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Downtown Parking Town Hall 08/26/2024
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Downtown Parking Town Hall

Documenter name: Debbie Haslam

Agency: CIty of Wichita: Held at Norton’s Brewing Company

Date: Aug. 26, 2024

See more about this meeting at Documenters.org

 

Panel Members: 

Vice Mayor Maggie Ballard

Councilmember Dalton Glasscock

Dan Norton, owner of Nortons Brewing Company

Natasha Gandhi-Rue, owner of The Kitchen

Josh Rathbun, owner of Lotte

Mayor Lily Wu

Bob Layton,City Manager

Jennifer Ray owner of The Monarch.

Also in attendance, though not on the panel, was Assistant City Manager Troy Anderson, along with three Wichita Police officers, likely present for security purposes. All three news stations were present with cameras.

Nortons is usually closed on Mondays, but they opened their doors to host this Town Hall meeting, inviting members of the city council to address questions and concerns regarding the City’s Paid Parking plan.

The event was emceed by Sarah Jane Crespo, Events and Engagement manager at Kansas Health Foundation.

It was a little difficult to get an accurate count due to the arrangement of the venue, but I would guess that there were approximately 75-80 people in attendance.

The meeting began at 6:04 pm, Nico Leitener-Goddard, of Norton’s Brewing Company, gave a brief message to start the meeting off. As an employee of a small business, this meeting was important to him and he thanked several people for their part in bringing this meeting together. He also thanked the panel and especially the City Council and the media for covering the meeting.

Sarah Jane Crespo, explained how the meeting would go. There have been some questions prepared that accurately represent the business owners downtown that would be posed to the panel. Those in attendance were able to fill out a form with questions as well.

There is also a QR code that leads to the PowerPoint presentation that Troy Anderson, Assistant City Manager has presented at previous public meetings.

Crespo explained that there would be two parts – first to hear from the downtown panel, and then questions for the City Council.

Crespo shared that there has been a lot of buzz about the city’s decision to charge for parking. She said to Dan Norton, that this is not the first time he has had a run in with the city and parking. Norton was asked to share about his situation in 2018.

Don Norton, Norton’s Brewing Company–When he first began the process of opening his business he knew that the parking lot to the south of his business was a city owned lot. At that time he was under the impression that it was a free lot. Weeks before opening his doors, the lot was given a payment box and other items to charge for the parking there. Norton referred to then senior management analyst, Scott Wadle as the “Parking Czar”. Norton exercised his rights through the Freedom of Information Act, to get emails that were transferred between Wadle and Car Park. He learned that revenue was the big pull for marking that lot. Norton said that basically the emails said “We can get a lot of revenue off of this lot.”

Norton felt that this was a very disappointing start to his business. $2 parking, $25 parking tickets. Because of this, he stopped serving lunch and now serves lunch on Friday’s only.

Crespo - There is still a sign in the lot, but the city is not collecting anymore. Crespo asked the city panelists: Did these parking fees go to the city or to Car Park?

Mayor Wu – She wanted to start out with some background and continued to explain how she just got into office in January (and Councilmember Glasscock). She then mentioned that Bob Layton and Troy Anderson are here and gave the floor to Layton in response to this question.

Layton – He first mentioned that the city is on their second contract with Car Park. The majority of their work is with garages, collecting fees, and management. He is not sure when Car Park quit collecting from that lot. At one point there was great demand from this lot. They were trying to find the right solution along with other businesses.

Norton – Would you concur that this was a way to make revenue on that lot?

Layton responded that he was not familiar with that and would not condone an approach like that.

Natasha Gandhi-Rue, The Gandhi-Rue – When she was looking for a place, she specifically looked for a place that they could pay for our parking. Free parking is misleading. She believes that she needs parking for their customers to come eat with them. Twenty four years ago, downtown was a ghost town. Small businesses have been a big part of making this a vibrant area.

Jennifer Ray, The Monarch- She talked about how she represents the Delano area. From a public standpoint, there is no parking in Delano. The parking behind the Monarch is privately owned. But they have been generous in allowing other businesses to use it. When the Multi-Modal Center is put in, she may lose that parking. How can we keep our business going when we don’t have parking?

Josh Rathbun, Lotti – He shared his experience when they opened last year. Lotti is at English and Market and they were able to receive a great loan because it was an “urban distressed” area. He chose the area because he banked on the belief that growth was going to come. The area downtown isn’t fully developed yet. It still has a ways to go. He currently pays for parking from Fidelity Bank, which is a private lot.

Crespo - Describe the Urban distress label and what it means?

Layton shared that it is not a city designation as such, but that they do have incentives for businesses. The city also has other tools that can be used for support. Your business has to be in a distressed area to qualify for that incentive.

Creso shared how Troy Anderson said in a previous public meeting that he recommended paying for your employees' parking. The guess was that the payment would be approximately $50 a month. She mentioned 24 employees and calculated that this would be over $14,000 a year. Norton then said that, for him, it would be more like 60 employees ($36,000). The zone designated for paid parking, would require his employees to park at Central, which is several blocks away and he would not want them walking that far at night.

Norton suggested that the city “Start over and come up with something different”. The comment was followed by applause.

Erin Sutton, Eric Fisher Salon owner – Their parking has diminished through the years of being downtown. Paid parking will drive clients away from downtown and they will lose their business.

Vice Mayor Ballard –Shared that she is hearing that it would be helpful to know what customers would be paying. If you come downtown to eat or get your hair done, people want to know what the cost will be.

Layton – This gives us the opportunity to talk about what is acceptable and what is  not. The burden has fallen on the city. We are currently in a deficit each year on maintaining lots, garages, etc. He feels that they are hearing that a one size fits all isn’t going to work. That said, we still need to recover revenue. He says how Delano will be different. When the biomed center opens, parking will be difficult to find. Finding a balance between fulfilling the needs for the financing of parking and fulfilling the needs of the businesses.

Norton- The issue is that the plan was supposed to be launched in January but all the details are not figured out. He was given applause for this comment.

Layton – A few weeks ago, we believed that we were going to launch, but then we have heard the concerns of all of you and are now rethinking the plan.

Gandhi-Rue - In response to a comment that Norton made about the cost of a beer at his establishment, she said it is $2 to park and $7 for a beer. That is over 20% extra. That is a huge percentage for our businesses. The Kitchen covers the parking around her. People will not come downtown if they have to pay for parking, beyond what they spend in our business.

Rathbun – You have to keep it simple. That is the approach we should take. Wichitans prefer it that way.

Ray –As a Delano person and a business owner, you would think she is a risk taker but she said she is not into risk taking. If there was an option to just pay the City each month, she would go for that.  Delano is tough. There are many storefronts that don’t have the ability to pull up and leave, pull up and leave. These businesses do not have a good option.

Councilmember Glasscock – shared that he lives in Delano. For him, Delano has to be different from Old Town and Downtown. Parking will change drastically when the Multi-modal Center is finished. As he sees it, there are three types of ways that parking is paid for. His concern was the enforcement process. He thinks it should be managed in house. Outsourcing to someone else just doesn’t seem right.

Cresco - Asked for the city to say more about the new transit hub?

Layton - The Multi-modal Center will take the place of the transit center downtown. The Q-line will connect with that facility and this is a free service. Public transit will go all the way out to Edgemoor and he believes this will provide relief for additional parking in Delano.

Cresco  -Will the Q-line increase the number of routes? And when will this happen?

Layton -We really won’t know until the transit study occurs. The study will be complete at the end of the year. The city will look at that point at extending the routes, additional routes, and Sunday services.

Patrick Root, owner of The  Leprechauns Lab –  Asked from the audience about people that have to leave their cars due to intoxication. He shared how this happens frequently at his establishment and wonders what happens to cars left in a parking lot overnight.

Vice Mayor Ballard – She talked about how she loves Lawrence and that they do free parking on the weekends. She suggested that maybe this is something the city can consider. She is a previous bar owner and knows that it is important to get patrons home safely.

Gandhi-Rue – Asked why we are not enforcing parking currently.

Mayor Wu – Said that this is concerning. She shared a story about traveling around downtown and observing parking. She went to a parking garage that was supposed to be open after 6:00 pm. Currently the arm was down and she had to buzz into security to get into the garage. She said the true conversation that we need to have is, how are we going to maintain these parking garages? Is it going to be property tax? Parking downtown? How are we going to pay for these things? The technology involved with the parking meters and kiosks cost money to maintain. She said that she has asked staff to give them more options. Who should be paying for garages, lots, etc? She mentioned that she heard a lot of concerns about safety. She is also concerned about safety. OTher elected officials are concerned too. We are wanting to hear from engaged citizens.

Crespo mentioned how we are in a uniquely difficult time. When it comes to parking meters, to expect everyone to pay with an app is ridiculous and to ask everyone to pay with cash is equally ridiculous.

Sarah, a local artist who was in attendance, asked if there was something else that can be cut before doing this?

Vice Mayor Ballard – There are a lot of parking spaces not being utilized. We are having to pay for the city to keep up these unused parking lots. Everyone wants great parking, but we have to find ways to do this.

An audience member asked How much revenue are we looking at?

Layton said that there is no money in capital replacement, security and other aspects of the park. The large capital costs may come out of the city budget. Other big programs may get cut. $750,000 million of deficit is his estimate. He also mentioned losing the property taxes of businesses if they were to leave the downtown area.

Norton – He shared how he attended his first city council meeting and there was good discussion and they allowed for asking questions. He thanked the city for halting this plan and asking questions. In regards to local businesses in these areas, he said that some pay for parking, some don’t. Norton suggested that the city consider having a charge for every business in these areas.

Ray asked the city if they knew what the annual collection from Old Town was.

Layton - $250,000 approximately.

A woman who owns a business in Old Town spoke up from the audience. She said that they pay $7.50 per space. She asked if an appropriate rate increase could occur and that it could be done across the board in all three areas?

Ray mentioned that parking is part of doing business. She also wants to make sure that everything is done fairly.

Councilmember Glasscock – There are different ways to address this. There are parking lots that are not used. How can we be innovative and look at things to be fair for everyone?

Gandhi-Rue – All parking becomes paid parking when events are happening at the Arena. Can the garages be used to bring in revenue? Can these be used more during events?

Layton – Some of the garages are privately owned, and it is up to them if they charge. What they earn is their revenue.

Layton suggested parking agreements? Like they have with Old Town. This agreement was supposed to ramp up over time, but that didn’t happen. If it was at a reasonable rate, would that be something businesses would consider?

Norton said that he doesn’t want to raise menu prices to cover parking costs. So it would depend. He would love the city to reassess the budget and leave businesses out of it.

Bryon McSwain, owner of Greater Grounds, is passionate about this. He shared how he just opened his business a month ago and he picked downtown for a reason. As he spoke about his $300,000 investment and 5-year contract he became choked up. He is concerned about his business.

Norton spoke up and asked what was the name of his coffee shop and then encouraged everyone there to go get coffee at Greater Grounds the next day.

A woman who owns a business in Old Town was also choked up with emotion as she said that  most people don’t want to pay for parking. All of the businesses in these areas are replaceable.  People can get all of these things elsewhere. She said that Old Town is a ghost town now. She told the city officials that they are not going to gain the revenue that you want. This statement received applause from those in attendance.

Mayor Wu, when asked to respond to these comments, stated that this is not what the city’s intention is. She emphasized that they halted this plan two weeks ago. They did this so that they could come up with other solutions. That said, parking maintenance needs to be number one. The city needs to look at how we maintain what we have and what we will build in the future.  Maintenance should be our top priority.

Business owner from Old Town asked if it took the full $250,000 to maintain parking in Old Town?

Crespo directed the business owners' concerns to the city, asking if the revenue stays in the areas collected?

Layton said that parking is a general fund. Everything goes into the parking fund. He also estimated $400,000 to $450,000 to maintain parking in Old Town. There is so much parking that is not utilized. Most of this parking is not close to the popular businesses. Some of those parking lots will be sold off and this could be put back into the parking fund.

Norton – Is there a market to sell those lots?

Layton and Councilmember Glasscock both said yes.

Councilmember Glasscock explained that the District that is being looked at is very large.

A Business owner that is  just outside of the area shared that once you get out of the designated area, there is parking for miles. He suggested building up instead of out.

VIce Mayor Ballard said that she loved that idea. The city only has one person that checks cars currently and maybe we should be hiring more people.

The Business owner from outside of the area asked why would he move his business here (downtown)? The “Hot spots” move around. The city should find creative solutions to build up instead of out. Where is the incentive for business owners to move downtown? He wouldn’t do it.

Gandhi-Rue shared the reason she chose downtown. She knew that there was equal distance from west to east. The downtown area has the largest number of independent small businesses in the city. She consciously looks for locally owned businesses. When deciding where to place her business, the third thing she looked at was parking. THen addressing the city, she said that when they continue to throw roadblocks her way, they take away her motivation to stay here.

Councilmember Glasscock stated that this is a community answer, not a government one. The community has to come together to determine this decision. The community should be here to make sure that the government isn’t the problem.

Crespo – Made the suggestion for the community to weigh in, i.e. a vote. She asked if this would be possible?

Not really addressing the question, Layton talked about how he thinks this is helpful. HE spoke of people coming in with ideas and looking for the right solution. Conversation starts with that.

The Business owner from outside of the area mentioned that he travels internationally and validation is found in almost all businesses. Would validation be a possibility here.

Norton said that he hopes that we learn from this. He mentioned that the future meetings about parking will not allow Q&A.

A member of the audience spoke up and stated that what we are really talking about is who is paying. At the end of the day, cost is passed on to the customers. He believed hat not driving should be the default in a downtown area. He encourages people to walk, and use transit. Parking, especially free parking, kills business in downtown areas. He feels that we need to be bringing more people into downtown, without cars. He supports the paid parking plan as is.

Vice Mayor Ballard pointed out that Wichita has a huge stigma with our transit system and she Appreciated his comments. She recognized that it is hard to put a lot  into transit when we don’t have the ridership.

Councilmember Glasscock said that it is businesses or taxpayers. That is who pays for it.

Gandhi-Rue said that the reality is that some people drive across the street to each lunch at her restaurant. Wichita is sustained by our community and not by visitors. What customers want is parking.

The member of the audience spoke up again and said that If we want to make a great downtown. Paid parking is a step in that direction. I keep a car in downtown parking because I live downtown. I should have to pay to store my vehicle on public property.

Rathbun, addressing the member of the audience, said that he didn’t think that many people in our city share that sentiment.

Several comments were made at one and Rathbun spoke up and asked that the discussion be brought back to Crespo.

Crespo asked the city about validating parking.

Layton said that he would like to talk to the business owners about their feelings about that.

Gandhi-Rue was hesitant and said she would need to know the details.

Ray mentioned that it’s a little scary. The Car Park is not here (Located in Boise, ID). In order to consider validating tickets, she would like to have conversations with the Car Park folks.

Norton – Said the Car Park communication is terrible and referenced several attempts he has made to communicate with them through the years.

Councilmember Glasscock has deep concerns about outsourcing. HE said that city officials took an oath to uphold the constitution. Private businesses do not.

Vice Mayor Ballard said that any time we privatize anything is scary. We lose control. She has had lots of conversations about this issue and she would love to bring it in house, as long as we can handle it.

Mayor Wu mentioned that Car Park has had two agreements with the city prior to this one. She wants to know if they have met their agreement. What has been their track record?

Layton shared that the contract is different from what they have done before. In the past they basically operated the equipment and gathered revenue. There are mulitple sides to privatization. The city does not have an expertise to parking.  The question is, Do you want to start from scratch with our own staff? One important fact is to make sure you have a tight contract. The Council makes the fees as part of the contract. As far as Car Park’s Customer service, he has received complaints before and he addresses the issues.

A person from the audience asked if they bid this contract? When Layton answered no, the audience member was shocked by this and stated that this was poor business.

Crespo asked if there was a local contractor that could be used instead? But the comment from the city was that they did not believe someone in Wichita could fulfill this need.

Vice Mayor Ballard recognized that 9:00 am on Tuesdays is not a great time for people to attend meetings, but the Old Town Association meetings could be a good thing to get involved with.

Rathbun expressed uneasiness in this situation. When we see rising prices on everything, we put our trust in the government to take care of this for us. There is no reason to make people pay.

Councilmember Glasscock – We represent 400,000 people and beyond the people in attendance, the council  is hearing from lots of others. He asked that people continue to get involved. Mentioned the deficits the city is facing. These conversations are very important. He encouraged everyone to keep engaging.

Norton asked the city to promise that they would not pass something and then just drop it on the people.

Councilmember Glasscock responded ”100%”.

An Old Town Business owner asked what percentage of the money for parking does the city see?

Layton claimed that he did not know but would need to look into it.

An audience member said she would pay for parking to support small businesses. We need to make sure that they are reasonable parking fees. She suggested a way to allow for a “parking day pass” that could allow for people to park in multiple places throughout the day.

A local business owner in the audience asked about people who only park for 10 minutes.

Councilmember Glasscock, after whispering with Vice Mayor Ballard, responded that their nonanswer was because we think that is a good question and we will look into it.

An Eric Fisher Salon employee shared that her colleagues and customers get tickets because our parking lot is full. They had to hire a private security guard due to safety.

Crespo asked if the parking plan would affect the 2 hour spots?

The original plan would have, according to Layton.

A woman who will be moving into Downtown in a few weeks shared that she was told at one of the earlier meetings that she would have a space but it would be double sold. Because of this, she would potentially lose her space if it was extra busy in the garage..

A resident of Downtown took a mapping class at WSU and studied the area. There are 26 million square feet in the area but only 11 million that is taxed. Of the cities he has visited, all have paid parking. If you look at it in a historical context, downtown Wichita has been failing to compete with suburbia for 110 years. We need options that are viable, and then we will drive less.

Vice Mayor Ballard wanted to emphasize that this conversation is not over. She appreciates the engagement. She wanted to make sure people knew that they could make an appointment or call them.

Councilmember Glasscock shared that they are here because they are invested. They want to work together in trying to come up with good suggestions.

Mayor Wu emphasized the importance of community-wide conversation and expressed a strong desire for greater public engagement, noting that "engagement" is her word for the year. She appreciated the turnout and stressed the need for collaborative efforts to find better solutions. Wu acknowledged that the council had halted any immediate action, advising people to set aside concerns about a January 1st deadline for now. She pointed out that some community members have been involved in these discussions for the past four years. Wu reminded everyone that nothing is truly free—someone will have to bear the costs. With only limited resources available, the city faces tough decisions about priorities. Wu expressed a vision for a vibrant downtown where people live, eat, and shop, and committed to listening to all community members. She concluded by expressing deep gratitude for the small businesses that take risks and invest in the downtown area..

Layton suggested that a working group would be a good step in getting a plan for the future. He said he would love to have a person to serve as a point person and gather people together to create this group.

The meeting ended at 8:06 pm

 

 

 

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If you believe anything in these notes is inaccurate, please email us at documenters@citybureau.org with "Correction Request" in the subject line.