News
 

Universal shared details about Helios, its newest hotel. And officially revamped its hotel categories:

The Signature Collection – including Universal Helios Grand Hotel, Loews Portofino Bay Hotel, Hard Rock Hotel, Loews Royal Pacific Resort and Loews Sapphire Falls Resort – offers full-service amenities, distinguished service, exceptional dining and more.

Len says: [Helios isn’t going to get Express Pass, so … there are really 4 levels?]

The Prime Value Hotels – including Universal Aventura Hotel, Universal Stella Nova Resort (opening January 21, 2025) and Universal Terra Luna Resort (opening February 25, 2025) – offer a mix of services and amenities made for comfort.

The Value Inns and Suites – including Universal Cabana Bay Beach Resort and Universal Endless Summer Resort – Surfside Inn and Suites & Dockside Inn and Suites – are fun, affordable options offering standard rooms and spacious suites with kitchenettes.

Concept art:

Lobby

Guest Room

Flora Taverna

Taverna Lobby Bar

Aurora Market

Lotus Lagoon

Bar Helios

Resort Pool

EPCOT’s Food & Wine Festival started last week. We’ll have Christina on the show soon with all the best tips.

EPCOT’s ¡Celebración Encanto! is going to run through February 1, 2025.

• 25-minute show with 6 performances per day.

Disney Cruise Line announced the inaugural sailing of the Disney Destiny, out of Fort Lauderdale on November 20, 2025.

A new filing by the CFTOB:

In the project brief, the document states, "The purpose of this project is to provide a new transformer service yard, transformer loop, and SCADA monitoring cabinets for a new resort."

The Magic Kingdom has installed new concrete in Adventureland designed to look like natural roads, with footprints, animal paw prints, and more! I did a quick Instagram video on this, titled “A Salute to All Pavements But Mainly Concrete.”

Surveys

Jeff Clune sends in what appears to be a new Disney survey, asking how you allocated your money during your last trip:

Rachel Kay sends in this Universal survey asking about her kids’ media viewing habits.

Rachel writes: First asked what children under 18 we have in our home (separated by gender, then age range - e.g., 0-2 year old boy, 3-5 year old boy).  I selected 13-17 year old boy and 10-12 year old girl.

I then got three questions only about the girl: First, what brands would my daughter have heard of? I selected Cocomelon and Bluey from the long list.  Second, is she aware of their YouTube channels (I selected no).  And then third, about her media consumption habits:

That was the end of the survey.

Len says: As one of four children I'm aware that I'm not my mom's favorite - I'm a solid #3, which gets me on the podium. And I totally understand why - my sisters put up with a lot more from my mom.

And I like to tell my only-child daughter, when she asks if she's my favorite child, that she's "right there in the mix of that conversation." (Her therapy is going well - thanks for asking!)

But it's something else for a corporation to say it, you know? My guess is Rachel’s daughter is closer in age to the demographic they're after for their new park in Texas. But still - kind of an abrupt end to that conversation, eh?

Listener Questions

Our friend Dan Bodenstein points out an overlooked advantage of putting Cars Land in Rivers of America:

If the actual ride design uses something like Radiator Springs Racers and Test Track, each car will have 22 wheels with 18 of them being under the track. That means there’s a lot going on under the road. Having a carved out river to start working from gives them an advantage of not having to either elevate the road higher or dig.

From Avery Krouse:

On a recent episode, you mentioned that your current tracking shows that wait times have decreased both for people using lightning lane and for people who are not, and you speculated that this might be due to the DAS changes. But I’m not entirely certain why that would happen. Assuming the same number of people in the park, wouldn’t there be the same number of people getting in line, just getting in the standby line instead of the lightning lane? Would love to hear your thoughts on the wait time decrease in a bit more detail. Thanks!

Len says: I'm guessing one (or both) of two things:

1) Some people won't go to the parks if they have to pay for G+

2) They're not going on the same number of rides, or the same kinds of rides, as before

For example, I'd happily go on Slinky Dog Dash if I can use Lightning Lane. But I'm not going to wait 90 minutes for it, so I'd skip it otherwise.

My guess is the same sort of cost/benefit calculation is going on here.

Brendan Keiser  asks this:

What’s the status of the Moana ride at Animal Kingdom since it didn’t get announced at D23?

Len says: Brent’s talking about the 2022 D23 concept art that showed a Moana-themed water ride where we now know we’re getting the Madrigal Family attraction.

I note that we’ve not heard anything big for Moana yet for Walt Disney World, and Moana 2 comes out November 27, 2024. The original 2016 film did right at $327MM in 2024 dollars for domestic box office, and sold an additional $150MM in DVDs. It’s always been popular on D+ and was critically acclaimed.

So if Moana 2 does well, we could see plans for a big Moana attraction somewhere in Walt Disney World in Phase 2, somewhere in the 2030 to 2034 timeline. The big question, Jim, is where does a Moana attraction go? 

From Sarah Ossler:

I am a long time listener of the pod, and I love how you guys break things down. My sister lives close to Orlando, and when I visit her I typically go to a Disney park for one day. This got me thinking- what is the park that gives you the best bang for your buck? Taking into consideration how many attractions are in the park, cost of Lightning Lane, hours the park is open, and typical lines, which park would you say is the best value for a one day experience?

Len says: I think most people would say Magic Kingdom, and that would be my first choice. Tons of attractions, usually has the longest hours of any park. The downside is that it can be the most crowded.

I’m going to go out on a limb here and rank the parks in this order:

• Magic Kingdom - also has my current favorite nighttime spectacular (Happily Ever After)
• EPCOT - because you can spend a ton of time walking through World Showcase. Lots of dining options.
• Animal Kingdom - same thing, but for animals. Tons of trails. And the food is good.
• Hollywood Studios - it’s not bad, but something had to be fourth

Greg Caster writes in with this:

I think Villains Land is perfect. You transition from Fantasyland’s happy hundred-acre woods to the deep dark forest.  You could even keep Sleepy Hollow Treats as a villains-type quick service. And turn Ye Olde Christmas Shoppe into a  Nightmare Before Christmas store.

I’m excited to see how Disney presents the villains here. Do they lean into the scariness? I mean, some of these folks tried to kill some of the princesses in the next town over! Or do they lean more into the comedy? Which villains do they use?  And why are all the villains in this area?  What is the backstory?

Len says: I think we’ve said on the show that Villains are the most adaptable characters in the Disney canon. You can do a wider range of emotions with them than with the others. So it’s possible to do “funny” villains during the day and “scary” villains at night, say for Halloween Parties. And God, Jim, don’t get me started on what Halloween Party tickets are going to cost in the year 2031.

From Chris Reed:

Regarding your discussion about the imminent end of Liberty Square and reassignment of the Haunted Mansion to "Villian's Land". Foxx Nolte dates the Haunted Mansion to 1840-1850 in the masterpiece book "Boundless Realm".

Liberty Square is dated to the Colonial Period in America which ended about 1783.

Therefore the Haunted Mansion is 67-77 years after the Colonial Period and hence was never really a part of Liberty Square.  Eliminating Liberty Square will actually clear up this time warp in the Liberty Square area.

Len says: My response to Chris involved joyful cursing, along the lines of “For once the stars align and the park makes more sense.” Insert whatever profanity wherever you think appropriate to get the response tone you think I was after.

Also, I had to look up why Chris chose 1783 for the end of the Colonial period. Because we all know the Declaration of Independence was 1776, the Articles of Confederation were written in 1777 and adopted in 1781, and the Constitution was written in 1787, ratified in 1788, and took effect in 1789. So why 1783?

The Treaty of Paris, which officially ended what the US State Department calls the War of the American Revolution, was signed in 1783, proving that it’s not over until the paperwork is filed. Because we have listeners in the State Department of whom I’ve asked the occasional favor, I will not ponder the use of both “War” and “Revolution” in their title. Please don’t cancel my Global Entry.

From Ray Kastner:

On the D23 recap show you mentioned that Disney would use two of its four upcoming ships to replace the Magic and the Wonder. But Disney’s said they’ll have a fleet of 13 ships, and that would make it able to compete with larger fleets, since they’re undersized now compared to others.

I mean, they could also buy two more ships to increase the size of the fleet. But maybe Disney keeps the ships? There are a number of reasons why that doesn’t make sense, and all of them have to do with revenue:

• The Magic and the Wonder are capped at 2,700 passengers
• They’re limited in the number and type of suites they offer, and those are premium products that generate better-than-average revenue
• Their ability to upcharge is limited on the Magic and Wonder:

• The spa isn’t modern
• They have only one specialty dining restaurant
• Bar space is limited

Maintenance eventually becomes a problem. They have older engines and older technology.

At some point it's going to be difficult to convince consumers to pay Disney prices for a ship like that.

The Magic was launched on May 13, 1997, and the Wonder on February 23, 1998.

Just doing some quick research, it seems like very few cruise ships make it past 30 years. Royal Caribbean has ships the same age as the Magic/Wonder - the Vision of the Seas and Enchantment of the Seas (both 1998), and the Rhapsody of the Seas and the Grandeur of the Seas (both 1997).

Vision of the Seas sails out of Baltimore, which I note is not the most competitive cruise market in the US. I would be surprised if Disney ever chose an East Coast port of out anywhere other than Florida, since the appeal of visiting Walt Disney World once you're in Florida is an add-on that Disney almost certainly values.

Rhapsody, Grandeur and Enchantment sail the Caribbean, out of Florida, so they're not relegated to, you know, the Iceland-to-Greenland cruise market. But they probably don't generate a ton of revenue. I note that you can get cruises on either the Grandeur or Enchantment for under $70 per person per night, and Rhapsody at $90/night.

In contrast, the least-expensive cruise on the Magic, excluding one-way sailings, is $305 per night, or 3 to 4 times more expensive than Royal. That's a tough premium to maintain as the ships get older.

On the other hand, the ships are paid for, so the margins are probably fantastic. I can see them keeping them around for as long as the numbers work.

Lorenzo Pernetti asks this:

Walt Disney only experienced 10 years of theme park history.  Which was not a long time to gauge what attractions would work and what ones guests would adore.

The park was a little bit of a mess and probably did not hit its stride until a decade after his death.

And he never even saw two of the greatest attractions, Pirates and Mansion.  

So the continuous quoting or misquoting of Walt Disney in defense of always saying that Disney parks are not museums....is a little misguided.

And...just because the bean counters make a decision, it does not mean it is the right one because  it's a change in direction. The company spent $300 to $500 million on the Starcruiser and botched Epcot makeover as well.  

Honestly...based on everything since Everest...do you trust them to make an attraction a home run...? They seem to be getting on base with some infield errors.

Len says:

A couple of points - Walt definitely had a hand in Mansion and Pirates.

And using Lorenzo’s baseball analogy, Galactic Starcruiser was a home-run swing that missed. They can’t all connect, and even if Starcruiser closed, we have to give Disney a ton of credit for trying something so out-of-the-box.

And one of the questions that I had after reading Lorenzo’s email is this: How many of the Magic Kingdom/Disneyland attractions that we love have come from the “Walt Era” of the parks? And in general, how many classic Disney attractions are there, and how many did Walt have input into?

And I think for “classic” we have to include attractions like Hall of Presidents and Enchanted Tiki Room, which are not in demand these days, but the fact that they’ve lived so long and were spectacular in their time, makes them classics.

Classics that Walt didn’t have input into:

• Big Thunder Mountain
• Splash/Tiana’s Bayou Adventure
• Spaceship Earth
• Soarin’
• The American Adventure
• Kilimanjaro Safaris
• Tower of Terror
  

The “I’m Not Sure” list (would you wait in the standby line for it again?)

• Rock ‘n Roller Coaster
• Indiana Jones Adventure
• Star Tours
• Rise of the Resistance
• Buzz Lightyear’s Space Ranger Spin
• Flight of Passage
• Test Track

Former attractions that might be considered classics:

• Horizons
• World of Motion
• Great Movie Ride
• 20K Leagues

On the subject of rides you’d ride for 24 hours:

• Nicole Kaplan says she’d glady ride Pirates or Soarin’ for 24 hours. Jim, do we want to know what our clothes would smell like after 24 hours on Pirates?
  
• Shane Grizzard reminds me that he was part of a team that attempted to set a Guinness World Record by riding the TTA for 24 hours during the last 24-hour day in the Magic Kingdom.
  

And last, from Ryan McGhee:

Hear me out: Space Mountain Goof Galaxy

Research/Patents (use query "disney enterprises".as AND "theme park".ab)

Construction of the original Big Thunder Mountain Railway
at Disneyland Park in Anaheim – Part One of Two

We’re about to enter a really interesting period of time in Florida. With two theme parks at the Walt Disney World Resort reinventing major sections:

·          Over at Disney’s Animal Kingdom, Chester & Hester’s Dinorama and Dinoland, U.S.A. are about to be imagined as a new “Encanto” –themed area. Likewise the Dino Institute – home to “Dinosaur: The Ride” – is about to become a new Mayan-inspired version of Disneyland’s “Indiana Adventure.”

·          Meanwhile over at Florida’s Magic Kingdom, the Imagineers are about to pull the plug on the Rivers of America. Draining that body of water and flattening Tom Sawyer Island. Which will then open up the real estate necessary to build an ambitious new Cars-theme road rally ride.

Which – I know – is upsetting to some Disney theme park fans. Change is hard, people.

If it’s any comfort at all, people who love Disneyland Park out in Anaheim went through a similar situation back in the mid-1970s. That was when that theme park’s “Mine Train thru Nature’s Wonderland” (which Walt himself had helped design. More importantly, had been in Disneyland – in one form or another – since the place first opened back in July of 1955) was plowed under in early 1977 to make room for Big Thunder Mountain Railroad.

Now given that that runaway train attraction doesn’t exactly follow a straight path … Well, it’s only fitting that Big Thunder’s road to being built is filled with twists & turns.

In fact, it’s worth noting here that the very first Big Thunder Mountain Railroad wasn’t even supposed to be built in California. As Foxx Nolte notes in his excellent new book (i.e., “Scoundrels Villains & Knaves: Disneyland, Pirates of the Caribbean and Pop Culture.” Which was published by Inklingwood Press just last month. On August 15, 2024, to be exact).

Anyway, as Foxx points out in this 342-page paperback … Back in the Late 1960s, the original plans for Florida’s Magic Kingdom called for a massive table-top mountain to be built along the shores of the Rivers of America.

This genuinely massive structure – which was actually supposed to have been “ … three giant buildings bisected by the Walt Disney World Railroad” -- would have been home to a number of Frontierland attractions:

·          a runaway mine train

·          a log flume

·          hiking trails that would have allowed Guests to reach the top of this table-top mountain. Where visitors to the Magic Kingdom would have then found a recreation of an authentic Pueblo Village. Which is where Guests could have then shopped for genuine handmade Native American crafts & goods. Not to mention learned of the culture & traditions of the First Peoples by attending things like storytelling sessions & dance presentations.

Mind you, all of that is going on the outside of Thunder Mesa (That’s what this massive structure was supposed to be called, by the way). Meanwhile, inside this inter-connected series of three show buildings was …

Well, in the load area of this attraction, there was supposed to be a restaurant very much in the style of Disneyland’s Blue Bayou. Where Guests could have dined on Southwestern cuisine as they watched boats full of people float by.

And the people on those boats … Well, they were headed off on a “Western River Expedition.” Which was – as Foxx describes it – took “ … the dramatic beats of Disneyland’s ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ ride and then used those moments as the jumping-off point for a musical western.”

Now Len & I have talked at length about “Western River Expedition” on earlier editions of “Disney Dish.” So we’re not going to talk much about this never-built-attraction on today’s show.

That said, we are going to take a few minutes to discuss why “Western River Expedition” – which was in serious development at WED from the Late Winter / Early Spring of 1968 right through to December of 1971 – never got built. And that has a lot to do with Walt Disney Productions’ initial expectations for Florida’s Magic Kingdom.

In “Scoundels Villians & Knaves,” Foxx shares a quote from Marty Sklar. Who talks about how Buzz Price (He was the guy that the Company hired to find just the right spot in the Sunshine State to build Project Florida).

Anyway, Buzz – in a report that he shared with Disney’s Board of Directors in the early 1960s (prior to the Company buying up all that land in Central Florida) – projected that, in the Magic Kingdom’s first full year of operation, six million people would visit that theme park.

Which – given that that matched Disneyland’s attendance levels for this exact same period of time – was a stat that Mouse House managers could put faith in. Could take at face value.

But here’s the thing: By the time Florida’s Magic Kingdom was actually under construction in 1969 – Disneyland Park out in California was now getting eight million visitors a year. Which means that the Company needs to think seriously about revising its attendance expectations for Project Florida upwards.

And Mouse House Managers were so glad that they actually eventually did this. Especially given that – in its first full year of operation – Florida’s Magic Kingdom got over 10 million visitors.

Long story short: As originally designed, Disney’s first Florida theme park wasn’t going to be nearly big enough to meet Guest demand on opening day. And given that the overall cost of turning those 40 square miles of swampland in Central Florida into the Walt Disney World had skyrocketed (Going from $100 million to $400 million) …

More to the point, given that the super-deluxe table-top mountain version of Thunder Mesa was going to take years to construction and easily add over $50 million to the cost of constructing the Magic Kingdom, the Imagineers were under tremendous pressure to pare that project down to something more reasonable / easier to build. With the idea that the saved revenue could then be used to add additional, more affordable rides, shows & attractions to that theme park. Which would then address more quickly the Magic Kingdom’s capacity problem.

And – by December of 1971 – that’s just what the Imagineers had down. They’d taken Thunder Mesa and peeled away … Well, the Pueblo Village at the top. The sit-down restaurant inside. The flume ride that slid down the front side of that mountain. Not to mention that runaway train ride that rolled through all of those canyons hidden on the backside of Thunder Mesa. Leaving only a slimmed down version of the “Western River Expedition.”

This Roy O Disney – Walt’s brother – had indicated he’d sign off on. But then Roy O was felled by a stroke on December 18, 1971 and then died just two days later. And because the man who replaced Walt’s brother as the new head of Walt Disney Productions was a far more cautious fellow than Roy O … Well, “Western River Expedition” effectively died with Walt’s brother.

Which is something that Jim Shull – our partner over on the “Disney Unpacked” project. That series of videos we’re doing over on Patreon -- wanted me to point out: That one man can make a huge difference at Disney.

Case in point: The version of New Fantasyland that was supposed to be built at Florida’s Magic Kingdom when Jay Rasulo was in charge of the Disney theme parks versus the version of New Fantasyland that was ultimately built in Orlando after Tom Staggs was then put in charge of Parks.

Shull brought this up to me the other day because people were losing their minds over what could potentially happen to Muppetvision 3D at Disney Hollywood Studios. You have to remember that Bob Iger will be stepping down as the Company’s CEO at the end of 2026.

I know, I know. Bob Iger always says that he’s going to leave and then never does. That said, I want to remind you all that – just last week (on August 22, 2024) -- Morgan Stanley Executive Chairman James Gorman was placed in charge of the team that will now search for a successor to Bob Iger. So this is a thing, people.

More to the point, when someone else is in charge of The Walt Disney Company in 2027, he or she could take all of these supposedly shovel-ready plans that Bob Iger has already supposedly signed off of and just toss them out the window. September 2024 to January of 2027 is just two years and five months away, folks. That’s barely a blip in theme park years.

Another quick side note here: There are a lot of folks who moan about what might have been when it comes to “Western River Expedition” and what might have been. How this proposed theme attraction for Florida’s Magic Kingdom was Marc Davis’ lost masterpiece. The greatest thing that this genuine Disney Legend ever designed.

Well, over the past 30 years, I’ve seen a lot of the concept art that Marc created for “Western River Expedition.” Some of which Davis personally showed me in the house that he & his wife Alice lived in for decades in the Los Feliz section of Los Angeles.  And I have to say that Marc’s comically caricatured versions of the Native Americans that were supposed to have appeared in “Western River Expedition” just wouldn’t have played in today’s more politically correct times. These drawings were very much in the style of the redmen you see in Disney’s animated version of “Peter Pan” from 1953.

And if – as we discussed on last week’s “Disney Dish” – if the Company had seen fit to redo the Indian Encampment scene (The one that Guests fly over aboard their pirate galleon as they soar above Never Land Island as they experience “Peter Pan Flight” at WDW’s Magic Kingdom) … There’s just no way that the Native Americans that Marc Davis dreamed up for “Western River Expedition” back in the Late 1960s / early 1970s would still be up & running / available for viewing in 2024 America.

Anyway … Back to December of 1971. Roy O. Disney is dead. Card Walker is now the new head of Walt Disney Productions. Card is a far more cautious businessman than Walt’s brother. He hears that people who are visiting Florida’s Magic Kingdom are dropping by City Hall on their way out of the Park to say “We thought that there’d be a ‘Pirates of the Caribbean’ here. Why didn’t you bring that attraction to Orlando?”

Walker takes that info and goes to the Imagineers in April of 1972 & says “Forget about ‘Western River.’ I want a version of Disneyland’s ‘Pirates’ ride for Florida. And it has to be up & running by December of 1973.”

Mind you, Florida’s version of ‘Pirates’ had an awful lot in common with the never-built ‘Western River.’  It was a boat ride housed in a show building that was the same approximate size of the slimmed-down, streamlined version of ‘Western River’ that Roy O. was reportedly ready to sign off on. Not only that, but Florida’s version of “Pirates of the Caribbean” reportedly had the exact same number of Audio-Animatronic figures that had been approved for the “Western River Expedition” ride.

So you gotta wonder – given the short window of time that the Imagineers were given to deliver Florida’s version of “Pirates of Caribbean” (i.e., from April of 1972 to December of 1973) – whether or not someone at WED (in an effort to save money & time here) just took the Company’s plans for “Western River” and just scratched out the words “cowboys & Indians” and just scribbled in “pirates” instead.

And speaking of making use of discarded plans … Let’s get back to all of that stuff which had originally been proposed for Thunder Mesa in Florida. To be specific, that indoor restaurant, that flume ride, that pueblo village at the top of the mountain and that runaway train ride.

Now that runaway train idea, that caught the attention of then-relatively young Imagineer Tony Baxter. He’s come over to WED in January of 1970 after spending a couple of years at Disneyland as an ice cream scooper. And for the past year or so, Baxter had been out in the field in Florida helping to get opening day attractions like “20,000 Leagues Under the Sea” up & running at the Magic Kingdom.

Anyway … It’s now 1972. And Tony’s now back from Florida at 1401 Flower Street and looking for a way to make himself useful. Because here’s the thing that they DON’T tell you when you’re thinking of pursuing a career in themed entertainment. That – once a project’s complete – most of the creative team then gets laid off.

So Baxter’s now back at WED and actively looking for a way to make himself seem like someone Imagineering should be hanging onto. And Tony … He does a very smart thing. He takes that runaway mine train idea (which had once just been a bonus feature for the Thunder Mesa project) and says “This looks like a ride in & of itself. One not for Florida, though. This would be a much better fit at Disneyland in Anaheim.”

Mind you, in order for that to happen – as we mentioned at the top of today’s feature – “Mine Train Thru Nature’s Wonderland” (something that Walt himself had helped design for Disneyland along with Marc Davis) would first have to go away.

So how exactly the Imagineers did that (build a runaway mine train ride right in the middle of a still operating family fun park. Which is the same sort of construction that we’re about to see get underway at Disney’s Animal Kingdom & over at Florida’s Magic Kingdom in the not-so-distant future), we’ll discuss in the second installment of this series. Which will be part of the next edition of “Disney Dish.”

• Great chatting with you today.  Fascinating and interesting on all counts. I’m excited about coming on to your podcast.  I spoke to my team about joining me on the show.  They are in and excited as well.  They will nail it with your audience. I’ll be in New Zealand Jan 5-22. Other than those dates, I can be flexible and available to record the show. I look forward to staying in touch and connecting when our paths cross in the same city.  Thanks.
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• Dane Chapin
• CEO
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• Tel: 760.505.7100
• Email: dane@usaopoly.com