You: thanks for coming, Rob!
Satir DeCuir is Online
SF Writer: An absolute pleasure.
You: Welcome everyone to a special Sunday edition of Sophrosyne's Saturday Salon,
You: meeting today along with the Extropia Book Club
You: if you're new here and would like to get on our events notice list, please IM me
Dizzy Banjo: hey gang
Extropia DaSilva: Hi Dizzy.
You: We've got a lot of amazing guests and big events ahead, so don't miss out!
You: Our guest today is legendary science fiction novelist Robert J. Sawyer -
Tolo Lucerne: /wish she would invite a Linden that we could all take turns strangling....
Dale Innis: Applause!!
You: Rob is the author of 17 novels, the latest of which, Rollback, is a finalist for the Hugo Award. He is a past president of the Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America and has won all of the field's top awards for science fiction, including the Nebula Award (for The Terminal Experiment), the Hugo Award (for Hominids) and the John W. Campbell Memorial Award (for Mindscan). He is also a three-time winner of the international Premio UPC de Ciencia Ficción, and was recently presented with the Toronto Public Library Celebrates Reading Award, which is one of Canada's top book-related honors.
SF Writer: (blush)
Vidal Tripsa giggles.
You: welocme, Rob!
beladona Memorial looks suitably impressed
Dale Innis: So where go you get all those CRAZY ideas?
SF Writer: Thank you!
Dale Innis: :)
Lincoln Beck is Online
Boc Cryotank: :)
SF Writer: Dale: the official answer is a post-office box in Schenectady.
You: W're going to run this like a regular Salon -
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol
Zha Ewry grins
Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
beladona Memorial eeps.
Zha Ewry: Retro answer
Alesia Markstein: I'm sure I've heard that somewhere before ...
You: I've got a few questions for Rob to start us off, and then we'll go to open discussion -
Zha Ewry: isn't it an e-mail address or web page these days?
Extropia DaSilva: Sci Fi writers: Known for imaging tech beyond the cutting edge but being unable to work out how to sit down in SL;)
beladona Memorial: well we have established that aliens run the post offic, neh?
Tolo Lucerne: /lol, buys them at Wegmans
SF Writer: It's the official Science Fiction and Fantasy Writers of America response.
Velicia Llewellyn giggles
Vidal Tripsa tries for a subtle "shh".
You: please pace your questions! let's try not to overwhelm the text chat!
Khannea Suntzu: Wegmans zuigt
TaraLi Jie: The Neaderthals have a much better interface for their version of SL.
SF Writer: :)
Anshi Kyong is Offline
You: Also, if anybody *objects* to being included in the chat log that we'll post, please IM me.
You: otherwise, the log will be up on our website, http://extropiacore.net, by tomorrow morning
Khannea Suntzu: Hang up a sign at the entrance "chatlogs will be posted online"
Michel Manen is Online
London Spengler is Offline
You: good idea, Khannea -
You: OK, Rob, ready to go?
Anshi Kyong is Online
Sat Batra munches on a bag of popped lag
London Spengler is Online
SF Writer: Yes, indeed!
Stainless Weatherwax: Sys, gotta go - rl. Please include me in the log, apologies. bye
SF Writer: I'm delighted to be here. We're talking a bit about my novel ROLLBACK, which is on the Hugo ballot.
SF Writer: It's my 17th book, and deals with radical life prolongation -- the first people to undego that.
You: Rob, you speak of the coming decades as "the age of miracle and wonder" - yet seem to disagree with the notion of a technological singularity -
You: can you nuance your views of what's ahead for us?
SF Writer: Yeah, I was on a panel about that with Vernor Vinge at a conference in Florida last month.
Movies1963 Beck: only the rich will have their lives prolonged
SF Writer: See, I like Ray Kurzweil and all, but there's a fair bit of arm-waving. Moore's law isn't coming to an end, he says, because, well,
Extropia DaSilva: I am rich, so I am alright, Jack.
SF Writer: somehow we'll find a way around the liminitations.
SF Writer: And so on.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods -
Dale Innis: Well, we always have so far. :)
CyFishy Traveler: Moore's Law?
You: So you see Kurzweil as presenting a "best case"?
SF Writer: Moore's Law: computing power doubles every 18 m onths.
CyFishy Traveler nods.
SF Writer: Dale, that's like saying we've managed to go faster and faster every year so the speed of light can't be a barrier.
Dale Innis nods. "Yep, it'ssimilar". :)
Jamie Marlin: There are LONG periods of technological stasis in the historical record... why assume that progress will continue?
SF Writer: The singualarity metaphor is very delieberately taken from astrophysics (as applied to black holes). It DOES have to have physical
Khannea Suntzu: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moore's_law
SF Writer: basis, even if it gives rise to a virtual world.
Extropia DaSilva: No. Moore's law recognises the fundamental barriers put in place by quantum physics and relativity.
Extropia DaSilva: Anyway, it is strictly speaking a record of the past, not a law like the law of thermodynamics.
SF Writer: Moore's Law, as coined in 1965 by Gordon Moore, said nothing about those things. But, let's tur it around, and ask this: why
CyFishy Traveler: Superconductors reached a certain point where they couldn't go any warmer.
SF Writer: do we believe that magical new techologies will emerge that will make it possible to circument the limitations on Moore's law? Isn't that just an act of faith?
Khannea Suntzu: Let the guy talk
Peer Infinity: "The number of Elvis impersonators doubles every year. If we extrapolate this trend forwards, we can see that in a few decades, over a million percent of the world's population will be Elvis impersonators."
Dale Innis: "Magical" sort of slants the question. :)
Peer Infinity: oops, sorry...
SF Writer: Very specifically, Mooore's Law deals with the number of transistors you can cram on a set amoung of substrate, and there are
SF Writer: physical limits -- atomic size, quantum issues -- related to that.
SF Writer: The general notion that we will get more powerful computers just because we desire them is wish-fullfilment fantasy, at least in some peoople's eyes.
Dale Innis: But the important form of Moore's law deals with computing power, not gate-density.
SF Writer: (Forgive my losing typing; I'm using my wife'c computer with an unfamiliar, ergonomic keyboard.)
SF Writer: losuy.
SF Writer: Lousy.
You: Rob, do you think the limitations are primarily technological, or are they cultural?
SF Writer: :)
SF Writer: A bit of both.
Dale Innis: Okay, so strawmen aside :) what do you expect will happen, if we don't have a singularity? What instead?
Sat Batra speaks fluent typo.
Dale Innis: ( oops sorry. )
SF Writer: The cultural one of course is the danger that we will blow up before we get to there.
Jamie Marlin: "Past performance is not a guarantee of future returns"
Vidal Tripsa: (Open questions'll come at the end, don't worry, Dale.)
SF Writer: Radical life extension without uploading.
ManqoQhapaqInca Qunhua is Online
Tolo Lucerne: nods
SF Writer: (To answer the question just asked.)
SF Writer: There are far fewer technical hurtles to overcoming senescence than there are to making super-duper computers.
Extropia DaSilva: Bummer. My dreams of autonomy by virtue of aquirng a software brain have gone phut.
You: MINDSCAN and ROLLBACK lay out the two most common scenarios - uploading and life extension -
SF Writer: Now, yes, quantum computing MIHGT give us what we want.
Alesia Markstein: ARe you sure about that?
cypress Rosewood is Online
You: do you think one is more likely, or more likely to be socially accepted?
SF Writer: Yeah, that was my goal: to look a the two basic paradigms. There's no doubt the ROLLBACK one will be the easier public sell.
SF Writer: Nobody would say you stop being you just because you're 100, or 1000, years old.
Extropia DaSilva: Seeing as how we have working models of the cortical column, the basic computational building block of the brain, I think uploading can hardly be 'impossible'.
Khannea Suntzu: Age tax
SF Writer: But moving the instatnatiation of your consciousness to a nonbiological substrate -- hell the general public doesn't even undestand that concept enough to grabpple with it.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods -
Khannea Suntzu: Uploading tax. A.I. tax.
Jamie Marlin: but, Extropia, uploading IS harder to sell to the 'man on the street'
Sat Batra: There'd be all sorts of religious blowback too. talk of a soul and other such superstition
Dale Innis: How important is it that the general public graple with it?
SF Writer: I'm 95% sure will have life prolognation this century ; I'm maybe 20% sure we'll have uploaded concsicounsess.
You: Rob, feel free to pick up on any of those questions you like -
Khannea Suntzu: If the general public doesnt understand >> spanish inquisition on steroids
CyFishy Traveler: Wouldn't you just wind up with a Max Headroom sort of situation--an entity that remembers the same things you do, but goes off in a different direction?
Jamie Marlin: :)) We are a bit chaotic, no?
SF Writer: Depends what you want from the general public, Dale. If you want them to not blow up the building housing the computer that you've uploaded into, I'd say it mattes a great deal. :)
You: *that* is a good point!
Dale Innis: :) a point, certainly
SF Writer: I talk about this a bit in seveal novels: the notion that if you want to upload you have to get rid of the physical terrorists and fantatics.
dandellion Kimban: and how we're going to deal with so many people on the planet? we're ovecrowded at this moment....
Gwyneth Llewelyn remembers that children born in 2000 have an estimated average lifespan of 120 years
Gwyneth Llewelyn: so we ARE getting life extension already.
You: Rob, that's key - how do we do that??
SF Writer: Space travel.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods -
Extropia DaSilva: Oh please. By the time uploading is feasible computers will be massively distributed throughout the environment on dust-sized servers and holographic storage. Cloud computing.
Sat Batra agrees
Vidal Tripsa sighs.
Jamie Marlin: I think uploading has a bigger 'upside' benefit - you can upload and be who you WANT to be. Prolongation is a continuation, not an upgrade
SF Writer: The first thing would be to show the general public that you are nice, friendly people. Sereiously.
Alesia Markstein: Being older doesn't mean you can't change!
SF Writer: The second thing would be to start to educate the public.
You: Along that line- I loved your article, "A Bright Idea For Atheists" -
Velicia Llewellyn nods
Sat Batra: It could also be simply sold as spending more time online. Once VR is full sensory immerive who wouldn't want to stay here other than luddite kooks?
You: http://sfwriter.com/atheists.htm
Dale Innis: Is overpopulation going to be a problem? There's lotsa empty land out there...
You: Are scientists failing at marketing themselves?
SF Writer: Batra, you make my point. As soon as you call the other guys "Luddite kooks" you've lost them.
Alesia Markstein considers taking exception to being referred to as a "luddite kook."
Truthseeker Young: land's not so much the issue, Dale. It's food & water...
Sat Batra grins
Alesia Markstein: Synchronicity!
Khannea Suntzu: My statement stands where I call the disparty between rich and poor one of the prima existential risks.
SF Writer: No, if you don't think you'll ever need them, then fine. But if you think that having them on board is useful, name calling doesn't do it.
SF Writer: :)
Jamie Marlin: food production... waste products....
Velicia Llewellyn smiles and waves back at Truth
Sat Batra: I usually use much more incendiary language.
Tolo Lucerne: WOuldn't augmentation be a better solution, sees uploading as more of an US thing than a ME thing. I doubt continuity.
Extropia DaSilva: Radical life extenstion requires fine control over matter, which also gets us molecular nanotechnology. So, we can comfortably accomodate 10 billion.
SF Writer: Among friends, that's fine. But there ARE political issues, and those are one with more delicate tools.
You: Rob's description of the impact of the Flying Sphagetti Monster reminded me a *lot* of the attitudes of griefers against *us* -
Seven Shikami is Online
SF Writer: I had dinner with Marvin Minsky a while ago, and he said he had the perfect answer to diminished resources.
Dale Innis: ooo what what?
You: oh?
Sat Batra: diminished humanity?
Vidal Tripsa sits up in her seat..
SF Writer: He said, just re-engineer the human body so that it's only 10 cm tall, and we can esasily accommodate a few hundred million of us.
Extropia DaSilva: And, with uploading+ computronium, our local resources give us a population of 10 billion for every star in ten thousand galaxies, so we should be OK for space for a while yet.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
Vidal Tripsa: Heheh.
SF Writer: "Diminished humanity" in a very literal sense.
Velicia Llewellyn: Heeeee!
Alesia Markstein: LOL
Gwyneth Llewelyn: lol SF
dandellion Kimban: going tiny
Dale Innis: :) Vonnegut's tiny Chinese.
Khannea Suntzu: Barbie doll sized?
Sat Batra: man that's really going to give guys issues about penis size...
TaraLi Jie always thought real recycling was the answer to diminished resources - as very little of what's has been mined has actually *LEFT* earth permanently.
SF Writer: And, if the avatar's in SL are any indication, with Barbie doll measurements, too. :)(
Sophrosyne Stenvaag cracks up
Dale Innis: But the energy content has been used up....
Tolo Lucerne: lol, read an article in Nation Geographic yesterday about tiny people and thought the same thing.
Velicia Llewellyn giggles
Athena Schroeder is Online
Kamilah Hauptmann is Offline
TaraLi Jie: Energy's cheap - von neuman solar collectors in orbit - at least until we Dyson Sphere the sun.
SF Writer: It's true: species dwarfism happens all the time in constrained enriovoments.
Dale Innis: ( So what besides life extention (probably) and uploading (maybe)? How about asteroid mining? Will we do that? )
Gwyneth Llewelyn sadly has to abandon this fascinating discussion — thanks for hosting it, Soph :)
SF Writer: Yes, Dale, I think we will, precisely when it's cheaper to go get it than it is to mine it here.
Khannea Suntzu: Gods please asteroids mining yes
Dale Innis: Which is when? :)
SF Writer: It's not a technically difficult thing, just one that has't made it's econoic case yet.
Alesia Markstein: When we've mined everything there.
Michel Manen is Offline
Alesia Markstein: I mean here.
You: Dale, watch the commodity markets :)
SF Writer: Twenty-five years after we return to the moon.
Extropia DaSilva: Bye Gwyn dear.
SF Writer: As to when we'll return to the moon --
SF Writer: ?
Sat Batra wonders when we'll begin mining our own waste (garbage dumps)
You: Rob, do you think a need for resources will drive a second space age?
CyFishy Traveler: There are plans as I recall...
Alesia Markstein is alarmed that she was thinking the same thing as Sat Batra.
Extropia DaSilva: Stig of the Dump was ahead of the curve when it came to using garbage tips.
SF Writer: I think that living-space and quality of life might do it as easily.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods -
SF Writer: Everyone's a porn-star in zero-G.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
Vidal Tripsa snorts.
Velicia Llewellyn giggles
Alesia Markstein: Oy.
You: an end to the bra and the necktie!
SF Writer: The elderly would do just fine on the moon in 1/6 G; no need to worry about falling.
Jamie Marlin: :))
SF Writer: You fall, but it doesn't break anything.
Vidal Tripsa: Hmm!
SF Writer: I had a lunar retirment colony in MINDSCAN.
Alesia Markstein: Senior colonies on the moon? OMG.
Extropia DaSilva: The lack of oxygen might be a trife bothersome.
SF Writer: The only trick is getting peoole there.
Alesia Markstein: But could the take the accel?
Dale Innis: Balloons.
dandellion Kimban: lol
SF Writer: DaSilva, do you really think the other things you're talking about are possible, but not manufacturing oxygen on the moon? The future doesn't ahppen one a ta time.
SF Writer: Space elevator.
Truthseeker Young: well, and what about things like bone-density loss in low-g environments? that would seem to have a pretty dire long-term effect on colonisation, no?
Eden Toll is Online
Alesia Markstein: Spacel elevator! There's one here, you know.
Jamie Marlin: I think we are a long way from closed cycle environmental controls
Sophrosyne Stenvaag grins
SF Writer: Specially padded, gel-filled "coffins" for transpaort.
Sat Batra: Other than autonomous drones to gather resources I see no need for space travel. Plus the meat isn't made for space. Like WS Burroughs said, we have to get rid of our bodies for that kinds of expansion.
Jamie Marlin: ...so feeding them is an issue too.
Vidal Tripsa: I wonder, though, if there's some comparison between uploading and adopting a new brand of humanism, and being born to new colonies. After all, surely Lunar humans would grow to be quite different to Terran ones, in time.
Extropia DaSilva: Space belongs to robots! Send the Mind Children to space, and leave the meatbags until we can figure out how to process their matter into stuff that does some useful computations;)
Alesia Markstein: I read a book called Gradisil that suggested riding the electromagnetic fields to orbit.
Vidal Tripsa frowns.
SF Writer: The meat isn't made for Antarctica or Everest. But the meat has desires.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods in agreement -
Harper Beresford is Offline
Dale Innis: ( There's a bumper sticker ! )
TaraLi Jie thinks we'll do all of it - and more.
Extropia DaSilva: True.
Sat Batra: To quote Mick jagger...
Sat Batra chuckles
Jamie Marlin: *My* meat wants to go.... but there is room for the robots too.
TaraLi Jie: Some will upload, some will download, some will reload...
SF Writer: Just your meat, Jamie?
SF Writer: :)
Jamie Marlin: lol!
SF Writer: We do say it has a mind of its own!
Nicki Petrichor is Offline
Naimya Price is Online
Sat Batra: the phallic symbolism of rockety made explicit!
Jamie Marlin: All of me, but I would hate to leave her behind
Velicia Llewellyn: This meatbag would love a trip up :P
Extropia DaSilva: Jamie, dear, you are a mind child. You are software life that only temporarily needs a primary installed in a meatbag.
SF Writer: Seriously, I think we're going to see several different options, and that there's a place for everybody.
You: Rob, one of your recurring themes seems to be inter-generational relationships - do you think that cultural evolution is slow enough that those distances can be crossed?
Alesia Markstein: INcluding those who don't want to go.
Jamie Marlin: I like the physical me... I enjoy her company.
Vidal Tripsa: "Mind child"?
SF Writer: Alesia. Excactly.
Vidal Tripsa: Oh, sorry, so much chat I'm losing who said waht. Beg pardon.
SF Writer: The problem with a lot of extropian thinking, if I may, is that
SF Writer: it misses out on how evolotuion actually works.
Terence McKenna is Online
Alesia Markstein sits up attentively.
SF Writer: It propsoes that there's ONE future for humanity.
You: ahh...
Velicia Llewellyn nods
Extropia DaSilva: Hans Moravec's term for robots with human + intelligence levels. I extend it to include all sentient technological life, avatars run by AI included.
Vidal Tripsa: Hmm!
Sat Batra cackles
Alesia Markstein: YES!!!
SF Writer: It's a branching bush, whether it's biological evolution or technological.
Dale Innis: That's certainly wrong, I agree.
Alesia Markstein: Divergence.
Vidal Tripsa: Curious.
SF Writer: There will be niches that will be filled by humanity's descendants of various types.
CyFishy Traveler: I thought the point of Extropia was which branch we pick.
Dale Innis: Schismatrix :)
Jamie Marlin: But we DON'T pick, CyFishie.....
SF Writer: But thee's an implciit assupption in some of the literature that it will be picked for everybody.
Khannea Suntzu offers extropia a branch to pick her teeth with
Jamie Marlin: We try them ALL
SF Writer: One sizes doesn't fit all.
Nepherses Amat is Offline
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods emphatically
Extropia DaSilva: Yep. Extropia means an ever evolving society in which people form the social groups they prefer.
Dale Innis: Yeah, it's always tempting to waqnt to choose for every one :)
Alesia Markstein: Right.
SF Writer: And if you leave people in the current stage, you
SF Writer: do well to be on good terms with them.
Nepherses Amat is Online
Eidur Kappler is Online
Sat Batra: I see Extropy's fault inthinking that evolution is somehow equal and maybe democratic. Clarks Childhoods end tends to adress major change more realistically in that a few transcend while the bulk are recycled.
Extropia DaSilva: Golden Rule?
Sat Batra shrugs
Zha Ewry smiles at Dale, which works, until someoen else decides to do the chosing
Dale Innis: mmhmm
Jamie Marlin: Picking for everyone else, because it suits US, seems to be a basic human error.
Alesia Markstein: Too true.
CyFishy Traveler: Indeed.
Dale Innis: Democratic evolution, Sat, is something to strive for.
SF Writer: Yes, but we want to be transhuman, Jamie. :)
Anshi Kyong is Offline
SF Writer: IDIC.
CyFishy Traveler: But we have greater freedom than ever to choose for ourselves.
Vidal Tripsa: "IDIC"?
Sat Batra sees a techno-fascist future.
Dale Innis: I don't *want* most minds to be lost.
Zha Ewry: I think any one commiunity imposing on any other is just a sbad
SF Writer: Star Trek: Infinite diversity in infinite combinations.
You: Sat, I see that as no different from fundamentalist Christianity - the chosen will be saved and the rest damned -
Zha Ewry: No reason to assume it's one way
Khannea Suntzu: Progress/civilization is in fact almost the same as increase in privacy.
TaraLi Jie: Considering current pop culture - it'll become something handled by fads - "Oh, darling - we *SIMPLY* must follow this season's mode of self-evolution!" "Mommy, why can't I genegineer myself? All the cool kids are growing tentacles!"
SF Writer: SS: YES!
Alesia Markstein: Freedom - in the technologicaly & economically advanced world.
SF Writer: Exactly!
Jamie Marlin: :) Well... it will be a long time before the universe is full. There is room for everyone until then, surely?
Vidal Tripsa: Well-put, Soph!
Dale Innis: :) If we work hard to make it go that way, Jamie. :)
Extropia DaSilva: When did we beging being transhuman? As soon as we picked up a rock and used it to increase the potency of our physical strength? If not then, when exactly? Has it not happened yet?
TaraLi Jie: Ever done the math, Jamie, on how long a long time really is?
Sat Batra: Not much different than a gazillionish eggs being laid so a few fish can grow up.
Terence McKenna: Locally, universe is full in no time.
Zha Ewry nods as SS "The assumption that one set of choices is apriori better, seems dangerous"
SF Writer: Jamie: Yes. Space travel is about opening up possibilities.
Sat Batra: Don't get me wrong, the unnatural aspects of transhumanism are what draws me to it
You: Rob, your next books are going to deal with the conscious awakeing of the Web?
SF Writer: That's right. I've just finished the first one, WAKE.
You: ooo :)
Vidal Tripsa: Hmm!
You: can you give us a teaser?
SF Writer: It will be serialized in ANALOG, starting this fall, and our in hardcover in the spring of 2009.
Alesia Markstein sadly contemplates the length of her "to read" list.
Malburns Writer is Online
SF Writer: World Wide Web gains sufficient complexity for an immergent consciousness to appear.
SF Writer: emergent.
Zha Ewry: Well, space travel might be, if we cna get more than a fe kilograms out of the suns gravity well. We've managed to do that for *how many* grams?
Extropia DaSilva: Um what unnatural events? We only have things that contradict our own prejudices of what is right and natural. But the REAL decider of that is the laws of physics and its final authority MUST be yielded to.
Terence McKenna: Why would you need to get out more than a few kg?
SF Writer: I'm calling it "William Gibson meets William Gibson."
CyFishy Traveler: "Is there a God?" "There is now . . . "
Vidal Tripsa: Heheh.
Alesia Markstein: LOL
SF Writer: The former wrote NEUROAMANCER.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag lughs
You: *laughs
SF Writer: The latter wrote THE MIRACLE WORKER, about Helen Keller.
You: aha....
Sat Batra: Nice chatting with y'all again. I am going to play Real Life now.
Extropia DaSilva: And Idoru! I loved that story.
Sat Batra waves
You: oh, intriguing -
Vidal Tripsa: Hmm.. Rei was an AI, though.
SF Writer: I'm trying to come up with a synthesis in which those who want to maintain their basic humanity can do so in the face of superintelligence.
Extropia DaSilva: Yep.
Alesia Markstein: Their own?
You: that's one of the future's big questions -
TaraLi Jie: Is humanity connected to intelligence?
You: how biological time and internet time can coexist -
SF Writer: It is aware of it, but not connected to it in a jacked-in sense.
SF Writer: Yes, those different timescales: biological and electronic -- they're fascinating to play with.
TaraLi Jie rather considers a large mass of human beings he is sure would not pass the Gom Jabbar...
Alesia Markstein: So ignore it. Ppl do that all the time.
Dizzy Banjo: great radio station for this conversation : http://207.200.96.225:8022/listen.pls
Dizzy Banjo: :D
Terence McKenna: 6-9 orders of magnitude speed difference is impossible to gap.
Dale Innis: I love stories of humans and transcends interacting
SF Writer: Terence, is it?
Jamie Marlin: I suppose that the internet could *chhose* to run on biological time, as a courtesy to the non-uploaded?
Vidal Tripsa: Frankly I'd find this chat alone one limiting factor for my biological-digital communication.
Terence McKenna: I can't interact meaningfully with statues.
SF Writer: Maybe. I don't know. We'll see. We're not hardwired to deal with those speed differences, but no one goes insane when they see lighningt befor hearing thunderr.
Shava Suntzu is Offline
SF Writer: Sure you can. You cna't talk to them, but you can protect them.
Jamie Marlin: It is hard to develop relationships without some sort of interaction, though... diferent timescale would tend to be isolated
Terence McKenna: Why would you want to protect statues? They're primitive.
Athena Schroeder is Offline
Tolo Lucerne: lol, if SL is an indicator if the internet intelligence, the lag will make it a moron.
Zha Ewry: DIfferent tinmescales, and different goals would seem inherent
Vidal Tripsa: I don't like where that's heading...
SF Writer: You can do various things on other time scales. It's hard, but that's like saying we'll never be able to deal with relativistic travel. You go away, you come back, and damn dirty apes are in charge. It's easy. :)
Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs
Extropia DaSilva: Ah, if we have uploading we almost certainly have self-replicating nanobots. So we can easily convert the mass of the biosphere into smart matter and run all the humans as uploads, with the event of their destruction and resurrection erazed from memory. They can live in ignorant bliss, Jamie love.
Alesia Markstein is appalled by the idea.
SF Writer: DaSilva: do you have any moral compunctions about that scenario?
Vidal Tripsa: Yyikes.
Dale Innis: "Primitive" hardly means "morally irrelevant"!
Jamie Marlin: In an iffinite universe, you might CHOOSE to run slow - so that light speed is no barrier
Terence McKenna: 3 kYrs overnight, even for 6 orders of magnitude difference. Where's the common ground?
Jamie Marlin: There is plenty of time left - why hurry?
Sophrosyne Stenvaag applauds Dale
Extropia DaSilva: It happened two minutes ago, Alesia. You are now that upload, and it feels no different.
Terence McKenna: You can't run slow -- you have to keep up with the Joneses.
SF Writer: Terence, everyone understands the issue. Some of us refuse to thow up our hands and say it's not solvable. :)
Zha Ewry: That implies that anyone who choses not to, shoudl be ignored
Jamie Marlin: If the Jones run slow> Why not?
Extropia DaSilva: That is what I am saying, yes.
Zha Ewry: Which, is problematic, if they are moral actors, worthy of thier own rights
Dale Innis: Well, the ones that run fast do get to write much more of the story :)
You: Rob, do you find that these conversations always tend to Us and Them?
Alesia Markstein: Scale ... not everything interesting *happens* at the top of the scale.
You: and what do we do about Them anyway?
Zha Ewry: Depends, if they get to write small portions, at greater intervals Dale
Jamie Marlin: Dale - but THEY are stuck in one measly solar system. Poor things!
SF Writer: I had an (in-partr) extropian novel called STARPLEX 12 years ago, and it dealt with a billion-years-old houman who had sigifnicant interest in dealing with the part of himself that existed for a brief moment before uploading.
Terence McKenna: Either game theory or iterated evolutionary theory says the statues are dead meat.
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Dale Innis: Terence: so?
Zha Ewry: The slow, stready ones, may end up being the only ones who hang around to annotate the burn outs of some of the fast, brilliant ones
SF Writer: SS: Yes, and that's scary. Because there's not a single extropian in congress. The implicit assumption is that WE can outwit them, but there is no historical basis for tha tbelief.
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SF Writer: It shouldn't be US versus THEM.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods -
Velicia Llewellyn nodsnodsnods
CyFishy Traveler: Why is death seen is something that must be avoided at all possible costs?
Terence McKenna: There's always an us and them in a highly diverse ecosystem. Some win, some lose. Life goes on.
Zha Ewry: Indeed SS, the historical model, would imply that the vast majority of people will be deeply conservative and reactive, and politics will follow
TaraLi Jie: It's not like life is a negative-sum, or zero-sum game...
Dale Innis: 'cause life is so interesting? :)
Extropia DaSilva: It is not. It is US becoming THEM and vice versa. All technology trends point to that convergence.
SF Writer: It isn't. People chose euthanasia; pleple chose to die to save their kids; etc.
SF Writer: (death, that is.)
Dale Innis: Yeah, certainly not "all possible costs".
TaraLi Jie does believe we'll beat entropy, eventually.
Extropia DaSilva: If by US you mean all we technological-based life and THEM being humans.
SF Writer: But it is interesting to ask why any individual wnats to live forever.
CyFishy Traveler: And yet all this talk of uploading and prolongation is about avoiding death.
SF Writer: Me, it's to read all the books I want to read, and because I enjoy life.
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SF Writer: But I've met lots of people who have no desire to live forever.
Terence McKenna: Nobody can live forever. But a GYr would be a long time.
Dale Innis: Yeah, not dying is in general desirable. To me at least.
dandellion Kimban: but nothing is fun forever
Extropia DaSilva: No. Uploading is about tranfserring your state vector to your mind child.
CyFishy Traveler: Death gives you a reason to live.
SF Writer: They're not depressed; they just don't think in millennia, let alone decades.
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Vidal Tripsa: Mmm, I'd only want to live forever so long as I as in a friendly and fun place, doing friendly things.
You: *life* gives me a reason to live - and the company of other people
You: Vidal - YES!
SF Writer: SS: yes!
Dale Innis: I don't think death gives me a reason to live in any real sense.
SF Writer: I like company!
John Illios: life would be quite boring alone
Alesia Markstein: As a religious person, the notion of natural immortality makes me uneasy.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag smiles at Rob
Dale Innis: Definitely, Vidal!
SF Writer: Dale, what people normally mean by that is that the ticking clock motivates us to get things done.
John Illios: Ticking clock makes you more productive
Dale Innis: Yeah, I just don't think it's true.
Extropia DaSilva: You know, the goal of transhumanism is NOT immortality but the option to die when it suits you.
SF Writer: You finish university because you have only a finite life; you finally choose someone to marry, beause you're not going to be around forever.
Terence McKenna: In a co-evolutionary system, nothing is forever.
Vidal Tripsa: Ooh, yeah, dedlines..
Zha Ewry: Some urges, would be much less urgent if you had all the time in the world
TaraLi Jie: But if natural immortality is possible - what does that say about God? Have theologians actually *CONSIDERED* that point?
SF Writer: Dale, I can't speak for you.
You: I'd get more done if all my choices weren't zero -sum - if I could learn a language *and* learn to build *and* read *and* run events -
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Alesia Markstein: I doubt it, TaraLi
Velicia Llewellyn nods at Soph
You: and long life gives that -
Dale Innis: :) Did anyone here go to college thinking "I'd better do this now because I'm going to die in 70 years"?
Zha Ewry: Speculative fiction, tends to a deep streak of "old, tired, and decadent, unmotibvated weakly godlike intlligences"
Vidal Tripsa laughs. "Oh yes, Dale."
SF Writer: TaraLi: Theologians have considered just about every scenario. It's worth spedning some time talking to them. They are not all idiots, you know.
Velicia Llewellyn: I'm getting to that point Dale... do it now before it's horribly late...
Jamie Marlin: What does immortality have to do with God? If we can do it, he allowed it (in Christian theology, at least)
Dale Innis: awwwww
Extropia DaSilva: Puh. Their concept of God would barely pass as a Type I intelligence, let alone an Omega-Point event.
Dale Innis: I prefer doing things because they're fun now, not because I'm going to die later. O.o
Velicia Llewellyn sighs
Terence McKenna: You might be immortal already. Cryonics is always an last-resort option. Don't consider anything discussed here a hypothetical.
You: Speaking of theologians - you've suggested that encouraging debate of Intelligent Design also opens us up to looking at Life as Simulation - ?
SF Writer: There are all sorts of intersting versions of God unders discussion.
SF Writer: SS: YEs.
SF Writer: I think it's quite possible we live in a simulated universe.
SF Writer: Second Life, Release 500.
SF Writer: :)
Extropia DaSilva: We do! Linden Labs made it;)
Vidal Tripsa chortles.
Dale Innis: For some value of "simulated"...
Terence McKenna: The incentive seems to be missing. Simulation is never without costs.
Alesia Markstein: Simulated how?
Zha Ewry: Eeek. That explakins why I never get anything done on Wednesday morning
Velicia Llewellyn: lol!
Sophrosyne Stenvaag laughs at Zha!
CyFishy Traveler: lol Zha
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SF Writer: If costs are trivial (and Moore's law says they will be, if you think it's not coming to an end), then the incentive can be nothing more than, it's just fun to create a universe.
Dale Innis: Terence: impossible to know without knowing anything about the next universe up.
Zha Ewry: But. why can't I get a better avatr editor in this simulation?
Dale Innis: Maybe it's really boring there. :)
SF Writer: But if you want to read about the idea taken to the max, look of Frank Tipler's THE PHYSICS OF IMMORTALITY.
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Extropia DaSilva: Well, if information processing is the very basement level of reality, as people like Stephen Wolfram propose, then ipso facto the universe is a simulation.
Jamie Marlin: Doesn't that map pretty well to reincarnation? Real Life is really a huge game of 'World of Warcrat', and only the Buddists hve figured it out.
Terence McKenna: Moore is just a transient artifact of structure shrinking. Costs for a world are never trivial.
SF Writer: McKenna. Why?
Extropia DaSilva: Then again, do not bother with Tipler's book, which relies on an assumption of the Higgs field we now know is incorrect.
Terence McKenna: If the next universe up is very different from here and unknowable, why bother thinking about it?
Vidal Tripsa looks quizzically at Extropia.
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Alesia Markstein: Does it matter if it's a simulation?
You: Does it matter if it was created by God?
You: Potentially....
dandellion Kimban: depends if you can break out of it
Alesia Markstein: SS - yes.
Jamie Marlin: Unkown != Unknowable
Zha Ewry: Dpeends on the membrane's nature
Dale Innis: Terence: why not? You ask funny questions. :)
SF Writer: It doesn't MATTER. And it doesn't MATTER if we evolved from lower forms of life. And it doesn't MATTER if the universe is mostly dark mater/energy.
Extropia DaSilva: No, you cannot break out of it. The universe is all that exists. There is nothing else to break out INTO.
CyFishy Traveler: It is what it is.
dandellion Kimban: then it doesn't matter
SF Writer: But it's COOL to know, and I honestly don't have much patience with the anti-intellectual stance that says it doesn't matter what the actual nature of reality is.
Truthseeker Young: lmao
Velicia Llewellyn nods
Dale Innis: Applause!!
You: yesyes!
Extropia DaSilva: I agree:)
SF Writer: Nothing MATTERS in that sense.
Jamie Marlin: Yay!!!
SF Writer: :)
You: there's the life that's eat/shit/breed/die and the life that's curious about its environment -
SF Writer: I think the greatest human trait is curiosity.
Alesia Markstein: I mean, would it change our day-to-day existence?
John Illios: Where would humanity be if we always took the mentality of not caring about the unknown?
Vidal Tripsa: I think knowing about it would give us more appreciation of our lives.
SF Writer: We wonder about things. It's interesting that our words for thinking and for awe are the same: WONDER.
Dale Innis: It would; alot of my day-to-day existence is here in my head thikning about stuff like that.
Jamie Marlin: Alesia - perhaps. We won't know until we KNOW
Truthseeker Young: only insofar as it changes the way *you* approach the world, Alesia
You: good answer, Truth!
Extropia DaSilva: Humans are defined by their desire and ability to break free from their current limitations. It is what put us in the sky and on the surface of the Moon.
SF Writer: That is, no coincidentally, the title of my third book in the web-consciousness trilogy.
Zha Ewry: Exactly Truth
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Alesia Markstein: Right, Truths.
Zha Ewry: The moment, it affects your choices, it matters
SF Writer: DaSilver. No arugment there.
Zha Ewry: Which is why.. people get so.. snargly, about religious assumptions, because people do act on them
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Extropia DaSilva: You can call me Extropia, hon. No need to be formal and use my last name.
Zha Ewry: if they were merely, curiousities, people would be far less up tight
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SF Writer: Extrpoia, apologies.
Extropia DaSilva: :)
SF Writer: I thought your first name was a title/honorific in this context.
Zha Ewry: The moment, they become a basis for action, memes, become much more important
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You: yeah, we've done all the "in Extropia" jokes :)
SF Writer: Anyway, my own thoughts on what makes us special: http://sfwriter.com/hymars.htm
Vidal Tripsa laughs.
Dale Innis: ( is jes trying to confuse us! )
Suki Anadyr: You think we need to be 'enlightened' to understand reality? A clarity of universal-perception; or an actual method of empirical study?
Extropia DaSilva: Ah no. They named this place in my honour. Or so I like to think, being so vain and all;)
SF Writer: By the way, you can call me "S"
SF Writer: :) :) :)
Zha Ewry gives Extrropia D, a little look
Alesia Markstein: Zha - Some religious ideas are seriously annoying. Others are worthwhile.
You: a friend was wondering if you pronounce it "ssssssf" or "ssissiff" :P
TaraLi Jie worries about Zha being a New Shaker...
SF Writer: Alesia, yes.
Extropia DaSilva: Gaze away, hon. I know what eye candy I am.
Vidal Tripsa laughs.
Dale Innis: Is this the Book Club meetig now? :)
Jamie Marlin giggles
Vidal Tripsa: Nope, Dale. :P
You: We'll move on to the book club discussion at 1:30?
SF Writer: I'm buddies with two of the Vatican astronomers. These are bright, intelligent, way-well-read guys.
SF Writer: Okay.
Extropia DaSilva: (Yeah, ok, not as sweet as you sis. But who is?)
SF Writer: It's easy to assume that every religious person is Jerry Falwell.
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Zha Ewry: As in 18th century, luddite sort?
TaraLi Jie: Like the hero of Clarke's (RIP) "The Star"?
Zha Ewry: Nah
Terence McKenna: Do you know Amara Graps, S?
You: (which means, if you've read ROLLBACK, stick around)
SF Writer: TaraLi: yes!
Alesia Markstein: We're not. Especially when we're Jewish.
SF Writer: Exactly.
Dale Innis is deeply religious. :)
SF Writer: They're both Jesuits, as it happens.
SF Writer: Now, I don't agree with them, but I *respect* them.
Zha Ewry is softly skeptical, of all viral memes of the religious sort, including some which are rooted in science, not god
CyFishy Traveler: Some religious people are still scientists. . .. they just see themselves in the business of figuring how how God did that.
SF Writer: They know their science, and they do think about big questions.
TaraLi Jie: *nods*
Extropia DaSilva: Hey, did they cryogenically freeze old Clarke's brain? I hope so, that mind was too precious to be left to rot:(
Dale Innis: We can recreate it from the writings. ;)
SF Writer: Extropia, no. He's been burried.
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SF Writer: In Sri Lanka.
Jamie Marlin: *sigh*
Zha Ewry nods at CyF.. just.. a few limits when you take some things as not subject to examination
Vidal Tripsa: Not everyone wants to live forever! :)
SF Writer: It was his choice.
Alesia Markstein: See, and there's another example of what SF was saying about alarming the mundanes.
Kanomi Pikajuna: Robert, in your book how do you handle the ethics of life extension? Clearly it cannot be available to everyone in the world, if it is coming so quickly?
SF Writer: I, in fact, DO want to live forever.
Extropia DaSilva: Oh well. We will just have to resurrect him by doing a rollback on the computations running the Universe 1.0 simulation.
Alesia Markstein: LOL
Zha Ewry: Or.. possibly, assumes, that there are other ways to gather up his state vector
Vidal Tripsa groans @Extropia.
SF Writer: Kanomi, hi. Yes. that's the big issue. In the book, it's in the hands of the rich --and I think that's wrong.
Jamie Marlin: I want to live forever till I change my mind.
Terence McKenna: Live forever, or die trying.
Alesia Markstein: I'd only want to live forever if I could be assured of health and comfort.
SF Writer: In fact, as a Canadian, I framed it as a parable about socialized medicine.
Dale Innis: (Paging the grasshopper dude...)
Extropia DaSilva: I want to die tommorrow. That will be my answer every day.
Sophrosyne Stenvaag nods at Dale
SF Writer: Monetary wealth is not a good way to determine who is of most value, in my humble option.
Zha Ewry: Health comfort, and some way of dealing with the possibility of long term boredome
Truthseeker Young nods at Zha
Kanomi Pikajuna nods, "I guess I shall have to read it then to find out how you solve that problem." :)
Alesia Markstein: Hopefully there will always be something new, Zha.
You: S, in your interview with SCI FI Weekly, you analogized the Canadians to your Neanderthals -
dandellion Kimban: but which way is good?
You: http://www.scifi.com/sfw/interviews/sfw15424.html
SF Writer: SS: Yes, I did. Atheists, environmentalists, pacifists, willing to give uup personal liberty for colective security. Canadian through and through.
You: Cross-border differences factor a lot in your work, don't they?
Jamie Marlin: Why are you assuming that it is a one-time-only choice? Live forever implies 'die when you are done living.
SF Writer: They do.
Zha Ewry: Alesia, I hope so too, but the slightly skeptical streak of my personality does not desire to be wowbagger
SF Writer: I'm a duela US-Canadian citizen, I live near the border, and I bop across it all the time. The differences fascinate me.
Extropia DaSilva: No it does not. Live forever is incompatible with dying.
Alesia Markstein: LIke what, SF?
Terence McKenna: Once information-theoretic death strikes, you're truly dead.
Extropia DaSilva: But, as I said, transhumanists seek indefinite lifespans, that end when it is convenient for the individual. A choice.
SF Writer: As I said, per capita, Canada is more atheisitic, more envrionmental, more socialist, etc.
Khannea Suntzu: Canada is less imperialized
SF Writer: We believe you can retain your heritagle and still be a Canadian.
SF Writer: Yes, excactly.
You: ahh, interesting -
SF Writer: It's a different model.
SF Writer: And it has merit.
You: what about attitudes toward tech and social change?
Alesia Markstein: Ah, yes.
SF Writer: Not to say ...
SF Writer: The best answer to that SS, is something John Ralston Saul said:
SF Writer: Americans think of their founding documents as holy write; Canadians think of them as works in progress.
Vidal Tripsa: Hmmm!
You: oh, *interesting*!
Alesia Markstein: Hmm, I must be a Canadian then.
Dale Innis: "Holy Writ"s a little strong, I thikn. :) We're just real careful....
SF Writer: We're like the engineers McCoy decried in STAR TREK: THE MOTION PICTURE: We love to change things.
Vidal Tripsa giggles. "WikiCanada? I like."
SF Writer: Dale, it's a slogan; it has to be strong. :)
You: or this place as Our Virtual Canada :P
Vidal Tripsa: Heheh.
Dale Innis: I once introduced a proposal in the Agora Nomic to send greetings to Canada as a fellow Nomic. :)
You: ok, let's wrap -
SF Writer: I'm not advocating the Canadian way -- or any other -- but most Western coutnries are much more like Canada than they are like the US.
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Alesia Markstein: No wonder I keep thinking about emigrating.
SF Writer: And it's interesting that so many of them converged on similar solutions.
CyFishy Traveler: I almost wonder if the reason Canada and other socialist countries are more atheistic than the US is because they don't need religion to feed their hungry and house their homeless. They have governments for that sort of thing.
SF Writer: Well said, CT!
SF Writer: :)
Alesia Markstein: As if they were actually succeeding ...
Tolo Lucerne: No, just higher taxes....
You: SF, do you think that convergence creates pressures on the US to be *more* of an outlier?
You: More of "Jesusland" as the cartoon map has it?
SF Writer: No, I think the US will come around. You guys are just slow to change -- but then, you've got a lot of inertia.
Suki Anadyr: ALOT OF BS TOO
Vidal Tripsa laughs as she tries to imagine the British position here..."
Suki Anadyr: yeah caps
John Illios: too much Bush
SF Writer: I didn't say that.
CyFishy Traveler: It explains why the Religious Right is allied with the Republicans....they're afraid of the competition.
SF Writer: I didn't mention Bush.
SF Writer: Just sayin'.
SF Writer: :)
Sophrosyne Stenvaag grins
John Illios: I live overseas because of him
Truthseeker Young: I think we're just adolescent, as a nation. We've gron up comfy on mommy & daddy's credit cards, but now panic is setting in as we start to realize what 'growing up' really means
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SF Writer: You've got a chance to make the future this November, guys.
Truthseeker Young: *grown
Vidal Tripsa: Nice, Truthseeker. Nice.
Alesia Markstein: How'd Canada get so far ahead, then?
Tolo Lucerne: lol, yeah, right, you see our choices.....
Suki Anadyr: who's going to make the future? barack?
You: OK, thanks everyone! If you've read ROLLBACK and want to talk about *the book* specifically, please join us in the reading lounge directly ahead by the entrance!
Alesia Markstein: We're the same age!
Khannea Suntzu: Like I said, canada isnt imperaialized.
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Alesia Markstein: Can we come even if we haven't read the book yet?
You: Extropia Book Club meets every Sunday at 1
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Vidal Tripsa: I hope so - I, sadly, only got halfway through by last night.
You: next Saturday, our Salon Spotlight Guest is David Brin
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SF Writer: VD: I'll tell you how it ends. ;)
Extropia DaSilva: Oo.
Rickard Steuben: but Canada was a very important part of the British Empire
Dale Innis curls up and dozes, listening to the voices of her friends an' neighbors.
SF Writer: Oooh, Dave Brin! My pal!
You: and then we're partying all night for Yuri's Night, the celebration of human spaceflight!
Truthseeker Young: hey!! no spoilers, SF!!
Alesia Markstein: Oh, maybe better not.
Jamie Marlin regretfully has to leave. Bye all!
Suki Anadyr: if you read the cliff notes you can stand outside the window and watch^^
Extropia DaSilva: Hey Soph! Try and get Charles Stross!
Vidal Tripsa laughs.
Truthseeker Young: we have a strict rule about that
Khannea Suntzu giggles watching extropia choke on her champaign
Alesia Markstein: I do have a 5:00 meeting.
You: Thanks, SF, for a fantastic discussion!
CyFishy Traveler: Been quite the discussion. Thank you, SFW
Alesia Markstein: Yes, thank you!
SF Writer: A pleasure!
Vidal Tripsa claps heartily.
Rickard Steuben: i mean, to say it's not imperialized to ignore its history and underlying way of thinking
SF Writer: And, again, sorry I was late!
Kanomi Pikajuna: Thank you for coming Robert!
Extropia DaSilva: That was wonderful!
Velicia Llewellyn snuggles Dale and rubs her shoulders :)
Dale Innis: Applause!!
SF Writer: In Canada, it's already the future ...
dandellion Kimban app,lauds
Dale Innis: mmmmmmmm
Tolo Lucerne: I've lived in VancouvorHaving lived in Vancouver, Winnipeg and Toronto and saw not reason to move there.. hehe
Boc Cryotank: Yes. That was excellent. Thanks for coming.
Alesia Markstein: Come by again some time!
SF Writer: Hee hee hee.
TaraLi Jie: ♪♫♥ Applauds!!! ♥♫♪
SF Writer: My pleasure!
SF Writer: Thanks all!