PODCAST TRANSCRIPT - EPISODE 279

FINDING (AND SELLING) YOUR ARTISTIC MAGIC WITH ASH KAPLAN

Please note: This transcript was created with the assistance of AI technology. While we strive for accuracy, the text may contain errors and should be verified against the original source for critical uses.

Annemie Tonken  0:04  

As you probably know, this can't be that hard. Is really focused on the business side of photography. And when I get questions about things like marketing or systems or anything else, I often say, you know, you already know how to make great photos. The photos are the thing that brings people to you, but then you have to do X, Y and Z to get them booked and give them a good experience and all that. And I stand by that 100% but that's not to say that your photos aren't a major part of your business and certainly of your marketing strategy, and that's why I'm really excited to introduce you to my guest today, Ashley Kaplan, who is a family photographer in the San Francisco area, who has built her business not on her amazing ability to capture people specifically, but because of her amazing ability to capture people with a sense of place, she started to notice this sort of trend, not only in what she loves, but also what her clients were asking for. And she's really leaned into it, and it has led to massive success. She is super booked out all the time, and has had so many photographers coming to her asking how she does what she does, that she has started to create education around that

Ash Kaplan  1:19  

her insights are so inspiring and yet pretty simple. When

Annemie Tonken  1:26  

you get down to it, as an artist yourself, you have the keys to unlocking and tapping into this set of strengths that you have that set you apart from any other photographer, and certainly from your clients abilities to you know, do it themselves, and whether Ash's specific way of doing that is right for you or not, I know you're going to find a lot of value in what she has to share. So without further ado, I will cue the music.

Intro:

Welcome to this can't be that hard. My name is Annemie tonken. Tonken and I help photographers run profitable, sustainable businesses that they love. Each week on the podcast, I cover simple, actionable strategies and systems that photographers at every level of experience can use to earn more money in a more sustainable way. Running a photography business doesn't have to be that hard, you can do it, and I can show you how. Ashley Kaplan, welcome to this can't be that hard. I am super excited to have you on the show and to see your face. It has been a while. How have you been?

Speaker 2  2:34  

It is so nice to be here. I've been pretty well, and I'm super happy to see you as well.

Annemie Tonken  2:38  

This is a fun topic and sort of a departure from what I normally do. You know, everything around here tends to be like business, business, business, and I love that what we're talking about today is still business, very much so, but sort of focuses on the artistic side of business and how we get back to the roots of like when all is said and done with all the marketing strategies and all the systems and everything else we are artists, and part of what a big part of what attracts people to our work is the feeling that it evokes, and the sort of the art that gives someone a reason to want photos in the first place. So I think this is going to be great now as a little bit of backstory We met through the family narrative, and so that's been a fun journey. It's been really fun to kind of since that time, watch you step into this role of mentor, which is wonderful because your work is so beautiful. And I just love that you're out there, kind of putting this out in the world. Thank you so much. Of course, of course. So as I go blathering on, let me pause and have you introduce yourself, talk a little bit about your photography story, and then yeah, kind of give us the backstory on how you came to be in this position of mentorship and and your angle on the art of photography.

Speaker 2  3:59  

Okay, how far back do you want me to go with photography? Because it began when I was a kid. Yeah, I took pictures when I was a little kid. It's like, long been a hobby for me. I didn't actually take a photography class till I was in college, but as soon as I did, I knew this is like, Oh, this is my thing. I loved it. But I was at a small liberal arts school that didn't have a photography major, and like, actually, there wasn't the world of online education that there is now, and so I couldn't imagine the business as a photographer like that didn't exist in my world of possibilities. So I was just a hobbyist for a long time, and it was overlapping with a lot of my academic and professional work. So like, my undergraduate and graduate thesis projects were connected to photography, and then I became a public school teacher, and photography was also a part of that. Like I taught an elective in photography, but again, I was like, I couldn't figure out that this is my true calling until I had my daughter. So fast forward to 2013 my daughter was born, and I looked at the cost of childcare, and I was like, Oh, it's my entire salary. And so it just didn't make sense to work like I was working 50 or 60 hours a week, and so I decided to stay home, and simultaneously I was learning how to be a portrait photographer, because I had a kid, and I was like obsession documenting her ever changing stages and a piece to note. Prior to having my daughter, I didn't actually take a lot of pictures of people. I took a lot of pictures, but like, I was photographing travel scenes, I was photographing nature. I did a lot of landscape work. I was really like getting the pulse of a place more than portraits. And so when my daughter was born, I was like doing online education and trying to learn how to be a portrait photographer. And so it my business sort of began as a side hustle. I was like, home with my daughter, and I wanted to earn some money for my family, and it was like learning how to be a portrait photographer, but the settings are so different, and so, like, it was a steep learning curve at first, and then my friends would ask me to take their pictures, and then their friends. And so by the time my daughter was two, I launched my business officially, and that was in 2016

Annemie Tonken  6:19  

amazing. So I love that your story kind of straddles the two major versions of the story that you hear out there, right? It's like the my version, which was fully the mom with the camera thing. I, like, got my first camera, my first real camera, when my older son was born, and then, like, the rest is history, left an entirely different field. And then there's the photographer who's like, I had my first camera when I was three years old, and it's been that ever since. So it's fun that your story ends those two I'm dying to know. So was your were your undergraduate and graduate thesis projects related to education? So

Speaker 2  7:00  

my undergraduate project, I was in the Honors Program, and so we had to do just like it was, a very open ended project. And so I had lived in Ireland my junior year, and so I did a project on the Irish conflict, and I had taken a ton of street photography while I was there, and so I like built this installation that had kind of a media presentation of both sides of the conflict, so they'd be talking about the same story, but just like two different perspectives. And then I, like, built this structure where, like, there were some of the murals that you'd see in each of the different with my art, my photography from both sides. Because, like, you go down one street and, like, on the walls would be history written, written one way, and then go down like two blocks away, and it would be a very different history written on the wall. So I love street art. I love mural art. I'm, like, really interested in the way that people tell their stories and their community histories through art. So that's what my undergraduate project was on. So it had some of my art in it. And then my master's thesis, I was getting my master's degree in international and multicultural education, and so I taught a course, I designed and taught a course called photography for social change, and it integrated, sort of like looking at the civil rights movement and art as a vehicle for social change and a youth participatory action research project where my students, like documented their lives, and we would reflect on those images and look for like themes that connected all of them. And then we did an art installation at the end, and I also taught a photography class as an elective at the school that I worked at. Amazing.

Annemie Tonken  8:35  

I love this because, and I didn't know any of that and that, I'm thrilled that it underlines exactly, sort of where I see this story kind of brewing and how it was going. So talk a little bit about your beginnings as a portrait photographer. And you know you were, like active there in the dawn of online education. And I know I remember what was being taught at that time, obviously, you came to it from a different perspective than I did, because I didn't know anything about photography, so I was kind of just like, sure tell me what to do, and I'll just do that. You had your own voice as a photographer already, but it was in a totally different kind of area of photography. How did that work? When I

Speaker 2  9:19  

was taking my client sets of photographs. I realized when I would look at their work like really made my heart sing, and those were always environmental portraits. Now I wasn't like deliberately taking them. It was just kind of how my eyes saw moments in this in the session. Now, my clients would get the close up traditional portrait. They would get lots of lifestyle, snuggly, fun, playful images, but I would also offer them some sort of pullbacks that I call wide angle environmental portraits. And those were my favorites. And I started booking clients that would talk about those images, and they would talk about how that's what drew them to my work, that they loved the close up stuff too, but like, they really wanted this piece of custom artwork of their family in a place that was very special to them. And so what I loved taking then began to attract the clients that I wanted. Again, it turned into this, like, beautiful cyclical thing where I was, like, getting to take more of what I loved, and then clients would wait for that. Like I sometimes have clients that come to me and my schedule is booked out, and I try to refer them to some of my mentees, but they'll wait because they have a specific vision of what they want for their family photographs, and they would rather, like not have the holiday set, but like, get it in May and have me take those images for them. And so I think it's like a really unique piece that I offer my clients. It's like, sort of think of it as like a bonus to a family photography, the normal session, but then, like the fun extra piece that is sort of unique, that I think helps my work stand out.

Annemie Tonken  10:56  

Yeah, definitely. Well, so was there, it sounds like over time you started to notice, you know, Oh, I love this. And this is what people are starting to ask for. Do you have any was there like a moment when you were like, Oh, this is what I do, or where you really put the language of environmental portraits to this more started doing that more intentionally.

Speaker 2  11:20  

Yeah, so environmental portraits just came to be the thing that my artwork was most known for, and what I most liked to create. And I started to use that language because it felt like the most appropriate I get that a lot of folks don't think of environmental portraits as what I do, because I think historically, it's been used for people in like their office space or workspace, kind of a story of people, like a portrait, but within, mostly, I've seen them in a work context. But I use the term more broadly. I think it's any image that tell the story of an intersection of a person and a place, or multiple people in a place where there's some sort of interaction or story thread that runs between them, and I it naturally emerged as something I was doing, and I also started to feel like it was really important, and it's what drove me to design my course, because I think it's something that's just not talked about enough In our line of work. Like, if you imagine any other art form, like, let's talk about movies or novels or theater production, so much attention is given to the setting, right? Like that enriches the story. It is. It's an integral part of the story. Like, you can't have the story without the main characters, obviously. But like, there's a whole thread of storytelling that exists within location and backdrop, sure, and I don't think it's talked about that much in our line of work. Like people will talk about a pretty location, or talk about, you know, shooting at Golden Hour, but there's so much more there that I think is just getting left out or not intentionally bring being brought into portrait photography, and I think there's a huge window of opportunity for photographers to create more meaningful work, because I think that is what it comes down to. Like on the business side, for example, I did $50,000 in bookings in one week, sending it to just my returning client list. Like my clients come back to me, and they send their people to me, and so I don't put any money into marketing my business, the photography element of it. And so I've created something that my clients love and they like, tell their people about it, and it's sort of like self fulfilling in that way. So it's awesome. And I think the pieces, there's a ton of meaning that maybe people don't go out, like, looking like, Oh, I really want the story of our neighborhood or house or whatever, but those details actually really matter, and they especially matter time, yeah, I think sometimes we don't, like, think about like, Oh, this is my, like, seven year old's room, and it's going to be gone in Five years. It's going to look totally different. And I'm going to want every detail from this room, like, I'm going to want to remember that in this space, for example. Or I'm going to want to remember the fairy garden that's like, two doors down from our house that, like, right? That really annoys me, because it makes us 10 minutes late everywhere. But it's going to be this tremendous memory of, like, my toddler stopping and like, playing with the rocks and the glitter and this, you know, little details like that, I think are so important. And so that's really a piece of what drives what I'm trying to do as an artist. Yeah,

Annemie Tonken  14:31  

we moved around a lot when I was a kid, until I was 10. So we lived in five or six different places, and when I was in my early 20s. I went back to the place that we had lived right before we sort of landed, and I was able to go into my old the house that we lived in. And I remember so clearly getting like a gut punch from the wallpaper in my room, which hadn't been changed, and it was like I had totally forgotten it or whatever. But then it came, you know, immediately back and obviously being in a space and having that whole weird experience of, like, everything seems so small and but the the next best thing certainly is being able to revisit that. So I, you know, I think it's certainly as parents trying to document the sort of fleeting nature of the things that our kids are into and whatever, it's also ultimately important to the kids themselves, once they reach a certain age, those memories are lurking somewhere in their brains as well. And I have an eye on that, certainly in my portraiture. You know, I like shooting in people's homes because of that reason, because I do think that it has this sort of baked in sense of place and intimacy and all that sort of stuff. But I love that you take it a step further and have those portraits that are your grander senses of place as the smaller ones. And for anyone who's listening, who might be like, what exactly are we talking about, obviously we're going to link Ash's website in the show notes. I very much encourage you to go check out her photographs, because you will instantly be like, Oh yes, and then you'll sign up to be on her waiting list for portraits, because they are just that good. So now that you have started to kind of codify this certainly in your in your own business, but for so that you can teach it to other people as well. Talk to me a little bit about what it is that you're looking for like, you know, I don't have a fancy house at all. And if you were to come to my town, and, you know, I'm not saying I know that you're working primarily in or in and around the Bay Area, but would you say, Okay, we're going to shoot at your house, but let's also explore some other options around and then, yeah, is there? What is the process there?

Speaker 2  16:53  

Yeah, that's a great question. I am in conversation with my clients, and because my clients follow me on social media, they have a sense of what I do right, like they sure they're they're already primed, like my clients are thinking about location before I even initiate the conversation. Usually, for my returning clients or clients that come to me, they often have a pretty good sense of where they want to have a session, because it's like integrated in my style, that location matters, but I initiate the conversation as soon, as soon as somebody has booked a session in the like after after booking email, one of the things that I'm talking about this location, and I mentioned that I'm I would love to take photographs at a place that's meaningful for their family, so whatever is the backdrop to their life right now that would be the most logical place for us to have our session, and that I'm open to any places that are meaningful to them, because I really will do a session almost anywhere. But I also link a blog post where I have like, 20 or five different locations that I shoot at often that I mentioned, and so that's usually where the conversation starts, and then in their questionnaire, they'll select the location that they want. Often, people have a sense of where they want to have the session. Sometimes people will have just seen images in my portfolio and they're like, we want to do our location there. I live in a pretty diverse area. A lot of people come from around the world to, like, live and work in the Bay Area, but it might not be there forever home. So like, there's like the obvious Golden Gate Bridge, which often people from, like the periphery the Greater Bay Area, want that in their images, or if they're here for a temporary period, but not people that live here long term, usually they'll do like, one session with the bridge and then, like others, not so much, but yeah, my my families tend to like exploring out in nature, and so we go to different locations. Every year. I have photographed at like, weird places, like, there's a boating club where people like to swim in the without wetsuits, which is freezing. And there's like a dolphin club. And one of my returning clients was like, let's do a session at the dolphin club. Like, great. I love that idea. So, like, there's all sorts of quirky places that are where people's lives exist. That's really the main thing I'm looking for. Like, this place that's meaningful. Where do you actually go? Where does family life take place? That's where I want to do our session. But I don't have, like, we have to do our session here, it's literally like, I will go anywhere and do a session. So meaning is the most important thing. And then I'm also looking at like, if we're going to a location that doesn't have a specific personal meaning to my clients, but outside their family, like goes to beaches or parks or hiking, then I'm looking for the story, the interrelationship between people and the natural world. I'm like very, you probably see it in my work. I'm very inspired by nature, and so I'm looking at a larger story of belonging, of like people and the natural world. It's like a little form of activism for me, where I really want people to see nature, but like to see us as part of nature. And when I create, like, a really awe inspiring image of a waterfall or a redwood forest and like we're just like tiny people in and among it, I'm hoping that it inspires this sense of like, interconnection and responsibility for our beautiful earth that we get to call home. And so that's a piece of it. And then I also get a lot of questions about, like, well, we don't live in the San Francisco Bay area. There's not epic backdrops where I live, and I get that. And so I think that there's just a matter of also just adding beauty into your images. And I think you can do that anywhere. And the elements of like composition and design. You can look at any location and find interesting leading lines, or you can find or you can find scale. You can create scale in your images. And so that's another piece I'm looking for that more artistic value and beauty into my images, just by the way, I'm shooting them, and paying attention to what's in the backdrop. And like using, I mean, you can use a sidewalk as, like interest. I mean, you can create interesting lines and textures or framing, if, if you're just looking for those sorts of things, and that's what I try to do,

Annemie Tonken  21:15  

yeah, and to bring it back sort of to the business side of things. What I think you're demonstrating here, and the testament of the fact that you're as booked out as you are, and that you've, you know, been able to build this very successful business on the back of this is that, especially in this day and age where everybody's got a pretty good camera in their pocket that they're carrying around, and everything else, obviously, being able to catch really tight connections and being able to edit photos. Well, you know, there's several things that photographers have that maybe the average everyday person with a camera is not able to replicate perfectly. But when you take that to the next level and you say, here's a scene that you are perfectly familiar with, because it's somewhat iconic in our town or city or whatever, you know, location. So everybody knows this, but I'm showing it to you in a way that, like, blows your mind. And there's this family that's in that, and then they get that on their wall show showcasing, like, you know, a thing that they wouldn't be able to replicate if they tried. That is the sort of thing where, if somebody's willing to open up their wallet and say, yep, that's worth more than just the cheapest photographer I can find, or even, like, another expensive photographer I want you, I'm going to be on your wait list for several months. So I think that that is like an ace in your hand when you can offer something that other people can't figure out. Whether that's what you're doing, whether it's like very, you know, cool or extensive lighting techniques. I mean, there's like that this kind of differentiation shows up, certainly in photographers businesses, but I I love what you're saying about this isn't unique, certainly to San Francisco or places with epic backgrounds. I I feel like I always have a little bit of jealousy of my West Coast friends, just because I feel like the quality of light is so spectacular on the West Coast. East Coast, I'm central North Carolina. It's different, but it is I drive around, and it's like there are certain sort of iconic scenes around here that I always think, like, if I moved away from here, I would miss this. Yeah, we have these, you know, big stands of tall pines. Oftentimes, they are the backdrop behind, like, either a cornfield or like a tobacco field. There's lots of tobacco fields around here which are beautiful, yeah. And again, they are so true to this place. My only, the only thing that I would want to add is the sound of, like cicadas at night, because it's so loud here, yeah? But anyway, I don't mean that's a sidebar, but I do that thinking about that sort of thing and leaning into your unique ability as an artist to capture that for your clients, and then highlighting that can be a really pro move in the marketing department.

Speaker 2  24:13  

Yeah, and I'm not trying to teach people to replicate exactly what I'm doing when I am teaching this class or mentoring. And teaching them a way of seeing the world, sure, that is more multi dimensional, right? I think, like, a lot of the education around portrait photography is really about, like, how do you take portraits and what are the prompts? And I'm just trying to add layers of storytelling is really what it's about. And I've seen a lot of my students like, take that information and do beautiful things that I couldn't create, right? It's like, but they've, they've given more intention to the, yeah, the fuller storyline and that it's about for me, and our inspiration

Annemie Tonken  24:51  

shows through too. I mean, I think that when we are excited about the photos that we're making, it are it just like bleeds into our clients and then also potential clients. There's definitely a difference out there between kind of cranking out the work and doing something that inspires you. So even even if you're like, I'm my marketing is good. I've got all the clients I need, but I'm kind of stagnating in what I'm doing every day, finding something this or something like it, that you can kind of nerd out on and get really re inspired in your photography. I mean, it's inspiring just to talk about it, much less to go out and do it. Yeah, it's true.

Speaker 2  25:33  

I really love the work I create. And I also think a piece of attracting a high end client is that they really think of me as an artist, yeah, and that's how they describe me. So they are supporting a living, breathing artist. And they, my clients, tend to invest in artwork, right? And so, like, when I go into their homes, I'm like, Oh, they like, they support artists, and this is a big part of what they're visually drawn to. And so it's sort of it like feeds into that where they like, really do think that they're not, I don't want to say just hiring a photographer, but like they're create. They're hiring somebody to create custom artwork for their family. And I'm pretty certain that many of my clients think of me in that way. And so I think it is really a way to like, differentiate what you're offering to your clients, that you are creating something singular for them, they like, they want you for what your special magic is. And I think all of us have that actually. I think that the way that we see the world like, that's our unique gift, right? Our experiences, our art, our creativity, it's, it's ours. And so when we find the clients that want what we have to offer, they're like, they're going to hire us for the unique thing that we do that somebody else can't replicate that easily in the same way that we do it.

Annemie Tonken  26:46  

So cool. I imagine that there are a lot of people out there listening who a want to go see your work, and B are going to, especially once they see your work, want to learn more about how you do, what you do, how you help other people learn how to do something similar in their own businesses. Tell everybody where they can find you.

Speaker 2  27:05  

Awesome. Well, I am on Instagram a lot my handles at Ashley underscore Kaplan underscore photography, so definitely like say hi to me there. I love, love hanging out with a photography community on Instagram, and then Ashley Kaplan photography.com backslash education, that will bring you my education page where I have information about one on one mentorship. I have a course that I teach a sense of place. We talked about that today. And I also co host a small intimate workshop called Finding heart with Iris who and so there's information on that there as well. There's some like freebies that you can download. So I recommend that you go to Ashley Kaplan photography, backslash education, and that can come to directions depending on what you're interested in. Amazing.

Annemie Tonken  27:52  

So good. Well, it has been a pleasure reconnecting with you, and honestly, I It's like I've seen your work, I've admired your work, but hearing a little bit more machinations on how it all kind of came to be and how you think about it these days. It really is inspiring. So thank you. Oh, you're welcome. Thank

Unknown Speaker  28:09  

you so much for having me here.

Annemie Tonken  28:10  

I've loved chatting with you today.

Outro:

Well, that's it for this week's episode of This can't be that hard. I'll be back Same time, same place next week. In the meantime, you can find more information about this episode, along with all the relevant links, notes and downloads. This can't be that hard.com/learn. If you like the podcast, be sure to hit the subscribe button. Even better, share the love by leaving a review in iTunes. And as always, thanks so much for joining me. I hope you have a fantastic week. You

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