Tara Seshan, July 2024 Please comment all over this doc, especially if you disagree! I figure it’d be useful for others to share what I’ve learned over the past couple months, but I love getting my assumptions checked. Correct anything I’ve missed, misunderstood, etc. Note: I’ve shut off doc comments because weird spam comments started to emerge! Nevertheless, it’s really cool that you’re reading this long doc. If you have thoughts, you can email me at taraseshan@gmail.com. :) |
There was an era where “no-code” and “low–code” platforms were everywhere. However, we’re now looking at a graveyard. Many tiny startups died, but even more notable is the “failure to launch” of the teenagers, the highly capitalized tool builders that cannot get out of the teenage slumps and become transformative companies. Those who can rise manage to do so via product lead growth, and quickly hit a wall once they try to expand their revenue to non-PLG customers[a]. It’s a way to become a mid-size company, but not a clear way to become a generational company. The advent of new technology might change the game: as AI becomes more widespread, it will be easier to write code (everyone is a developer)[b][c][d][e]. This makes it easier for a lot more people to build tools. Perhaps these types of platforms can really take off and deliver on their original promise: make it possible for everyone to build custom software, invalidating the need to spend on ill–fitting highly opinionated vertical software tools. You can imagine these platforms, once obsessed with creating the best drag and drop editors, should shift their value to the following:
For a functional focus, the better way to build is to create a system of record with “internal tool builders” as a “customization” feature. For a vertical focus, the company must be very opinionated about the workflows, tools, or underlying data enrichment that is offered via their platform that isn’t available in a non-verticalized tool. [f] Recent updates:
|
In 2021, it seemed like there was a new low-code-no-code (LCNC) internal tool builder everywhere you turned. You can define an LCNC tool builder as, “methods of designing and developing apps using intuitive drag and drop tools that reduce or eliminate the need for traditional developers who write code.[i][j][k]” These businesses commanded sky-high valuations – Retool at $3.5B – and were viewed as incredibly promising places to work and invest.
In 2024, it feels like the tide has turned. Retool has slowed in revenue growth and has been shedding great people at an alarming clip. The slowing revenue growth seems like a feature of the market over mismanagement of the business: none of the other LCNC companies has been a breakout success.
However, there is some reason to be optimistic: public market competitors like Palantir, Microsoft’s PowerApps, and SFDC’s Force.com and Lightning Platform are doing well, and have specifically called out their LCNC tools as a part of their AI success stories[1]. Anecdotally, my friends at Watershed talk about the rapid uptake of Dust.tt (AI Retool) within the company, buoyed by the desire to use AI and gain leverage from automating their work.
Could the AI push – forcing every company to think about how it can improve its product or its operations via the new technology – give this sector a new lease on life? Or is the internal tools market an anemic market, doomed to remain fractured and “services oriented” for the near future?
Fig 1. Watch out designers, I’m coming for your job. Sorry this is ugly. I think it illustrates the point that AI could move out the curve here.
I spent 3 months and approximately 80 hours in conversation[l] with users, competitors, and adjacent actors in this space.
What could an amazing LCNC tool building platform look like?
Imagine that I work as the IT leader at a vertical SaaS series C startup. As the company grows and scales, it feels like we never have enough engineering bandwidth to solve all of the IT, operations and GTM teams’ problems. While the tools in Salesforce, Gong, Notion, or even Marketo can help, the teams really want something custom that might not actually justify a full SaaS purchase. For example, the Security team would like a way to build an intake tool for security RFPs and custom enterprise user requests. They aren’t really frontend people, and building something like this isn’t easy!
As the IT director, I am worried about three things:
I buy the Starsmith[2] platform, a tool builder that makes it easy to spin up, remix, and share AI-enabled internal apps. Unlike Retool, Starsmith makes it easy for everyone in the organization to build AI-powered apps, not just developers. Today, we don’t really think about AI internal tools outside of the silos of specific functions. But with Starsmith, the security team can build an agent to go through all of the RFPs and provide automated responses. The ops team can build a tool that serves as a “queue” for all of the data cleaning requests they get. The data science team can use it to prototype LLM based analyses, like how to align user-submitted schemas with the company’s schema. The product team builds a user-feedback ingestion and summarization tool.
It’s easy for teams to find new Starsmith use-cases because they’re simply able to type in their desired tool in natural language (“I need a tool to help with ingesting user feedback from the support organization around this new beta product, it should integrate with Zendesk, and then allow PM/Eng/Design to sift through auto-categorized data for insight.”[m][n][o]) The template gallery is wide and specific – Starsmith can match the natural language description with a customized template very easily. The additional customization by the human involved can be pretty minimal. Any team that can’t “get budget” for a new SaaS tool hears my new favorite saying: “Could you build it in Starsmith?” [p]
These apps are shared in a gallery that everyone in the organization can access – apps inherit permissions and data visibility from the company’s central auth system. Managers love it, because they can see analytics on the apps and on individual users. The support managers are especially happy to have that visibility! New app builders love remixing apps that others have built. For example, adding little tweaks for the Europe sales team versus the US sales team is a favorite “remix.”
The killer features of Starsmith are:
Does the vision sound good? Yes? No? Maybe you’re already seeing the flaws!
I sure didn’t! It took a lot of conversations before I concluded that the market was just not interested in buying a “tool builder” instead of buying a “customizable specific tool that solves my needs.” Tool builders are not vitamins or painkillers – they’re the willow tree that has salicylic acid in the bark.[s][t] You have to chew it a bunch and apply it to the right part of your body before it can be used for pain relief!
My conclusions from that investigation are:
I think there are two types of “tool builders” that can become $10B+ companies:
The vertical specific tool builder can command a higher price than the more domain agnostic tools. This is because it can come in with a very specific set of problems and data sources that it already solves, extremely tailored to the company in question. It still might require implementation effort, but finding the right implementers and partners should be easier. For example, a trucking focused Retool competitor might be able to target transportation and logistics consultants, and then have 5 “default modules” it deploys at every business, enriched by some proprietary source of data. The differentiation story against PowerApps will be cleaner than Retool’s story, akin to how Watershed can tell a differentiation story against Salesforce or Microsoft (“SFDC and MSFT consider this a tiny fraction of their business and will never put their best people on it. We’re entirely focused on this domain with the best people, are paying attention to the latest developments, and are perfectly compatible with SFDC and MSFT!”)
The system of record with a tool building platform could be interesting – “provide opinionated software, where the opinions are easily unwound.” For example, an issue that SHV described with Greenhouse was “its data model doesn’t allow an engineer to be a candidate for two jobs at once.” This is because today, Greenhouse has an opinionated data model that users cannot change. However, if Greenhouse made that data model modifiable, like Salesforce’s data model, SHV might have kept using GH. In a world where GH builds an LCNC tool like Salesforce’s tool, a user like SHV could tweak the one or two aspects of the Greenhouse data model that they disagree with, but leave everything else the same. And if AI makes it even simpler for Greenhouse to add that functionality (remember that SFDC had to invent a whole programming language), great, they won’t have to build out such an exclusive consulting network.
I spoke to someone at Netflix who described their use of Airtable – they use Airtable for tracking content production, building essentially a new type of system of record for all the little images and assets associated with a title. I could imagine flexible tools like this (custom to the very specific workflow of the company, but a system of record nonetheless) actually benefiting from some audience specificity. In this case, I could imagine the use case being “marketing ops teams” (that is a broad definition!) that would enable these teams to build workflows in a way they haven’t been able to until now. You can imagine that a lot of the macro-writing here can be entirely abstracted by AI.
It’s not a system of record, but Slack’s “automation” functionality hints at LCNC potential. In many of our user interviews, we found that the nontechnical people within the company relied on Slack automations to do things like offboard large customers. Slack’s “automations” allow you to build tools that involve messaging people within your company, moving content into Slack, or customizing your channels. They could push this opportunity much further, if they invest in it.
Palantir is the most excellent example of this combination: Initially, the vast majority of engineering effort within Palantir was in the handling of data for large government organizations and enterprises. Palantir was opinionated about these choices, and sent Forward Deployed Engineers into these organizations as consultants in order to specify the “ontology” of the data. Once the data stack and data model were clear, Palantir added a product layer on top of the data stack This included a UI builder (Slate), a graph viewer of the ETL (Monocle), a report builder, RBAC, a time series processor, data lineage, versioning of the code, a web-editor and so on. Over time, it became clear that Palantir was a “database with a low-code tool builder on top.” It’s a full solution for a very specific vertical of customers. And it’s paying off. Palantir is currently valued at $53B[7].
As far as my next steps go[bm][bn][bo], I can’t imagine building a vertical specific version of Retool personally, because I’m not moved by a particular vertical. If I decide to build another type of platform (an HR platform, or a comms platform, or something entirely different!) I think it’d be best to approach it from the angle of “what is the platform and why is it needed” instead of from the LCNC angle.
The whole point of personal computers was to enable personalized software. The vision of the computing pioneers of the 60s was that if the application didn’t do what you want, it would be easy to tweak or augment it to suit your purposes.
However, every development in software seems to be pushing us in the opposite direction:
To quote Patrick Collison, “Emacs, Smalltalk, Genera, and VBA embody a vision of malleable end-user computing: if the application doesn't do what you want, it's easy to tweak or augment it to suit your purposes. Today, however, end-user software increasingly operates behind bulletproof glass. This is especially true in the growth areas: mobile and web apps. Furthermore, not only is it getting harder to manipulate the application logic itself, but it's also becoming harder to directly manipulate your data. With Visual Basic, you can readily write a quick script to calculate some calendar analytics with Outlook. To do the same with Google Calendar is a very laborious chore.
End-user computing is becoming less a bicycle and more a monorail for the mind.
As a consequence, we need ever more domain-specific software. Rather than use universal tools for handling charts and for manipulating data, we tend to use separate analytics packages for every conceivable application. This is not all bad. Domain-specific tools can maximize ease-of-use and help amortize the cost of complex, specialized functionality. Sublime's built-in ⌘-T works better than every third-party Emacs package. Still, despite these benefits, the popularity of macros and browser plugins strongly suggest that users are smart and want more control.
Should we just give up on our earlier visions of empowered users or is a better equilibrium possible?”
This little bit of tailoring is especially justifiable in the context of an enterprise, when you can measure the incremental value that this tailoring would give you.
There are three types of LCNC platforms:
But what kinds of companies buy and use these tools in the first place? Companies that invest in customized internal tools must be companies that think in the long term. They are “deepest growth” companies who see the potential for internal tools to be a way to compound differentiation or further culture. They need to be companies that expect to change so much and scale so quickly that only something custom will do.
This can include early stage, high growth startups (maybe Doordash in 2018?), or big profitable public companies, or big financial firms (Goldman, etc.) Companies that are “deepest growth” companies see custom tooling as a big advantage.
Here’s an example of a brand new startup that is considering a custom stack:
What are “deepest growth” companies? Quoting Byrne Hobart’s framework:
In 1972, SAP was started as a software consulting company with two core innovations: 1) outputs would be presented on a screen instead of printed out on a tape at the end of the day 2) everything was built atop existing, extensible software rather than built from scratch for each new client.
After two years of running a purely consulting oriented business, SAP released their financial accounting software in 1974. Their intention was to build additional software modules on top of this first accounting module that would use the same underlying database. This was revolutionary at the time.
Salesforce took that idea even further. They started as a CRM with an opinionated view of the data model for managing your contacts, leads, and opportunities. But when they started expanding to customers that had different requirements for their data model, they realized that customizability with (little to no code) would be vital to success. In Salesforce, a user could create new tables with custom columns and relationships, complete with data types and constraints. But it turned out that just customizing the db wasn’t enough. They then launched their App Exchange six years later. The idea was that even though SFDC’s product was primarily this database for sales, the value that “kept the user in the product” was from the infinitely customizable apps built atop that database and core platform. Salesforce even followed up on the App Exchange launch with the launch of Apex, the Lambda-like service that allowed Salesforce users to write arbitrary code, and VisualForce, a component based UI framework, which allowed users to build UIs compatible with the rest of the Salesforce app. They launched Force.com in 2008, which made it easy for developers to launch new apps on SFDC without worrying about infrastructure. Salesforce’s value went beyond just infra, they also provided valuable distribution in the App Exchange.
These companies didn’t market themselves as “all purpose tool builders” even if that is what they were in practice. Even today, Salesforce doesn’t sell itself as a “low code tool builder.” It’s a CRM whose killer feature is flexibility. This is also true for SAP: it’s an ERP, or a supply chain solution, that happens to be modular and configurable. It just so happens that once they get in the door, teams start using them to build new tools outside of the original use case. This is also true for other big Systems of Record outside of ERP and CRM – your HRMS, like Workday, also prides itself on being an opinionated database with highly modular and configurable “apps” on top. Your IT system of record (ServiceNow) is also an opinionated database with a configurable app platform on top.
Palantir arrived on the scene in 2003. It originally sold itself as a data tool. It wasn’t head-to-head competing with an existing software category, like ERP or CRM. Instead, Palantir functioned as a consulting company for large government agencies who had very rigorous security and political standards. They framed their value as collecting and consolidating the data within these organizations and creating a custom ontology. Like SAP, their differentiation was in their own operations: they eventually could build from their platform’s components instead of building something fresh each time. The vast majority of engineering effort within Palantir was in the handling of data – data pipelines. Then, they added a product layer on top of the data stack to make Spark work in an enterprise environment. This included a UI builder (Slate), a graph viewer of the ETL (Monocle), a report builder, RBAC, a time series processor, data lineage, versioning of the code, a web-editor and so on. Over time, it became clear that Palantir was a “database with a low-code tool builder on top” just like all of the other companies. Palantir’s lowest contract size is $2M, and it’s currently valued at $53B. Palantir is often sold via Accenture, Deloitte, and other consulting firms.
The latest entrant to the “low code tool building” space is from the Palantir lineage: it’s an open secret that Retool is a clone of Slate. Retool has reportedly hit ~$75M in revenue and stalled there, despite a valuation of $3.2B. They are having a hard time expanding outside of their existing target market of high-budget software companies and product lead growth with startups: notable users are Coinbase, Doordash, and Stripe. Retool has not landed the motion that is necessary for a low code tool building company: 1) an opinionated view on the data that will be the “foundation” for the tool building workflows 2) an implementation consulting arm to customize and build the first versions of the tool 3) a way to implement their solution in the cloud instead of “on prem.”
Most companies who sell a “low code tool building” product do so as a part of a broader “system of record” (database) offering. Companies like ServiceNow, SFDC, Microsoft, and SAP have large businesses in the “low code tool building” space, but it’s unclear how many of their users are paying for the feature simply because it’s a part of using the CRM or ERP product.
The two exceptions to that rule are Palantir and Retool. Palantir has built a huge business combining the data products with low code tool building, but it’s worth noting that they sell to very specialized clients. Retool is one of the new independent companies in the tool building space, and primarily sells to competent software developers. They are still too small to serve as validation that a large market exists.
Microsoft Power Apps
Appian
Palantir
(SNOW) Streamlit
OutSystems
Mendix
Retool
Betty Blocks
Quick Base
Salesforce Lightning
Bubble
Adalo
Glide
Zapier
Directual
Appgyver
Backendless
Thunkable
Airtable Apps?
Kony
Skuid
Airplane
Superblocks
[1] A quote from MSFT’s 2024 Q2 earnings call: “More than 230,000 organizations have already used AI capabilities in Power Platform, up over 80% quarter-over-quarter.”
[2] This is a random name, just to use as a stand-in. You may have noticed, but I like star themed stuff.
[3] Placeholder for prominent consulting firm name. This is not the firm.
[4] I mean, there’s many reasons why revenue multiples for valuations are very different for software and consulting biz, guys!
[5] Rumor from my ex-Palantir Watershed friends :) Everything I have about companies I didn’t explicitly work for is rumors, guys!
[6] One of the smartest people/best SWEs I know in the world, fullstop, is a Palantir FDE. Guy could have done anything.
[7] At the time of writing!
[a]I think of Airtable as the canonical case of https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/plg-trap-oliver-jay/
[b]I think this is true only in the small. Once AI can write code in the large, we have AGI. So we can make small apps with AI, but there is an asymptote of complexity that we will not overcome in the short/medium term.
[c]So yeah, I don't think AI will save the teenage toolbuilders.
[d]This is fair, you kind of notice this in the Airtable code product. Where are those limits around complexity?
[e]Creating small, self-contained apps denovo: easy
Making changes to a small existing codebase: medium
Working in an existing codebase with its own structure, convention, and quirks: probably impossible to do anything other than solve small, localized bugs, tweak UI code or add fields to an API request or response format.
[f]reminds me of this https://www.wildworldofwork.org/p/ai-is-fast-automation-is-slow-can
app builder w/o system of record is just a cool layer of clothing w/o any ownership of the guts. Palantir understands this - they are the only company that understands this
[g]I wonder if Artifacts is an experiment, or an intentional bet on expanding into more B2B use-cases?
[h]I think as a paradigm it will become quite prevalent. Vercel, Github and OpenAI are all working on similar things. But like you say, the hard work will be in connecting it to all the other aspects of a system of record.
[i]The only people creating retool apps at my company are backend software engineers -- it's just a way to save time vs. writing frontend code. We've built a ton of mission-critical tools in retool, but in no way has retool allowed non-engineers to contribute.
[j]Do you still think this will be the case, given recent progress (esp. in reasoning?)
[k]I think recent progress will expand the frontier of what non-engineers can do, but developing large applications will still be limited by engineers who can bridge the lower-level details that AI can abstract away.
[l]does this minimize your expertise? you're so well-researched AND experienced using these tools in some really awesome orgs!
1 total reaction
Palmer Rampell reacted with ➕ at 2024-07-08 03:52 AM
[m]I think a huge challenge here is that the feasibility under current AI of seemingly-adjacent functionality varies wildly, and so the variance in quality of results is going to be massive. Some use cases will flourish, others will be complete duds, and very few people will be able to predict which is which. I guess that's fine if the time to evaluate Starsmith's output is very short, but if it's hard to tell the difference between "I just need to tweak and prompt-engineer a bit until it works" and "this has no hope," then this is going to be really hard to use.
[n]Yes I think that's very right -- it's really hard to teach people (and frankly, to teach myself) how to have the right intuitions here. @andrew.dumit@gmail.com suggested that this might be more teachable than I thought based on his experience with Dust at Watershed, but I'll let him weigh in!
[o]Fully agree that the capability amongst seemingly similar use cases can vary widely. The beauty of the highly customized software is that it’s so much easier to evaluate whether the output is good or not — the builder is the expert! If I think back to when I was building tools in healthtech, I couldn’t evaluate whether my output was great on my own. I developed some sense over time, but I always had to go check with one of the doctors, and often had to build a lengthy review process to test the variance.
As the tools become more valuable and high risk, there is definitely a need to build better evals. Yet, the vibe checking for “will this be useful to me” has actually been a lot faster in my experience than I expected when I watch others build new assistants in Dust. Even the current generation of AI is pretty consistent with broad abstract tasks like summarization and data extraction. The tweaking has mostly come down to getting the data format right and better specify the problem.
[p]Note – it is very underspecified 1) how this is possible 2) can I edit the code, if I am a dev? (yes) 3) how customizable is it?
[q]Maybe via merge.dev
[r]To my point about Zapier below, I think this is actually a non-trivial thing. Being able to easily overlay across all of these APIs and translate semantically between them (e.g. knowing how a particular human or customer is represented in N different systems) is potentially quite valuable. Some example use cases:
- Build a unified view of all of a support agent's activity
- Stripe Risk-team style taking action based on the results of a query
- Onboarding workflow automation (for employees, customers, etc.)
I also wonder if you could start to be more opinionated based on the set of systems you're integrating. For example, could you automate creation of all of a new employee's accounts as soon as they're added to Google Apps, file tasks for them in Linear to e.g. meet new coworkers for coffee, add them to team-specific recurring meetings, etc.?
That said, reading through the above, I am not convinced the TAM is massive.
[s]beating the metaphor to death!
[t]lol
[u]I've heard Ramp built a bunch of internal tools in the early days to help them on sales: finding the right leads, automating the personalized outbound, etc. Don't know the specifics, but it was interesting how much they built custom stuff in a space that seems to have a TON of off-the-shelf solutions
[v]resonant insight
[w]I think there is a fourth category here: tools that bridge between systems of record (perhaps these are a subset of developer productivity tools). Zapier makes $250m a year apparently, and while it won't give you a pretty UI, it will help Zendesk work with SFDC, etc. Zaps tend to be small and self-contained, which makes them a perfect target for AI-assisted development.
[x]In a similar vein, how would you classify Airtable or Notion in this hierarchy?
[y]IMO, Notion is more "document editor" and even "site builder" than it is tool builder -- it is less powerful than Excel, so I wouldn't even put it in this category of LCNC.
But Zapier is hard to categorize for me.
[z]If you're an enterprise buyer, you're getting proserve to get up and running anyway, so I think this only matters for folks mid-market and down.
[aa]TIL! I thought part of the Service Now value was that it was easier to customizer (I was wrong)
[ab]I bet Retool couldn't have "extended that far" either. This is a hyper dimensional space and somebody that is thinking beyond what the tool can do, will always want more
[ac]Interesting -- they ultimately used Retool for this, though they had to push Retool to do what they need.
If you're always thinking within the tool's capabilities, how do you evaluate whether the tool is the best way to solve a problem?
[ad]This is hard to pin down but here is how I think about it:
1. People have different levels of clarity on their requirements. "The email must have this text" vs "They should be notified"
2. The more clarity and "stubbornness" the less likely they are happy with the tool
3. This is less dependent on the problem domain (unless there is regulation) than on the person thinking about this.
The person that doesn't have the same level of clarity wings it and it is happy with the tool after the fact if they feel they were helped by it "how they meant". But person that had a list of requirements is happy proportionally to the number of requirements they hit
[ae]FWIW, I've seen an Airtable-based perf review app that hits many similar requirements to Stripe's (though I'm sure there are flavorful differences).
[af]as a developer, i always thought the killer feature of retool was deployment, integrations and sharing.
If it's easier to write code (everyone is a developer), maybe Retool will have to shift more of their value to the above three
[ag]Also if this is true, then really deep integrations (i.e. vertical specific retool) makes much more sense
[ah]I 100% agree!
[ai]To riff on this a bit: the "software development life cycle" stuff isn't solved in any of the LCNC tools. The current software best practices of source control, code review/pull requests, CI/CD, testing, feature flags, canary deployments, observability, etc. don't show up in LCNC tools. As complexity increases, you need those things more.
[aj]This resonates, and in my experience the key challenge between declarative and imperative programming paradigms.
Usually more power is expressed through new imperative primitives, once the declarative limits have been hit.
[ak]I'm inclined to ignore any quotes from programmers. Yes, if you want to program these tools get in your way
[al]That's a fair point -- the HR people at Stripe love Retool, and could even learn the JS necessary to use it. But I'm curious: retool sells itself to devs and for dev productivity.
[am]Yeah, and I think that is terrible marketing on their part
[an]I think it's more than just marketing: I think Retool as a product is supposed to be *for* developers, but that's also not where they have the most traction afaict
[ao]Funny, my mental model for PowerApps have always been Excel++
[ap]ooc has cloud based excel not taken off? i would have presumed that the many local copies problem has reduced over the last decade (esp for company critical processes)
[aq]i think this is just an OLD OLD school company (which, tbh, is the mode user of the MSFT suite!)
[ar]To what degree is this confounded by their distribution advantage? I think I may be saying the same thing as Kenneth.
[as]To me, Excel is the most popular LCNC. Another way to think about this is that "macros" are a feature that products with data (e.g., CRMs) end up having.
Notably, regardless of Salesforce's flexibility, nobody outside of the inner sanctum would build, say, an HR Calibrations app on top of Salesforce.
[at]"Every platform emerges from a product.
• The product is the primary use case.
• The platform is the secondary use case.
• Platforms have network effects, so as it grows, it eclipses the primary use case that got it going."
https://docs.google.com/document/d/1ptHfoKWn0xbNSJgdkH8_3z4PHLC_f36MutFTTRf14I0/edit
[au]like this insight
[av]==
[aw]First, design for the user to nail the primary use-cases, then design for emergence, to enable the long tail.
[ax]Nice
[ay]LLMs have been pretty transformative in my coding for getting past "activation energy." Even if you know how to start, having something knock out the template for you has felt like it makes further progress easier.
[az]Gives me flashbacks to the old days of web 2.0 and mashups!
[ba]Maybe this is something AI can help with -- auto-suggesting templates based on a natural language description of the problem.
1 total reaction
Palmer Rampell reacted with ➕ at 2024-07-08 21:51 PM
[bb]The other issue with no/low-code templates (pre AI, at least): in theory they are remixable, but in practice this is very difficult. Because they're not well "factored" (in a code sense), you kinda need to understand how the whole setup works to make anything but the smallest changes. (Oh, maybe that's what you mean by discoverable :))
[bc]I think this is the key. Data still matters, and with LLMs being so good at writing code in existing abstractions like React, we don't need another layer to write the actual application code (RIP no-code tools like Webflow), but we need auth + piping + integrations of data + LLMs on top that can generate front-ends in existing tools, and when something new comes around, the LLMs will genere that.
[bd]Underrated point I find
[be]Yes, in practice this was a huge part of the value that the early Airtable CSMs delivered for their enterprise customers
[bf]could retool just charge 10x more
[bg]i assume they're not for a reason!
[bh]== that the way this comes off is "bad pricing strategy" vs bad product
1 total reaction
Sebastian Bensusan reacted with ➕ at 2024-07-03 19:21 PM
[bi]ack, worth investigating why. let me ask some of our retool pals
[bj]FWIW my experience with their consultant network is that quality is low, and rates are outrageously high.
[bk]like this point a lot -- it rhymes with your CRM not low code tool idea above (SME consultant not jack of all trades tool builder)
[bl]Healthcare
[bm]Braindumping some thoughts:
- Retool & Airtable are very different, rooted in the fact that Retool is aimed at devs, and Airtable is explicitly aimed at non-devs.
- Airtable's more code-forward features (e.g. dev platform, scripting) struggled with adoption because most of the users don't know how to code.
- That said, the early adopters of Airtable were very creative and motivated in building what they/their teams needed. They were able to set up pretty sophisticated DB schemas and workflows to unblock themselves and their teams, often working around the product limitations in really creative ways.
- But this pool of early adopters dried up faster than we were expecting, I think.
- The most valuable ($) & sticky Airtable use cases were things that _didn't_ cleanly fit into any vertical tool or off-the-shelf system of record. E.g. Netflix's sprawling database that tracked all parts of an original production, from the shooting locations, local contractors that would be hired, costumes, etc.
- Airtable made ~2 key very general-purpose abstractions accessible to non-devs: relational data tables & forms. But struggled with the long-tail of arbitrary computation (formulas, scripting) and arbitrary UI (blocks, views). I think AI-generated code could be a game-changer here.
[bn]Following Kasra's lead and also brain-dumping a bit:
Some thoughts:
1. I don’t have data to back this up whatsoever, but I don’t think you can ignore Excel as the giant in this space. When teams want to solidify a process, that very often starts in Excel, and only sometimes, rarely, makes its way to IT-managed software. The “buyer” here is a random team lead who just wants to make their team more functional, and they sometimes have the budget at work to buy some SaaS tools, often without the buy-in from IT?
2. We’ve been at this (software) for 50+ years now, and we keep coming back to software being represented as text. The Excel exception somewhat supports the argument: the powerful “formulas” are text! A key distinction is how much flexibility the platform gives the user. (Figma and the design space is the one place where [software] engineering uses non-text-based tooling.) If your platform is AWS, you have 98% of the flexibility of anything that’s possible, and it kinda sucks if you’re building a blog or a small e-retail web site. If your platform is Google sheets, you have very little flexibility. A software-engineer focused framework like Rails gives you some guardrails (pun intended, thank you), and you can’t quite do everything, and you’re stuck with an ORM, but it’s pretty powerful. Vercel and Wordpress are somewhere on this multi-dimensional graph as well.
[bo]2. As others have pointed out, users who “know better” struggle with limitations that they might not appreciate (and, also, appreciate the elimination or outsourcing of some drudgery!). Streamlit is interesting because the folks wanting to share their interactive data tools have little interest in deployment. So: LLMs are good at text representations. Non-engineer end-users are decent at “local” code (e.g., a spreadsheet formula), but struggle with deployment, integration (both for authentication/authorization and also for interacting with other systems), and the vague thing that is software architecture. Is there space for an AI-guided, constrained framework?
val.town and Replit are super interesting in this space.
Monday and Asana are adjacent in various ways.
[bp]I was missing this in the section above thinking about it as a company vs just a tool that's possible
[bq]You can sort of divide this into "vertical tools exist but companies want to customize" (like HR, recruiting, task management, etc.) and "problem is too niche for vertical tools". In the latter case. There's a lot of internal tooling that maps onto an accidental process at some company that is pretty unique.
[br]that's a super good point.