Huang Jiefu on the record

This document is a catalogue of all significant, recent (as of early 2015) public statements of Huang Jiefu on China’s organ transplantation system—it is incomplete, and a work in progress. Entries are ordered by date, and excerpts from the respective item are provided below with English translation. The original Chinese is retained so researchers can easily compare the original to the translation. Potentially important material is highlighted.

Index:

2014/3/5 黄洁夫:内地已有38家医院停用死囚器官

2015/1/11 黄洁夫:我只看过一次摘取器官 觉得需要改变

2015/3/11 黄洁夫李彦宏俞敏洪谈民生(实录)

2015/3/13 黄洁夫: 使用死囚器官是历史难堪一页

2015/3/16 原卫生部副部长:周永康落马打破死囚器官移植利益链

2015/10/19 黄洁夫:器官来源转型 移植数不降反升  

2015/11/23 黄洁夫:死囚可否捐器官是伪命题  北京青年报

Last updated: Nov. 30, 2015


Date: 2014/3/5

Publication: Beijing Times

Link: http://npc.people.com.cn/n/2014/0307/c376899-24566378.html   

Archive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxwXcZlX2dXc2xSajhfeXZXRlE/view?usp=sharing 

Title: “Huang Jiefu: 38 Hospitals in China have already stopped using death row prisoner organs” | 黄洁夫:内地已有38家医院停用死囚器官

Full version of item: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1LwDeDLOiLHdq8EAx3lNoAQc-qkWr-ameE9xuEZDv6zU/edit?usp=sharing 

Key Content:

谈器官捐献 On Organ Donation

38家医院停用死囚器官 38 hospitals stopped using executed prisoner organs

华时报:去年全国器官捐献情况如何?

Beijing Times: How was the organ donation situation last year?

黄洁夫:我国器官移植已经进入到历史发展的新阶段,将走出依赖死囚器官的历史阶段,我们从去年全面启动器官捐献工作后截至今年3月2日,全国先后共有1570人捐献器官,约有5000人因此获得新生命,这个数字远远超过了以往死囚器官捐献的数量。

Huang Jiefu: Our country’s organ transplant has entered a new era. The era of reliance on executed prisoner organs will end. Since last year when we officially started the organ donation work, until March 2 of this year, there have been 1,570 donors and about 5,000 people received organs. This number has already surpassed the number of organs donated by executed prisoners. [Translator’s note: Prisoners organs are fewer than 5,000. Where did the rest come from?]  

京华时报:已经逐步停止使用死囚器官?

Beijing Times: Already gradually stopping the use of executed prisoner organs?

黄洁夫:广东、北京、浙江等38家大型器官移植中心已经停止使用死囚器官了,我们并不是反对死囚捐献器官,剥夺他们捐献器官的权利。死囚也是公民,也有捐献器官的权利,关键是有法治的建设,今后,死囚器官捐献也将需要本人和家人同意,就和公民捐献一样,同时要按照国家法律,进入全国统一的计算机系统自动公平分配。

Huang: 38 big transplant centers in Guangdong, Beijing and Zhejiang province have already stopped. We’re actually not against executed prisoners donating their organs. We don’t want to deprive their right to donate organs. Executed prisoners are also citizens, and have the right to donate their organs. The key is to have the regulations. From now on, executed prisoners donation also requires the prisoner and the family members’ consent, which is the same as citizen donation. In the meantime, based on our country’s law, they [executed prisoners] will be entered into the computerized system for fair organ distribution.

京华时报:是说这38家医院完全不再使用死囚器官?

Beijing Times: Are you saying that these 38 hospitals have completely gotten rid of the reliance on executed prisoner organs?

黄洁夫:世界上任何一个国家都没有使用死囚器官的情况,死囚可以自愿捐献器官。有捐献意愿的死囚的器官一旦纳入我国统一的分配系统,就属于公民自愿捐献,不再存在死囚捐献的说法。我们需要人权建设,公平、正义,大家都有此共识。死囚可以提出申请,签字,也可以享受人道主义救助等程序,不是不使用死囚器官,而是不准医院或者医生和一些人私下交易人体器官。

Huang: There is not any other country in the world that uses executed prisoner organs—the executed prisoners can voluntarily donate their organs. Once the voluntarily donated executed prisoner organs are entered into our distribution system, they belong to citizen donation. So there is no longer such a saying as executed prisoner organs. We need to improve human rights, be fair and righteous. Everyone agrees with that. Death row inmates can fill out the application, sign the application, and can also enjoy humanitarian aid and so on. It is not that we do not use organs from executed prisoners, instead we do not allow hospitals and doctors to privately trade human organs.

京华时报:何时完全实现不用死囚器官,有无时间表?

Beijing Times: When will [our country] completely move away from using executed prisoner organs? Is there a time frame?

黄洁夫:我国的器官捐献工作才刚刚起步,才是个新生儿,现在已经快一岁了,希望大家合力让这个新生儿长好。这是个改革的过程,广东等多家医院已经主动不再使用私下交易的死囚器官,都是公开、透明、合情、合理的器官移植获取和分配。原来私下交易器官就是一种腐败,中间有许多链条和黑洞,原来的器官获取方式是见不得阳光的。

Huang: Our country’s organ donation work has just started. It’s still in its infancy. Now, it’s almost 1 year old. I hope we work together to ensure the healthy growth of this newborn. This is a reform process. Many hospitals in Guangdong province have voluntarily promised not to use privately traded organs from executed prisoners. Their organ procurement and distribution is open, transparent and fair. It is a kind of corruption to privately trade organs. There are many chains and black holes in the middle. The previously used organ procurement method cannot be brought to the daylight [cannot be exposed to the public].

器官捐献和移植已拟定入法

Plans to create laws for organ donation and transplant

京华时报:今年会有何新进展?

Beijing Times: What new development will happen this year?

黄洁夫:3月1日,国家成立了器官捐献与移植委员会,在国务院领导下,由国家卫计委和中国红十字会总会两家组成,由国家卫计委主导,委员会名誉主任委员是华建敏、李斌等,主任委员是我,副主任委员是赵白鸽和马晓伟等。3月20日,我们将成立OPO联盟,将进一步推动器官捐献的公平分配,在去年以来1570例器官捐献者中已经有约一半的器官进入到我国器官捐献分配系统中。

Huang: March 1, our country established Organ Donation and Transplant Committee. Under the leadership of our State Council, the Committee is set up under the National Health and Family Planning Commission (NHFPC) and China Red Cross. The NHFPC is mainly responsible for it. The honorary directors of the Committee are Hua Jianmin, Li Bin, etc. I am the director. The deputy directors are Zhao Baige, Ma Xiaowei, etc. On March 20, we will set up the OPO alliance to propel the fair distribution of organs. About half of the organs donated last year by 1,570 persons have already been entered into our country’s distribution system.

京华时报:有没有全国立法计划?

Beijing Times: Is there a plan to set up the nationwide law?

黄洁夫:我们已经有器官移植条例,将对其进行修订,更名为中国人体器官捐献和移植条例,正在进入法制程序。其中会对人道主义的救助明确统一原则,但不是统一标准,生命是无价的,不要说一个器官多少钱,困难的捐赠家庭都会进行人道主义救助,救助的形式有多种。

Huang: We already have a regulation on organ transplant. We will revise it and change its name to China Human Organ Donation and Transplant Regulation. It is going through the legal process. There will be a common guideline for the humanitarian aid [i.e. financial payment], but it is not a common standard. Life is priceless. Don’t talk about how much an organ costs. Those poor families whose family member donated organs will receive humanitarian aid. There are many different types of aid.

希望器官移植纳入医保报销

[Sub-heading] Hope to include organ transplant in the medical insurance system to be reimbursed

京华时报:之前说每年有30万人需要器官移植,但实际登记等待移植的只有一万人,这之间的差距怎么理解?

Beijing Times: It was said that every year there are about 300,000 people who need organs. But there are only 10,000 registered and waiting. How to explain the gap?

黄洁夫:中间的差距涉及到供体来源、社会经济情况、取舍等多种情况,现在我国器官移植是收费的,一个肝移植或者肾移植都需要花费几十万的费用,不是百姓想做就能做的,因此真正需要做的和实际登记做的有很大差距。人们的取舍有很多原因,有的人病重需要移植,但一旦移植会把家里的钱全部花光,他可能就会放弃,这种情况很常见。每年有100万人透析,约1/3需要肾移植和肝移植,科学估算有约30万人需要移植。

Huang: The gap has to do with organ sources, socio-economic conditions, give and take, etc. Our organ transplants cost money. A liver or kidney transplant costs tens of thousands of yuan. This is not something common people can afford. Therefore, there is a gap between those registered and those in need of organs. Some people need a transplant, but it will bankrupt the family. So this person might decide not to do the transplant. This is a very common phenomenon. Every year, there are 1,000,000 people who go through dialysis. About one third of these people will need liver and kidney transplant. So we scientifically estimate that about 300,000 people need transplants.

京华时报:器官移植有无纳入医保报销?

Beijing Times: Is organ transplant covered by medical insurance?

黄洁夫:我当然希望这样,这是生和死之间的选择,希望社会动员起来,让这些真正需要器官移植的患者不因为经济原因而失去抢救的机会。我们成立了人体器官移植的基金会,正在成立的过程中,希望这个基金会成立后,政府出一点钱,社会捐一点钱,医疗单位为这个事业捐一点钱,把这个基金会做大,帮助真正需要帮助的患者。

Huang: I hope so of course. This is a choice between life and death. I hope society can work together so that those who need organs will not lose their chances because of financial reasons. We are in the process to set up a human organ transplant foundation. I wish the government can give some money, the society can donate some money, hospitals can donate some money once the foundation is setup, so that it can help those in need.


Date: 2015/1/11

Publication: Phoenix

Link: http://news.ifeng.com/a/20150111/42906812_0.shtml 

Archive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxwXcZlX2dXNVlRMm1xM2QzUXc/view?usp=sharing 

Archive of video interview: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxwXcZlX2dXNjhZNndTYklRZk0/view?usp=sharing 

Title: “Huang Jiefu: I’ve only seen an organ extraction once; I think there should be changes” | fi黄洁夫:我只看过一次摘取器官 觉得需要改变

Full version of item: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1w7MFiqIiDejdEK6Kh6CYcCwKZi75qb9AyiXcdwT7hjI/edit 

Key Content: See full version.


Date: 2015/3/11

Publication: Caixin

Link: http://topics.caixin.com/2015-03-11/100790070.html 

Archive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxwXcZlX2dXLUo1amEzWVROT28/view?usp=sharing 

Title: “Huang Jiefu, Robin Li, and Yu Minhong talk about livelihood issues (transcript)” | 黄洁夫李彦宏俞敏洪谈民生(实录)

Full version of item: https://docs.google.com/document/d/12a6Z9gRSUnXOweJ7D1Kix1HOjhcP0TKAd7UJ9OI7qNw/edit?usp=sharing 

Key Content:

[法国欧洲时报记者]:我的问题是提给黄洁夫委员的,从今年1月1日起,中国停止了死囚器官的使用,器官移植完全来自于公民的自愿捐献,我想请问这一决定的原因是什么?这样做是否会造成器官移植的短缺?目前中国公民自愿捐献器官的情况如何?谢谢。[09:26]

Europe Times [A Chinese newspaper managed by Beijing located in Paris]: My question is for Minister Huang Jiefu. Starting Jan. 1 this year, China ended using organs from executed prisoners for transplant. The organs entirely come from citizen voluntary donation. What is the reason behind this decision? Will this create a shortage of organs? How is the citizen voluntary donation situation in China? Thanks.

[黄洁夫]:很感谢给我提这个问题。今天到这儿来,我想大家问我的第一个问题就是器官移植。这几天开会,大概几十名中外记者都问到了这个问题,所以我很高兴回答这个问题。为什么要取消死囚器官这个来源?

Huang: Thank you for asking me this question. I thought today’s first question for me would be about organ transplant. During these few days of meeting, there have been about a dozen reporters, foreign and domestic, asking me this question. So I am very happy to answer this question. Why do we want to get rid of the executed prisoners as organ source?

首先给大家阐明,死囚器官的来源是在2009年以前中国的器官移植事业为了救器官功能衰竭的病人,当时又没有公民自愿捐献的体系,实属无奈之举,说得更明白一点,是饮鸩止渴的方法。这种方法是不符合世界卫生组织指导原则的,同时也是导致了国际上多年的垢病,同时使中国的人权事业受到影响。取消死囚器官的来源是把它推向阳光、透明的公民自愿捐献的事业,是完全超越了器官移植医疗服务的,标志着中国司法的进步,也标志着中国人权事业的进步,更加彰显了器官移植事业的纯洁和高尚,不要让医护人员在灰色的地带进行神圣的救死扶伤的服务。[09:29]

Huang: First I want to tell everyone, prior to 2009, in order to save lives, we had to use organs from executed prisoners. This is because there was no citizen voluntary donation system. We had no options but to make this bad decision. This does not fit into the World Health Organization guidelines and has created many years of human rights issues [for our country] in the international community. The decision to end the usage of executed prisoner organs is to propel our citizen donation program. It is a decision beyond medical services. It signifies the advancement of Chinese judicial system and the progress of China’s human rights situation. It especially shows the purity and nobility of China’s transplant industry, not making medical personnel in a gray zone when they are carrying out sacred life-saving missions.

[黄洁夫]:死囚器官短缺会不会引起短缺?正好相反,我们要取消死囚器官就是为了解决器官短缺的问题,因为中国近年来人权事业在进步、司法体制改革在进步,我们的政策是少用或者是慎用死刑,如果器官移植还是依靠死囚器官,我们的器官移植事业就变成了无源之水。

Huang: Will there be a shortage of organs? Just the opposite. We want to rid of executed prisoner organs precisely to solve the problem of organ shortage. This is because in recent years China’s human rights situation has been improving, the reform of the judiciary system has been progressing, and our policy is to use less or cautiously use the death penalty. If our organ transplant still rely on executed prisoners, our transplant industry will be out of resources.

随着现在死囚越来越少,从2014年光明、自愿捐献器官在全国推开以后,我们80%的器官移植已经来自于公民自愿捐献。去年有一个重要的会议——中国共产党十八届四中全会,主题是依法治国,根据规定,特别是刑法修正案,我们必须全面落实依法治国,同时也是人民群众迫切的要求,要有一个透明公开的器官移植体系。

Huang: As executed prisoners become fewer and fewer, in 2014, we started the transparent voluntary donation system. 80 percent of the organs are from citizen donations. Last year, we held an important meeting – the 4th plenary Session of the 11th Central Committee – the main theme was to govern the country with the rule of law. According to the rules, especially the criminal law amendment, we must completely obey the law. This is what the people are asking for. We must have an open and transparent organ transplant system.

当我们宣布之后,得到了全社会的热烈响应,也得到了国际上的广泛赞誉。世界上所有器官移植的杂志他们都表示支持。一个偶然的机会,罗马教皇知道了,他也表示赞赏。这是我们国家人权事业、医疗卫生事业乃至社会全面的进步。[09:37]

Huang: After we announced this decision, we received warm support from the entire society, as well as the international community. All organ transplant magazines around the world support us. The pope accidentally heard the news and he also applauded. This is a progress of our nation’s human rights situation, medical and health industry and the entire society.

[黄洁夫]:大家担心会不会引起短缺,2014年已经是80%,今年我们是从1月1日到3月4日,正好是春节时间,中国的文化是最忌讳谈死亡的,可是今年的春节和往年的春节不一样,就是在这两个月时间里,很多人因不幸的事故死亡、牺牲,他们生命的挽歌就带来了另外一些生命的升华,他一个家庭的悲痛给更多家庭带来了生命。

Huang: People worry about organ shortage. But 80 percent of organs in 2014 came from donation. This year from Jan. 1 to March 4, over the Chinese New Year, although death is a forbidden topic during this time, many people died of accidents. Their lives were elevated because one family’s misery brought new life to many families.  

今年1月1日—3月3日,中国公民捐献器官的是381例,差不多近1000个器官,跟2014年比较,数字增加了1倍,证明公民的捐献是阳光的、透明的,是大有希望的。我们告别了昨天难看的过去,翻开了中国器官移植发展的新的一页,我们充满希望。谢谢。[09:37]

Huang: From Jan. 1 to March 3 this year, 381 citizens donated almost 1,000 organs. This is twice the number of 2014. It proves that our citizen donation is full of sunshine, transparent and has a great future. We say goodbye to our shameful past. China’s organ transplant turned a new page. We are very hopeful. Thank you.


Date: 2015/3/13

Publication: Netease

Link: http://zhenhua.163.com/15/0313/15/AKJKGOJ5000464BM.html 

Archive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxwXcZlX2dXeEIzVTBaNHIxTWM/view?usp=sharing 

Title: “Huang Jiefu:  The use of death row prisoner organs is an embarrassing page in history” | 黄洁夫: 使用死囚器官是历史难堪一页

Full version of item: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1S2-Er2fUd7CkIQW4PcVoAUEfDJwQLF8lJT__GWfe5TE/edit 

Key Content:

黄洁夫:十二届全国政协常委、国家器官捐献与移植委员会主任、前卫生部副部长

Huang Jiefu is a Standing Committee member of the the 12th Chinese People’s Political Consultative Conference (CPPCC) National Committee; Director of the National Organ Donation and Transplantation Office; former Deputy Ministry of Health

一,利用死囚器官是历史上难堪的一页,现已翻过去

  1. Using of organs from executed prisoners is an embarrassing page in history, but it has been turned over

记者:2014年年底的时候,曾有消息传出章含之肾脏可能来自1995年被执行死刑的聂树斌。尽管最后章含之之女洪晃否认了,但她也不能完全确定章含之的肾脏是否来自其他的死囚。在过去,死囚器官一直是中国器官移植供体器官的主要来源。您本人是否有参与过死囚器官的获取工作的经历?

Reporter: At the end of 2014, there was news that the [recipient transplant] kidney of Zhang Hanzhi might be from Nie Shubin who was executed in 1995. Although the daughter of Zhang Hanzhi denied this, she was not exactly sure whether the kidney was from an executed prisoner. In the past, organs from executed prisoners were the main source for organ transplant in China. Have you personally been involved in obtaining organs from executed prisoners?


  黄洁夫:我希望能引导人们尽快翻开过去的一页,来看现在。那是历史上器官移植界让老百姓都很难堪的一页,现在已经翻过去了。今年1月1号起,在党中央关于全面依法治国的精神的号召下,中国已经全面停止了死囚器官的使用。

Huang Jiefu: I hope that I can lead people to flip this page over as soon as possible and look at [what is happening] now. It [using organs from executed prisoners] is, in the history of organ transplant, an embarrassing page, even for ordinary Chinese people. Now we’ve turned the page. From January 1, 2015, under the call from the CCP Central Committee on the spirit of the rule of law, China has fully stopped using organs from executed prisoners.


  死囚器官使用是怎样的故事呢?我们一定要全面了解这件事,才能谈到章含之、聂树斌、李树斌、王树斌。死囚器官移植是在公民自愿捐献器官体系没有建立之前,一个很无奈的权宜之计。只要有公民的自愿捐献体系,医生是绝不会采用(死囚器官)的。因为要治病救人,要抢救另外一个生命,所以在没有办法的时候,才把眼光使向了死囚的器官。其实国家对死囚器官也有很严格的法律规定,规定了需要死囚本人及其家人签字同意。实际上是死囚器官的捐献。

What is the story about using organs from executed prisoners? We must fully understand it before we can discuss Zhang Hanzhi, Nie Shubin, Li Shubin or Wang Shubin [well known cases in China where the individuals either received organs by dubious means, or had their organs removed after death.] Using organs from executed prisoners for organ transplant is before the establishment of the voluntary organ donation system. It is a very helpless expediency. As long as there is the donation system, doctors will never use it (organs from executed prisoners). Because we need to save lives, to rescue another life, so only when there is no other way will we turn our sight toward using organs from executed prisoners. In fact, the state has very strict laws about using organs from executed prisoners. The laws regulate that using organs from an executed prisoner must obtain consent from the person’s family members. Actually the organs are actually donated by the executed prisoner.


  但是,我们国家很大,地区的经济发展也不一样,同时地方执法也很不平均。用死囚器官,一个是不符合伦理学的原则,因为世界卫生组织和全球的法制社会都是禁止使用死囚器官的。我们作为一个政治大国,是唯一一个依靠死囚器官的,对国家的形象,对老百姓器官移植的质量都是很不利的。

However, our country is very big, the economic development varies among places. At the same time, the enforcement of local laws is also uneven. Using organs from executed prisoners is not in line with the principles of ethics, as the World Health Organization and the global legal communities all ban the use of organs from executed prisoners. We, as a big political power, are the only ones who rely on organs from executed prisoners. This is very unfavorable to the image of the country and the quality of organ transplants for ordinary Chinese people.


  在这样的情况下,根据依法治国,根据什么法?一个是根据2007年的《人体器官移植条例》,第二是根据2011年刑法修正案中的器官买卖罪,第三个很重要的法规是2013年8月份,卫计委下发的《人体捐献器官获取和分配管理规定》。这三个文件就规定了器官的来源必须是自愿、无偿,同时必须是公开、透明、可溯源的,就是知道从哪儿来,到哪儿去。根据这样的精神,今年我们就宣布了2015年1月1号取消死囚器官的使用。

In such a case, according to the rule of law, which law to accord to? One is the "Human Organ Transplant Ordinance" issued in 2007, the second is the crime of organ trading in the Criminal Law Amendment issued in 2011, and the third is a very important legislation "Procurement and Allocation Regulations on Donated Human Organs" issued by the Health and Family Planning Commission in August 2013. These three documents regulate that the source of the organ must be voluntary, unpaid, open, transparent and traceable. That is knowing where the organ is from and where the organ is to go. According to this spirit, we announced the cancellation of the use of organs from executed prisoners on January 1, 2015.


  那是在什么样的基础下呢?一个是依法,一个是2014年的公民捐献已经取得了重大的突破。2014年,80%的器官都是来自公民自愿捐献的,同时死囚器官占的比例已经很小了。另外,现在司法改革是少用或慎用死刑。同时,死刑的获准权已经收到最高院。现在很多死刑的罪名都减少了,经济犯罪的也不判死刑了,就证明国家在司法、在人权事业上是在不断取得进步的。

So what is the foundation then? One is the law. The other is that there was a breakthrough in citizen donated organs in 2014. In 2014, 80% of the organs were from voluntary donations of citizens, while the proportion of organs from executed prisoners was very small. In addition, judicial reform requires less, or cautionary use of the death penalty. Meanwhile, the death penalty must be granted by the Supreme Court. Now, the number of death penalties has reduced and people who commit economic crimes will not be sentenced to death. This provides evidence that our country is continuously improving in terms of administration of justice and human rights.

所以现在时机已经成熟了,要停止使用死囚器官了。还有一点,如果不是公开透明的器官移植体系,老百姓就得不到这种服务,因为它就变成是一个暗箱作业了,它不是公开透明的。器官移植对所有国家来说,都是放在大病救助、医疗保险的第一位,因为器官移植是救命的手术,有器官移植就有生,没有器官移植就是死,所以只要我们是阳光透明的,就可以考虑国家在一个公民自愿捐献的大气候形成以后,向国家建议,国家也会做这件事情:把器官移植纳入到全民的大病救助的医保里面,人民群众就能享受到这种服务。

So now the time is ripe to stop the use of organs from executed prisoners. In addition, if the organ transplant system is not open and transparent, ordinary Chinese people will not get this service, because it will become a black-box operation and is not open and transparent. For all the countries, organ transplants are put in the first place in severe illness aids and health insurance, because organ transplant is a life-saving surgery. With organ transplants, there will be survival. No organ transplants, there will be death. Therefore, as long as we are transparent to the sunlight, we can consider, after the formation of the climate of citizen voluntarily donating organs, to suggest the state to include organ transplants into severe illness aids in Medicare for All. This way, all the people can enjoy this service. The state will do this.


  所以我们不要老是纠缠在过去,老是很关心死囚这一页,翻开一页看未来。不要纠缠在章含之是谁,一定是死囚的器官,因为那个时候没有公民捐献,所以这个事情没有什么好去关注的,我们要关注在未来,不要老是关注在过去。

So, we shouldn’t always dwell in the past, always concerned about the page of death row inmates. Flip over the page and look at the future. Do not dwell in the question of who Zhang Hanzhi is. It must have been an organ from an executed prisoner, because there is no citizen voluntary donation system. So there is nothing interesting to pay attention to in this. We should pay attention to the future, not the past.

记者:现在说停止使用,会不会让原本“合法”的行为转入地下活动呢?

Reporter: Now there’s this call to stop using [organs from executed prisoners], will it make the originally "lawful" behaviour turn into underground activities?


  黄洁夫:这个事情要跟大家讲清楚,正好是相反的,因为正好是有个不阳光、不透明的,那就会导致国家的器官买卖、器官黑市屡禁不止。现在搞公民自愿捐献以后,这是一个阳光、透明、公正、可溯源的(体系),器官分配也是经过电脑的扩大式的分配。这样就能把原来的邪路堵住,走在阳光大道上。

Huang Jiefu: We must make this clear to the public. It is actually the opposite. Because if there is a system which is not transparent to the sunlight, there will be unstoppable state organ trades and organ black market. Now, we established the citizen voluntary donation system which is sunny, transparent, fair and traceable (system). The allocation of organs is an expanded allocation which is done by computers. In such, the evil road will be blocked and we will walk on the sunny road.


  二,不停用死囚器官,器官捐献体系无法获公众信任

  1. If using organs from executed prisoners is not stopped, the organ donation system will not obtain gain public trust


  记者:中国全面停止使用死囚器官作为移植供体来源,如果说死囚自愿捐献,这个途径有吗?

Reporter: China is fully stopping use of organs from executed prisoners as a source of donors, but what if death row inmates want to donate their organs, is this possible?


  黄洁夫:你们要善于学习,你们看看《环球时报》有篇评论员文章,题目叫“尊重死囚,将有更多的国人参加捐献”。(如果说)捐献的阳光体系,跟那种死囚器官的来源不阳光的体系是混在一起的,(那么)这个体系是不可能成立的,人民群众是不可能相信这个体系的。

Huang Jiefu: You need to learn better. Read "Global Times," there is a commentary article titled "By respecting death row prisoners, there will be more people who will participate in donation." (If we say that) the transparent system of donations is mixed with the untransparent system of using death row prisoner organs, then there will not be such a system. People will not believe this system.


  我想告诉你个故事,你知道春节期间有个22岁的法国小伙子,他到这儿来出现事故以后,他父母亲赶来,听说了中国在今年的1月1号已经取消了死囚器官的来源,他觉得中国的器官捐献事业是跟世界接轨的,是阳光的,是透明的,所以他就找了当地的浙江省红十字会,把孩子的一个肝、两个肾、两个肺叶捐献出来,经过我们扩大式分配,救了杭州和无锡的四个人。他的基点是什么?就是中国这个体系是阳光透明的。人们会愿意把他的器官跟死囚器官来源混在一起吗?

I want to tell you a story, you know that there is a 22-year-old French boy who came here during the Spring Festival. He died in an accident and his parents came. The parents heard that China has stopped using organs from executed prison from January 1 this year, and felt that the Chinese organ donation system is now at the world's standard, it is the sunny and transparent, so he [should be ‘they’] found the local Red Cross of Zhejiang Province, and donated the boy’s liver, two kidneys, and two lungs. Through our expanded allocation system, the organs saved four people in Hangzhou and Wuxi. Why did they do that? It’s because our organ donation system is transparent. Will people be willing to put their organs together with organs sourced from executed prisoners?


  美国总统林肯曾说,“A house divided against itself cannot stand.”他说的是一个建筑是由两个不同的材料建的,这个房子很快就会垮掉。所以说在建立公民自愿捐献的时候,不要老是说死囚愿意捐献行不行,其实都是一些伪命题,都是“被捐献”。

The US President Abraham Lincoln once said, "A house divided against itself cannot stand." What he said is that a building constructed by two different materials would soon collapse. So when establishing the citizen voluntary donation system, do not always ask if it is OK for death row inmates to donate organs. In fact, these are false propositions. They "were made to donate."


  同时,最近有个死刑犯,他说愿意捐献器官,媒体就说死囚愿意捐献器官。其实在中国器官捐献有个重要的原则,必须得到家人同意,他的家人,他的父母亲都不同意,都要上诉,都不同意他被判死刑,怎么可能同意他捐献器官呢。

Meanwhile, recently there was a death row inmate who said he was willing to donate organs. Then the media said all death row inmates were willing to donate organs. In fact, in China, there is an important organ donation principle. That is it must be agreed by the prisoner’s family. If his family, his parents, complain, none of them agrees with his receiving the death penalty, then how could they agree to donate his organs?


 所以不要把这个伪命题变成一个真正的童话,要面对现实,要想阳光的地方,不要老是看过去的很尴尬的一页,不要留恋过去。

So do not change this false proposition into a real fairy tale. We need to face reality, under the sun. Do not always look at the past embarrassing page, do not cling to the past.


 
记者:像之前大家都非常非常关注使用死囚器官这件事,也有不少评论提到1984年颁布的一个暂行规定《关于利用死刑罪犯尸体或尸体器官的暂行规定》,这个规定到现在为止还没有被宣布废止。

Reporter: Like before, we are all very, very interested in the question of the use of organs from executed prisoners. There are a lot of comments mentioning an interim provision, the "Provisional Regulations on the Use of the Death Penalty Criminals or Cadaveric Organ of the Body of Criminals," enacted in 1984. This provision has not been abolished even now.


 黄洁夫:看未来,1984年的文不是法,这个规定是秘密的,我也没有看到过,你们为什么能看到呢?那个不是法,国家在公开的层面上,在政府的层面上从来没有承认过利用死囚器官是合法的,那是难堪的一页,是饮鸩止渴,权宜之计。现在我们有阳光的,为什么老是要去废除什么呢?谁承认1984年的那个文件了?

Huang Jiefu: Look to the future, the 1984 document is not a law, this provision is a secret, and I have not seen it before, why are you able to see it? That is not the law, at the state open level, on the government level, there has never been an acknowledgement that the use of organs from executed prisoners is legal, it is an embarrassing page, it is drinking poison to quench one’s thirst, it is expedient. Now we have the sunny system, why do you always want to abolish something? Who acknowledged the existence of the 1984 document?


 我们现在有光明正大的法和条例,2007年的人体器官移植条例;刑法修正案器官买卖罪;2013年8月卫计委下的人体捐献器官获取和分配的规定。

We now have open and aboveboard law and regulations: the “Human Organ Transplant Ordinance” issued in in 2007; the crime of organ trading in Criminal Law Amendment; "Procurement and Allocation Regulations on Donated Human Organs" issued by the Health and Family Planning Commission in August 2013.


 记者:大家现在还有一个顾虑,我们停止使用了之后,目前器官需求比较大,这个缺口会不会进一步扩大?

Reporter: We now have another concern. After we stopped using (organs from executed prisoners), the current demand for organs is relatively large, will this gap become further widened?


 黄洁夫:停止死囚,就是为了要解决器官短缺的问题。为什么我们的器官移植在依赖死囚,为什么多年来徘徊在几千例呢?就是因为不阳光、不透明,器官永远是短缺的,人民群众永远得不到高质量的器官移植服务。因为那种环境,真菌率、细菌感染率都特别高。所以,正是要解决器官短缺的问题,才要公民自愿捐献。

Huang Jiefu: Stopping [the use of] death row [prisoner organs] is indeed to solve the problem of the shortage of organs. Why do we rely on death row inmates for organs, and why over the years the number of organ transplant cases was just around thousands? it’s because the system is not sunny and transparent, so organs are always in shortage and people could never get high-quality organ transplant services. This is because in that kind of environment, fungi rate and bacterial infections are particularly high. Therefore, it is to solve the problem of organ shortage that we need citizens to voluntarily donate their organs.


 宣布停止死囚器官后,1月1号到3月3号,中国大陆是381例器官捐献,937个器官,加上亲体捐献的话,中国的器官捐献已经超过了1千2百例,包括角膜。就是短短两个月时间,还是在春节,春节是人民群众最忌讳谈生死的。所以我写了一篇文章,在《人民政协报》上发表了,我想这可能是姚贝娜在天堂里歌声的感召,也可能是人民群众开始相信这个透明阳光的捐献体系了,所以器官捐献越来越多了。这两个月的数字相比去年增加了一倍。所以我们看到了希望。

After announcing the end of organs from executed prisoners, from January 1 to March 3, in the Chinese mainland, there are 381 cases of organ donation and 937 organs. Adding donations from family members, there are over 1,200 organ transplant cases, including cornea, up until now in China. This is just within two months and during Spring Festival when Chinese people are most taboo to talk about death. So I wrote an article published in the "People's Political Consultative Conference Report". I think maybe it is the appeal from the singing of Yao Beina [a famous singer who recently died] in heaven, or maybe it is that our people begin to believe this sunny and transparent donation system, so the number of donation is increasing. This number of donations in these two months has doubled compared to last year. So we see hope.


  三,有法规已过时,应尽快出台《人体器官移植法》

3. There are regulations but obsolete, should introduce "Human Organ Transplant Act" as soon as possible


 记者:说到现在倡导公民自愿捐献器官,其实过去一个很大的阻碍他们的原因,是因为他们担心捐献体系不公开透明。咱们现在怎么保证公开透明呢?

Reporter: Speaking about advocating citizens to voluntarily donate organs, in fact, a big reason that holds them back in the past is that they are worried about the openness and transparency of the system. How do we ensure the openness and transparency?


 黄洁夫:像《中国青年报》在2014年有一次民调,调查了4万3千多人,调查人员涉及老、中、青,调查结果是45%的人民群众愿意捐献,45%的人民群众不愿意捐献,10%的人民群众不表态。我们再对45%的那部分不同意捐献的人追问为什么不同意,这些人当中有64%的人表示,他们觉得现在捐献体系不公开、不透明、不阳光,特别是跟死囚的器官混在一起。

Huang Jiefu: "China Youth Daily" did a poll in 2014 and surveyed 43,000 people. The survey participants included the elderly, the middle aged and the young people. The results showed that 45% of people were willing to donate, another 45% were unwilling to donate and the other 10% did not provide an answer. We then asked these 45% of people who did not want to donate about why they did not. Among these people, 64% expressed that they felt the current donation system was not open, transparent and sunny, especially that it was mixed with organs from executed prisoners.


 现在我们做什么呢?第一件事是废除死囚器官,我想这中间一大部分人就开始信任我们,这两个东西不要混在一起。另外,当然要制定一些好的政策,包括适合中国国情的政策,要对捐献者的家庭制定一些人道主义的政策。还包括法治建设,也就是我刚才讲的,2007年的条例已经不适应于现在的需要了,必须把2013年的规定,还有2011年的刑法修正案,还有红十字会与卫计委一起合作的器官捐献工作30多部文件整合起来,要打造成一个中国的人体器官移植法,有了法治的建设,就会慢慢地使问题得到解决。

So what do we do now? The first thing is to abolish the use of organs from executed prisoners. I think there will be a large number of people who start to trust us. The two cannot mix together. In addition, of course, we need to develop some good policies, including policies suitable for China's conditions, humanitarian policies for the donor’s family. Also this includes the construction of the rule of law, that is what I have just said, the 2007 regulations is not suitable for current situation, we must put together the regulations in 2013, the Criminal Law Amendment in 2011, the more than 30 documents from the organ donation collaborative work between Red Cross and Health and Family Planning institution, to build a China’s Human Organ Transplant Act. With the construction of the rule of law, problems will slowly get resolved.


 记者:现在这个人体器官移植法进行到什么阶段了?

Reporter: What is the progress of the Human Organ Transplant Act now?


 黄洁夫:靠你们,媒体都帮我们一起宣传,一起让社会知道其重要性,这样的话,我们就能够很快制定,因为法是很重要的!我们讲下智治事、中智治人、上智治法,现在关键是从法律开始做起,我想通过法治的建设,可以明确红十字会、卫计委、医院、移植医生的职责和权力。器官捐献工作,就会蓬蓬勃勃地发展起来。同时随着公民捐献制度的完善,还要制定国家的器官移植作为为人民群众提供的一种基本医疗卫生服务,使广大人民群众都不会因为钱的问题、经济的问题,不能接受救人的医疗。这里面的意义很大,如果说一直在留恋过去的话,永远不可能有普通人民群众能接受这种救命服务的,因为它很昂贵,如果说变成了国家大病救治的一部分(就能让普通民众享受这项服务)。在所有的发达国家,器官移植都是在大病救治的第一位的。所以只要有一个阳光透明的体系,就可以做成这一点。你们要宣传这一点,不要天天讲死囚。

Huang Jiefu: We need to rely on you, all the media to help us to broadcast the news, let the society know the importance of this case. In this way, we will be able to quickly develop it, because law is very important! We say that resolving a specific problem is small wisdom, resolving people’s issues is medium wisdom, resolving the law is the big wisdom. Now, the key is to start with laws. I hope that through the construction of the rule of law, we can make clear the duties and powers of the Red Cross, the Health and Family Planning, hospitals, and transplant doctors.

Organ donation work will be developing in a big way. At the same time, with the improvement of the citizen donation system, we also need to develop the country's organ transplant as a basic health service for people, so that people can access this service without worrying about money and economic problems. The meaning here is significant. If we cling to the past, ordinary people will never have a chance to access this life-saving service, because it is very expensive. But if it becomes part of the country’s severe illness aids, (ordinary people will be able to enjoy this service). In all developed countries, organ transplantation is put at first in severe illness aids. So, as long as there is a sunny and transparent system, we can make it. You need to promote this, do not talk about death row inmates everyday.


 记者:您觉得目前器官移植工作,最紧要要解决的事情是什么?

Reporter: What do you think is the most critical problem to solve currently in the organ transplant work?

黄洁夫:第一个是修订器官移植条例,依法建设。现在每天都有器官捐献的新闻,很多感人的故事在社会中已经深入人心。一个社会的进步,跟国家的观念改变,它都有一个过程,中国的观念改变正在很快地发生。原来是“保尸”、“死者为大”,(现在的观念是)中华民族的慈悲、互助、奉献、救人一命胜造七级浮屠,这样的思想很快代替了原来民族文化中消极的一面,阳光、积极的一面正在显现。

Huang Jiefu: The first is to amend the Organ Transplant Ordinance, constructed it by law. Now every day there are news about organ donation and many touching stories in the society has gone into the deep hearts of people. The improvement of a society and the change in the notion of a country, there needs to be a process. The original notion of Chinese people is to “protect the integrity of the dead body” and “respect the dead”. The current notion is kindness, mutual aid, dedication and “saving a life to build a seven-storey pagoda”. The new notion has quickly replaced the original negative side of our national culture. The positive side is emerging.


  四,目前做器官移植手术的好医生只有200名

IV. Currently there are only about 200 skillful organ transplant doctors
 记者:自2007年《人体器官移植条例》颁布以来,原卫生部对全国600多家开展器官移植的医院进行了重新审核,确定第一批为169家获得OPO资质,继续开展器官移植工作。你曾说2014年年中,将对169家具有器官移植资质的医院进行检查评估,未遵守决议的将被吊销资格,这是一次重新洗牌。我想请问一下评估的结果是什么?医院是因为什么原因被撤销资质?未来还会增加多少移植医院?

Reporter: Since 2007, after the "Human Organ Transplant Ordinance" was enacted, the former Ministry of Health carried out a re-examination to more than 600 organ transplant hospitals nationally, and the first batch of 169 hospitals were determined to be OPO qualified hospitals and these hospitals were allowed to continue on with their organ transplant operations. You've said that at around mid-2014, those 169 previously determined to be OPO qualified hospitals will be re-examined and re-evaluated, those hospitals failed in complying with the resolution, their qualification (in OPO) will be revoked, this is a re-shuffling. I would like to ask what was the results of the re-evaluation? For what reasons would a hospital's qualification be revoked? Will there be an increase in the numbers of qualified organ-transplanting hospitals in the future?


 黄洁夫:在2007年的条例之前,有600多家医院都在进行器官移植,这600多家良莠不齐、鱼龙混杂,那时候器官移植的质量是很差的,很多不具备器官移植资质的医院也做器官移植。所以那一年的存活率是全世界最低的

。Huang Jiefu: Prior to the 2007 regulation, there were more than 600 hospitals that were performing organ transplants. The quality of organ transplanting among them varied tremendously. Some were with very poor quality, and many of them did not qualify to do organ transplants but were doing organ transplants. So the yearly survival rate was the lowest in the world that year.


 在这种情况下,2007年的条例下发以后,为了保障人民群众的生命安全,医疗质量是第一位的,那个时候还没有讲到器官捐献,第一步就是对医院的资质和技术进行评估,确定了164家具备了器官移植的水平,有好医生,有好设备。

Under that circumstance, after the 2007 regulation was issued, in order to protect the safety of people's lives, the health and quality is the first priority for consideration. At that time it had not come to the subject of organ donation, the first step was to assess the hospital's qualifications and technologies, 164 of them were found to align with the level required for organ transplant, that these hospitals were with qualified doctors and good equipments.


 2010年推广公民自愿捐献以后,有个政策,有些医院要申请进入到移植队伍的,它要完成高质量的医疗卫生服务,同时要主动参与10例以上的公民自愿捐献就可以申报。在这个过程中又有5家医院申报通过了,就变成了169家资质医院。

After 2010 when the civic voluntary donation were promoted, there was a new policy: any hospital that wants to apply for the permit in doing organ transplantation needs to have complete high-quality health services, and on top of that, there needed to be more than 10 cases of active participation of citizens who declared a voluntary donation with that hospital. Consequently there were five more hospitals who passed, so the total number of qualified hospitals becomes 169.


 随着公民自愿捐献的不断成熟,大气候的形成,我想中国不能是169家,我想应该是200家,最好是300家,这样才能满足人们现在的医疗需求。现在169家是合在一起的,肝脏才70多家,肾脏才80多家,心脏还不到20家,肺脏才10多家,现在很多器官是浪费的,心脏、肺脏没有多医生,也没有那么多医院。所以我想随着公民捐献成气候,中国的器官移植的医院要不断增加。现在能做器官移植的医生只有几百个,真正技术好的,我记得上名字的也就是200多人。所以对老百姓那么大的群体,如果能够放到医保的话,会有很多病人需要做器官移植。所以必须通过一个阳光的、透明的环境,培养出更多的医生来,我希望在三五年时间内,国家器官移植医院能达到300家,我希望我们移植医生变成1千到2千个,我希望协调员队伍也变成1千到2千人的队伍,这样器官移植事业就有希望了。

With more voluntary donor citizens coming to light, the environment of transplant is becoming more mature, I think China will have more than 169 qualified hospitals, maybe 200? Preferably 300, so as to meet the medical needs of people. There are 169 altogether now, and only more than 70 liver transplant capable ones,  for kidney transplant capable ones, it was just a bit more than 80, and there are less than 20 heart transplant capable hospitals, and only just above 10 of them for lungs. Many organs are wasted, there are too few of the heart and lung specialist doctors, nor are there many capable hospitals. So I think that with more citizens joining in the donation program, the number of China's organ transplant hospitals must continue to increase. Organ transplant qualified doctors are numbered, as far as I know only slightly more than 200 people. So for a big number of health insurers in place, there would be a lot more organ transplant patients. So we must have an open, transparent environment for organ transplant, with more training of transplant doctors. I hope that within three to five years, the number of National Organ Transplant hospitals can reach 300, and I hope we can have 1,000 to 2,000 transplant doctors, then there is hope for the cause of organ transplantation.


 记者:已经获得资质的医院,有可能会被刷下来吗?

Reporter: For those already qualified hospitals, is there any chance that any of them be brushed down [i.e. their qualification stripped]?


 黄洁夫:器官移植是一个很专业的手术,有很多评分体系的,如果达不到要求,当然要刷下来。当然有(被刷下来的例子),这169家是动态的。

Huang Jiefu: Organ transplantation is a very professional operation, there are a lot of scoring systems; if any is found to be below the standard, then of course they will be brushed down. Of course the answer is yes (that there were brushed down examples), this number of 169 is dynamic.


 记者:移植医院在全国的分布区域很不均衡,这就意味着很多没有移植医院的城市需要到北上广这样的大城市里来,会进一步加剧器官资源缺乏的情况。而那些没有移植医院的地区如果发现潜在受体又该如何处理?

Reporter: The area distribution of the transplant hospital in the country is quite uneven, this means that many people from the cities that do not have the transplant hospitals will have to come to places such as the north, and the situation will be further exacerbated by the lack of organ resources. What is to be done for the areas that do not have transplant hospitals but with identifiable potential recipients?


 黄洁夫:现在为什么集中在大医院呢?因为以前都是依靠那种来源(指死囚器官),一定是集中在大医院。所以当阳光、透明的体系建设成了,县医院、地区医院也可以申请做器官移植,这是一个过程。所以我想随着器官移植事业的发展,以后像肾移植最好在好的县医院就能够开展,要有一批能够开展器官移植服务的县医院和地区医院,这样的话就可以撒到全国去了,但这有一个过程,靠大家宣传动员。

Huang Jiefu: Why is it that now it's focused in large hospitals doing [transplants]? Because in the past they relied on that kind of source (referring to organs from executed prisoners), so it must be concentrated in large hospitals. So when the transplant system became more transparent and open, the county hospitals and district city hospitals can also apply for an organ transplants. It’s a process. So I think with the development of the cause of organ transplants, kidney transplants can be carried out in good county hospitals later on, and  there will be a number of services to carry out organ transplants at county hospitals and district city hospitals. It can be nation wide, but there is a process to achieve that. We rely on propaganda and mobilization.


 五,红会配合建立器官移植体系

V.  Red Cross's help in establishing the organ transplant system


 记者:在医学层面上,我们并不鼓励活体移植?

Reporter: At the medical level, we don't really encourage living donor transplant?


 黄洁夫:昨天的材料显示全国等待器官移植的有2.2万人,按照今年前两个月公民自愿捐献器官的情况,今年至少可以完成1万例器官捐献,所以实际上是1:2,1个器官有2个人需要,不是你们想的1:150,这都是一些传来传去的数字,已经离开事实真相太远。

Huang Jiefu: Yesterday there was a document which showed that in the national waiting list for organ transplants there are 22,000 people, according to the previous two months' statistics in voluntarily organ donation citizens, at least 10,000 cases of organ donation, it is actually in a ratio of 1: 2, for 1 organ there are two individual needs, not what you think of 1: 150, which was too far from the true facts.


 你刚才讲的活体移植,如果有公民生后的捐献,为什么要用活体捐献呢?在医学上有个希波克拉底誓言,不要对你服务的对象造成伤害。首先活体捐献就是伤害,不管是拿一个肾还是拿半个肝,都是很大的手术,尤其是取半个肝是个风险很高的手术。为了救一个人,要冒着牺牲另外一个人的生命为代价,这个事情不是国家鼓励的。可是,也可以是不得已而为之,如果有公民生后捐献多的话,我们当然鼓励大爱的捐献,活体的捐献也要控制。

As for living donor transplants you've just mentioned: if (we have) registered organ donors, why use living donors then? In medicine there is a Hippocratic oath which states 'do not cause harm to the object of your service'. First of all, the living organ donation is damage done (to donor's body), whether it is to get a kidney or taking out half a liver. The surgeries are major ones, especially when taking out half a liver, it's a high-risk surgery operation. In order to save a person, if it is with the expense of risking another person's life, then this thing is not encouraged by the state. However, it can be a last resort, if there are registered organ donors, then of course we’ll encourage the big-hearted donations. Living organ donation needs to be controlled.


 记者:2014年3月,中国器官捐献和移植委员会成立,您担任了首任主席。您曾在采访中说过,这是通过第三方介入的方式来保证整个捐赠和使用过程的公开透明。您能说说这一年的工作成果吗?

Reporter: In March 2014, China set up the Committee of Organ Donation and Transplantation, and you served as the first chairman. You have said in the interview, that it was  a way of having third-party intervention to ensure that the entire donation and use (of organs) was an open and transparent process. Can you talk about the results of the work for the past year?


 黄洁夫:这个器官捐献和移植委员会,是在卫计委和红十字会的领导下,在国务院的领导关心和支持下,形成一个完成我国器官移植整个服务的顶层设计的一个委员会,也制定相关的政策。上面有人大和全国政协,国家的领导人作为名誉主席来指导这个委员会的工作。

Huang Jiefu: The establishment of the Organ Donation and Transplantation Committee was under the leadership of the Health Planning Commission and the Red Cross, under the care and support of the leaders of the State Council, to form a committee on the top of the whole organ transplant services to complete the structural design, but also for developing relevant policies. Above of it there would be leaders from the People's Committee and the CPPCC National Committee, as honorary chairmen of this committee to guide the work.


 我是担任了主席委员,为什么呢?我今年很快就69岁了,按照道理讲,我已经退出了行政工作岗位,因为我是器官移植医生,也由于器官移植队伍和老百姓对我的信任,组织对我的信任,叫我来组建这个委员会。但是人总要退的,我现在也是积极地老骥伏枥,壮心不已。还有一年多时间,我希望把这个框架建设好,让年富力强的同志来继续引领这个工作。因为器官捐献移植工作需要一个懂专业,同时要在国际国内有影响,能够指挥这支队伍的人,我想我们这支队伍中间有很多这样的好的中青年,他们会很快地成长起来。

I chaired the committee, and why? I am 69 years old soon, and according to logic I should be out of the administrative work now, because I am an organ transplant doctor, also because the community of transplant doctors, and ordinary people, trust me, so they told me to set up this committee. But people need to retire, and I am now actively working against my age and encouraging myself. I hope in an another year or more I can build up this framework, so that the prime comrades can continue to lead this work. Because the organ donation transplant work has  the need for a professional, and a domestically and internationally influential person who can command the team, I think we have a lot of such young and middle age people in the team, they will become mature (in this profession) quickly.


 记者:现在器官捐献工作有一部分是需要红十字会来配合完成的,需要红会去宣传动员,或者对捐献者家庭进行人道主义救助。现在红十字会在中国的声誉非常差,这个会不会影响到我们器官捐献工作的开展?

Reporter: Currently part of the organ donation work has the need of corporation from the Red Cross, it needs the propaganda and mobilization from the Red Cross, or to help the donor families with humanitarian aid. However the Red Cross now has a very poor in reputation in China, so will this affect the work of the Red Cross in organ donation tasks?


 黄洁夫:我很不同意你的讲话,红十字会的声誉特别的差,我不想你这么说。在建国以后,红十字会在国家的慈善事业上发挥了巨大的作用,做出了很难被人否定的贡献。Huang Jiefu: I am very much not in agreement with your speech , especially the bit about the poor reputation of the Red Cross, I do not want you to say it this way. After the establishment of the country [i.e. founding of the PRC], the Red Cross has made great contributions to national philanthropy, its contribution are difficult to negate.


 红十字会是国家最大的人道主义救助团体,红十字会的精神:大爱、奉献,很多都是深深扎根在中国土地上的。不能因为一个“郭美美事件”就把红十字会说得一无是处。我觉得要把红十字会组织多年来的功和过分得很清楚。红十字会在我们国家的地位是不可取缔的,红十字会献血、骨髓,现在又献器官,三献是红十字会的重要工作。

Red Cross is the nation's largest humanitarian relief organization, the Red Cross Spirit is: love, devotion. Many of which are deeply rooted in the land of China. One should not negate all its merit because of one "Guo Meimei incident" [a scandal that tarnished the reputation of the China Red Cross]. I feel there is a need to  clearly separate the good contribution and the mistakes from the Red Cross organization for all these years. Red Cross’s role in our country is irreplaceable: the Red Cross' blood donation, bone marrow donation, and now the organ donation program, these three offerings is important work from the Red Cross.


  2009年,我们开始安排红十字会与卫生行政部门共同来完成器官捐献工作,红十字会做出了重大贡献。事实证明了没有红十字会的参与,就没有中国器官资源自愿捐献的事业。有多少感人的故事!广东省红十字会的赵丽珍、协调员高敏、红十字会的李劲东,太多了。

In 2009, we began to organize the Red Cross and the health administrative departments work together to complete the organ donation program, the Red Cross has made a significant contribution. The facts prove that without the involvement of the Red Cross, there is no Chinese voluntarily organs donation industry. How many touching stories! Guangdong Province's Red Cross memember Zhao Lizhen, coordinator Gao Min, Li Jindong to name a few, there are just  too many such examples.


 要知道器官捐献协调员工作是很伟大的,他要在一个家庭失去亲人的痛苦中,能够安慰这些家人,能够把生命的挽歌形成一次生命的升华,上到天堂去。同时他也把家属的悲痛用另外一种救人的行为减轻。红十字会的协调人员是相当不简单的,他要有很好的人文素养,他要有科学知识。所以不要对红会永远留下“郭美美事件”的成见,我相信通过公民自愿捐献事业的不断发展,红十字会的作用、地位将进一步地显现,多点宣传红会。To know that organ donation coordinator was so great, he needs to work on a family in pain, a family which just lost loved ones and is in pain, it is possible for them to comfort the family, for them to able to form a life-time elegy when lives go on to heaven. He also put the grief of the families in another rescue act. Red Cross coordinator is quite extraordinary,
and he must have a very good human qualities, he must have scientific knowledge. So do not think of Red Cross forever as "Mei Mei Guo event" stereotypes, I believe that as the continuous development of the citizens' voluntary donation program, the important role of the Red Cross will become more apparent. So we need more publicity of the Red Cross.


 记者:您刚才也提到了协调员,在我们整个器官捐献系统中,协调员是第一步的,去发现器官。但是我们也看到不少协调员在抱怨工作的难以开展,待遇和地位都不怎么好,您怎么看?Reporter: You just mentioned that the coordinator in the organ donation in our system, the coordinator's role is most important in finding organs. But we also see a lot of complaining about the work from the coordinator that it is difficult to carry out their, also the treatments the received and their status is not that good, what do you think of it?


 黄洁夫:你讲的是对的,协调员的工作相当不简单,对协调员的要求是相当高的。他应该是在社会中具有很高的人际交流,同时要具有很深厚的人文精神素养的人。可是现在任何事都在起步,公民自愿捐献工作时间不长,国家的器官捐献和移植委员会是2013年3月1号才正式成立,这个捐献事业还是个新生的婴儿,不能对新生的婴儿求全,而是要让大家去呵护它、培养它、关照它,让它健康成长。包括协调员也一样,要关心他们,要给他们创造条件,包括待遇、社会地位、工作环境,要通过工作去实现,而不是嘴上说他们工作很难。我们一定要以一个积极的心态,给他们的发展提供正能量。

Huang Jiefu: What you have said is right, the coordinator's work is quite extraordinary, requirements  to coordinators are very high. He should be a high interpersonal person in the society, at the same he has to have a very profound humanistic spirit and a literate person. But now things are at the starting point. the National Commission on organ donation and transplantation program was established at 1st of March, 2013. The cause of this organ donation program is just a newborn baby, one can not demand perfection on newborn babies, one should care for it, cultivate it, take care of it, let it grow up healthily,  it includes the coordinators, too, we need to care for them, give them proper treatments, social status, working conditions through work, rather than just working hard on our lips. We must take a positive attitude to their development to provide positive energy.


 六,世卫组织解除对中国器官移植研究“封杀”
VI. World Health Organization removing sanctions against Chinese organ transplant research

  记者:现在大家称呼中国为世界第二器官移植大国,这个头衔也有人评论其实只是因为中国人口多。
Q: Nowadays, people say China performs the second largest number of transplants. Some say that this is simply because of China’s large population.

   黄洁夫:这个帽子是世界卫生组织定的,世界卫生组织根据中国器官移植的数量、种类,有肝、肾、心、肺、胰肾联合移植、多器官移植,从这个技术的掌握程度和每年近1万例(的移植手术),那是在世界上排在第二位的。所以按世界卫生组织关于器官移植的指导原则,中国是第二器官移植大国。
HJ: This “hat” was determined by the WHO based on the types of transplants done, such as liver, kidney, lung, heart, pancreas-kidney combined, and multi-organ transplants; as well as the 10,000 transplants performed per year in China. According to the principles defined by WHO, we are number 2 in the world.

记者:您怎么看这顶帽子呢?
Q: What do you think about this “hat”?

  黄洁夫:假如公民自愿捐献成了气候,我们是理所当然的、受之无愧的、光明正大的第二大国。如果是像过去那条路那样,那我就会感觉到羞耻,我觉得不应该叫做移植大国。
HJ: If citizen voluntary donation became the norm, then we are for sure number 2 in the world, without reservations. If we remain the same as before, then we feel shameful of ourselves. I think we should not be called a “big transplant nation.”

   实际上世界卫生组织根据数字说我们是第二大国,但从来没有承认过我们是世界的器官移植大国,连国家都不承认。世界卫生组织对我们是三不,不同意我们器官 移植的医生在国际会议上宣读论文;中国有关器官移植的文章,包括临床文章,在世界所有著名的杂志上不能发表;不接受中国成为世界上任何器官移植协会的会 员。这是三不。目前在国际上真正参加TTS(国际器官移植协会)的就剩我一个人,你能说是大国吗?

In fact, WHO said we are number 2 in the world based on numbers. But they never acknowledged that we are a “big transplant nation.” They don’t even recognize us as a country. The WHO has 3 sanctions against us: no allowing our transplant surgeons to read their thesis at international conferences; transplant papers from China, including those clinical research papers, are not allowed to be published in international medical journals; China is not accepted as a member of any international transplant committee. This is the so-called “3-No.” Currently, I am the only remaining member of the TTS. How can you say that China is a big (transplant) nation?
 

记者:现在这“三不”还有效吗?

Q: Is the “3-No” still in effect now?
 黄洁夫:取消死囚以后,我们已经得到全世界所有器官移植协会的高度赞扬,包括罗马教皇,他称这是中国器官移植事业、中国司法和人权的重大进步。全世界所有的媒体都在赞扬中国,他们的原话就说,他们已经伸开双手,准备欢迎中国进入世界移植大家庭。

HJ: After we ended using the executed prisoners’ organs, we have received enthusiastic praises from all the transplant committees in the world, including the Pope, who said that it is an important progress in China’s transplant industry, judiciary system and the human rights. All media in the world are praising China. Their original wordings are, they are prepared to welcome China into the big worldwide family of transplantation with open arms.
  所以在这个时候,我正在筹备,今年下半年举行一次中国光明正大地登上世界移植舞台的会议。我想,到时候世界卫生组织的,还有全球器官移植协会的主席,还 有伊斯坦布尔宣言的145个国家的器官移植团体的主席,他们都向我发来了贺信,同时他们都说一定要来参加这个会议,他们会在那个会议上宣布废除这个三不, 你们要把这个消息告诉老百姓。

Therefore, at this point, I am preparing to organize a conference in the second half of this year. This is to showcase China’s entry to the world’s stage of transplantation in an open and dignified manner. I believe, the chairperson of WHO, the directors of all the transplant committees in the world, as well as the chairpersons from all 145 member nations of the Istanbul Declaration have sent congratulatory letters to me and promised that they will for sure attend the conference (that I am planning). They also said that they will formally declare the “3-No” ineffective at the conference. You (the media) should tell this news to the general public.


Date: 2015/3/16

Publication: Phoenix (via Caijing)

Link: http://politics.caijing.com.cn/20150316/3840670.shtml 

Archive: https://drive.google.com/file/d/0ByxwXcZlX2dXYnFaM0tpZFZEd0U/view?usp=sharing 

Title: “Former Health Minister: Zhou Yongkang’s downfall broke the profit chain using death row prisoner organs” | 原卫生部副部长:周永康落马打破死囚器官移植利益链

Full version of item: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1MsRulSfmlwKAHPumT1HyRLatf0sFXJaVkA35PqhEEPQ/edit?usp=sharing 

Key Content:

Xu Gehui (reporter with pro-Beijing Phoenix Television): Minister Huang, we know that shortly after this organ donation and transplant, you personally delivered a thank-you letter to the French Embassy.

黄洁夫(中国政协常委 中国器官捐献与移植委员会主任委员):这个小奥的爸爸妈妈是从法国专门到了杭州,他们得知了这个中国已经是1月1号取消了死刑器官的利用,这样他们才做的决定,所以这个有特别重要的意义。

Huang: This young man’s parents came to Hangzhou from France. When they were told that China has stopped using executed prisoners’ organs, they made the decision. Therefore, this has a very important meaning.

许戈辉:对,这到底意味着什么?

Xu: Right. What on earth does this mean?

黄洁夫:他捐这个器官,这表示中国的器官,这个捐献的体系已经是是阳光透明的了(外国人说),同时他们参加这个捐献呢,实际上是对我们的捐献体系的高度肯定。因为这个是生命的礼物,如果是个肮脏的,是一个说不清楚的地方,外国人是不愿意做这件事情的。

Huang: He donated the organs. This means that China’s organ donation system is already transparent (foreigners say). In the meantime, their participation of the donation system is in fact a significant acceptance of our donation system. Because this is a gift of life, if it was a filthy and unclear area, foreigners would not want to do this.

许戈辉:这样一件看似就是普通的、洋雷锋的这样一个事情,在您心目中具有如此不同的分量,那这一定是和我们中国这个器官移植捐赠,走过的一条不平坦的道路有关系。我们不妨先回顾一下,到底我们走过一条怎么样的路。

Xu: Such an ordinary incident has such great impression in your mind, must because China’s road to organ donation has been turbulent. Let’s look back at what we’ve been through.

解说:据统计,中国有超过三十万人群急需进行器官移植,然后每年器官移植手术却仅为一万多例,在广州中山附一医院,这里有大量的肾衰患者,排队等待移植。

Narrator: According to statistics, there are over 300,000 people in China waiting for organs. But each year, only about 10,000 transplants are performed. In the No. 1 Affiliated Hospital of Sun Yat-sen University in Guangzhou, there are many kidney failure patients waiting in line for kidneys.  

等待肾移植患者:肾源很少,然后什么死刑的器官都没有了,感觉就是以后越来越少了,机会越来越渺茫了。

Patient: There were very little kidneys. Now even executed prisoners’ organs are gone. I feel there will be fewer and fewer (organs), and (my) chance is getting more and more scarce.

张玲(广州中山大学附属第一医院住院医师):因为感觉机会也比较渺茫,所以在漫长的等待过程中,有一些人可能就放弃了。

Zhang Ling (Resident Physician, No.1 Affiliated Hospital of Sun Yat-sen University): Many people gave up during the long wait, because they felt there was very little chance.

解说:1972年,中国第一例人体器官移植手术在广州中山医院完成,如今,这里成为了中国最大的器官移植手术中心之一。

Narrator: China’s first human organ transplant was done in 1972 in Sun Yat-sen Hospital in Guangzhou. Nowadays, it has become one of the largest transplant centers in China.

何晓顺(中山大学附属第一医院副院长、东院院长):早在1972年,我们就做了肾脏移植,这例移植也是整个亚洲第一例亲属活体移植,1978年做的中国第一例甲状腺移植,1993年做的第一个肝脏移植,一路发展到现在,应该说是历史是蛮久的。

He Xiaoshun (Deputy Director of No.1 Affiliated Hospital of Sun Yat-sen University, Director of the East Campus): As early as 1972, we did a kidney transplant, which was Asia’s first living donor kidney transplant between family members. China’s first thyroid transplant was done in 1978. China’s first liver transplant was done in 1993. All the way until now, the history is quite long.

解说:据介绍,在2010年以前,中国尚未建立公民捐献体系,器官供体主要由死囚犯提供。在黄洁夫等人的努力下,2015年,卫生部宣布,中国全面禁止死囚器官移植,这对于实施死囚器官捐献制度20多年的中国来说,是一次巨大的进步。

Narrator: According to sources, prior to 2010 when there was no citizen donation system in China, the organs mainly came from executed prisoners. With the hard work of Huang Jiefu and others, the Ministry of Health announced an end to using executed prisoners organs in 2015. This is a great progress for China after implementing an executed prisoners donation system for 20 years.

许戈辉:到底有多少人在等待器官移植?

Xu: Exactly how many people are waiting for organ transplant?

黄洁夫:2.2万,就是海波他们那,他们那的数字,现在在全中国大陆,不包括香港、台湾,全中国现在等待器官移植的是2.2万人,这个是准确的数字。为什么呢?为什么现在才有这个准确数字呢?就是我们取消了死刑器官的来源以后,变成一个透明、阳光的,可以追溯,可溯源的这样器官移植体系。

Huang: 22,000. This data comes from Haibo. In mainland China, not including Hong Kong and Taiwan, there are 22,000 people waiting for organ transplant. This is the exact number. Why? Why do we have this exact number now? Because after we eliminated the executed prisoners’ organs, it transformed into a transparent, sunny, traceable organ transplant system.

许戈辉:您说由于取消了死囚器官移植,这个事变得透明了,可是之前这个需求量有什么可不透明的呢?

Xu: You said because there is no more executed prisoners’ organs for transplant, this matter became transparent. But how come this number of how many people need organs was not transparent before?

黄洁夫:死刑是国家的秘密,是吗?

Huang: Death penalty is a state secret, right?

许戈辉:但是病患并不是秘密呀。这个对不起,我真的不懂。

Xu: But illness is not a secret. I am sorry, I really don’t understand.

黄洁夫:你器官的来源是来自于死刑犯。

Huang: The source of organs was executed prisoners.

许戈辉:是,就是器官的来源它可以是秘密,但是这个,就是等待这个也是秘密是吗?

Xu: Yes. That is to say the source of organs can be a secret. But this number of how many people are waiting for organs does not have to be a secret, right?

黄洁夫:那你从死,不是那你能够做多少,那就不是都是知道你是国家的秘密了吗?

Huang: [rumbling half sentences, no logically connection between sentences, hard to translate] You take (organs) from the prisoners, how many (transplants) you did, then wouldn’t everyone know the state secret?

许戈辉:那它应该小于这个数字才对呀,还有一个原因就是。

Xu: Then the number (waiting for prisoners’ organs) should be smaller than the number now. There is another reason. [incomplete sentence]

黄洁夫:你说这个太敏感,所以我不能跟你讲得太清楚,你一想就想清楚了,一定这个事情,因为你国家没有个透明的体现,这怎么来的你也不知道,做多少也是秘密,那这样的,实际上很多东西,都是一笔糊涂帐,是多少你不清晰。可是在实际上,一个器官移植不是说你有指征就能做的,第一要钱,简单的说,因为我们现在,我们国家的器官移植,不是属于高端医疗卫生服务,一般的人是很难负担几十万这个器官移植的费用的。但是这个手术,还有术后的维持,一个肝移植最少要60万以上,一个肾移植也要30万以上,所以对一些普通的老百姓是天文数字。所以很多人是因为这个,他30万中间有相当一部分人是交不起这个钱,他就不做了。

Huang: What you just said is too sensitive, so I can’t talk about it too clearly. You think about it, you will understand. Because if your country has no transparency, you don’t know how the organs were obtained, the transplant numbers are also secrets. Therefore, in fact many things were messed up, you cannot be clear about it. But in fact, it is not that as soon as you have the match you can do the transplant. First, money is required. Simply put, organ transplant is not categorized as an advanced medical service in our country. It’s very difficult for ordinary persons to pay the tens of thousands yuan medical expenses. But then there are also post-surgical procedures. A liver transplant costs at least 600,000 yuan. A kidney transplant costs at least 300,000 yuan. This is an impossible amount of money for ordinary people. Many people can’t afford it so they don’t want to do it.

许戈辉:所以就不在这个名单之内?

Xu: So they are not on this (wait) list?

黄洁夫:他不可能在这个名单,这个我们只有169家医院,你知道吧?医院的门他都进不了,怎么可能在名单里。其实器官移植是最最重要的大病,因为它是生和死之间的决策,所以政府影响是对器官功能衰竭的病人,应该是国家来从医保中间来支付,那这样就变成我们国家的穷人也有资格,也有这个权利,也有这个可能性,来接受器官移植了。

Huang: It is impossible for them to be on the wait list. We have only 169 hospitals [allowed to perform organ transplant]. Do you know? They can’t even get in the door of these hospitals, how can they be on the wait list. Organ transplant is a very very important illness, because it is between life and death. So the government’s influence to those patients with organ failures should be paying for the transplant from the health insurance. This way, the poor people in our country also have the right and possibility to obtain an organ transplant.

许戈辉:回过头再去看距离您在2005年,在国际会议上首次承认,我们中国是使用死囚器官,整整过去了十年。

Xu: Looking back at 2005 when you, for the first time, said China uses organs from executed prisoners at an international conference. It’s been ten years.

黄洁夫:十年,就是十年磨一剑。

Huang: ten years, ten years sharpening one sword.

许戈辉:所以这样会回过头来去想一想的话,这十年的路走的可真是不容易。

Xu: so when we think about these ten years, it must not be easy.

黄洁夫:是。

Huang: yes.

许戈辉:是吧?

Xu: right?

黄洁夫:海波可能是最有体会的。

Huang: Haibo might be the one with the most experience (with the difficulties).

王海波(中国人体器官分配与共享计算机系统设计 世界卫生组织器官移植项目顾问):对,非常坎坷。

Wang Haibo (China Organ Transplant Response System advisor): right, very turbulent.  

许戈辉:在你看来,最难得结点是在什么地方?

Xu: From your perspective, what is the most difficult part?

王海波:在我看来,最难的结点是当我们能够技术和学术上突破,能够和国际接轨,构建出一套公平高效的器官分配计算机系统的时候,这个系统怎么能够在我们国家落地,怎么能够全国都接受它,都使用它。

Wang Haibo: We’ve overcome the technical difficulties, were able to establish a computerized organ distribution system with high efficiency and fairness; and were able to meet the international standards. After all these were accomplished, came the most difficult part. From my perspective, it has to do with using the system in our country, getting everyone to accept the system and to use the system.

黄洁夫:最无力的时候是什么时候,他也是不大敢说,最无力的时候,是我们要下定决心取消死囚器官依赖的时候。因为这个死囚器官几十年,首先我想这样说,戈辉,准确地表达这个意思,这个我们是很感谢司法部门的大多数的同志,没有他们的配合,没有死囚器官的捐献,就没有中国器官移植事业的,今天在技术上的成熟,这点你同意吗?同时我也想,他们中间的大多数人都是依法的,按照一定的规定来做的,但是我们国家很大,这个死囚器官这个来源,它自然而然地这种体制,就造成了中间的很多说不清道不明的问题。你听得懂我这个话的意思了吗?所以。

Huang Jiefu: The most helpless period we've been in... is when we decided to stop the reliance on executed prisoners for organ transplants. Because [we’ve been using] these executed prisoners’ organs for several dozens of years… First I want to put it this way, to be accurate, we are grateful for most comrades in the judiciary system. Without their cooperation, without the donation from executed prisoners, there would have been no transplantation in China, and there would not be any advancement in [transplantation] technology in China. Do you agree? In the meantime, I believe most of them in the judiciary system abide by the law. But our country is very big. This source of using prisoner organs, this kind of situation naturally would come to have all kinds of murky and difficult problems in it. You know what I'm trying to say? So.

许戈辉:这中间肯定是有着千丝万缕的这种瓜葛、利益、利益链,所以它就会变得肮脏。

Xu Gehui (reporter with pro-Beijing Phoenix Television): In the midst of all this there must be every kind of entanglement, intertwining of interests, and a profit chain, so it would have become very filthy.

黄洁夫:变得肮脏,变得说不清道不明,变成了一个为什么特别敏感、特别复杂的区域,就是这个禁区,应该是去年是最关键的一年。

Huang Jiefu: It became filthy, it became murky and intractable, it became an extremely sensitive, extremely complicated area, basically a forbidden area. Last year was the most crucial year.

王海波:对。

Wang Haibo: Right

黄洁夫:2014年,是中国器官移植中间接受考验的一年,这个时候我们很感谢党中央国务院,有这样好的氛围,这种氛围是建立在什么?反腐败,没有这个打老虎、打苍蝇,就没有我们今天的宣布取消这个,明白我的意思了吗?所以这个是国际国内的环境,特别是我们国内反腐倡廉的大的气候,才能够使我们能够宣布这一点。

Huang Jiefu: 2014 was the transitional test period for Chinese organ transplantation. We really thank the Party Central State Council for having the kind of attitude and atmosphere. What was this atmosphere? Anti-corruption. If there was no attacking the tigers and smashing the flies, we wouldn't be here today abolishing the system. You know what I'm saying? So the domestic and international environment, especially the climate of anti-corruption, clean government, that's the only way we were able to publicize this.

许戈辉:为什么打大老虎,就能把这个死囚器官这个事情,能够给推翻呢?这大老虎到底是指什么人啊?

Xu Gehui: Why, after attacking the big tiger, were you able to overturn this system of using executed prisoner organs? Who is this big tiger, after all?

黄洁夫:太清楚了,大老虎这个知道,周永康是大老虎,周永康是我们政法委书记,是这个原来的政治局常委,这个大家都知道的。这个报纸天天在这讲他的背景的。那这个死囚器官的来源在哪里,这不是很清晰了吗?实际上这件工作是得到了上一届的胡锦涛总书记和温家宝总理的支持,这一届得到了习主席跟克强总理的支持,不然是很难完成这件事情的。

Huang Jiefu: It's just too clear. Everyone knows the big tiger. Zhou Yongkang is the big tiger; Zhou Yongkang was our chief of Political & Legal Affairs Committee, originally a member of the Politburo Standing Committee. Everyone knows this. There are newspapers every day talking about his background. So as for where executed prisoner organs come from, isn't it very clear? Actually, this work received the support from the previous General Secretary, Hu Jintao, and premier Wen Jiabao, and currently serving Xi Jinping and premier Li Keqiang's support. Otherwise we couldn't have done this.

解说:2010年,卫生部启动了器官捐献工作试点,为了更科学有效地为器官分配进行管理,在试点进行之前,卫生部委托专家设计了中国人体器官分配与共享计算机系统。

Narrator: In 2010, the Ministry of Health (MOH) launched a trial system for organ donation. In order to be more scientifically oriented in the organ distribution and management, prior to the trial, the MOH asked experts to design a computerized system for organ distribution.

江文诗(中国器官分配与共享系统研究中心):整个国家的器官分配原则里面,有390多页我记得,390多页,如果要是390多页里面,每一条原则得用人手计算的话,我们曾经估算过,一次器官分配,可能要用60个小时,才能人手才能把它算出来,谁应该获得这个器官。那现在我们信息能力的发展,所以现在我们把这个计算的这个环节交给了计算机,由计算机来忠诚地执行这些国家的圈套的器官分配一个过程。

Jiang Wenshi (COTRS research center): The nation’s complete organ distribution guideline is over 390 pages. We estimated roughly 60 hours to manually go through the guideline to determine the organ distribution. So now, we have computers to do this task for us. The computers will do this loyally based on the guideline.  

们现在演示的是一个肝脏的一个分配,那在所有的带星号的信息填完整之后呢,咱们的OPO(人体器官获取组织)就可以开始,就是出发这种器官的匹配,系统进行这个器官的匹配。医院移植中心它接收到系统,得到推送的一个信息,告诉它有一个分配的器官,匹配到他们医院的其中的一个等待者,然后他是排第五位。因为我们每次会推送五个人,然后这个医院是匹配到的是第五位的等待者。这里也一个按纽,如果卫生行政监管部门,发现这个分配过程有任何的可疑的地方,尽管是已经分配了,但是他们也可以收回分配的权利。

We are now showing how a liver is being distributed. After all the required information is filled in, our OPO (Organ Procurement Organization) can start the process of systematic matching. Then a transplant center will receive a message from the system telling them there is a match for one of its waiting patients. Every time, we select 5 recipients. In this case, this center is told that they are the number five. Here is a button. If the administrative monitoring agency discovered something suspicious during the distribution process, they can reverse the decision even though the organ has been distributed.

解说:2013年9月1日,革命卫计委强制要求使用由该系统进行器官分配,由此,中国的器官匹配,开始全部由计算机系统自动完成。2014年,该系统正式纳入中国器官移植发展基金会进行管理

Narration: Sept. 1, 2013, National Health and Family Planning Committee (NHFPC, formally the Ministry of Health) mandated the use of the computerized system. This started the computerized organ distribution in China. Starting 2014, the system is formally managed by China Organ Transplantation Development Foundation.

许戈辉:我想知道这样一套系统,是参照一些什么样的比如说国际上已经使用的,已经被证明比较公平、合理、透明,这样的体系来的,又是由哪些参照了我们国家的具体情况?

Xu: I’d like to know if the system is based on internationally proven guidelines and if they have been adapted to our country’s specific situation?

王海波:2009年的时候,我们就开始了这个器官分配政策的研究,因为大家有一个误解,觉得器官分配的计算机系统,它是的主体是个计算机。

Wang Haibo: We started the research of organ distribution policy in 2009. People have this misunderstanding that the main entity of the system is the computer.

许戈辉:不是吗?

Xu: Isn’t it so?

王海波:它实际上,它是围绕着。

Wang Haibo: It is actually surrounded.

许戈辉:不是只有它的主体是计算机这事,才能做得比较公正吗?

Xu: Isn’t it fair if the main entity is the computer?

王海波:计算机是个技术平台,但它围绕的,它忠实执行的是国家的器官分配的科学政策,任何一个国家都是这样子的,所以我们是有机会能够看到十几个国家,研究了十几个国家,它们的器官分配政策,然后从它的政策当中,我们先做了国际的器官政策的荟萃分析,然后再从这个荟萃分析当中,产生了我们国家器官移植分配科学政策的草案。我记得当时黄部长一个字一个字去改,所以这是一个非常艰辛的过程。然后这个过程,这个草案经过我们专家反复的论证,最终是由我们国家卫计委发布,这个在我们网上都可以公开看到,在国家卫计委的网站上可以看到。然后围绕这个政策,构建计算机系统,所以这个是我们在2011年4月份的时候,开始了试运行,直到2013年的9月1号,国家卫计委发布了这个人体器官获取分配的管理办法,然后这个系统才变成一个全国的系统。

Wang Haibo: The computer is a technical platform. It is designed according to the policies of our country. Any country is the same. We looked at the organ distribution policies of a dozen countries. We summarized them and came up with our own draft. I remember Huang Jiefu went through it word by word. It was a difficult process. Then this draft was issued by NHFPC. It can be found on its website. Then the computerized system was made. A trial was started in April 2011. Until Sept. 1, 2013, it became a mandate system used nationwide.

黄洁夫:强制性的执行。

Huang: a mandated implementation.

王海波:强制性的执行。

Wang Haibo: a mandated implementation.

黄洁夫:强制性的执行,这里边呀,都必须进入到这个体系,这就是我们为什么要取消死刑器官来源的重要的依据。

Huang: a mandated implementation. All must be entered into this system. This is the reason why we abolish the executed prisoner organs.


====================================================

Date: 2015/10/19

Publication: Beijing Youth Daily 北京青年报

Link: http://epaper.ynet.com/html/2015-10/19/content_159772.htm 

Archive:

Title: 全面停用死囚捐献器官 我国公民自愿捐献今年达历史最高  黄洁夫:器官来源转型 移植数不降反升 | Complete stop of using executed prisoners' organs, Chinese citizen voluntary donation reached historical high this year  Huang Jiefu: Shift in organ sources, number of transplants did not drop but increased

Full version of item:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/11HPCdxSomv8WFE-pwc4lOU2MNO9FJ3Zol5KllRFQdAc/edit?usp=sharing

Key Content:

黄洁夫:比如现在公民器官捐献中,有很多心脏、肺都是浪费掉的,因为没那么多医生会做此类手术。另外,器官获取、运输的体系尚未完善。据统计,全国能做心脏移植手术的主刀医生仅20多名,全国一年才做100多例心脏移植手术,不到200例肺移植。

Huang Jiefu: Now in the citizen donations, many hearts and lungs are wasted because there aren't many doctors who can perform the transplant. In addition, the system of organ procurement and transportation is not yet mature. There are only 20 doctors in the country who can do heart transplant. Only 100 heart transplants and 200 lung transplants were done in one year in the entire country.

====================================================

Date: 2015/11/23

Publication: Beijing Youth Daily 北京青年报

Link: http://epaper.ynet.com/html/2015-11/23/content_167300.htm?div=-1  

Archive:  

Title: Huang Jiefu: Whether Death Row Inmates Can Donate Organs is a Pseudo-proposition | 国家器官捐献与移植委员会主任委员黄洁夫今日将获颁顾氏和平奖 黄洁夫:死囚可否捐器官是伪命题

Full version of item:

https://docs.google.com/document/d/1n9TkzTMrHRJFCF_QwzSAEwo4QKkYfjEipPl9IL_dKpc/edit?usp=sharing

Key Content:

In addition to the number of transplants done, this article also talked about Huang's encounter with Didi Kirsten in the Philippines after her NYT article was published questioning the organ sources. The NYT articles referenced are listed below:


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/17/world/asia/china-bends-vow-using-prisoners-org
ans-for-transplants.html?_r=0

China Bends Vow, Using Prisoners’ Organs for Transplants
Nov. 16, 2015

http://sinosphere.blogs.nytimes.com/2015/11/18/fresh-doubt-over-chinas-pledge-to-amend-transplant-policy/?_r=1
Fresh Doubt Over China’s Pledge to Amend Transplant Policy
By Didi Kirsten Tatlow  
November 18, 2015


http://www.nytimes.com/2015/11/26/world/asia/china-organ-transplants-prisoner-do
nations-huang-jiefu.html

Transplant Chief in China Denies Breaking Vow to Ban Prisoners’ Organs
Nov. 25, 2015