Disney Dish with Jim Hill Ep 494: How did the Imagineers just update WDW’s “Peter Pan Flight”
August 26 2024
Welcome back to another edition of the Disney Dish podcast. It is me, Jim Hill. And this is our show for the week of Shmursday, August 26, 2024.
On the show today … We talk about the two Disney Villains who made their debut at the “Oogie Boogie Bash” just last night at California Adventure. We also answer some listener mail. And then – in our main segment – we discuss the changes that were just made to “Peter Pan Flight” at Florida’s Magic Kingdom. With the hope that this dark ride will then be seen as a bit more respectful of Native America’s culture & traditions.
Just so you know, folks: This will be a solo edition of Disney Dish this week. Last I heard, my co-host – Len Testa – was somewhere out in the Gulf of Mexico. On a boat, one would hope. But then again, Mr. Testa has repeatedly told me of his long-held secret desire to just chuck it all. Give up the apartment in New York and his home in Celebration and then become an anonymous roustabout on some off-shore rig.
Mind you, whenever I bring up those 12-hour-long shift and the back-breaking labor that comes with a career change like that, Len – without even breaking a sweat – tells me about his other dream. Which is to become a mattress tester at Sleep Number. To which I say, “Get in line behind me, pal.”
Anyway … Mr. Testa – barring some unfortunate off-shore incident involving British Petroleum – should be back on the job next week. But until then, folks … Well, you’re stuck with me.
And before we get started here, I just want to thank everyone who subscribes to this show over at Patreon.com/JimHillMedia. These include David Zarzynski, Chris Gardiner, Robert Gormly, Jeanna Howard and Magrkira …
… Just in case you’re wondering, these are the nice folks who – should the Imagineers go forward with their rumored plan to level the “MuppetVision 3D” theater at Disney’s Hollywood Studios to then make room for that “Monsters, Inc.” -themed coaster that Josh D’Amaro announced earlier this month at the D23 Expo …
Anyway, these are the nice folks who – should these plans actually go forward – are now planning to climb up into the cargo net you see hanging over the pre-show space inside of the “MuppetVision Theater” and not come down again until WDI rethinks this plan.
There’s also been some talk of a hunger strike. But given that this cargo net is reportedly full of many different flavors of Jello, I doubt that David, Chris, Robert, Jeanna & Magrkira are going to starve anytime soon.
Speaking of which: How many of you already knew that this sight gag in the “Muppetvision 3D” pre-show is supposed to be a tribute to everyone’s favorite Mouseketeer, the late great Annette Funicello. Because that thing hanging down from the ceiling is a net full of Jello. A net full of Jello. Get it.
Which brings us now to the news portion of today’s “Disney Dish.” And – as always – the news is sponsored by TouringPlans.com. TouringPlans can help you save time and money at theme parks like Walt Disney World. So please check them out at touringplans.com.
Want to double back to that “Muppetvision” / “Monsters, Inc.” related story for a moment. Prior to heading off on his well-deserved Summer vacation, Mr. Testa revealed to me that this past Friday, August 23rd was supposed to be the day that Disney would clarify where the Doors Coaster was supposed to be built at Disney’s Hollywood Studios.
Well, that day came and went without an official announcement. Now where this gets interesting is – a few days prior to that (on Friday, August 16th) – a longtime WDW employee who works in that backstage building which previously housed Feature Animation Florida shared this info via social media:
We were recently informed that we will be leaving our offices in Hollywood Studios. Is this related to some of the D23 announcements? I honestly don’t know.
Okay. I know. That’s not a lot of info to go on. Then again, people online were losing their minds late last week when they noticed that a building façade right across the way from the Stage One Company Store (That’s the post-show retail space for “Muppetvision 3D.” The structure just beyond the exit of the theater. The one whose entrance is flanked by those two largeish statues of Kermit wearing tuxedos are located).
Anyway, people saw that this building façade just across the way from the Stage One Company Store was having its fabric wrap removed and then immediately hopped online to pull a Chicken Little. Screaming about how the closure of “Muppetvision 3D” was now just minutes away and how the bulldozers were already backstage.
To which I say … Guys, calm down. The truth of the matter is … There’s no official decision yet in regards to where the Monsters, Inc. coaster for Disney’s Hollywood Studios is supposed to go. From what I was told just last week, this project hasn’t even been officially funded yet.
I realize that a lot of people who work on the Internet these days make their money off of articles or podcasts with click baity headlines. So you’re probably going to be seeing a lot of stories in the coming weeks where people try to make the Muppetvision / Monsters, Inc. situation seem as dramatic and sensational as possible. Truth be told, this whole thing is still very much in flux at the moment. So maybe dial things back for a bit and – Oh. I don’t know – maybe wait to see what happens.
Of course, sometimes waiting is a bad thing. Case in point: If you waited to get tickets to this year’s edition Oogie Boogie Bash (the after-hours Halloween-themed hard ticket event which held on select nights at Disney California Adventure from August to October) … It’s now too late.
Ticket sold out from this year’s “Oogie Boogie Bash” just 11 days after the Disneyland Resort first put them on sale. All 27 dates gone clean.
Which – if I’d known in advance that Doctor Heinz Doofenschmirtz from “Phineas & Ferb” AND Hades from Disney’s “Hercules” were going to be added to this year’s treat trail – I definitely would have sprung for a ticket on this after-hours seasonal event.
Started at $134 per person for the dates in Late August. Prices crept up over September & October. Last three dates – October 27, 29 & 31st -- $189 a person. $55 more.
Hades especially impressive. Echoed what that character did visually in the original 1997 Ron Clements & John Musker movie. Hades would go from a cool blue flame to raging red fire if provoked.
Expect to see much more of this character in the not-so-distant future. Disney definitely getting back into the “Hercules” business:
Stage musical version of this film opened in Hamburg, Germany back in March of this year. Tickets available for performances through May 4, 2025. Next Summer, a similar production of Disney’s stage version of “Hercules” – which, just like the Hamburg version, will be directed & choreographed by Casey Nicholaw ( The Tony Award-winner who also directed Disney’s stage version of “Aladdin”) –
… This show will be opening at the Theatre Royal Drury Lane in London’s West End in the Summer of 2025. With the long term goal here being that Disney on Broadway wants to bring this very same show to NYC sometime in 2026 or 2027.
Interesting bend on this story: Disney Theatrical would really like to have Roger Bart (who’s now on Broadway playing Doc Brown in “Back to the Future: The Musical”) reprise his role as Hades. Bart first played that character in the try-out version of “Disney’s Hercules – A Musical for the Stage” back in the Summer of 2019 when a pilot version of this show was presented for a handful of performances by the Public Theater at the Delcourte Theater. Which is located out-of-doors in Central Park.
What makes Bart an interesting choice to play Hades is that … Well, in the original animated version of Disney’s “Hercules” back in 1997, Roger was young Hercules’ singing voice. It’s Bart that you’re hearing whenever you hear Herc warble “Go the Distance.”
Roger likes to joke that – in regards to his work related to Disney’s “Hercules” – his career has literally gone to Hell over the past 20 years.
Mind you, we’re just three months out from when “Moana 2” – the eagerly anticipated sequel to Disney’s Holiday 2016 release – finally arrives in theaters on November 27th of this year. Speaking of which, Brendan wrote in this past week to ask:
Hey Len and Jim,
Any update on the blue sky Moana ride at Animal Kingdom? Was surprised it didn't get announced at D23.
Brendan,
Thanks for reaching out. And I can understand your confusion. Back at the D23 Expo which was held in 2019, there was concept art shared that showed a “Moana “ -themed boat ride being built where Dinorama (That roadside attraction at Dinoland, U.S.A.) had previously been located.
Likewise over at where Dinosaur: The Ride still operates, the Imagineers revealed that they were considering building Zootopia. Which was to have featured an attraction where Guests rode along with Judy Hopps & Nick Wilde as they worked their beat at the Zootopia Police Department.
Those plans were changed in 2020. Largely because the Imagineers were looking to tell more of a unified story on this side of Disney’s Animal Kingdom. Which is why the previously announced “Moana” & “Zootopia” idea that were being considered for this part of that theme park (Which – to be fair here – were presented as blue sky projects. Ideas that WDI was just considering. Rather than already-locked-in, ready-to-start-construction things) were swamped out for “Encanto” & “Indiana Jones” -inspired attractions. Which were then announced at the
… Well, they were supposed to be announced at the D23 Expo that was going to be held in 2021. But due to the pandemic, that three day-long fan event got pushed back ‘til 2022.
Anyway, at the D23 Expo in 2022, that’s when we learned about the new “Encanto” & “Indiana Jones” themed rides that were being considered for this side of Disney’s Animal Kingdom. Which effectively share a spot on the map. Given that they were both supposed to be located in a part of this theme park that would then be reimagined as the Tropical Americas.
Want to stress here that – when Josh D’Amaro initially talked about these proposed additions to Disney’s Animal Kingdom – that “Encanto” ride and that “Indiana Jones” inspired redo of “Dinosaur” were all blue sky. As in: Maybe these will happen. Maybe they won’t. It was only with this months D23 EXPO out in Anaheim that we then officially learned that these things were shovel ready. Going to happen very soon.
Mind you, sometime Imagineering doesn’t given Disney theme park any advance notice that changes-of-size are coming to their favorite shows & attractions. Case in point: When “Peter Pan Flight” shut down in Florida’s Magic Kingdom six weeks, there was nothing about the closure of this dark ride that suggested anything more than this was just regularly scheduled maintenance.
But then – when “Peter Pan Flight” re-opened Friday last (August 16th) – the Indian Encampment scene in this Fantasyland attraction had a whole new look. Which we’ll discuss at length in the feature portion of today’s show in a few moments.
But first this …
SHOW BREAK
And we’re back. But before we get started about talking about what just happened to the Magic Kingdom’s version of “Peter Pan Flight,” I have a question to ask you.
When’s the last time you watched Disney’s “Peter Pan”? I went over to Disney+ the other day to check out this hand-drawn animated film from 1953. And before the titles rolled, a card came up with the following message:
This program includes negative depictions and/or mistreatment of people or cultures. These stereotypes were wrong then and are wrong now. Rather than remove this content, we want to acknowledge its harmful impact, learn from it and spark conversation to create a more inclusive future together.
Disney is committed to creating stories with inspirational and aspirational themes that reflect the rich diversity of the human experience around the globe.
To learn more about how stories have impacted society visit: www. Disney.com/Stories
Now what’s kind of funny about this is – when you get to the “Peter Pan” landing page on Disney+ -- what you see is that this animated feature is Rated G. But this subscription streaming service also lets parents know that this animated feature “ … contains tobacco depictions.” Which means – over the course of this 77 minute-long film – you’ll see Captain Hook smoking a cigarette and Peter Pan puffing on a peace pipe.
Which ISN’T why Disney+ stuck that it was “ … wrong then and are wrong now” title card in front of “Peter Pan.” The reason that this subscription streaming service is warning potential viewers about “stereotypes” & “negative depictions” to be found in this now 71-year-old movie isn’t because several characters smoke. But – rather – it’s the entire scene set at the Indian Encampment on Never Land Island.
Want to start things off here by stressing that the problematic depiction of Native Americans in Disney’s “Peter Pan” can be traced back to its source material. Which is J.M. Barrie’s 1904 play, “Peter Pan, The Boy Who Wouldn’t Grow Up” and the novel that Barrie eventually wrote which was based on that play. “Peter Pan & Wendy,” which was published in 1911. Some seven years after the play version of “Peter Pan” was first performed.
Important to understand that J.M. Barrie wasn’t looking to craft a historical document here. This Scottish playwright was crafting an elaborate fantasy for the stage. A “fairy play” is what J.M. famously called “Peter Pan.” Which is why he populated Never Land with mermaids & pixies & pirates & what people back a hundred & 20 years ago called red men or savages.
This – like it or not – is how Native Americans were depicted in pop culture back then. As primitive, warlike savages who speak in single word phrases like “How.”
And Disney – when he was adapting “Peter Pan” to the screen – stuck close to that story’s source material. In this feature length animated film, he depicted Tiger Lily – the proud, beautiful princess of the Piccaninny tribe (Side note: Barrie chose a particular unfortunate name for the Native Americans he wrote about in “Peter Pan.” By using the “Piccaninny” moniker, J.M. managed to insult not only the indigenous people of North America but also African-Americans as well. Which isn’t really the sort of two-fer you should be shooting for).
Anyway, Tiger Lily is captured by Captain Hook and left to die on Marooner’s Rock at Skull Island. Peter rescues Tiger Lily. And – as a direct result – the Pickaninny tribe has this great celebration and then forges an alliance with Peter Pan & the Lost Boys against Captain Hook and the Pirates. We also learn – in the process – that Tiger Lily has feelings for Peter. Which then ticks off Wendy.
It's this particular scene in Disney’s 1953 version of “Peter Pan” – the celebration back at the Indian Encampment on Never Land Island – which is why the Company’s subscription streaming service saw fit to issue that title card warning of “negative depictions” and “stereotypes.” Because this is where we get to hear Sammy Cahn & Sammy Fain’s song, “What Made the Red Man Red.” Which is sung by Candy Candido & the Mellomen.
Again, what to stress here that the 1950s (and the 1940s, for that matter) were a different time in America. It was perfectly acceptable back then – whether it was in a musical on Broadway or a major motion picture coming out of Hollywood – to use Native American culture & traditions as the stepping-off point for a cheap laugh.
Case in point: “Annie Get Your Gun” – the smash hit musical from 1945 – had a big comic number called “I’m an Indian Too.” Which has lines like:
Just like Battle Axe, Hatchet Face, Eagle Nose
Like those Indians, I'm an Indian too
Want to stress that this song was written by Irving Berlin, the same guy who wrote “God Bless America.”
Likewise the stage version of “Peter Pan” (which arrived on Broadway in October of 1954. Some 20 months after Disney’s animated version of “Peter Pan” first arrived in theaters in February of 1953). That show featured a number – I kid you not – called “Ug-A-Wugg.” Which was supposed to parody the way Native Americans reportedly talked.
Side note: “Ug-a-Wugg” was written by Broadway veterans Jules Styne, Betty Comden & Adolph. A trio of musical comedy master who – to be blunt -- really should have known better.
But then again, it was the 1940s & 1950s. A different time in entertainment. If you watch Bob Hope’s 1948 comedy, “The Paleface” or its sequel – 1952’s “Son of Paleface” – (Or – for that matter – Martin & Lewis’ 1956 comedy, “Pardners”) … You’ll see that it was perfectly acceptable back then to make fun of Native Americans by having movie versions of America’s indigenous people say “How” and “Ugh” onscreen.
Which brings us back to that “What Made the Red Man Red” song that Sammy Cahn & Sammy Fain wrote for Disney’s “Peter Pan.” Which – again – I want to stress here was supposed to be a comic song. But today, when you hear lyrics like …
Alright. Here’s the verse from this song which asks “When did the red man first say ‘Ugh’ ?“
And the gag that Cahn & Fain came up with is:
In the Injun book, it say,
When first brave married squaw
He gave out with heap big “Ugh”
When he saw his mother-in-law
Which – again – is a two-fer. The lyric manages to insult Native Americans AND women.
Anyway, “Peter Pan” (Disney’s animated movie) opens in theaters back in February of 1953. “Peter Pan Flight” (the dark ride found in the Fantasyland section of Walt’s first family fun park) opens with the rest of Disneyland back in July of 1955. And – for a while there – things are fine. No one complains or comments.
But then came the Late 1960s & early 1970s and Wounded Knee & the occupation of Alcatraz Island. A time when America’s first peoples rose up & said: “We’re no longer going to be the butt of your lazy jokes. We’re not going to tolerate you turning our proud traditions into fodder for cheap gags. We’re a proud people with a rich history & culture. So ix-nay on Hollywood’s promotion of flat-out untrue stereotypes when it comes to Native Americans.”
What was unfortunate about the timing of all this was – literally in the middle of this cultural moment – Walt Disney World opens up down in Florida on October 1, 1971. And what can Guests see as they climb aboard a flying pirate ship and then take off for Never Land as they experience the Magic Kingdom’s “Peter Pan Flight” ride? They can look down – as their ride vehicle passes over Never Land Island – and see a recreation of the Indian Encampment from that 1953 film. Which has Tiger Lily and her dad, the Indian Chief, seated in front of a group of teepees with a bunch of Indian Braves. And the Chief & his Braves look just like these characters did in Disney’s 1953 film. Which big flat noses and fire engine red skin. You know? How Native Americans were stereotypically depicted back in the 1950s.
Disney then doubles down when it redoes Fantasyland at Disneyland in the early 1980s. Their redo of that theme park’s “Peter Pan Flight” (which re-opens in May of 1983 along with much of that theme park’s New Fantasyland) really leans into the look of Disney’s 1953 film. Including Tiger Lily’s being marooned at Skull Rock and her big-nosed Dad, the Indian Chief and his red-skinned braves sitting around that camp fire.
Tokyo Disneyland’s version of “Peter Pan Flight” (which opened a month earlier in April of 1983) did the exact same thing. Really leaning into the stereotypical depiction of Native Americans that had been presented in Disney’s animated film from 1953.
Quick side note: This (ironically enough) came about because of WDI’s incredible attention to detail. With the New Fantasyland version of “Peter Pan Flight” in Anaheim as well as the Tokyo Disneyland version of this dark ride, the Imagineers wanted – as accurately as possible – to recreate the look of Disney’s hand-drawn animated version of J.M. Barrie’s story. Which is why Tiger Lily & her Dad, the Indian Chief looked as closely as possible to the way these characters did in that 1953 film.
Which – as time went by – wasn’t seen as a virtue. Native American family would climb aboard “Peter Pan Flight” and then look down – as their pirate ship flew over Never Land Island – at that Indian Encampment and see … To be blunt, a hurtful stereotype.
To give The Walt Disney Company credit, over time, they recognized that Tiger Lily, her Dad the Indian Chief (not to mention the Red Men who made up the Pickaninny Tribe) were becoming problematic. Which is why – after Disneyland Paris’ version of “Peter Pan Flight” opened in April of 1992 – the Imagineers then began playing down this aspect of that 1953 film whenever they built a new dark ride based on Disney’s “Peter Pan.”
Hong Kong Disneyland (which opened in September of 2005) doesn’t have a “Peter Pan Flight” at all. And Shanghai Disneyland’s version of “Peter Pan Flight” (which opened with the rest of that Resort in June of 2016) – with the exception of a handful of teepees that circle a camp fire that Guests can view as they fly over Never Land Island – doesn’t include Tiger Lily or her Dad, the Indian Chief, at all.
Rather than pretending that the character Tiger Lily never existed, Walt Disney Studios went another way with its 2023 film for Disney+, “Peter Pan & Wendy.” They deliberately cast Alyssa Wapanatahk – who is a member of the Bigstone Cree First Nation in Canada – to play Tiger Lily. And in “Peter Pan & Wendy,” Alyssa – when she’s playing Tiger Lily – speaks both English as well as the Cree language. More to the point, the outfit that Wapanatahk wears is inspired by archival images of authentic Cree culture with elaborate, handmade bead work.
Which brings us to what just happened to the “Peter Pan Flight” at Florida’s Magic Kingdom. This Fantasyland dark ride closed six weeks ago for what was originally billed as a fairly unremarkable rehab. But when “Peter Pan Flight” officially re-opened on August 16th, as Guests flew over Never Land Island, they noticed something new down in that Indian Encampment.
Instead of Tiger Lily, her father the Indian Chief and those stereotypical redmen from Disney’s 1953 film, people now saw a much more respectful and accurate portrayal of Native American culture. This scene in “Peter Pan Flight” now shows Tiger Lily and her grandmother gracefully performing the traditional Fancy Shawl Butterfly Dance around that campfire. Which is a traditional dance that the Cherokee people perform at their annual pow-wows.
Just so you know: The Imagineers have indicated that – in the not-so-distant future – the version of “Peter Pan Flight” that Guests can experience when they visit the original Disneyland out in California will receive a similar makeover of the Indian Encampment that people see as their pirate ship fly over Never Land Island.
Mind you. For every step forward, there’s a step back. And while people are applauding what Disney has down with the Indian Encampment scene in “Peter Pan Flight” in Florida, it’s worth noting that the “Peter Pan’s Never Land Adventure” attraction – which just opened at Tokyo Disney Seas back on June 6th of this year (2024) as part of that theme park’s Fantasy Springs expansion project – has a scene that directly references the “What Made the Red Man Red” musical number from Disney’s animated “Peter Pan” from 1953.
I wonder if that’s eventually going to get addressed. Likewise the version of the Indian Encampment in Tokyo Disneyland & Disneyland Paris’ version of “Peter Pan Flight.” Which still feature Tiger Lily and her Dad, the Indian Chief (along with those stereotypical red men) from Disney’s 1953 animated film.
I trust that the Imagineers will eventually get around to dealing with this issue. Which – given the mantra that we all know from Disney’s “Peter Pan” (i.e., all it takes is faith, trust, and a little bit of pixie dust”) is a good a place as any to end today’s feature piece.
That’s going to do it for today’s show. You can help support Mr. Testa & my efforts by subscribing over at Patreon.com/jimhillmedia, where we’re posting exclusive shows every week.
That’s where -- Later this week – veteran Imagineer Jim Shull & I will be discussing the changes that have just been made to the Storybook Canal Boat ride at Disneyland Paris. Which – by the way – is slated to re-open to the public later this week on Shmursday, August 30th.
Just a reminder: Len will be returning for next week’s edition of “Disney Dish.” Probably with a gorgeous tan as well.
And speaking of getting tan … This podcast is produced spectacularly by Eric Hersey & David Grey. Who undoubtedly will be catching some rays as they lead next Saturday’s “Yoga on the Beach” seminar at Hampton Beach. Which is located along the shores of the Atlantic in my home state of New Hampshire.
Just a reminder, guys: Make sure that everyone puts on lots of sun screen before you then get around to doing downward facing dog. That’s a part of this yoga seminar where you’ll be pointing some body parts towards the sky that don’t normally see a lot of sun. And nobody wants to head into the long Labor Day Weekend with second degree burns on that part of their anatomy. If you know what I mean.
While Eric and David are doing that, please go on to iTunes and rate our show and tell us what you’d like to hear next.
For Len, this is Jim. And we will see you on the next show.