Press Interview, Melbourne, Australia. 8 March 1983.
Shri Mataji: Now, I think, we should have questions first....
Question: What is Self Realization and how do you grant it?
Shri Mataji: Self Realization is the epitome of our evolutionary process which is a living process through which you achieve your higher Self.
Even Darwin, who was an atheist, did say that as human beings have come so far they will achieve their absolute. So, to achieve your absolute means to get Self Realization. The purpose of our life, the meaning of our life, is only achieved when we get connected with the Divine Power, which is all pervading. Now, one need not believe in the Divine Power, but you can see the manifestation of this living Divine Power when you see a flower becoming a fruit. All living work is done by this Divine Power. But we are not aware. At this human stage, we are not aware of it.
But once this happening takes place, in your awareness, that is not just suggesting that you become something great on mental level but actualization of this experience is felt in your awareness, on your central nervous system. You can feel that you have become, again I say you have become, not told or brain washed, but you have become collectively conscious. Is a state where you can feel your Self inside and others, too.
Now the knowledge of this is the knowledge of the roots. Whatever we have achieved is the knowledge of the tree. But if the tree outgrows itself from its root, then it may die. So it is time that we should find out about the roots and to know about that we have to become a subtler being. At this human awareness you cannot. But sometimes it challenges the ego of people. You think, "Why not? I am such and such. What shouldn't I know?" But you cannot. As you have to have a microscope to see things deeply, in the same way you have to have this new awareness within, this dynamic awareness. Of course, the nature of Self is that it is collectively conscious, that it is the source of peace and bliss, that it is the Truth and Love. That's the nature of it. And you become that. You become. It is not only mental, but you really become. Because whatever is mental is artificial, man-made.
Question: And do you perceive this collective unconscious or this collective consciousness mentally?
Shri Mataji: Yes. The unconscious becomes conscious, means it comes into your central nervous system. It is within you. Everyone has said it. Christ has said it, Mohammad has said it, Buddha has said it, Mahavira has said it. Everyone has said the same thing. Like Lao Tse, you can say Zen system, everything has said that you are to be born again. There has to be some transformation. They didn't tell us lies. But the trouble is people can use these for their own purpose and mislead others. That's a different point. But logically, the disciples or the seekers also must know that you must feel your own powers, you must feel your Self. Otherwise, what's the use of just following somebody where you achieve nothing of your own? What did you achieve is the main point, you should see.
Question: And how do you grant this Self Realization en masse?
Shri Mataji: Yes. That's the only thing is new today, is that it can be done on mass level. That's why in India it is called as Maha Yoga. Formerly it was done for one or two persons but now on very mass level you can do it. We had once, they were there six thousand people in a village called [inaudible]. All of them got Realization. In India is very easy because they are not so complicated. But Indians take it for granted. They know what Sahaja Yoga is. They know what Realization is. I mean, they are trained that way, or I should say they are conditioned that way, that they understand it faster. But when the Western people get it they are sometimes difficult, but once they get it they are very deep and they think this is the solution, the only solution for all the calamities. So they work it out very seriously and really, they are doing very good work.
Question: It is harder to grant Self Realization to Westerners?
Shri Mataji: I used to think so but the other day, in Adelaide, I was amazed that they got it without any difficulty, so many of them. There must be about three hundred people in that hall. It was all packed and they all got it. So all My ideas about that also are now changing, that suddenly I'm meeting the right type of people, I think.
Question: But how is it you actually rise this mass level of consciousness? How do you do it, Mother?
Shri Mataji: How do I do it? As I said, is spontaneous. A seed, which you put it into Mother Earth, it sprouts by itself. You cannot say how you do it. But, because you are just ready for it. It's like one enlightened light can enlighten another light. Even if you put your hands towards Me like this, you can get it. So simple. And then you can give it to others. Once you get it, you can give it to others.
Question: With due respect, we get a lot of Eastern visitors to Australia now with different brands or different types of religion. Who do we know is leading us and who do we know is misleading us?
Shri Mataji: You see, you must use your brains for everything. God has given you a very good brain and logic, and logically, you must get proper conclusion about your Realization.
First of all, you must truly find out whether you want your Realization or not. Because if some people want to fly in the air, then I can't give them. Some people want to have diamonds. That I can't do. Some sort of funny miracles that they do, all these tricks.
So you have to be honest, first of all, about it. Secondly, you must know that this is Love of God and you cannot sell it in the market. You cannot purchase it, either. That's one of the very important things one should know. Because they pamper your ego in a way that you are purchasing your guru, that he is in your pocket. That's what one feels. But you cannot pocket the guru. Guru has to be higher.
Then you have to find out the life style of such a guru, how is he, how he lives. Is he a honest man? Is he a righteous person? Or is he... You must find out the credibility of such a person. Apart from that, you must find out the credibility of the followers also. What are they doing? There are so many gurus who have got followers for eighteen years, sixteen years and they are epileptic. If the guru can't even look after their health, then what's the use having such a guru for yourself? But human beings are very competitive in certain things.
Question: Sorry, they really....
Shri Mataji: They are very competitive. Amuses Me. Like, they see a person coming out of the pub, falling in the gutters. And they enter into the same pub. Sort of thing, you see. It's sort of a competition that they get into. And they think, "Why this man has gone to this guru? So, I'll do it". It's a fashion. People talk, "Who is your guru?" And the other says, "This is my guru". It's really, I can't understand how people can do that.
Question: You see, it's sprung up like that.
Shri Mataji: Yes. What I'm saying is this a special time, a time of your Resurrection, the time of your judgment. So there is an [UNCLEAR], there is an [UNCLEAR]. But people are so vulnerable and so naive, I would say very naive not to understand who is right and who is wrong. It's very simple. People come out of the jail, wear a funny dress and go to America, sit in a square and start singing something funnily. Everybody will say, "O, look at him, what very great". Moreover, a kind of a inferiority complex, I think, people have who are householders. They think they are very selfish; they are raising their children and looking after their household. It is not. It is one of the greatest jobs, is to be properly married and to have nice children. But if you see somebody wearing that dress, see he has given up everything in the world, you see, you feel so enamored. If superficially you cannot judge it.
Question: I asked, do you believe yourself to be the only true Guru or do other organizations offer enlightenment as well?
Sahaja Yogi: You believe that you're the only true Guru and are there other organizations who offer enlightenment?
Shri Mataji: There are many true gurus also [UNCLEAR]. It's not so that I'm the only true guru, but I'm the only Mother. Because these true gurus who are maybe in Himalayas and other places on the caves, don't want to come down. They don't want to mix with people. I sent one fellow with great coaxing and persuasion to America. He ran away within three days from there. He says, "They can't understand their methods. Other way round people. They can't understand God. They understand dollars". So there are many gurus. And they recognize Me quite all right. That's why when they say that, "She is the, what did you say, greatest Saint, or anything," is all said by these gurus only who have told them.
Question: What about [UNCLEAR : sounds like - risk]? Do you think they are gurus or not gurus but do you think they are a religious organization?
Shri Mataji: Yes, Yes. Some people have taken [UNCLEAR], you see. It's a good enterprise to make big money, you see. Now imagine one guru has made six thousand crores of rupees, now crore is hundred and then hundred and then ...
Sahaja Yogi: Six.
Shri Mataji: Thousand and then...
Sahaja Yogi: Multi billion ...
Shri Mataji: And then hundred thousand and then hundred of that is one crore. So six thousand crores of rupees he has made in India alone. God knows how much in the Swiss Bank. Another one has got fifty-nine Rolls Royce. Another one who has run away from India has purchased three aero planes and thirty-five Rolls Royces. They have a special liking for Rolls Royce, I think. See, so one must understand that it's a very big enterprise. Even [UNCLEAR] cannot afford it.
Journalist: So it's a good [UNCLEAR: sounds like - value] for the market place.
Another Sahaja Yogi: Yes.
Shri Mataji: Yes. They know, you see, they're very clever. Not only they have employed people to tell them about, you see, they have employment of also publicity department. They have every sort of department. I mean, it's a big enterprise.
Journalist: For being a guru.
Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon...
Journalist: For being a guru, it's a big enterprise.
Sahaja Yogi: Being a guru is a big enterprise.
Shri Mataji: Very big enterprise. If you can venture it, really... I mean some English people have tried it. They have been successful but not so much as leaders. I think Indians are clever to do that job.
Sahaja Yogi: You missed the point you were asked. She asked are there any enlightened gurus in the West?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Question: Are they genuine spiritual leaders?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. I think so. There are many. Yes, there are many. All over the world they are, not only in India.
Question: Do you consider some Western religious organizations to be genuine?
Shri Mataji: They are all genuine because they believe so, but they don't create genuine effects. That's the point is. You may believe something is genuine in ignorance. For example, you may believe that a particular diamond is a real diamond, because they are ignorant about jewelries. But when you want to sell it in the market you find out that's not so. That's what it's happening to our religions now. The thing is all religions have to seek within themselves and get their Self Realization, which they are not doing. They, too, are having buildings. They, too, are having organizations. They, too are having, what you call, big market places. All that is all coming to economics again, I think, or to politics, at the most, but not to God.
Question: How is that there are gurus meanwhile that won't come into the West? Why did you come to the West?
Shri Mataji: Me?
Sahaja Yogi: The ones that, there are many that won't come to the West. Why have you come to the West?
Shri Mataji: You see, because I'm the only venturesome person, I think.
Journalist : Sorry, what was that?
Shri Mataji : I said I'm the only venturesome person. But apart from that, I must tell you, it was so arranged that My husband got elected to this job in England, elected by 134 nations, four times unanimous.
Question: What do you think, how long have you lived in the West now?
Shri Mataji: No, I don't live here much. You see, I go to India also. I've been traveling quite a lot. I've been to India, I've been to all the places and I have to go about with My husband also. I've been to Russia, I've been to China, all over the places, Argentina, every place.
Question: Apart from the material circumstances of life, what do you think is so different between the West and the East? Just forgetting the material circumstances, what do you think is different about...
Shri Mataji: Western people?
Question: And the Eastern people.
Sahaja Yogi: Other than material aspects...
Shri Mataji: Now, they are very honest, very honest.
Shri Mataji: Very honest. They are very honest. Really, they are honest. No doubt about it. And about themselves also they are very honest. And tremendously [UNCLEAR]. You see, the Indian real gurus, as you may call them, are even frightened of Indians, leave alone the Westerners. They think they'll be crucified or their throats will be cut. They ... see, they have been tortured also, I must say. One fellow, General Forbe, his legs were broken and hands were broken because, you see, there is a big struggle between the reality and unreal things. Because these people are having a business proposition. You understand that. Is a very big business organization. So if anybody says anything against it, then they can pay people to get after you. They can kill you. They can do anything they want. It's a mafia. It's not easy to face these horrible people. They are all multimillionaire.
Question: Can you some thing similar experiences [UNCLEAR] which they tried to charge You or...?
Shri Mataji: They tried, but doesn't succeed. Yesterday only we had a meeting and there were two boys from this TM, I think paid by TM, whatever it is. They tried to be very funny and I said.... the whole public got after them; they run away. They said, "Now you can't have it [UNCLEAR] in the [UNCLEAR : sounds like - major] policy, you have got now. So you can't have, so let us have it, at least." They tried. It's all right. I mean, I expect also.
Question: Just tell us something of your yoga school, it devolved from .... .
Sahaja Yogi: It's not a Yoga school. You get your Realization and you then become a person who becomes a Realized person. You just...
Question: But it started from... through the influence of...
Sahaja Yogi: Yes, not influence. I got my realization when I went to India. I've been looking. I've been to all these false gurus, all these places where I saw some shocking things happening and I was absolutely shocked and disillusioned. I was about to come home, but somebody had given me Mataji's telephone number. She was in India at that time from England and I went to Her and I thought, "My goodness, this is all so very different." I started to feel incredibly peaceful and joyful and amazing things were happening inside me, which were very wonderful and it all seemed so normal. And yet so...
Shri Mataji: Health wise. First of all he improved health wise.
Question: What was your trade?
Sahaja Yogi: I'm a doctor. I mean I was very skeptical.
Question: General practitioner?
Sahaja Yogi: No, I've trained as such, but I've been practicing in natural health because I am a bit disillusioned with the medical side and many of my patients have been going to India on these spiritual pilgrimages and coming back worse. And I wondered why because I was reading all these books that were saying these great gurus, and they were speaking about Christ, and Mohammed and Krishna and all these things. And they were coming back in a worsened condition. So I thought the two things were a disparity. On one the hand, they seemed to be those spiritual masters. On the other hand, these people were coming back. But they had a very good rationalization. They'd say they were purifying themselves or they were cleansing themselves, or they were going through some karmas or something like that. So I couldn't sort it all out. So I went to India. I stayed there a few months. And finally I met Mother and it seemed so logical, so sensible and so scientific. I mean, the degrees with all the medical science. It underpins medical science.
Shri Mataji: I've also studied medicine.
Sahaja Yogi: It was quite incredible. And now it just seems so easy...
Question: Do you do some yoga practice that as part of your daily routine?
Sahaja Yogi: Meditation in a very simplified form. When you feel these cool vibrations on your hand and above your head and over your body, you know that you are in meditation. That's it.
Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR]
Question: You do some surya asana?
Sahaja Yogi: Not many. Just a few only if you got a specific problem.
Shri Mataji: You see, it depends on. It is very scientific. It depends on where you have a problem. Say, for example, you have a problem in your stomach. Now you have to do certain exercise four times for short time, till you get rid of it. Or maybe that you have to say certain mantras for that to excite or to awaken that part within you into liveliness. That's how it is very scientific. But gradually you know it, so easy it becomes. The whole thing becomes so easy because when you are expanding towards the periphery, the whole thing becomes complex. But when you integrate towards the center, then everything is very simple. You have to deal with simple principles. And once you know how to manage that... for example, balance. Balance in a person is very ...balance in a person is not very critical in, say, in medical science. While we have one medical science, then we have psychologists. You have this and that. You have one doctor for one eye and another doctor for another eye. Here it's one person who is the one who cures you. He diagnoses you, he gives you Realization, is everything. The laboratory is the complete instrument with human beings and this is created by God within you. Beautifully, it's all there just to be connected to the mains. That's all. It's already there. I mean, nothing fantastic for Me, because I knew it is there. But once you get it you are amazed how you have started working it out. Because we are not aware of ourselves. Every one of you can get it. Everyone.
Question: How did you develop the Self Realization? Were you born with it, or...?
Shri Mataji: I was born with it.
Question: So, from the day you were born you knew it?
Shri Mataji: Yes.
Question: When did you know that you had been born with it? When did you discover it?
Shri Mataji: You see, it is like if I ask you a question when you did discover you are a human being. You won't be able to say it. It's simple as that, you see. I was quite aware of it.
Question: When you say Self, meaning I know I am a human being. What you mean by Self Realization?
Shri Mataji: Everyone can get it. As long as you are a human being, you get it; that's all.
Sahaja Yogi: It's a higher level of awareness than human awareness. You are not using your thinking brain. You are not using your emotional brain. You're using what is basically the All-pervading Power of God, the unconscious about which you...
Shri Mataji: That is reflected within you.
Sahaja Yogi: You've spoken about it.
Shri Mataji: See, it is reflected within you as Kundalini, we call it. In Sanskrit language it is called as Kundalini. But this also word is so terrifying to people. Those who have read about Kundalini, they get a fright. She is your Mother, the one who has to give you the rebirth. Now there are people who have written so many such big books without knowing where the Kundalini lies. Imagine! Absolutely waste. Now you can see it in some people pulsations of the Kundalini. You have also got it on videotapes some of these things when you saw on some people, where there were obstructions, the pulsations [UNCLEAR]. The pulsations, you can see, sometimes this triangular bone, sacrum, just pulsating.
But imagine this thing was called as sacrum, means sacred. And I asked the Greek people. I said, "What did you call it sacrum?" They said, "We had a report, with the Indo-Aryan group, much before Alexander went to India, and they told us that this bone is the sacred bone".
Sahaja Yogi: If you burn the bone, the bone is so ossified that it's the last one to burn.
Shri Mataji: Yes, the way [UNCLEAR].
Question: You worked with Gandhi, didn't you? What are your impressions with Gandhi?
Shri Mataji: What are My impressions?
Shri Mataji: Oh, He was a very great man, very much needed at that time and if he had survived, he would have supported Sahaja Yoga out and out, no doubt about it. If he had survived, he would have supported Sahaja Yoga out and out.
Question: How much contact did you have with Gandhi?
Shri Mataji: It's quite a lot. As a child I was very close to him and he used to call Me Nepali, because according to My features were more Nepali, My complexion was Nepali. He used to call Me Nepali. And very affectionate towards children, very affectionate. Otherwise he was a hard task master himself, towards himself and towards others. But a very kind gentleman as far as the children were concerned. And you could even overrule him by sweetness. I mean, supposing he says, "I don't want to have any juice just now", you can say: "Bapu, have a little bit; otherwise, we won't have," or something. He would just melt away. So sweet inside.
Question: Have you seen the film version of this?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I've seen.
Question: What did you think of it?
Shri Mataji: The film is very good. I mean, it is very good.
Question : Is it accurate?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. It is very accurate, but in some ways, you see, I would say that, for example, Gandhiji, you see, was an Indian. And the Indian style of talking is rather different from what you people talk, because you are very intelligent people and sharp witted. You see, you know words, you are very well read, so you say a few things in a very sharp way. Immediately you answer in a way that is very, I should say, acute, absolutely. But he was an Indian so the Indian, you see, doesn't say such a sudden, it doesn't spring with such a sudden intelligent remarks, you see. They are gentler people I think. They speak in a gentler way, in a little round about way.
Sahaja Yogi: He couldn't sit on the floor.
Shri Mataji: That also you could find out that he couldn't sit properly on the floor. That's why... But that's not so important. What I felt was that....
A person: It is in the film. I'm not [UNCLEAR]. It's in the film.
Shri Mataji: That's one thing about him, and the essence of it is, you see, is that whatever was, it was such a short time to bring forth such a deep thing. I think he has done full justice except for one point that Gandhiji never wanted to provoke. He never used these sinister methods of provoking others. He was a very genuine person, you see. And I think that is little bit lacking. He didn't do it to just to, you see, with a mind that should provoke others. No, he wouldn't think of such a thing. It was just a thought that if he has no other way out, because you don't know what times we had. I mean, in this picture he couldn't show anything. It was very oppressive time for three hundred years. Can you believe? So to talk of anything was impossible.
My father himself went to jail many a times. My mother went five times to jail. Of course, later on he was Member of the Constituent Assembly Parliament, everything. My brother is also a Minister of Steel now in India, in the Cabinet. But that time it was so difficult, very difficult. They used to torture people much more than it's shown there, individually. They used to hound us.
Question: Do you know Mrs. Gandhi? (-- reference to Mrs. Indira Gandhi, the then Prime Minister of India in 1983 - ed.)
Shri Mataji: Well, I like her.
Question: Do you ... have met her personally?
Shri Mataji: Yes, I have met her once or twice. But I wonder if she remembers Me now. You see, she's a very busy person. I mean, she is the solution just now for us. You can say it.
Question: What do you think are the immediate problems facing India at the moment?
Shri Mataji: If they take to Sahaja Yoga, they can be also [inaudible] because it also gives you material peace. It also gives you material blessings. You see, we have too much black magic and all that in our country. It's very heavy. And once you get into those things, you get to poverty.
Question: Just on that point, Mother, a couple of years ago an individual was talking about Self Realization and was inclined towards so-called group miracle cures and so on. I notice in the press release there's quite a heavy accent on cures. Have you done that specifically to perhaps reinforce your message or get your message across?
Shri Mataji: Which one?
Sahaja Yogi: He is saying that there seems to be an emphasis in the press release on curing.
Shri Mataji: No, no, I did not. Did you feel that way? Oh, God, I'm not doing that. Really.
Sahaja Yogi: Has your emphasis changed is his question?
Question: What I am saying is the [UNCLEAR: sounds like - vibe OR line] I get is that two years ago that you won't emphasize .....
Shri Mataji : No, no, never, never.
Question: ..... but the press release that support your trip here indicates the more ... other side of it which, of course, has opened a little more skepticism.
Shri Mataji: It is a by-product. Curing is a by-product of Self Realization. You see, Self Realization is most important. You see, body is not interested in curing every Dick, Tom and Harry. Say, for example, Hitler wants to get cured. Should we cure him? It's better cure for him is to go to hell, at least for one life time and then come back, see what people have suffered. So it's never accented never on curing at all, and I, out of compassion, you see, because it works. I work out [UNCLEAR] important. I don't know why you felt that way. I don't know what they have given you. I have no idea as to what they have given you and what is accentuated but as far as I am concerned, for Me Self Realization is the main thing. That's My job.
Sahaja Yogi: In fact, Mother takes interests away from curing at the public programs.
Shri Mataji: I tell them not to cure anyone. I said if they want to cure, let them work on My photograph. Let the photograph take all the bhoots. You don't take any load of curing.
A person: Perhaps you'd have rather talk over the situation with your public relations people.
Sahaj Yogi : We don't have any.
Shri Mataji: We don't have any publicity, nothing. They do it on their own, spontaneously. They will realize if they are making mistake and put it right next time. I don't know what's happening and all that. I don't know anything. They're doing on their own. Let them learn. They gradually learn. You see, better ways of curing and all that. Let them learn. They'll all learn.
Question: Can we just clarify that do you claim that you can heal or cure?
Shri Mataji: I do not claim; I do it. No question of claiming, you see. I do it. I've done it. You can do it also. Everyone can do it. This Doctor Warren has done. He's cured so many people.
Question: And you said it can be done through the photograph. Would you explain that?
Shri Mataji: Yes, it is surprising, you know. Myself I was surprised, as you are, that My photograph has also got vibrations and people get cured with photographs. In your country only when I came, the press was very kind to Me. The reason was there was a lady who was sick for four months. And they said she has got ...
Sahaja Yogi: Cerebral aneurism.
Shri Mataji: And one another disciple of Mine took My photograph and put it under her head. And she started getting all right in the sense that she started opening her eyes. So the doctors got frightened. They said, "Even if she gets all right, she will be damaged. She won't be able to walk." But today she's perfectly all right. Not only that, but she is very hard-working Sahaja Yogini also.
Question: How does it work?
Shri Mataji: It was in .....
Sahaja Yogi: How does it work? How does it work from the photograph?
Shri Mataji: From the photograph? The photograph is a real image of Myself, you see, and this, My body, has got a coefficients which emits vibrations. Same happens with the photograph. That too has the same coefficients. Of course, it hasn't got the other dimension, but it also emits the vibrations because of the coefficients being the same. Say, even if you take Christ's photograph, it's not real because it has come out of the unconscious, all right, but that's a lot of imagination put in. Any photograph, if you take of any person it is like that. But there are so many things I've seen which have come out of the Mother Earth, they emit vibrations. Like Stonehenge in England has vibrations. So many places like that have vibrations, but not so strong as Mine, because I'm a living person.
Question: What is your idea of God?
Shri Mataji: My idea... It's not only idea but it's the truth I can feel about God. God is difficult to put it in words [INAUDIBLE], is the witness of the play of His Power. He is separated from His Power and He's just witnessing the play of His Power. And the Power is creating, is protecting, nourishing the creation, and evolving it. Till this play is up to the animal stage, everything is under the control. But to give it a greater freedom they have to give first freedom to human beings at the same time. So this freedom was granted so that you learn what is your mistake, what is your right thing. You decide it. You develop yourself with that. You create a balance within yourself. And then you ascent to the Spirit, by which you know God's power flowing through. This is all the game. It's in short I'm telling you. So this God is the witness of this play. He's the Father, you can say, and His power is the Holy Ghost. And He sends His Son on this Earth to redeem the people, to play a very important part, Christ, in our lives. And all other Incarnations, all of them have a meaning and a place within ourselves. Christ also has a special place within which is the gate of the limbic area.
Question: So you are a Christian, as well as being an Indian?
Shri Mataji: I'm not a Christian. In the sense that I do belong to the Church. Neither I'm a real Hindu, Christian, everything, because they are all based on the same principle of God. See, these are all flowers who were on the same tree of life. But people plucked it, saying, "This is mine. I am that. I am that." And then the flowers became unreal and dead. That's why people think Christianity is failing, Hinduism has failed you, Islam has failed you. It's not the progress. It's not the Incarnation. It's we by possessing the.... We cannot possess God. We cannot possess religion. We are in religion, means religion is our valency. Just like carbon has valency of four, we have a valency of ten. That's in this part of our being where the attention is. And if we are balanced people, if we live in moderation, the ascending is faster. But even the extremists of extremists have got Realization because grace is flowing very generously, I should say, to achieve it. Even alcoholics, you see, come to Me in an alcoholic state, become overnight wonderful people.
A person: Overnight?
Shri Mataji: Overnight. You'll be surprised, overnight. There are druggists and chemists and smokers.
Question: Chemical [UNCLEAR]? Chemical nicotine?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes.
Question: Do you consider yourself to be a saint or a prophet?
Shri Mataji: What is the relevance of this question? I just don't understand. Everyone of them are asking, "Do you consider...?" If I was not considering Myself I would have worked like this. Do I think I am a thief? Or what I think Myself? You see, it's a funny question, isn't it? You just tell Me. I don't understand the relevance. Because everyone of them are asking this question to Me, "Do you think... ?" Is this, what is this? I must be thinking something about it. I must be aware of Myself; otherwise, I won't take up this [UNCLEAR]. See now, I have a husband who loves Me very much. I have a very comfortable house of My own. I have My own children and grandchildren. And I don't get anything out of this except that I have a satisfaction that I'm sharing My joy with all of you. All right? Now, unless and until I'm aware of Myself do you think I will do such a thing? Anyone of you will do this thing without getting anything out of it? Can anyone in this world can do such a thing, tell me, without any purpose?
Question: Well, I think somebody just called you the greatest living saint and...
Shri Mataji: Yes. I mean they can call Me anything, you see. But what I'm saying that, you see, asking these questions... Supposing I say, "Yes, I think so", then you'd say, "She is very ego-oriented". All right. If I say, "I don't think so", then they'll say, "She's diffident". You see, it's a very funny thing, you know. So it's like a... is the question that is irrelevant. Unless and until I am aware of it, why will I do this work?
Question: I suppose, in the West we think of science with high halos around the head.
Shri Mataji: Yes, you can see that also if you become Realized Soul. You do. You'll see that. Many see that. I will show you one photograph. Have you got that? You just see this photograph. Can you explain?
A person: Sorry?
Shri Mataji: This photograph... I'm sitting in a village, outside. And these, seven times, this light fell on Me. Have you seen Christ pray in that garden?
A person: Yes.
Shri Mataji: And this is the photograph. You see. There are many other things people have seen in My photographs. There's one photograph where they have seen lights coming out of My fingers, My toes. They've got these photographs. So for you...
Question: Can't this be a reflection from the glasses?
Shri Mataji: No. This happened seven times. And when I put down My head, none of them could see at that time. There is no reflection. Ask a photographer if he can explain. All artificial gurus would try this trick, you see.
Question: I'm understanding you began teaching Self Realization [UNCLEAR] in 1970? Is that right or ....
Shri Mataji: No, not Self Realization. I give human realization. I understood human beings at that time. They are very complicated, I must say. So many permutations and combinations and I had to study them thoroughly. Because My father himself was a Realized Soul and he told Me that no use talking about God, saying anything about Him. It will become another Bible, another Gita. "You have to find out a mass Realization method. It has to work on masses." And also you have seen any discovery which is not used for masses, is wasted. And he said, "Otherwise, same thing will happen. You will be crucified or they will kill you. You'll be finished". And I knew that I've come for this work, to achieve that. So I had to study, work it out the method by which en masse evolution could be achieved. And when I did it, I would say it was My human realization in the sense that I found an opportune time to start.
Question: Will you continue to do this travel around the world until you die, or... ?
Shri Mataji: What is it?
Sahaja Yogi: Will you continue to travel round the world doing this work until you die?
Shri Mataji: It's very futuristic. I don't think of My death so far. As long as I can do, I'll do but if these people are Realized, then I think they'll give Me some rest sometime, you see. I must also have some rest. Now I am sixty years of age. How long do you want Me to live? It's for you to decide. If you take over then I will not live.
Question: You spend more, most of your time in London now, I believe.
Shri Mataji: Yes, because My husband is there, My family, and he is a very busy man himself.
Question: But where do you come from originally in India?
Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon.
Question: Where did you live originally in India?
Shri Mataji: Originally near Ahmednagar [-- in Maharashtra - ed.] is where our dynasty.
Question: Are there no other big cities near... is that near a big city?
Shri Mataji: It's a, it's a district place. It is not a very big city, Ahmednagar. It's very near...
Question: What is the biggest city it's near?
Shri Mataji: I lived with My husband in Delhi because he was with the former prime minister, Lal Bahadur Shastri. He was his Secretary.
Shri Mataji: Yes. And then I lived, he went to Tashkent also with him. He was throughout with him. And then I lived in Bombay because he was Chairman of the Shipping Corporation of India. For years together I lived in cities. I studied in Lucknow, in Lahore, in Medical College. That's how I lived in cities. But originally My family, all of them, come from this place, Ahmednagar. I was born in a small little hill station, which is on the tropic of Cancer.
Question: Mother, is reincarnation is part of your kind of philosophy?
Sahaja Yogi: Is reincarnation part of your philosophy? Reincarnation.
Shri Mataji: Of whom?
Question: Of everybody. When we physically pass away...
Shri Mataji: Yes. You mean human being?
Shri Mataji: Of course. Of course. Of course.
Question: Perhaps you could put into another situation. For the mysteries of life there are many people who appear beyond sincere and work hard, who suffer enormous tragedies or if they are people [UNCLEAR] - I can name a couple of them - who seem point through that not necessarily [UNCLEAR] follow human beings. There are reasons for attached spirits or something else.
Shri Mataji: Going to false gurus is very dangerous. It's extremely dangerous. It is not superficially dangerous. You see, money I don't mind because if they are thugs, all right. There are so many thugs. We have mafia. We have all kind of things. It doesn't matter. Let them be thugs. It's not so simple as we think. It's very deep. You see, they can bring forth all the diseases which are incurable diseases. Say poliomyelitis, cancer, heart attacks, all kinds of diseases which are absolutely incurable, beyond our condition. Then depressions and then stresses within us. Also they can bring quite a lot of them, epilepsy they give, abnormal behavior. Even in the plain if I am sitting, I find some people are doing like this, like that. And most of them have been to this TM. They have paid thousands and thousands of pounds to achieve that kind of a funny thing, funny this center by which their necks came out like that, they are all the time twitching themselves or jumping.
Sahaja Yogi: He asked about spiritual possessions too, Mother. They asked about spiritual possessions.
Shri Mataji: Of course, this is spiritual possession. It is spiritual possession. They did not...
Question: And do you have a method of driving away that spirits?
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes, I do. I do try. You see, even...
Question: So that's the key to solving many of these diseases.
Shri Mataji: Yes, yes. Of course, of course. Because, you see, the cabbages are better sometimes than this. Poor things, you know they are so suppressed, that even if you show then a garlic, they are frightened and they are troubled. Garlic, can you imagine? They are afraid of garlic and afraid of onions. I mean, what are they made? Some are just sex points, without any sex acts. Horrible pieces. They are neither human beings, nor animals. Terribly possessed, no doubt. They can be cured, absolutely. We have cured so many like that. You can make so many... You won't believe that they have been like that. There's one gentleman here, that you can see it...
Sahaja Yogi: He was a flyer in TM.
Question: What's a flyer?
Shri Mataji: You see...
Sahaja Yogi: A leviter.
Shri Mataji: Because they levitate, so-called. Sitting on a floor you have to jump, you see. And then you think that you are flying. And then you get possessed. And they just start, sitting down. They just come out of their seats, you see, as if somebody just ejected them out. This is supposed to be flying.
Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon...
Question: You ruin hysteria.
Shri Mataji: Oh, horrible things. In one of our ashrams, one fellow came because he went to a barber shop and he was having a... so he had to spend some time waiting outside, you see. He saw one magazine there. It was written about Sahaja Yoga, in a magazine for yoga. They are not supposed to read anything else. They are bad. Everything is secret. It's all Mafia style. So poor man, you see, hesitatingly took that thing and took that yoga thing to read. And there was My picture which said that, "If you feel cool breeze on at this picture, then know that you are a Realized Soul". He tried to put the hands and in the barber shop only went and took [UNCLEAR]. He got such a fright that he telephoned to our ashram and the gentleman who was on the phone was also not a TM but another type and he asked him, "Are you feeling hot?" He said, "I am boiling this side". He said, "Have you done TM?" He said, "Yes. But how do you know?" He said, "We know." Then he came down. But when he came down there and these people just took My name and the fellow went into such a contortion and started barking like a dog that all the Sahaja Yogis got a fright and they sent Me a SOS that, "Mother, please, come to our help!" and I was going to have lots of people for dinner and I said, "What's happening?" He said, "There is a fellow who came here and he is behaving like this and we are all frightened of him." Then I told them what is to be done to pacify him. But this fellow today is a very big Sahaja Yogi in London. He was a manager of a very big estate company. He lost his job, lost his money. He became penniless doing this TM.
But now I'm told this Rajneesh is coming to your Australia to bless you all. This fellow Rajneesh who is ousted from America...
Sahaja Yogi: The orange people, they are called.
Shri Mataji: The orange people. He is trying to come here, so be careful.
Sahaja Yogi: The government is already writing about this regulations...
Shri Mataji: He has bought only thirty-six Rolls-Royces and three airplanes, I don't know what his ambitions are out of the Australians.
Sahaja Yogi: He has been thrown out of India, now...
Shri Mataji: Not thrown out, he ran away...
Sahaja Yogi: He ran away, sorry. He had the deportation order in America now. And here he is coming too.
Question: What's his name?
Sahaja Yogi: Rajneesh.
Shri Mataji: These orange people, you see.
Question: What is bad about Rajneesh?
Shri Mataji: Horrible.
Question: But what?
Shri Mataji: You see, what he does, he makes you into a sex point. He has mass sex, mass sex, you see. More...
A person: Some people think that's all right.
Shri Mataji: Yes, those who like it go there and become mad, that's all. That's all. You pay for it. We have a film. I think we have a film. We can show you. See, somebody has taken secretly the film of his work.
Sahaja Yogi: One of them, who is disenchanted.
Shri Mataji: One of them. He took a secret film of what they do inside. And that was released in London, called as, "God Who Ran Away". And with that they showed this mass thing and all that. So what he does he makes people absolutely impotent. They become impotent and [UNCLEAR] because he possesses them at the sex points and talks about sex all the time, so that they are so restless that they become mad. And they give him money as much as he wants, you see. He has told so many women that he was their husband in previous lives so they gave all their ornaments to him.
An Indian lady gave all her jewelry to him, very expensive jewelry. So his brother and her - She was a widow - Her brother and her brother-in-law came to Me with her that, "Please, Mother, cure her". I asked her, "Why did you give?" She said, "He was my husband in previous life". I said, "Who told you?" She said, "He told me". I said, "But why did you believe?" She said, "I also feel the same". I said, "But what the husband whom you married, from whom you have children, who has given you all these jewelries? And why should you give it to this man whom you never married?" "No, I believe! What is wrong?" She was absolutely in complete possession of him. And no one knows where she is now. No one knows.
Question: There are some other cults in Australia and parts of [UNCLEAR], including the Moonies and Hare Krishnas. What are your opinions on them?
Shri Mataji: Now Moonies, of course, you know all very well. I need not tell about them.
Question: You don't approve the Moonies?
Shri Mataji: Of course not. You see, when you become a Sahaja Yogi you start loving your parents, loving your children, loving everyone. You solve your problems. You don't hate anyone. You don't run away from anyone. On the contrary, if this thing happens, this is anti-God activity, absolutely anti-God activity that you get out of your families completely; you have nothing to do with anyone. This is absolute anti-God.
The another sect is our great, you call them, Hare Ramas. And the first basic mistake they make is to say that vegetarianism is to please to God, taking Krishna's name specially. Because Shri Krishna, in Gita, the first chapter is very outset, He told Arjuna that, "You have to kill humans, leave alone animals." Then he says, "How can I kill, because they are my gurus and they are my relations?" So He said, "You have to kill them! To achieve a higher goal, you have to give up your lower goals." This is what exactly He told. Then later on it was written in the Gita that vegetarianism leads you to God. I don't know how. Because they said that the people who are left-sided, emotional people, eat more meat, which is scientifically not true. Those who are morbid people, those who are left-sided, means who have got what you can say conditioned people, they seldom eat meat. The people who eat meat are the rajasic people, are the people who are more aggressive, more active. So the inactive people eat less meat because protein acts as an activity. So it's scientifically also proved. But they don't understand science or anything. These people are told that, "You must not eat meat". Finished. That's the end of it.
Now in India, out of poverty, so many people are not eating meat. By not eating meat, if you go to God, then everybody else was wrong because Krishna Himself used to eat and Rama Himself ate. Even Buddha ate it because He died because He....
A person: Buddha ate meat?
Shri Mataji: Beg your pardon...
A person: Eat..., ate meat?
Shri Mataji: Yes, He ate and He died because He ate a raw.., by mistake, a raw meat of a pig or a wild boar, a wild boar, of a wild boar. So He was eating... and in India only the so-called Brahmins don't eat. They're called Brahmins. Because they thought this is the best way of befooling people. But not that I am for eating meat or eating vegetables. It depends on your temperament, what sort of a temperament you have. Supposing you are very aggressive is better to eat vegetables.
A person: Carrots.
Shri Mataji: Yes. Grass. But if you are non-aggressive and you get conditioned very easily, suppressed type, then you better eat meat.
Sahaja Yogi: I'm afraid we're going to have to finish it there. Those who want to, can see Mother privately for an interview, if you want to. That can be arranged later. So can we wind it up or are there any ...
Shri Mataji: Only one point I'll say about them that, what these people are doing in India is something so shocking. I went to many places, in the district places and the people like you, the newspaper people, came and said, "Mother, why are you carrying these people in the villages here? We have had enough of them." I said, "Why? What happened?" They said, "We have so many beggars now let loose. These people are now walking in the villages, you see, and begging. And they are torturing everyone. Because our villages don't have so much money to look after them. At the beginning, of course, they tried." And they all bombard Me with questions that, "Why do you carry these people? They'll will also come here as beggars." "No, no", I said, "they are all employed people. They are not beggars. Don't be worried." They can't believe it. They said, "Now, they first came as aggressors and now they are coming as beggars and troubling us." And a person is begging at your house...
A person: The hippies!
Shri Mataji: Yes. Hippies and these, also these Hare Ramas. This is their special job and you said that, you see, they say they are saints. So they said, "We can't even eat our food properly because they are standing at your door step asking for alms, you see. Whatever we have we give them [UNCLEAR] from you?
A person: [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: Imagine! And they think they are leading a very saint life, you know. Only eating vegetarian food, they think they are very saint people. God's people are never beggars. They must have self-esteem and self-respect. If they feel insulted, then they should give up this profession.
Sahaja Yogi: Those who want to see Mother further, see Iain. He's at the back there and we'll take a step further then. Thank you very much.
A person: Thanks very much.
Shri Mataji: Thank you very much all of you. Thank you very much. I hope you convey the message so that many people get their Realization and you don't have any more diseases, anything left in your [UNCLEAR].
Sahaja Yogi: There's another thing. Mother is speaking tonight and tomorrow night and Thursday night at the exhibition hall, exhibition building [UNCLEAR]. And She gives the experience after the program.
Shri Mataji: And it acts. The main thing is it acts.
Sahaja Yogi: She actually gives the experience of Self Realization.
Shri Mataji: Yes, I do, I do, yes. It has to act. That's the difference between others and Me, at least. That much one can see clearly. It immediately changes you. Yesterday we had one cancer patient of liver. We should follow it, that case up. Now doctors have told him, "Within one month you are going to die," you see, and I told him, "All right." I made him sit with his left hand toward Me and the right hand outside. He started feeling much better and healthier. And if he is cured, that's the truth.
Sahaja Yogi: And it's happened many times under medical supervision.
Shri Mataji: I've also cured our president, Sir, Mr. Sanjeeva Reddy (-- former President of India - ed.). If you want, you can write to him and find out about his cancer.
Question: Where is that person that had cancer that you saw in Australia?
Shri Mataji: Here in Adelaide. He came only yesterday and he felt very much better after that. So many people felt better. Some people had stomach troubles and some people had frozen arms. Everybody felt better. Their arms opened out, automatically.
Question: When you claim cures like that do the medical professionals oppose you?
Shri Mataji: No, I have many doctors who are My disciples now, many doctors. You see, there are so many things still left to the doctors to do. I am not interested in patients. But if they come to My program they get all right. [UNCLEAR] I don't go to hospitals.
Sahaja Yogi: Challenges too much within our fabric of knowledge
Shri Mataji: No, but they won't be angry with Me, I'm sure, because they are overloaded with patients. They won't be so angry.
A person: It's very true.
Shri Mataji: You see, I am not interested in curing, but if they get cured, what should I do? Automatically they get cured.
Sahaja Yogi: Certainly the people that develop their Realization get better. There is no question about.
A person: [UNCLEAR] again. [UNCLEAR]. We got one camera. That's what people have to do. Hold out their hands like this.
Shri Mataji: Yes, just that. And put their both feet like this.
A person: I see. And hold their hands. That's the way.
Shri Mataji: Yes. It might work out.
A person: All right. We're just getting a shot, you see. You spread fingers, or fingers together?
Shri Mataji: Just like relaxed, you see, as if asking for something.
A person: Yes.
Shri Mataji: You will yourself start feeling. They are shaking a little. That means you work very hard.
A person: Yes, too hard.
Shri Mataji: On your nerves. Now they'll soothe down. See, the shaking is coming from too much strain on the nerves, specially the right side is shaking.
A person: [UNCLEAR]
Shri Mataji: You have to forgive. You have to forgive. Forgive, forgive everyone. Just forgive. Just forgive. Still shaking. This shaking has to go; then it will work out. I'm giving your balance, raising your left side, the emotional side. The right side of your action is being fulfilled. Close your eyes. Are you feeling peaceful now?
A person: Hmm. Did my hands stop shaking?
Shri Mataji: Yes, It has a little bit, still it didn't stop. [UNCLEAR] Better now. We overdo things, isn't it, which you should not. Now better. See, it stopped.
A person: And how long do I need to sit here like this?
Shri Mataji: Are you feeling the cool breeze in the hand? Are you feeling anything cool?
A person: I feel relaxed.
Shri Mataji: Relaxed?
A person: Yes.
Shri Mataji: No cooling in the hand? I see, I can see the pulsation is here, now, in the center of your head. Just pray. Takes hardly anytime. Still you are shaking, you see. All right, just say, "Mother, give me my Realization".
A person: Give me my Realization.
Shri Mataji: Again.
A person: Give me my Realization.
Shri Mataji: Once more. Once more.
A person: Give me my Realization. Give me my Realization. Give me my Realization.
Shri Mataji: Better.
A person: Give me my Realization.
Shri Mataji: Are you feeling the relaxation? Light, you feel light. You feel lighter.
Shri Mataji: [UNCLEAR]
A person: Hmm.
Shri Mataji: You have to forgive. It's too much work. How many years you have worked like this? Days in and days out worrying, for what? Everything is done by God. He does all the work. Now it's better.
A person: I feel tingling in my hand.
Shri Mataji: Tingling is not a bad sign. But it means it just started. It is moving all right. This is all right. Is it all right? This one is all right. This is still tingling. But this stopped shaking. Better. Better now. All right? It works. It works. It works. Now you can't think. Just watch Me. You can't think.
A person: I can think.
Shri Mataji: When you want you can think.
A person: Oh, yes.
Shri Mataji: But now you can be beyond thinking also.
A person: Oh really? What's .... ?
Shri Mataji: That's it. No worries. All right?
A person: All right.
Shri Mataji: Feeling the cool?
A person: Let's do the interview and then see if I relax out.
Shri Mataji: Oh, yes, yes. You will. You will relax much more.
A person: Will it be like Chris?
A person: Mother, this is for people watching now. What can there be in this for them?
Shri Mataji: What is?...
A person: What have you to say to the people who are watching this on the television on the moment?
Shri Mataji: Those who are watching at this time, they have to just spread their hands like this towards the television set and see if they feel any cool breeze in their hands. If they feel it, they should know that this is the Power of God's love, is the All Pervading Power about which everybody has talked. The time has come for all of us to achieve it. This is the epitome of our evolution by which we will found out our Selves, our Absolute, our meaning, our purpose of life. The first time you feel the All Pervading Power, which is doing all sorts of living work, like transforming a flower into a fruit. All this is done by God. What we do is the dead work, is transforming dead to the dead. But God does all the living work, and first time you start feeling this Power and then you have to learn how to use it for doing living work on this Earth.
Question: For the people who extend the hands towards you now on the television set, can I expect Self Realization?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course.
Question: And from there is a by-product health?
Shri Mataji: Yes, health, of course. They can,
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. But they have to see which hand is heavier, which hand is not heavier. They might get, all of them, spontaneously, Realization, but they have to come to Me to know how to maintain it, how to understand it, how to give it to others. Because God is only interested in those people who are going to work as lights. We do not keep enlightened lights under the table. So such people will get their Realization very fast if they desire it. Desire is very important.
Question: So there are some people watching at this very moment who are receiving that?
Shri Mataji: Yes, of course. It's all over, it's all pervading. It's like your ether through which they are seeing the television now. In the same way God's Power is everywhere. You can feel it.
Question: And it doesn't have to be that these people will be with you. They can do this by extending their hands towards the television set or the photograph.
Shri Mataji: Yes, My photograph is there. That's sufficient to work it out. That's sufficient to work it out. But they have to come to Me to decode it, what it is, how to feel it, what's the problem is. Because at the very first outset, I've seen, it rushes out and the whole thing you can feel very fast. But then it goes back to the problems that you have. So it is better to see that you learn all about it. And you don't have to pay anything, nothing of the kind. It's very easy. It's nothing difficult or complicated.
A person: All right. Thank you very much. All were happy with that. What we do? We got enough?
Another person: One more shoot.
A person: There will be one more shot.
Shri Mataji: One minute. It was probably more than that.
A person: It was a little bit more all that. Now we'll better check if they are both back shaking again.
Shri Mataji: Still shaking. See what you are doing to yourself. You must learn to relax.
A person: Hmm. Working too much.
Shri Mataji: Yes, too much. You are working to hard. You can clearly see. Why should they shake? You are a young man, I'm an old woman. See now how much they are shaking. Just see this. This is not good.
A person: At best, learn to relax a little.
Shri Mataji: Now you have to use My photograph. That's the best way to relax. You can put My photograph in front, put a light before it. Put your hands towards the photograph. Put both your feet in the water and little salt. The whole thing will go in the water. And flush it out that water. You find everything all right. He's got it, I think. At the top of his head, he's got it, but his hand are heavy. First we have to talk to all kinds of people also, you see, catch from them as well. Do you smoke?
A person: No.
Shri Mataji: Hmm. Then it should not happen. It's only nervousness.
A person: Hmm.
Shri Mataji: Better. You're feeling it. Yes, is there. Yes, is there. Little balance I put within you. Too much working with your brain and very futuristic, and a speedy person. All right? Now, better.
A person: Yes. I thank you very much for talking with me.
Shri Mataji: Thank. I hope you'll communicate to the people. Let the Australians get this. This is their right to have it.
Sahaja Yogi: [UNCLEAR]
A Person: Yes, sir. She did tell us [UNCLEAR].
Sahaja Yogi: Thanks a lot.
A Person: All right. Thank you very much.