Fantasy High to talk about Unsleeping City now.
Lou: Fully.
Brennan: I would love to talk about this for a second, because I have loved... In the Discord, it has been bumping. On Reddit, bumping. People are talking about Pete and Kingston, the two voxes of New York City.
(Lou laughing)
What I will say is this. Everyone's right.
Lou: Yep.
Brennan: Everyone is right. And if you fall on the Kingston side of things, you fall on the Pete side of things, look. It's even in the logo for this season of Unsleeping City, that this season deals with a lot of themes of binaries, and of opposition and of having two sides to a thing. If you're in that world, and the only information you have is Kingston's information, you would be wild not to side with Kingston. If you were in that world and all you had was Pete's information, you would be wild not to side with Pete, and that's the point, right? Is that neither of them sees the other person's life or their story, and each of them is bringing their own internal biases to what's happening. And I will say this. I love the people who have gone hard in one direction or another for them. The philosophy major in me of course wanted to present a thing of like, who is right and wrong here? This is complicated, right? Look at how intense this is. What I will say is interesting, and I'm going to put some folks that are fans of the show on blast, which maybe I shouldn't do, but I'm gonna put you on blast.
Lou: Watch out, man, watch out!
Brennan: With only love for you, anyone who has been definitively angry at either Pete or Kingston. Anyone who has been like, Kingston or Pete is trash, they were totally in the wrong, has not been able, in my humble opinion, to honestly represent the point of view of either character. The people that are truly are like, "Pete is terrible," have to frame Pete as being worse than Pete actually was, and be like, "Pete killed people." Pete didn't kill people. Pete allowed, through recklessness and not paying attention, allowed bad things to happen, or enabled bad things to happen. Pete didn't kill anybody, so that's that. And on the flip side, people that were like, "Kingston threatened to kill Pete." Kingston did not threaten to kill Pete. Kingston said, "If it comes to it, "we have to put Pete down." So all that that is to say, it's very interesting to me that nobody who is hard on either side has been able to support their point with the facts exactly as they were. And that, to me, is beautiful.
Lou: The one thing I will say, the wording is very strong. I will say. I remember, I think afterward, walking away from the table, being like, put him down? Like, what?
(Brennan laughing)
That was a little hard. That was emotional, but does that happen in the same episode? That doesn't happen in the same episode where I see Liz, does it?
Brennan: It does.
Lou: Okay.
Brennan: That's why! I mean, look, the thing is, if we're gonna extend human understanding to these characters, Pete deserves all the human understanding in the world for having such a... He's homeless and uncared for, and has had everyone turn on him. Pete is a deeply unloved and un-nurtured character, and there's so much about him that people have not done right by him. And on the flip side, you look at Kingston. Kingston's coming into that meeting from literally being hated by... When you look at Kingston say, "I choose New York, ten out of ten times." The ferocity of that statement is a direct line from his interaction with Liz earlier that day. It'd be cool if people weren't bags of emotion based on not only what people had said to them earlier that day but also, like, if they were hungry or not, or had slept or not. We like to think of ourselves as perfectly rational beings, but all that emotional, all these moments that come up, and we go, this is an indelible mark on your character, are affected by things as simple and mundane as a conversation you had earlier that day. And that's how I feel about that.
Rick: Wow.
Lou: Didn't expect to get into it. I am thinking like, oh, this is a whole thing that's been going on online that I haven't really involved myself in, but I have thought a lot about.
Brennan: I love it. To me, it's like, that's what... To have a conversation with that many lucid, brilliant people... All the people that have written about it online, you're all brilliant. I love everyone's takes. Even the hot takes I disagree with, I'm like, god, this is gorgeous. And that's the point. Who would wanna do a story about New York City and magic without having an idea of, New York is... The whole concept of a place as enormous and multifaceted with so many different communities, if you go, like, what is all of this together? Can this possibly come together and be one thing? And if you don't have an element of your story talking about how different people can be in terms of who they are and how they feel, then you're not really telling a story about New York. Nerdydragoncat!
(Brennan laughing)
That's a great name to go to after what we were just talking about.
“Which of the Bad Kids UC”
UC for Unsleeping City... I believe has had the moniker Dream Team, we're calling them the Dream Team.
Lou: Really?
Brennan: Is the name of...
Lou: That's pretty cool.
Brennan: The Unsleeping City.
Rick: Very cool.
Brennan: I'm gonna put my little thumbprint and say, to whatever authority I can claim over these settings after they escape from my little mind into the world? Canon! We're gonna call the Dream Team is the official name.
Lou: The Dream Team! And the Bad Kids.
Brennan: Is the official name.
“Which of the Bad Kids slash Dream Team do you think you'd get along with best if you were placed in a Fantasy High magical NYC setting?”
Lou: Great question.
Brennan: This is hard for you, 'cause you play somebody!
Lou: I play somebody. I mean, I feel like I'm gonna take... I actually don't think I would get along with Fabian. I understand Fabian, and that's why I get him. But I don't think I like him. I think especially the front interaction. I actually think I would really get along with the Ball. Which is why I think Fabian gets along with the Ball in his own twisted way. I actually really, I think Riz and I, would be good friends. Like, Riz would be the nerdiest. Like, would be too nerdy. I would be like a bridge, I would be more social. I would hang out with Riz but then also go be social, but then come home to Riz. And me and Riz would like, you know. Go on late-night adventures alone instead of going to parties and stuff. Like, Riz feels like a lot of my high school time of just me and my friends, parties are weird, but friendship is dope.
Brennan: Parties are weird, friendship is dope. Lou slash Riz, 2019.
Lou: That's my vibe. And then in the Unsleeping City, which one of the Dream Team? That's harder. I guess it's Kingston. Like, I really actually would enjoy hanging out with an older black man who knew everything about the city, and would just take me to cool things and introduce me to cool people.
Brennan: Yeah.
Lou: So, okay, I cheated. I would love to hang out with Kingston.
(Brennan laughing)
Rick: I think for me, from Fantasy High, from the Bad Kids, would be Kristen Applebees or Gorgug. 'Cause, I don't know, I just feel like those are actually people that I was friends with in high school, and would be in art class with.
Lou: You have the shirt on right now.
(Rick is wearing dungarees over a harvest camp t-shirt)
Brennan: Oh, we gotta show the merch. We gotta show the merch. We got the Harvest Camp shirt on.
Lou: Of course!
Rick: And then Unsleeping City? Maybe Pete? I don't know, Pete just seems like somebody that would be, you know. At a art opening or something.
Brennan: I love that, yeah. Pete and Kingston do share knowing people as a trait. They can be like, oh, this person can hang, I love it. Woo, man. I feel like for me, for the Bad Kids, I gotta go either Kristen or Adaine, I think are my two that I would wanna hang with. It feels like, to get into head-canon space with it, I don't know if Adaine would like me as a person, but if she did, it would be cool to nerd out about magic. Also, in this world, if I'm hanging out with them, it means magic is real, which means the first thing I'm doing is going and picking up a book of wizardry, because you gotta.
Lou: You gotta.
Brennan: You gotta! I'm gonna fly! I'm gonna fly. But also Kristen would be incredible, because I would love nothing more than to sit down and talk with Kristen about philosophy, and talk through faith and the understanding of the divine, and that would be a dream come true, just to kick it with Kristen, do some great... It might actually be Kristen, to just do some dope social work, go out and do some volunteering on the town, and then talk about why things are the way they are and how the cosmos works. That sounds-
Lou: Boo, boo.
Brennan: Hurray!
Lou: Boo!
Brennan: Hurray for me!
Lou: Boo!
Brennan: Hurray for me and Kristen!
Lou: Come hang out with me and Riz on a roof somewhere, just hanging out for too many hours.
Brennan: Honestly, late-night coffee with Riz at the diner would be tight.
Lou: The more I think about it, the more I actually think me and Riz would be like, best friends. Like, I actually think me and Riz would hang out a lot.
(Brennan laughing)
Brennan: Perfect. And for the Unsleeping City? I do actually think it has gotta be Kingston Brown for me as well.
Lou: Yeah!
Rick: Kingston's cool, man. Very, very cool.
Brennan: Like, if I was living back in New York and I could go once a week and play chess in the park with Kingston, and just ask him about life and how to be a good person. I think everyone wants a Kingston Brown figure in their life, who is that calm, centered, voice of warm, empathic authority. You know what I mean? There's so many problems with authority in the world at large. The idea of someone who brings an authority born of empathy and perception. That's what I love about wisdom as one of the mental stats in D&D, is that wisdom is keyed into insight and perception, which suggests that high wisdom characters are characters who collect and receive. Their brilliance fundamentally comes from how much they are able to gather from the world around them, which I think is a really beautiful part of clerics and druids within that setting. Libbyn! Thanks, Libbyn.
“Brennan, would you ever consider releasing a Fantasy High source book.”
Lou: The people want to know.
Brennan: Libbyn, I would love to release a Fantasy High source book, and as soon as we get me cloned, or I get the stopwatch from this last battle, where I can stop time and have extra hours in the day, you're getting that source book. But until then... I should say. We actually, there are ongoing conversations about getting a Fantasy High source book out here, and making that happen. It's just a matter of time, and right now we're having so much fun making the actual show that a lot of our creativity and effort is going into that. But don't you worry. There is a very real future, I would say very real not-so-distant future, where you could be holding Elmville in the palm of your hand.
Rick: Wow, cool.
Brennan: The_dark_lantern! Thanks, Dark_lantern.
“For Fantasy High, what was the PC death contingency?”
You saw it! You saw the PC death contingency.
Lou: That is true! It's so crazy, now being, what, five seasons in, and we're filming the fifth series. To think that this series started with two PC deaths, which I had never experienced in my own D&D experience. Like, I had never imagined that death could... I don't know. It was so crazy.
Brennan: I don't know how to communicate how much was riding... That day in my life, I shot Tide CEO earlier that day.
Lou: No way!
Rick: Wow.
Brennan: That is 100% true.
Lou: That's crazy.
Brennan: I shot Tide CEO that morning, and then went to the studio to run the first two episodes of Fantasy High. We shot two episodes a day. It was episode one, The Beginning Begins, and then it was Clash of the Corn Cuties, which is the name of the episode, even though the correct name for those monsters is corn gremlins. And I don't know how to describe. So, Tide CEO hadn't come out, and it was like, okay.
Lou: What's the date?
Brennan: This was February of 2018? Yeah, it was February of CollegeHumor has taken a huge risk on me letting me do a D&D show. (exhaling) Hope this goes good! Oops, a third of our characters are dead! Maybe you should've run fifth edition, I don't know, once or twice, before doing an actual play show, my guy! Why? So the contingency was, nothing. There was no contingency. In my head at the table, I was basically like, two of them are dead, and if you resurrect them, all of the stakes of death fly out of this and everyone knows that you're a fraud.
(Lou laughing)
If you...
Rick: That's pretty high stakes.
Lou: That's intense. I mean, that's a lot to put on you.
Brennan: The cameras are rolling. If you don't bring them back, there are no secondary characters created, and any tenor of levity and fun that exists will be gone for the following because every episode, we'll reference the two friends they made on their first day that died. So all that fun, like, breakfast club vibe will be gone. And I just had to improvise a way to make death matter, and to not replace a third. I have said this before, but if it had just been one, they'd be dead. If it had just been either Kristen or Gorgug, they would've been dead, and we would've figured it out. With two, I went, how do we possibly advance and have this all stay the same? And someone went to look for Aguefort, and I went, here's my shot. Here's my shot. And then Mr. Gibbons and Aguefort, and I narrated, just improvised the whole thing with death and the phoenix egg and all that, and then a life for a life. Hey, Mr. Gibbons, blam, blam. And the second I did that and saw your guys' reaction at the table, I went, thank god. I went like, I got out of that trap.
Lou: Yeah, I don't know. Most of my all-time D&D moments are from this show, but that was, like... I mean, again, that was the first day of shooting this new thing that was already crazy enough. My D&D experience before D20 is not vast, so it was not like I showed up to this and was like, oh, I know what D&D can be. I only had a very small understanding of what D&D's allowed to be. I truly remember when you were like, he points the gun at Mr. Gibbons and shoots, and points the gun at himself, blam. It was like, unimaginable. 'Cause I also think I had a hard time being like, you just killed the principal. You killed the guy who made the speech earlier. Like, it was truly... I mean, the reverse is unimaginable for you. But what you did was truly in the realm of in the impossible for what I thought. 'Cause there was also, oh, this had been a fun, cute, John Hughes-esque story literally up until that moment. Up until that moment, we were jumping, flipping on tables, being awkward, punching corn, and then a murder-suicide happens and it's like, okay! This is different.
Brennan: But that's the thing is, I knew that anything less than that... I knew that I needed that reaction that you just described. I needed that, or nothing else was gonna cut it. I needed something that was such a strong cup of tea, no pun intended with Arthur Aguefort's tea, but I needed something that was such a strong cup of tea that it would make you forget that two people had just come back to life. Like, I needed those two PCs to come back to life with no sense of relief. That's really what I was trying to do, was to have them come back and have everybody, instead of going like, oh, our problems are solved! They're back from the dead! To have two characters resurrected and have everybody go, "We're screwed." Your reaction specifically, which also is one of the undeniably most funny. You're losing your mind. Whenever I re-watch that clip, it was brought more joy to my life than I can possibly describe. You're fully losing, "What is happening? "What did you do?"
Lou: It's crazy! It's a crazy thing. I can't put into words how my brain, how much everything was just kind of flipping. Nothing was making sense any more, because of how cute and fun all of the rest of it had been. When we brained Doreen I was like, oh, okay, that was kind of weird. But when he pulls out a gun and shoots somebody in the back of the head, then shoots himself, it was so much.
Rick: Yeah, I mean, it blew me away too. And still, that episode, I always tell people you have to watch at least to the end of the second episode, because you will be 100% hooked.
Lou: Hooked, my man!
Rick: Totally.
Lou: Like a damn fish.
Rick: Aguefort was, like, one of the pillars of the whole storyline, and you just took it out. You know what I mean? Like he was just a piece of immovable story that obviously was not set up in any way. It was so powerful and awesome.
Lou: How are you railroading us if you can just do that, you know?
Brennan: Well, that's the thing is, it's like, in terms of advice to DMs, it's just like, your PCs are such a force for chaos in the world, as are the dice, as we discovered in that first battle. If you have any hesitation or preciousness over the pieces you do have on your side of the board? Like, I have to contend with you guys, who I'm one person and you're six people. I'm outgunned. And then the dice are not on anybody's side, so I am flanked on both sides by people that are not trying to help me. The PCs are trying to help me in the sense of also wanting good story to happen, but there's six of you, and you have your own agenda. And the dice are nobody's friend. So if you are sitting there further hamstringing yourself by being like, I can't kill the principal. No, anyone can go. Anything can happen. With your own sandbox, man, you better be ruthless. I'm so glad we got to talk about that. Sephyhallow. Hey, Sephy, how's it going?
“For Rick, were the corn gremlins, dot dot dot, meant to be that cute?”
Rick: Thanks for the question.
(Brennan laughing)
Yeah, I mean, I don't know. We kind of went back and forth with them. I think that there was a couple iterations that they were maybe a little cuter and a little meaner.
(Lou laughing)
Somehow, I think it was just like, it was our first thing we were creating. It was a custom 3D print, and somehow we ended up there, and they're amazing, but they are kinda cute, so!
Lou: They do have a true cartoony (barking). That's like...
Brennan: In hindsight, it was the butts. They do have cute little butts on them.
Lou: They have butts?
Brennan: They have little butts. They kind of have a little bulby kinda corn butt, and they're very cute. They're just very cute little corn gremlins. Yeah, when we first made them, it was also like a way into the silliness of the setting, of having a fight, for the first fight of the thing, be like, this ain't your daddy's D&D! To have it be like, oh, we're going to come up with a custom monster, our new mini, the ooze, everything else, and have this be really special.
Rick: I remember too, from the beginning, a lot of times when we start these seasons of early conversations it's like usually there's definitely some specific sets and monsters and things that Brennan already comes with, and other things develop after character creation and through conversations and stuff, but that was one that from day one was always one of the things was these corn goblins, or corn gremlins, and I remember showing you a lot of different minis. Like, is it an imp? Is it a lemure, like a thing? Trying to figure out what it was. And you had a really strong idea, and it came out that way. It's very special.
Lou: Can I ask about one thing?
Brennan: Yeah.
Lou: And about, I guess it's another thing, that talking about it now, I really am interested in where it came from, Rick. Can we talk about the butt hole?
(Rick and Brennan laughing)
Did you make the butt hole? Was the butt hole already there? 'Cause that thing... I'm now thinking about that, and I was so taken aback and so excited by everything that was happening, it has never crossed my mind to realize that you are the man who was like, put a butt hole that Riz can climb up.
Rick: There's like three butt holes on 'em.
Lou: Yeah, and those are active choices.
Rick: I don't remember how they came to be. That was sculpted by Shane Brockway, and I think it was painted by Nate, our lead mini painter. But yeah, I have some pictures of the sculpting thing I can post later, whatever. But I remember, I think we were talking about how it's generating these things, they're coming out of it. I can't remember where the butt hole thing came from, but I remember definitely giving some specific design input to those sculptures, being like, nah, needs a little more this, or...
(all laughing)
Brennan: It was life-changing to watch and see those butt holes, and to see that there were multiple, and scattered over the mini of like, this thing can poop from wherever.
Lou: Dude, gremlins coming out all sorts of holes.
Brennan: All sorts of holes. This one's from Netflixandexistenchill. Hey, Netflixandexistenchill!
Lou: What's up, dude?
Brennan: Thanks for hanging out.
“How's Fabian reacting to the Gilear shenanigans from the live show?”
Lou: Oh, Netflixandexistenchill. I'll tell you, I literally thought about this this morning with the upcoming Twitch stream. And I'm gonna kick his ass.
(Brennan laughing)
I'm gonna kick Gilear's ass, like no joke, I'm gonna fight this adult man, and I'm gonna make you role-play him. I don't care! Fabian's about ready to get expelled. You know, for those of you who don't know what's happening or what's being talked about, subscribe to Dropout, check out the livestream of the Austin show. Gilear gets up to some real, you know. Like, he really steps out of line as far as I'm concerned.
(Brennan laughing)
And I'm gonna... We will have words, we will have words.
Brennan: (laughing) It was so wonderful. Well, 'cause, we had the show at the Bellhouse, which was so fun, and we established Gilear riding on the back of the Hangman's motorcycle, so we decided to have this post-season one canon of him dating, and seriously dating, your mother Hallariel, and how much Fabian hates that.
Lou: So annoying. Brennan has tried to explain to me the logic of it many times, and I will not hear it. I just won't. It goes in one ear and out the other, and it just all is craziness.
Brennan: But that's the thing. That's the nice thing about being the Dungeon Master in an actual play show, is that my ships are canon.
(Lou and Rick laughing)
No, it's very fun to look at Hallariel and Gilear and to me, the logic of it, and actually, people are so welcome to disagree, and I love all the other ships, I know that there-
Lou: Please, everyone. Maybe if we all join forces and disagree...
Brennan: I know there's a-
Rick: Start a petition.
Lou: Exactly! Somebody get on Change.org.
Brennan: There's a very strong, there's this great artist Jules, who's very strong in the Sklonda/Gilear ship. Also a third of our PCs are in the Sklonda/Gilear ship, which are Murph and Emily, yeah.
Lou: At the Bastion market dinner.
Brennan: Hm, this yogurt tastes like potatoes.
(Lou laughing)
Gilear... But the thing is this. There's something about Hallariel being with, no-one is more human than Bill Seacaster in terms of, like, a short-lived, reckless, wild, ambitious, cunning... To me, if you're an elf and you're gonna date a human, and you're gonna marry a human and have a child with a human, it's Bill Seacaster. And after Bill Seacaster, I feel like there's something about being like, okay, I'm gonna just be with this elf. I will never be with anyone who challenges me as much as Bill challenged me, so I'm gonna be with-
Rick: Something different than that.
Brennan: Yeah, with a human Yoplait container, or as elven Yoplait container, Gilear Faeth. And the thought too that, like, she is in the process of sobering up after a 15, 16-year bender, and Gilear would be a better partner for someone who's trying to clean their act up. That's my own internal logic, you're welcome to disagree with that, but that's how I reason that out in my head. But to the original question. So, in the Austin show, it was really fun to have Gilear be disguised as Fabian. Because Lou, sadly, was being a big-time Hollywood guy.
Lou: Yow!
Brennan: And could not join us for that one. But the fact that I got to play Gilear playing Fabian and then Fabian was also, quote unquote, there, at least in appearance, was deeply satisfying for all of us who missed Lou, we wish Lou had been in Austin with us.
Lou: As an audience member watching that, it was very funny. To watch Brennan do me doing my character as his character. But Fabian is furious.
(Brennan and Rick laughing)
It will not stand.
Brennan: Mriley16. Thanks, Mriley!
“Lou, were you always gonna play Fabian, or did you workshop any other character ideas?”
Lou: Hmm, that's interesting. I was not always going to play Fabian. Kingston was more like, I think I walked in and was like, Brennan, I wanna play Kingston. And Brennan was like, Kingston sounds great. And then I made up more characters so that it didn't look like me and Brennan had made a backroom deal in which we were like, Kingston's in. For this one, I remember I came with a couple ideas. I remember I had pitched a half-elven, prissy jock. Or like, half-elven jock, is I think what I pitched. 'Cause we were really trying to get all of the... All of the classic high school stereotypes. And I remember we were like, we didn't really have a jock, and so I was like, I'll be the jock. And I don't know where we got it, but it was like, yeah, why not have him be like, the rich boy? So then we got this prissy rich boy jock. But I remember I also pitched some kind of stoner character, and maybe some kind of grease-monkey mechanic, T-bird kind of character. But I think the way things shook out, Fabian...
Brennan: I remember the mechanic, the gear-head character, and I remember knowing about Johnny Spells already and being like... And I remember also we just wanted someone in a letter jacket.
Lou: Yeah.
Brennan: And so Fabian was, for me, of the ones you pitched... For me, it was gonna be the stoner or Fabian, and when no-one else had a pitch for a jock character, I was like, let's lock in Fabian.
Lou: You did a great job not making it clear. Like, I felt like I could've been... I guess you were open to me, if I really wanted something. But I was very flexible, and as soon as we went with Fabian, it was just so fluid and easy. The voice came very naturally, just the whole thing, the vibe.
Brennan: Yeah, I also would say too that from doing the show, it has made me in my home games want to make PC creation more collaborative. Because I think that in the show we made it more collaborative, because there was this idea of, like, oh, this is not solely for our own enjoyment. We need to have fun for the show to be good, but also we want to make sure that the show is good just in general, for viewers maybe wanna watch. And I realized that it is okay to just have everyone make their character blind from each other and totally isolated in their own, and just show up and you get who you get. But I felt like there's so much strength from the idea of thinking of the party as more than the sum of its parts, and looking at who's gonna be in the game and trying to create or define something around that. Like, I think sitting down as a group and being like, hey, let's all come up with a few ideas for PCs, and then not have our heart set on just one of them, but see what kind of constellation of characters we can create. It might be deeply gratifying. Like, do we sense a theme here? Is it possible that, oh, if everybody takes their second or third character, we actually create something that feels cohesive and like we're all working to purpose? That could be really gratifying, and it's something that I wouldn't have discovered as a DM but for working on this show, which is very, very cool. Kitkatgal37. Thanks, Kitkatgal. By the way, thanks to all our friends in the chat.
Rick: Thank you.
Brennan: You guys rule. We really appreciate you coming and hanging out, and talking about the show with us.
Lou: Hell yeah.
Brennan: Kitkatgal37 asks,
“Rick, what types of set or prop designs have you attempted that ultimately didn't work out? What have we had to scrap, if anything?”
Lou: Ooh.
Rick: I mean, I think from the first season, there wasn't really anything, just in the sense that I think originally, we were talking about having extra sets and backup stuff and scatter terrain, and options. Because we really didn't know how exactly it would work out. So I think we talked about... Did we talk about a diner?
Brennan: Diner, originally.
Rick: Yeah, there was gonna be a diner set.
Brennan: Every season has had concepts that get scrapped.
Rick: Yeah, for the chase, the car chase, we were gonna originally build the-
Brennan: The gas station.
Rick: Yeah. We had that in the mind, but then it was like, oh, you know what? This thing happens on the road, and then the gas station's not there any more. So let's just go to the road. So, stuff like that, I think.
Brennan: Yeah, we had that. We scrapped the goblin warrens idea from the Bloodkeep. From Unsleeping City... The thing with New York that was interesting was there are so many iconic locations within New York.
Rick: It was actually a matter of choosing which ones.
Brennan: Choosing which one was really heartbreaking because you're like, oh, we have 20 battle ideas going into Unsleeping City. I wonder if I... Like a little season five spoilery stuff.
Lou: Don't do... I mean, should I step out of the room?
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Brennan: No, I'll just say that in season five, we've actually, because of scheduling stuff, we actually have had more freedom in terms of battle sets. Like, I've some more cards up my sleeve, which has been very, very exciting. So that's gonna be really, really fun.
Rick: I think, too, just one thing for me. Whenever I'm thinking about these sets, it's like, I have to think about the playability, right? Like people's movement rates and the ranges of spells, and obstacles and attacks of opportunity, and all this sort of stuff I'm trying to built into it, with the concept with you. And also I'm thinking about camera angles, like there's restrictions about how the walls can be, and we know that some elements are gonna be removed for shooting and some are gonna be on the table during shooting, so there's always stuff like that that's creates really interesting design challenge, and is a lot of fun to figure out. With spaces like the Times Square is tricky, right? Because it's like, Times Square is basically an empty space that is defined by these massive buildings. So when you have a board, how you do that? Stuff like that is interesting to figure out.
Brennan: Yeah, having to redo Times Square to be like... Because how big to scale would Times Square really be? Another little not spoiler thing, but for season five, we actually have a combat that is the first combat in Dimension 20 history that Rick and I wanted to play-test with non cast members, go do a private play-test for it. Just because it was ambitious in a way that we hadn't done before, and wanted to make sure that it would work. So there's a lot of thought and work that goes into it. Speaking of, we got another great Rick question. Cassiel, thanks Cassiel.
“Rick, what have you used most for set scratch builds? Foam core, plastic core, or styrine?”
Okay, Cassiel.
Lou: Wow!
Brennan: You're throwing down some jargon.
Lou: Guest DM him, all right? I'm here! I'm intrigued.
Brennan: I'm intrigued as well. Also, this is the exact opportunity to ask this because truly, Rick, there is no person that understands tabletop set building better than Rick Perry. It is not a stretch for me to say that these are the best sets anywhere in actual play.
Rick: Oh, thank you very much.
Lou: Except for maybe that one dude in New Zealand, but he just does the one thing. You know that one dude.
Rick: Oh, yeah, yeah.
Lou: Yeah, that guy.
Rick: The Lord of the Rings stuff?
Lou: Yeah, or like the one, he can flip it. That's pretty cool, but that's very specific. My man Rick does it all. New York, fantasy.
Rick: I wanna take this opportunity, actually, just to say, it's not just me, and I want to give a shout-out to five people that are key parts of the team. It's Sabrina Wichner is our lead model maker. She's responsible for getting all the sets done. Shane Brockway is our lead minis painter, so he does most of the painting, but he also is responsible for making sure everything gets painted and it looks good. Nate Villareal is our senior minis painter. He does all the PCs, all the high-end stuff. Helen Bell is our art premier, who makes sure everything happens. She does all the spell cards and the sheets and stuff, and then also Maxy Bebber is on set during all the pick-ups, all the close-up shots. So there's a whole bunch of us that do it. It's not just me. But we use all that stuff. We don't use plastic card so much, or plastic core. But we use styrine. We use MDF kits. A lot of times it's finding a kit and thinking okay. I can take this and cut it apart and combine it with this other thing. Scratch build stuff. Sabrina's amazing, she can build anything from styrine. The minis are... It's just sorta like whatever gets the job done. Sometimes we buy stuff off the shelf, we 3D print stuff, we do whatever.
Brennan: Hell yeah. I've been, by the way, to Rick's shop. It's incredible. Like, the work going on there is so deeply inspiring and touching. And I don't know about you, Lou, but any time one of the sets comes out I'm just filled with the most like... I get the coolest toys in the world.
Lou: Oh boy. I mean, I'll never forget the first time we saw our minis. I don't know what I... It's weird to think back, now we're really deep into it, but I'm trying to... I don't think I read enough emails about what this show was going to be. I don't think I completely understood the breakdown of role-play, combat, role-play, combat. And I remember coming out that first time and seeing this amazing board that you guys had built, and being like, this is fucking... I just remember first it was just the miniature Elmville. Then it was this board, and it was like, what's happening? Then you gave me this little thing that was like a bunch of information I typed into Gmail that had become a person. And it was just like, I dunno. Again, it's like that level of immersion, and then we just got deeper and deeper, at least for the first season, leading up to when you pull out the fucking... Oh, sorry. When you pull out the Goldenhoard mini, and it was just like, bam! And it's only in watching Bloodkeep, everything just... You just continue to climb, dude.
Rick: Oh, man, thank you.
Lou: It's crazy. I mean, that thing you say about the fact that you guys can make anything. It's like, I truly believe that. I truly believe that anything that Brennan and us PCs think of will find its way. I mean, come on, I picked up a motorcycle, and two episodes later, there's two minis. The motorcycle mini and me on a motorcycle mini?
Brennan: I want to throw out there by the way, that that came from Rick. I was too shy at that point. Again, the show hadn't come out or anything, I didn't know. I was like, this is my first time in a position of kind of running a show. I didn't think to ask that. Rick came up to me and he was like, "So what do you think? Motorcycle by itself and then one with Fabian on it?" And I was like, you can do that? And Rick's like, "Yeah, I already ordered it. We're done, we're good." And I was like, this is incredible. Incredible! But that, speaking of on the rails. I had no idea Fabian was gonna jack that motorcycle, and that's the kind of thing you need to honor. Like, that's the balance of on the rails, off the rails, of like, okay. We have certain battles that we need to get to, but we can absolutely set my man up with a sick, demonic motorcycle.
Lou: Why not, dude?
Brennan: Also a character that, as much as Rick was like, "I'm gonna get that mini." I had to improvise the whole character of that. It's such an incredible collaboration when you know that everybody on the squad is just going at 100% capacity, and it's a dream. I mean, projects like this don't...
Rick: Yeah. Thank you guys so much for the love. I mean, all of us in the shop, we love working on the show, it's a huge opportunity for us, and we are getting to collaborate with you guys, which is awesome. You guys are amazing, and you know. I come back after taping to the shop, and they're working on the next week's thing, and I'm just telling them everything that happened, and everybody's with bated breath, "Oh, really?" 'Cause also, we make stuff, and we don't always know. Like, I didn't know what Adaine was all about. I kind of had an idea what she was kinda gonna look like. We made this thing, like, had no idea, you know? So there's a aspect of it that it just doesn't really come alive until you guys do your thing.
Brennan: It's so incredible.
Rick: I was gonna say too, that earlier we were talking about the railroading thing, and I think you touched on again is that. And something I respect about you as a DM, and that I've learned from you, is that you really never say no, in a way. Which is almost like, maybe it's an improv thing or whatever. It's like, people, PCs, come to you, and you were like, "Okay, yeah," even if it's something that's gonna take the story way off the rails, or way in some other direction, you always say yes, you always validate it, and take it and fold it in, and enrich the gumbo that you guys are all making together. It's really inspiring.
Brennan: That means the world to me, man. Yeah, it's like, you have to find a way to... There is that juggling of, the PCs are not here to listen to your story. They are here to tell their story, and when you have people as talented as the six people that are the PCs, the main cast of Dimension 20, the best thing you can do is get out of their way. The only thing I'm trying to do is adjudicate their desires with a material world in the narrative that is challenging and presents obstacles. Because otherwise, their achievements don't matter. Their achievements only matter in the face of adversity. So it's this weird thing where I'm always trying to balance. I wanna make your dreams come true, and I want them to come true in a way that is challenging and hard, because they won't matter otherwise. And just finding a way to balance that, it's almost always, it's like, you know you have to get to a yes. As a DM, I have to get to a place where I can say yes to the players. It's about figuring out how to say yes so that they feel they've earned something and not been given something. HustlerBojenkins
(laughing)
It's a great name, HustlerBojenkins! Thanks, HustlerBojenkins! Your name made me smile.
“Brennan, super quick and easy.”
Thanks for telling me how your question's going to be up top.
“I know this is silly, but I must know. Are you my freakin' dad?”
I'm gonna see how much time we have left for this question. Hold on a second.
Rick: Roll an insight check.
Brennan: Uh, can you go ahead and roll an insight check? And Charlie, in the chat. Charlie, can you let me know what the insight check is that HustlerBojenkins rolls? Everyone else in the chat quiet down for a second 'cause I wanna make sure that we don't miss HustlerBojenkins's role.
Lou: Shh, shh, shh.
Brennan: So Hustler, you roll an insight check, and then Charlie, if you can put that insight check up in the chat window. That's gonna be great, and we'll take care of it that way.
Lou: This is, there's tension.
Brennan: There's tension here.
Lou: There's a lot of people.
Brennan: Are you serious?
Lou: What?
Brennan: You rolled a nat 20?
Lou: Did you actually roll a nat 20?
Brennan: Did you roll a nat 20?
Lou: Okay.
(Rick laughs)
Brennan: Hustler. HustlerBojenkins. I have bad news and I have good news. The good news is that the lesson of Fantasy High, and I think the lesson of maybe D&D in general, is that family is not about the people you are blood related to. Family is about the family you choose. It's about the family that you find, and that finds you. And in a very real sense, we are all passengers on spaceship earth, and I firmly believe from the bottom of my heart that we are all family to one another. So wherever you are, and to everyone watching this, you're part of my family, and I hope you feel the same way about me, and also about all of us and each other. The bad news, HustlerBojenkins, is that you're gonna have to change the name HustlerBojenkins, because you're real name is Hustler Mulligan.
(Lou and Rick laughing)
I'm your dad. I'm your biological dad.
Lou: Wow, this is a big episode of this talk-back. Is this what happened last week?
Brennan: Not even a little bit!
Lou: Did you find out you had a son last week?
(Brennan laughing)
Did you find out you had a son?
Brennan: Sephyhallow says
“Brennan is our dad!”
Kids, I couldn't be more proud of you all. Your dad gives a big thumbs up. That's all for this Fantasy High Extra Credit. A huge, enormous thank you to Rick Perry and Lou Wilson.
Rick: Thank you.
Lou: Happy to do it. Thank you so much for having. Good to hang out with you, Rick.
Brennan: Tune in next week for another talk-back. You also got the regular Drawfee streams on the channel. DropoutLive is popping with activity. Make sure to spread the good word, tell your friends. Go over to YouTube and check out Dimension and subscribe to Dropout, and we've got a bunch more in store for you guys. Thanks for tuning in.
Rick: Bye!
Lou: Woo!
Captions extracted by: gluegunshots
Edited by: OliverC